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Tiger Tees up Apology; Child Trafficking Case
Aired February 18, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Tiger Woods has put on a few pounds. I guess he`s not getting as much exercise since he stopped chasing tail.
Then, race is always a difficult subject. Just ask John Mayer. David Alan Grier and Kerry Washington, stars of the Broadway play "Race" join me right here.
Then the finger pointing begins in the Alabama shooting case. Alleged killer Amy Bishop`s husband is blaming the university for her rampage. Is he kidding? That and more right now.
Tiger Woods, you remember him? He`s planning his first public appearance since his Thanksgiving car accident and ensuing sex scandal. Tiger appears to have gained some weight. He should be careful; he`s going to start looking like a golfer.
He`s expected to apologize at the press conference, but is his timing suspect?
Joining me to discuss the latest developments are syndicated radio talk show host Stephen A. Smith; Kate Coyne senior editor of "People" magazine; and Steve Adubato author of "What were They Thinking? Crisis communication: the good, the bad and the totally cooler".
Let me start with you, Stephen. People are dying to hear what he`s going to say at this press conference. We`re like little puppies, what is he going to say. Don`t you think he should be a little contrite?
STEPHEN A. SMITH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: He better be a lot more than a little bit. I`ll tell you that right now. He better be seriously contrite in every sense of the word. I mean, this guy has embarrassed himself, he`s embarrassed his family, he`s brought a stain on the game of golf because you`re bringing unwanted attention to the sport. The fact is, is that he`s hid like -- you know, quite honestly, he`s hid like a little sissy.
This is a guy that has not stepped up to the plate -- that`s right, I said it. I didn`t stutter. The guy, he has had an opportunity to address this to the public.
Please, I don`t want anybody to misunderstand me. I`m not saying that this man has to give details about what transpired with the other women or what`s going on specifically in his marriage.
BEHAR: Right. He doesn`t have to do that?
SMITH: He doesn`t have to do that. But what he has to do is come out, make sure he`s incredibly apologetic to a lot of people, because he hoodwinked a lot of people and he`s been coming across as a bit disingenuous to say the least. He didn`t have a press conference. Well, they`re talking about him not even taking questions. Excuse me, nobody else has had to go through that, why does he? Why should he?
BEHAR: Shouldn`t he take questions, Steve?
STEVE ADUBATO, MEDIA ANALYST: Here`s the thing. My question is, three months, once you wait three months, Joy, the expectations are a lot higher. What are you going to do? How honest are you going to be? By waiting the three months, he has caused people to say, all right, Tiger, we`re waiting. Sorry, no questions.
He blew it. He blew it at the beginning. He blew it consistently. I don`t know who these people that he`s paying are, for public relations and crisis management.
SMITH: They are a nightmare.
ADUBATO: They are a nightmare but in the end, Tiger Woods is responsible. And let me say this. People say -- in the green room and in the makeup room, some people -- come on, he`s a golfer. What`s the difference?
I say you`re right, except the Tiger Woods brand -- Stephen, you know this -- goes beyond golf. His video game -- my kids play video games -- he`s walking on water. There is an ad for Tiger Woods walking on water.
It`s not about golf. It`s about saying he`s bigger than the game; he`s bigger than life. No, he isn`t. Man up, stand up and do what you`re supposed to do which is take the hit. You can`t control this, Tiger. The harder you try, the worse it gets.
BEHAR: Isn`t that unfair, Kate, to put the guy in that position? He`s just a golfer really.
ADUBATO: He`s more than a golfer. But go ahead.
BEHAR: He`s really a golfer. At the end of the day he plays golf.
KATE COYNE, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: I do think he`s a golfer, he`s not an elected official. No one nominated him to speak for the world. I do think that part of what might be his perhaps erroneous strategy here is thinking that if he had to answer hard questions, were there 19 women? Did you get a sexually transmitted disease? Are you addicted to painkillers? Did one of your mistresses have two abortions that you knew of?
