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Joy Behar Page

Tiger Woods, Behind the Scenes; Extreme Makeover for Obama; Silent Left?

Aired January 25, 2010 - 21:00   ET


JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on The Joy Behar Show -- sources say Elin Woods pretended to be her husband Tiger in a text message to one of his mistresses. Who even knew she spoke (INAUDIBLE)?

Then, South Carolina`s lieutenant governor insults poor people and now he refuses to apologize. Will his boss governor Mark Sanford send him for a timeout on the Appalachian Trail?

And rumors are swirling that Brad and Angelina are over. But where will Brad find someone with those amazing cheekbones and big lips? Will he try to hook up with the octo-mom?

All this and more starting right now.

What really happened at Tiger Woods house in Florida last Thanksgiving has been playing out like an episode of CSI: Miami. Tonight our crack investigators -- ok, producers -- have uncovered some clues that could shed some light on the truth and they did it without the help of David Caruso or his sunglasses.

But they did speak with Gerald Posner, chief investigative reporter of The Daily Beast who joins me now. Hi Gerald.

GERALD POSNER, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, DAILYBEAST.COM: Hi, Joy. I did talk to David Caruso. he was a big help on this actually.

BEHAR: I`ll bet he was. You say you`ve solved the Tiger Thanksgiving mystery. Tell us what happened.

POSNER: Yes. Well, at least what I`ve done is I filled in a lot of the details. I talked to two of Elin`s friends and here`s what they end up saying that happened.

The day before Thanksgiving, Tiger knew that "The National Enquirer" story was going to run. He actually convinced his girlfriend, Rachel Uchitel, to call Elin and to tell her, "We have met only a couple of times. We`re just platonic friends."

And Elin bought that. It bought Tiger 24 hours. But the next day information from "The National Enquirer" was coming out that they had an affair in Australia. That they had met.

Elin confronted him and they had an argument and what does Tiger do? Does he admit the truth? Come forward and say, yes, it`s really me, no. He takes an Ambien and goes to sleep. And leaves his cellphone -- he so underestimates his wife, Elin that he doesn`t think she`s going to do anything.

She turns into detective and she opens up the cell phone. She looks through his text messages and she finds one that really hits her in which he writes to Uchitel and says, "You`re the one I really love." And then she decides to texts Uchitel and pretends she`s Tiger. She says, "I miss you. When am I going see you again?" Uchitel sent back text that says essentially, "I`m surprised you`re awake," which tells Elin that the two had communicated that night because Uchitel knew that Tiger had gone to sleep.

And then Elin does a great thing. She calls Uchitel up directly. She confronts Rachel; she says, "I knew you were the one." Rachel has an expletive and hangs up the phone. From that point on, Joy, sort of all hell breaks loose.

BEHAR: Ok. You know Gerald, I have to say. Is any of this stuff verified? I mean, how do we know all of this? How do you know it?

POSNER: Ok. I`ll tell you how I know. People who don`t do reporting for a living think that all you do as a reporter is you pick up a telephone, somebody gives you a number, you call them up and say, by the way, I would like to know the details of what happened the night that Tiger and Elin had a big blowout and they just tell you. That`s not it at all.

What you do is what I`ve been doing which is for the past two months you keep calling the same people, the same sources that you know. You hope that eventually one of the dozen that you`re calling in either Tiger camp or in the Uchitel camp or in the Elin camp will finally open up the door a little bit and talk to you.

And in this case because things are coming to a head on the issue of whether she`s going to get a divorce, I think she`s ready to have a few of her friends -- she`s not saying this, nor are the friends but they want to present the fact that they think she`s not only the victim here; that she was aggrieved but that she was smart enough to take things into her own hand and find out what happened. So I was lucky to be there, get it from one person and then go to another person to get it confirmed.

BEHAR: But is Elin squeaky clean in all of this herself?

POSNER: I`ll tell you, squeaky clean in this sense -- she never had as far as I can find an extramarital affair. She wasn`t going out and partying. She stayed home with the kids.

BEHAR: You don`t know that for sure.

POSNER: I`ll tell you how I know. Wait, hold on a second. She was never photographed by any of the tabloids. She was never photographed by TMZ or never had her on their sights. She was never at a party. We never saw her with a drunken glass in her hand. She was Tiger Woods` wife.

And something else interesting; when she used to go to the tournaments where was she? She was boring, considerably. You talk to the paparazzi which I have -- out in L.A. and New York. They didn`t follow her because they considered her a boring target. Boring actually means you had a pretty good life meaning in that clean way.

BEHAR: I see.

You`re saying also that Tiger took Ambien that night. Does that explain his erratic behavior or did he crash that car because she hit it with a golf club?

POSNER: It could be both but the Ambien certainly didn`t help. One of the things interesting is both of these acquaintances of Elin tell me Joy that he had trouble sleeping and Elin said so. He took Ambien regularly. He took enough that night to knock him out.

When she got off the phone with Rachel, she woke him up yelling. And what does he do? He makes a major mistake in judgment; he locks himself in the bathroom for a few minutes. When he comes out she is able to get the cell phone out of his hand and what`s the text message? You know, text messages don`t disappear. They are around. They are there to verify the people who have them is on Tiger`s phone and on Rachel Uchitel`s phone.

