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In the Arena

Deadly Southern Weather; Birther Issue

Aired April 27, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELIOT SPITZER, HOST: Good evening. I'm Eliot Spitzer. Thanks for joining us IN THE ARENA.

Here are the questions we're drilling down on tonight:

President Obama shows the world his birth certificate. But believe it or not, that's not enough for the birthers.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump -- and this will shock you -- is taking credit for the president's move.

But now new questions: What is Trump's latest beef with the president's past?

Also, after a devastating week in Afghanistan, has the time come for us to face the ugly truth, that we've already lost the war? I'll take a hard look with Fareed Zakaria.

And Moammar Gadhafi has a bunch of new recruits. He's training children to fight for him. Is our policy in Libya ever going to bring regime change?

But, first, tonight, breaking news: right now, dangerous tornadoes are spreading across Alabama, many of them on the ground even as we speak. And we're hearing reports of devastation in cities and towns across the state. Perhaps the hardest hit, Tuscaloosa. We're hearing stories of many houses and buildings leveled.

Take a look at this one. One tornado was seen on a live camera tonight in Tuscaloosa. Unbelievable footage.

Chad Myers has been tracking these devastating storms for days. He joins us now from the severe weather center in Atlanta.

Chad, what are you seeing?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Eliot, I have tornado warnings from New York state to Washington, D.C., Richmond, Virginia, all the way down to Atlanta. Now, not every warning means a tornado's on the ground. It just means that storms are spinning and they could be on the ground. But up here in Chemung, all the way Richmond, Virginia, back to Danville, we pick it up again where storms are really spinning and they could be on the ground in parts of Tennessee, through Alabama, all the way down to about Enterprise, Mississippi. I want to just go back to this video. It's so amazing. This was coming off of a tower cam from a Birmingham TV station. And they were looking at their tower cam in Tuscaloosa. As it rolled across the city, it just devastated some suburbs, especially south of the University of Alabama.

Now, you have to understand, University of Alabama was right there, almost in the path. But it was just south of the stadium and it moved to the east. And as it moved to the east, a little bit north and east, it moved eventually into Hueytown, Alabama, and then just to the north and the northern suburbs of Birmingham, Alabama. The devastation is widespread. We don't even have a handle on it yet.

I will be honest. We don't have a handle on how much damage has actually been done. And it's still going on. These storms are still on the ground. Tornadoes are still touching down near Eoline, just another storm south of Birmingham, that's about Alabaster.

I can't tell you how big these storms are, like F-3, F-4, maybe an F-5. That would be 200 miles per hour. We've seen some of the video, some of the Doppler radar numbers saying 177 miles per hour. That's from a Doppler looking at the radar, looking at the tornado. And this is going to be one very ugly night across parts of Alabama, Mississippi, and eventually even into Atlanta, Georgia, just not here just yet.

SPITZER: Look, Chad, you said we don't really know how big and how quickly they move. But give us a sense of dimension. How far -- you know, we saw what seem to be that funnel going across Tuscaloosa. How big is that across? Do we know? Can you tell from that footage? And traditionally, how big a tornado like that would be?

MYERS: I would say in Tuscaloosa and as it moved to the east of there, from a quarter of a mile wide. So, that would be three to four city blocks being devastated, knocked down literally, then moving to the east at one half mile wide. That's about how big it was when it got to Hueytown.

So, a half a mile, almost like a half mile wide bulldozer just taking out everything in its path. We know there are injuries. We know that there are worse than that. We just don't have a number on it right now. It's only happened literally an hour ago. I know you have more experts to talk to.

SPITZER: Look, I'm going to go to the mayor of Tuscaloosa in a moment. But I just got a couple critical questions I got to ask you, Chad. When you give those wind speeds, 170 miles an hour. That is inside that funnel. So anything in there is just, what, destroyed? I mean, what can withstand 170 miles an hour wind pressure?

MYERS: I would say the inside room which might be a closet of a well-built brick home may still be there after that happens. So, that's why we say you must be inside your home in the small room, away from windows. That's the only part of the structure that might still be there. We have reports -- it's kind of a strange word, but we have reports of buildings being literally scraped from their foundation. The buildings are not there any longer. We don't know what happened to the people inside. We hope they were in the basement.

SPITZER: Absolutely horrifying. Last question because I want to get to the mayor -- it seems to me, watching the enormity of this storm, as you said, it goes all the way down from New York down into Alabama -- are there more of these tornadoes breaking out in the past couple of days? I'm not -- you know, I'm not the expert on this obviously. What explains this phenomenon right now?

MYERS: There are 94, right now, and there will be more. There are 94 reports of tornadoes today alone. That's an amazing, amazing breakout.

Here's what happened. In the past couple of days, the jet stream has been like this. And it hasn't moved. When the jet does this, Eliot, you can get moisture from the Gulf of Mexico, but you can still get cold air from the north.

Warm and cold clashing together make uplift of that warm moist air, rising air makes big clouds. So, those clouds make tornadoes.

SPITZER: And, you know, last -- I've just got to understand, what turns this severe thunderstorm into a tornado going around like that top to create these enormous winds that is so devastating and so destructive?

MYERS: Sure. What we had today was big time -- they're called mesocyclones. All they means is that the entire cell is rotating. It is a super cell tornado. That's one right there. It's rotating. Here's another super cell tornado right there, rotating with the tornado on the ground and there's another one.