The answers to those questions, if you were to answer them honestly, could be so profoundly damaging that he, in weighing the lesser of two evils, might honestly think keeping quiet for as long as he can try to pull this off is still the better way to go.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Hold on, this is the thing that kills me that I find absolutely hysterical. Last time I checked, this is America, there`s nothing wrong with telling somebody to mind their business.
ADUBATO: That`s right.
SMITH: There`s nothing wrong with telling somebody, "Excuse me, I`m not answering that question. Get a life. Go on, move on."
BEHAR: Bill Clinton should have done that.
SMITH: Bill Clinton should -- he would have saved himself a lot of trouble instead of -- he didn`t have to do that but he went in that direction.
I also think it`s incredibly important to understand what separates Tiger. Steve alluded to it, but I`m going to get a bit more specific here.
If this were to happen to somebody like Charles Barkley, you know what, we would cover it but the news would have faded it because you know Barkley would have said? "I messed up", without the details. I messed up. That`s what would have happened.
Tiger Woods has gone about the business of marketing himself as a family man, as a husband, not just a golfer.
BEHAR: I see.
SMITH: Had you kept it to the sport of golf, we wouldn`t have a problem with you. But $900 million of that billion dollar enterprise that you have was basically garnered from you marketing yourself outside the sport of golf. And that`s the problem.
ADUBATO: I`m looking to find a way to disagree with you but I can`t Stephen. Here`s what it is. A, when you make that kind of money, no, you`re not the president of the United States, but you don`t make that for just being a golfer; you make it for being the most successful American brand that I have ever -- beyond Michael Jordan -- crosses all barriers.
The problem is this -- he put himself in the position. He took the cash. He owes, not a detailed explanation, he owed everyone the -- he needed to be seen. You cannot apologize via the Internet. It doesn`t work. People need to see your eyes.
BEHAR: What about his timing, though? He`s doing this press conference --
ADUBATO: It`s not a press conference.
SMITH: Well, here`s the bottom line. I covered Michael Jordan for years. I never say Michael Jordan -- I saw his wife, I saw his kids but I never saw him propping them up front and center to really market himself as a family man. He was a basketball superstar and everything revolved around that.
COYNE: But wait. I`m missing something. I`m missing something because at least in "People" magazine where we love to put people and their wives and their new babies on the cover, Tiger would never do that for us. He wouldn`t do it for anyone. I mean granted, yes, his wife went to the events and brought the kids.
But this was not somebody like say Jon and Kate Gosselin. He really didn`t say welcome to -- let`s do an interview with my wife. Let`s do a photo shoot at my home.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s true but you can`t really control television.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: There were no promos with him and his wife and kids? Am I hallucinating? Did I lose my 20/20 vision?
BEHAR: Hang in there.
ADUBATO: Last interview he did, he said the number one issue in my life is my family, before golf. That`s the last interview he did. He said it.
BEHAR: Ok. Hang in there. We have another segment on this. We`ll be back in 60 seconds with more on Tiger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Tiger Woods may be breaking his silence tomorrow, but we still haven`t heard a peep from his wife, Elin. We do know they haven`t been wearing their wedding rings lately, but that means nothing. It hardly meant anything when he actually did wear it.
Back with me to talk about whether Elin will stay with Tiger or kick him to the curb is my panel. The first photo of Tiger came out since this whole scandal, and here is his wife Elin from this morning, the two of them. They`re both wearing Nike. Is that a coincidence or is there some money involved here do you think? And both of them now?
ADUBATO: Put it this way. Tiger Woods is never going to go broke. We`re going to have a fund-raiser for him. But if he ever loses Nike, it is over. Losing Accenture is one thing, he cannot lose Nike.
So he`s still saying look, I`m going to stay in the game. I`m going to do this tomorrow. I`ll do it very poorly --
BEHAR: And her too?
ADUBATO: Listen, I don`t know what the deal is there, but I wouldn`t be surprised if she were part of that package deal. Let me say this, if she is at that so-called press conference, if he has her standing there, ala Mrs. Spitzer, it is terrible. It is wrong.
BEHAR: I don`t know. Kate, is she going to stand by her man?
