Return to Transcripts main page

Isa Soares Tonight

Prince Harry Loses Security Appeal; Aid Ship Bound For Gaza Catches Fire After Alleged Israeli Drone Attack Off The Coast Of Malta; U.S. Job Market Defies Expectations Despite Trump Tariffs; U.S. Urges India And Pakistan To Show Restraint; Trump Considering Labeling Gangs "Enemy Combatants"; Michelin-Starred Chef Looks To Her Roots For Inspiration; Rwandan Author Retraces Her Escape From Genocide As Teen. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired May 02, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Christina Macfarlane in for ISA SOARES TONIGHT. A royal

rift. Prince Harry says his father no longer speaks to him, but he hopes to reconcile after losing his latest court battle over security. Then an aid

ship bound for Gaza catches fire after an alleged drone attack two months to the day since Israel stopped all aid from entering Gaza. I speak with

the World Food Program.

And stronger-than-expected, the U.S. job market stands resilient despite Trump tariff chaos. What it means for the health of the American economy.

But first, the rift between Prince Harry and the royal family appears to be far from over. The Duke of Sussex today losing a legal challenge over his

security arrangements in the U.K.

His taxpayer-funded security was downgraded after he gave up his royal duties back in 2020. A judge today ruling Prince Harry's appeal did not

meet the requirements to overturn the decision. Sitting down for an interview with the "BBC" after that decision, the prince said he's

devastated, adding that the choice to remove his security entitlement impacts him every single day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY CHARLES ALBERT DAVID, DUKE OF SUSSEX: I can't see a world in which I would be bringing my wife and children back to the U.K. at this point, and

the things that they -- the things that they're going to miss is, well, everything. You know, I love my country. I always have done, despite what

some people in that country have done.

So, you know, I miss -- I miss the U.K. I miss parts of the U.K., of course I do. And I think that it's really quite sad that I won't be able to show,

you know, my children my homeland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: When asked about his relationship with his father, King Charles III, the response was far from positive. However, Prince Harry says he's

hoping for a chance at reconciliation with his family. Well, CNN's Max Foster has been following all the details, joins me now live. I mean, Max,

in terms of royal revelations, this was a pretty big landmark moment, and we have been waiting for a response to this from Buckingham Palace, and I

believe you've been speaking to them.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they've just got in touch. Basically saying all of these issues have been examined repeatedly and meticulously

by the courts, with the same conclusion reached on each occasion. What Harry suggesting in this interview, which was completely unexpected. We

were expecting a statement after the court case.

We knew he cared deeply about this court case, and instead, they obviously switched strategy and just decided to do an interview, a half-hour

interview with the "BBC". So, that was, I think, you know, pretty dramatic response in the first place. And it was very emotional. It was very

charged. And he suggesting that this is all a bit of a stitch-up from the establishment.

And his father could have played a bigger role in preventing it by getting out of the way effectively. I think what's pretty clear from the palace

point of view is that the king is head of state, he's head of the Home Office, which made this decision. But constitutionally, there's no way he

could politically have got involved in that process.

He literally stood back from it. Harry just very unhappy with that situation, and effectively saying his father is not talking to him anymore

still, and it's purely down to this security issue. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID: I would love -- I would love reconciliation with my family. I've always -- I've -- you know, there's no point in continuing to fight

anymore. As I said, life is precious. I don't know how much longer my father has, you know, he won't speak to me because of this security stuff.

But it would be nice to -- it would be nice -- it would be nice to reconcile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: I mean, it was almost like there were two things going on here. There's the court case, but there was the emotional response to this, which

is completely tied in, clearly, this security issue as it is at the heart, it's the heart of the rift with his family. How do you think the king will

react to comments like, I don't know how long my father has to live, I want to reconcile with him, if not the wider royal family. How do you think that

will land?

FOSTER: I think the first thing that comes to mind, I mean, there's the personal, you know, I can't speak to how he would personally feel, but I

know that the fact that Harry's gone back to the media and exposed deeply personal relationships and rifts is the last thing that they wanted.

[14:05:00]

MACFARLANE: Yes --

FOSTER: This is their worst nightmare, really. And the whole rift then blows up again and it becomes the overriding talking point around the royal

family when they're trying to do work. Of course, we're all fascinated by all of these family dynamics. But I think Harry, frankly, feels like he's

being punished. He was punished for leaving his royal role, taking his family out of the country.