What happens is that when you have a line of weather with storms all the way down, the storms fight each other. They can't get going. They're all just kind of like battling tops.

Some storms are trying to spin. The other's spinning the other way. And they just battle each other out and they don't get severe.

When you have a storm all by itself like that one, like that one, like that one and that one, they become these super cells. They become the big dog. They can use all the energy, they can use all the moisture, all the instability, and they become the rotating super cell tornadic thunderstorms that typically we talk about in the Midwest and tornado alley. This we call Dixie Alley.

SPITZER: All right. And, Chad, just last time -- if folks are out there and think a tornado's about to hit in their town or wherever they are, what's the best advice you can give them?

MYERS: Well, that's great because this isn't over. This is by no means over. This is going to go all the way through tonight. And now that it's getting dark, they're harder to see. You can't spot them, don't go out and look. If you hear anything, if you hear the tornado warning, you need to be inside.

The best thing to do is to make sure you have that NOAA weather radio and make sure it's on. If it goes off, you need to be in a building. You need to be at the lowest level. Basement's best.

Some houses don't have basements. But you need to be on the lowest level possible. Get to know your first floor neighbors if you're in an apartment. Be inside a place where there are no windows that could break and cut you as well.

Sometimes the only living part of a house is that inner structure. And we hope that's where people were, especially in Tuscaloosa and Hueytown.

SPITZER: All right, Chad, thanks so much for that wise advice. Hope folks are listening. We'll be coming back to you later on the show.

Joining me now on the phone is Walter Maddox, who's the mayor of Tuscaloosa, Alabama. His city is right in the path of these monster storms. It's been hit real hard.

Mayor, thank you for joining us. Tell us how bad has it been. What -- give us a sense of the enormity of the damage that's been done.

MAYOR WALTER MADDOX, TUSCALOOSA, ALABAMA (via telephone): Well, the enormity is right, Eliot. We've got a path of destruction right now. We don't know the full extent of it. But in areas, it's more than half a mile wide. It's really obliterated blocks and blocks of this city.

SPITZER: And is there loss of life? Have you been able to get any clarity? Are people missing? Are there people injured? People who are simply not, you know, haven't been found because of the power of this storm?

MADDOX: Well, we know of one fatality. We know of injuries related to this storm. This storm not only has cut a path of destruction through our city, it's also inhabited a lot of city services, our police station, our EMA, several police precincts, our environmental services department were all hit.

So, we have to restore communication. So, it has been for us a journey to get to the point where we can begin a full damage assessment. I'm meeting with my command team at 7:30. At 8:30, I'll be meeting with the media to provide all the information that we have available.

SPITZER: Mr. Mayor, I've just got to tell you -- we have live on the screen footage from your city. And it looks as though some parts of the city have been reduced to rubble. I mean, it is absolutely shocking what we are seeing. You know, it is frightening to think that's warehouses and stores and commercial activity used to be. Things are just completely destroyed.

Has the tornado moved through? Are there still warnings more might be coming through your city?

MADDOX: It appears from the National Weather Service, we have cleared the danger zone in terms of weather. I've grown up my entire life here in the city of Tuscaloosa. And today, when I went out after the storm, there were parts of the city that I literally did not recognize because of the destruction that came upon from these tornadoes.

SPITZER: And I understand the governor has -- I believe, am I right the, governor has declared a state of energy. So, does that mean you'll be able to get, you know, National Guard and any other assistance you need at this point?

MADDOX: I just spent quite some time with the governor. He's authorized National Guard units which will be deployed in the city tomorrow, which will be big assistance, and he's placed every resource of the state, including contacting the president for additional resources. This is a journey that we cannot complete alone. And so, we're going to need the help of state and federal resources to help Tuscaloosa return to normalcy sometime in the near future.

SPITZER: You know, I don't know if you saw it -- were you there? Did you actually see this tornado go through?

I mean, we're looking at the footage on the camera that was taken from the sky cam in Tuscaloosa. It is absolutely shocking. It looks like something that Hollywood would have created. I mean, this is just a vision of horror.

Were you outside? Did you see any of this?

MADDOX: I was in my office which is about -- probably about a quarter of a mile from the tornado path. We're watching it via our traffic camera network and as we followed it through the city, it was a very surreal moment to think here you are watching this tornado, yet it's cutting a path through this community that you love so much. And so, yes, indeed it was a surreal moment.

But now, our entire focus is on recovery. And we're going to -- we've got a long road. This will not be an easy process because of the destruction is widespread and I can't -- it's hard to describe what I've seen and that's happened to Tuscaloosa.

SPITZER: Did you hear even though you're not in the path of the storm? Did you hear it kind of rumbling through? I mean, describe for us if you can the sensation of seeing this tornado or hearing this tornado sort of not far from you just kind of creating this path of destruction.

MADDOX: Well, we did not hear it. I was on the balcony outside city hall and finally, city hall security made me go downstairs into the basement area while it came over so I did not hear it.

SPITZER: Well, you know, we just had our Chad Myers on air who is saying to everybody and I hope folks pay attention to this -- if a tornado goes through, the best thing to do is to get down to that ground floor, get as low down in the building and as interior as you can. Again, yet you don't have any reports of what the loss of life or injuries has been in the city of Tuscaloosa?

