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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Jackie Collins
Aired February 12, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Coming up on The Joy Behar Show, was Rielle Hunter two-timing John Edwards with actor Jeff Goldblum? That`s appropriate. One man who played "The Fly" and one who can`t keep his fly closed -- whatever.
Then, she`s bawdy, shocking, absolutely scandalous in polite company and wears lots great jewelry. My God, is best-selling author Jackie Collins a gay man? I`ll find out.
And prison inmates and the men and women who love them. Personally I never have been in love with a prisoner unless you want to count Burt Lancaster in "Birdman of Alcatraz". That was it.
That and more, right now.
Well, you know, this has been an incredible week for guys who should know better but obviously don`t. We`re going to start with the latest in the John Edwards debacle.
Here to dish with me are comedian Kevin Meaney; Page 6 editor for "The New York Post" Richard Johnson; and comedian extraordinaire and beauty Kathleen Madigan. See, I said it.
KATHLEEN MADIGAN, COMEDIAN: That was really lovely. I`m seated next to the most handsome person in the world.
RICHARD JOHNSON, PAGE 6 EDITOR, "NEW YORK POST": Thank you very much.
MADIGAN: How can`t Kevin and I be adorable with this in the middle?
BEHAR: Now Elizabeth Edwards is threatening to sue Andrew Young for breaking up her marriage, ok? Why him? Why not Rielle Hunter who actually did break up the marriage? It`s like George Bush going into the wrong country, you know what I mean?
KEVIN MEANEY, COMEDIAN: First of all, if I was going to have cancer, I would want to have Elizabeth`s cancer.
BEHAR: Why?
MEANEY: Because she`s still alive. She`s had this cancer for how long?
MADIGAN: And had the energy --
BEHAR: People do live with cancer.
MEANEY: Not like this. You know, hair flowing and she`s in the breeze. I mean, she`s doing --
MADIGAN: This is a lot of energy for somebody who is dying. She`s getting up every morning, filing lawsuits, writing books.
MEANEY: Yes. Writing books.
BEHAR: God bless her. Bless her heart. I say more power to her.
MEANEY: I`m with you. I`m totally with you.
MADIGAN: Yes. I would sue that guy. I like that you can sue third people. I never heard of that.
BEHAR: That`s only in South Carolina or North Carolina.
MEANEY: My wife was actually going to sue Broadway.
BEHAR: For turning you gay?
MEANEY: For turning me gay.
BEHAR: That makes sense.
MEANEY: I am what I am
BEHAR: Now, Richard, let me ask you --
MADIGAN: Were you going to sing your defense?
BEHAR: Let`s let Richard talk. Alienation of affection is typically a lawsuit that you can use in these situations.
JOHNSON: Right.
BEHAR: Is she angry that Young embarrassed her family? Is that why she`s going to do it or does she know something about Young that we don`t know?
JOHNSON: Oh, I think that she -- I don`t think it`s going to happen, this lawsuit because they have no chance of winning. This guy was actually trying to help them. He was the guy that said, "No, it`s my baby, it`s not Edwards` baby." And he was the one who was like putting up Rielle Hunter and giving her a place to live when she was hiding from the press.
BEHAR: But what is she driving at wanting to sue this guy?
JOHNSON: I don`t know. It`s like -- why wait till the book is out? It`s like closing the barn door after all the stuff is out already. Everybody knows that he`s the father, so why sue now? They should have sued two years ago.
BEHAR: Now Young -- Andrew Young, who said --
MEANEY: He`s not the mayor, is he?
BEHAR: No not that -- not that Andrew Young.
JOHNSON: No. Same name, different job.
BEHAR: This is a different one. This Andrew Young says that he`s scared of something.
MEANEY: Oh yes. He`s scared of that John Edwards. I mean that John Edwards has a lot of money.
MADIGAN: A lot of cash.
MEANEY: Ok. And they`re down south, ok? A lot of crazy things happen down south. I just want to say something to you, Andrew, something crazy could happen to you.
(CROSSTALK)
MADIGAN: How do you even buy into it. I mean, John Edwards, maybe he should have been the president. To be that persuasive, to say to an employee, "Look, I`m in a pickle."
BEHAR: That`s a good point.
MADIGAN: "My dying wife who has cancer doesn`t know my girlfriend is having a baby. And you got to hide her and the baby and then tell your wife it`s totally fine." And then the guy goes, "Sure, dude, no problem. We got an extra room."
This man really went --
BEHAR: What about the sex tape?
MEANEY: Oh, I would love to see that.
BEHAR: I know.
JOHNSON: I want to see it like I watch "Nip/Tuck" like this.
BEHAR: I`m scared of "Nip/Tuck" also.
MEANEY: As much as I`ve been crazy in my life, I`ve never made a sex tape.
BEHAR: Oh, really? I have a copy of one.
MADIGAN: I thought you were going to say you had one.
MEANEY: No, I don`t have one.
MADIGAN: You and Lizz Winstead.
BEHAR: I would have made a copy of my tape myself before I had that - - wouldn`t you have done that?
MADIGAN: You`d make a copy for yourself if you were Andrew Young.
BEHAR: he had to turn it over to the authorities.
MEANEY: And they had to go to the safe deposit box to get it. You don`t think he made a copy of that before he went to the safe deposit box? Absolutely he did. And they`re playing that every night.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: "The National Enquirer" says John Edwards proposed Rielle Hunter. He denies it but I seem to recall another denial. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN EDWARDS, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s not possible that this child could be mine because of the timing of events. So I know it`s not possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Thank god for DNA is all I have to say or these people would be lying constantly.
JOHNSON: That`s right.
MADIGAN: If he would just stop the lying. I think Jesse Jackson didn`t he have like a crazy baby and he just came on one day and went, "I had a baby, it`s with somebody, it doesn`t matter." And no one even remembers. I`m not even sure I`m right.
BEHAR: And it went away.
MADIGAN: It went away.
BEHAR: Wait a second --
MEANEY: The baby does not go away.