COYNE: We`re hearing that she`s not going to be there tomorrow.
ADUBATO: Good.
COYNE: You`re absolutely right, it would be a disaster if she was.
ADUBATO: She didn`t do anything.
BEHAR: But no ring, and, you know, and a -- but they`re in the same outfits together. It`s a little fishy. What`s going on with her?
SMITH: You know, it`s not really about her. First of all, she could have just had a particular Nike warmup suit and just put it on. All of a sudden, just because her husband cheats, doesn`t mean she has to hate Phil Knight. He didn`t do anything. He didn`t cheat on her.
The point is, what I`m saying to you is this Nike was the one company that stood by him. They didn`t drop him like --
BEHAR: Did they have a choice? He was Nike.
SMITH: I`m just saying but Phil Knight doesn`t care. There are a lot of athletes that represent Nike that gotten involved in a scandal. Phil could care less because they still sell his product. He`s a businessman. He doesn`t care about their personal life and that`s really what this comes out to.
ADUBATO: So if Tiger -- if he didn`t think -- if Phil Knight, smart businessman, great marketer -- you`re saying Stephen, if he didn`t think that Tiger Woods could sell products -- Tiger Woods or not -- he`s gone. I agree with that.
SMITH: He`s about the business and making money.
BEHAR: I`m asking you about the wife, though, what about her?
COYNE: Well, what we`re hearing at the magazine is that she really doesn`t know what she`s going to do yet. She`s staying for now. But how long that now is, you know, a cynical way to look at it is she may be staying until she sees if he`s got a viable career ahead of him and more money coming and then she`ll make up her mind.
SMITH: Plausible. But what I will say is this -- bottom line is she`s been betrayed, she`s been humiliated. For her to sit next to him tomorrow would be the ultimate embarrassment.
BEHAR: It is embarrassing.
SMITH: Because if -- listen, he gets to come home after he finishes with the press conference. She`ll probably be there. She does not need to be front and center holding his hand after he allegedly been with a (INAUDIBLE) development for crying out loud.
BEHAR: 14.
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: Here is the way I look at it. I don`t pass judgment on his personal life.
SMITH: Neither do I.
ADUBATO: I don`t care what he does in his personal life. For those of us who are married, it`s tough. You know what I mean.
BEHAR: No, what do you mean?
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: My wife is a big fan of yours, but not of mine anymore. But more importantly here`s the issue -- thanks guys. Here`s the issue. The issue is whether it`s Mark Maguire, A-Rod, it doesn`t matter. Clemmons --
BEHAR: Kobe Bryant, what about him?
ADUBATO: Let me tell you something, Kobe stood up earlier than these guys did. Here`s what I`m saying and I`m not going to compare who did what, because that`s hard to do. It`s apples and oranges.
I`ll say this -- the longer you wait to take the hit in a crisis, the more you think you could dodge it, the worse the hit is, Joy, no matter what it is. Tiger doesn`t get that.
BEHAR: Well, he has waited a long time. And he went into rehab for four weeks. I mean that was a joke.
SMITH: Well, you know how I feel about the rehab thing. Don`t get me started about that.
BEHAR: No. Tell me how you feel about the rehab before we go.
SMITH: There`s no such thing as -- I told Dr. Drew that and I`ll tell you that.
ADUBATO: Sure there is.
SMITH: Stop it. Stop it. Give me a break.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He`s just a horny guy.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: That`s all it is.
ADUBATO: I know. I believe it`s the real issue.
SMITH: He talked about how they marketed Tiger. I want to correct you, Steve, it`s not about how Tiger was marketed. It`s about how he allowed himself to be marketed. If I know that I`m living a certain way and I`m making this money and I`m living pretty, you know what I`m going to do? I`m going to look at these marketers of mine and I`m going to say, "Look, I don`t want to be too much of a phony. Chill with all this. We`re making enough money, don`t create -- don`t deify me. Don`t create me to be holier than thou. I don`t need that."
BEHAR: Ok. I`ve got to go, Steve.