He sends Rachel a message that says in essence, and I`m paraphrasing here because these people didn`t see it -- which is she knows, which means Elin knows, I`m packing, divorce could be coming. And at that point she starts pummeling him on his chest and arms with her fist and then grabs a golf club. That`s when he`s out of the house, barefoot into the car.

BEHAR: Ok. Can she be charged with anything in this case?

POSNER: Well, the only honorable thing that Tiger Woods did that night or maybe over those couple of days is when the police arrived he said to them, "By the way, she was trying to get me out of the car. That`s why the rear windows were broken."

The two people I spoke to said they don`t know when the windows were broken. They didn`t know if Tiger had a chipped tooth. They didn`t know if he had been hit in his face. So he clearly played that down but he also was helping himself that night.


POSNER: Because he didn`t want to tell the cops that they had a major marital discord.

BEHAR: Right. So he`s kind of covering up for her and I guess that`s right. Stay there, Gerald.

I want to bring in Dan Savage, a syndicated sex columnist and editor of "The Stranger" and Sunny Hostin, "In Session" legal contributor and former federal prosecutor. What is it Sunny, tell me.


BEHAR: Hostin.

So, Tiger reportedly is in a sex rehab clinic in Mississippi. He was. But today I heard that she is now -- she was with him, by the way. Elin was with him, they reported this anyway. But then I heard recently, maybe a few hours ago that she was in Florida again. Do you know where she is?

DAN SAVAGE, SYNDICATED SEX COLUMNIST: No. But clearly we need to have them both tagged with GPS for 24-hour surveillance.

BEHAR: I think we should.

What does that tell you? She went there? You know about these types of things, Dan, right.


BEHAR: So, I remember someone told me on this show, I think it was Drew Pinsky or somebody that you have to have the spouse in sex rehab if you want to get better. Is that true?

SAVAGE: It`s true if you believe in the sex addiction model. I disagree with Dr. Drew about whether you can be addicted to sex. There are people who have the means, opportunity and are horny enough to make bad choices. And sometimes they can be compulsively bad choices.

Tiger Woods is guilty of sleeping with a lot of women that most American men given the opportunity would sleep with, too. So and you know you want to look at that and say that`s addiction...


BEHAR: You know what? I totally disagree with you.

SAVAGE: You really want to equate, the sex ...

BEHAR: I know tons of men of wouldn`t look at those women twice.

HOSTIN: I agree and it really doesn`t matter whether or not he went to sex rehab or rather whether or not she went with him. The bottom line is I think his lawyers went to him. His PR people went to him and said, "Give me something to work with, please, Tiger." And he decided sex rehab was the way to go.

And now in court they have a pretty good argument. I love the argument. I can then say he`s sick. He`s a sick person.

SAVAGE: I disagree. I don`t agree that sex addiction is a model. I think if he went for any reason, it was to do sort of a public atonement, it`s a self-flagellation. And a desire to say, "I didn`t do anything wrong. I just -- I`m powerless in the face of this sex thing."

HOSTIN: And he was.

SAVAGE: That everybody else is impervious to.

BEHAR: But do you believe that men can be monogamous or do they have to spread their seed like some John Deere tractor?

SAVAGE: I believe men can be monogamous. But I believe that it`s a difficult struggle. You know, when you`re in love with someone and you make a monogamous commitment, it`s not that you don`t want to sleep with other people; it`s that you refrain from sleeping with other people.

The culture says if there is love there is no desire for others and that makes people -- essentially puts them at war with their own instincts and leads to lies and deceit because you`re lying and deceiving yourself when you make that kind of commitment.

BEHAR: Gerald, let me ask you something. They say that there are different levels of cheating. Do you agree with that?

POSNER: You know, I don`t know. Cheating`s cheating to me, Joy. And I think what Dan just said is your right. Not that -- if you`re married, you`re monogamous -- it`s not that you don`t think about other women. It`s just that you refrain from being with other women and you make that choice. You have the discipline.

But in Tiger`s case, if there are degrees of cheating, let me tell you, he certainly -- he was just a single guy who got married and decided he was going to have a wife and the perfect family with two children and still keep his single life going. And he actually ended up having more affairs in a couple years than most single men that I know.

So this is complete narcissism. I mean it is early, learned narcissism for somebody who was trained from the age of 5 to be the world`s best golfer and came to belief that he was not only the best at what he did, but he believed only in himself and was untouchable.

BEHAR: I know. I think that that might be true. What do you think about that, Dan?

SAVAGE: I think Tiger Woods is behaving now like the college student he never got a chance to be. What you see is sort of like -- we`re going to say it`s a mid-life crisis because he`s over 30. But you look at the culture of hooking up...

BEHAR: Thirty is not the mid-life crisis, it`s more like 50.

HOSTIN: Fifty.

SAVAGE: Well, now. But you...


SAVAGE: But what he didn`t get to do was what so many young people today do. Which is they get out of high school, they go to college and in their 20s they really cut loose, have fun, experiment, they try a lot of different kinds of people on.

HOSTIN: He`s different from a 20-year-old...


SAVAGE: He`s been famous since he was 2.

HOSTIN: He had so much to lose, so much to lose and that`s what doesn`t make sense. I think that`s what plays into the sex addiction model.