MADDOX: We know of one report of fatality. We are -- I'm meeting with my command team at 7:30. Many of the essential services -- you can appreciate this as a former governor, many of our essential services have been hit -- which is one thing we do is look internally to get the resources and then get it out externally into our neighborhood and businesses affected by this tornado.

SPITZER: All right. Mayor, well, thank you so much for joining us, and good luck in the recovery. And I'm sure you'll be getting every assistant you can from your state and also from Washington. All right, thanks for joining us.

MADDOX: Thank you, Eliot.

SPITZER: All right. We'll be checking back with Chad Myers later on in the show and keeping you updated on the tornadoes throughout the program.

But, first, is that word birther actually a code word for racist? That charge is being thrown around an awful lot. We'll talk about that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: With everything going on in the world -- wars, tornadoes, a stagnant economy, the one issue the president addressed in his comments today, his birth certificate. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I'm confident with the American people and with America's political leaders can come together in a bipartisan way and solve these problems. We always have. But we're not going to be able to do it if we are distracted. We're not going to be able to solve our problems if we get distracted by sideshows and carnival barkers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: Donald Trump, of course, has made President Obama's birth certificate his signature issue.

Today, CNN's John King went to New Hampshire to see if Trump would finally put the issue to rest. Things got just a little bit heated. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You raised this, saying the president should release this --

DONALD TRUMP, REAL ESTATE MAGNATE: No, no, you raised this. Excuse me, you raised this -- KING: No, I did not raise this. I didn't call a press conference in Palm Beach early this week.

TRUMP: Excuse me, you raised this. And every time I sit down with the press, all they want to talk about is the birth certificate. And I got him to do something that nobody else could get him to do and I've been given great credit for that.

KING: And you raised this issue of his credibility. That if he has it, he should release it.

TRUMP: Absolutely.

KING: There are some people who question yours in the middle of all this. The other night, you went on "ANDERSON COOPER" and you said your investigators told you it was missing or it wasn't there.

TRUMP: Excuse me.

KING: What was that based on?

TRUMP: Excuse me. Very simple. I have people looking into it. Now, I don't have to have the people -- I can call them back. I hope.

I mean, I haven't seen this. And I'm sure a lot of expert will analyze it --

(CROSSTALK)

KING: -- if serious people told you it was missing or not there, here it is, here it is.

TRUMP: Will I pay them? I don't know, maybe I'll let you negotiate that for me, OK?

I can say this -- let me just tell you, I don't make up anything. Let me tell you something, I have done a great service to the American people. I got him to release a birth certificate that he should have done three years ago and four years ago, and he didn't do it. And if you remember, he said, oh, no, no, there's no such thing as a birth certificate. It doesn't matter. They don't have it. There is no such thing.

He were saying the live -- the certificate of live birth was the only thing that mattered. Hawaii doesn't have that. All of a sudden, Hawaii has it? Sort of strange.

KING: He said he didn't think he needed to release it.

TRUMP: Excuse me, he keeps saying about the certificate of live birth was all they have --

KING: He said it should be good enough --

TRUMP: Excuse me, John, he kept saying the certificate of live birth was all they have in Hawaii. They don't have birth certificates in Hawaii. And I said he was wrong. Guess what? I turned out to be right.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SPITZER: OK, Donald. If there are some people who, despite the evidence, will never believe that the president was born in this country.

CNN's Brian Todd has been talking to the die-hard birthers today.

Brian, what are you hearing?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eliot, the people leading the charge in the so-called birther movement are not letting go. Still raising questions about the president's citizenship, saying this release today was a good first step, but they still have some lingering doubts -- serious doubts they say.

One of them I interviewed was Joseph Farah, who is CEO and editor in chief of WND.com. It used to be called World Net Daily. He's been leading the charge on this. He once led a petition to have the president, you know, release the records about his birth.

He has two outstanding issues, at least two that he raised. The first one has to do with Barack Obama's father. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH FARAH, CEO/EDITOR IN CHIEF, WND.COM: We know his father was a Kenyan citizen and that he would therefore confer Kenyan or U.K. citizenship on his son, which would at best make him a dual citizen. Dual citizenship is not what the Founders had in mind when they coined the phrase natural born citizen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: Farah then raised a question about Barack Obama's stepfather named Lolo Soetoro and his relationship with Obama later in life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FARAH: Barack Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro later in his life and moves to Indonesia. Well, this further complicates it because why wasn't the birth certificate amended as is the norm when an adoption takes place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: Now, it's never been quite clear whether Lolo Soetoro ever formally adopted Barack Obama and CNN has actually found no evidence to support either of those assertions by Joseph Farah and no evidence to show that President Obama was not and has never been an American citizen, Eliot.

But you have it there, the birther movement still not letting go of this. They're still raising questions about his birth, about his citizenship -- now connecting it to his father and his stepfather.

SPITZER: You know, Brian, for some people, facts simply don't matter and I think we've got to realize that. And, you know, on top of this, it now seems they're not letting go of the birther issue and they have issues about how he went, got into college, where he went to college. You know, they just won't stop. Tell us about this new crusade they're on.

TODD: Well, you know, Donald Trump has now done a pivot towards those very issues. He is now questioning the president's college records.

