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Joy Behar Page
Kerrigan Family Murder?; Jackson`s Autopsy Details; Tigers Girls; John Edwards Proposes?; Ellen`s "Idol" Debut
Aired February 10, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, strange new details in the death of Michael Jackson. Investigators at the scene found needles, alcohol pads and an oxygen tank. What they didn`t find was anything to resuscitate in the case of disaster.
Then John Edwards runs for president, cheats on his wife, has a baby with the other woman, buys the woman a house and now might even have proposed marriage to her. Say what you will but the man can multi-task.
And when it comes to men most women have a type, either sensitive or strong and silent. My guest today like their men tall dark and incarcerated. Prison wives will be here.
All that and more coming up right now.
Well, now that the coroner has ruled the death of Daniel Kerrigan a homicide, the results of a fight he had with his son, Nancy Kerrigan is waiting to hear if her brother will be charged with murder.
Here to sort through this legal morass is Judge Jeanine Pirro, a former DA and the host of the "Judge Jeanine Pirro Show." Hi.
JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO, HOST, "THE JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO SHOW": Hi.
BEHAR: Ok, so you`re all warmed up about this case?
PIRRO: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: So what`s going to happen now? Is he going to be slapped with murder charges?
PIRRO: Well, I think he`s going to be slapped with some kind of a homicide. The bottom line is when the medical examiner categorized or classified a death as a homicide --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: -- the DA really has no choice but to take this case into the grand jury and try to get anything from a murder to a manslaughter.
Now, I want you to envision this. You`ve got the father, the victim who ultimately dies on the floor.
BEHAR: Right.
PIRRO: In a pool of blood, broken pictures, an entry on his neck and a cartilage fracture in the larynx area.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: Now, the Kerrigan family ironically is almost saying, look, enough about the dead let`s deal with the living, you know, this is premature.
BEHAR: And inaccurate.
PIRRO: And inaccurate --
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
PIRRO: Pre-mature, I mean, like they have medical examiners, did they do the autopsy. The guy had a cartilage fracture in his larynx that means he was choked. And he ultimately had a heart attack. So they are almost like saying -- what they apparently have been saying for awhile and that is that, you know, he`s got post-traumatic stress syndrome --
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
PIRRO: -- let`s not worry about it.
BEHAR: Right, right.
PIRRO: But this clearly a homicide.
BEHAR: And he was drinking and he was allegedly drinking.
PIRRO: And he was drink -- he was bombed--
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
PIRRO: I think they had to mace him or something to get him under control.
BEHAR: Yes, but I mean, their point is, you know, the father is gone we can`t do anything about that. Let`s try and save the boy, right?
PIRRO: Well, you know what, they had a chance to save that boy. They knew for years based upon what the ex-wife was saying that he was beating his ex-wife. He went to jail for beating his ex-wife --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: He had post-traumatic stress syndrome, he was violent guy, an alcoholic. What, you waited until he killed your father?
BEHAR: I know. Let`s listen to the wife. We have a piece of tape, go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever talked to his family about the violence?
JANET KERRIGAN, MARK KERRIGAN`S EX-WIFE: I did on an -- on one occasion and the day that he pushed me to the ground and punched me in the face two days later, you know Danny came to my house. He came to the door and he saw my black eye and my swollen face. And he basically said to me, you know it`s the booze and he walked away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s the booze, oh the abuse excuse.
PIRRO: Yes.
BEHAR: He`s giving her that he hit her because he was drunk.
PIRRO: And isn`t that the ultimate irony --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: -- that the victim ends up dying as a result of an altercation with this guy has previously said, oh it`s the booze.
And that`s the problem. We make excuses for people who commit domestic violence. And if they`re in our family then we allow it even more. And the shame of this is that, you know, you can`t say, "Enough about the dead. Let`s just deal with the living."
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: This guy, if he`s allowed to get away with it has a real problem. He beat his wife to the point where he was sent to prison for two years.
BEHAR: Right.
PIRRO: You know he is a violent guy who`s got a history of mental illness and that`s the rub.
BEHAR: So he has a history of mental illness, he`s an alcoholic, he beat his wife up, he has post-traumatic stress disorder and yet he`s walking around like the rest of us.
PIRRO: Right and --
BEHAR: How does that happen?
PIRRO: I think it happens because families protect abusive people within their ranks.
BEHAR: But what about the system, why does the system let somebody like that loose?
PIRRO: Well, they put him in prison for two years.
BEHAR: It`s not enough.
PIRRO: I mean that really -- well, but you know it depends on what he did to the wife. Apparently it was several beatings, he beat her on a regular basis. But the system will not work Joy --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: -- if he was allowed to get away. Because the Kerrigan family is saying look, this is premature and inaccurate. I mean, who are you to say that the autopsy is premature?
BEHAR: Well --
PIRRO: And that the medical examiner doesn`t know what he was doing. The guy has got a fractured larynx.
BEHAR: But even if they say that, that doesn`t hold up in court anyway -- what the family says.
PIRRO: Sure.
BEHAR: Right?
PIRRO: Of course not and as DA I will take what the family said --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: -- into consideration but the bottom line is, this guy is a danger to the community. He`s done nothing but exhibit that he is not, you know worthy of walking around with the rest of us.
BEHAR: Ok, but if they say that he was drunk and belligerent during the time he was strangling his father. Does that - is that a mitigating factor?
PIRRO: Sure it is. It`s a mitigating factor and they might charge a lesser degree of homicide but here is the problem.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: Because he`s got a history of mental illness, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: He`s going to use the insanity defense. He`s going to say that he was insane at the time. It was exacerbated by booze and then although juries only let people off in five percent of the cases where they claim insanity they may say, you know this guys was in the Army, he served us well.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: He just went off to deep end, it`s our fault. Where did we go wrong that this Army guy, you know, is now killing people?
BEHAR: But if he uses the insanity defense that`s different from the drunken defense.
PIRRO: Right, right.
BEHAR: The drunk defense doesn`t hold up.
PIRRO: No --
BEHAR: I could strangle you right now and pour alcohol on you and say I was drunk?
PIRRO: Or I was drunk -- we both got drunk.
BEHAR: But the coroner could not figure out when I drank the drink.
PIRRO: Sure he can. Don`t you --
BEHAR: You mean to tell me, if I strangled you right now?
PIRRO: Yes.
BEHAR: And then I have a drink --
PIRRO: Right.
BEHAR: He knows that I had the drink after I strangled you?
PIRRO: Yes. Because if he --
BEHAR: Wow.
PIRRO: -- no, if the person who was strangled -- you pour the alcohol on me?
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: Then they could tell -- in the autopsy, they can tell if there`s still alcohol on the stomach of the people --
BEHAR: No, but what if I don`t throw it on you I just drink it?
PIRRO: And you drink it?
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: We probably can`t tell but they`d ask you to take a blood alcohol and your lawyer would say no. If your weren`t driving a car you wouldn`t care about license you wouldn`t take it.