BEHAR: What do you think is going to happen to the marriage Sunny?

SAVAGE: Bill Clinton had so much to lose.

HOSTIN: I can`t imagine Joy that he is going to -- that she`s going to stay. I just can`t imagine -- she`s been humiliated. He`s done it over and over again. My guess is that the pre-nup, if it exists, that`s what`s going to rule here.

BEHAR: Gerald, do you think she`s going to stay?

POSNER: I would be very surprised if she does. Not only is she humiliated by the numbers but now we know from some of these text messages and new information that he actually was emotionally attached to the last of the women, Rachel Uchitel. So it`s sort of the worst; he uses "love" that word together with the last woman he`s seen. I can`t imagine her staying.

SAVAGE: It`s a Jenny Sanford situation.

BEHAR: You know the Gentle Path Rehab Clinic -- I love the title -- trotted out a Tiger look-alike. Did you see that to counter the "National Enquirer" photo? Have you seen that?

Take a look at that Sunny. Is that Tiger? We don`t think so.

SUNNY: I don`t think its Tiger. It doesn`t look like Tiger.

BEHAR: Gerald is that Tiger?

POSNER: No, I don`t think so. As a matter of fact you know, I don`t report that he`s in Mississippi. I can`t confirm it one way of the other. And you know one of the women...

BEHAR: Oh...

POSNER: ...those friends of Elin said by the way he`s one of the wealthiest athlete around. He could have the best sex therapist, the best psychoanalyst and the best marriage counselors come to his house for private counseling if he wanted to. He doesn`t need to be in a public institution where there are cell phones, cameras and workers...

BEHAR: So where do you think he is, where is he?

POSNER: And that`s why when you said before that there was a report that Elin was in Florida...


POSNER: I would not be surprised if they were going through this process with the best treatment in Florida.

BEHAR: Ok, Gerald, Sunny, thanks.

Dan, sit right there. We`ll have more to talk about when we come back.


BEHAR: Mark Sanford may have confused hiking with cheating but his Lieutenant Governor Andre Bauer has gone one better. He`s confused compassion with cruelty comparing poor people to stray animals. Listen to this.


ANDRE BAUER, LT. GOVERNOR, SOUTH CAROLINA: In government, we continue to reward bad behavior. Any time we give somebody money, we`re rewarding them, we`re telling them to keep doing what they`re doing.

My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re never going to listen...

BAUER: Because they breed. You`re facilitating the problem. If you give an animal or a person ample food supply, they will reproduce.


BEHAR: Should these two just retire from politics and open a store in Myrtle Beach together? You know, bed, bath and beyond stupid?

Back with me is Dan Savage, editor of "The Stranger" and joining the conversation is Joe Klein, "Time" magazine columnist and author of its cover story "Now What" is the title of the cover story.

Dan what -- both of you. What is this response? I mean, are they -- is he elitist, classist, racist or just plain stupid -- Joe?

JOE KLEIN, TIME MAGAZINE: Wildly stupid. You know, you wonder whether his grandmother ever read him the Bible, the New Testament, for example.

BEHAR: And he`s a big Christian, you know.

KLEIN: And I mean and you know -- he`s a big Christian...


KLEIN: ...except for the fact that he is the exact opposite of what Jesus said -- Jesus said, "blessed are the poor." That`s number one.

Number two, just on the facts and the merits of it, we passed welfare reform in this country in 1996. You can only stay on welfare for a very limited time. And then you have to find work.

So this is not only demagoguery; it`s stupid demagoguery.

BEHAR: I feel like there`s a war against the poor going on. It`s always been for a while but...

DAN SAVAGE, EDITOR, "THE STRANGER": The first half of the quote, you almost think he`s talking about the bankers.


SAVAGE: We`ve got to stop rewarding bad behavior and giving money to these poor.


KLEIN: Oh no, he protects the bankers, I`m sure.

SAVAGE: ...then he`s bashing the poor.

BEHAR: Yes, kick the poor.

So whatever happened to the -- that whole idea of compassionate conservatives? Remember that, do you remember that?

KLEIN: Yes, well, George Bush was a compassionate conservative when he was running for office and also to a certain extent when he was governor. But as soon as he got into the White House, those programs -- faith-based social programs became a way to reward his religious allies. They became, you know, just a political graft operation.

BEHAR: I see.

SAVAGE: Andre Bauer has a bigger problem in South Carolina than this comment. Mike Rodgers, the gay blogger and activist who outed Larry Craig, and Mark Foley and Charlie Crist...


SAVAGE: ...outed Bauer, Bauer is a single, middle-aged (INAUDIBLE) man and Mike Rodgers has been writing. And it`s gotten mainstream...

BEHAR: Oh so this is going to come out that he`s gay? Is that what you guys are saying?

SAVAGE: Mike Rodgers was right about Larry Craig and right about Mark Foley has outed Andre Bauer and says he is gay. I`ve never slept with the man, I couldn`t tell you.


SAVAGE: And I wouldn`t sleep with somebody...

BEHAR: Well, I have. I`ll tell you right now and he`s gay.

Another politician under heat (ph) recently is the President of the United States. After one year in office public opinion of Obama is down.