And this is how they chose to punish him by reducing his security. And at the back of his mind, there's always what happened to Diana, and how he

doesn't want history to repeat itself. He doesn't want his family exposed to the same sort of dangers. I think a lot of, you know, the establishment,

as you call it, saying it's a very -- it was a very simple decision that he's not a working royal.

He wasn't facing a particular threat, therefore, he didn't need to have armed guards. But he does get security. And the king would feel that he was

-- he had to stay out of the situation.

MACFARLANE: It was not a personal decision on their part.

FOSTER: No, but it's clearly, you know, behind the scenes, a massive issue --

MACFARLANE: Yes --

FOSTER: In the family. They're not talking to each other.

MACFARLANE: Well, a big moment we were not expecting, Max --

FOSTER: No, I know --

MACFARLANE: Thanks for breaking it down for us. Now, as conditions on the ground in Gaza grow more dire, an aid ship bound for the besieged territory

issued an SOS early Friday, claiming it was hit by a drone attack off the coast of Malta. The Freedom Flotilla coalition is blaming Israel, but

hasn't provided evidence for that claim.

CNN has reached out to the Israeli military for comment. At the same time, activist Greta Thunberg says she was among those meant to board the damaged

ship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRETA THUNBERG, CLIMATE & HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: This attack caused an explosion and major damage to the vessel, which made it impossible to

continue the mission. And these 30 people are OK, but it is still an emergency. And I was part of a group who was -- support -- supposed to

board that boat today to continue the voyage towards Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, CNN's Jeremy Diamond has more now on what we know about the Gaza-bound vessel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (on camera): The Freedom Flotilla coalition said its ship headed towards Gaza was targeted by an

Israeli drone. The group says that two Israeli drone strikes ripped through the front of this ship, targeting the generators that were located there,

and also leaving a large hole in the ship, which started to take on water.

They then made an SOS call as they were in international waters just off the coast of Malta. The organization posted these videos of the ship in

flames, and in one video, you can actually hear what appears to be the moment of impact.

(EXPLOSION)

DIAMOND: And you can hear that large boom. Now, we cannot independently verify what caused that explosion, what caused the flames on this ship? We

have reached out to the Israeli military for comment, they have declined to comment on this situation. Also notable, an Israeli Air Force C-130 plane,

which can be a transport plane or a surveillance plane, was also observed on flight tracking software just off the coast of Malta, flying at low

altitude in the hours before this attack.

Now, this ship was actually headed to Malta to pick up a number of activists who were going to head to Gaza, including Greta Thunberg, the

prominent climate and human rights activist. And then the ship was going to be headed to Gaza, loaded with aid to try and break what has now been a

two-month blockade by the Israeli military of the Gaza Strip.

Over the course of the last two months, not a single truck of humanitarian aid, food, water, medical supplies has made it into Gaza. The -- as for the

fate of this crew on board, the lead organizer of this Flotilla said that the group was in a process of trying to arrange a small boat to go to that

damaged ship, and to be able to escort them safely back to land. Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Well, staying on the Middle East, one week has now passed since the U.N. World Food Program says it's depleted all of its food stocks for

families in Gaza. The -- excuse me, WFP says more than 116,000 metric tons of food is waiting at aid corridors outside of Gaza ready to be brought in

as soon as the borders reopen.

Well, the U.N. now says the agency expects to cut up to 30 percent of its staff. My next guest is the Palestine Representative and Country Director

of the World Food Program, Antoine Renard, who is joining us here from Jerusalem.

[14:10:00]

Thank you so much for your time. So, we were just saying there, it's been one week since your organization reported that you delivered your last food

stocks to Gaza. Now, presumably, the worst case scenario is here that food has run out. Can you tell us about what you know of what's happening on the

ground, what Palestinian families are facing right now?

ANTOINE RENARD, PALESTINE REPRESENTATIVE & COUNTRY DIRECTOR, WORLD FOOD PROGRAM: Well, thank you for seeing us. In fact, indeed, one week from the

appeal that we've done related to our last -- let's say, stocks that we could actually provide to some of the community kitchen. The situation

actually has further deteriorated.

