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Joy Behar Page
John, Elizabeth Edwards Separated
Aired January 27, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, John Edwards is an ex-senator and an ex-presidential candidate. Now it appears he may be an ex-husband as he and wife Elizabeth have finally separated.
Then, the devastation from the earthquake in Haiti cannot be truly measured. But one frightening number is that up to a million children are orphans. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN`s chief medical correspondent, will join me from Haiti.
And as a number of programs teaching abstinence only continues to grow, so does the numbers of teenage pregnancies. Apparently the only thing kids are abstaining from is listening.
All this and more, starting now.
We have some breaking news tonight: former presidential candidate John Edwards and his wife, Elizabeth, have legally separated. After two years of infidelity, insensitivity and an infant -- not hers -- it appears that Elizabeth has finally had enough.
"People" magazine first reported that John Edwards had moved out of the house and that Elizabeth was planning to call it quits.
Joining me are Amy Argetsinger, "Reliable Source" columnist at the "Washington Post"; David Caplan, senior editor of "People" magazine and Julia Baird, senior editor with "Newsweek".
Welcome, everybody.
David, they`re legally separated as of today apparently.
DAVID CAPLAN, SENIOR EDITOR, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Yes it`s done. They`re legally separated. And actually in the new issue of "People" we reveal that they actually separated shortly after Christmas. John, Elizabeth and the kids, they spent their holidays in North Carolina, a friend of theirs tells "People" that it was a nice Christmas, "It was really nice" is how she described it. But right afterwards, that`s when they split, they separated.
And actually decided really quickly before the holidays really briefly, Elizabeth met the baby at a hotel room in North Carolina with John through an intermediary and she bought the baby gift, Christmas gifts. So she was very adult about it.
BEHAR: That was very nice of her, don`t you think?
JULIA BAIRD, "NEWSWEEK": I think it`s an incredibly gracious act. But you keep thinking about this poor child in all of it and her father who denied the paternity for the first two years of her life. And to welcome her into the family that way, I think, was a very gracious thing to do, given the circumstances.
BEHAR: Amy -- Amy, you`re out there, right?
AMY ARGETSINGER, "WASHINGTON POST": Yes, I am.
BEHAR: It took her three years. I mean she`s known about this for three years. What took her so long to get rid of this guy?
ARGETSINGER: You can`t ever really know what goes on in a relationship, and clearly this is a very complicated relationship. You know, obviously she had a lot at stake in this presidential run. I think she wanted to win the White House as much as he did. And if there was an impetus to keep this quiet, that might have been it.
But now that`s all behind them. His political career is through. At this point it`s just the two of them, it`s just their family. And this is clearly a decision that was made in that situation.
BEHAR: It`s cynical in a way on both their parts when you think about it. I mean she knew about this three years ago. In her memoir last year she wrote, "I am his, he is mine." And now all of a sudden he is not hers at all.
CAPLAN: And you know it`s interesting. A lot of this -- (INAUDIBLE) see is this upcoming book coming out the politician and one of the allegations of that even within 12 hours of Elizabeth finding out about her diagnosis, in the book it claims that Elizabeth and John were both thinking how is this going to affect the polls. Of course, she denied it.
There`s a lot that wondering how they`re benefited from this.
ARGETSINGER: Well, you wonder if a book like that coming out whether that affects one`s decision. If it`s ok, if the two of them can work on it on their own, but then you have this other pressure, this other dynamic, their dirty laundry being aired, maybe that`s another breaking point, another final straw.
BEHAR: You think so?
ARGETSINGER: I don`t know.
BEHAR: I mean, "People" magazine, I was reading your article and he said he still deeply loves her. What better way to express this than having a baby with another woman. You know? He deeply loves her. He really is annoying lately, don`t you think so?
BAIRD: Well, he`s lost a heck of a lot of credibility. I was looking at some polls -- public policy polling which found that he had the lowest approval rating of anyone they ever polled at 15 percent in Carolina.
Right. His behavior has been duplicitous. He`s not only lied to the people closest to him but to the public over and over again. And I think that`s incredibly off putting.
BEHAR: Pretty nasty.
BAIRD: Right.
BEHAR: Is he paying child support now to the child?
CAPLAN: yes. He`s actually paying child support for about a year as well. And she`s actually looking for about $18,000 a month in sort of support. That`s where Rielle is.
BEHAR: He bought a house for Rielle Hunter?
CAPLAN: Yes, and what`s amazing about this actually, he bought a house for Rielle in Charlotte, North Carolina. And you know who went house hunting -- looking for a house with John was Elizabeth. So yet again that`s another testament to her character.
BEHAR: She went house hunting with him to find a house for the girlfriend?
CAPLAN: Exactly. And this is a house that cost a bit over $500,000.
BEHAR: What do you make of that, the psychological part of it?
BAIRD: When she went house-hunting, did she know about the paternity? Or was she just thinking about the affair?
CAPLAN: Yes. She knew. This is all recent. Maybe she didn`t want him to spend too much on her so she had to be there. I don`t -- it`s very surprising. A lot of people have that reaction. How could this woman go house hunting and buy the other woman a house? But maybe she wants to be involved with that, just to make sure if it`s done. You know.
BEHAR: I don`t understand that. Amy, what do you make of that?
ARGETSINGER: What do I make of the house hunting part?
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
ARGETSINGER: I think this is another twist in a pretty extraordinary relationship. And when I say extraordinary, it`s incomprehensible.
This is why we`re fascinated. A story like this and it`s a very compelling story and it`s very solidly reported by "People". We`re interested not because of any future that we have for the Edwardses in political life but because they`ve become a rather fascinating soap opera.
