Return to Transcripts main page

Isa Soares Tonight

Israel and Hamas Considering 60-Day Ceasefire Proposal; Lula da Silva Threatens 50 Percent Retaliatory Tariffs Against U.S.; Jane Birkin's Original Hermes Bag Sold of $10M. U.S. Presents a New Approach for Peace with Russia Amid Russia's Deadly Strikes on Ukraine; Israeli Airstrikes Kills At Least 10 in Overnight Strikes; Trump Threatens 50 Percent Tariff on Brazil If It Doesn't Stop the Bolsonaro Witch-Hunt. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired July 10, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, a new deadly night of attacks in Ukraine

as the U.S. presents a new approach for peace with Russia. We'll have the very latest. Meanwhile, nowhere in Gaza is safe. Young children dead,

reportedly killed while waiting for aid as a ceasefire remains uncertain.

Plus, the Trump tariff threats take aim at Brazil, but not over trade, over the treatment of far-right former leader Jair Bolsonaro. We'll have the

very latest for you. But first, tonight, Russia is pushing forward with a renewed intensity in Ukraine, launching a massive attack on Kyiv one day

after the largest aerial attack of the entire war.

As we brought you that yesterday, dramatic images you're seeing there from overnight show really the aftermath of that drone and missile bombardment

on the capital that killed at least two people. And this comes as the U.N. released a new study indicating a sharp rise in civilian casualties in

Ukraine last month, marking a three-year high.

In Rome, meantime, at a conference focused on his country's reconstruction efforts, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy once again called on

Kyiv's allies to step up their support. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: We must stop Russian drones and missiles. And this means, more air defense supplies and more investments in

interceptor drones, air defense systems and of course, missiles. And I urge all our partners, increase your investments, when Russia increases its

attacks, we cannot have a shortage of funding for drone production.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Meanwhile, just days after U.S. President Donald Trump criticized Russian leader Vladimir Putin for his, quote, "meaningless statements"

regarding ceasefire negotiations, he also went further than that. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio expressed similar frustrations when he sat

down with Russia's top diplomat on the sidelines of a summit in Malaysia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE, UNITED STATES: We understand that these things take time and patience, but obviously, we're also frustrated that

more progress has not been made, and hopefully, we -- based on today and in the days to come, we'll have more clarity about what exactly the Russian

position and priorities are in this regard, and can begin to make some progress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Separately, British Prime Minister Keir Starmer and French President Emmanuel Macron met in London and said that European plans for a

Ukraine post-war peacekeeping force are, quote, "ready to go". Let's get more on this from CNN senior international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson.

Nic, so what do we know about what has been announced between Macron, Starmer in terms of the peacekeeping force here?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It's interesting because as part of their conversation today, they had this Coalition of the

Willing virtual meeting that had included people who were in Rome, President Zelenskyy and Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni. Keith Kellogg for

the first time, a U.S. official joined in this Coalition of the Willing.

He's President Trump's special envoy to Ukraine and Senator Richard Blumenthal and Senator Lindsey Graham, both significant figures in U.S.

political scene putting pressure --

SOARES: With this bill on the Senate.

ROBERTSON: Exactly, really wanting to pressure Trump to do more to support Ukraine. So, interesting that they were there. But what did they say? This

is the first time we heard a plan laid out whereby there would be -- it appears, NATO troops on the ground after a ceasefire. We need to be ready,

Keir Starmer said.

To have these troops to be able to go on the ground, there would be a three-star General at a headquarters in France. It would rotate after a

year to the U.K., but there would be a Kyiv element, a two-star British General commanding forces inside of Ukraine that would be looking at

regenerating Ukraine's forces. So, training, equipping, arming, exactly what President Putin has said --

SOARES: He didn't want it --

ROBERTSON: He absolutely will not --

SOARES: Yes --

ROBERTSON: Tolerate --

SOARES: Yes --

ROBERTSON: NATO getting closer to his border is how he would see it.

SOARES: Is this then, a negotiating tactic, you think? Some pressure being applied as we talked -- they talked about more pressure being applied. I

think even today with Keith Kellogg are trying to bring Putin to negotiating table.

[14:05:00]

We've been talking about this for eight weeks. That pressure hasn't had any sort of effect as we've seen in the last couple of days, Nic, with the

relentless aerial attacks. What are you hearing from your sources about whether President Trump, who has changed his rhetoric in the last several

weeks, whether we're closer to more pressure from the United States, whether it's bills, sanctions and whether this is tied to that -- it's part

of the tactic.