MADIGAN: The baby is still here.
BEHAR: There`s also a rumor that she was also sleeping with Jeff Goldblum.
JOHNSON: "The Fly".
BEHAR: Rielle Hunter -- "The Fly"
JOHNSON: And that he thought that he was the father.
BEHAR: That`s right. That baby would have big eyes and wings. Ok, guys, stick tight.
Back in 60 seconds with the latest on John Mayer`s Playboy meltdown.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: John Mayer is a singer who knows how to generate press but he doesn`t seem to care if it`s good press. He`s now in trouble for using the "N" word in a Playboy interview.
Here`s what he said.
"I come on very strong. That`s why black people love me. Someone asked me the other day, "What does it feel like to have a hood pass?
By the way, it`s sort of a contradiction in terms because if you really had a hood pass, you could call it an "N" pass." He used the "N" word, the real "N" word which I will not use.
He`s since tweeted an apology. Is he a racist or just an idiot?
MEANEY: I have an easy pass.
BEHAR: It`s not like an easy pass.
MEANEY: It`s not like an easy pass?
BEHAR: No.
MEANEY: Ok.
MADIGAN: I have more of a problem when he keeps saying that`s why black people love me. I have black friends. They don`t have any John Mayer CDs. Can we get a black person to call this show?
BEHAR: We had African-Americans weighing in on it and now three Caucasians weighing in on it.
JOHNSON: But a hood pass means that you can walk through the hood and you don`t get beaten up?
BEHAR: No, it means --
MEANEY: How dare you say that?
JOHNSON: That`s what I was saying --
(CROSSTALK) MEANEY: Are you saying every white person that walks through the hood without a pass gets beaten up? I was in the hood this morning.
BEHAR: A hood pass means that the black community likes you enough to give you a pass on stupid things that you say. But they`re not really giving him a pass.
Ok. He`s apologized on Twitter --
JOHNSON: Thank God.
BEHAR: And at a concert this week he said that he was trying to be clever in the interview. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MAYER, SINGER: It`s just not worth being clever. It`s just not worth being clever. I just quit. I quit the sound bite game.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. He has a black following, the guy. Do you think he`s going to continue to have one after this?
MEANEY: Oh, yes.
MADIGAN: Well, he needs a publicist.
JOHNSON: Yes.
BEHAR: He needs a publicist.
MADIGAN: Somebody needs to step in and go, "You need to shut up now." Like enough -- you can`t just keep -- that was almost as bad as the -- he`s going to quit the media? The media didn`t make you say the "N" word.
JOHNSON: I would like to defend him because I like the way he constantly puts his foot in his mouth and says stupid things because it gives me something to write about.
BEHAR: That`s right. Which you need on a daily basis.
JOHNSON: I have a lot of space to fill.
BEHAR: Listen to what else happened. These quotes are unbelievable. Playboy asked him, do black women throw themselves at you?
And he said, "I don`t think I open myself to it," said Mayer. "My (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is sort of like a white supremacist. I`ve got a Benetton heart and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) David Duke (EXPLETIVE DELETED)."
MADIGAN: This show gets better every week. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) David Duke (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MEANEY: I remember my grandfather would say that all the time. He had a David Duke (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MADIGAN: You can just say that tonight and in the other studios.
MEANEY: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) David Duke, come on out here.
BEHAR: It`s really so condescending and a stupid remark to me that he has to make his sexuality about black people. That`s what I think is annoying me, anyway. It has nothing to do with African-Americans. It has to do with your stupidity.
MADIGAN: Well, and he`s also just saying, you know, I`m not going to have sex with a black woman, pretty much.
BEHAR: Yes, I know. But they don`t care. They don`t want to have sex with him anyway.
MEANEY: Has he been in the steam room with David Duke?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
MEANEY: Been over in the Friar`s Club (ph).
BEHAR: All right, in the interview he also says that this is more of a white person question now, so maybe you`re a little better on this one.
MEANEY: Ok.
MADIGAN: Let`s come on.
(CROSSTALK)
MADIGAN: I`m trying to get one right tonight. It`s a white panel.
BEHAR: He also said sex with Jessica Simpson was like sex with napalm. Is that TMI, or do you know what it means?
MEANEY: Sexual napalm, that when I was in Nam --
JOHNSON: I think that means that she`s got the fire crotch.
BEHAR: Ok what do you think?
MADIGAN: And why do people keep sleeping with him? He`s like a 14-year-old girl every day he said, next day he had sex with you and he puts it all online.
BEHAR: I know.
MADIGAN: I don`t understand why women -- any woman would line up to get in bed with this guy unless you really -- I don`t even understand what that means.
BEHAR: Because he`s a big star, that`s why. He`s a big star. He makes a lot of money.
MEANEY: Yes.
BEHAR: He makes a lot of money.
MEANEY: And he`s cute.
BEHAR: Woman like that and he`s very cute.
JOHNSON: Yes.
BEHAR: Are you attracted to him?
MEANEY: I think he`s cute.
BEHAR: Very, ok. Are you attracted to him?
MEANEY: I have a relationship you know.
JOHNSON: He`s had a big list of conquests.
BEHAR: Yes he has.
JOHNSON: Cameron Diaz --
BEHAR: Cameron Diaz.
JOHNSON: Megan Kelly (ph).
BEHAR: He also talks a lot about --
MEANEY: Jessica Simpson --
BEHAR: -- masturbating in his "Rolling Stone" interview. How long do you --
MEANEY: I wonder if he gets on top.
BEHAR: Of himself, of himself.
MEANEY: Yes -
BEHAR: Yes.
MEANEY: -- when he masturbates, does he get on top.
BEHAR: How long before this guy checks into rehab with Tiger Woods?
MADIGAN: Did he know he was like saying these things out loud? Like someone was going to print this? Like halfway through --
BEHAR: He says and he writes it Kathleen, he does both.
Ok, thank you so much, both of you. All three of you, I mean. Thanks, everyone.