BEHAR: They certainly have. I mean it`s all over the place, this kind of infidelity that these men in high powerful positions. But he annoys me even more because he tried to pull the wool over our eyes and pretend like he could actually run for president when he knew that he was sleeping with this woman.
What`s -- somebody -- did Elizabeth give a Christmas present to the baby?
CAPLAN: Yes. This was incredible. She went -- in fact, for her shopping is very therapeutic and her sister actually tells "People" that what she did when this whole thing really wrapped more recently in December, she went shopping. It made her feel better. She bought all these presents for the baby.
When she gave all these gifts to this baby, the first thing she went for was the carriage and the stroller and stuff. And her sister says this is really a testament to her character. I mean it`s amazing. It`s just unbelievable.
BEHAR: And yet in that new book by those "Newsweek" people -- I forget the name of the book -- "Game Change", they say that she was a bitch in the book.
CAPLAN: Exactly, yes.
BEHAR: And I -- she can be a bitch if she wants to in my opinion.
BAIRD: I feel that in these circumstances like, you know she lost a son, she`s dealing with terminal cancer, she`s under incredible scrutiny. The things that she`s -- they said in that book she`s paranoid. Well, she has certainly a lot of reason to be paranoid if we look at what happened.
BEHAR: Doesn`t mean people are not trying to get you just because you`re paranoid.
BAIRD: Right. She was cranky. She didn`t want to hand out leaflets outside Walmart. I just feel for her with the extraordinary pressure. She`s also criticized for her ambition a lot. I think that someone who is in that position when their husband is running for president, you have to be ambitious. So why else would you -- what else will get you through it?
BEHAR: It`s only because she`s a woman that they even use the word ambition. Right?
The new book as you referred to before, "The Politician" from Andrew Young, a former Edwards aide, has some very salacious details in it.
I`m just going to run them by you to see what you think. Amy, you`re in on this, too. Don`t forget about us.
ARGETSINGER: Ok. I`m right here.
BEHAR: First of all, this guy, is he credible at all, do you think?
CAPLAN: He`s pretty credible. I mean, he`s a former staffer.
BAIRD: He was deep inside the situation. I mean he was the one who Edwards asked to claim paternity for a while.
BEHAR: But he claims he has a sex tape of John and Rielle. Does that ring true to anybody here?
BAIRD: That`s something I don`t want to see.
ARGETSINGER: John and Rielle are not of the generation that makes sex tapes. That`s what I find incredible about it.
CAPLAN: There`s a first time for everything.
BEHAR: Oh, I don`t know about that. You know exactly -- about the senator from Massachusetts, posing half naked in Cosmo.
CAPLAN: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
BAIRD: It seems like an always obvious claim at any point at a sex scandal like, "Oh, there`s a tape." So you know, maybe there is, maybe there is not. If it is, it kind of seems like most awful culmination of that narcissism that seems to have been kind of paramount.
CAPLAN: Other past presidents we have with stories like this, even (INAUDIBLE), and he was saying it`s people of this age don`t have it. This whole story has been surprising to us. We didn`t expect it from John Edwards. So who`s to say he doesn`t have a sex tape.
BAIRD: And yet very cliche at the same time.
CAPLAN: Exactly. Right. Exactly.
BEHAR: He paid Young to say Quinn was his baby and fake a DNA test. I`ve heard of faking an orgasm but never faking a baby. I mean, that`s really low, isn`t it?
BAIRD: Faking a DNA test? There`s a child involved here. I think that`s the embarrassing and awful thing about it all.
ARGETSINGER: And it`s the desperation of clinging to the final last political hopes. It was a very bad situation and yet it was the political campaign, the political future above all else.
BEHAR: Right, but he was very indiscreet and rather delusional if he thought he wasn`t going to get caught. He slept, according to Young, he slept in the marital bed and entertained the children that same day.
He`s got kids; they`re 11 and 5 or something. He brought her to the house when Elizabeth was out and had relations with the girl in the house. Couldn`t they go to a sleazy hotel like other creeps?
CAPLAN: These are pretty amazing accusations. Even a friend actually tells "People" that John in the earlier days used to be the guy who would after a long day just go back his room, call Elizabeth, watch a ballgame. But that in more recent years, totally changed. So really a lot of these accusations being made with some people (INAUDIBLE) -- you know what we can see sort of the newer John Edwards behaving like that.
BEHAR: So you believe a lot of it.
ARGETSINGER: And well, that`s what you get from "Game Change". That the guy didn`t really have the history of this kind of thing; that he wasn`t one of those politicians who everyone thought was fooling around. The Rielle Hunter thing sort of came out of the blue and it`s a big surprise for a lot people.
BEHAR: She`s another one. She says that she believes that the baby was the reincarnated spirit of the Buddhist monk. All babies look like Buddhist monks, don`t they? Either Buddhist monks or Winston Churchill.
Thanks, everyone.
When we come back, the latest on Charlie Sheen and more on Dennis Hopper`s deathbed divorce -- it`s juicy tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about John Edwards again. To recap, here`s the story in a nutshell: sick wife, mistress, love child and lies, lies, lies.
Now we just learned today legal separation.
Joining me now to call a louse, a louse are Joe Levy, editor-in- chief of Maxim magazine and actress and writer Alley Wentworth.
ALI WENTWORTH, WRITER: Also, by the way, next month`s cover of Maxim magazine.
JOE LEVY, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, MAXIM MAGAZINE: You`re not supposed to say before it hits the stands.
WENTWORTH: Well, you know, I just want to put it out there so maybe they`ll - you`ll think about this.