Joe, you just spoke to Obama.


BEHAR: And what do you think he should do to turn this around? Because there is a tide going against him right now.

KLEIN: Well, you know, this happens to Democratic presidents. They try to do stuff and getting anything done, anything big like health care reform done in Washington...


KLEIN: really hard. That`s how you spend your political capital. And so, you know, Bill Clinton was down in the dumps after his first year. The other person who was down in the dumps after his first year was Ronald Reagan, who was facing what Obama`s face...

BEHAR: Right.

KLEIN: ...which is a really tough economy.

The way he gets himself back is by focusing a little bit more on politics. I think he understands this now that you can`t just be a policy wonk in the Oval Office. You have to communicate and connect with the folks.

BEHAR: Do you think he`s too intellectual for the public`s liking? Is that what the problem is? A kind of Adlai Stevenson routine?

KLEIN: Gee, that would be a tragedy if we can`t have a President who actually thinks through policy.

BEHAR: I think he does -- he does think through policy.

KLEIN: He does, he is really...

BEHAR: He just doesn`t seem to be able to get it across to everybody.

KLEIN: Well, because it`s really, really, really complicated. And health care turned out to be far more -- far more complicated than he thought. It was like hijacked by the Congress. You know, they spent three months...

BEHAR: So is he going to get off that now? Wait just answer this one, is going to get off of health care for a while and just say jobs, jobs, jobs now?

KLEIN: I don`t know. I don`t know and if he says jobs, jobs, jobs he should have some details because politicians always promise jobs. And sometimes they produce them and sometimes they don`t.

The way you could get more good jobs in this country is to promise education, education, education. He`s doing a very good job of that but the teachers unions, one of the Democratic interest groups...


KLEIN: ...have been fighting it.

BEHAR: Oh, really?


BEHAR: Well, that`s another issue.

SAVAGE: Health care is jobs though. One of the reasons...

KLEIN: It is.

SAVAGE: care is a crisis is people are losing their jobs, and they don`t have health care, don`t have access to health care and there`s a health care -- there`s a jobs argument to be made for health care. You say this happens to Democratic presidents and it`s true because the Democratic Party, particularly a lot of Democratic Congress people are such messes, the Blue Dog Democrats.

BEHAR: Yes, they`re trouble, they are trouble.

SAVAGE: They are destroying Obama.

BEHAR: But let me ask you...


KLEIN: It`s not just the Blue Dogs that are doing this. I think that, if you`re a Republican and you come and you want to lower taxes and you want to march into Baghdad in three weeks. Those are easy things to explain.

BEHAR: Right, easy to understand.

KLEIN: If you`re a Democrat and you want to do things like health care reform and climate change legislation and you want to do diplomacy, God forbid as opposed to going to war, that`s far more complicated to explain and it takes time to evolve.

I think that, you`ve got to -- you know, we`re just one year in and we`ve got to let it evolve.

BEHAR: I agree with you but people are very impatient.

But you know, 67 percent in this poll that I read blame the economy, the bad economy on Bush. And yet a lot of people are saying we can`t keep blaming Bush, we can`t keep blaming Bush.

When do we -- when is it time to stop blaming Bush? Personally, I think we can keep blaming him for a long time.

KLEIN: I think historians will be blaming him for -- you know, in perpetuity.


KLEIN: But you know, I saw another poll today, nearly three-quarters of the American people think that the stimulus package was waste. What`s gone out in the stimulus package so far is tax breaks for them. Everybody`s getting 60 -- 95 percent of the American people are getting $60 to $80 more a month because of the stimulus package. They just don`t know it. And that`s a failing of the president because...

BEHAR: He has to tell us that.

KLEIN: He has to tell them.

BEHAR: is he going to do it in the "State of the Union" message? I hope so.

KLEIN: Yes. I think he`ll probably take a step. But I think that he has to say who he is.

BEHAR: I know. Ok, stick around. We`re going to talk some more. We`ll be back in a minute.


BEHAR: When you think of talk radio, you think of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and their angry minions, not the progressive radio network, Air America which may explain why it officially went off the air today.

Why doesn`t left-wing talk radio work? Here to discuss this further is my panel.

Ok let`s -- why is liberal radio not successful? Liberal television is successful. We are always getting accused of being the liberal media, but the radio, it doesn`t work, why?

SAVAGE: Falsely accused of being the liberal media.

BEHAR: Oh, yes. Well, whatever.

SAVAGE: I think what the liberals dominate in is the blogosphere -- blogs like Daily Kos, blogs like America Blogs, blogs like Talking Points Memo because it`s more -- and I`m going to say this and you`re going to explode because we have -- you have taken a lot of punches in liberal blogosphere -- but there is more participatory discourse.

It`s not just Rush Limbaugh telling you what to think and Glenn Beck telling you what to do. Come to the TEA bag rally. Sites like Kos, you can argue and you can debate. You can become a blogger yourself and it`s very empowering.

Where as -- there is the big man talk radio thing. I think that appeals to a conservative sensibility where as the participatory blogosphere appeals to liberals.

BEHAR: Ok. But can I say that men listen to talk radio more than women and men are more conservative, generally speaking.

