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In the Arena

Tense Scene in Wisconsin; U.S. Response to Libya; Wisconsin Stand Off Ends Suddenly

Aired March 09, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELIOT SPITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Eliot Spitzer. Welcome to the program.

Breaking news in Madison, Wisconsin, tonight and a lot of angry people. It's a tense scene. Our regulars, E.D. Hill and Will Cain are here.

Guys, you're not going to believe it. It is the nuclear option in Madison, Wisconsin. Exciting, amazing stuff.

Here's what is going on. After nearly a month-long standoff over public unions and the issue of collective bargaining Republican senators have made their move. They voted to take away almost all collective bargaining rights from public workers.

Without any Democrats present, remember, they're all on the lam in Chicago, they came up with a way to bypass the missing senators. And let me explain how they did this.

When this was part of the state budget it was considered a fiscal bill, a fiscal bill needed a quorum of 20. In the Senate, in Wisconsin, there are only 19 Republicans, so they needed a Democrat. They couldn't get any.

They have stripped the piece of the bill out, made it a standalone bill so it relates only to collective bargaining so they claim it is no longer a fiscal bill. They need a quorum of only a simple majority which they have in the Senate with their 19 Republicans, so they took it out, made it a standalone bill and passed it, 18-1.

One brave Republican opposed it in the vote that was rammed through the Republican Senate in Wisconsin tonight.

We're going to talk to an angry Democratic senator in a moment but first let's go to the tense scene in Madison with CNN reporter Ed Lavandera standing by.

Ed, tell us what you've just witnessed out there in Madison and who is screaming and shouting about it.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Eliot, it was an absolutely incredible scene here as word started to trickle out that Republicans were calling a committee meeting late this afternoon and in less than two hours all of this went through a committee hearing and on to the floor of the Senate. Thousands of protesters, union supporters, are rushed out here to the capitol, you can hear the honking here in downtown Madison. There are several thousand people trying to get inside to the capitol right now. They think a lot of this is still going on.

Inside the capitol building, in the committee hearing room, there was room for only about 20 observers, so you might imagine the chanting and the screaming was incredibly intense. A huge amount of anger out here tonight over the way this has been handled. But, of course, Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin praising it, the majority leader of the Senate saying that they had to do this at this point because they felt that negotiations with the Democratic leadership had completely stalled out so they decided to go this way.

And essentially as you mentioned, Eliot, they've stripped out the portion of the bill that they can't pass that aren't fiscal. So that includes the collective bargaining reforms and also the 12 percent health care premium and the 5 percent pension contribution.

Those are the aspects of the bill that have been passed out here tonight. Now it moves on to the assembly portion so this hasn't completely passed out of the legislature here in Wisconsin. But it will very quickly. We anticipate that will continue to move on tomorrow morning and reach the governor's desk very soon unless there's some other roadblocks that get thrown up here in the way.

But right now, thousands of angry people descending here on the capitol in Madison -- Eliot.

SPITZER: You know, Ed, just a factual question just so it's clear to folks, the Republican Senate has passed it. The assembly, also controlled by Republican, you think, will do that tomorrow. Shortly then to be followed by the governor's signature.

But just to raise the issue of the legality of what has been done here, I hear that the Democrats are saying no good because there wasn't sufficient notice for the hearing of the conference committee and that this simply violated the open meeting rules of Wisconsin.

What are you hearing about that and what do you assess of the possibility that this will fail in the courts?

LAVANDERA: Well, you know, that's a tough question but that's exactly what we're hearing a lot tonight as a lot of the people here at the capitol realize what was happening and what was coming. You have -- Democratic assembly members who are saying, look, they didn't give enough notice to push this through, that this was essentially an open meeting act, requires 24 hours notice, two hours in case of an emergency, they say.

But all of that happened very quickly. Literally just after 4:00 word of this started trickling out. They made it on to the Senate floor by around -- a little after 6:00 Central Time and the meeting on the Senate floor lasted less than 10 minutes before it was voted out.

So Democrats here really pushing that angle that, number one, it was also an illegal meeting that there wasn't enough room for the amount of people that wanted to listen to that. So you'll be hearing a lot of that here in the coming days, but the fact of the matter is right now that bill has made its way out of the Senate.

E.D. HILL, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Ed, it's just -- I mean it's amazing. No one was expecting this, as you said. And we can hear in the background all of the honking and the noise.

Can your cameraman pan over there and just kind of give us a sense of what the scene is like around you at the capitol there in Madison?

LAVANDERA: Sure, let me see if we can zoom in. It's dark in our vantage point across here. But you can see this entrance over to -- into the capitol building. Just before 6:00 Central Time there was nobody here but all of this quickly spread between labor union groups and all the protesters that had been out here.

Obviously with more than three weeks of protesting, there is a good network of people who were passing along information.

And the chanting inside the capitol grounds tonight has been absolutely intense. It was actually a very tense situation. Police -- several dozen police here from not only the state police, local police inside the capitol building trying to maintain order as people were trying to get into the area in the committee hearing room where all of this was being discussed to no avail.

So a great deal of anger and the chanting throughout the capitol building just as loud inside as it is out here right now.

WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Ed. Will Cain here.

Listen, hey, the Wisconsin constitution didn't change yesterday -- from yesterday to today. Republican senators have always known that they could pass the repeal of collective bargain rights under -- with a simple majority under the premise that it's not a fiscal issue, so my question is what took so long? Why now? What changed between yesterday and today that made them decide to pursue this option?

LAVANDERA: Well, one of the statements that was released by the Republican majority leader in the Senate talks about how that essentially in his words that he was given three options by the Democratic minority leader and that they eventually came to the decision tonight or earlier today that that wasn't -- they weren't bargaining in good faith, that they were essentially just trying to stall for as long as they could.