LEVY: I can`t stop thinking about you.
WENTWORTH: I`m tired of more magazine, I want Maxim.
BEHAR: I know. You know, speaking of more of this, you and George Stephanopoulos, your hubby, you must be having lots of interesting pillow talk about this John Edwards scandal, being...
(CROSSTALK)
WENTWORTH: That`s all we talk about to get hot at night. Come on.
BEHAR: The political scandal, it`s the greatest.
WENTWORTH: By the way, it was -- when that first broke, "The Enquirer" yes, a periodical I read, when it first broke, it was oh, no. How can this be, Edwards? And George looked at that picture in "The National Enquirer" of that kind of muddy face holding a baby and he`s like that`s him, that`s him.
BEHAR: It does look like him.
WENTWORTH: And it is a gift that keeps on giving.
BEHAR: I know.
LEVY: He recognized the baby? He saw the family resemblance?
WENTWORTH: Yes, he did.
LEVY: He`s a very talented man.
WENTWORTH: He knows a baby when he sees one.
BEHAR: You know, not for nothing but the baby looks like John Edwards.
WENTWORTH: Exactly.
BEHAR: Rielle Hunter, the girlfriend, alleged girlfriend, I suppose I have to still say that.
WENTWORTH: Of course, alleged mistress.
BEHAR: Hello, you know it now.
LEVY: He really admitted that the child is his now, do we have to keep saying alleged?
WENTWORTH: It changes every ten minutes. I don`t know...
LEVY: Ok. We`re back to denying.
BEHAR: But you know there`s a tell-all book that Andrew Young wrote and he says that -- this is so cute -- he says that Rielle used to call him "love lips". Isn`t that adorable?
LEVY: It is. It`s oddly also a name that I dance under if you`re in Times Square lately.
WENTWORTH: It`s your e-mail address if I`m not mistaken.
LEVY: Again, you`re not supposed to tell everybody.
WENTWORTH: I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Ok, talking about men who have behaved badly, Charlie Sheen`s ex-wife, Denise Richards, was on Oprah`s show yesterday talking about her volatile relationship with her ex-husband.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENISE RICHARDS, FORMER WIFE OF CHARLIE SHEEN: There were times during the marriage where, you know, there was a lot of verbal abuse. He never hit me. It wasn`t -- it was a lot of verbal; arguments got extremely heated. That scared me.
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, OPRAH WINFREY SHOW: He never hit you?
RICHARDS: He never hit me.
WINFREY: Did he push you, shove you?
RICHARDS: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: They`ve been divorced for years, these two. And now she`s on Oprah, why?
LEVY: I think to do this together with hand under a chin -- it showed that she`s serious about this. This is a very -- this is a serious matter.
WENTWORTH: Maybe she wants to get on the cover of Maxim again.
I think it`s because...
BEHAR: Let it go Ali.
WENTWORTH: I can`t, I can`t. Let these girls out. Let the world see them. I think that she came on for a number of reasons. One is during the divorce with Charlie she could have played the victim because of his supposed drug use and prostitution. But I think it was to clean up her image with Ricky Sambora. I think everybody attacked her because...
BEHAR: Because she took him away from...
WENTWORTH: That was "Little House on the Prairie". It`s Heather Locklear.
BEHAR: Heather Locklear. I get those two mixed up, don`t you?
I can`t keep up with my bimbos, you know what I mean.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: She`s perfect right. This is a chance for Denise Richards to rehabilitate her image and look like the sane one in the marriage.
WENTWORTH: By the way, she wore a diamond cross on Oprah, did you notice that?
BEHAR: I didn`t notice that.
LEVY: You can`t get your eyes out of that area, can you?
WENTWORTH: I can`t. Well, she was on the cover of Maxim.
BEHAR: She said that he had some nice qualities. And somebody said, yes, Bernie Madoff was good at math.
LEVY: Apparently not, actually.
WENTWORTH: There has to be something charming about Charlie Sheen. I think it`s like a Hekyll and Jyde thing -- I mean Jekyll and Hyde thing. Had you not given me the wine in the green room I wouldn`t be slurring my words.
LEVY: Again, you`re not supposed to tell everyone.
BEHAR: Poor George Stephanopoulos is all I have to say.
WENTWORTH: No, but he had to pay (INAUDIBLE) to see if I could be on Maxim and I said yes.
LEVY: And now you know I say that to every woman I meet.
BEHAR: Want to change the topic? Is this too boring for you?
WENTWORTH: No, obviously my breasts are still in focus.
BEHAR: The thing about Denise Richards is that she`s talking about too much publicity on her children but she goes on Oprah which only exacerbates the problem. It`s my point.
WENTWORTH: But Oprah is good publicity.
BEHAR: Exactly.
WENTWORTH: It`s not chance they are doing a reality show. I think she`s trying to clean up her mess.
LEVY: But she did a reality show. She actually did a reality show. This is not a woman who shies away from publicity although she is telling the story that her kids were confused about where daddy was at Christmas. How do you say there is no Santa Claus and daddy is in jail?
BEHAR: Very easy.
WENTWORTH: Especially as a Jew.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What does being Jewish have to do with that?
WENTWORTH: Santa Claus? I thought you didn`t...
My question is this -- don`t have kids. I don`t think any of these people should have kids. If you are a whoremonger and you like drugs. All right, you have your first set of kids but then if you start allegedly pulling knives and stuff, maybe not more kids with the next wife.