BEHAR: Oh what a mess.
PIRRO: What a mess.
BEHAR: This system is not working. We`ll be back in 60 seconds with the disturbing details of Michael Jackson`s autopsy. You`re good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We have fallen into the rabbit hole as the details of Michael Jackson`s death becomes curiouser and curiouser. Tonight, its new and bizarre autopsy details like the fact that he weighed a mere 136 pounds, he was nearly bald and the tip of his nose was missing.
Back with me is Judge Jeanine Pirro.
Ok, so what about that he was so isolated this guy that nobody noticed that the nose was missing, that there was -- 136 pounds. You know I found out today he was very tall I didn`t realize that.
PIRRO: Yes.
BEHAR: I never saw him in person.
PIRRO: And you know what`s amazing, I`ve seen him in person. What`s amazing to me is that the guy was able to get off and dance. I mean, if you saw, you know the rehearsals.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: He was able to function and you know, here`s a guy who apparently had you know, the tattoos and by the way, we found out Joy, for the first time that he really did have a skin pigment disease.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: A number of people laughed that off -
BEHAR: We used to make fun of him, yes.
PIRRO: Yes, it was real, he had that disease.
BEHAR: Right.
PIRRO: But at the end of the day which ever, the guy was falling apart and then you`ve got this doctors coming in and pricking him with needles --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: -- and picking his pockets, it`s a disaster what happened to this guy.
BEHAR: Well, he`s been charged with involuntary manslaughter.
PIRRO: Right, right.
BEHAR: Which means there was no intent to hurt, right.
PIRRO: Well, there was no malice.
BEHAR: No malice.
PIRRO: But that his reckless and his negligence was so great that he violated every rule of medicine. I mean, think about it, can you imagine going into the operating room and they don`t have resuscitation equipment for you.
BEHAR: Yes that pretty (INAUDIBLE) --
PIRRO: Then don`t have precision dosing, they don`t have you know monitoring, I mean, this guy was out of control.
BEHAR: But it`s beyond malpractice, right? It`s really beyond malpractice.
PIRRO: I know and that`s why they are bringing it in criminal (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: This is the intersection between criminal justice and the practice of medicine which is really about doctors who care more about money. This guy made $150,000 a month.
BEHAR: I know, I know.
PIRRO: Than they care about the Hippocratic Oath that they took
BEHAR: Right.
PIRRO: I mean, shame on him.
BEHAR: $150,000, I mean, HMOs don`t pay that.
PIRRO: Oh now they don`t, they don`t and that`s why they get these concierge doctors. And then the amazing thing --
BEHAR: Concierge (ph) doctor, I like that.
PIRRO: The amazing thing is after he died, he said, "By the way you owe me $300,000, you owe me for two months." Are you kidding you`ve killed the guy.
BEHAR: Wow, that`s nervy.
PIRRO: Yes.
BEHAR: But all of these little details that are coming out about his weight and the nose and all this.
PIRRO: Yes that`s sad.
BEHAR: That`s going to make it look worst for Dr. Murray.
PIRRO: Yes for Murray it does.
BEHAR: Yes that`s not good.
PIRRO: I though you`re going to say for Michael. Yes --
BEHAR: No, for -- no Michael is dead.
PIRRO: Yes he was preying. It`s like a vulture, preying on his victim. I mean, he was pricking this guy full of needles. He should have been giving him food so that he`d gained some weight.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: He should have been trying to heal him. He was addicted to all kinds of prescription drugs.
BEHAR: Right.
PIRRO: What was he doing and giving Propofol, can you imagine every night saying, "Honey, you know I need to sleep tonight can you give something that they give me in the hospital room, in the operating room."
(CROSSTALK)
PIRRO: You have it at home without resuscitation equipment?
BEHAR: Several of my husbands have heard me say that.
PIRRO: Oh they tried to use.
BEHAR: Well, you know before we go. Let`s just talk something lighter for a second.
PIRRO: Ok.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know if it`s lighter. But you know Elin Woods is going back to Tiger. What do you make of that?
PIRRO: I think she`s an amazing woman.
BEHAR: You do?
PIRRO: I think that this woman is thumbing her nose at the rest of the society. And I`m going to give her the benefit of the doubt based upon what her friends are saying.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: That`s it`s not for the money because you know, she had a pre- nup and she only gets so much. I think here`s a woman who says, you know what, I caught him, he`s apparently devastated; crying, depressed and went into rehab.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: Look, I`ve got a life, I`ve got a marriage, I have two kids. It`s none of your business if I want to work it out with him and by the way I`ll kill him if I ever catch him texting Rachel Uchitel, or Uchitel or whatever.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. Who has a job on "Extra" by the way.
PIRRO: She does?
BEHAR: She has a job, yes. And Ashley Dupree has a job with the "Post".
PIRRO: So what are we doing?
BEHAR: I don`t know we just, we act -- we`re good girls and we get these jobs.
PIRRO: Yes it`s not right.
BEHAR: But you know everybody is working, it`s one big happy family.
PIRRO: Yes but we could have been this to 20 like the rest of us.
BEHAR: That`s true. Yes I was too busy being depressed. But anyway, what about the fact that --
PIRRO: You were never depressed.
BEHAR: I was for a minute, post partum remorse. I have post partum depression --
PIRRO: Yes, right we are all. Yes I had a couple -- did you take it out on the kids or are they all right?
BEHAR: No, of course not, you know, what am I, Sylvia Platt (ph)?
But here`s the thing.
PIRRO: Right.
BEHAR: The other story and quickly before we go is Rielle Hunter and Edwards now they`re saying -- the "Enquirer" is saying that he proposed marriage to her.
PIRRO: Let me tell you something.
BEHAR: He`s denying it but the "Enquirer" has been right.
PIRRO: Oh he denied he dated her and that it wasn`t his baby. Let me tell you something --
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: David Pecker (ph) and the "Enquirer" no more than the FBI, I`m convinced of this.
BEHAR: David Pecker what a great name.
PIRRO: Yes, he`s one of the great -- he`s a great guy by the way.
BEHAR: Yes.
PIRRO: And I totally believe in them getting married. I do, I do.
BEHAR: Ok honey.
PIRRO: They probably will.
BEHAR: All right Jeanine, thank you.
PIRRO: It`s good to see you.
BEHAR: And you`ll be back with us in -- a little later. Yes you will. More on the latest shocker from the John Edwards scandal. That`s right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I love this one. The "National Enquirer" is reporting that the ever-entertaining John Edwards has asked his mistress Rielle Hunter for her hand in marriage which apparently is the only part of her body she hadn`t only given him.
And while he`s allegedly buying her a $3.5 million beach house he has not yet bought her an engagement ring. Deferring that purchase until his divorce from wife Elizabeth is finalized. The Edwards camp of course has denied all of this.
Here to discuss this and a few other topics are author of "Poor Little Bitch Girl" the fabulous Jackie Collins and founding editor of Huffington Post, Roy Sekoff.