So they got essentially tired of waiting. Why they didn't do this sooner, we haven't been able to get an answer to that question, but clearly something happened today that made them say, you know, enough is enough and we're going to go ahead and push through because we know we can.

SPITZER: Ed, I'm going to give you -- give you a different answer to that question that Will just answered. The reason is they are now admitting that the entire argument they've been making until now, the Republicans, that is, is false, F-A-L-S-E, false.

They were saying that collective bargaining was central to the fiscal health of the state. They're now saying it isn't a fiscal issue at all or else they couldn't pass it with this majority.

So they can't have it both ways. Either it's a fiscal issue, in which case they need the super majority for the quorum, or it's not a fiscal issue and their argument for it falls apart entirely, so it seems to me they're rushing this through. They're going to lose the debate of public opinion, they've already lost it, but that's what's really going on here.

And this is going to be a lot of screaming and shouting and a legal challenge, as well, in the days and weeks ahead. So it's going to be interesting to watch.

Anyway, what do you anticipate out of the assembly later tonight? Are they going to move this as fast as they can?

LAVANDERA: We just ran over -- before we came out here, we ran over to the assembly. We didn't see any action over there so our impression is that at least legislatively we're done here for the night and we imagine it will be taken up in the morning, so what we're keeping tabs on that as quickly as we can.

One interesting note, too, we got a statement from the minority leader Mark Miller, who you probably heard about in the last 24, 48 hours who Governor Walker has been criticizing heavily. He put out a statement saying that we look forward to joining the people of Wisconsin tomorrow to take up this fight again.

Kind of we've been putting a lot of calls to a lot of these senators, haven't been able to get through so far tonight. But definitely given the impression that perhaps these senators will be coming back to Wisconsin tomorrow.

HILL: That's interesting, Ed. So if they were to come back, would the -- would the rest of the Senate be able to, you know, call a meeting and say, OK, you weren't here yesterday but let's vote on the whole thing? How does that work?

LAVANDERA: That's a good question. Well, you know, we're trying to figure out at this point just exactly what the legislative process is since everything has been changed so dramatically here in the last few hours but, you know, this has been passed out as its own separate bill, so I don't know if you can come back and put it all together with the elements and the parts of the bill that had been stripped out and hadn't been voted on or if that will have to remain its own bill and then try again.

I'm sure the Democratic senators and the Republican senators as well are trying to figure out what the next step will be on those other parts of the bill that have been left out tonight.

SPITZER: All right, Ed, appreciate your reporting on this as these events are unfolding. And we'll get back to you no doubt in the days ahead to see this game as it continues.

All right, thanks so much.

And now we're going to go to Glenn Grothman, who is the assistant majority leader in the Republican-controlled Senate out there in Wisconsin. We have him on the phone, I think, and hopefully he can explain to us what has just happened and why, and why this change of heart about moving so quickly on this.

Senator, do we have you on the phone? Senator Grothman, are you there?

GLENN GROTHMAN (R), WISCONSIN STATE SENATE (via phone): Yes, I'm right here. Can you hear me?

SPITZER: I can, indeed. Thank you so much for joining us amidst all the excitement out there in Madison.

So, first, what happened that made you take this dramatic step and -- then we'll get to some of the challenges that no doubt you're anticipating and then I assume are getting ready for.

GROTHMAN: Well, traditionally in any budget bill you have appropriation provisions and non-appropriation provisions. We knew all along we could break up the non-appropriation parts. We thought it was a little bit of an unusual thing to do. Some of our members were not comfortable doing it right away, they wanted to give the Senate Democrats every chance to come back.

After one more time today we had a forced session in which none of the 14 Senate Democrats would appear. We finally decided we had to go ahead and break it into two parts, which is unfortunate that they've been so adamant not participating but we had to take this unusual step.

CAIN: Senator Grothman, Will Cain here. I just want to follow up on one point you made.

You've known all along that you could break out the collective bargaining rights from Governor Walker's overall bill, and pass with a simple majority.

Why did you wait this long? What changed between yesterday and today? Why do it now?

GROTHMAN: Well, we just wanted to give the Senate Democrats a chance to return. I mean, every day there were rumors they were going to come back, you know, some of us talked to the Senate Democrats on an individual basis. They implied they wish they could come back here. And you know, just every day there were rumors that they were going to come back. There was one day last week which we're told five of them were going to come back.

Finally at the end we finally had to resolve ourself there was nothing that was going to bring them back. And we had to no choice. HILL: I understand -- it's E.D. Hill here. I understand your frustration. However, you did it with two hours' notice. If you legally absolutely believed that you can split these two apart and vote on them separately why not give it the 24-hour notice and have the -- you know the open committee meeting?

GROTHMAN: Well, the committee meeting, first of all, was open. I mean there were several people who were there. You know, we got a lot -- quite frankly, most people watching were hostile to the bill. Any committee hearing room is not an unlimited size. There were obviously many people outside the committee hearing chanting, but there were many people who disagreed with the bill who were present for the hearing.

If you understand a hearing to divide the question is not a public hearing where people testify. It's just a hearing where the five members of leadership vote to bring this bill to the floor. But there was certainly an open hearing. There were certainly people who were there listening to the vote.

SPITZER: All right, Senator, thanks so much for hopping on the phone with us this quickly after all this excitement and we'll be talking with you in the days ahead no doubt. I don't think this story is ending just yet.

And we now have on the phone Chris Larson who is a state senator -- a Democrats state senator out in Wisconsin.

Senator Larson, are you there on the phone?

CHRIS LARSON (D), WISCONSIN STATE SENATE: I am, yes.

SPITZER: You're out there -- you're out in Illinois somewhere. And I don't want to give your location. They may -- I guess they don't need you back anymore. Maybe they'll invite you back and say they're waving the penalties. Who knows? The arrest warrant has been lifted.

So how are you doing today?