KLEIN: That`s part of it. But I think liberals like to read more than they like to listen to people screaming at them. You know, the liberal stuff that works are funny programs like "The Daily Show" or Colbert.

BEHAR: This show -- this show works also.

KLEIN: Or this show.

BEHAR: Thank you.

KLEIN: When liberals listen to radio they tend to listen to NPR because they don`t want to be screamed at. They want to get the facts so that they can then...

SAVAGE: Get the jokes when they watch Colbert.

KLEIN: And then they can go on my swamplab blog at "Time" and rant at me in print.

BEHAR: I see. But I mean -- you know the conservative radio people are angry, no matter whether they`re in power or now they`re not necessarily in power. They have been screaming for years, even when Bush and Cheney and Rove were running the place.

SAVAGE: The (INAUDIBLE) that gets to the polls is rage and fear. Oh here come the queers and they`re so scary. Here comes Obama, he wants to make sure your kids have health care, isn`t that scary. And that doesn`t appeal to liberals. And radio is just a (INAUDIBLE) people ought to be yelled at. People want to yell.

BEHAR: We did get from Air America Rachel Maddow and Al Franken. I must say that we got something out of Air America.

KLEIN: But, you know, I think that there is a legitimate populist fear that these folks absolutely exploit. The middle class in this country has been going downhill gradually economically for the last 20, 25 years because of Republican conservative policies.

BEHAR: They don`t vote in their interests, people. It`s outrageous.

KLEIN: They can be exploited by -- when these folks point to the other -- point to -- you know, who`s that guy in the White House? Is he actually an American? They say, wow, there are people like that that are coming to my town. Now they`re running the convenience stores, they`re all over the place. We have to protect ourselves.

That kind of paranoia is as old ...

BEHAR: And xenophobia...

KLEIN: It`s as old as the Declaration of Independence. But here`s the good news, it has always been a minority movement in this country. Always.

BEHAR: And will it continue to be?

KLEIN: Absolutely.

SAVAGE: They are losing it. One of the reason the rage is so extreme right now because they look at the...

BEHAR: They`re hanging on. Yes.

SAVAGE: They look at where the demographics of the country are going -- and the Hispanic community is growing. White people are going to be a minority in this country soon. And I think this is the last gasp of that kind of rage.

BEHAR: So now the liberals try the radio or just forget it?

SAVAGE: No. Blog.

BEHAR: Go to the blogs.

All right. Thank you very much, guys.

Up next, Brangelina may be calling it quits. How will the world ever cope? I`m a wreck.


BEHAR: Are Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie headed for splitsville? According to one source, yes. According to another, no. What should America believe? And do we care? Here`s how we, as a nation, go on like this. Comedian Rich Vos, Sarah Bernard, contributing editor for New York magazine and Noah Levy Senior Editor of In-Touch Weekly. Welcome. Rich, the story is everywhere. Why is everyone so invested in this relationship? Is it because they`re so beautiful?

RICH VOS, COMEDIAN: I think it`s all the kids. What`s going to happen with the kids. Everyone`s worried that they have, like, 150 kids, you know.


VOS: And you know they don`t take care of them. They have like all these nannies --

BEHAR: 150 nannies.

VOS: Yes, you know, what it is the kids are in a better orphanage now basically.


BEHAR: They are in a very good orphanage with those two.

VOS: I would love to see Angelina and Madonna like playing cards like I`ll see you and I`ll raise you two Ethiopians.


SARAH BERNARD, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: All right. I have a theory about this. Do you want to hear this?

VOS: Yes.

BERNARD: I think that basically there was a report that Angelina, not Brad, is the one who`s cheating and she was cheating according to a maid at the Waldorf with somebody that she met doing the last movie assault that there were sex toys and rubber sheets at the hotel room. And I think this is just reminding us that she has a wild side. There are so many brunette actresses like Megan Fox nipping at her heels.


BERNARD: The only thing separated her was her you know, nice welding tattoo wearing crazy side.

BEHAR: And being with Brad Pitt though, I have to say.

BERNARD: Well yes.

BEHAR: Jennifer Aniston has been dining on that break-up since then hasn`t she?

VOS: Well she`s been cheating on Brad Pitt. I definitely don`t have a shot with her then.

BEHAR: No you don`t. Exactly. Forget about you. Noah, does In Touch agree with this assessment?

NOAH LEVY, IN TOUCH: Well yes of course. This was our story. And there`s been so many stories about infidelity, lots of fights. I mean they have a juicy relationship. And the thing is --

BEHAR: Who does? Who does?

LEVY: Brad and Angelina.

BEHAR: Yes, juicy.

LEVY: Yes, definitely juicy and they are so attractive. Of course they will fight, and then make up and fight.

BEHAR: Why you think ugly people don`t fight and make up?

LEVY: No, but it`s more appealing when they`re really hot.

BEHAR: Lots of people want to watch that.

BERNARD: In terms of why we care though, I think it`s the opposite. They like to say they don`t have that nannies. I think working women, working moms like myself, we are like, oh you make it look so easy, with no nannies and six kids. So that`s why people are a little bit, you know, taking a little pleasure in the idea that it`s not so easy and perfect.

BEHAR: Right.

VOS: Either one will have a problem after it.

BEHAR: Finding someone else.