Ok who are we going to believe the "Enquirer" or John Edwards?
JACKIE COLLINS, AUTHOR, "POOR LITTLE BITCH GIRL": Well, I think she has given him a little bit of her hand sometime along the way.
ROY SEKOFF, FOUNDING EDITOR, HUFFINGTONPOST.COM: Yes, well, you know, I mean, if we look at the track record, right?
COLLINS: Exactly, exactly, I mean interesting.
SEKOFF: So far the "Enquirer" -- the "Enquirer" has been right every step of the way.
BEHAR: I know.
SEKOFF: And John Edwards has lied about it in every step of the way. So if I got to put my money on who`s telling the truth on this one, "Enquirer."
COLLINS: Yes, exactly, I say yes.
BEHAR: But I mean, at least he`s waiting until the divorce is final before giving her the thing -- the engagement ring.
COLLINS: Oh that`s so nice.
BEHAR: And so he`s so good.
COLLINS: How thoughtful of him.
SEKOFF: You know, but -- but -- you know, look at this guy, how far has he fallen. I mean, two years ago we were talking about him being in the White House.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: Now, they`re talking about his physical endowments. I mean, it`s --
BEHAR: I know, his sex tapes.
SEKOFF: -- it`s not a good transition, yes.
COLLINS: I hear they`re quite impressive.
BEHAR: Really?
COLLINS: Oh yes.
BEHAR: What the tape or --
COLLINS: No, the physical endowments.
BEHAR: No kidding, where did you hear that?
SEKOFF: That`s the word. Yes.
COLLINS: People try (INAUDIBLE).
SEKOFF: Yes, that`s the word, yes.
COLLINS: He knows.
SEKOFF: Yes, I do, I do. But here is the --
BEHAR: Oh I`m really blushing now.
SEKOFF: But here`s the thing, you`ve got to look -- you`ve got to look at this woman that he is --
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: -- saying is the true love of his life. Let`s look at the track record.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: I mean, in the book remember.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
SEKOFF: They said that she threw a fit when he told her that he had to break a date to fly back to be with Elizabeth when she was re-diagnosed with cancer.
BEHAR: Oh.
SEKOFF: That`s nice -- marrying material wouldn`t you say.
COLLINS: Yes I would say.
SEKOFF: Yes, lovely.
COLLINS: Yes, lovely.
BEHAR: Would you ever marry a guy who didn`t give you an engagement ring?
COLLINS: Oh well, absolutely not. You know how I love jewelry.
BEHAR: No, you -- exactly.
Now, the reports says that John felt Rielle deserve this, don`t they - - the ring and the house and everything else. Why does she deserve it? What did she do? The deserve each other we know that, but why does she deserve all of these things?
COLLINS: Well, we have to see the sex tape and then we`ll be able to tell you exactly what she did.
BEHAR: Or so we`re harkening back to the other conversation we just had two second ago.
COLLINS: Of course, yes.
SEKOFF: You know, I think it comes down to -- I want to play Freud --
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: But I think he`s trying to justify the thing. So it`s, "oh this wasn`t some sleazy campaign trail affair" --
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: This is true love, you know pitter-patter, pitter-patter. But if we remember from Andrew Young`s book, he called her a weirdo and a freak and a slut.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: Is this the guy you`re going to marry?
BEHAR: Oh no, a good point.
SEKOFF: Exactly.
BEHAR: So what about Elizabeth? I mean, I feel bad for Elizabeth. I do. Because she`s had cancer and she lost a child. I mean, she`s going through hell again.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: With this idiot. I mean, it`s awful isn`t it?
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Right.
COLLINS: I think it`s a very bad situation for her to be in especially if she`s sick because that is not helping. Especially when they are making comments about well, she`s going to die soon and then we`ll be rid of her, you know?
BEHAR: Yes that was one of the more charming moments.
COLLINS: Yes, exactly.
SEKOFF: It`s kind of been like a fidelity Chinese water torture, you know, the drip, drip, drip, drip, drip.
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: You know, it starts off, look, it was just an affair or it`s been a long affair. Well, exactly I`m pregnant, we`ll it`s not my baby, it is my baby, on and on and now they`re going to get married.
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: Our late Dave Matthews, remember he wanted to have a baby --
COLLINS: Oh course.
BEHAR: Oh yes.
SEKOFF: You promised to Dave Matthews --
COLLINS: I know.
SEKOFF: -- on the rooftop.
BEHAR: Yes exactly.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: I wonder if they`ll have Dave Matthews is in the big wedding, you know on one of those --
COLLINS: They`ll probably go but then she`s going to die first, poor Elizabeth.
BEHAR: They should go to Leonard, Leonard (INAUDIBLE). They throw a fabulous special.
Ok, I interviewed Jenny Sanford, Mark Sanford`s soon-to-be ex-wife just yesterday. And I asked her about Elizabeth Edwards and the sex tape. So watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNY SANFORD, DIVORCING SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR MARK SANFORD: My heart goes out to her.
BEHAR: Is that --
SANFORD: I mean, she`s got a lot her plate and --
BEHAR: Well, there`s now --
SANFORD: -- and I mean, nobody deserves all of that.
BEHAR: Well, you know, there`s allegedly a sex tape now, I mean --
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: -- you at least have been spared that since he`s in Argentina.
SANFORD: Oh, you know, when I heard about the sex tapes and Mark was with the boys. I walked in the room the other day and I said -- I looked Mark in the eye -- and I said, "I hope there are no tapes coming."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Oh my God.
BEHAR: Oh yes, I wouldn`t want to be around her when the sex tape emerges from Mark Sanford. Would you?
COLLINS: No I wouldn`t want to have that conversation with a husband that had cheated on me. Oh, I hope there`s not a sex tape coming. I mean, that`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know. Well, their relationship was odd wasn`t it? He went to her for advice and everything.
SEKOFF: But how is she going to believe his answer. Like, oh, no, no sex tape, oh wait a minute weren`t you the one on the Appalachian Trail --
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: When you`re actually down in Argentina.
COLLINS: Yes, I like that.
SEKOFF: Not hiking and (INAUDIBLE), I`m mean it`s a --
BEHAR: Exactly --
SEKOFF: -- you know, not exactly an honest broker there.
COLLINS: You know if I wrote these characters I would be laughed off the page.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: Nobody will believe it.
BEHAR: Well, I know.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, you don`t have to even make this stuff up anymore.
COLLINS: I have to tone it down. That`s what I do. I do have a cheating politician in "Poor Little Bitch Girl" and if I made him up, you know, he would be even much, much worse than he is.
BEHAR: Well, was it art imitating life or life imitating art in this case?
COLLINS: That was art imitating life.
BEHAR: It was.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
Now, but she`s seems to be, Jenny Sanford, at least dumped the guy.
COLLINS: She did.
BEHAR: She didn`t stand next to him, although she said he didn`t ask her too.
SEKOFF: Right.
BEHAR: When he told his sordid detail of the story. But I like her better because she didn`t stand next to the guy.