He said, you know, the word is, according to what I've read, this is a Trump quote, that he was a terrible student when he went to Occidental. He then gets into Columbia. And then he gets into Harvard. Well, how do you get into Harvard if you're not a very good student? I really wish he would release his records.

You know, it's not clear what records Mr. Obama has released and not released at this point about his college experience. But, you know, Donald Trump is pivoting to this now. He's raising this as an issue.

There are a lot of people who think Trump is doing this to kind of raise the ratings for his show "The Celebrity Apprentice." They've got sweeps coming up next month. That he's really just kind of toying with the whole idea of running for the presidency. He is taking a lot of credit, as you just saw with John King's interview with him. He's taking a lot of credit for the release today of this birth certificate. He's now pivoting to the college records. We'll see if that's got any legs.

SPITZER: All right. Brian, I don't know if he's pivoting or just spinning so fast you can't even see what he's doing. Anyway, you know, great work. Thanks for that coverage.

It is amazing what anybody will say. Look, it's obvious there's a political angle to this birther story. But is there also a racial angle?

Two people who have been asking these hard questions, radio host Stephen A. Smith and Thomas Frank, "Harper's Magazine" contributor and author of "The Wrecking Crew."

Let me get right to the author of this book. This birther stuff that dominated the airwaves for week, months, years -- finally, we have a birth certificate, it's over, it's done. But what drove it? Was it race? Was this just racism pure and simple?

STEPHEN A. SMITH, NATIONALLY SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: First of all, obviously, race has something to do with it. It always does to some degree.

To sit there and say that everybody who disagrees with Barack Obama or to say that people that was pushing this birther movement per se are all racists I think is irresponsible and uncalled for. It's a bit excessive.

What I will tell you is this. There are people that are inherently fearful of the kind of America they believe he wants, whether you're talking about Medicare and Medicaid, Social Security, the economy, the list goes on and on -- they believe this man that happens to be the president of the United States of America is endangering the life they knew America to be all about, and I think that's --

(CROSSTALK)

THOMAS FRANK, "THE WRECKING CREW": They're putting a very particular spin on it, OK? Well, think about the words that they use to describe his otherness, his alienness, his exoticness. They always go to the word socialism and then --

SMITH: What's the reason for that? Allow me to interject. There's a reason for that. And again, it goes back to that fear because if you touched on the fear -- over 50 million people voted against, even though 69 million-plus people voted for Barack Obama, over 50 million voted against him. And a lot of that is fear.

It's about what works, Governor Spitzer. It's about what works. So, in other words, if you're leaning towards something that could be deemed somewhat racist or have some kind of racial undertones about it, for me, sometimes -- it's one thing for you to be that way inherently. It's another thing to say, you know, something, 50-plus million people voted against this man, we're looking for this man to run for re-election in 2012 -- this strategy might work. Perhaps it's something we might consider employing.

It is what it is.

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: It's also humiliating to the president. He has --

SMITH: It wasn't humiliating at all. It was trivial. It was petty. It was silly, like he said.

SPITZER: But it worked as he said.

SMITH: But it was working. That's what he was talking about.

SPITZER: I want to challenge that premise in a minute. But I want to say, will -- now that we have a birth certificate, will people kind of say, OK, I'm convinced?

SMITH: No.

SPITZER: Or are they going to stick to their guns?

FRANK: They're already moving on to the next thing like how did they get into college, right?

SMITH: I was listening to someone on the radio this morning talk about there's a difference between a natural born United States citizen and somebody who has -- what did they call it, naturalization. So, in other words, the fact that Barack Obama's father is from Kenya, if you look at the Constitution, I forget what chapter and verse they used, they say, oh, my goodness, it's naturalization. So, there's a difference.

And I'm like, really? So, they're reaching for something else now. Why? Because anything for it to work so the man can get voted out of office. That's the agenda.

FRANK: That's exactly right. But the way this is going to be played out is they've got, you know, I think in a certain way, they got Obama running scared here.

Do you remember when the Shirley Sherrod business came out? They fired her without even listening to her side of the story. I mean, they listened but they didn't believe it. You know, they didn't even wait for the unedited speech of hers to come out. They just like bam, the right has got something on us, you're gone --

SPITZER: What you're saying is so hugely important. This is the big lie. And the big lie gains credence because it is repeated with a bigger and bigger megaphone over and over. And people want to believe it and once you shot it down, as you said, they're on to the next.

There is a phenomenon. There will be a core, the 50 million who voted against him, are probably going to vote against him next time politically. The question is: can he keep the 60 million, whatever the precise number, who voted with him. And will there be some group on that side who will be now firmer in their support with him because they're saying this is cheap, this is ugly, we're going to stick with our guy?

SMITH: Let me tell you where the right in this particular instance have screwed up royally. This is where they did it, because with so many important issues to fall back on, to legitimately attack this president, you pick this. And not only that, you're willing to put anybody who will validate those suspicions front and center to make your case.

The American people have historically shown especially in times of strife, when you are willing to engage is such silliness and pettiness, they will make you pay. That's why I think he shouldn't have come out with the birth certificate now. I think it would have been --

(CROSSTALK)

SPITZER: What you're saying is that I think Donald Trump got a momentary big bump because he grabbed this issue. But I think he now goes over the cliff as most Americans reject this and say, this was silly.