A week ago, we were still having 180 community kitchen that were still up and running. And we could provide not just the World Food Program, all the

NGOs on the ground, you know, a meal for 1 million people on a daily basis. That, by the way, is perhaps the only meal that they will have. We were

forced already now, since the closure, to stop all our assistance related to the bakeries, and we had to cut 800,000 people to access affordable

bread.

And we also had to stop our assistance to 1.1 million people with food parcels in mid-April. Now, as we speak today, just a week into our appeal,

there's now only 142 kitchens that are still running, and we are already down to 900,000 people. But by the way, what the access sometimes is just a

bit of spaghetti and a broth cube.

If there is any broth cube, that's all people are actually having as a meal. And you have people that are actually having soaring prices. Just the

price of a potato has increased by 1,900 percent. This is not affordable. All the prices are skyrocketing. This is the situation we face.

MACFARLANE: Yes, I mean, what you're saying really is that there is no access to food either. If you have money, if you don't, just -- the supply

just isn't there. I know you're on the ground in Gaza not long ago, are you seeing signs already of acute malnutrition or famine beginning to set in

among the population?

RENARD: You have really an acute malnutrition because people don't access the basic. They don't have access to fresh food, meaning vegetables, fruits

are not on the market. The only vegetable that you have are locally- produced, but they can't actually expand any of the production because seeds cannot enter. Nothing can enter into Gaza --

MACFARLANE: Yes --

RENARD: Since the 2nd of March. But you don't have meat, you don't have fish, you don't have the basics micronutrient for a child that is below

five, for a pregnant woman, all they have is this community kitchen, but they are running so short that practically every day it's like a countdown.

How long --

MACFARLANE: Yes --

RENARD: Are we going to do a countdown for people to access food?

MACFARLANE: So, given the ongoing blockade, I wanted to ask you about this Freedom Flotilla that we were reporting that was attacked by drones

carrying vital aid for Palestinian people overnight. How much would that aid have eased the crisis right now? And is that the type of solution that

is needed now, given that no aid is able to get through that land blockade?

RENARD: But then the solution, we have it, and we proved it during the ceasefire on the 19th of January. Just the World Food Program has 116,000

metric tons in all the different corridors coming from Egypt, coming from Ashdod in Israel, or coming from Jordan. We have all it takes, and we've

proven it during the ceasefire. All the different NGOs on the ground, with all the partners, we have practically three months of food to actually

sustain 2.2 million people into Gaza.

MACFARLANE: But that --

RENARD: This is the solution. The crossings needs to be open.

MACFARLANE: It is the obvious solution, but it is one that is -- does not appear to be moving or possible right now. I don't want to draw you into

the sort of politics of how this is playing out, but I mean, are you surprised by the international response to what is happening in Gaza right

now as regards to the lack of food, the blockade, the lack of pressure being applied to the Israeli government who are being accused here, of

intentionally starving civilians.

RENARD: Well, it is exactly why we need to continue to do the plea. I remember ourselves, this is now 18 months into this war, there has been

various shocks. I remember in May when Rafah incursion happened, I do remember also when we were -- end of December, beginning of January, where

we thought that we were just going to collapse in terms of our assistance.

[14:15:00]

We are now even, let's say, deeper into this, because the population on the ground, they cannot cope anymore. They are actually having, again, bombing

on their heads. They are all asking for a ceasefire to come, for this war to stop. And we have all it takes to actually provide assistance to this

population. This is why we continue our advocacy, and that's why important that we continue to relay, that we know how to serve this population and

civilian population. They do deserve our assistance.

MACFARLANE: And that aid, as you say, is sitting there on the border ready to assist. I know, Antoine, you are returning, I believe, to Gaza next

week. We really wish you the best for that trip, and thank you so much for joining us tonight.

RENARD: Thanks to you.

MACFARLANE: All right, still to come tonight, amid the dark clouds gathering around the U.S. economy, a ray of sunshine. What newly-released

job numbers may mean moving forward. Plus, as tensions simmer between India and Pakistan, U.S. leaders are stepping up pressure to avoid a major

conflict. Those details just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACFARLANE: Now, despite a trade war and growing fears of a recession, the U.S. economy is showing some surprising resiliency, with new, stronger-

than-expected job numbers, 177,000 jobs were added last month, outpacing the 135,000 predicted by economists. The unemployment rate held steady at

4.2 percent, and as of just a few hours ago, though, online shopping got a bit more expensive in the U.S. after a major shipping loophole expired.