SMITH: I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Thank you guys very much. You`re fabulous.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Up next, actress Mia Farrow joins me to discuss something very close to her heart.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Eight Americans held for almost three weeks in Haiti on kidnapping charges are home. They were among ten missionaries charged with trying to take 33 children out of Haiti after the earthquake last month. Two other Americans remain in jail.
Joining me on the phone to discuss this and the plight of Haiti`s orphans is UNICEF goodwill ambassador Mia Farrow; in Haiti, CNN senior international correspondent John Vause; and former prosecutor, John Q. Kelly.
John, let me start with you on the satellite there. Eight Americans were freed late yesterday. They`re now home. What happened?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the judge decided that those eight missionaries had no criminal intent. He spoke to the parents of some of these so-called orphans that had parents. And the parents said they willingly gave up their children.
Laura Silsby and Charisa Coulter were told to stay behind though and not granted bail. The judge had a few more questions for them. They were back in court today, I was down there. The judge specifically wants to know about a trip that Silsby and Coulter made to Haiti in December of last year.
I asked Silsby about that. She said she came here to an orphanage to give out toys, reading material, other stuff. But unfortunately the judge couldn`t ask those questions today because the interpreter was sick so the two women stayed for about two hours and then were taken back to their Haitian prison cells -- Joy.
BEHAR: Ok, Mia, what do you think of these attempts to take children out of Haiti illegally, what is your opinion on that?
MIA FARROW, UNICEF GOODWILL AMBASSADOR: I have adopted ten children over my lifetime --
BEHAR: I know.
FARROW: So I get the impulse to adopt children and to help children. But this is not the time. Haiti is as we`ve all seen the rubble, children searching for parents, parents searching for children. I gather in this instance, I`m really not familiar with all the circumstances, but some of the children were already in orphanages and being taken care of. What they were being whisked away for is not clear to me. I can`t go there.
I will say to everyone who has the inclination to adopt a Haitian child, you know, wait. Wait until the children are identified as true orphans. And then, you know, when the rubble clears and extended families can be found for some of these children and parents who are looking for children can find them and circumstances are improved so that you can`t go to a person standing in the rubble and show them a picture of a nice house and a swimming pool and say you`re a terrible parent if you don`t give me your child because your child can have this house with a swimming pool or he or she can stay with you in the rubble.
And the parent is presented with an agonizing position. It`s not respectful of the parent to say you can`t give the children anything and we can give them everything. We should be helping the parents to take care of their children and families to be reunified.
BEHAR: Right. Let me ask you, john. The group was released on what they call unconditional bail after only three weeks. What does that mean and was that a political decision that was being made?
JOHN Q. KELLY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I think the feeling was they didn`t have the -- to post any money, no bond, no commitment. They agreed to come back, if needed. I think what the judge found was legally they had violated the law. There was no intent there. They`re still questioning the leader of this group that`s being held but the other eight, they let them go. And these people have agreed to come back and answer any questions that may be in the future.
BEHAR: But they wouldn`t really have to. There`s no bail out; there`s no bail that they had to post. Who is going to say they`re going to go back there?
KELLY: No one. They don`t have to. They may answer written questions, they may do it by video link. They could do it a number of different ways. But they were let go. They found no real criminal intent on the part of these eight people.
BEHAR: Right.
Mia, the judge said he released the eight because some of the parents of the 33 Haitian children taken said they voluntarily gave their children to the missionaries for a better life. You kind of answered it, but how do you react to something like that?
FARROW: I find that deplorable. It wasn`t clear that these people even had -- even if they did have the setup, which it isn`t clear that they did have to bring these children into a so-called better life. They were going to put them in an orphanage that they had not yet constructed or had any infrastructure in place for the children.
I gather one of the youngest, a baby who was actually dehydrated and they had nothing to sustain the children with.
But in the larger picture, they`ve done a lot of harm. A lot of really sick kids, now the pilots can`t fly them to Florida or anywhere else without any paperwork. I know at least seven children have died because of this debacle.
BEHAR: Of those children, my goodness.