COLLINS: But he did ask her how he was on television, didn`t he? Didn`t he say to her, "How did I look on that TV show?"
BEHAR: Oh he`s a complete narcissist.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: But that seems to be the disorder de jure (ph). Here, they`re all narcissistic disorders were talking about.
SEKOFF: But you know, this is what -- what does it take to think that you`re going to be -- you can run the country. It takes a little bit of a -- narcissism to start off with.
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: To think that you`re the answer and especially a guy like John Edwards?
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: Who was having the affair and still went ahead and ran for president?
COLLINS: Exactly.
SEKOFF: Knowing that this had to come out, I mean, you know, come on.
BEHAR: That`s real chutzpah.
COLLINS: And Clinton set the example.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: You know I did not have sex with that woman.
BEHAR: Right, right.
COLLINS: He set the example for all the teenagers in the country that a BJ was not you know a bad thing and not sex.
BEHAR: Exactly. I know, kids got confused by that.
COLLINS: Exactly.
SEKOFF: I know I did.
BEHAR: Now, what about the fact -- well, we all did. We all like, really. Ok.
COLLINS: Oh, ok, no.
BEHAR: Now, do you remember this Rachel Uchitel with Tiger Woods?
COLLINS: Oh yes.
BEHAR: She was one of the women that he was sleeping with.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Allegedly --
COLLINS: I mean, one of the --
BEHAR: She is now going to have a job on "Extra".
SEKOFF: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean this is what happens nowadays, she has landed a job -- it`s probably an on-air -- I think as on-air personality.
SEKOFF: Yes.
BEHAR: To talk.
COLLINS: Oh she`ll be looking after Mario. I mean, she`ll be his co- host.
SEKOFF: Ok. You know, here`s a thing, though, I`ve got to say. This to me is horrible.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: It`s absolutely -- it just reinforces this notion that your shameful behavior is rewarded. You know, so we get Levi Johnson and we get Paris Hilton and we get Kim Kardashian, we got the other little baby Kardashians, we got K-Fed. It hurts me that I know about these people.
BEHAR: Well, what did the Kardashians do? They didn`t do anything.
SEKOFF: She was in a sex tape.
BEHAR: Oh she was in a sex tape. Yes.
SEKOFF: Oh yes, she was in a sex tape with Ray-J (ph).
BEHAR: Oh I see.
SEKOFF: Now.
BEHAR: All righty then.
SEKOFF: Yes, did you see that one? You didn`t see that?
BEHAR: No I didn`t.
COLLINS: Will.
BEHAR: I didn`t know about that one. I can`t keep up with them.
SEKOFF: It`s hard to, it`s hard to.
BEHAR: And Ashley Dupree who was Spitzer`s hooker.
COLLINS: Oh.
BEHAR: She has a column in "The New York Post" we`ve had her on the show giving advice.
COLLINS: But wasn`t he --
BEHAR: What does it say about me that I have all the hookers on?
COLLINS: Well, you know.
SEKOFF: Wait, wait all the hookers is (INAUDIBLE) --
(CROSSTALK)
SEKOFF: Wait a minute.
COLLINS: I think you`re -- what are we talking about?
SEKOFF: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: We raised the bar.
BEHAR: Well, I have you and the hookers. I love to have the hookers too.
COLLINS: And the hookers too.
BEHAR: Yes, whatever. Anyway.
SEKOFF: I love that green room.
BEHAR: Thank you guys for doing this.
When we come back, I want to know what you thought of Ellen`s debut on "Idol" last night. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. Ellen DeGeneres made her much anticipated debut on "American Idol" last night. And because change is so very hard she`s getting -- she`s getting, you know, razzed by the reviews and some of them are good and some of them are not. Everything from "she was too bland" to "wonderful".
Let`s take a look at her in action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELLEN DEGENERES, JUDGE, "AMERICAN IDOL": Are you afraid of me, you know when you were -- you were stalking us. You were like a leopard behind a cage. You`re looking at -- I was watching you -- you look at us like I`m going to kick you.
RANDY JACKSON, JUDGE, "AMERICAN IDOL": And you look kind of hungry, you look hungry.
DEGENERES: You looked like you`re going to get us. Seriously don`t frighten you`re audience, don`t get, don`t get so intense, you know. Sexy and scary is a fine line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What do you think of that?
COLLINS: I miss Paula, I really do.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: Because I loved Paula on the show.
BEHAR: She was good on the show. They`re going to miss her.
COLLINS: Yes. She kind of adds to it and I love the way she interacted with Simon. Simon and Paula and you know Randy were a team.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: They`ve broken up the team.
BEHAR: Well, Simon left too.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: So he`s leaving next year.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: So they`re going to have to replace him too.
SEKOFF: Yes, I hate to -- I hate to disagree with you but I kind of think that the Paula bar was kind of low. I mean, if you say it was --
COLLINS: It was low for you.
SEKOFF: -- a coherent sentence then you`re doing all right you know.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: And I thought she was actually witty, Ellen, she showed passion. She showed that she cared about the show. I think the real test though, you know, last night was culled down from hours and hours of footage.
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: What`s going to happen when it`s live? That`s the test of a judge.
COLLINS: I think --
SEKOFF: And how do you do it when there`s no safety net.
BEHAR: And what about when Simon leaves who`s going to replace Simon?
COLLINS: Howard Stern?
BEHAR: That`s my -- that`s what I say too. I think he`d be great.
COLLINS: Yes, but will he`ll be to be able to control himself?
BEHAR: Why not, he can control.
COLLINS: Do you think he can control himself?
SEKOFF: But don`t think on this show it`s really about the people. It`s about the people on the other side, the talent. I mean, look, people watch "American Got Talent" and David Hasselhoff is a judge. So you know, the bar is not that --
BEHAR: What are you saying Roy?
COLLINS: What are you saying?
SEKOFF: I`m saying it`s about the people in front of the camera and not necessarily the judges.
BEHAR: I think that`s true.
COLLINS: I am a television junkie and you have to understand television and the reason you watch these shows is for the judges not for their contestants.
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
SEKOFF: Really.
COLLINS: Because imagine if there were no judges there, would you be watching the show. Think about it.
SEKOFF: Don`t you --
COLLINS: Would you be watching the show if there were no judges?
SEKOFF: I kind of like the talent, I mean, I like Carrie Underwood, I like Kelly Clarkson, I mean --
BEHAR: I go along with Jackie.
SEKOFF: Really.
COLLINS: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: It`s like the reason people watched "The View" because they like to us see us arguing.
COLLINS: Exactly.
SEKOFF: Well, that`s true, that`s true.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, Ellen wasn`t the only one to make news last night. There was also the very last episode of "The Jay Leno Show." He`s heading back to the "Tonight Show" after the Olympics.
So what did you both think of Jay last night, or last month?
COLLINS: I think it`s terrific.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: I managed to get back to the hotel to watch it, I thought it was fabulous. I loved his interview with Aston Kutcher (ph) and I just thought he was great.