LARSON: I just want to be clear, Eliot, I'm in Wisconsin. As soon as I heard that they were going to take up this bill and try to jam this thing through without any Democrats there, I got in my car and sped 80 miles an hour trying to get there as fast as I could. But there was no chance.

There was no notice for us to be able to vote on it. We even get close to the capitol. I got halfway there when I heard that they had just lifted through, limited debate and killed workers' rights for Wisconsin. So I take it's an affront to democracy what they did. I think that Senator Grothman who I just heard saying that oh, we tried to notify them. There was no way to do this.

We put forward a fiscal bill that took out the element that kills workers right. We then took away the no-bid contract giveaways to Walker's donors, took out the politicization of positions throughout the state, and took out the attack on senior care, Medicare and badger care.

And put that bill forward yesterday. What they did today is they slapped the hand away of Wisconsinites and said, we're done listening to you, we're going to do what we want, and we're going kill the middle class by taking away these workers rights.

And it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous what they did and the recalls I think just got a new breath of air behind them.

SPITZER: Look, Senator, first of all, are there other Democratic senators returning to Madison with you? Are you aware or have you been in communication with them? And second, does their action indicate to the public that their claim all along that the need to eliminate collective bargain was driven by the fiscal condition of the state?

Now they've said this is not a fiscal issue otherwise they couldn't pass it. Does it put the lie to their entire argument?

LARSON: Yes, what you saw here was them just finally giving up and throwing their cards on the table. We got a peek at them at first when Walker said -- when Walker had his billion-dollar phone call where he said this was going to be the first domino and he was going to drop a bombshell.

And then we got a piece of them today when Senator Fitzgerald talked to FOX News and said, you know, this is -- we do this, we crush Obama's chances because unions can't do anything and that's what we're trying to do.

So I think they finally got sick of dancing around the issue, threw their cards on the table and said, yes, we're trying to get rid of unions, we're trying to get rid of workers' rights so let's just do it. Let's stop -- let's stop dancing around it and let's do it. And that's what they did.

CAIN: Senator Larson --

LARSON: I think it's incredible.

CAIN: Senator Larson, you and other Democratic senators have maintained all along that you have no problem with the givebacks on the pension funds and the health care bills of public employees.

Your holdout has been and the reason you guys went to Illinois is over the collective bargaining portion of Governor Walker's bill. Now that that is behind us, you said you're on your way back to Madison.

Will you guys, Democrats, convene for a quorum and vote to pass those givebacks on the health care and pension plan?

LARSON: Well, these are the things that were in the bill that they just passed. I mean that they attacked on collective bargaining. The fiscal thing, we're going to have to see because there's still -- obviously Republicans have proved themselves untrustworthy with this tactic, so we're going to have to decide if this is something that we want -- how we're going to go back.

(CROSSTALK)

CAIN: It's possible you guys won't support that proposition now?

LARSON: Well, the unions had come forward and given those concessions and so it's not -- I'm not sure where the negotiations are going to be. Obviously you have -- to have a negotiation you have to have both parties willing to talk in earnest and I think what Republicans showed is they're not willing to do that. They'd rather just jam things through without the other side there.

HILL: Well, I know that a lot has been, you know, said about the democracy being trampled on, but you know, the biggest part of democracy is having the chance to bring up issues, debate them and vote on them, and that was certainly being denied because you weren't in the state.

So I understand the frustration on both sides here, the question is where do you go from here. Is there a legal challenge that you'll be able to file tonight, tomorrow morning, to try to block this action because I understand that the assembly and the governor intend to act tomorrow when they reconvene?

LARSON: Well, that's going to be something that we look at. Obviously Representative Marcus tried to put forward some amendment to this, tried to get some of the public opinions in on this. People had spoken out.

We're going to look at the legal options. I think some of the other things they've done are questionably -- questionable legally and we'll be bringing those things together. I can tell you we're going to be getting together all 14 of us again and discussing how to move forward on this one.

But I think, you know, right now I think they've -- the Republicans gave away all of their cards in showing that they're looking at destroying workers' rights in Wisconsin.

SPITZER: All right, Senator, thank you so much for joining us tonight. And, you know, drive safely, 80 miles an hour isn't a good idea. They'll pull you over for a ticket is my suspicion.

(CROSSTALK)

SPITZER: All right. So Senator, stay safe and we'll talk to you in a couple of days.

And we're going to be joined now by Mahlon Mitchell, who is a Wisconsin firefighter, who is also the president of the Professional Firefighters of Wisconsin. His union represents over 3,000 firefighters in Wisconsin.

Mahlon, welcome back to the show. So what's your reaction to all this as it breaks out? MAHLON MITCHELL, WISCONSIN FIREFIGHTER: Well, I just actually came from the capitol. It's a clear attack on the middle class and workers' rights. This bill that I just got a copy of -- didn't have a chance to read it before they voted on it.

It has nothing to do with balancing the fiscal budget. As a matter of fact, all the fiscal items as you've heard have been taken out, so what does this have to do with helping solve the budget crisis, the $3.6 billion proposed budget crisis in the state of Wisconsin?

It has nothing. It's a clear attack on collective bargaining rights, a clear attack on the middle and a clear attack on workers' rights. And that's what this is about. So they have shown their cards. They have shown what they really are trying to do and they've just done it.

HILL: How did you find out what was going on at the capitol? When did you get word?

MITCHELL: I was actually in my car on the way to a trip and I got a call that they are going to be voting on a bill in two hours at 6:00, so me and my colleague from the police, we came back. Came back to the capitol and by the time we got in, the conference committee was done and they went over to the floor and they voted on it and then obviously you see mayhem is breaking loose now.

And we were not allowed in the room. I know that you did have the senator on -- the Republican senator on that said we were allowed in the room. We were not allowed in the room. We were not even able to speak on the bill. There was nobody able to speak. There are no public hearings.