ROBERTSON: I think what they're setting out, what Macron and Starmer have set out here, made public, is what's been discussed behind the scenes. So,

the United States will have been aware of this, but it will limit President Trump's negotiating ability if he has such with Putin. Many people would

argue that Putin has just been playing him so that --

SOARES: Yes --

ROBERTSON: He can continue a Summer offensive, which is what is essentially what he's been doing at the moment. But I think for President

Trump, he will no doubt have been aware that this was going on in the background. But what has been very interesting, really, if you look at it

from this perspective, February, the disastrous Zelenskyy-Trump meeting, Coalition of the Willing forms to support Zelenskyy and support Ukraine in

American isolationism.

But now, Trump, perhaps, as you say, has come full circle. So, is this part of that coming full circle? If it's going to continue to supply the air

defense systems that we've heard about this week, is this part of the broader project? The European part of this had stayed very silent on the

sidelines --

SOARES: Yes --

ROBERTSON: So, as not to exacerbate tensions with President Putin, which is what something Trump wanted. He wanted that space to have his way, his

negotiations, his talks with Putin. And perhaps, this is a ground reality of Europe saying time -- time is up. We're putting our position on the

table now.

SOARES: And you're being very clear on where they stand, whether the United States is with them or not. Nic, thank you very much indeed. I want

to continue this discussion, my next guest, global affairs analyst Michael Bociurkiw, live for us in Odesa in Ukraine. Michael, great to see you.

I'm sure you were listening in to that discussion that Nic and I were having. What did you make then of what we heard today from Starmer and from

President Macron? Is this a sign, perhaps, that the needle is turning, that pressure is going to be applied here?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Sure, good to be with you again, Isa. Well, certainly, a lot of balls than there aren't there, and

almost difficult to keep track of everything. But i can tell you that just going back about a month ago when the Black Sea Security Forum happened

here in Odesa, there was a lot of skepticism about European leadership.

A lot of criticism of Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron and the new German chancellor for, you know, basically sleepwalking their way, knowing that,

you know, if Trump came back to power, that he would probably pursue a same strategy of disengaging us, especially in terms of protecting Ukraine. Now,

I think what the Ukrainians really want to happen quickly now is President Zelenskyy said is for a lot of investment to come in on, especially drone

production.

But the problem I have with this, to be very honest with you, is the Russians seem to be already one step ahead by the amount of drones they're

now throwing at Ukraine. Their predictions that they go -- could go up to a 1,000 a night soon. So, this is all very good, what they're saying. And of

course, there's talk of that protection or monitoring force, whatever you want to call it.

But let's focus on what's happening right now, I would say, let's not put the cart before the horse and think about how to maximize that pain on Mr.

Putin, how to starve his war machine of the resources so that this ends sooner rather than later.

SOARES: Yes, and look, we've been here before, haven't we? There's a lot of talking. There's a lot of gatherings and conferences, talking about --

BOCIURKIW: Yes --

SOARES: Pressure. And as we have seen, even with some of the armaments, some of the -- you know, the things that are needed on the ground, it takes

a long time. So, is your sense -- and I think it's important because we are starting to see while we see this aerial assault intensify, certainly in

the last two weeks, mostly via drones.

And you can speak to that because you are in Odesa. We are starting to see the tone shift as well from the United States. How do you -- how do you

make sense, then, of what you have been hearing. Frame that for us?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, sure. Well, what is happening in the United States, especially the participation of those two senators in the call today is

very good. And I think what's happening in the background there is that, Republican senators, especially, who are sympathetic to Ukraine, have been

able to influence Mr. Trump, whether that will last, because we all know about his short attention span. Let's see.

[14:10:00]

But that is a very positive thing for Ukraine. But it has to be realized as well that the United States alone cannot provide the air cover that is

needed right now. Again, going back to what's happening here on a nightly basis. And thank goodness, Odesa has been spared the past few days. But you

know, you have ramped up production on the Russian side.

You have them coming up with different ways, decoy drones and other innovative ways to evade Ukrainian air defenses. So, again, that's why I'm

-- why all this discussion about more armaments, more Patriot Missile Systems is very important. I think the Trump team has to think very

creatively and urgently about how to tighten the noose around Mr. Putin's neck. And if I could give you one clear example of how this might work is -

-

SOARES: Yes --

BOCIURKIW: Let Mr. Trump use his influence, his leverage over countries that are helping Russia evade sanctions. The gulf states, UAE and Qatar in

particular, Turkey, Thailand, these are all places where Russians are buying a lot of luxury properties. Millions of Russian tourists, oligarchs

close to Mr. Putin, hiding or parking their yachts, there it goes on and on and on.