BEHAR: I like his monologue.
COLLINS: I`m team Jay.
BEHAR: Team Jay?
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, they are all funny, they are all funny. But Jay kind of got a bad rap.
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: Well, I think that`s why this was a brilliant for him to do the thing with Leno. I mean, you know for the first time in his career.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: He was the bad guy in the Conan affair, right? So what he did is he kind of came on and said look, I`m going to help the other guy. The guy I`ve been feuding with for 18 years
COLLINS: Yes.
SEKOFF: And I`m going to show I have a sense of humor about myself.
BEHAR: Well before he left the prime time it looks like Leno and Letterman were able to bury the hatchet by doing that Super Bowl commercial.
SEKOFF: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, check out what Jay said about seeing Dave for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE JAY LENO SHOW": Well and I see Dave and he put his hand and I shake hands and you know whatever happens in the last 18 years disappeared. It was great to see my old friend again. It was wonderful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Very nice, did you believe it?
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Or is it just Hollywood?
COLLINS: No, I believe it, I mean, I think Jay is a genuinely nice guy.
BEHAR: He is.
COLLINS: Yes, I really think.
SEKOFF: He definitely is but it was a good PR move. You know, it was kind of like before you get sentenced you go out and you do a lot of charity work.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: You know, so I think we`re going to see Jay before the Olympics end and you know out in the street and picking up some trash.
COLLINS: I think he`s fine.
BEHAR: But Jay is going to go up against Letterman again.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, and Jay is basically have higher ratings for many years against Letterman. So we`ll see what happens next.
COLLINS: And it`s going to be fun to watch. That`s great television, yes.
BEHAR: It will be fun again. I know. But the acrimony is over now so everybody can relax. Thanks very much guys.
Up next, inmates and the women who love them; you don`t want miss this next discussion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HLN ANCHOR: Well we all remember Scott Peterson, remember him the good looking man in prison for killing his wife. He was locked up for life but women everywhere sent him marriage proposals. Or remember serial killer Ted Bunty, he got married while on trial. Surprisingly more and more people are finding their soul mates behind the barb wire and they are all trying to make their marriages last a life time. Even if their partner is serving a life sentence. They took until death row do us part very seriously. With me now to discuss this phenomenon is Tim McDonald whose wife is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole for felony murder. Gail Sullivan whose husband is serving three life sentences in a maximum security prison. Plus Jeanine Parel host of the Judge Jeanine Parel show who isn`t married to anybody locked up as far as we know.
JEANINE PAREL, HOST JUDGE JEANINE PAREL SHOW: No I`m not.
BEHAR: Oh okay. Now Gail let me start with you, now you married a hit man who is supposedly killed up to 30 people, now what was the attraction.
GAIL SULLIVAN: Well he wasn`t a hitman and didn`t kill 30 people when I married him.
BEHAR: Okay.
SULLIVAN: The attraction to him was that he was a nice guy. That he had done time and I knew people that had done time.
BEHAR: When you met him.
SULLIVAN: When I met him. And I know him about 40 something years and he wasn`t a hit man at the time.
BEHAR: But okay. So you married him knowing that he had some kind of an issue though?
SULLIVAN: I married him knowing that he had done time, yes.
BEHAR: Yes. But -
SULLIVAN: But I also was raised around people that had done time. My father owned an ambulance service and he only hired ex-cons because in the 50`s they couldn`t come out if they didn`t have a job. And I never had anything really to hurt me. So it didn`t matter.
BEHAR: So that are the guys you are meeting?
SULLIVAN: Yes.
BEHAR: I see. Now is it hard to love someone though who has maybe killed up to 30 people. You still married to this man.
SULLIVAN: I`m still married to him.
BEHAR: Yes.
SULLIVAN: I`m married 33 years.
BEHAR: Yes.
SULLIVAN: Is it hard? I separated, I separated. Everybody I feel has more than one personality. I don`t look at that personality. I wasn`t impressed with him. It didn`t bother me that he killed all those people - it didn`t affect me. Except that he is in jail now and to me, he`s a nice man. And you can call him what you want - anybody can label anybody and they can call them whatever they want.
BEHAR: Well it`s not a label. It`s not like saying you know, he`s annoying.
SULLIVAN: But people can say he`s a sociopath, couldn`t they? They could say that he`s crazy.
BEHAR: They could call him sociopath -
SULLIVAN: They could say that, they could say anything I`m just saying that people put labels on a lot of people. I don`t do that. He is the man that I married. He`s the father of my children. He`s the grandfather to our grandchildren.
BEHAR: Uh huh. Let`s talk to Tim. What - your wife is also locked up.
TIM MCDONALD, MARRIED PERSON IN PRISON: That`s correct.
BEHAR: What did is she there for?
MCDONALD: She`s there for felony, murder.
BEHAR: Who did she kill?
MCDONALD: She didn`t kill anybody. She was there when someone was killed.
BEHAR: Oh I see. So tell the story, what happen.
MCDONALD: When?
BEHAR: When she was locked up for - what happen?
MCDONALD: She was present when a - when one of her abusers killed someone else and she got the same sentence as he got.
BEHAR: Really.
MCDONALD: Yes.
BEHAR: Okay, you want to jump in here Jeanine, go ahead.
PAREL: No felony, murder basically means that she didn`t have to be the one who actually killed the person.
BEHAR: Yes, I see, I didn`t know that.
PAREL: Yes and so what it means is that she was convicted because she apparently was involved in the underlying crime. Maybe it was robbery, I don`t know. And I`m not suggesting that she is guilty or not guilty. I don`t know anything about the facts. Well that`s felony murder. There is no intent to kill, she didn`t do the shooting, was it a shooting?
MCDONALD: That`s right.
BEHAR: How did you meet her?
MCDONALD: I was doing research into the prison culture. And -
PAREL: In how many state?
MCDONALD: Six states.
BEHAR: Where were you living at that time?
MCDONALD: I was living in the State of Washington.
BEHAR: Washington okay. But your wife who is not in a prison, where, in - Tennessee right?
MCDONALD: In Tennessee, yes.
BEHAR: So how did you exactly get connected up with her?
MCDONALD: I was - I went online and I also answered newspaper ad person expert, going to prisons, visiting prisons. I actually went - I got names of prisoners, I`d write them.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MCDONALD: I`d get letters from them. And I`d say send me your visitation forms. So I was learning a prison culture because I`d employed prisoners in construction.
BEHAR: And then what happen with her? How did that get started with her.
MCDONALD: You know she was in the sixth state that I went to. And actually what happen, she wouldn`t send me visitation forms. Her hand writing caught my attention. And I was intrigued by her hand writing. She would not send me her visitation form so we wound up writing for six to eight months.
BEHAR: Oh so it was one of those affairs where you are talking to each other through email and letters.
MCDONALD: No, no, they cannot, they cannot, they have no access to email.
BEHAR: Oh okay.