That means the prices of items on popular Chinese e-commerce sites like Shein and Temu are likely to rise. Well, on the flip side, Beijing appears

to be softening its tone on trade talks with the U.S. government spokesperson says China is evaluating messages sent by Trump administration

officials.

So, let's go beyond the numbers now with CNN's Vanessa Yurkovich, who is joining us from New York. So, some pretty unexpected good news on the jobs

front. Jobs remaining resilient, really, despite the uncertainty and those recession fears. So, was this a bit of a surprise, do we think?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, that's exactly it. It's a jobs market that is resilient in the face of so much

uncertainty. And this just really extends this incredible streak of jobs growth that we've seen for essentially years now since the pandemic. This

number on your screen there, 177,000 jobs, that is well above what economists expected.

[14:20:00]

They were expecting more like 135,000 jobs added, and then the unemployment rate sticking at 4.2 percent. That is historically low. So, all of this

really painting a picture that the economy and the jobs market seems like it is on solid footing as we start to look forward and anticipate potential

impacts because of President Trump's trade war.

Now, worth noting where the jobs were added for folks at home watching, health care and social services, 58,000 jobs added there, leisure and

hospitality, that's 24,000 jobs added there, people here in the U.S. still spending money on experiences, going out to dine and eat and drink, and

then manufacturing lost jobs, about a 1,000 and federal government saw a decrease in jobs by 9,000.

You can see that on your screen there. That's expected, though, because of the DOGE cuts that have been happening. That's the third straight month of

government jobs that have been lost, 26,000 since the beginning of the year. And that bar chart that you just had up actually shows a revision

that happened in March.

So, initially, the number was closer to 228,000, that was actually revised down. But still, if you look at those two last months there on your screen,

March and April, that's solid jobs growth, that's good jobs growth. However, we know that we've been hearing from small businesses, especially

about the pain that they are experiencing because of these tariffs.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce just sent a letter to the administration asking for small businesses here in the U.S. to be exempt from the tariffs

because they believe it will harm them if they are under these sort of higher tariffs that they simply cannot absorb. And look at markets there on

your screen reacting positively to this news.

Obviously, a strong labor market, a strong economy is what investors want to see as they still try to parse out what these tariffs are going to mean

for the U.S. economy.

MACFARLANE: I suppose you could say it might be the calm before the storm, given we --

YURKEVICH: Yes --

MACFARLANE: May not have seen the full brunt of this tariff war yet. But good news for now, Vanessa, appreciate it. Thank you.

YURKEVICH: Thank you.

MACFARLANE: Now, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney will meet Donald Trump next week for what he calls a difficult but constructive conversation. The

meeting comes in the middle of Trump's tariff war, which has hit Canada hard. Anti-Trump sentiment in Canada helped propel Carney to his election

victory earlier this week.

CNN's Paula Newton is in Ottawa this hour joining us. And yes, I guess there's a strong argument that it was Donald Trump, Paula, who helped Mark

Carney win this election. You know, his campaign was obviously built on Trump's threats over tariffs and over making Canada the 51st state.

And now, the two are set to meet in the Oval Office next Tuesday. I know you were in that press conference earlier today. What was the mood like

about that forthcoming face-to-face?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a man with a plan, as they say, and the plan begins Tuesday in that Oval Office, where he is hoping not to

get Zelenskyy. Now, Christina, make no mistake, as you know very well, this is a man with a central banker pedigree. He will come in fully prepared for

substantive negotiations and detail what he may not be prepared for, though, is the trolling.

And only Donald Trump can know in that Oval Office if he will continue to call Canada the 51st state. It has worked for Carney so far. Now that he is

Prime Minister, though, and not in a campaign, this really does need to get down to business. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK CARNEY, PRIME MINISTER, CANADA: On Tuesday, I had a very constructive call with President Trump, and we agreed to meet next Tuesday in

Washington. Our focus will be on both immediate trade pressures and the broader future economic and security relationship between our two sovereign

nations. My government will fight to get the best deal for Canada.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: So, the best deal for Canada, that also means that this has to, in some way involve a win for Donald Trump. And the Prime Minister knows that.