And I think once you know, Mr. Trump, for example, says to them, OK, boys and girls, game over, none of that until we have peace from Moscow, that's

when rubber will really hit the road --

SOARES: Do you think, though -- do you think he will really go there? Do you think this is something you'll consider?

BOCIURKIW: Well, let's not forget. This is a man with a big ego who is gaming for the Nobel Peace Prize --

SOARES: Yes --

BOCIURKIW: So, he might want to use every lever possible. And let's not forget that he's used tariff, his tariff blitz on countries that certainly

don't deserve it -- by the way, including Ukraine and Moldova. So, I don't think anything is off the table when it comes to Donald Trump.

SOARES: Michael, really appreciate, Michael Bociurkiw live for us in Odesa. Thank you very much, Michael, we always appreciate your perspective.

Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Now, taking you to the United States because a grim and difficult task continues today in Texas as rescue

workers search for more than 160 people still missing from last week's floods.

The known death toll has now surpassed 120, and many of them are children. We're also getting new information about bureaucratic obstacles that may

have impacted the emergency response to the floods. Multiple officials inside FEMA tell CNN, they were ready to deploy assets to Texas

immediately.

But new protocols meant some deployments weren't approved until 72 hours after the flooding began. A new internal policy requires DHS Secretary

Kristi Noem's personal approval for expenses above $100,000. Disaster response costs often soar into the billions. Our Shimon Prokupecz is live

for us in Kerrville in Texas.

And Shimon, just give us a sense, first of all, of what you have been seeing on the ground as we, you know, see this death toll continue to

increase.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It's a lot of sadness and certainly devastation. And we're starting to see people emerge

from these communities trying to get help. I mean, we are at this disaster recovery center where they just opened yesterday. The community really

doesn't even know that they're here.

And it's just really about trying to get the word out now that these people need help, that FEMA has arrived here, is here to try and get help. But

there's going to be a lot of red tape. You know, some of these people were living in RVs, so, that's going to present some challenges. But what

you're seeing now also are people come here to try to get help for their neighbors, neighbors who can't leave their homes because of their age or

because of some disability who are stuck inside their homes.

But you know, you're also seeing a lot of people, the community and people getting together to try and help each other, really and just the hours

after all this happened, many of the community members are getting together to try and rescue people, to try and help people. But now, I think as this

goes and the days go by and people start realizing that they've lost everything, and they're walking in these doors to get the help, the worst

moment in their lives.

That's what's happening right now. And that's what people here for now are focusing on, is how to move forward, how to get the financial assistance

that they need because they have lost everything. And there are so many of them in particular areas that are poor, that really need the help versus

some of the other communities.

So, that's what we're seeing here on the ground from the community and the people. Now, as to the authorities, look, they are refusing to answer

questions concerning the preparation and what they knew as this storm was approaching. While the state officials were sounding the alarms, saying,

listen to your local communities for weather updates and what you should do, the local officials were not -- right now, it appears were not doing

anything to warn the people of this community or the people that were coming into this community for the 4th of July holiday.

[14:15:00]

So, there's a lot of questions. There's going to probably be an investigation into the preparation and the response to this. And that's

what the state officials are vowing. That's going to take some time. But for now, what's happening is the recovery continues. There's still so many

missing and many of the people are just trying to figure out how they're going to survive financially, and how they're going to rebuild.

So, that's really what we're seeing on the ground right now.

SOARES: It's been incredibly hard wrapping your head around that --

PROKUPECZ: Yes --

SOARES: Horrific reality. Shimon, really appreciate it, thank you very much, Shimon Prokupecz there in Kerrville --

PROKUPECZ: Sure --

SOARES: In Texas. And still ahead right here as diplomats in air- conditioned offices talk about a possible ceasefire for Gaza. New Israeli attacks are claiming dozens more lives including children waiting outside a

clinic. Plus, Brazil's President is giving President Trump a taste of his own medicine. The latest on the tariff threat just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: With no immediate ceasefire in sight, Palestinians in Gaza are describing a horrific Israeli attack that left children among the dead. We

do want to warn you, the videos you're about to see are extremely disturbing. One man says, the ground shook beneath our feet and everything

around us turned into blood.

Medics say 15 people were killed in Deir al-Balah, eight of them children, the youngest, two years of age. They were gathered outside a clinic,

waiting with their mothers for supplements. Israel says it targeted a Hamas militant, adding, the incident -- their words, is under review. Gaza's

Health Ministry says at least 82 people have been killed in the last 24 hours, and these men in Khan Younis used their hands as well as shovels to

try to dig out bodies after a home was hit by a strike.