MCDONALD: No, no it was through letters only.
BEHAR: Now you were married at the time?
MCDONALD: I was married.
BEHAR: Okay. And so how does -
MCDONALD: Mary and I first met her and you know.
BEHAR: So then what happen - so then you left your wife and moved to Tennessee to be near her? How did it go?
MCDONALD: Well, no quite. I had a marriage that was over. And then you know, poor circumstance but I did not - no I didn`t leave, I didn`t leave a wife I was having conjungal with someone I did not.
BEHAR: I see. So the marriage was over so then this came up and you decided to move to Tennessee to be near this woman, in jail?
MCDONALD: I moved to Tennessee, yes to cut down on the commute to visit her. But also I moved to the community where her children were -
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MCDONALD: So I could become more involved in her children`s life.
BEHAR: I see. Her name is Dian. Correct?
MCDONALD: Correct.
BEHAR: Okay let`s listen Dian to talk about it, we have something.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIAN: He said that I was not the reason for his divorce. However, I do feel responsible. And of course I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BEHAR: She appears to be a little bit guilt.
MCDONALD: She feels guilty about everything. If I drop a can of Coke, she feels guilty.
BEHAR: Uh huh, I see. Jeanine what is the appeal to you in your mind with people who are interested in people who are in jail.
PAREL: Well first of all, I think that Gail`s situation is different. She fell in love with this guy before he started killing people. I still don`t get why you didn`t change your mind even a little when he started killing people. But women -
BEHAR: She`s not judgmental.
PAREL: Right, right, right. And
(LAUGHTER)
PAREL: But women think they can change. And we talked about Scott Peterson in the beginning.
BEHAR: Yes.
PAREL: They think they can change the guy. And a lot of women, and Tim is very unusual. It`s usually the women who marry the guys in prison. Not the guys who marry the women in prison. And by the way before I`ve sent people to State`s prison. As a judge, I would often marry them. And you know just kind of wonder why they are getting married before they are going into State`s prison.
BEHAR: Yes.
PAREL: But a lot of women think that, you know, they get attention. They get letters. The guy can`t be unfaithful if he`s behind bars.
BEHAR: That`s true. That`s true
PAREL: I mean that`s a plus.
BEHAR: Do you like that part of it Gail?
SULLIVAN: Well I think -
BEHAR: That he`s in prison and he can`t be cheating on you.
SULLIVAN: That`s true. When I also think that when it fulfills both needs. It fulfills the need that I may have that you know - he`s giving me attention. It`s one on one you know. And he needs somebody to need him.
BEHAR: You need him. And did you ever have any kind of an extramarital affair while he was in prison.
SULLIVAN: No.
BEHAR: He`s been away for quite awhile.
SULLIVAN: Right. I didn`t.
BEHAR: No I never did.
(CROSSTALK)
SULLIVAN: It took us six years to get them - but we get conjugal visits.
PAREL: You get conjugal visits.
SULLIVAN: Yes we do.
BEHAR: Uh huh, do you.
MCDONALD: No.
BEHAR: You don`t.
MCDONALD: No.
BEHAR: So have you ever had any kind of relations with this woman?
MCDONALD: No, I have not.
BEHAR: You haven`t.
MCDONALD: No.
BEHAR: Oh so this is - I get it. So you are still married to her and you love each other. But there hasn`t been any sex. Let`s tell it like it is.
MCDONALD: Yes that is exactly what it is. We are married.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MCDONALD: We love each other. There hasn`t been any sex and that gets easier to take the older I get.
BEHAR: It takes - it`s easier to take the older you get.
MCDONALD: Yes, I`m 65 now, that`s a whole lot easier when say I was 35.
BEHAR: Yes, I see. Well they have a medication these days.
MCDONALD: You have to tell me about that a little later.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What do you think of that? I mean it`s more like a friendship than a marriage to me.
PAREL: Well it is and a lot of marriages end up being friendships. But I think what`s interesting is Gail has conjugal rights. It`s not every prison - not every State has conjugal rights. It`s the state prisons and bail - I don`t know six states and a lot of them. You are not entitled to it even if you are in a state prison in a state that allows it. You have to earn it. You have to have - you know it`s a privilege. You know it is something that a lot of people are against.
SULLIVAN: Yes that`s important because it is a privilege. And people that fight for them they think it is your right. I`ve learned it`s not a right. It took me six years to get them, it`s a privilege to get them. And people should respect that.
BEHAR: Yes.
SULLIVAN: You know they should do all those and they should do what they have to do, after all, they are getting something that 50 other states may not be getting.
BEHAR: Tell the truth Gail, do you kind of like it that he is away.
SULLIVAN: Well I don`t have to do his dirty laundry. I don`t have to clean up after him, you know.
BEHAR: Seriously does it - hit you in any kind of way?
SULLIVAN: But I`m always - I don`t know if it appeals to me. But I`ve always been a independent. And I`ve always done things on my own. I`ve always - that`s the way I was raised. And it didn`t affect my marriage. Even when I was married I was like that.
BEHAR: He`s under control in a certain way. I mean he is a hit man.
SULLIVAN: Right. Right.
BEHAR: He did kill all these people -
SULLIVAN: Right.
BEHAR: So this way you`ll know he`s not killing anybody.
SULLIVAN: Right, that`s true.
BEHAR: And you know where he is.
PAREL: So it`s safer. SULLIVAN: Yes, you look and you don`t have to worry in the middle of the night and say, gee, he didn`t call me. Where is he. I know exactly where he is.
BEHAR: Yes but what about the children involved. I don`t - what is the story with children, do you have - grown children, right?
SULLIVAN: We have two grown children. One was, has a purple heart, he was in Iraq. We have a son who is a teacher. His wife is a teacher. We have three grandchildren. And we visit all the time. They visit him. I visit him. The grandchildren visit him.
BEHAR: I see.
SULLIVAN: And the conjugal visits - it`s perfect.
BEHAR: Yes so they go with you.
SULLIVAN: Yes and it really helps -
BEHAR: So it`s a family affair.
SULLIVAN: The conjugal visits, and I`m sure you can attest to that. I don`t know if you can, but it really helps the family having conjugal visits.
PAREL: Yes, there is no question. I mean statistically they say that it gives stability to the inmate and also -
SULLIVAN: Yes, right.
PAREL: And the recidivism rate is lower. Not that he`s got the opportunity.
SULLIVAN: No but -
PAREL: The recidivism rate is lower when they come out because they`re a little more, you know, more connected with the outside world.
SULLIVAN: They`re attached.
BEHAR: But he`s not getting out.
SULLIVAN: No.
PAREL: He`s not getting out.
SULLIVAN: But the point is - it doesn`t matter, the thing is conjugal visits helped when the kids were there.
BEHAR: Yes.
SULLIVAN: It was like don`t do what I did.
BEHAR: Yes.
SULLIVAN: Learn from my mistakes.
BEHAR: Well your kids have taken the straight and narrow and take it.