And not to do your segue but same with Dennis Hopper. If you are smoking pot and you have a loaded gun in your side table, and a 6-year-old daughter, these people should be getting Rottweilers or things that are a better fit into their lifestyle.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s -- you know what -- let`s talk Dennis Hopper. Dennis Hopper is on his deathbed allegedly and he`s filing for divorce from his wife because he doesn`t want to be married to her after he`s dead. Get it?
WENTWORTH: I get it.
BEHAR: You know this story, right?
LEVY: Yes, I`m aware of it.
BEHAR: He`s smoking a ton of marijuana. Do you think he`s compos mentis at this point? What`s going on there?
WENTWORTH: Was he ever lucid? I mean, we harken back to his films. I think first of all why do you want to be texting and e-mailing your lawyers on your deathbed when you`re stoned.
BEHAR: He`s doing medical marijuana or whatever.
WENTWORTH: He`s still stoned.
BEHAR: He`s very, very ill according to reports.
LEVY: He`s had cancer for years. It`s really bad now. He`s on death`s door.
But let`s remember, he`s been married to this woman for 14 years. They have a 6-year-old daughter. She`s a good deal younger than he is but clearly you`re married for 14 years, this is not a gold digger. I don`t understand exactly where all this is coming from.
There are gossip reports that his daughter, who is older than his current wife, is behind the move for the divorce so that perhaps she can lay claim to a greater portion of the estate.
WENTWORTH: But it`s not a huge estate, can I just add that.
BEHAR: It`s probably not.
WENTWORTH: I mean, in that world, in the celebrity world...
BEHAR: Yes.
WENTWORTH: ...it`s like a million something, right?
LEVY: It`s a million something but we have value -- the guy is a serious art collector, supposedly bought one of the Warhol soup cans for like $60 bucks and it`s now worth well over a million. I don`t -- I don`t really know what his total estate is going to turn out to be.
BEHAR: She also wants custody of the child which isn`t that...
WENTWORTH: That`s fine.
BEHAR: She`s going to get custody of the child when he passes away.
LEVY: Right.
WENTWORTH: Right.
BEHAR: I don`t see where that`s an issue, at all.
LEVY: I think the real issue, her real concern -- the wife`s real concern is will she have money to support this child once he passes away?
WENTWORTH: Right and she should.
BEHAR: She should have money.
WENTWORTH: Yes.
BEHAR: But the daughter from his previous should have some money also.
WENTWORTH: So all the offspring should get it.
BEHAR: Ok, sit right there, when we come back, we`re going to talk about Jerry Springer and Snooki (ph). I love it.
WENTWORTH: It`s a sitcom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my wacky panel. Jerry Springer and "Jersey Shore" star Snooki (INAUDIBLE) of television were both at Fox Woods Casino. Now here is our prescribed daily requirement of irony. Are your ready?
Snooki actually snubbed the talk show host, saying quote, "I`m way classier than that." And to prove it, she snapped her gum and her bra at the same time. Ok. Well, look, Snooki is saying she`s too classy.
LEVY: Yes.
BEHAR: The girl was on a "Jersey Shore" show, how shall I put it, a frigging "Jersey Shore" show.
LEVY: Let`s get specific about this. Let`s get very, very specific and let`s get into the show. This is the girl who, in episode one of "The Jersey Shore"...
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: Stripped down to her leopard print thong...
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: ...to get into the hot tub with the boys and the other girl said "Be a little classy, at least where a leopard print bikini bottom, don`t go in the hot tub in your thong."
BEHAR: You know that`s...
LEVY: So I think she`s already -- she`s already established that she is less classy than everyone else on that show.
BEHAR: Now that would have put her on the cover of "Maxim" magazine.
WENTWORTH: Well, I`m just going to say it looks like Snooki has got the April issue.
BEHAR: But what`s the good for harm in saying hi to Jerry Springer, who are you, Judy Dench?
WENTWORTH: I...
BEHAR: Say hello to Jerry Springer.
WENTWORTH: I would say hello to and I`m this much of a break class.
BEHAR: Doesn`t she know he was the Mayor of Cincinnati?
WENTWORTH: Who is Snooki to say anybody is less classy?
BEHAR: Ok, let`s -- let`s listen...
WENTWORTH: Why are we listening to Snooki?
LEVY: All right and by...
WENTWORTH: My name is Snooki.
LEVY: And you know, maybe she just saw Jerry Springer and thought if I talk to him, I`m going to have to take off my shoe and throw it at someone across the room. That`s usually what happens when girls like her...
BEHAR: Go wild.
LEVY: ...are talking to Jerry Springer. Yes, they just take off their shoes and start hitting people.
BEHAR: Well, you know about the fact that they were -- apparently making $5,000 an episode each of these kids I guess, right?
WENTWORTH: Yes.
LEVY: Yes.
BEHAR: And now they`re getting $10,000. MTV has conceded that point...
LEVY: Right.
BEHAR: ...and they`re giving them the money. Do you think they are worth it?
LEVY: Hair products is expensive, hair products is expensive.
WENTWORTH: I was going to say for her dialect coach to be classy now, to talk proper.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
WENTWORTH: It costs money.
BEHAR: Well, I mean, don`t you think that -- do they deserve this money? They do have a rating over there.
WENTWORTH: I`ve never seen the show; I`m too classy for that.
BEHAR: Yes.
WENTWORTH: But I mean, I guess, they`re imitating friends, setting you up for the joke.
LEVY: Oh really you want me...
WENTWORTH: ...setting you up for the joke.
LEVY: ...you want me to say that the 10 grand...
WENTWORTH: Yes.
LEVY: ...they settled for 10 grand an episode because they thought that`s what the cast of "Friends" got, they didn`t really know where to put the decimal point.