When Representative Barker asked what was changed in his bill, the only response he got was, well, it's the same bill but some stuff has been taken out.

SPITZER: You know, Mahlon, you're not a lawyer, I don't think. But I'm just mystified by something I'm seeing here in the initial press reports about Wisconsin law. They need to give 24-hour notice to the conference committee members before they meet unless it is impossible or impractical to do that.

Now that seems to be black-letter law, clear as day, in the state of Wisconsin. Have you heard the Republicans explain how they're going to justify not having done that? This -- the way they did this seems to be a clear violation of law to me.

MITCHELL: Well, it's a clear violation of open records law. Like you said, you need 24 hours to have the meeting. You need two hours if it's an emergency. They haven't talked about how they're going to get around that. I think they really don't care.

They want to get this through, shoot it through and get it done. And they're not hearing, they're not listening to the people of Wisconsin. If you look behind me, the capitol is getting flooded again with common Wisconsinites, people that are coming to try to be heard. But the Republicans are not hearing what the people are saying. SPITZER: All right. Mahlon, thank you so much. We'll be chatting in the days ahead and we're going to go to a break right now and we'll be back with just -- in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: We'll be covering the breaking news in Wisconsin throughout the program. The vote to strip public workers of their collective bargaining rights. A shocking development out there. But first the latest from Libya.

We need you. That's the message from the leader of the Libyan interim government and as each day passes without a response from the United States or from anybody else, the situation gets increasingly desperate for the resistance.

We have an exclusive interview, the first television interview ever with the man who was leading the rebellion in Libya, Moammar Gadhafi has sworn to kill him, and we'll hear from him in just a moment.

But first, E.D. and Will, what do you make of that stuff in Wisconsin, pretty remarkable, huh?

CAIN: Yes, yes.

HILL: To me it's incredible, because -- and I'm not really sure who has the public will. And that's the difficult thing, I think, for being outside Wisconsin right now. You had a lot of Republicans voted in this last go-round so are the people supporting this? Do they realize OK, we've got to close this budget gap somehow and we're willing to take whatever action?

It's still -- it's pretty sticky, and I'm not so sure you could say it was impractical or impossible to contact the Democratic senators and bring them back in for this.

CAIN: I just want to say there's a lot of hyperventilating going on right now and talk about attack on workers' rights. Wisconsin just joined, what, 20 some odd other states who -- and the federal government who denied collective bargaining rights to public employees, you might put it, in its proper context.

SPITZER: All right. OK. And they also join the list of states that violate the law wantonly. And we will get back to that later on, guys, no doubt about it.

Anyway, just weeks ago Mustafa Abdul Jalil was Moammar Gadhafi's justice minister. Today he is the leader of the Libyan resistance and Gadhafi's public enemy number one, a man with a $400,000 bounty on his head.

Tonight, in a CNN exclusive our Arwa Damon spoke to Jalil. Here's his desperate plea to the international community.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MUSTAFA ABDUL JALIL, OPPOSITION LEADER (Through Translator): Has to be immediate action. The longer the situation carries on, the more blood is shed. That's the message that we want to send to the international community. They have to live up to their responsibility with regards to this.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: Jalil's resistance fighters are holding out against a series of brutal assaults by Gadhafi's forces.

In Bin Jawad, a critical town on the road to Tripoli they faced yet another day of intense fighting.

Keep in mind these resistance fighters are not an army as you can see in the footage. They are undisciplined, untrained, kind of a bunch of kids with guns. But make no mistake they're united by a fierce drive to force Gadhafi out of office and it's miraculous, really, how much they've accomplished.

Let's go to senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman. He's in the eastern part of Libya and he saw a lot of fighting today.

Ben, what's the latest?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we saw today, Eliot, was a massive barrage by Gadhafi government, artillery and rockets, on to the positions of the anti-Gadhafi forces.

Right outside of Ras Lanuf, it went on for about an hour and a half, just shaking the ground, and one of the things they hit was the oil storage tanks in a facility just to the west of Ras Lanuf and it went up in just huge plume of black smoke and the fire spread causing flames to go towards the heavens.

This is the first time that Libya's oil infrastructure has been damaged in the fighting. And what we're seeing is a far more assertive Libyan government effort to push the rebels back.

The rebels until just recently were actually making progress in gaining territory. Now it appears that they're struggling to hold on to Ras Lanuf and the area around it. It appears the Libyan government is fighting back in a way, not just in the eastern part of the country, but also we see in the west, in towns like Misrata and Zawiya -- Eliot.

SPITZER: You know, Ben, it seems day by day that Gadhafi's forces are using more powerful armaments. They seem to be sending more airplanes up into the skies and using stronger, you know, guns on the ground.

Is this a continuing trend line and if it is, what would explain it?

WEDEMAN: Well, it seems that after the initial shock, I think, of the revolt in which the eastern part of the country simply broke away, I think Gadhafi realizes he's got nowhere to go. It's very unlikely he's going to be able to find refuge, for instance, in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else.

It looks like not only is he determined to stay in power in the western part of the country, but he's trying to make sure that the threat coming from his own people, from the eastern part of the country and those cities around Tripoli, he's going to try to crush it completely. And he shows no inclination or willingness to hold his army back, his forces back.

SPITZER: We now have that one oil tank and we see the images of the black plume of smoke going up to the sky.

Any subsequent attacks that you can tell on the infrastructure of the oil industry so we could kind of believe that Gadhafi is intentionally destroying it or do you think this was one haphazard hit?

WEDEMAN: It's really hard to say. Given, you know, what I've seen of the opposition fighters' sort of lack of experience and training on the use of the weapons, you can't rule out the possibility that that may have been just a stray rocket or artillery round coming from them.

SPITZER: All right, Ben, thank you, as always, for that report.