FARROW: Because now nobody wants to, you know, they were letting children go on unless they pass a take the dying child and treat them in the hospitals in Florida and elsewhere. Now no pilot wants to hazard that because, you know, in a sense it could be called child trafficking. So without the papers, and of course, there are no existing papers for most of the children as that`s all in the rubble. So these people did a lot of harm.
BEHAR: John Vause, let me ask you two are still in jail, Laura Silsby and Charisa Coulter. Why are they still being held there?
VAUSE: Well, essentially the judge wants to investigate further. This is the French system where the judge is actively involved in the case. His questions are, what were these women doing in Haiti on a trip prior to the earthquake -- a trip in December of last year? He also wants to go to the Dominican Republic to see where this orphanage was going to be set up, The Children`s New Life Refuge. He wants to see it for himself to see if there was in fact an orphanage.
Now, we just heard from Mia Farrow saying there was nothing there. We don`t know about that, but what we did hear from the lawyer today -- the lawyer for these two women, he was adamant saying there is a building there, there are people there. There are no kids there, but there is a structure in place and that`s what the judge is going to have a look at sometime in the next couple of days maybe the next week -- Joy.
BEHAR: Ok. Stick around. We`ll be back with more on this story in one minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: As Haiti slowly recovers from the earthquake, UNICEF is warning that displaced children are in significant danger of being sold, trafficked or illegally adopted.
I`m back with my panel. Mia, how vulnerable are Haiti`s children to being trafficked or illegally adopted?
FARROW: Even before this -- the earthquake, the children of Haiti were vulnerable. Predators were coming through the Dominican Republic and taking children out. There is a huge child trafficking business going on in Haiti and also within the wealthier Haitian families. Poorer families in Haiti have -- there is a tradition now of giving up your children to work in households of wealthier people, thinking -- desperate parents thinking they can give their children a better life.
But actual child traffickers, I think it was ABC sent somebody from their offices in Manhattan to see how many hours it would take to buy a child. This is a couple years ago. And the person left Manhattan, and within five hours was somewhere in Haiti at a hotel and had made a deal. Of course, they didn`t do it.
BEHAR: How do you stop that?
FARROW: The only silver lining I think to this inferno in Haiti right now is that maybe things will get better. Maybe the world finally realizes that just off the coast of Florida, there is a country called Haiti and they were in desperate need before.
I mean I was there just after they had been hit by four hurricanes and I honestly, Joy, I didn`t think it could get any worse. Roads were gone, infrastructure was gone.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s just horrendous.
FARROW: Whole mountains slid down upon towns, drowning families in a thick soup of just mud. And, you know, neighborhoods being run by thugs. And yes, vulnerable children everywhere.
But now, to go in and try and prey upon children that are disconnected from families -- families that are wounded, unable to reunite, it`s a shady situation at best.
BEHAR: Let me ask John a question. Do international trafficking laws do enough to protect children?
KELLY: No, but people are becoming aware of them now, that you can`t just take children across international borders who don`t have the proper paperwork.
Can you imagine? Mia brought up the hurricanes in the past. Can you imagine if during hurricane Katrina if a bus load of wealthy people from Mexico came across, picked up 50, 75 children that were starving, that their parents couldn`t take care of them or had no parents and tried to take them back across the border to Mexico with no documentation? It would be outrageous. There would be an uproar and you know they would still be in jail.
During the tsunami, there was a group of French that took 103 children back to France they claimed were orphans, they`re doing 8 years hard labor right now. You can`t prey on parents like Mia said. She`s done a lot of hard work in this area. But you`ve got to have the proper documentation. You have to make sure these children need the care beyond immediate and extended family they`re getting.
BEHAR: All right John, what are the parents telling you, the parents in Haiti? And let me ask you John Vause, the Haitian parents who give up their kids, what are they saying to you?
VAUSE: The parents in this case, they actually want to get their kids back. Ever since the Americans were arrested, the 33 children are being cared by an NGO here called S.O.S. International. And now the parents have told us they want their kids back, some have said that if given the chance again they might give their kids away to a wealthy family for a better upbringing.