He called him certainly a very strong negotiator. He did temper up expectations, though, Christina, and said, do not expect a conclave moment

right with white smoke.

There's not going to be any of that. I will say, though, which is what would you call it? You'd call it a bold move, right? He asked King Charles

to come deliver the throne speech on May 27th here in Canada, reminding everyone that King Charles is, in fact, the king of Canada. So, I believe

he is hoping -- and he said as much in his press conference that this really goes to Canadian sovereignty, and if anyone wants to try and take

that away, the king might have something to say about it.

MACFARLANE: Oh, it's a strong card to play, isn't it, Paula? We'll wait to see with bated breath how that Oval Office meeting plays out Tuesday.

Thanks for now, Paula. Now, still to come tonight, the human cost of war. What a seven-year-old child is telling the world about suffering in Gaza.

Plus, the Trump administration is considering a new designation for illegal cartels, and gang members in the U.S., we're live with how this will work,

and if it can withstand legal challenges.

[14:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACFARLANE: Returning now with more on one of our top stories. It's two months to the day since Israel stopped all aid from entering Gaza as the

shattered territory edges closer to famine. CNN has been speaking to a young boy and his mother. Images of the seven-year-old waving for help

following an Israeli airstrike went viral. Well, CNN's Abeer Salman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABEER SALMAN, CNN PRODUCER (voice-over): Seven-year-old Ali cries out for help amid the rubble caused by an Israeli airstrike on a residential

building in Gaza last week, the moment shot by Palestinian journalist Mahmoud Salha(ph) went viral. Days later, CNN spoke to Ali and his mother

at a nearby hospital.

NUHA SHETO (Through Translation): He is all I have now.

ALI FARAJ (Through Translation): I love you mom.

NUHA SHETO (Through Translation): I love you too, my darling son.

SALMAN: The Israeli military said the strike targeted a Hamas militant, and prior measures were taken to minimize risk to civilians.

ALI FARAJ (Through Translation): I was playing with my father, then I fell asleep. After I fell asleep, I don't know what happened, but I fell, I fell

quietly. Then I saw my mom and started waving to her.

[14:30:00]

NUHA SHETO (Through Translation): I went down the stairs to find my son on the rooftop beside with my husband and my daughter Saud torn into pieces. I

told paramedics that my son is alive. Go to him. My husband and my five daughters are gone. My brother and his four children are gone. My little

sister is gone, and my mother and father are gone. Mohammed, my cousin's son is gone. They are all gone.

ABEER SALMAN, CNN PRODUCER: More than 16,000 children have been killed since the war began according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's their fault? They are all children. Where are the human rights? Where are the rights of the children?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: That was Abeer Salman reporting there.

Now, America is urging India and Pakistan to show restraint in the wake of a terror attack in the Indian-administered area of Kashmir last week. The

U.S. Vice President voicing these words of caution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our hope here is that India responds to this terrorist attack in a way that doesn't lead to a

broader regional conflict. And we hope frankly that Pakistan, to the extent that they're responsible, cooperates with India to make sure that the

terrorists sometimes operating in their territory are hunted down and dealt with. That's how we hope this unfolds. We're obviously in close contact.

We'll see what happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, this comes after a gunman killed 26 people last week. The massacre has sparked limited military drills from the nuclear-armed

neighbors and has raised fears of a wider regional conflict.

CNN's Nic Robertson is joining us now from Islamabad. As we were hearing there, Nic, I mean, U.S. efforts towards deescalation are continuing. is

there a feeling there that mediation is working on the ground or is there still a fear that India are going to attack?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: There's a real fear certainly among Pakistani officials that India is going to attack. They

believe that India had planned to attack and was in essence putting in place an attack plan when it flew four fighter jets towards the border the

in Kashmir on early Wednesday.

The four Indian fighter jets didn't cross over and return to a base. The Pakistan Air Force had fighter jets on their side of the border in the air

at the time. And Pakistani officials are interpreting that they say -- they haven't presented or we -- it's not something we can verify, but Pakistani

officials are saying they believe that on that time India was going to perpetrate an attack inside the Pakistan area of Kashmir -- Pakistan

controlled area of Kashmir.