Let's take a look at the city of Ras Lanuf that Ben Wedeman was just talking about. Ras Lanuf is of strategic importance because of its location. It's in between rebel-controlled Benghazi and Gadhafi controlled Tripoli.

The rebels are trying to move west. Gadhafi's forces trying to move east.

We've brought in our map table and joining me IN THE ARENA, regular Will Cain and retired U.S. General Spider Marks.

General Marks is a veteran of the wars in Iraq and the Balkans, and he runs a company called InVism which has contracts with the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.

General Marks, thank you so much for being here.

GENERAL SPIDER MARKS, INVISM: Thanks. Thanks, Eliot.

SPITZER: To help us understand all this.

Here's the first question. We just heard from Ben Wedeman. Things are looking very dire for the opposition forces. We can look at this map. We see Ras Lanuf. What should we be doing for those rebel forces right now to keep them in this game?

MARKS: Well, frankly, there are a broad range of options that we should be taking on and first and foremost, it's to facilitate this transitional government, this opposition government that's in Benghazi to assure that they don't lose any momentum.

Now that can be done behind the scenes and that can be done with military forces in a very -- I would say a very low-level way. That's first and foremost. What we don't want to be doing is conducting kinetic activities in Libya right now. We don't want to be Velcroed (ph) to this thing.

SPITZER: OK. What do you mean by kinetic?

MARKS: What we don't want to do is institute a no-fly zone.

SPITZER: OK.

MARKS: If we institute a no-fly zone we're going to war against Libya.

SPITZER: OK.

MARKS: That would vilify us in this part of the world. We don't need that type of diversion.

SPITZER: OK. Before we get to the conversation of a no-fly zone, I want to bring in another map which is going to help us understand why this is so regionally important and then we can talk about other military options, as well.

MARKS: Great.

SPITZER: If we can bring in the -- what we call the oil pipes map, it's going to show oil pipes coming out of Ras Lanuf. Is that why this is of such strategic importance both to us and to them, do you think?

MARKS: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think what you're seeing with the rebel forces is they want Gadhafi, they want this looney to go away.

What needs to be determined is what's the next step after that. That's kind of number one. Number two is, what about this oil? It has to continue to flow. It has to remain viable, so that's why Ras Lanuf is extremely important.

CAIN: That's the question I want to ask you about, General, the oil. But first let's set up the map for our viewers here. As you can see, the green controlled cities are controlled by Gadhafi. The blue cities are controlled by the rebels.

General, what we saw early on were the rebels were able to push east almost as far as to Sirte. We saw battles in Sirte. But now it seems to be focusing in on the Ras Lanuf area. Is that simply because geographically they've been pushed back to that area? Or is it because it has strategic importance with the oil?

MARKS: It's both of those. Will, it's both of those.

Gadhafi has finally gotten his military act together.

CAIN: OK.

MARKS: He's been able to get his army and his air force to get involved much more aggressively, and this is extremely important so the flow of oil can continue.

SPITZER: Look, it certainly looks visually -- you see the pipelines concentrating ending up in the city of Ras Lanouf and today there was a bombing from Gadhafi in Asidra where he is beginning perhaps try to take out some of these oil facilities.

Nobody knows if it this is part of a larger campaign. The next map, which shows where the air facilities are or where the airports and the military bases are, we can see and begin to understand what would be involved in a no-fly zone.

Why are you opposed to it? Many people are, of course, saying we should do it. Everybody from John McCain to John Kerry and Joe Lieberman.

MARKS: Certainly Senator McCain knows about air defenses. He's a great American and he's given almost all. The problem with the no-fly zone is that we would have to almost do this unilaterally. We would have to take out Colonel Gadhafi's command and control apparatus, which is throughout the country.

We have to go after his mobile air defenses. Most of those are mobile, but they operate within a certain pattern, within certain areas. So that is very kinetic. Things are going to break. People are going to die and we're going to be completely connected to this.

Now, if I may, the problem that occurs, what happens when one of the pilots gets shot down? How do you do a search and rescue? How do you get that pilot out of here? This could become a real mess. Is that what we want to do at this stage?

CAIN: I have some questions about that, but first I want to ask you exactly what does a no-fly zone mean? We have a map where the different airfields are in Libya. Does it mean literally covering this country with planes making sure no Gadhafi planes get off the ground?

MARKS: No, a no-fly zone means you put designated forces in certain areas inside a box. It's three-dimensional box. You won't go left or right or a certain altitude but have to stay in that box.

SPITZER: Like this box up here. Vertically up to 30,000 feet.

MARKS: Exactly. You break a threshold within that box. In other words, if you don't play by the rules we institute rules of engagement and we have -- whoever is instituting that no-fly zone has to take that entity down.

CAIN: The risk of a no-fly zone, you started to touch on that. What is the risk to American lives to those pilots in imposing a no-fly zone, would we see in your estimation American pilots shot down?

MARKS: Probably not, but you always have that possibility and it exists and must be planned for in detail.

SPITZER: Let me add one fact so that viewers understand. The reason these cities are along the Mediterranean and the reason all the airfields other than the one in Hun, that's where the people are.

People in Libya, live 90 percent of the population right along the Mediterranean for obvious reason, most of it to the south is just desert. I've been reading. There is a military debate about what the costs and risks of a no-fly zone might be.

And somebody has come up with the notion of a standoff no-fly zone where we basically enforce this from the Mediterranean. We use ships and missiles to basically say we can shoot down your planes if they go above 5,000 feet from offshore. Does that sufficiently limit our risk to make it more viable option?

MARKS: Certainly limits the risk, that's exactly right. You don't are to put manned aircraft on top of Libya over these very specific spaces. It always helps to be able to do that but, yes, this can be done from offshore.