But this group, S.O.S. International will not release these kids until there is an assessment done by Haiti`s social services and that`s obviously going to take some time.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much. Thank you everyone.
Coming up, more bizarre details emerge surrounding the horrific Alabama shooting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: It`s been six days since Amy Bishop allegedly went on a killing spree at the University of Alabama and strange new details are emerging. Apparently Bishop was working on a novel with eerie parallels to her own life and her husband is now wondering if people other than his wife may be to blame for the event. Joining me now with the latest is Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst. Dr. Gail Saltz, associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital. And Rebecca Rose Woodland, criminal defense attorney.
Okay, let`s start with the suspect`s husband. He told ABC news, I have worked around Ph.D`s before and they are pretty much the same. Psychologically, they run hot and cold. That`s why we`re asking the news media to investigate that whole world that no one knows of. What is he trying to accomplish with this type of statement, do you think?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Casting the blame.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: I mean that`s denial. His wife and the mother of his four children just committed one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Psychologically, right, that`s overwhelming. You want to believe there`s some other explanation, some other population to blame.
BEHAR: And you know but she`s the one that pulled the trigger.
SALTZ: Correct.
BEHAR: And everybody knows it was she who did it. So I mean really it`s kind of shooting in the wind, isn`t it?
REBECCA ROSE WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think this may be the precursor to an insanity defense.
BEHAR: Really?
WOODLAND: Yes, I absolutely do.
BEHAR: And that these academics drove her to do this?
WOODLAND: I think that`s might be part of what her criminal defense - before her husband made her -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean I was married to a professor - but let`s not get carried away.
WOODLAND: Yes, I know - part of it.
BEHAR: But is it possible that he had zero idea who this woman was?
SALTZ: It`s possible. You know, people that come together that have problems often come together with other people that have problems. They may have matching problems and not - and need to not see what`s going on.
BEHAR: Denial. Yes.
SALTZ: Denial. And the other thing is that you can guard. Sometimes, psychotic, I mean, really psychotic symptoms that you know you shouldn`t let someone else. You can guard and keep those things to yourselves. And sometimes that`s why these things happen.
BEHAR: Uh huh, Lisa, she was married and had four children. Why do you think she would do this to her children? I mean, what`s going on there?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, she obviously is not thinking about her children at all. And I think her husband`s statement I have a little bit of different take on it. I think it shows that he may have the same motive that she did that is anger at her department. He wants them investigated. I mean these people are the victims.
BEHAR: Right.
BLOOM: She`s the shooter. She`s the perpetrator. If he`s also equally angry at that department and he is buying into her motives. I would want him thoroughly investigated as to whether he was a co- conspirator, whether he helped her, aided her in any way, bought her ammunition, I mean in any way assisted her. I`d be looking a lot more closely at him given that.
BEHAR: Well wasn`t he implicated in the pipe bomb that they sent to the Harvard professor? He - well although it was never proven, right Lisa?
BLOOM: He was the subject of that investigation.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
BLOOM: He says not a suspect. However, law enforcement`s today is saying we never sent any letter exonerating him, which is what he`s previously said to the media.
BEHAR: Okay -
SALTZ: There`s something called folia ado, when a person has some sort of psychotic problem and they share it with another and they`re both involved in this crazy delusional system.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: That happens and that can happen between couples.
BEHAR: Even though there is disturbance.
SALTZ: Like Bonnie and Clyde?
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: I don`t know if they were psychotic. They were making money but you know. It is possible.
WOODLAND: But didn`t they say that they had called the police, there have been numerous police reports called on the house that didn`t make any sense.
SALTZ: Yes.
WOODLAND: So there is the possibility that they`re acting in some sort of coconspirator as Lisa said or in concert.
BEHAR: Okay. A woman who survived the shooting spree spoke to ABC. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBRA MORIARITY, SURVIVOR OF FRIDAY`S SHOOTING: She stepped out into the hall and pointed the gun at me. And pulled the trigger and it clicked and it clicked again. I`m here talking to you today because the gun didn`t fire.
REPORTER: The gun didn`t fire?