SMITH: Donald Trump never went over the cliff because Donald Trump loves the camera. I like Donald Trump a lot, but I happen to know how much he loves the camera and the fact he's got a lot of camera time of this, "Celebrity Apprentice" is doing quite well and he got a lot of publicity because of his --

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: I think that the president should have left a lot more Republicans climb on

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: -- before he saw it enough.

SPITZER: Maybe so. But to your point, is that, at the end of the day, they're not going to win on this issue and it will, in fact, perhaps --

SMITH: But they could have lost significantly --

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: Come on, guys, the culture wars have been gold mines for the Republicans for decades now. And this is just -- understand, this is just a part of this. When they say about Barack Obama that he fakes his enthusiasm for baseball, that he doesn't really believe in coal mining, that he thinks America is the problem, that he believes he's a citizen of the world. This is all part of a larger critique --

SMITH: Here's my problem with a lot of folks on radio and television I hear talking about this. You allow this issue to become life. I thought to myself, wait, what if folks just came back and kept harping on the fact that Al Gore got more votes than George W. Bush? That's a bigger issue to me than the issue about his birth certificate. Yet, we pick and choose what to add substance to and what to trivialize. And I'm just saying to myself, wait a minute, you know, we've got to put a stop to this kind of nonsense and make sure we hold folks accountable for discussing the real issues and not allowing something like this to gain life.

SPITZER: You're exactly right. That's where we're going to end this conversation.

Guys, thank you for being here.

SMITH: All right.

SPITZER: Coming up, we'll check in with the director of emergency services in the devastated state of Alabama, where tornadoes are striking even as we speak. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: We're going to Alabama for the latest in the deadly tornadoes that have been striking all evening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER (voice-over): Take a look at this tornado in Tuscaloosa caught on a live camera. That city was almost levelled by a mile-wide full cloud. Amazing footage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: On the phone with me now is Art Faulkner, Alabama Director of Emergency Management Services. Mr. Faulkner is in Clanten, Alabama. Sir, where is Clanten compared to Tuscaloosa? Are you close to where these tornadoes have been wreaking havoc?

ART FAULKNER, DIRECTOR, ALABAMA EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT SERVICES (via telephone): Well, we're located about 40 miles north of Montgomery at our Emergency Operations Center, which is pretty much in the geographical center of the state. The city of Tuscaloosa is to our northwest just a little bit.

SPITZER: And what reports are you getting not only from Tuscaloosa but elsewhere, and we are seeing footage that is absolutely shocking, parts of Tuscaloosa just simply levelled. Just sheer rubble there where houses and buildings used to be. What reports are you getting about damage, lives lost and then what is happening right now across the state?

FAULKNER: Well, Eliot, you know, these storms have been moving through the state since early this morning before daylight. We got our first fatality shortly after sunrise this morning up in northeast Alabama.

And unfortunately our confirmed casualty count is up to 25 in the state right now and we still have a large number of people missing in multiple counties.

SPITZER: Twenty five deaths confirmed at this point, my goodness. Are these tornadoes still breaking out? Have they moved through? Are they dissipating? What has been told to you about how severe the weather is right now?

FAULKNER: These are still deadly storms. They are still moving through, the north and central part of the state. And, you know, people need to take cover.

If they're watching this right now, if they're anywhere north of Birmingham, they need to be watching the weather and they need to be taking cover immediately in a very sturdy structure if not an approved storm shelter.

SPITZER: You know, Art, I'm glad you mentioned that. We've been saying the same thing, get to the ground floor, we're told, and get inside, in a very strong structure, away from windows and away from beams that will fall on you.

Now I hear you were on the phone with FEMA just shortly ago. What is FEMA telling you about their ability to show up quickly with the resources that you need to help those who are now without homes, without power, without any of the basic necessities of life?

FAULKNER: Well, we have been communicating with FEMA throughout the day, through our regional administrator in Atlanta. We've been keeping him apprised of the situation.

The governor has signed a request for the president to declare an emergency here in Alabama to open up some additional resources to augment our national guard.

And other first responders on the ground here, and, you know, we have been assured by FEMA that they will be looking at this first thing in the morning to provide us any assistance that they can.

SPITZER: You know, these pictures absolutely shocking. As I said, I don't know if you can actually see it because you're just on the phone with us.

But last question, do you have any idea how many people are homeless? Obviously, the death is what racks one soul, but how many people homeless, how many homes destroyed if you know?

FAULKNER: Well, we do not know because we are still focused on our safety measures. We are trying to do assessments of homes to make sure people are not trapped in those. We're not only dealing with Tuscaloosa on the western side of the state on the Mississippi line.

But we currently have tornadoes on the ground in northeast Alabama in Dekalb County moving into Georgia, so, you know, we've got several areas that are very hard hit that have not only been hit by massive tornadoes once but up to three times today.

So, you know, we're out there trying to do life safety, make sure that we're identifying the injuries and dealing with the people that are missing.

SPITZER: All right, our thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep up with it. It's devastating. Good luck. We'll be checking back with you.

FAULKNER: Thank you, Eliot.

SPITZER: All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: We have just received frightening new pictures that tell the story of Gadhafi's cruelty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER (voice-over): Gadhafi's press people took our Fred Pleitgen out to a training camp southeast of Tripoli. There, he saw civilians to the press people called volunteers, many of them children getting war training.