It didn't happen obviously, but that's leading Pakistani officials to believe to come to the conclusion that India still plans an attack. But the

diplomacy that we've seen suddenly noticeably ratchet up actually within later the same day that Pakistan reported this incident, went public with

this incident. We saw the U.S. Secretary of State have calls with the Pakistani Prime Minister, the Indian Foreign Minister.

We saw Pete Hegseth yesterday. the U.S. Secretary of Defense have a phone call with his opposite number in India. And then J.D. Vance's message there

that you just heard that was a diplomatic message to both sides essentially to calm it down. And the read in Pakistan is that the U.S. is acting in

good faith towards both sides, that their policy is positive towards both sides, and that this isn't -- this is something that Pakistan feels

positive about. And they feel positive as well that other countries are trying to help with diplomacy.

You know, today the ambassadors of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait all went in and met with the foreign minister here all came out with

the same message talking about, you know, working to try to avoid an escalation. But it's that -- it's that waiting in the meantime that that

gives that level of uncertainty.

The officials believe that an attack will come. And for that reason, the diplomacy as far as we can see at the moment, while in operation the

diplomacy is trying to move forward, we're not seeing it gain traction that India or Pakistan are downscaling their estimates of what could happen

next.

MACFARLANE: Yes. Part of those efforts to deescalate involve Pakistan and India working together to launch what's been called a neutral, independent

investigation into what's happened. Pakistan are saying they're ready for that. Why are India not? I mean India have given no sign or signal at the

moment that they are prepared to move forward with that.

ROBERTSON: Well, I spoke with a Pakistani -- senior Pakistani official today and he described to me what that -- what that body might look like

four or five or six countries maybe that could be picked jointly by both India and Pakistan. You know, United States in this context, they didn't

give that example, but the United States in this context could be one of those trying to find a diplomatic solution. Saudi Arabia could be one of

those trying to find a diplomatic solution.

But a handful of countries that are diplomatically engaged and are seen as neutral by both sides that would be the formula. That's how Pakistan thinks

about the formula. But it pulls in other countries in essence to what has been, you know, an ongoing bilateral disagreement between Pakistan and

India since 1947. And it appears that India's taken the decision that it doesn't want to internationalize at the moment this -- you know, the

conflict. It doesn't want to bring the international community in at scale to sort of sit on the scales if you will and tip the balance one way or

another.

So, it does seem that Pakistan is saying that they're ready to move forward on that. We know that one of the key issues that's come up about -- out of

this current round of tensions is that India has decided to stop the cooperation that allows the water from three important rivers to flow to --

into Pakistan. That would take several years to have really a strong knock- on effect. However, that is typical of the disputes that lie behind what would be the internationalization of this.

[14:36:44]

MACFARLANE: Yes. Nic, we appreciate you being with us from Islamabad. And we will, of course, continue to watch this very closely in the days to

come.

Now, the Trump Administration is considering a new tactic with suspected gang and cartel members. It may libel -- label them as Enemy Combatants

inside the U.S. Multiple sources tell CNN this label may be used as a way to detain suspect members more easily. It would also limit a suspect's

ability to challenge being jailed or deported.

Now, the enemy combatant level or combatant level was used by the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks in 2001. The definition was used to keep suspected

supporters of the Taliban or al-Qaeda in detention at Guantanamo Bay.

Joining us now is CNN's Natasha Bertrand. So, Natasha just help break this down for us because my understanding is of this is it's an attempt to

circumnavigate the Supreme Court's ruling that migrants be given due process before being deported. But it's quite extraordinary that they are

trying to link terrorist organizations with migrants at all.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right. And that's why legal experts told us that this is going to be very

difficult for the Trump Administration to argue in court if it in fact comes to that. And they do try to apply this Enemy Combatant label to these

migrants that they have deemed terrorists.

But as one lawyer put it who was at the Defense Department, until just recently and had visibility into this issue, this entire thing, these

deliberations that the administration is having right now are all in service of trying to essentially make these deportations unreviewable by

the courts.

And there is a line of thinking inside the Trump Administration that by labeling some of these migrants that are deemed terrorists by the Trump

Administration -- you'll recall that the Trump Administration designated eight different cartels and gangs as foreign terrorist organizations, then

that would then give these migrants fewer rights, and essentially it would be able to make them more easily detainable and limit their ability to

challenge those detentions in federal court because they would essentially be in military custody.