BEHAR: Ok, now another thing that`s happening over there is someone is shopping around naked photos of Jay Wow.
WENTWORTH: Yes, another classy.
BEHAR: I mean, what took so long? It took them a while, you know?
WENTWORTH: What? I don`t know. I -- I myself presented some naked Polaroids earlier today. Again, you know...
BEHAR: It`s not working.
WENTWORTH: I can`t help it.
LEVY: Yes, yes, it`s not naked if you`re actually still wearing the necklace. But I -- I from what I understand, Jay Wow might be wearing a wrap in these photos. She might be covered I`m not sure how naked she is.
BEHAR: So that`s very disappointing.
LEVY: Yes, it is a little, yes.
BEHAR: All right, before we go, how is George liking his new show at GMA?
WENTWORTH: You mean his new life in New York?
BEHAR: Yes.
WENTWORTH: He is loving it.
BEHAR: Is he?
WENTWORTH: Yes.
BEHAR: He has to get up at 3:00 in the morning?
WENTWORTH: Yes, that`s normal for us.
BEHAR: Is it really?
WENTWORTH: Yes, we don`t sleep.
BEHAR: No.
WENTWORTH: No. And he`s having a great time. And it turns out he likes -- he like to do the cooking.
He likes to talk about dating. He likes to talk to Tori Spelling; all the things that only mommy got you to do. He can actually do those.
BEHAR: Ok, that`s very good.
WENTWORTH: Yes.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys, for coming on. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know we all watch TV every night and see the horrible conditions in Haiti and the aftermath of the earthquake. But few of us really have actually been there to see the devastation in person. CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta is in Haiti and joins me via satellite now. Dr. Gupta, what is the latest, tell me?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well you know, in so many ways things have gotten better. Pretty good over the last two weeks. Simple things like getting food and water out to people, basic necessities, Joy. The first couple of days that you and I spoke even, there just wasn`t enough, simply put. I mean you had half a dozen food and water stations around the city, Port-Au-Prince, and now you have several hundreds. So that`s improved.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
GUPTA: There was concern early on about not getting medical supplies from -- within the city, within the airport to the places that need it to most. They were in the city but not getting to those places. That`s improved as well. In some places, in fact Joy, they have more doctors than they really need. They haven`t distributed those doctors really well. But obviously huge needs still going forward. People still coming up to hospitals with all kinds of wounds after the earthquake. What might be simple infections in the hand or feet can turn into devastating problems. So those things are still being dealt with.
BEHAR: There was a report that a man who was pulled alive who was under the rubble for two weeks. Is that confirmed? Is that possible even?
GUPTA: I saw the man today. I talked to his doctors as well. The right answer is no one knows for sure. Certainly the man says that. The family seems to confirm that. The doctors did some tests on him and really couldn`t tell for sure whether it fit together. I can tell you he looked pretty good. We know from previous survival stories like that, people who are buried for that long, tend to lose a lot of weight. There was a story about a man who got lost in the Sahara desert, Joy, eight days without water. He lost 33 pounds and needed 14 liters of fluid to just rehydrate him.
BEHAR: Wow.
GUPTA: This man wasn`t in that bad of shape. But certainly there have been cases around the world where people have survived that long after an earthquake or some other national disaster.
BEHAR: That is an amazing story to truly to hear someone could survive that long. But a lot of people are sleeping outside now. Why are they sleeping outside, are they afraid the buildings will fall in the aftershocks?
GUPTA: No question about it. And this was something that was a little unexpected. Obviously a lot of people dealing with physical trauma still. But imagine the emotional trauma. You were already frightened by what happened with the earthquake. But then more than 50 aftershocks occurred over the last two weeks.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
GUPTA: But then every time one of those occur, Joy, people go screaming out of buildings, they think it`s going to happen again. And even people who have their homes standing and livable, they prefer to stay outside. In fact we met families like that, that set up tents in the front yard because they just can`t bear the idea of possibly living through that again. That`s going to raise real issues about post traumatic stress incidentally, in the months and years to come, Joy.
BEHAR: Really and you know I was reading also that there was some riots for food. I saw some, you know, some skirmishes and things in the news. What do you know about that?
GUPTA: Well you know, yeah, there have been some incident where is people have been trying to get food ended at times the crowd became more unruly than the people would have liked and pepper spray was used, for example, I heard. I can tell you, Joy, I`ve been here for two weeks. I`ve seen a lot of these sorts of lines formed. And I can tell you, honestly, more often than not, people waiting in tight lines, no pushing, no shoving, no armed guards, sort of sitting in that heat waiting for water. Sometimes the first water they`ve received in five or six days. You know look, if I hadn`t had food or water for over a week, I`d want that for myself and my family as well. So you can imagine some of the behavior. But it hasn`t turned into some of the mob violence that people have been worried about. It hasn`t turned into the rampant lawlessness that some people are worried about. It hasn`t turned into the brutality that some people have talked about. I think that you`re seeing a natural progression of people wants to provide for themselves and for their family.
BEHAR: So that says a lot for the people, the Haitian people themselves that says they`re dealing with it the best they can. When are you planning to come back, by the way?
GUPTA: You know, I think sometime over the next several days. I really wanted to be here to be able to report some of the solutions. You know Joy, we spent so much time talking about the problems that have happened, but we are starting to see some solutions now and things are starting to turn. It`s still a lot of work necessary, but I think we`ll be reporting some of that.
BEHAR: Are there -- what are the major health issues facing the children? Because there`s a lot of talk about the orphans now and that the children are in bad shape down there. Tell me about that.