Young children with automatic weapons, girls assembling rifles, truly a frightening scene and a stark reminder why President Obama has said with great clarity, Gadhafi must go.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SPITZER: Back at home, President Obama shaking up his national security team. Leon Panetta, the current CIA director will take over for the outgoing Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Taking Panetta's place at the CIA will be General David Petraeus. General Petraeus is in command of our forces in Afghanistan and was the architect of the successful surge in Iraq.

Joining me to talk about what this means from Washington is James Woolsey, former director of the CIA who's currently teaching at Yale. And in Cambridge, Massachusetts, David Gergen, CNN's senior political analyst.

David, let me begin with you. Do you see in this shake-up any policy shift? I mean, let's face it, it's been a horrendous week in Afghanistan, a jailbreak.

And then reports of this meeting between the president of Pakistan and Afghanistan where they're almost getting together to kick the United States out.

Does any of this portend a shift or is this just good people taking over new positions?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Eliot, it portends far more continuity than shifts. So there are always unpredictability when new people move into roles. You know, if someone may come up with a new way of thinking about things.

But Leon Panetta and David Petraeus have been major architects of the national security policies and they'll continue that in different seats. You know, I think in Afghanistan, David Petraeus is going to continue to support that.

Leon Panetta has supported drone strikes as, you know, Jim Woolsey will tell you and can say in nor more detail. But I also think to go to your point, these are people with very, very good reputations in Washington.

Leon Panetta is a budget cutter. Something that President Obama thinks he needs at defense. Leon Panetta knows politics. He knows the Hill. He knows White House. He was White House chief of staff. He'll be very close to Hillary Clinton at the State Department. They work with the Clintons closely. He's traveled extensively, 200,000 miles, CIA director, very popular at the agency.

General Petraeus, of course, is a class by himself. There is a lot of speculation here. This was more about trying to keep Petraeus inside the tent then letting him go outside the tent. I thought he would make an ideal chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Chairman of the CIA had not occurred to me, but he'll be very good there too.

SPITZER: Jim, let me pivot to you for a moment, if this is continuity, is that a good thing? Do you think continuity is what we need in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Are our policies there working right now? JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: The president has a good team. This is also an excellent team. Ryan Crocker, added as ambassador. This will be the sixth ambassador shift to major countries in that part of world.

We're having difficulty with Karzai right now. I think Ryan's move there is a plus and I agree with Dave on the other points. What is disjointed now is not our team, it's frankly, I think the president's policies.

We have given the impression that it's a bad thing to be a friend of the United States and it's a pretty good thing to be an enemy. The Syrians and Iranians come in for it at most very tardy wrist slap when they murder hundreds and hundreds of people.

And someone in the press today, a senior government, White House official said President Assad was to leave from behind. I don't think that's a good style. The problem is not his team. The old team is good. The new team will be good.

These are excellent able, patriotic men, and including the secretary of state, women who the president's very lucky to have helping him and he's wise to have appointed people with this kind of ability, but the problem is not them, it's him.

SPITZER: David, two points that are critical points that Jim is making. One on the policy, it is now easier to be devout enemy of the United States if you're Syria or Iran than supposedly a friend, certainly the case in Mubarak.

Is Jim right about that? Second, is there, in fact, a problem with the president's leadership and decision making style when it comes to foreign policy?

GERGEN: Well, Jim's view is widely echoed in much of the Middle East, especially among the Gulf States, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Bahrain, there's a lot of feeling that this administration has not been tough enough on its enemies.

And threw Mubarak under a bus way too early has caused huge strains in our relationship with the Saudis as Jim knows. That is not the view in the White House. There's a view in the White House they have been much tougher on the Iranians than they're given credit for.

The Iranian nuclear program for example has been badly delayed. Everybody I think understands that Israel and the United States together have had something to do with that through sabotage, and there have been other ways we've been tightening the screws.

I personally believe we do not yet have a clear strategy in the Middle East. It's not clear what we're trying to accomplish there. And among all these moves, I'm not sure who the strategists will be.

I'd be interested in Jim's view on that. Where will the strategy be made now with this new team? I thought Bob Gates had a lot to do with the extent there was strategy, he provided it. SPITZER: Jim, before you jump in, I want you to answer that question, but also specifically with respect to Libya, what is the strategy there? Who's going to craft it? Is there a road to success?

WOOLSEY: Well, Libya's a perfect example of where there's not a strategy. We -- the president, first of all, says it's unacceptable for Gadhafi to stay in place. Once the American president says something is unacceptable, he needs to make it unaccepted or the country loses.

So we get started after getting resolutions of the Arab league and from the United Nations. We finally get started under France's leadership I think I would have to say in terms of the urgency. And save Benghazi from Gadhafi conquering it.

But then we, after using these two superb close support aircraft we have, the AC-130 and the A-10, then we pull them out and stop using them. They're the best aircraft in the world for close support to take out tanks and artillery and things like that that are near buildings, near cities. I have no idea why the president did that.

SPITZER: Jim, time runs short. Real quickly, is there any evidence that maybe the noose is tightening, they're running out of gas, they're running out of necessities in life, in five seconds, do you think there's any hope this news will actually squeeze tighten up to get Gadhafi out in a matter of months?