If you recall, the enemy combatant designation was applied by the U.S. to people who were suspected of being members of al-Qaeda or of the Taliban or

other associated groups after 9/11, and it allowed the administrations at the time to detain these people essentially without any kind of due

process. They were detained indefinitely really at Guantanamo Bay and they could not challenge those detentions.

And so, given how frustrated President Trump has been with the fact that the courts have been preventing in some cases the deportations of these

migrants, allowing challenges to move forward on the basis that they did not get due process they did not get hearings, it is understandable why the

administration would now be trying to figure out very creative ways to get around this.

But legal experts told us that it's unlikely to succeed. The courts would likely shoot it down almost immediately because the Enemy Combatant

definition is actually very narrow. It is only supposed to apply to members of al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or other groups affiliated with those groups. And

so, unlikely to succeed in the courts but that doesn't mean that the administration is not going to try.

[14:40:05]

MACFARLANE: Yes. And we will watch very carefully to see where this goes, nevertheless. Natasha Bertrand, thank you.

All right, still to come tonight, author Beata Mairesse tells Isa how she fled Rwanda at age 15 at the height of the genocide there, and why decades

later she's still searching for answers. Stay with us for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACFARLANE: This week we've been spotlighting pioneers of business sport and the arts as part of our CNN series "VISIONARIES." When Chef Dominique

Crenn became the first woman in the U.S. to earn the coveted three Michelin Stars for her restaurant, she knew her life would change forever. Yet it's

her family roots in France that keep her grounded. CNN's Kyung Lah has a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dominique Crenn, nature lover.

DOMINIQUE CRENN, MICHELIN-STARRED CHEF: I love to be alone. I love to walk through the landscape.

LAH (voice-over): A father's daughter.

CRENN: It's daddy and dummy. Dada-dummy.

LAH (voice-over): And hotdog connoisseur.

LAH: Last meal on earth.

LAH: It would be a hotdog and a shot of mezcal.

LAH (voice-over): Perhaps a surprising choice for the first woman in the United States to earn three Michelin Stars joining a very short list of

female chefs worldwide to garner such recognition. But for Dominique Crenn, the title of chef is just that, a title.

CRENN: My title might be a chef, but I am a human being that is using my craft as a language to be able to dialogue to others.

LAH (voice-over): Born just outside of Paris, Dominique was adopted as a baby to a politician father and a mother who worked in finance.

CRENN: Look at this. So, this is my mom. This is my dad. This is my brother. And this is little Dom, already touching food, you know. Look at

her.

LAH (voice-over): It was their roots in a Celtic region of France that first inspired Dominique.

LAH: I kind of want to start by asking just about how you grew up because you talk a lot about place where you first remember life beginning for you.

CRENN: Both of my parents are from Brittany. So, Brittany is a place in France that is on the coast, the Atlantic coast. It's rough. It's raw. It's

untouched. I spent a lot of time by the sea and this is where I start to become -- to become me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:45:21]

MACFARLANE: And you can see more from Kyung Lah's interview with Dominique Crenn on "VISIONARIES" premiering this weekend on CNN.

All right, still to come tonight --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEATA UMUBYEYI MAIRESSE, AUTHOR: Even after crossing the border, I was still, you know, shaking because death was just on our backs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Isa's Book Club features a story of survival. Author Beata Mairesse describes her terrifying escape from Rwanda in the 1990s, her

journey to safety, and her determination to reclaim her story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACFARLANE: Welcome back. Now, she fled Rwanda at the height of a devastating genocide. Now three decades later, she's telling her story.

Author Beata Mairesse joined Issa's Book Club to discuss her memoir, The Convoy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us on the Book Club this week is Beata Umubyeyi Mairesse. Beata, welcome to the show.

MAIRESSE: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SOARES: This is our first translated works really a truly deeply personal incredibly moving memoir. Just explain to our viewers what the story is

about here, what your story is about.

MAIRESSE: It's about the way I survived the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda. But this book is also about an investigation that I did and that

I went on for more than 15 years to search for traces of this very specific day of June 18 when I crossed the border looking for images, looking for

the other children, but also the different protagonist of the initial scene.

During my investigation, I found in 2020 the man, the Swiss at humanitarian aid agency, Alexis Briquet who had organized the convoys.