Singer Katharine McPhee joins me next. So stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMON COWELL, AMERICAN IDOL: Katharine, how old are you?
KATHARINE MCPHEE, SINGER: I`m 21.
COWELL: You`re excited, aren`t you?
MCPHEE: I`m very excited.
(MCPHEE SINGING)
COWELL: Ok, ok. That was absolutely fantastic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Wow, was that Simon Cowell being nice to someone? Must have been April Fool`s Day, because he doesn`t, he don`t play that.
My next guest gained fame as the runner-up on the fifth season of "American Idol" and within a year her debut album reached number two on the Billboard 200. And she achieved all of this despite suffering from a serious eating disorder. Her new CD is "Unbroken" and she`s here with me now. Katharine McPhee, welcome to the show my dear.
MCPHEE: Hi, thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Yes, that was interesting to see him and to see you with black hair.
MCPHEE: I know -- my old hair.
BEHAR: I almost didn`t recognize you. But you have the pipes. You really could sing.
MCPHEE: Oh, thank you. That was a very special moment. That`s -- I feel weird and my stomach just dropped whenever I see that but it was --
BEHAR: Why, it feels like when --
MCPHEE: It was just so long ago for me. It was almost five years. Because you know, by the time people actually see is, it was a year or whatever. It`s just -- it was a long time ago and I feel like I`m such a different person from that girl, you know, who was just young. I mean, I`m still such a young person --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: --but I just feel like I`ve grown a lot. I mean, how can you not grow?
BEHAR: I think in show business, you grow fast.
MCPHEE: Yes, you grow fast.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: And --
BEHAR: Was he always nice to you?
MCPHEE: Simon, I mean, you know, we started off on a pretty good note together. And he`s -- from what I know, he`s been pretty kind to me and I`ve always liked him. And I always say that Simon is a much nicer person than he is on the "Idol" chair you know, how he plays that character. But --
BEHAR: Yes, but so what? Because I mean, there`s only -- if he`s not nice on television, that`s where we see him.
MCPHEE: Exactly.
BEHAR: Who cares what he`s like in his kitchen.
MCPHEE: Yes, exactly that`s true.
BEHAR: Right?
MCPHEE: That`s true.
BEHAR: But now, I was watching "American Idol" this week and Ellen DeGeneres was on.
MCPHEE: Yes.
BEHAR: She made her "Idol" debut. She actually was Paula`s replacement, I think.
MCPHEE: Right.
BEHAR: And let`s look at her.
MCPHEE: Ok.
BEHAR: And see how she did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELLEN DEGENERES, AMERICAN IDOL: But seriously, don`t frighten your audience. Don`t get so intense, you know. Sexy and scary is a fine line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, some people were saying the reviews -- were some people were saying she was great, some people were saying she was bland.
MCPHEE: Right.
BEHAR: That doesn`t look so bland -- too bland to me.
MCPHEE: No, I think --
BEHAR: She was out there.
MCPHEE: -- I think if Ellen sticks with Ellen, she`s going to be -- she`s going to be great. And I think we`ll really know how she ends up being as a judge. I mean, I`m a huge fan of hers, but when it goes live - because it`s not really live yet. There`s still an editing process where they`re snipping things --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: -- and that kind of things. So we`ll see how she really does.
BEHAR: What about the Ellen and Simon dynamic, how do you think that`s going to go?
MCPHEE: I don`t know. You know Simon like we said on cam he could pick a fight with anybody. So who knows what he`s going -- what he`s going to pull up his sleeve? I mean, I feel like Ellen is sort of a hard person --
BEHAR: To get mad at.
MCPHEE: -- to get mad at.
BEHAR: I know, she`s really nice I know.
MCPHEE: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you think -- but I mean, Simon is not going to be there after this year, right?
MCPHEE: Well, that`s true, exactly.
BEHAR: That is an issue in my opinion. I think you need someone like him there. They were talking about Howard Stern.
MCPHEE: Right, I just heard that today. And I was like, "oh that`s an interesting choice." Of course, nothing been -- been made, set in stone but -- you know, I think my opinion on the show not having Simon, I think worse things have happened --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: -- I mean, it`s a TV show and it`s been on for a long time. And we`ll just -- you know, we`ll see what happens.
BEHAR: Yes, but you need someone who is really kind of like, not mean but, you know, brutally honest, I think.
MCPHEE: Right but when I was on "Idol" Howard Stern was a huge fan of mine and he -- you know, one of his little psyche -- I don`t watch the show, sorry --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: I don`t watch the show.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: But he -- he has a huge following but he loved me. But any time that actually I have a story -- I didn`t go on his show because like that`s just not -- I didn`t really feel like that was my demographic. I was a young girl --
BEHAR: On his radio show.
MCPHEE: Yes his radio show and I didn`t really want to be asked to show my boobs on television and so --
BEHAR: Thank you.
MCPHEE: -- so I just decided not to go and I think he actually got mad at me. But I like you, Howard Stern. I don`t know.
BEHAR: He got mad at you because you don`t want to show your boobs?
MCPHEE: I think, yes, I think he said something about like, he got kind of mean about my weight or whatever or something mean.
BEHAR: Your weight? Oh, let`s go there. He must have known you had a little bit of an eating problem then and he just --
MCPHEE: No, I don`t think he did. And that`s just what men do when they`re insensitive and that kind of thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: But -- but I had heard that actually that he made a comment about it and I thought well, that`s not very nice.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about the bulimia for a second all right because I know that you`re over it.
MCPHEE: Right.
BEHAR: I read about it and you told me about it.
MCPHEE: It`s so funny I mean, it`s like the way the business goes. And I`m been over for so long and I`m happy to be a role model, and I`m -- but you know I was at the cover of "Shape" magazine. And I mentioned one line and of course that`s what all of things that people run with --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: -- run with. Which is -- which is fine because --
BEHAR: But how long were you bulimic?