VOS: Anything in life - they`re not going to.

BEHAR: You don`t know that.

VOS: Well I, when it comes to finance --

BEHAR: It`s an inside job, rich.

VOS: Okay, Gandhi.

BEHAR: Actually quoting Lewis Ferando.

VOS: You know, he`s probably going to be sitting with like three kids in a house going, how did I end up with this?

BEHAR: Yes, okay. Let`s change the subject. Returning to late night, Conan`s last tonight show was on Friday. And this is what he had to say.


CONAN O`BRIEN, FORMER HOST, TONIGHT SHOW: To all the people watching, I can never ever thank you enough for the kindness to me. I will think about it for the rest of my life and all I ask is one thing. And this is -- I`m asking this particularly of young people that watch, please do not be cynical. I hate cynicism. For the record it`s my least favorite quality. It doesn`t lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you`re kind, amazing things will happen.


BEHAR: Yeah, like a $35 million payout.

BERNARD: Pretty amazing.

BEHAR: Do you think he`s sincere or are these words are written into the settlement?

BERNARD: I think is surprising, I think he mixed up the farewell speech with the speech that he gives to like college commencements because he was just telling everybody how to live their life. I think basically, he`s going to be fine. Obviously he`s going to pick up something else in the fall and Jay Leno is the one who is really, really not going to be fine.


BERNARD: It`s coming out very badly.

BEHAR: Do you think the sniping will continue when Leno and Letterman when they go head to head like that Noah? Yes.

LEVY: I think it`s only actually going to get worst. You know, Conan he is the lucky guy. He gets to leave his job, a gorgeous summer vacation. He get paid with a new gig. Jay Leno is going to, you know be fighting until the end with David Letterman. You know, if this time it`s personal.

BEHAR: But their ratings have gone up since they`ve been sniping at each other, so maybe it will continue.

VOS: He was there 20 years, 20 years, and he got like, what, $45 million? What`s there to complain about? I think after that speech he still stole pencils and staples from the office.

BEHAR: Who, Conan?

VOS: Yeah.

BEHAR: Who was there all those years?

VOS: He was there 20 years.


VOS: At NBC so after 20 years, I mean that`s a career. Who -- and he`s getting $45 million. So what is there to complain about. Do you know what I mean?

BEHAR: Uh huh, well what do you think they should have a rapprochement in public all the Leno and Letterman? I`m back to them again.

LEVY: Oh definitely.

BEHAR: And I got to use that word again.

LEVY: Oh yes it`s a beautiful word. I want to see them all together. I want this to be the fight that ends all fights. And it`s never going to die down. There are so many loyal sides.

BERNARD: Who? This is this going to be great for Letterman? No one is talking about his office affair anymore. they`re just talking about this and they think he`s championing -

BEHAR: See I don`t think all of this against Leno is right. I really don`t, the guy has worked his tail off all these years. He had a hit show for 12 years. Why would the public turn against him now?

VOS: It`s because he was number one. It`s like telling the super bowl coach, you`re fired. You just won the super bowl coach, you`re fired. He was number one and they took him out.

BEHAR: Exactly.

VOS: I`m like number 12 and I`m still trying to get work, you know what I mean?

BEHAR: You have -- you`re here with me now.


BEHAR: Isn`t that enough for you? All right let`s do another story.

In other TV news the cast of "Jersey Shore" and MTV are in a contract dispute. In fact I hear that Snooky`s are demands, if they aren`t met she may go to PBS. It was either that or "Meet The Press." she couldn`t decide. Okay, they are in a contract dispute now because they think they should get more money. Where do they come off to get more money, this group? They come out of nowhere.

LEVY: It`s totally unlikely. And no one ever thought. This is one of the biggest shows on TV. And I love it because they are really branding themselves after the cast of friends. They are all joined together, asking for a salary increase. And I think you know if this doesn`t work, Snooky can always go to QVC, she can sell bumpits (ph) for the hair. And I think she`ll have a new fan based there.

BERNARD: You were asking who to blame for this. It`s really the ladies from "The Hills."


BERNARD: Because we know that the other show on MTV that was sort of reality-based show. Lauren Conrad got $75,000 per episode. At one point she might have gotten more. So, I think that`s really what they`re looking and saying, you`re offering me ten?

BEHAR: Well you know, I can`t argue with ratings. If they have huge ratings then they deserve to make more money, I guess, right?


BEHAR: It`s a business.

BERNARD: $48 million.

VOS: Please, they come a diamond. You know what, YOU don`t want to do the show, okay next year we do Sheepshead Bay.

BEHAR: Move it to another part of Brooklyn.

VOS: There`s a million of them at the Jersey Shore.

BEHAR: Well Seaside Heights or something.

VOS: Yes or something, whatever. Oh really, what`s your talent? Punching somebody? I think we can find somebody else to do that.

BEHAR: No, I don`t think any of you are Italian-American, correct.

VOS: No.

BEHAR: Well, I am. But I wonder if this show set us back farther than the mafia and Joey Buttafuoco. This is all I wonder about. Do you think it has?

VOS: No, no -

BEHAR: Would you be insulted if - you`re Jewish, Rich.

VOS: Yes.

BEHAR: Would you be insulted if it was about Jews?