Spain's Prime Minister is calling on Europe to do more to stop the war. This is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PEDRO SANCHEZ, PRIME MINISTER, SPAIN (through translator): The humanitarian disaster that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's

government is perpetrating in Gaza and also in the West Bank, is an outrage that will go down in history books as one of the darkest episodes of the

21st century. And you also know that Europe is not doing enough to stop this genocide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Pedro Sanchez there. Well, Israel denies committing genocide, saying it's fighting to eliminate Hamas. Today, Israel's Foreign Minister

said his country has agreed to improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza after talks with the EU. Gideon Sa'ar says there will be more trucks, more

crossings and more routes for humanitarian aid.

[14:20:00]

Now, ten people have been rescued from the Red Sea after Houthi attacks sank their ship near Yemen. That is according to the EU's maritime security

mission. Three people on board were killed. The U.S. mission to Yemen is accusing Houthis of kidnapping some of the remaining crew members. Houthis

say they have taken them to undisclosed location.

A British maritime group says the Liberian-flagged vessel had been under attack for several days. Houthis say the ship was heading for Israel. It's

vowing to continue attacks at sea until the war in Gaza ends. We'll take you to the United States because a federal judge in the U.S. has issued a

nationwide block against President Donald Trump's order to end birthright citizenship.

The ruling on Thursday focuses on filings from immigration rights attorneys. In its response to an executive order limiting who could be

considered an American citizen if born on U.S. soil. The Trump administration will have a chance to appeal this ruling. If you remember,

last month, the U.S. Supreme Court said lower courts could only issue nationwide injunctions for class action lawsuits, which is what has

happened in this instance.

And still to come right here on the show, President Trump is threatening a steep tariff on Brazil over what he calls a witch-hunt of a fellow right-

wing politician. What Brazil's President has to say about that threat. Plus, legendary magazine editor Graydon Carter gives me the inside scoop on

life in New York during journalism's golden age and what he learned from profiling Donald Trump. That's a bit later.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:00]

SOARES: Before the break, I was bringing you up-to-date with that horrific attack in Deir al-Balah in Gaza. Fifteen people killed, eight of them

children. I want to bring in our Jeremy Diamond in Jerusalem for the very latest. And what more are you learning, Jeremy, about this horrific attack?

Israeli forces saying it was targeting a Hamas militant. They're calling it an incident. What else can you tell us?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, just an absolutely horrific scene that we saw in central Gaza today. And these individuals

were waiting outside of a health clinic that was actually run by an American nonprofit called Project Hope. They are now calling this a clear

violation of international law and calling for a ceasefire once again.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (voice-over): Children's screams pierce through the smoke-filled air in central Gaza.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

DIAMOND: But screams alone cannot prepare you for the scale of the carnage unleashed by this Israeli airstrike. This street is filled with the bodies

of dead and injured children whose bodies are quickly loaded onto donkey carts. And then there are those barely clinging to life, like this woman's

laid on the ground.

"They took my daughter", she says, her daughter's fate has already been sealed in her bloodstained white dress. Four-year-old Aya(ph) is one of

eight children killed in the strike. Aya(ph) and her mother were among several families waiting to enter a health clinic run by Project Hope, an

American nonprofit whose operations were known to the Israeli military.

In her white dress, Aya(ph) is impossible to miss. Minutes later, two men walk by the clinic and then an explosion fills the air. That smoke is soon

replaced by an outpouring of grief. "Not my sister. No, not my sister", this boy cries. The Israeli military said it quotes, "it regrets any harm

to uninvolved individuals and is reviewing the incident."

It said it was targeting a Hamas militant who infiltrated Israel during the October 7th attacks, but declined to provide his name. These four children

killed in the targeting of a single militant, do have names. Amir(ph), Mohammed(ph), Yasmin(ph) and Aya(ph), still in her bloodstained dress.

Mohammed wearing a makeshift plastic diaper, is a testament to the desperate circumstances that brought his family to that clinic amid

shortages of diapers and baby formula.

Speak to me, Amir's(ph) father pleads, hugging his son's lifeless body. His brother Nidal(ph) joins him in mourning, but he hasn't just lost a nephew,

his 14-year-old daughter, Samah(ph) was also killed. "What happened is indescribable. It's a massacre. It's genocide, it's a crime against

children", Nidal(ph) says.