SULLIVAN: Right, right. Yes. I mean they`re -
BEHAR: And your husband approves of that, I`m sure.
SULLIVAN: Oh he`s taught them.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well he doesn`t want them to do what he did. Uh huh.
SULLIVAN: Right and it was a good -
BEHAR: Uh huh, because you end up in jail for one thing.
SULLIVAN: But to have that talk, that time, yes we had quality time. Maybe not quantity, I could have married a drunk and never got to divorced and they would have been battered or they would have been battered. You know this is quality time we spend with him.
BEHAR: Yes, you are like my mother in a way. Because she use to say they always have to have something wrong with them. But not all men have to have something wrong with them.
SULLIVAN: Well I think -
BEHAR: Some men are not like that - they`re not flawed -
SULLIVAN: Some women might have something wrong with them too.
BEHAR: I know that, I know that - I`m curious though about a lot of things. So sit tight because we are just getting started. We`ll be back in a minute with more of this interesting conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking to Judge Jeanine Parel and two people who married prisoners serving life sentences. Joining me with this discussion is another woman who made the same choice, Latoya Mariane. Her husband is serving a life sentence for grand theft auto and armed robbery. Okay welcome Latoya. You met your husband when he was in prison, are you surprised that you fell for someone in that situation.
LATOYA MARIANE: Oh definitely. I mean that`s not your dream as a little girl to marry a man that is in prison.
BEHAR: Right.
MARIANE: Especially not your parents.
BEHAR: Uh huh. So what was it about him.
MARIANE: His letters.
BEHAR: What?
MARIANE: I wrote him. I met him through his cousin and it was his letters.
PAREL: The letters.
MARIANE: And the wisdom that was in the letters. Most men they don`t even sit down to talk. You barely get three words out of a man. So when this man could sit down and articulate and he had beautiful hand writing, I - why not try. Why not see what it`s about.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. That is so interesting Latoya because someone else on this panel also referred to the person`s handwriting. What is it about the handwriting that is so interesting, Tim, I`m curious well if he - Latoya will tell me too. Wait one second.
MCDONALD: Look, the handwriting is the person.
BEHAR: The handwriting is the person.
MCDONALD: The handwriting is the only thing you cannot fake.
BEHAR: I see and Latoya what is the attraction to the handwriting.
MARIANE: Well the handwriting was - it was the art. He took time with it and he, it was almost like -
BEHAR: Well he has nothing but time, let`s face it, Latoya.
MARIANE: Yes he had nothing but time.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARIANE: If you look at my handwriting and then you look at his handwriting, you`ll see that I have no time for you period.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MARIANE: I`m writing up slant, I have high confidence. That`s good stuff but it is just the point of it is. When you sit back and listen to the words of the person.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MARIANE: And probably, yes, he had nothing but time, that`s the same thing my mom said.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MARIANE: But it`s a difference between you have a plan and then you just write something.
BEHAR: Well you know, you are almost certain that your husband will be released in a couple of months, right?
MARIANE: Yes.
BEHAR: How is your life going to change, you know, now you are going to have to be with the guy, not this long distance thing where you can admire him from afar.
MARIANE: Well I mean 14 years. I mean you ain`t admire from afar. You are getting to know them one way or the other. We had issues. It is almost like a soap opera inside the prison. You have to overcome anger issues, you have to overcome relationship issues. You - I mean it is almost the same thing but only thing is he`s not paying bills and I`m not having sex with him.
BEHAR: You haven`t had any sex with him because there are -
MARIANE: Not in 14 years.
BEHAR: No conjugal visits in Florida -
MARIANE: Well our relationship -
BEHAR: Well that could be an issue when you actually are in the same bed with the guy.
MARIANE: It could be. It could be. But I have no fear that it would be. I mean maybe I have forgotten some things I haven`t had sex for 14 years. A lot of people feel the pain for me, but -
BEHAR: Okay Latoya let`s listen to your husband, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LATOYA MARIANE`S HUSBAND: It is because of her that I`m in this space now. Because she really put her - she put everything on hold to this. And you can understand, I can respect her for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Does it worry you that he`ll get out and leave you, Latoya?
MARIANE: You know, a lot of people ask me that question. What you going to do if he leaves you? Well he`s leaving the best thing he ever had. I`m - you know, I`m a little extra plumb than what I was when he first met me. But why would leave somebody who would fight for you. But I don`t fear that. If he leaves me that`s his problem.
BEHAR: Okay, good.
MARIANE: I learned a lot of things out of this situation. I`m proud about myself. You know, I found out who I was.
BEHAR: Good for you. You are a secure woman. You know I don`t understand the - what the good thing for you is. I can see the person in jail. They are getting all the goodies. They don`t have to pay the mortgage. They don`t have to clean the house. They don`t have to bring in the money. You know, so they`re getting three meals a day, etcetera. What is the advantage for the people outside who are carrying the burden of the money, of the kids -
MCDONALD: Well what is the advantage to loving anyone?
BEHAR: Well I mean that`s true but this is a more practical question I guess.
MCDONALD: I guess practical - but you hear me once again, we have been married - we all have marriages founded on love.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MCDONALD: When you love someone -
BEHAR: You do for them
MCDONALD: There are other, you know, and love and affection - there`s more to a marriage than the daily check book.
BEHAR: Oh I know that. I know that but I think that - it seems to me they get the better end of the deal.
MARIANE: It looks like they get the better end of the deal. But you have to remember, marriage is a sacrifice. If you are not ready to selfless, you are not ready to be married.
BEHAR: That`s why I`m not married, Latoya.
MARIANE: So -
(LAUGHTER)
MARIANE: Because you are selfish still.
BEHAR: Go ahead Gail.
SULLIVAN: But I really think that - I know that I get support. Like if I wanted to change jobs, I want to do things. If I`m questionable about what I should do, how I should raise the kids. Where I should go on vacation. When I should do - or you know, just how - like the book I wrote. Just things that came up, he`s my support system. I can`t go to my kids, they are younger than me. He`s my support system. And he may have done whatever he did and he did. And he admits what he did. But it doesn`t mean that he`s a stupid man.
BEHAR: No you are telling me before that he escaped from Attica.
SULLIVAN: It just means that - right.
BEHAR: I`d like to hear how that went down.
PAREL: And to still get conjugal visits. That`s the amazing thing, the guy is an escaperist and they still get him visits. So he -
BEHAR: He`s 71 now, how old was he when he escaped Attica.
SULLIVAN: In his 30`s. In the book -
BEHAR: When he was 30 or in his 30`s.
SULLIVAN: He was in his 30`s.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
SULLIVAN: In the book that I wrote, "Tears and Tears". It talks about how he escaped. It also talks about how he did it. And how he was successful. And it took them two weeks to find him, and to even tell the New York Times that he escaped. It was an ingenious thing. So when I need somebody to bounce something off, I feel like he is intelligent enough to bounce things of off.
BEHAR: Yes, just because he`s a murderer doesn`t mean he`s stupid.