MCPHEE: About seven years and they say -- actually experts say that the life span of an eating disorder is about seven years. But it always starts with a diet and always starts with some sort of education about a disorder. And that`s really what happened with me. And I started my whole family and was started on a diet and I was -- I didn`t really need to be on a diet.
But I had -- you know my body, it`s like kids, their bodies change after they are kids --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: -- they`re going through puberty and you put on a little weight or whatever. And I think just for me, I`m such an advocate against diets because I`ve always found that they make you more obsessed with losing weight --
BEHAR: Right.
MCPHEE: --and it`s not really about the lifestyle, like for me, I was in front of all of America losing weight, but losing weight so very slowly and in such a --
BEHAR: Yes.
MCPHEE: -- healthy way because I had just come out of a program that was going to be able to show me, this is the correct way to do things in your life, not crash dieting.
BEHAR: I don`t understand bulimia. Anorexia makes more sense to me.
But throwing up, I can`t even stand to have a grilled cheese go through my nose if I`m laughing. I mean I find it so gross, I don`t know how any girl could do that.
Let`s talk about your album now for a second. You have this new album and it`s called "Unbroken". what does that mean, unbroken?
MCPHEE: Well, "Unbroken" is a song that I wrote with an amazing artist Paula Cole. I was such a huge fan of hers and I was so excited to be able to write with her. But when I was thinking of a title -- like correct title for my record and what I thought would be a good theme for the record was "Unbroken" and I looked it up in the dictionary and it said untamed and wild.
There was a bunch of other definitions but that was one of them and I thought that`s interesting because with my record label and this place that I`m at as part of Universal, they really gave me so much freedom on this record. I got to go write for a long time in Nashville and in L.A. and I spent a year and a half on it. It was just such an incredible experience.
And I thought, like unbroken, that`s a good word to sort of represent how long I`ve been in the business, I`ve still got my things together. I`ve got my life together more than I ever did before people knew who I was. And I just felt like it was a good --
BEHAR: Well, you`re on a roll now. You`re on a roll. You`re doing really well.
MCPHEE: I`m on a roll. Thank you.
BEHAR: You know, I`m happy for you. You`re a nice girl. I like your new hairdo, too.
MCPHEE: Thank you.
BEHAR: Although a lot of the tweeters will like, "Let her go back to her brown hair."
MCPHEE: It will go back to brown. I always do. So I`ll go back to --
BEHAR: I think you`re -- blonde is better.
MCPHEE: Really?
BEHAR: Yes. That`s my opinion.
MCPHEE: Thank you. Some people are saying that.
BEHAR: What do I know? I just say things.
MCPHEE: Thank you.
BEHAR: So thanks any way. Her new album is "Unbroken"
Prolific author Jackie Collins joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: This is a high school dropout who has done pretty well for herself. Her first 26 novels, one more salacious than the other, landed on "The New York Times" best sellers list and have sold a combined 400 million copies worldwide. Wow.
Her 27th and latest book will no doubt follow suit, despite the fact that the title is too hot for TV. But it`s not too hot for me. It`s called "Poor Little Bitch Girl" and I`m thrilled to have author Jackie Collins with me.
JACKIE COLLINS, AUTHOR: I`m thrilled to be here.
BEHAR: My dear -- this week we found out that George Stephanopoulos will not say the word bitch on "Good Morning America."
COLLINS: You know, we cannot blame it on George. Poor George had his cajones cut off because they told him he couldn`t do it.
BEHAR: The network did a little vasectomy for him?
COLLINS: Yes they did. And he was adorable. He said, "This is ridiculous, but I really can`t say it."
BEHAR: No kidding?
COLLINS: And I said, "Ok." And he opened up the interview by saying to me, "You can say it in some other way." But I didn`t. I kept on saying the book that we can`t mention and then my Web site crashed immediately after the show --
BEHAR: Which was great for you.
COLLINS: And I was number two on Google because everybody wanted to know. And the whole crew said to me when the interview finished, "What`s the book called?"
BEHAR: Exactly.
COLLINS: "Poor Little Bitch Girl."
BEHAR: That`s wonderful. You know you landed in Hollywood when you were 15 years I`m reading.
COLLINS: I did, yes.
BEHAR: You were coming from England.
COLLINS: I was coming from England. I was a school dropout, thrown out of school and my parents -- and this is going to be the title of my autobiography. They actually said to "reform school or Hollywood" because I had a sister who was in Hollywood.
BEHAR: Joan was in Hollywood.
COLLINS: She was in Hollywood.
BEHAR: She was not a bad girl like you?
COLLINS: Joan was different to me. She was very -- she wanted to be an actress and she became a movie star. She was doing this film with Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, but I was the wild child. I was running all over the place.
They said that to me and that`s going to be the title of my autobiography, "Reform School or Hollywood".
BEHAR: So you picked Hollywood?
COLLINS: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: And you were just 15 years old.
COLLINS: Surprised, Joy?
BEHAR: You just picked up a 15-year-old from England and decide -- who paid for the trip?
COLLINS: Well, I guess my parents paid to get rid of me. They had already burned my clothes. I was a punk before punk rockers existed. I had all these -- I remember I had these yellow and black very tight pants and a very tight black sweater. And when I was like 14 I looked about 19. And I would sashay down the street and people would look at me and I would go, "Why don`t you take a picture, it will last longer." You know, one of those kids.
BEHAR: I always loved that phrase. It`s good.
What was that scene like when you went to Washington -- to Hollywood?
COLLINS: I should go to Washington too, talking of Washington.
It was very interesting because there were so many kids there trying to make it, you know?
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And my sister lived in a "Melrose Place" type of apartment complex. She met me at the airport -- this is a true story.
BEHAR: So you had your sister there.
COLLINS: No, I didn`t. She met me at the airport. She said -- threw me the keys to the apartment, had a car for me there with the driver. Said he`ll take you to the apartment. I`m on my way to the Bahamas to make a movie with Harry Belafonte. You look after yourself. Don`t tell mummy -- Mummy because we`re English. "You don`t tell Mummy dear that you`re a wild thing."