My daughter woke up with a headache and went to get checked at the clinic. Suddenly, we heard the sound and came running to see all the children

dead. Samah's twin sister is inconsolable. "Please, wake her up. She is lying. I know her, I swear she's lying." As one sister mourns another, a

father pleads for it all to end. Samah(ph) is gone and the war is still ongoing, Nidal(ph) says. May the war be gone with Summer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And as for little Aya(ph), who was wearing that white dress and was killed in that strike, her mother, who was saying, my daughter was

taken away from me. She is now out of surgery, we're told, Isa, and she is still in the hospital, but she is alive. And as all of this happens, so

many lives hang in the balance.

We are watching as the ceasefire negotiations continue in Doha, Qatar, and also as the Israeli Prime Minister is now close to wrapping up a week-long

visit in Washington with no deal reached so far. This morning, a senior Israeli official told us that they believe that a ceasefire deal can be

reached within days.

But clearly, the final sticking points have yet to be resolved. And the Israeli Prime Minister is emphasizing once again that, yes, while Israel

will enter negotiations during the 60-day ceasefire to end the war in Gaza, he is emphasizing that Israel's conditions remain the same, that Hamas

must lay down its weapons, that Gaza be demilitarized, and that Hamas have no military or governing capabilities in Gaza.

He said if that can't be reached during the 60 days through negotiations, then Israel will achieve those aims by returning to war. Isa.

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Such vital reporting, incredibly hard watched from that piece, but it's so important that all our viewers see it.

Jeremy, thank you very much indeed. Appreciate it.

We are going to leave Gaza for just a second and turn really to Brazil because it's a question right now of who will back down first. Brazil's

president is standing up to President Trump over his latest tariff warning. Now, Lula da Silva is vowing to slap a reciprocal 50 percent tariff on

American goods if the Trump administration follows through with their threat.

And this all started when the U.S. president threatened Brazil with that same tariff if it does not stop what Trump calls a witch hunt against

former President Bolsonaro. He is standing trial for allegedly planning a coup to stay in power after losing his reelection bid to the current

president, Lula. This was back in 2022. But as I explained, Trump's tariff threat against Brazil is more personal this time than it is business.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: President Trump is using the economy as a political weapon. He's been saying the tariffs are about leveling the playing field, that there's

a trade imbalance, and that the United States is being ripped off by other countries. In the case of Brazil, that is not true.

President Trump yet is imposing a 50 percent tariff on the country. The reason you ask, a court case against former President Jair Bolsonaro, a

case which he says is a witch hunt in this letter and should end immediately. So, this is not about business, but about his buddy.

SOARES (voice-over): The two have been friends since Trump's first term.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Probably because of the relationship that we have Brazil and the United States have never been closer.

SOARES (voice-over): And they've been building on that relationship ever since. In 2022, Trump supported Bolsonaro's bid for reelection.

TRUMP: So, I strongly endorse President Bolsonaro. He will be your leader for hopefully a long time.

SOARES (voice-over): And even though he lost to current President Lula da Silva, Bolsonaro came out for Trump ahead of the 2024 election in the U.S.,

praising the exceptional relationship when he appeared at a CPAC Convention.

TRUMP: President Bolsonaro, a great honor.

SOARES (voice-over): Now, back at the White House, Trump using the weight of the office to help his buddy out. But why is Bolsonaro on trial?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're getting into the capitol tonight.

SOARES (voice-over): Well, remember when Trump supporters stormed the capitol? Brazil had its own version, on January 8, 2023. Pro-Bolsonaro

protestors broke into Congress and the presidential palace.

I was there in the aftermath and I personally saw the damage the rioters had done, ransacking government buildings, destroying artifacts, including

art pieces, even setting some buildings on fire.

Prosecutors say they found a connection between the riots and Brazil's former president. And earlier this year they charged Bolsonaro along with

33 other people in connection with an alleged plot to overthrow the government, those accused the deny the charges.

For his part, the Brazilian leader says his country has a right to reciprocate the tariffs and has refused to get involved in Bolsonaro court

case, telling Trump to do the same.

LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): This country has laws, this country has rules, and this country has an owner, and that's the

Brazilian people. So, save your judgments for your own life and keep them out of ours.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES (on camera): So, who's going to blink first. I want to bring in Uria Fancelli, who's a political commentator for CNN Portugal, who joins

his live from Sao Paulo. Uria, really appreciate you being with us. Look, this very clearly, as I've just like outlined there, this is not about

trade imbalance. Brazil actually has a trade surplus with the United States. This is very much about his buddy, as I said, president -- former

President Bolsonaro.

Can I start by asking you though how President Lula is going to retaliate, reciprocate? What -- I know they've been meeting with ministers today. What

are you hearing on that front first regarding the 50 percent tariffs?