GUPTA: Well you know, keep in mind that even before this earthquake, three weeks ago this was a bad place to be a child and a bad medical infrastructure overall. So you know,80 percent poverty rate. Only 2 percent of kids actually finish high school in this country. So that`s the starting point, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
GUPTA: It is tough, because so many of the injuries as a result of rubble falling on arms or legs or these crush injuries, and the way that a lot of them are being dealt with is through amputations. They are simply losing their arms and legs. And it`s not a very handicap accessible society here. You really can`t get around a wheelchair that easily.
So they`re going to need prosthetics. They`re going to need to add those prosthetics fit. Refit as they get older. That`s going to be a major issue. There have been some concerns about infectious diseases, for example, running through some of the camps. That`s always something that comes up as a concern after a natural disaster. The good news is we haven`t seen it yet and they are getting clean water and clean food. Which I think is going to help curve the likelihood of that happening.
BEHAR: Thank you very much for joining us again today. Take care of yourself.
GUPTA: Thanks, Joy. You too.
BEHAR: There were almost 400,000 orphans in Haiti before the quake struck. Now some say that number could be as high as a million. With me now to discuss the future of Haiti`s orphans is Lisa Laumann, associate vice president for child protection at Save the Children. And Amy Knorr, Haiti program manager for World Vision. Thank you ladies for joining me. Lisa, let me start with you. A million is a very high number. Where are these children? Where are they all living?
LISA LAUMANN, SAVE THE CHILDREN: Well, we think they`re all in the Port-Au-Prince area, in the areas that were affected by the earthquake. The number includes children who we think are separated from their families, who are orphans or who may have lost one parent.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
LAUMANN: And we think they`re living in a variety of situations right now. Obviously, the situation is very severe.
BEHAR: Well Amy, Haiti is halting adoptions right now. They put a stop to them right now. Is that temporary? What`s happening? Why?
AMY KNORR, WORLD VISION: Yes, Haiti has issued a temporary halt on adoptions. And World Vision is happy that the Haitian government is supporting this. As of last week, eight agencies and Unicef were advocating for this. This is only adoptions that began to take place since the quake.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
KNORR: We`re not talking about adoptions, Joy, that were in process already before the quake.
BEHAR: There were lots of orphans even before the quake, there were a lot.
KNORR: There were lots of orphans - lots of --
BEHAR: The country was in trouble even before the earthquake. Yes.
KNORR: Exactly. Exactly, it`s important, I`d like to describe Haiti the best. I lived there for six years and it`s almost as though the Haitians are living on the edge, children are living on the edge, it`s about survival, it`s about food, it`s about water, it`s about maybe going to school. They`re living on the edge. And then some kind of disaster like this really just pushes them over.
BEHAR: Yes, I know. Lisa, some people say that adopting a child away from the community is not a good idea because it`s more traumatic to take the children let us say to France or the United States. What do you say about that? That could be a problem I think in placing all these children.
LAUMANN: Yeah, you`re absolutely right, it`s a big problem. And so as Amy was saying, what we`ve been advocating for is basically the -- not initiating new adoptions, there are children who are -- were already in the adoption process and well into the adoption process. And those adoptions I believe are going forward. Some have taken place and at least in the United States, the U.S. government is now facilitating it.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
LAUMANN: The question is what happens to these other children? And you can imagine a colleague of mine just said a few hours ago -- gave a great analogy. Imagine, imagine, you, imagine me. I`m an aunt. My nephew lives in California. And of course, the big one will hit there. And how do I get to my nephew in time? Who is going to care for my nephew and how am I going to feel and how is he going to feel if he`s adopted by some incredibly well meaning family lovely family in Japan?
So international adoption may be an option down the road.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
LAUMANM: But at this point in time what we`re really advocating for is the time and space to go through the processes of due diligence, research, verifying children`s situations so that we can make sure that they are to the extent possible with their birth families and with their extended family in their home communities.
KNORR: Right I think it`s important what Lisa said, we`re deeply touched by the outpouring of generosity from Americans and wonderful families that want to bring Haitians into their homes. But we`re just advocating - that we don`t want to err on the side of caution.
BEHAR: Right, okay, thank you very much, ladies for joining me. Up next, are abstinence only programs to blame for the rise in teen pregnancy? Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED: Basically, we`re dealing with teen pregnancy in our public schools after the fact. Why can`t we just prevent it before the fact?
UNIDENTIFIED: But we are. We are preventing it before the fact with abstinence programs.
UNIDENTIFIED: But if you provide birth control, you`re all but encouraging these kids to have sex.
UNIDENTIFIED: They`re going to have sex any way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a clip from the lifetime movie "The Pregnancy Pact" based on the true story of 18 Massachusetts high school students who got pregnant the same year. Why is this a hot issue at the moment? Because after a decade of declining teen pregnancies, the rate has gone up, a lot. So despite the millions of dollars poured into abstinence programs, it seems they`re not working.
I`m joined now by the author of the New York Times best seller "Give Me Liberty" Naomi Wolf. Lakita Garth, author of "The Naked Truth About Sex, Love And Relationships." and Scott Phelps, executive director of the Abstinence And Marriage Education Partnership. Okay, Naomi, what do you think about that? The abstinence programs not working? Are they working or not?