WOOLSEY: I think there's a reasonable chance, but we could have done it better if we moved faster and stayed with it.

SPITZER: All right, David Gergen and James Woolsey, thank you so much for your wisdom. We'll be coming back to you in days and weeks ahead. Thanks for joining us.

Coming up, we'll have the very latest on the deadly storms that are ripping through Alabama. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: Back now with our breaking news, 31 people now confirmed dead, 25 of them in Alabama alone as a string of violent storms rampages tonight across the south.

Meteorologist Chad Myers is in the Severe Weather Center in Atlanta. He joins us again with the very latest. Chad, what's up?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Now the storm is moving toward Knoxville and Rachi right now. The first storm is moving over the Alabama/Georgia line, into Georgia north of Atlanta, near the town of Rome.

But there are many cells. We call them supercells because they're out by themselves and they're all rotating to get out of this way here. You can see every little pink box has a -- some type of cell rotating, including damage around Andrews Air Force base on one of the golf courses out there. But we talk about the tornadoes, Eliot, we've had now 113 separate reports of tornado damage just today alone. It has been one brutal day for people across the south.

SPITZER: Chad, explain this to me. What happens to a tornado as it moves across the ground? Does it weaken? Does it strengthen? Does it dissipate naturally? How does it maintain that unbelievable power?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MYERS (voice-over): If a tornado and a storm is all by itself, and it's just sitting there. And it's eating all of the food, which is humidity and the energy, it becomes the big dog. It's like putting a bowl of food out and having only one dog eat it.

It's going to be a very big dog. You put that same bowl of food out and have 20 dogs eat that same bowl of food, they don't get very big. So we have the one supercell. It has all of the energy. It gets all of the food necessary to become a tornado that rotates on the ground.

And if there's nothing else to bump into it, it continues to stay on the ground for many miles. In fact, the Tuscaloosa storm may have been on the ground for almost 100 miles. They'll go out there and see. It's all the way from Tuscaloosa all the way to Huey Town and let me tell you, some of the video is really unbelievable.

SPITZER: So that means you have 100-mile swath of destruction from that one storm. Given what we know, the technology we've got, the radar, the satellites up there. Can we predict where they're going to go so you can get a warning out to people would are in the path of destruction and say, this thing is coming, get out of the way?

MYERS: When the cells are as big as they were today and they are today, because they're still on the ground right now, the warnings can be 30 minutes in advance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MYERS: There's no reason to say, I didn't know about it because with all the NOAA weather radios and everybody talking to everybody else, I don't think this took anybody by surprise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER (voice-over): It seems to me then unless I'm missing something, you get 45 minutes notice if they're about a mile wide. You certainly have plenty of time to get out of the path.

The destruction, obviously, the houses and the physical destruction will continue. But people can get to safety with that sort of time. Notice, if, in fact, we're watching these things carefully.

MYERS: Look at the video. You're showing Eliot, how do you get to safety there? There is no safety. Those houses were literally obliterated. They were knocked to the ground and if people were in the wrong room or if they -- even if their safe room didn't hold up.

This was a storm that possibly had winds to 200 miles per hour. This looks like the worst possible damage I ever saw in Oklahoma. Yet it's in Alabama. There's no way -- sometimes there's just -- some of these storms are not survivable. No matter what you do right, even if you know it's coming and you get in the right place, you still may not survive.

Do the best you can. I don't want to scare people. This is all -- this was one big tornado that did that big damage, but an F-5 tornado can sometimes be unavoidable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: All right, Chad, shocking video. Let's just hope things dissipate down there. Thanks so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: U.S. relations with Afghanistan and Pakistan are at a low point, but they may have gotten even worse today. According to a story first reported in "The Wall Street Journal," during a meeting in Kabul earlier this month, the Pakistani prime minister tried to convince Afghan President Hamid Karzai to toss the United States out and switch his allegiance to Pakistan and China.

Joining me to discuss U.S.-Afghan relations is Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's weekend show "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS." Welcome, Fareed.

We've got to start -- the reports in the papers today of this April 16 meeting between the leaders of Pakistan and Afghanistan where basically these two supposed U.S. allies get together to conspire to throw the U.S. out and arguably turn to China as the benefactor. What's going on here?

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Well, I think, you know, sometimes the United States enters places like south Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and we think this is all very simple. There are good guys and bad guys coming in support of the good guys and you should all be on our side against the bad guys.

But actually there's an existing set of regional dynamics at work here. We're the interloper. We're coming into this game pretty late. They think we're going to leave. So what you're watching is the return of geopolitics in south Asia.

What does that mean? It means that they think the United States is going to leave. So the Pakistanis are trying to become the dominant player. The real game here is the Pakistanis are trying to tell the Afghans -- because the Afghans are not really cooperating yet.

The Pakistanis are trying to tell the Afghans don't rely on Uncle Sam. They're weak, they're declining -- SPITZER: They're right about that. Every day, they hear the U.S. government say we're leaving Afghanistan. In fact, crazy as it seems, July of '11, just a couple months from now, is when the United States has said with much fanfare we will begin withdrawing.

So Pakistan when it goes to Afghan, goes to Karzai and says, you can't trust these guys, they're short termers. He's preying upon a very real articulation of what's going to happen there.