SPITZER: You know, I also presume that if the smaller the geographic area, the more limited the risk. So if we wanted to say to the rebels, for instance, and the provisional government, look, you need protection in Benghazi and in your forward position of Ras Lanouf so we're going to just say there's a no-fly zone over Ras Lanouf, limit it to that sort of smaller area then it begins to become a more viable plan, once again, in terms of limiting our risk.

MARKS: Absolutely. You want to define what your military objectives are very, very precisely. Then establish some very clear rules so that the engagement profiles are very clear and can be taken on without much hesitation.

SPITZER: Right, now the reason I ask because I know as you get towards Tripoli there's the greater concern about anti-aircraft weaponry that they possession, which is again would be minimized in Ras Lanouf to the extent that that is controlled on the ground at least currently by the provisional government.

MARKS: Absolutely and I would say that most of Gadhafi's -- and I don't know the classified data, but most of Gadhafi's air defenses are in the vicinity of Tripoli. That's where he is. That's where his palace is.

His command and control apparatus emanates from there, but clearly the other strategic locations is where the oil emanates into the Gulf of Sidra and out to the Med. Those have to be protected and you must assume they are.

CAIN: You voiced some concern about the no-fly zone. I've expressed some concerns on the show, as well. We also talk about the risk. If American pilots are shot down, what do you do? Is the no-fly zone a one-stop shop, is it a neutral concept or is it more a wedge issue that leads to the inevitable larger military invention?

MARKS: I would back off from that one step further and I would say the wedge issue is a broader definition of how the United States specifically, how a coalition whether that's NATO or whether that is a coalition of the willing can get involved to help in a way that doesn't put us in exclusively charge of the outcome.

This is a Libyan rebellion. These are rebels from Libya that want to get rid of Gadhafi and we agree, he should go away, I don't think there's any debate on that at all. He should go away, but what is going to come?

They need to institute that. So I would think a wedge issue could be let's assists this opposition government in Benghazi. What do they need?

SPITZER: Listen to the provisional government. You listen to the guys in the street fighting. We get them on CNN. They are pleading. They're saying, we're desperate. We've been listening to you say you believe in freedom. Now we're here dying for it and you're standing offer dithering. At that level, you are the military guy and do you hear that and say, God, I just want to go in and help them.

MARKS: Of course, you do. Absolutely and the thing I find most ironic is that, here we were looking at the rebellion taking place in Egypt. Mubarak was a very staunch ally for over 30 years. He did our bidding. We pushed him in front of the bus.

So now we have this idiot running this country that has been -- he has no friends. Who are his friends? I want to see this long list of buddies this guy has. Now we're kind of dithering. That's my concern, so that's more a political issue than a military issue.

There's a lot we can do in Libya that would really reduce risk, this could be done -- you could crater facilities in Libya from over the horizon. You don't have to put anybody in harm's way.

CAIN: There's a lot we could do, but you don't think one of those things is a no-fly zone.

MARKS: No, I don't think we should do that.

SPITZER: All right, General Marks, thank you for that eye-opening analysis this. We're going to continue with you I hope in these days ahead in this fascinating and very problematic situation.

Coming up today's Senate vote spells trouble for budget compromises both parties their digging their heels. So why are Washington insiders so optimistic? We'll tell you next coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: Welcome back. Breaking news tonight in case you haven't heard, the Wisconsin Republican Senate has passed a standalone bill taking away collective bargaining rights from all the civil service workers in the state of Wisconsin.

Maybe they carved out the firefighters and the cops, we don't know. I haven't had a chance to actually read the fine print. Doing this without the Democrats, because they said they didn't need the Democrats for a quorum because they stripped it out of the budget bill and made it a standalone bill. Dramatic stuff and we're going to go back now to Madison, Wisconsin, where Ed Lavendera is there and he's surrounded by a bunch of folks who don't seem too happy about what has happened. Ed, sum it up for us.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eliot, these are the protesters that rushed down to the capitol grounds here late tonight as word of this movement here in the capitol was beginning so these are the people who work to get inside of the capitol.

They shut down the doors for the night, but there's still a great deal of anger. Several thousand have shown up tonight. One of the people leading the group, this is Brian Frederick. He is a teacher here in Wisconsin. Here in Madison?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A district nearby.

LAVANDERA: Kind of share with us what your thoughts are tonight about everything that has gone on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First off I'm not a leader of this group. I'm just an individual person that is here protesting a complete breakdown of government Democratic principles.

What we need is Republican leaders to step up in this state and lead, to govern, I teach civics in eighth grade. It is painful to have to report to my classroom and try to present this in a fair and balanced way which I do.

We need government. We don't need division. We do not need political leaders in this country continuing dividing the American people. First it was red states and blue states. Now it's between union and no nonunion. We need to bring people together to solve serious problem, not go after bargaining rights for political issues.

LAVANDERA: Take me back to the last few hours. How did you find out that this is happening?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: E-mail and texts from people at work then I just drove down here. By the time I had gotten here, they had already passed the bill through the special committee or however they have done it.

LAVANDERA: What are you hearing from folks out here? How much longer do you think the anger will last?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's frustration. It's frustration for not having a voice. We have elections but we also have to govern after elections and we're not doing that and, again, this is political division.

This is dividing people and creating scapegoats and it needs to end here in Madison. It needs to end in Wisconsin and it needs to end in this country. We are the United States of America and we need to start acting like it.

We ignore our history. We ignore the importance of unions and we have been knocking down the middle class in this country for the past 20 years. It's time to stop dividing people by income and by job and buy union and nonunion.

LAVANDERA: All right, Brain, thank you very much. Real quick, what do you think happens to all the anger that is out here tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think in this state it's going to show up Saturday morning when you have people from all over the state on tractors walking from Milwaukee to protest not just the bargaining rights, but this budget bill and then it's going to show up on April 5th.

We are having a state Supreme Court election in this state and we're going to be electing county executives and we're going to be electing school boards, but again, the sad part is we have to motivate people by dividing people. It's time to stop. Please, Mr. Governor, stop dividing us. Someone in this Republican Party step up and lead, please.