So off she went on location and off I went to this fabulous apartment complex all by myself where I met all these interesting people.
BEHAR: Which brings me -- I hope we have -- so little time left. I want to ask you about this affair you had with Marlon Brando.
COLLINS: I`m going to write about it in "Reform School or Hollywood".
BEHAR: Well, I mean how old were you?
COLLINS: I was just about to be 16 and he was my favorite movie star. I`m not going to talk about it because nobody`s had the details. I figure I`ll save them. You know how Barbara wrote her autobiography and talked about the (INAUDIBLE) that she had years ago. I figured I`ll do that with Marlon.
BEHAR: I just have to know, was he good?
COLLINS: Oh, baby.
BEHAR: Baby. Thank you, Jackie. Her book is "Poor Little Bitch Girl".
The Kardashian sisters join me next, so stay put.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We all remember Scott Peterson. Remember him? The good- looking man in prison for killing his wife. He was locked up for life but women everywhere sent him marriage proposals. Or remember serial killer Ted Bundy? He got married while on trial. Surprisingly more and more people are finding their soul mates behind the barbed wire and they`re all trying to make their marriages last a lifetime, even if their partner is serving a life sentence. They took till death row to us part, death row do us part very seriously.
With me now to discuss this phenomenon is Tim McDonald, whose wife is serving a life sentence without the parole for felony murder. Gail Sullivan, whose husband is serving three life sentences in a maximum security prison. Plus Judge Jeanine Pirro, host of the "Judge Jeanine Pirro Show," who isn`t married to anybody locked up, as far as we know. OK now Gail, let me start with you. Now you married a hit man who has supposedly killed up to 30 people. Now, what was the attraction?
GAIL SULLIVAN, MARRIED TO A PRISONER: Well he wasn`t a hit man and didn`t kill 30 people when I married him.
BEHAR: OK.
SULLIVAN: The attraction to him was that he was a nice guy. And he had done time and I knew people that had done time.
BEHAR: When you met him?
SULLIVAN: When I met him. And I`ve known him about 40 something years and he wasn`t a hitman at the time.
BEHAR: But -- OK, but -- so you married him knowing that he had some kind of an issue, though.
SULLIVAN: I married him knowing that he had done time, yes. But I also was raised around people that had been done time. My father owned an ambulance service and he only hired ex-cons because in the `50s, they couldn`t come out unless they had a job. And I never had anything really to hurt me.
BEHAR: So these are the guys that you were meeting?
SULLIVAN: Yeah.
BEHAR: I see. Now isn`t it hard to love someone though whose maybe killed up to 30 people? You`re still married to this man.
SULLIVAN: I`m still married to him. We`re married 33 something years. Is it hard? I separate it. I separate. Everybody, I feel, has more than one personality. I don`t look at that personality. I wasn`t impressed with him. It didn`t bother me that he killed all those people. It didn`t affect me except that he`s in jail now. And to me, he`s a nice man. And anybody can label anybody and they can call him whatever they want.
BEHAR: Well, it`s not a label. It`s not like saying he`s annoying.
SULLIVAN: But people can say he`s a sociopath, couldn`t they? They could say he`s crazy. They can say anything. I`m just saying people put labels on a lot of people. I don`t do that. He`s the man that I married. He`s the father of my children, he`s the grandfather to my grand children.
BEHAR: OK, let`s talk to Tim. Your wife is also locked up? What is she there for?
TIM MCDONALD, MARRIED TO A PRISONER: Felony murder.
BEHAR: Who did she kill?
MCDONALD: She didn`t kill anybody. She was there when someone was killed.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. So tell the story, what happened when she was locked up, what happened?
MCDONALD: She was present when one of her abusers killed someone else and she got the same sentence that he got.
BEHAR: Really? OK. So you want to jump in there?
JEANINE PIRRO, JUDGE: Felony murder basically means that she didn`t have to be the one who actually killed the person.
BEHAR: Yes, I see. I didn`t know that.
PIRRO: And so what it means is she was convicted because she apparently was involved in the underlying crime. Maybe it was a robbery, I don`t know. And I`m not suggesting that she is guilty or not guilty. I don`t know anything about the facts. But that`s felony murder. There`s no intent to kill. She didn`t do the shooting. Was it a shooting?
MCDONALD: That`s correct.
BEHAR: How did you meet her?
MCDONALD: I was doing research into the prison culture and --
BEHAR: In what state?
MCDONALD: Six states.
BEHAR: In six states. Where were you living at that time?
MCDONALD: I was living in the state of Washington.
BEHAR: Washington, OK. But your wife is now in a prison where?
MCDONALD: In Tennessee.
BEHAR: In Tennessee. So how did you exactly get connected with her?
MCDONALD: I went online and I also answered newspaper ads for going to prisons, visiting prisons. I actually went, I got names of prisoners, I would write them. I would get letters from them and I would say send me a visitation form. So I was learning the prison culture because I had employed prisoners in construction.
BEHAR: And then what happened with her? How did that get started with her?
MCDONALD: You know, she was the sixth state that I went to, and actually what happened is she wouldn`t send me a visitation form. Her handwriting caught my attention. I was intrigued by her handwriting. She would not send me a visitation form. So we wound up writing for six, eight months.
BEHAR: So it was one of those affairs where you were talking to each other through e-mails and letters?
MCDONALD: No, no, they cannot -- have no access to Internet. It was letters online.
BEHAR: Now you were married at the time, right?
MCDONALD: I was married.
BEHAR: OK.
MCDONALD: I was married when I first met her.
BEHAR: So then what happened? So then you left your wife and moved to Tennessee to be near her? How did it go?
MCDONALD: Not quite. I had a marriage that was over, and then, you know, poor circumstances. But no, I didn`t leave -- I didn`t leave a wife. I was having conjugal with for someone I did not.
BEHAR: I see. So the marriage was over, so then this came up and you decided to move to Tennessee to be near this woman in jail?