URIA FANCELLI, CNN PORTUGAL POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Isa. Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here. Right now, the Brazilian government is

basically in wait and see mode. They want to know if these tariffs are actually going to take effect. So, they'll likely wait until August 1st

before making any big moves. And the challenge for Brazil is clear, how do you respond firmly without falling to a cycle of economic self-sabotage or

worse, triggering a full-blown tariff war that just keeps escalating?

[14:35:00]

Because let's be honest, Brazil knows it's the weaker side to the situation. So, could there be retaliation? Sure. But if there is, it's

going to have to be smart, like targeting specific sectors that are strategic and sensitive to the United States.

One option that has already been discussed is the suspension of U.S. pharmaceutical patents that would allow Brazil to produce local generics of

American medications that are currently protected by intellectual property rights. Another possibility, raising taxes on films, books, and other

cultural products that involve U.S. copyrights. So, yes, Brazil might strike back, but it will be looking for pressure points that actually

matter to Washington without hurting its own economy in the process.

SOARES: And, Uria, look, with other letters that we've seen, you know, this week, I think so far -- I've lost count. I think it's about 22 or so

letters. There's always been, this is what we want to see. This is a tariff. Come to the table. Give us something, a better deal, and we then

can renegotiate.

In this instance, there is none of that. It's very clear this is political. So, how much leverage, if any, at all, does President Lula have here, do

you think?

FANCELLI: Well, I understand that it is political, and a lot of people are saying that this move by Donald Trump shows some kind of ideological

loyalty to an ally, in this case, Jair Bolsonaro, who was even called at some point, the Trump of the tropics. But let's be honest, when we're

talking about Trump, there is no real loyalty to anyone. We've seen over and over how he treats his so-called allies.

So, I'd say it's less about loyalty and more about ideological affinity. One that he uses when he benefits him. Take Elon Musk for example, one day

you're best friends, the next day you're enemy. So, same pattern. And we can't forget what Bolsonaro did, and you mentioned that very well in

January, 2023.

So, I think with all of this, Trump is trying to -- he's doing -- he's using Bolsonaro as a symbol. He wants to show his own base, his supporters,

that they're all victims of the same system, of the same institutions, trying to silence strong leaders, strong men. It fits perfectly with this

narrative of the silence hero fighting for freedom.

SOARES: How, then -- how has this been playing in Brazil? I mean, this will play right in the hands of Bolsonaro supporters who continue to put

out lot of discrepancies, fake news. How is this playing out in Brazil right now?

FANCELLI: Well, we actually see two different views of reactions. One of them is by President Lula, because we have to remember that in October next

year, there will be elections. Bolsonaro, he can't run for office because of this coup attempt. So, he's not able to run. And he's being tried for

that by the Supreme Court. But Bolsonaro supporters, they still have the hopes that up to the last minute, this decision will be reversed and he'll

be able to run again.

So, we see that Bolsonaro's son, Eduardo, he's is a member of Congress. He's been licensed for a few months. He's in the United States. He's

actually appointed as one of the people responsible for lobbying Republicans. So, Donald Trump takes this stance.

So, what we see now is Lula supporters being more nationalists. They're actually having a sense that we're more used to seeing on Bolsonaro size.

It's very funny. They're posting the Brazilian flag with green and yellow colors. And Bolsonaro is trying to balance his acts because he needs to

show patriotism at the same time.

One of the things that is being taken into consideration is Bolsonaro trying to present himself as the problem solver. So, I read reports that he

might be considering calling Donald Trump and ask for the suspicion of the tariffs.

SOARES: My goodness, how things have evolved. Uria Fancelli, really appreciated. Thanks, Uria. Good to see you.

FANCELLI: Thank you. Good to be here.

SOARES: Still to come tonight, Graydon Carter tells us about his complicated relationship with Donald Trump. The legendary magazine editor

explaining how he became frenemies with the U.S. president. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: Joining us today in the Book Club is Graydon Carter with "When the Going Was Good." Graydon, welcome to the show.

GRAYDON CARTER, FORMER VANITY FAIR EDITOR AND AUTHOR, WHEN THE GOING WAS GOOD": Thank you.

SOARES: This is an incredibly witty and insightful book, memoir, I should say, that tells us so much that we all -- some of it we know about your

Vanity Fair career internationally. You were renowned for that. But what I particularly love about it was your upbringing. I learned so much that I

did not know in Canada. How you started Canadian railroads. I think you had a job for like --

CARTER: No, that was a job -- that was parents we -- when I was growing up in your late teens, parents sent their children out west to toughen them up

and do some character building.

SOARES: They did? They did what?