NAOMI WOLF, AUTHOR "GIVE ME LIBERTY": Well the evidence, the data shows that they`re not working. If you get a breakdown of the states that have been foremost in abstinence education, like George Bush`s Texas, those are the same states that are the highest in unwanted pregnancies. And I think that the reason is clear. These numbers don`t say that these kids are having less sex. They say they`re having sex more destructively. They`re having sex but not using a condom or not using contraception. And I think that abstinence education, while I`m all for boundaries. And we can talk about that, it creates a situation which girls especially think I feel desire, I`m not supposed to feel desire. I`ve learned about AIDS, STDS, and gonorrhea. It`s so scary, I`m just going to get drunk. I`m just going to hook up that I can check out and not be here. And that`s when the dangerous behavior, the damaging behavior takes place. We should teach them about desire and responsibility.
BEHAR: Let me just bring in here Lakita for a minute. Do you agree with that, Lakita, what she said?
LAKITA GARTH, AUTHOR "THE NAKED TRUTH": Well, actually, people talk about the rise in teen pregnancy, but people forget about the previous 15 years before that, when there was actually abstinence funding going, in which it reached an all-time low in a generation of not just sexual activity but also teen pregnancy.
You can actually go back several years when abstinence funding started to get cut and you`ll see that when strands and some of these programs started getting cut back, that the rise in teen pregnancy began. But we also forget that it was actually Bill Clinton was the first to give funding for abstinence education. When you`re talking about girls and what they do with desire and all these types of things, I would like to address that point, is that abstinence is empowerment when we`re talking for young ladies. Because the reality is that in our culture of instant gratification, and a hedonistic society we`re not empowering young women, we`re just teaching them to just instantly gratify themselves like we encourage males with the expectations of males.
WOLF: Can I jump into that?
BEHAR: Jump in.
GARTH: Okay for me, in negotiating a condom, we need to have girls be able to negotiate more than just a condom.
BEHAR: Okay. Okay lets -
GARTH: But to negotiate other things.
BEHAR: Okay, thank you. Go ahead Naomi.
WOLF: I just wanted to say I actually think that we have some common ground because I actually think that the straight intercourse model has been terrible for girls. Girls, there`s so much pressure to go straight to intercourse without going to first base, second base, third base, and stopping there which is what my mother`s generation used to do.
BEHAR: Yes.
WOLF: And that was actually a good model because there were social constraints not to go straight to intercourse, you could explore your body if you were a girl. You find out what felt good and you could learn to say yes and no. And ideally boys too could learn to say yes and no. So what I recommend is what we reteach is first base, second base, third base, stop. And I don`t know if that`s - if you agree with that or not. But it is a form of - I guess you can say abstinence and intercourse. But it`s yes to pleasure and sexuality when appropriate.
BEHAR: Uh huh, but you know, the abstinence programs cost, I believe, $150 million they`ve thrown into the abstinence programs. Just from a Republican point of view, isn`t it a waste of money if it`s not working?
WOLF: Yes that`s a good question.
SCOTT PHELPS, ABSTINENCE & MARRIAGE EDUCATION PARTNERSHIP: Yes, the reality is nobody wants to fund programs that don`t work. And the reality is very few kids are actually getting the abstinence education programs. All the federal funds that are available only reach about 8 percent of the teenagers that are out there. And it`s really a thimble full compared to what they`re getting in terms of safe sex messages in schools and through other programs.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
PHELPS: And actually when you`re talking about abstinence programs, it really is a very well rounded message. We`re talking about avoiding alcohol and tobacco and drugs and all kinds of things that are associated with sexual activity.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
PHELPS: And what I think kids really need is a cheerleader. Kids want to do well. They don`t want their live to end up in a ditch. What they need someone to say yes you can do it, they don`t need the, you`re going to do it anyway, so here`s the contraception.
BEHAR: No but you see that`s the flaw in the argument as far as I can see. They`re going to do it anyway.
(UNKNOWN): Yes.
BEHAR: Where is the reality of the situation. If you`re a young girl and you`re sexually active, you might need contraception, you might need a condom. And the points that these people are giving them is don`t do it. Well, I`m doing it is the answer. I`m doing it.
GARTH: Joy, Joy, the reality is, is that for other behaviors, which we have age limits, such as drinking, smoking, you can`t do those until you`re 21 -- in most states.
BEHAR: They do it anyway. And they do that also -- Lakita
GARTH: You`re right, they don`t - you`re right some of them do. But the standard is, the expectations that you should not do this, because nothing good comes from a teenager smoking, drinking or having sex. Nothing. Even Jerry Springer is quoted the saying "teens should not be having sex." Now grant it, they are going to -- some are going to have sex. But what you have done is you have lowered the bar for the entire group of young people and just saying well, you`re all going to do it anyway, so therefore, a, b, c, d.
BEHAR: Yes but are you against teaching them about condoms and contraception?
GARTH: We actually teach them, let me clarify the misnomer. Because the media has been complicate in this.
BEHAR: Make it quick, I don`t have that much time.
GARTH: Okay as chairman of the largest abstinence education organization on the planet, abstinence only does not mean abstinence is the only thing that is taught. Scott can tell you, young people learn about contraception, but they learn that the best choice is to abstain and focus your energies on that. Abstinence is the only 100 percent way to protect yourself from STDS and pregnancy.
(CROSSTALK)
WOLF: Okay, I`m not the chairman of an organization, I`m the mother of a 14-year-old daughter. And I think that to just say, well, you know, the best thing is no sexual activity at all until you are married is --
GARTH: Okay, you define that.
WOLF: Bear with me. Well, I think we should define it. I think it would be great to teach sexual gradualism. What I mentioned before, but with that said, were you guys sexually abstinent until marriage? Scott?
GARTH: Yes, I was. I was a virgin when I got married. And it really wasn`t that hard, it wasn`t that hard at all.
WOLF: Really.