LAVANDERA: All right, Brian. Thank you very much. Eliot, you can get a good look at the crowd that has shown up here tonight. You look out into the crowd that runs on the northern edge of the capitol grounds here.

The governor's office is actually just around the corner up here and all these people have been banging on the door to the capitol to try to get in. We'll make our way through the crowd a little bit more and see if we can talk to somebody else. Sir, can we talk to you real quick? I guess he didn't want to talk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.

LAVANDERA: Trying to get a sense of what is your thoughts on the way all this has gone on down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a huge disappointment for our state and it's been very painful to think that 18 men can change the rights of the Wisconsin people that have been around for 50 years just like Mark Miller said. I mean, it is -- it is -- I'm from Janesville and I drove up immediately when I heard.

LAVANDERA: I was going to ask how did you find out about this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got an e-mail from our JA -- our union and as soon as I read it I got in the car, picked up a girl friend and I got here.

LAVANDERA: What kind of work do you do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a fourth grade teacher.

LAVANDERA: I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fourth grade teacher.

LAVANDERA: A lot of teachers out here, as well. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that's because we care, you know. We have everything to lose, so we're here.

LAVANDERA: What do you think happens with all the anger out here tonight? Does it continue on, carry over?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. It will carry on. If this continues, if it, indeed, does pass, it will last for century or for, you know, at least 50 to 100 years.

LAVANDERA: Very good. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You bet.

LAVANDERA: Eliot, this is it the scene outside, but as we were talking earlier as the word trickled in and people rushed here to the capitol inside on the second and third floors, there were several hundred -- hundreds if not close to a thousand people inside trying to get inside the committee room area where this was going down.

There are only 20 people allowed into that committee area so there were a lot of people chanting and the yelling inside the capitol building was extremely intense, you see a great deal in that sense of anger really piled inside the courthouse, inside the capitol building here tonight. Eliot.

SPITZER: You know, Ed, it's going to be interesting to see what happens overnight. Even though the Republicans control their Wisconsin assembly, the other chamber that has to pass the bill tomorrow and they're comfortable with their margin there.

If there is an outpouring of anger as you're seeing right there, editorials across the state that whatever they feel about the substance may say this isn't the way to get this done. It may be a very different dynamic the Republican assembly looks at tomorrow and may reconsider this.

So the governor and assembly will be dealing with a dynamic situation and I'm wondering if you've heard anything from them about how that will affect what they do.

LAVANDERA: We just had a brief chance to speak with one of the assembly members while all this was going on. I can't tell you how quickly everything transpired. By the time we got inside the senate court chamber, it took less than ten minutes for the vote to take place and so by the time we got in and set up it was almost time to leave.

I think a lot of those Democratic assembly members trying to figure out, formulate a game plan as to what they'll do next at least from a political and a legislative -- from a legislative point of view so we're trying to reach out as many folks as we can to get a sense of what they'll do next and how they'll handle this.

But I think, you know, the number of people and the crowds that continue to show up here will only intensify, talking to a couple of the union members. You heard the teacher earlier reference it. They have another huge rally planned for Saturday.

So, you know, the idea that this has passed tonight doesn't mean this is over and clearly you get the sense here that a lot of these people aren't going to be going any time soon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's interesting. Tomorrow is the last scheduled regular session day so do they call a special session? How do they progress after this? Ed, I wanted to ask you, where have the Republicans gone? Where is the governor now? Have he had to go out through the throng or are they still inside or do they have a different door to get through?

LAVANDERA: Yes, we haven't seen them out here. It's kind of a chaotic scene if that were to happen. We know -- I'm not even sure if the governor is making it to the capitol building here throughout the day. The communication from our standpoint in talking to them has been very sporadic over the last several days.

The governor did make several appearances across the state once here in Madison today and a couple other cities across the state making his case for what he is doing, but in terms of seeing them around the capitol grounds and inside the capitol building in our time here tonight, we didn't see them outside of making their appearance on the senate floor and left from a different door that we left out of. We didn't see them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ed, it looks like behind you a lot of the crowd is listening to a speaker. Who is it speaking to the crowd and how many people are there have you got an estimate of how many are in the crowd?

LAVANDERA: You know the crowds are all over. This is the area that has been where most of the protesters have shown up. At least there were a lot of people inside. Seem the doors shut and everybody moved outside.

So I would say probably close to a thousand people out here around where we're at and as far as who is speaking, it's been interesting. Kind of comes and goes. Somebody will start talking and then someone will pick up the torch and carry on so it just kind of depends on who is moved to carry the torch and rally the troops out here.

SPITZER: Ed, do you have any idea -- they're planning to stay the night and sort of continue through and I hear the singing. Clearly there is quite a powerful movement out there. What is the intention? Is there anybody leading this operation right now?

LAVANDERA: No, you know, it's been interesting. Every time you go -- we walk around, different leader of a union group or someone who is handling media for a union group will come up to us. In the last hour or so I've gotten three or four or five different business cards from folks who represent various unions so you can see it's a hodgepodge.

However, what is interesting is that they've been here so long that they've kind of created -- seem to have created a network to communicate with each other so we see a lot of that happening and talked to a couple other people who said the power of e-mail and Facebook out here tonight and really what spurred so many people to come racing down here as soon as word fanned out across the region across the state that the vote was going to take place.

SPITZER: All right, Ed. Thanks so much. We'll check back with you later and be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: Welcome back and we're going to go back to Wisconsin in a moment. If you haven't heard the breaking news, the Wisconsin Republican Senate out of nowhere surprising everybody passing a standalone bill that deprives civil service workers in Wisconsin of the collective bargaining right everybody has been fighting over for seemingly months now.