CARTER: Yes. It was one of my favorite jobs ever. Strange enough. I lived for six months in a box car with 11 men, most of them were convicts, and we

climbed telegraph poles all day in the hot sun. And played a lot of cards at night. And I learned profanities that I never knew existed before. But I

did come back a lot tougher. I actually had some muscles on me, which I had never had before. And it was a great wonderful experience.

SOARES: And very early on in your book, you could tell that you had stars in your eyes. You wanted to make something out of yourself. At what point

did you decide that New York was the place for that?

CARTER: New York was always a sort of gravitational pull for me. And I just through, you know, magazines and movies, that was the place I wanted

to be. I knew I wanted to be a writer of some sort. And funny, the two books -- my favorite books are "Act One" and "Youngblood Hawk," are both

about people who came to New York and to do -- sort of make a little difference in the city.

SOARES: And you worked -- in case our viewers don't know, you worked across various publications of your career. You founded Spy. You worked at

--

CARTER: Time.

SOARES: -- Time Magazine, Vanity Fair. You always kept going back and you continue to write. You can until today. What is it about magazines that is

so attractive to you? What do you love about it?

CARTER: Well, it's funny because -- and a lot of people gravitate to newspapers.

SOARES: Yes.

CARTER: Magazines to me told you more about the way people lived. Newspapers told you about what happened. And also, the stories could be

longer and have sort of a narrative pull to them. And that attracted me as well.

[14:45:00]

SOARES: And you know, what is beautiful about this book is that you kind of describe the golden age of journalism. There were no budget restraints,

it seems, from what you were --

CARTER: Well, there were at a certain point, but yes.

SOARES: But slightly looser.

CARTER: Yes.

SOARES: Right? And we know, because I -- you know, I started out a financial journalist, how the financial crisis, how much that changed

everything and the strain it put on advertising. Besides that, what else shifted that?

CARTER: Well, in -- just in New York City, there used to be a new -- you know, first of all, you -- as if you walk through New York City in the

1990s or the '80s, you saw magazines everywhere because there were newsstands everywhere. So, it was sort of part of the fabric of New York.

Same thing as in London and other major cities.

And I think as the magazine business declined, their business declined. And there used to be a newsstand in every major building in New York. And so,

just the visibility of seeing magazines on a walk disappeared. And it -- but it -- look, the internet, you know, it was voracious and it picked off

the newspapers first, then it picked off the weekly magazines, and then it's going after the monthlies now.

SOARES: And look, you have written and you have spoken, and I've seen some of the interviews you've done as well. And actually, you describe in

various chapters your relationship -- I don't know if I should call it relationship, a friendship with -- acquaintance with the current president,

Donald Trump.

CARTER: Oh, yes. OK.

SOARES: And you talk about him in the book. In fact, let me put it here. I think I wrote it down. Here we go. 217. We can talk about that because you

wrote a piece in GQ, right? I think you spent three weeks with him, you said --

CARTER: Yes, 40 years ago.

SOARES: 40 years ago. Can you tell me what that was like, those three weeks?

CARTER: Well, he was just -- he was sort of a new up and coming developer, nowhere near the biggest developer in New York. But he was making a lot of

-- he was in the tabloids a lot, making headlines. And I had a vague idea who he was. It wasn't my idea. I was assigned the story. It was his first

national exposure. So, I spent a lot of time with him. And we've had a complicated relationship for the last 40 years.

SOARES: Are you even surprised, Graydon, that he is president, he is where he is right now?

CARTER: I mean, astounded and astounded that he's come back a second time given what happened in the four years prior to this year. And he's sort of

a different person. He had a sort of charming salesman's manner. His sort of patter was that of a very successful salesman back in the olden days.

And I didn't foresee the sort of wanton brutality in him I that I see now.

SOARES: Indeed. And you became, I mean, his favorite frenemy.

CARTER: Oh, he is got many more.

SOARES: I'm sure.

CARTER: I'm a --

SOARES: I'm sure he has many.

CARTER: I'm way down the list now.

SOARES: But you -- you know, I read that you do -- you printed and you framed some of the tweets that he put out of about --

CARTER: I framed -- I blew them up to about this big, had them framed and had them all inside my wallet, each other. There was like 48 of them. And I

wasn't -- I was sort of -- I thought they were -- a lot of them were funny and you know, he called me a loser, he called me -- you know, he called me

dopey. He called me sleepy. I think he probably just seen "Snow White" the night he tweeted those out.

SOARES: He use dopey and loser quite a bit though.

CARTER: Yes, I know. I know. It's not exclusive to me. But I miss his sort of personal attention because he hasn't tweeted me since he got back into

office.