VOS: In a house like that, they would be arguing -- not over girls, but who`s going to buy dinner or whatever. Boy, that joke stunk. Some nights you have it, some nights you don`t. You can`t always win them all.


BEHAR: Yes, no, yes, go ahead, Noah. That`s right, you can`t win them all.

LEVY: They love watching stereotypes whether they are offensive, whether they remind you of your family, people like that. They like old traditional offensive stereotypes. And it gets a lot of people riled up. But also, this is what the ratings are there for. People love the show.

BEHAR: I know, yes go ahead.

BERNARD: And lots of other people they said - have already sent in their audition tapes to replace them. People are doing more outrageous things since they know that being really outrageous in reality TV can make your career.

BEHAR: Yes, see the guy who colors my hair -- I know you thought I was natural - but he said to me, oh come on, Joy, don`t be uptight about it. What`s the big deal? It`s funny. It`s a joke. But my answer is to that is will you keep hitting a stereo type about a group it makes it harder for young Italian-American to be taken seriously as lawyers, doctors, judges because they are viewed in this way. That`s my beef. If you compare it to like the "The Sopranos", or "The Godfather" those are pieces of art, it`s different. This is just a bunch of Snookies acting stupid. I grew up with a lot of kids who acted stupid like that and I got out of it. I just don`t think it`s right to show that all the time. It`s annoying.

VOS: Well I agree with you -

LEVY: People - the thing is reality --

BEHAR: And they will never come on my show now because they have seen that. But I want them to come on because maybe they can convince me that I`m wrong about this.

BERNARD: Well the controversy is it`s all ratings for MTV though. Since we are talking about their salaries, right.


BERNARD: MTV is in a little bit of trouble, this is probably the highest rated show they have. So I think it would be fair to pay them closer to "The Hills" salaries.


BEHAR: Go ahead, Noah.

LEVY: People say they could easily be replaced. The thing is you can replace them but these guys are smart enough now and they have people working for them, they`re going to go to another network, they`re going to get another reality show and get a lot more money.

BEHAR: Exactly. Well, if they can pull the audience they may deserve the money. All righty? Thanks, everybody. And if you want to see more of Rich Vos, go to to find out where he`s performing. Up next, Michael Jackson`s choreographer says what it was like to work with the king of pop. Sit right there.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s the man.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The man is here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: we`re all here because of him. May that continue with him leading the way.

MICHAEL JACKSON: This is the moment. This is it.

It`s an adventure. It`s a great adventure. You want to take them places that they have never been before, show them talent like they have never seen before.

BEHAR: That was the late, great Michael Jackson and the concert film "This Is It" which is out on DVD tomorrow. I`m joined by a man who spent a lot of time with Michael in the last months of his life. The associate director and choreographer of Michael Jackson`s "This Is It," Travis Payne. Welcome to the show Travis.


BEHAR: You worked closely with Michael. Tell me what the experience was like.

PAYNE: Oh, it was always amazing. I first started dancing for Michael in 1992 and became a choreography partners in 1995. And then that lasted for several years.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: And then here we are with "This Is It". And it was always just such a moving experience. I knew it from an early age I wanted to work with Mr. Jackson. And when that became my reality, you know, it felt like life started then for me.

BEHAR: Was he easy to work with?

PAYNE: Absolutely.

BEHAR: He was?

PAYNE: In the fact that, in a way that you know he`s perfectionist -- and a genius. So you, it`s kind of like math.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: You know you`ve come to the right answer. You know, he was never difficult to work with, but very demanding.

BEHAR: Uh-huh. Well he was good at what he did.

PAYNE: Yeah.

BEHAR: In the last few days what was his demeanor like? Did he look healthy?

PAYNE: Yes. To us, it was fine. And, you know, Michael had always believed that he had his not performance weight and his show weight. You know, so that was --

BEHAR: Which varied how many pounds?

PAYNE: I`m not sure.

BEHAR: 20?

PAYNE: I`m not sure. When he did the "History" tour he was heavier. When he did the second leg he was smaller. It fluctuated, like we all do.

BEHAR: So if there were obvious health issues you would have noticed it.

PAYNE: Absolutely. We were as stunned as the rest of the world. I mean, you know the night before Michael passed we had just completed the show. You know, there were a few other props and set pieces that we were waiting on, but the physical mechanics of the show were done.

BEHAR: Yeah. But after his death there was talk that he was -- you know, the tour and rehearsals were too much for him, that he was exhausted. How do you respond to that?

PAYNE: Well, I think that we were all exhausted. We all suffered from a little bit of sleep deprivation. I mean and it happens when you`re an artist and you`re excited about what you`re doing and you know the ideas are coming. And often times the middle of the night is when you do your best work because the phones aren`t ringing. So we had spaced the shows out so that it was going to take nine months to do those 50 shows.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: So it was fine. He`d do an average of 2.5 shows a week.

BEHAR: So he could do it.

PAYNE: Absolutely. We did much more per week for "History."

BEHAR: Uh huh, for the trip to the Philippines you worked with the prisoners on a new video.


BEHAR: Let`s look at that.




BEHAR: So you worked with prisoners and taught them to dance. We wondered before if Bernie Madoff well contacted you for some moon dancing, or moon walking.