[14:50:03]

SOARES: When you were in the convoy, I think you were making your way Rwanda to Burundi, and you were crossing and you described yourself in the

text as remembering feeling terrified.

MAIRESSE: Yes.

SOARES: But let me see the -- tell you the piece that I found. Actually, why don't you read it. There you go.

MAIRESSE: OK. And then it took me a while to identify precisely what my expectation was to understand that the reason I was so determined to find

that original image was because I wanted to examine our faces at the exact moment when we crossed over to the side of life. Did they express our fear

of the soldiers and militia men who can be seen in the background of those who were watching us escape? Did they express relief, joy?

When we spoke over the telephone, Alexis Briquet told me he remembered me clearly from that day. He said something that seemed completely incongruous

to me that I was all smiles.

SOARES: When you heard that from Alexis Briquet, how did you react? Because it was so different from how you remembered.

MAIRESSE: Up to now, I don't -- I don't understand. So, I thought it was because it was a moment of relief.

SOARES: Yes.

MAIRESSE: But I also remember that even after crossing the border, I was still, you know, shaking because death was just on our backs.

SOARES: When you came face to face with, as you said, fathers, sons, brothers, ordinary men who were doing these horrific crimes, but then you

did something that it's something out of a movie. You convinced one of them that you're not one of those that they should be playing with, that they

should be messing with, that they should be killing. You convince them that you are French. Tell us about that moment.

MAIRESSE: Yes. I made up a story. I told them I -- that I didn't understand the language even if Kinyarwanda is my mother tongue. And I asked them to -

- I spotted one man who was the only one not wearing --

SOARES: Carrying a pen, wasn't he? Yes.

MAIRESSE: -- not wearing weapons, not covered with blood. And I thought, OK, he is the leader and he must be an intellectual. And I addressed to him

and I say, I don't understand what you say. I'm French and my father is French. I even went on by saying that -- threatening him that if Francois

Mitterrand, the former French president would learn that they have killed a French girl, he will be mad them and withdraw his support, and it worked.

SOARES: I read in an interview that you said that the genocide is a French story, that it comes with its responsibilities. What did you mean by that?

MAIRESSE: It took a lot of years for France to recognize that. I mean, the states not the citizens --

SOARES: Yes.

MAIRESSE: -- to recognize that they had a role in this genocide. But there was this three years ago report by historian acknowledged that --

acknowledging that there had been a huge responsibility of the State of France in supporting the genocidal government, and even before the

genocide, they could -- they could have stopped it.

SOARES: Part of your mission to trying to get these photos and the photographic evidence is that you tracked down also many of the children,

some of the children in that convoy that you were -- that you were in. I wonder what you took from them as you spoke to them and what that meeting

was like.

MAIRESSE: My quest for the names and the identities of children for 15 years had only given me 15 or 20 names. But since the book was out, a lot

of other children scattered all around the world have seen me on TV, and being here tonight is also something that it's going to be part of the

whole story because people will see me hear me. And they have been contacting me --

SOARES: That's wonderful.

MAIRESSE: -- every week. It's so important because it has given me the possibility to bring them the pictures. And you have to understand that for

some of those children, they have absolutely no pictures from their childhood. Everything was destroyed by the Interahamwe, the militiamen. And

so, having this picture, having a trace of that very moment while they were 5, 10 years old when they became survivors, is really important.

SOARES: Beata, I really appreciate you coming on the show. If you do us the honor of signing your book.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:55:12]

MACFARLANE: Such an important story to hear and for her to tell.

Now, the final preparations are underway as the Vatican prepares for a new pope. Crews have been on the roof of the Sistine Chapel today installing

the chimney that will next -- that will signal when the next pope has been chosen when white smoke emerges. That means cardinals have elected a new

pontiff. Cardinals will gather for that secretive conclave on Wednesday.

Finally, a cavalcade of canines on a quest to set a world record. Hundreds of dachshunds and their owners gathered in Budapest to try and break the

Guinness record for the biggest-ever single-breed dog walk. The final tally about 500 wiener dogs. It's not bad. But however, that was well short of

the current record of 897 set in Germany. Of course, a little way to go there but organizers saying they will try again next year.

And that is us -- it for us tonight. Thank you for watching. Stay with CNN. "NEWSROOM" with Max Foster is up next.

END