SULLIVAN: Doesn`t mean - yes, he`s stupid, right. Exactly.
BEHAR: Yes, I understand that.
SULLIVAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Do you ever think - I have questions from viewers that I`m interested to ask you. How do the wives know their respective husbands are faithful behind bars? How do you -- call your wives or call your husbands. Go ahead, Latoya.
MARIANE: They`ll tell you. They`ll tell you. The correction officers will tell you, the inmates will come up and tell you. I`ve had inmates write letters to tell you secret things that they`re doing back there. Oh believe me, they`re being watched. And if you`re a likeable person, they will let you know.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MARIANE: So you don`t have to worry about that.
BEHAR: Are you concerned Tim at all that your wife might be having a lesbian affair?
MCDONALD: I`m more concerned she`s raped.
BEHAR: By another woman?
MCDONALD: No, by guards or anybody in custodial care.
BEHAR: By guards.
MCDONALD: I mean this has happen, I`ve seen them rap about seven times (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BEHAR: Oh my god. Really?
MCDONALD: Oh yes.
BEHAR: That`s terrible.
PAREL: You know the problem in that situation. And I prosecuted a case like that. Is that the women inmates rely on the corrections officers for food. They rely on them for the fundamental, you know stuff, you know that they need -
MCDONALD: Doesn`t matter.
(CROSSTALK)
PAREL: And so I had an inmate who actually would do oral sex and the she`d spit it out and save it and brought it to me and we prosecuted the correction officer.
BEHAR: Oh my God - these stories.
(CROSSTALK)
PAREL: Yes.
BEHAR: Someone wants to know did they ever try to pass things to them. You know like through - send jars of coffee, do they slip anything in the jar? You know the chisel in cake inside the thing.
SULLIVAN: Well, the point is, they could stop your visits if you do that. So, if you are doing that-and that`s a risk-I wouldn`t want to do that because I want those visits. My husband could get 35 pounds a month. If I did that and the found-and they go through metal detectors, they are very cautious and they need to be. You know, they are in a prison. I get it. And so we need to really just be on top of our game so that we can visit our husbands or our wives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Florida-
MCDONALD: We are people that want to see our spouses and we know what their sentence is and we`re not going to engage in that type of behavior. Now if she was getting out in a year, you would say, so what. It`s a lighter sentence, but no.
BEHAR: OK, stay right there. I want to hear Latoya`s husband when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with discussing the phenomenon of marrying someone who is in prison.
Latoya, let me ask you a question. What will you do when Cornelius, that`s your husband`s name, right?
MARION: Yeah.
BEHAR: When he gets out? Do you want to have children with him?
MARION: Yeah. Of course. My first goal is to lose weight, then start having all the kids because it was a lot of stressful, emotional stress just going through fighting this case, bringing these cases before the people, asking the judge to grant the motions.
BEHAR: You know, people ask me interesting questions on the Twitter. This is something I`ve again thinking of also. If it`s a crime, which this would be your husband, I think who has killed people. If it`s a crime which hurt or killed someone, do you feel guilty or ashamed that you`re married to this person who did it? I don`t get -- I sense that you`re calm about it, that you don`t feel any guilt about it yourself.
SULLIVAN: He did that crime. I didn`t do the crime. I`m my own person. I want people to see me for who I am not for who my husband is. That choice was my choice. I can understand, I feel sorry for those families but that was a mob. All that was mob related. When you`re in the mob, one of the things you can do is you can get killed.
BEHAR: So he didn`t kill wives and children?
SULLIVAN: No.
BEHAR: He just killed other men?
SULLIVAN: Right.
BEHAR: Who were also in the mob?
SULLIVAN: Right.
BEHAR: So it`s very "Godfather"-like, this whole story, isn`t it?
SULLIVAN: Yes, it was very "Godfather"-like. Yes.
PIRRO: So they were hits for hire?
SULLIVAN: They were hits for hire.
BEHAR: He was a hit man.
SULLIVAN: Except we never really made any money on it, but he was a hit man.
BEHAR: Why didn`t you make any money on it?
SULLIVAN: He didn`t make any money on it because he thought that the mob -
BEHAR: He was a bad hit man?
SULLIVAN: No, he was a good hit man, actually.
PIRRO: Don`t go there.
BEHAR: It wasn`t lucrative.
SULLIVAN: Right, but he thought the mob would take care of him but they didn`t take care of him. And that was really -- that would have been more of the fighting if anything that they never took care of him.
BEHAR: You can`t trust these people.
SULLIVAN: You can`t trust them.
BEHAR: They are murderers.
SULLIVAN: And also, because he was in jail his whole life and he was in jail with the mob. And you know, all those mobsters that went to jail and they promised him the world when he got out. It wasn`t what they thought, or what he thought.
PIRRO: You know what the interesting thing is, you know, Latoya, and I`ve seen this in my courtroom on my show, a lot of women who stay with men who were in prison and then come out, the divorce rate is extremely high, it`s something like 80 percent.
MARION: Yes, it is.
BEHAR: When they come out.
PIRRO: Yes, when they come out, because they find that this is real life. It`s not the way it was in prison. And I mean, Latoya, you are going to have to work very hard based upon the statistics to fight those statistics.
MARION: Yes, I know.
BEHAR: Well, it`s a huge adjustment because a lot of it is in fantasy land, it seems to me.
PIRRO: Exactly.
MARION: It is.
BEHAR: You`re talking about letters and you`re talking about romance and imagery now you have the person in your house. How do you feel about that, Tim? Are you going to be able to adjust if she gets out?
MCDONALD: Well, it is going to be different, that`s for sure. I just don`t know if she can paddle a canoe. I mean that`s all I`ve done, I took up canoeing as she was in prison.
BEHAR: You mean literally.
PIRRO: We went to the other place.
BEHAR: I went somewhere with that that I was really wondering.
MCDONALD: Well, you know, not all women will paddle a canoe.
BEHAR: I was wondering, because two minutes ago you were talking about Viagra being a possibility in your future, and now paddling a canoe. I made the connection. But that`s just me, I`m just wacky that way.
MCDONALD: Are you that way? Let`s not go there.
BEHAR: What about you? Are you looking forward to him coming out or not?
MARION: Yes, I`m very, I mean, it`s going to be extremely exciting.
BEHAR: I mean, do you feel that what I just said is true? That there`s a fantasy level that you`ve been dealing with in the letter writing and the handwriting fantasies and all of that?
MARION: Of course. I mean, you`re going to pretend. You`re going to make up what you will do, what you would do, how it`s going to be done. But in the reality, it`s just all about finding out, hey, it`s a really life situation. You`ve just got to have faith and keep moving on. Keep thanking God.
BEHAR: OK, very strong people, I think. That`s one thing I have to say, you`re all very strong people. So good luck to all of you. Thanks for joining me tonight.
"Prison Wives" premieres Sunday night at 8:00 on "Investigation Discovery." Good night, everybody.
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