PAYNE: That would be fun wouldn`t it?

BEHAR: Yes what do you call moon walking?

PAYNE: Yes, he`s got some walking to do but. I think it`s a wonderful story. I mean we first learned of these prisoners who were in the Cebu prefecture and -- in the Philippines and one of Michael`s fan as sent me a link. They were doing "Thriller." I showed Michael and he loved it. He just got such a kick out of it. 1,500 people moving in unison to his music.

BEHAR: Incredible.

PAYNE: It`s great. And so all the things we had done over the years with, you know, computer-generated images they were doing.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: You know, they were really physically doing it. It became part of their rehabilitation program.

BEHAR: Because that particular warden, I understand, was very much into that.

PAYNE: Oh yes, he`s a big Michael fan. He`ll tell you when you meet him the first song he sang as a little boy was "Ben." so we found out all of this after we got there. I knew that once Michael passed we were looking for, you know, opportunities to sort of reach out and, you know, be with his fans. It just hit me like a ton of bricks, we should go to the Philippines. He loved it. He loved the area to perform in. But he also loved seeing the prisoners. Sony was able to work it out. They have been such a champion and we found ourselves there. So we worked with them for two whole days, took two of the dancers, Drace (ph) and Daniel.

BEHAR: That`s all?

PAYNE: Yes, just two. Because we were split up to do the promotion for the DVD and blu-ray release tomorrow.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: So we went over there and we had a great two days with them. 1,500 inmates, 70 percent high risk.

BEHAR: Were the murders better dancers than the thieves?

PAYNE: Well, you didn`t know who was who. We were told 70% were high risk. Some were let out of solitary confinement, isolation to participate. We found out after.

BEHAR: I see.

PAYNE: You know but we were totally safe. It was like teaching a dance convention.

BEHAR: Well they probably loved it.

PAYNE: We had such a good time.

BEHAR: They were a captive audience so you can really focus attention on -- you know.

PAYNE: But I expected to experience one thing. We got there --

BEHAR: What did you expect to experience?

PAYNE: I thought we`d go there, and work with the guys who did "Thriller".


PAYNE: But they have a repertoire of like 30 songs. Many of them were Michael Jackson songs so they welcomed us by doing a short program. And we were in tears. It was just so moving and special. It had rained the entire week, those two days and it was really bright outside. The second day of shooting was Martin Luther king`s birthday.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: It was all these that sort of fell in place.

BEHAR: Things fell together for you. So do you have follow up information on the prisoners? I wonder if they - if some have been rehabilitated, if they changed their lives in any way.

PAYNE: Well I think the whole program over the past two or three years that it`s been in existence has really rehabilitated a lot of them. So much so that we don`t know who the murderers were. You know, they were supposed to be the dregs of that society. To us, it felt like people that we were just having a moment with, enjoying music and dance.

BEHAR: Well, why do you think it works?

PAYNE: The warden will tell you that he saw "The Shawshank Redemption"

BEHAR: Oh I - one of my favs.

PAYNE: Exactly. There was suppose to be a rumble, there was an Italian aria that was played and it calmed them.


PAYNE: So he whips out -- there was a rumble and I think, if the story is right. Before he came, there was nobody overseeing the prison. They had their own sort of unit in the prison. Nobody would deal with them.

BEHAR: Uh huh.

PAYNE: And so he went and there was a rumble about to happen and the first piece of music he could find was another one by Bites The Dust by Queen. And he played it and they started to sort of laugh and then they found themselves dancing and he was like, I`m on to something. So he started a program. And so instead of, you know, super hard labor, they rehearse. They make stuff and they rehearse.

BEHAR: Wow, music have charms.

PAYNE: Yes it does.

BEHAR: It soothes the prisoner?

PAYNE: Yes, it does, it does. And I think that`s the commonality. I mean, a lot of us could not speak to each other but we knew those counts. And we knew that music.

BEHAR: Well, Travis, don`t go anyplace. Because we`re going to bring out some of the dancers and put on a little show when we come back. Stay with us.

PAYNE: This is for you.

BEHAR: Oh what`s this a prison uniform.


BEHAR: We`re back with associate direct and choreographer Michael Jackson`s "This Is It", Travis Payne. And we are joined now by three dancers. How do you do, guys? Nice to see you. So this must have been a thrill to be in the video with Michael Jackson. Yes?

PAYNE: Absolutely. Absolutely.

BEHAR: These guys were picked out of 5,000?

PAYNE: Yes. It was a worldwide audition. People were able to submit footage of themselves for the first time and we invited 3,000 out of 5,000 submissions to L.A. to Nokia Theater and dwindled it down to 200 over three days and Michael picked the final 13. These are three.

BEHAR: And here they are. So what are you going to be doing for us today?

PAYNE: We`re actually going to perform a selection from the show called They Don`t Care About Us.

BEHAR: Okay. Go to it.

PAYNE: Thank you so much.


BEHAR: Thanks, you guys. Fantastic. Really great. I know. You`ll just keep going. Right?

PAYNE: Thank you so much.

BEHAR: I think I learned the lyrics.

PAYNE: Good.

BEHAR: Okay, thank you. "This Is It." Out on DVD tomorrow. Thank you for watching good night, everybody.