SOARES: A badge of honor perhaps.

CARTER: A badge of honor or just I miss the attention, you know, from him.

SOARES: Well, it keeps us -- he's certainly keeping us all in this industry --

CARTER: I know.

SOARES: -- incredibly, incredibly busy, as you all know. It's frenetic trying to keep up with this administration. Let's go back to really your

career. You very much paint yourself, and we see from you -- you know, from your writing as a family man. You always made time to be with your family.

How important has that been to you throughout your career?

CARTER: Well, I have five kids and I pretty much work to be home at 5:30 every night. I might work on manuscripts after they went to bed, but I

never used the word career once in my entire life. I never used it in the book. I always thought I just had a succession of jobs and the jobs were

there to put my food on the table and a roof over our heads.

And only looking back, I realized, OK, it's a bit of a career, but I just always thought of it as, I'm really lucky to have this job.

SOARES: You clearly loved every moment of it. Graydon, really appreciate you to coming on the show. Thank you so much. You've got a book there. I'm

just going to pass you our pen.

CARTER: OK.

SOARES: Thank you very much indeed.

CARTER: Thank you so much.

SOARES: Right. This was great. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:00]

SOARES: Going, going, gone. One of the most famous bags in the world has just been auctioned off in Paris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: I know you had million, because that's all you need. So, is millions there. You are looking at the original Birkin bag as it sells for

a record $10 million. It was a custom-built design for the late actor and singer, Jane Birkin, who turned her home into a fashion icon. And Sotheby's

says it's a rare moment in the world of fashion when an object transcends trends and becomes a legend.

Anna Stewart has more. And Anna knows how I feel about this. We share an office and I've made my opinions very clear, this is a lot of money for a

bag. Gorgeous, but a lot of money. Just tell us what more can you tell us? I mean, do we not even know bid it?

ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I will play the other side of the (INAUDIBLE), devil's advocate. It's not just a bag, it's a piece of

history, it's a work of art, and it's part of a hallowed sort of fashion law, if you'd like. This is when Jane Birkin happened to sit next to the

CEO of Hermes on a plane to Paris and complained about the fact that her papers were falling out and no bag existed that was functional for a woman.

And hey, presto, this bag was made.

And this is not just a Birkin bag, this is the Birkin bag. This is the very first, this is hers. And for $10 million, you get a battered bag. It has

scuffs. It has -- I mean --

SOARES: I think stickers apparently, kids stickers.

STEWART: You could see sort of sticker, sticky marks all over it. This was a bag that was actually used in love. This is not how you see Birkin bag --

SOARES: Yes, exactly my point. $10 million.

STEWART: $10 million. But this is the ultimate bag. What we don't know, of course, is who bought it and what they're going to do with it. And are they

going to use it like Jane Birkin? Probably not, I imagine. This is likely to be in someone's private collection, or perhaps even maybe we'll see it

in exhibitions or museums. Perhaps it will be locked away in a safe. Because ultimately, this is probably more an investment than a fashion

piece.

SOARES: Yes, and that's interesting because they don't make many of these bags. So, trying to get your hands in just a brand-new one. Give us a sense

of the cost, for example, if you were to buy a brand-new Birkin bag, how much that would cost?

STEWART: So, in 1984, you could get one at a snip for $2,000. Now, you're looking at more $13,000, and this is for a new bag. Now, people might be

thinking, oh, that's pretty good. Well, second-hand they cost a lot more because $13,000 new, that's for a very limited client list and is a very

limited run. So, that's really not an option for most people, which is why the second-hand market is absolutely wild. And they -- you know, you see

sort of $30,000, $40,000 for your average bag.

[14:55:00]

Now, there was this report done by Bag Hunter. I normally come to you with big bank research and analyst notes. This is the best I've got. Between

1980 and 2015, the Birkin's value on the secondary market average about 14.2 percent a year. It beat the S&P, it beat gold. And this just gets you

thinking, $10 million seems absurd for any kind of bag or even, frankly, maybe art, but just think about this. Looking at that return, how much will

this bag, this specific bag be worth in the next few years? It may look like it actually good value for money when in a few years' time, maybe it

sells for 15 million. Who knows?

SOARES: You can tell that she's a business journalist. She's looking at the number. I'm just thinking it's just a lot of money for a bit of

leather, tattered leather. But you know --

STEWART: A hallowed story of tattered leather, Isa.

SOARES: I've got a lot of tattered leather at home, that doesn't cost this much. Anna, thank you very much indeed. That does it for us. Maybe Lynda

Kinkade has another opinion on this. She's up next with "What We Know." See you tomorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:00]

END