ZAKARIA: That's their game. That's what they're trying to convince them. I think what we should try to stress to them is, look, our commitment to Afghanistan cannot be measured by will we maintain 100,000 troops there in perpetuity. Of course, we won't.

But we will have troops, we will have aid, we will politically support you and you, Afghanistan, we should be telling them, you, Afghanistan, don't want to be a client state of Pakistan.

You want your options. You want to be a proud independent country. So don't become a client state of Pakistan, but you see, we're in the midst of a regional power dynamic.

SPITZER: Let's think there are four players there at least. You got Pakistan, al Qaeda, the Taliban and then the Afghan government of Karzai, right? We think that our allies here are Karzai and the Pakistani government, but they're now in a very simple level getting together to say we can't rely on the United States.

Let's get rid of them, Pakistan having picked out the CIA, publicly, although I'm sure it hasn't happened. They have said no more drones even though that has been our best attack against al Qaeda. Karzai flirting with the Taliban.

So who are our friends there? And what is our interest? And how are we going to effectuate it before we do get kicked out?

ZAKARIA: It's a great question. If you want to make it more complicated so you add in two other outside players, China, which the Pakistanis are trying to tell the Afghans. If you need money, if you need investment, why do you need America?

We can get you China. Of course, there's India where one of our Trump cards could be, fine, if you guys don't want to deal with this terrorism problem, we will let India be more involved, and that will drive the Pakistanis nuts.

SPITZER: And just to add one layer to this, the Pakistanis perhaps properly observed to the Afghan government, over the next 50 years, who is going to have the wealth and the capacity to exert strength in this region?

It's not going to be the U.S., it's going to be China. So I think they're praying on these global tectonic shifts that most people think is occurring certainly in that region.

ZAKARIA: So bottom line as you say, why does this matter? What should we do? We have one interest in this region, which is al Qaeda. Our goal is to make sure that al Qaeda does not create training camps. That then go out and kill Americans, kill westerners. You know, attack us.

We should maintain some level of presence, 20,000 or 30,000 troops, and some relationship with the Afghan government that allows us to do that. That is something that the Indians would strongly support. That is something the Pakistanis say that they support publicly.

The Chinese say they publicly support. Other than that, in my opinion, Eliot, we should let them have it. If Pakistan thinks the prize is Afghanistan, they're welcome to it.

SPITZER: But this is pretty dramatic. This is Fareed Zakaria saying we should go from 100-plus thousand troops down to 20 pretty quickly.

Everybody on TV who has seen me knows I think you're the smartest guy on TV, the only one who understands this region. You're basically saying our strategy there right now is wrong because we're not moving anything close to that quick a draw-down?

ZAKARIA: Well, also, you know, the other way to think about it is do we need to have this level of involvement and you destroyed the regional power dynamics very well?

It's a mess there and they're all battling for influence. We don't have a dog in that fight. Our interest is this one thing. We have to ask ourselves, how do we secure it?

I may be slightly off by the numbers. If the military tells me, to do counterterrorism well, you need 32,000 troops, fine, but you don't need 100,000.

SPITZER: The surge is not working in terms of winning hearts and minds and we've got to focus on the counterterrorism and forget trying to get into nation building.

ZAKARIA: Even if it works, it can only continue to work if you keep 100,000 troops there.

SPITZER: Right, which we don't have the will power or the finances to do it. Well, at least, switch gears for a minute because clearly, our strategy here has taken a beating. The level of the prison breaks.

Just the past couple of days in Afghanistan, which are an embarrassment to the global dynamic that we've just been discussing. Is this to a certain extent because Ambassador Holbrooke who passed away is no longer there to chaperone and guide our relations in an area where our relations have always been fraught, but he could manage it?

ZAKARIA: Well, I think he was a huge advantage and having kind of muscular diplomacy, very aggressive diplomacy. A lot of this is managing problems. You're never going to solve it or suddenly find the Pakistanis cooperate whole-heartedly or the Afghan government does.

You know, you're beating away at the problem day by day. Apparently Ryan Crocker is being sent out there and that may make a big difference. Yes, the quality of diplomacy in these kind of critical situations, it often boils down to leadership. And the quality of diplomacy perhaps has been somewhat lacking.

SPITZER: You were right, we don't have a dog in that fight, but we have a bulldog over there representing us in Richard Holbrooke who was a giant among diplomats but dogged, to continue the bad metaphor, and just didn't quit. I think there was such an element of respect for him. He did get things done in perhaps a way that is absent right now.

ZAKARIA: Also, part of what's going on here is the part you mentioned, Eliot, which is they're beginning to be fears about the draw-down, about what happens when the united states leaves.

And I hope that we can manage this as we did in Iraq where Obama rightly said the answer is not that we'll stay forever. The answer is we, in a responsible man, start withdrawing and show people it doesn't matter we're abandoning them.

It doesn't mean we let the play turn into a chaotic hellhole, but we will draw down on military exposure because we are just - there are over commitments in all these places.

SPITZER: We're overextended. Fareed, this is fascinating stuff. Obviously this will play out over week, months that we will cover. But as we've been focused on North Africa and the Middle East, we have become enmeshed or have been enmeshed in quicksand in Pakistan and Afghanistan. All right, thank you so much, as always.

ZAKARIA: A pleasure.

SPITZER: Thank you for joining me IN THE ARENA tonight. Good night from New York. "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" starts right now.