What they did was take that issue out of the budget bill so they no longer needed the supermajority quorum. I know that sounds like a lot of league gobbledygook. So the Democrats are often Chicago or Illinois somewhere. They said we don't need you anymore and passed it on their own saying it's a standalone bill.

We don't need you. Word is the Republican assembly tomorrow will pass the bill and no doubt it would be signed immediately thereafter by Governor Walker who has been pushing for this.

The response has been enormous and we're going to go back to Ed Lavandera who's right outside the capitol with what appears to be an enormous crowd of people, not many whom if anybody are happy about this. In fact, they are downright angry. Ed, what's going on?

LAVANDERA: They absolutely are, Eliot. We found another teacher here, sir, tell me your name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nathan O'Shaughnessy.

LAVANDERA: Where do you work?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I teach at Madison Memorial High School.

LAVANDERA: What brought you out? Did you come out just as soon as you heard what's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually I was at school, 6:30 and I heard that the bill had passed and came right down.

LAVANDERA: Came right down. You're obviously a union member?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

LAVANDERA: What do you make of how this has gone done tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this proves this was never about the budget or what I make or the benefits I have. It's all about just union busting and it's shameful, I think. LAVANDERA: How quickly has word spread? I mean, by the time you came out of school tonight had everybody that you talked to kind of had heard the news?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, absolutely, like the text messaging was off the hook. My students on Facebook facebooked me and so we came right down. I was shocked by this action by the Republicans and it's obvious they don't know what this is doing. They have no care about working people in this state and thank God for the Democrats who are gone and still fighting for us.

LAVANDERA: I guess the big question is what happens next or what do you hope happens next?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we're assuming to keep protesting and this means the recall efforts will just be exponentially going.

LAVANDERA: I was talking to one guy who had been here yesterday or had been here from the very beginning, one of the protesters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

LAVANDERA: And frankly he leaned up against the wall and said we're tired. We're tired. Do you sense -- or is this reinvigorating people?

NATHAN O'SHAUGHNESSY, UNION TEACHER: We are tired and all week at school, we've had young teachers in tears because they realize they cannot afford to be teaching here anymore. Had a 14-year teacher in Madison with a master degree and questioning whether I can afford to stay in Wisconsin especially without my rights to bargain at the table in good faith with my employer.

And it's really sad. I mean the number of retirements that are happening and the number of good teachers that are young who are leaving the profession is astounding.

LAVANDERA: One last question. If you could say something to Governor Walker tonight, what would it be?

O'SHAUGHNESSY: Please, Governor Walker, at least come to the table and talk with us. You don't know what you're doing to public education. Well, you do.

You're trying to privatize it, but please rethink what you're doing to the public education that's been so great in this country. You have a lot of working people in the state who are counting on you to at least come to the table and bargain.

LAVANDERA: I appreciate it. Thanks for your time. And, Eliot, it's interesting right here. I think a lot of people still hanging out here trying to get inside the capitol just a little while ago. A group of people had heard that maybe a door that opened and went off running. I don't know what came of that, but it's kind of interesting to see how everything is going to - unfolding here tonight. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been fascinating listening to you talk to the folks out there protesting. One of the guys you talked to earlier, another teacher, civics teacher said, you know, people need to come together. That's what America is all about, working together instead of tearing people apart, hitting unions against nonunion.

But in Wisconsin where the vast majority of workers are no nonunion, is that what's happening? I'm wondering, at the protest tonight, have you run into anybody who is nonunion or is it all union workers out there you found so far?

LAVANADERA: Well, actually it was interesting, but right before we interviewed this last gentleman we talked to one woman who we were going to come to right out of the break and right before we were going to come on I was asking what union you're in. What do you do?

She said I'm not a union member so I did. I spoke with a woman coming up here for the last three weeks who isn't a union member as well so you definitely see that kind of support. And really one of the interesting ways that there's support out here, as well, remember, under the way had collective bargaining bill is written police and firefighters here in the state are not affected.

But you have seen the police and firefighters unions out here showing their support as well so that's been kind of an interesting dynamic to watch, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, Ed, you've been out moderating this day to day. I've seen some polling data and E.D. raises the question how does this played in the world of nonunion members?

The data I've seen and tell me if I'm wrong about this is that about 60 percent of the Wisconsin public opposes what the governor is doing so that opposition would seem to span folks in the union as well as those not in the union. Is that sense you have? You're obviously on the ground there in Madison?

LAVANDERA: We've seen some of those polls done by groups here in Wisconsin. What's interesting is when the Democrats did the negotiations really started falling apart last week, it was about the time those polls were coming out.

And we spoke with a couple of senators invigorated by those numbers and perhaps if they were leaning to come back toward the end of last week those poll numbers they say reinforced they felt they were on the right side of this and that's perhaps one of the reasons why they felt comfortable staying away the majority of this week, as well.

I guess we anticipate they're coming back tomorrow, but you know, they really got a sense of that and they have been making that argument politically. They feel in the long run this is causing more damage to the Republicans.

Obviously, when you talk to Republicans they don't agree with that at all and say in the long term when people see the benefits of what they're doing that people will come back over to their side if these polls are accurate.

So but definitely in some of the senators we've talked to you get definitely the sense they're seeing those numbers and even if it's not their own internal polling they're leaning on it and putting a great deal of weight on it and importance to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got about 45 seconds left. We talked to Democratic senator little earlier who said he was racing at 80 miles an hour back to Madison. Have you seen any Democratic senators who have been on the lam show up yet at the capitol?

LAVANDERA: No, not here tonight. If they've been here we haven't seen them. I don't think they're around just yet.

SPITZER: All right, Ed. Thank you so much for that reporting. It sounds to me like this story is going to be continuing for a couple of hours at least.

It could be fascinating to see what happens tomorrow when the governor returns to a public at least, the capitol that is none too happy. All right, guys. Fascinating night. Thank you all for watching. "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" starts right now.