GARTH: Because I actually had standards and unqualified applicants need not apply. Because as a president and CEO of my company, you have to fill out an application just to clean my toilet. Most girls are not given that requirement just to take off your clothes and have sex.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Am I hearing her quickly correctly --
WOLF: How about you?
PHELPS: How about me what?
WOLF: Were you sexually abstinent until you were married?
PHELPS: First of all my subjective experience doesn`t have anything to do with the fact of reality.
WOLF: I think it`s very important because we`re telling kids to do something that we`re not willing to do or able to do.
BEHAR: But am I understanding correctly that abstinence-
GARTH: I agree. Which is why we should not put business Bristol Palin as a spokesperson for abstinence.
(CROSSTALK)
WOLF: We didn`t name her as that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: The moose is out of the barn as they say.
GARTH: Get some who succeed it. I want financial advice from the wealthiest man in the world, I don`t want financial advice from a man - not someone who got ripped off by Madoff.
BEHAR: But am I to understand that the abstinence programs do teach to use protection also? If you are sexually active. That`s just what I`m - confused about.
(CROSSTALK)
PHELPS: The safest healthiest best message for sexually active teens is you don`t have to keep going down that path and our most responsive, listen.
(CROSSTALK)
WOLF: We know that.
BEHAR: But if you give a seat belt to a kid in the car, why not give them a condom when they`re in the back of the car?
PHELPS: Yes.
BEHAR: Don`t go anywhere we`ve got more to talk about, be back in a minute.
GARTH: Because the vast majority --
BEHAR: Hang on Lakita.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel and we`re talking teen pregnancy and abstinence education. And you two were getting into an argument about personal --
PHELPS: A wonderful discussion -
GARTH: I agree -
(CROSSTALK)
GARTH: I`m the best qualified person on here to talk about be abstinence because I actually did it.
BEHAR: Okay.
GARTH: So I can tell you how to do it.
BEHAR: Okay wait a second, hang on, go ahead.
PHELPS: The point is, everything that we teach is objectively factual research-based. It has nothing to do with personal subjective experience. I don`t go to class when I talk to kids about what I did and didn`t do. So much as tell them what is the objective fact. Waiting until they are married to have sex is the safest healthiest choice. We right now are out of 40 percent wedlock birth rate, we are 5 years away from a 50 percent out of wedlock birth rate. We must teach this generation that marriage matters and you should wait until you are married to have sex and have children. It`s a critical message. it`s an objective message.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: When you say sex education, are you talking about intercourse specifically? Because a lot of these girls -
PHELPS: We are talking about all types of sexual activities.
BEHAR: Because a lot of these kids are doing oral -
PHELPS: Because what Naomi is talking about is -
BEHAR: Because they think what you`re saying is intercourse only.
PHELPS: Yeah and so what Naomi is --
BEHAR: So a lot of STDS are increasing because of that.
PHELPS: That`s right.
WOLF: I think bringing back petting. Petting -- was safe, healthy, it was good for you. It felt good.
BEHAR: Yes, I love petting - I love petting now.
(LAUGHTER)
WOLF: You know, if you tell me -
BEHAR: I`d be a virgin again just for the -
(LAUGHTER)
GARTH: I can tell you about being a virgin. And when this show is finished, my husband and I have a lot of time to make up for because I actually waited. Now, listen - let`s get back to what Naomi said --
BEHAR: Listen, Lakita that doesn`t always work, okay, I waited also and it didn`t work.
(CROSSTALK)
GARTH: But you know what, it really wasn`t - it was not that hard to wait. And that is because the very thing we were taught.
WOLF: It was very hard to wait.
GARTH: Naomi is talking about what about the kids that actually are sexually active. Well actually Eunice Kennedy Shriver, herself, in a study that was conducted in Atlanta Georgia. The vast majority, like 2/3 of girls who would have sex regret that they had sex and wished that they had waited but nobody told them. So we`re not even looking at the cues of those that have had sex.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Hold on. WOLF: I have to tell you, if you look at the data that I examined in my book, promiscuities which is about sexual maturation - when teenage girls in northern Europe where they teach girls about desire, girls don`t learn where their clitoris are in sex education classes here. Men learn, boys learn about erections and ejaculations, girls don`t learn the first thing about how to pleasure themselves so they can wait, for god sakes.
GARTH: What we are saying here -
WOLF: In northern Europe, the rates of unwanted pregnancy are lower. Girls know about their bodies, about their desire and how to take responsibility --
BEHAR: But I think what Naomi and I are saying is -
GARTH: Nobody is against that, Naomi.
BEHAR: Wait a minute, hold on Lakita. You know what we`re saying is, teach abstinence but teach the rest of it, too.
PHELPS: Yes, they are getting the rest of it.
BEHAR: Don`t just say abstinence is the way to go when it`s not the only way to go.
PHELPS: The reason for abstinence is -
WOLF: Good. Well said. Good policy.
PHELPS: Thank you, the reason for abstinence education is because they were only getting the other stuff. Teens are learning about contraception in school and abstinence doesn`t include that. The abstinence program are to say there`s also another choice. We believe that kids should have a choice.
WOLF: Absolutely.
PHELPS: Kids today are so pressured. 10 hours of media.
BEHAR: There`s a lot of different messages.
PHELPS: Ten hours of media per day saying, go, do it. What we think kids need is the opportunity to say, you know what you don`t have to give into that pressure. You can stand up to that.
BEHAR: I agree with that.
PHELPS: So what we are teaching them is how - that`s exactly what abstinence education is about. Okay so we`re all one happy family.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You two take it outside. Thanks everyone for joining me tonight. Thank you for watching. Good bye Lakita, good night, everybody.
END