MCDONALD: I moved to Tennessee, yes, to cut down on the commute to visit her. But also I moved to the community where her children were so I could become more involved in her children`s life.
BEHAR: I see. Her name is Deion, correct?
MCDONALD: Right.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s listen to Deion talk about it. We have something.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERSA DEION HARRIS, WIFE OF TIM MCDONALD: He said that I was not the reason for his divorce. However, I do feel responsible. Of course I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She appears to feel a little bit guilty.
MCDONALD: She feels guilty about everything. If I drop a can of Coke, she feels guilty.
BEHAR: I see. Jeanine, what is the appeal to you in your mind of people who are interested in people who are in jail?
PIRRO: Well first of all, I think that Gail`s situation is different. She fell in love with this guy before he started killing people. I still don`t get why you didn`t change your mind even a little when he started killing people.
BEHAR: She`s not judgmental.
PIRRO: Right, right.
SULLIVAN: It`s true.
PIRRO: But women think they can change. You talked about Scott Peterson in the beginning. They think they can change the guy and a lot of women and Tim is very unusual. It`s usually the women who marry the guys in prison, not the guys who marry the women in prison.
And by the way, before I have sent people to state`s prison as a judge, I would often marry them and just kind of wonder why they`re getting married before they`re going to state`s prison. But a lot of women think that they get attention, they get letters, the guy can`t be unfaithful if he`s behind bars.
BEHAR: That`s true.
PIRRO: That`s a plus.
BEHAR: Do you like that part of it, Gail? That he`s in the prison and can`t be cheating on you.
SULLIVAN: That`s true. And I also think that it fulfills both needs. It fulfills a need that I may have that he`s giving me attention, it`s one on one and he needs somebody to need him.
BEHAR: Did you ever have any kind of extramarital affair while he`s in prison?
SULLIVAN: No.
BEHAR: He`s been away for quite awhile.
SULLIVAN: Right, I didn`t. But we get conjugal visits. It took us six years to get them, but we get conjugal visits.
BEHAR: You get conjugal visits.
SULLIVAN: Yes, we do.
BEHAR: Do you?
MCDONALD: No.
BEHAR: You don`t?
MCDONALD: No.
BEHAR: So have you ever had any kind of relations with this woman?
MCDONALD: No, I have not.
BEHAR: You haven`t. Oh, so this is -- so you`re still married to her and you love each other, but there hasn`t been any sex. Let`s tell it like it is.
MCDONALD: Yes, that is exactly it is. We are married, we love each other. There hasn`t been any sex and that gets easier to take the older I get.
BEHAR: It`s easier to take the older you get?
MCDONALD: I`m 65 now. That`s a whole lot easier than say than when I was 35.
BEHAR: Well, they have medication these days.
MCDONALD: You`ll have to tell me about that later. But I`m interested.
BEHAR: What do you think of that? It`s more like a friendship than a marriage.
PIRRO: It is and a lot of marriages end up being friendships. But what`s interesting is that Gail has conjugal rights. Not every prison, not every state has conjugal rights. It`s the state prisons in about, I don`t know, six states. And a lot of them, you`re not entitled to it even if you`re in a state prison in a state that allows it. You have to earn it. It`s a privilege and it`s something that a lot of people are against.
SULLIVAN: That`s important because it is a privilege and people that fight for them, they think it`s their right. I`ve learned it`s not a right. It took me six years to get them. It`s a privilege to get them and people should respect that. You know, they should do all those -- inmates should do what they have to do. After all, they`re getting something that 50 other states might not be getting.
BEHAR: Tell the truth, Gail. Do you kind of like it that he`s away?
SULLIVAN: Well, I don`t have to do his dirty laundry. I don`t have to clean up after him.
BEHAR: Seriously, does it appeal to you in any kind of way?
SULLIVAN: I don`t know if it appeals to me, but I`ve always been independent. And I`ve always done things on my own. That`s the way it was raised and it didn`t affect my marriage, even when I was married.
BEHAR: But he`s under control in a certain way. I mean, he is a hit man. He did kill all these people. So this way you know he`s not killing anybody.
SULLIVAN: Right, that`s true. And I know where he is. I don`t have to worry in the middle of the night and say, gee, he didn`t call me, where is he? I know exactly where he is.
BEHAR: What about the children involved? What is your story with children? Do you have grown children?
SULLIVAN: We have two grown children. One has a Purple Heart, he was in Iraq. We have a son who is a teacher and his wife is a teacher. We have three grandchildren and we visit all the time. They visit him, I visit him, the grandchildren visit him.
BEHAR: I see.
SULLIVAN: And the conjugal visits, it`s perfect.
BEHAR: So they go with you, it`s a family affair.
SULLIVAN: And it really helps. And the conjugal visits, and I`m sure you can attest to that, I don`t know if you can, but it really helps the family having conjugal visits.
PIRRO: Yes, there`s no question. I mean statistically, they say that it gives stability to the inmate and also the recidivism rate is lower, not that he`s got the opportunity. The recidivism rate is lower when they come because they`re a little more you know, they`ve connected with the outside world.
BEHAR: But he`s not getting out.
PIRRO: No, but he`s not.
SULLIVAN: But the point is, it doesn`t matter. The thing is, the conjugal visits helped when the kids were there. Don`t do what I did. Learn from my mistakes.
BEHAR: Well your kids have taken the straight and narrow, I take it.
SULLIVAN: Right.
BEHAR: And your husband approves of that, I`m sure. He doesn`t want them to do what he did.
SULLIVAN: Right. Because you end up in jail, for one thing.
BEHAR: But to have that time, we had quality time. I could have been married to a drunk and never got divorced and they would have been battered or I would have been battered. This is quality time we spend with him.
BEHAR: You`re like my mother in a way because she used to say they always have to have something wrong with them. But not all men have to have something wrong with them. Some men are not like that. They`re not flawed.
SULLIVAN: Some women might have something wrong with them too.
BEHAR: I know that. I know that. I`m curious though about a lot of things. So sit tight because we`re just getting started. We`ll be back in a minute with more of this interesting conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking to Judge Jeanine Pirro and two people who married prisoners serving life sentences. Joining the discussion is another woman who made the same choice, Latoya Marion. Her husband is serving a life sentence for grand theft auto and armed robbery. OK, welcome Latoya. You met your husband when he was in prison. Are you surprised that you fell for someone in that situation?
LATOYA MARION, MARRIED TO MAN IN PRISON: Oh, definitely. I mean, that`s not your dream as a little girl to marry a man that`s in prison.
BEHAR: Right.
MARION: Especially not your parents.
BEHAR: So what was it about him?
MARION: His letters. I had wrote him. I met him through his cousin. And it was his letters and the wisdom that was in the letters. Most men, they don`t even sit down and talk. You barely get three words out of a man. So when this man could sit down and articulate and he had beautiful handwriting, why not try? Why not see what it`s about?
BEHAR: That is so interesting, Latoya, because someone else on this panel also referred to the person`s handwriting. What is it about the handwriting that is so interesting? Latoya will tell me too. One second.
MCDONALD: The handwriting is the person.
BEHAR: The handwriting is the person.
MCDONALD: The handwriting is the only thing you cannot fake.
BEHAR: I see. And Latoya, what is the attraction to the handwriting?
MARION: Well, the handwriting was -- it the art. He took time with it.
BEHAR: Well he has nothing but time, let`s face it, Latoya.
MARION: Yes, he had nothing but time, but if you look at my handwriting and then you look at his handwriting, you`ll see that I have no time for you, period. I`m writing up slant, I have high confidence, that`s good stuff. But it`s just the point of it is when you sit back and listen to the words of the person. And probably, he had nothing but time, that`s the same thing my mom said. But it`s the difference between when you have a plan and then you just write something.
BEHAR: Well you know, you`re almost certain that your husband will be released in a couple of months, right?
MARION: Yeah.
BEHAR: How is your life going to change? Now you`re going to have to be with the guy, not just the long distance thing where you can admire him from afar.
MARION: Drastically. I mean, 14 years, you don`t admire nobody from afar. You`re getting to know them, one way or the other. We have issues. It`s almost like a soap opera inside the prison. You have to overcome anger issues. You have to overcome relationship issues. I mean, it`s almost the same thing, but the only thing is he`s not paying bills and I`m not having sex with him.
BEHAR: You haven`t had any sex with him because there are no conjugal visits in Florida. That could be an issue when you actually are in the same bed with the guy.
MARION: It could be, but I don`t have no fear that it would be. Maybe I have forgotten some things. I haven`t had sex in 14 years. A lot of people feel the pain for me.
BEHAR: OK Layota, let`s listen to your husband. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORNELIUS MARION, HUSBAND OF LATOYA MARION: It`s because of her that I`m -- she really put everything on hold to do this. I can respect her for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Does it worry you that he`ll get out and leave you, Latoya?
MARION: You know, a lot of people ask me that question. What are you going to do if he leaves you? Well, he`s leaving the best thing he have had. Yes, I`m a little extra plump than what I was when he first met me. But why would you leave somebody who would fight for you? But I don`t fear that. If he leaves me, that`s his problem. I learned a lot of things out of this situation. I`m proud of myself. I found out who I was.
BEHAR: Good for you. You`re a secure woman. You know, I don`t understand what the good thing for you is. I can see the person in jail, they`re getting all the goodies. They don`t have to pay the mortgage, they don`t have to clean the house, they don`t have to bring in the money. You know, and they`re getting three meals a day, et cetera. What is the advantage for the people outside who are carrying the burden of the money, of the kids?
MCDONALD: What is the advantage to loving anyone?
BEHAR: Well, I mean, that`s true, but this is a more practical question, I guess.
MCDONALD: I know it`s practical, but once again, we all have marriages founded on love. When you love someone --
BEHAR: You do for them.
MCDONALD: There are other -- and love and affection, there`s more to a marriage than the daily checkbook.
BEHAR: Oh, I know that. I know that. But it seems to me they get the better end of the deal.
MARION: It looks like they get the better end of the deal, but you have to remember, marriage is a sacrifice. If you`re not ready to be selfless, you`re not ready to be married.
BEHAR: That`s why I`m not married, Latoya. Go ahead, Gail.
MARION: Cause you`re selfish still.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Go ahead, Gail.
SULLIVAN: But I really think that I get a lot from Joe, I get support. Like if I wanted to change jobs, I want to do things, if I`m questionable about what I should do, how I should raise the kids, where I should go on vacation, what I should do, or just how like the book I wrote, just things that came up, he`s my support system. I can`t go to my kids, they`re younger than me. He`s my support system and he may have done whatever he did and he did, and he admits what he did, but it doesn`t mean that he`s a stupid man.
BEHAR: No you were telling me before that he escaped from Attica. I`d like to hear how that went down.
PIRRO: And they still get conjugal visits. That`s the amazing thing, the guy`s an escape risk.
BEHAR: He`s 71 now. How old was he when he escaped Attica?
SULLIVAN: In his thirties.
BEHAR: In the `30s or in his thirties?
SULLIVAN: He was in his thirties. And in the book that I wrote, "Tears ^ Tiers," it talks about how he escaped. It also talks about how he did it and how he was successful and it took them two weeks to find him and to even tell "The New York Times" that he escaped. It was an ingenious thing. So when I need somebody to bounce something off, I feel like he`s intelligent enough to bounce something off of.
BEHAR: Yes, just because he`s a murderer doesn`t mean he`s stupid. I understand that. Do you ever think -- I have questions from viewers that I`m interested to ask you. How do the wives know their respective husbands are faithful behind bars? Go ahead. Or your wife, or your husband? Go ahead, Latoya.
MARION: The correction officers will tell you. The inmates will tell you. I`ve had inmates write letters that tell you secret things that they`re doing back there. Oh, believe me, you`re being watched and if you`re a likeable person, they will let you know. So you don`t have to worry about that.
BEHAR: Are you concerned, Tim, at all that your wife might be having a lesbian affair?
MCDONALD: I`m more concerned she`s raped.
BEHAR: By another woman?
MCDONALD: No, by guards or anybody in custodial care. I mean, she`s been raped about seven times.
BEHAR: Oh, my god, really?
MCDONALD: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s terrible.
PIRRO: The problem in that situation and I`ve prosecuted a case like that is that the women inmates rely on the corrections officers for food. They rely on them for the fundamental, you know, stuff that they need. And so I had an inmate who actually would do oral sex and then she`d spit it out and save it, brought it to me, and we prosecuted the corrections officers.
BEHAR: Someone wants to know, do they ever try to pass things to them? You know, like send jars of coffee, or do they slip anything in the jar? You know, the chisel in the cake type of thing.
SULLIVAN: Well the point is, they can stop your visits if you do that. So if you`re doing that and that`s a risk. I wouldn`t want to do that because I want those visits. My husband could get 35 pounds a month. If I did that and they found, they go through metal detectors. They are very cautious and they need to be. You know, they are in a prison. I get it. And so we need to really just be on top of our game so we can visit our husbands or our wives.
MCDONALD: We are people that want to see our spouses and we know what their sentence is and we`re not going to engage in that type of behavior. Now if she was getting out in an hour, you would say, so what.
BEHAR: OK stay right there. I want to hear from Latoya`s husband when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with discussing the phenomenon of marrying someone who is in prison. Latoya, let me ask you a question. What will you do when Cornelius, that`s your husband`s name, right?
MARION: Yeah.
BEHAR: When he gets out? Do you want to have children with him?
MARION: Yeah. Of course. My first goal is to lose weight, then start having all the kids because it was a lot of stressful, emotional stress just going through fighting this case, bringing these cases before the people, asking the judge to grant the motions.
BEHAR: You know, people ask me interesting questions on the Twitter. This is something I`ve again thinking of also. If it`s a crime, which this would be your husband, I think who has killed people. If it`s a crime which hurt or killed someone, do you feel guilty or ashamed that you`re married to this person who did it? I don`t get -- I sense that you`re calm about it, that you don`t feel any guilt about it yourself.
SULLIVAN: He did that crime. I didn`t do the crime. I`m my own person. I want people to see me for who I am not for who my husband is. That choice was my choice. I can understand, I feel sorry for those families but that was a mob. All that was mob related. When you`re in the mob, one of the things you can do is you can get killed.
BEHAR: So he didn`t kill wives and children, he just killed other men.
SULLIVAN: Right.
BEHAR: Who were also in the mob.
SULLIVAN: Right.
BEHAR: So it`s very "Godfather"-like, this whole story, isn`t it?
SULLIVAN: Yes, it was very "Godfather"-like.
PIRRO: So they were hits for hire?
SULLIVAN: They were hits for hire.
BEHAR: He was a hit man.
SULLIVAN: Except we never really made any money on it but he was a hit man.
BEHAR: Why didn`t you make any money on it?
SULLIVAN: He didn`t make any money on it because he thought that the mob --
BEHAR: He was a bad hit man?
SULLIVAN: He was a good hit man, actually.
PIRRO: Don`t go there.
BEHAR: It wasn`t lucrative.
SULLIVAN: Right, but he thought the mob would take care of him but they didn`t take care of him. And that was really -- that would have been more of the fighting if anything that they never took care of him.
BEHAR: You can`t trust these people.
SULLIVAN: You can`t trust them.
BEHAR: They are murderers.
SULLIVAN: And also, because he was in jail his whole life and he was in jail with the mob. And you know, all those mobsters that went to jail and they promised him the world when he got out. It wasn`t what they thought, or what he thought.
PIRRO: You know what the interesting thing is, you know, Latoya, and I`ve seen this in my courtroom on my show, a lot of women who stay with men who were in prison and then come out, the divorce rate is extremely high, it`s something like 80 percent.
BEHAR: When they come out.
PIRRO: Yes, when they come out, because they find that this is real life. It`s not the way it was in prison. And I mean, Latoya, you are going to have to work very hard based upon the statistics to fight those statistics.
BEHAR: Well, it`s a huge adjustment because a lot of it is in fantasy land, it seems to me.
PIRRO: It is.
BEHAR: You`re talking about letters and you`re talking about romance and imagery now you have the person in your house. How do you feel about that Tim? Are you going to be able to adjust if she gets out?
MCDONALD: Well, it is going to be different, that`s for sure. I just don`t know if she can paddle a canoe. I mean that`s all I`ve done, I took up canoeing as she was in prison.
BEHAR: You mean literally.
PIRRO: We went to the other place.
BEHAR: I went somewhere with that that I was really wondering.
MCDONALD: Well, you know, not all women will paddle a canoe.
BEHAR: I was wondering, because two minutes ago you were talking about Viagra being a possibility in your future and now paddling a canoe. I made the connection. But that`s just me. I`m just wacky that way.
SULLIVAN: Are you that way? Let`s not go there.
BEHAR: What about you? Are you looking forward to him coming out or not?
MARION: Yes, it`s going to be extremely exciting.
BEHAR: I mean, do you feel that what I just said is true, that there`s a fantasy level that you`ve been dealing with in the letter writing and the handwriting fantasies and all of that?
MARION: Of course. I mean, you`re going to pretend. You`re going to make up what you will do, what you would do, how it`s going to be done. But in the reality, it`s just all about finding out, hey it`s a really life situation. You`ve just got to have faith and keep moving on. Keep thanking God.
BEHAR: OK, very strong people, I think. That`s one thing I have to say, you`re all very strong people. So good luck to all of you. Thanks for joining me tonight. "Prison Wives" premieres Sunday night at 8:00 on "Investigation Discovery." Good night, everybody.
END