MORIARITY: Right, several times. She looked like she was intent on doing this and she was angry. I know I yelled at her, Amy, think about my grandson, think about my daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes. I mean first of all, the woman said that she went methodically down the line like an executioner. That`s kind of strange, isn`t it?
SALTZ: Well, not if you`ve preplanned and fantasized about this for a long time and this is what you often end up hearing in retrospect about cases where there have been multiple shooting, that someone has plotted, planned, thought about it, written about it.
BEHAR: Yes, the mass murdered do plan. And according to another person I was speaking to this week, it is planned out. But you know, the gun jammed. Lisa, you know this probably -- the gun jammed, and so the speculation is that maybe she was going to kill herself. So that`s interesting. It`s sort of like this guy -- you saw this news story today about this plane that went in Austin.
WOODLAND: Yes, yes. Yes.
BEHAR: First he set his house on fire and then he went into a plane killing other people and himself.
WOODLAND: Yes, yes, yes.
BEHAR: What drives people to kill other people when they really want to kill themselves? You know they always say, you know you hear these things. Oh he killed himself and he killed five of his children. Why don`t you kill yourself first.
WOODLAND: Right, right. Why don`t you just kill yourself.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
SALTZ: Suicide is actually an angry act. I mean it`s considered sort of anger depression turned in against the self. But this guy who flew the plane, if you read the letter, you know, he was tremendously angry and felt impotent and powerless. So the idea wasn`t just that he should just take himself out but that he should gain power and gain control by doing this thing that he envisioned as heroic for the little people, you know.
BEHAR: Do you want to say something.
WOODLAND: He envisioned it heroic, unfortunately, he - we think took someone`s life. You know, completely with intent. And I think in this case, that`s going to be seen too that this methodical, this survivor discussing the methodology of the intent will come into play when the defense attorneys try to say, well maybe he was insane, temporarily insane.
BLOOM: Joy.
WOODLAND: The prosecution is going to say, really, we don`t think so. Here you go, survivor, please take the stand and talk to us about what happened. It`s going to be a very hard defense here.
BEHAR: Yes, Lisa.
BLOOM: Can I say one thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLOOM: It`s so important about these two stories. I think it`s so important that we start to separate out the instruments of death from the crazy people. Look, we`re always going to have crazy people in our culture. We are always going to have angry people. We`ve got to keep them out of the cockpits of planes. And we have to keep them from having access to guns.
BEHAR: Right.
BLOOM: You know we have a lot of gun violence in this country that western Europe and Japan doesn`t experience because they have strict gun control laws. We have a culture that`s very pro gun and there`s no political will to get rid of guns. And so we have mass shootings. We had it in this case, a couple of days ago. I`m sure we`ll have another one this month, next month -
WOODLAND: Yes.
BLOOM: Because we have mass shootings on a regular basis in this country. There should be a mental health test to keep people out of cockpits of planes because flying planes into buildings is now something that crazy people want to do. And we have to protect ourselves from that.
BEHAR: Right, okay, thanks you very much, Rebecca, Dr. Saltz. Thank you. Lisa, while I have you here, you`re in the news today. I want to ask you about that feisty fight you had today with Gary Coleman on the Insider last night. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY COLEMAN: My wife is abusing me.
BLOOM: Why don`t you want answer the question about whether you beat your wife?
COLEMAN: You can go (EXPLICATIVE DELETED) yourself and quit asking me.
BLOOM: Really. Is that the way you talk to your wife?
COLEMAN: Yes, I have to, if I need to, but I don`t. But I don`t know you and I don`t care about you.
BLOOM: Is this the kind of anger that leads to your physical assault to your wife?
(CROSSTALK)
COLEMAN: Or get hit by a bus tonight I`m not going to care because she`s pushing my buttons and I don`t like her now. And the next thing I`m going to do is leave. So (EXPLICATIVE DELETED) all of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Wow, that was kind of interesting. Were you scared, Lisa?
BLOOM: No, I wasn`t scared. You know, Joy, I`m an attorney and I`ve represented a lot of women and children in abuse cases. I know how to talk to batterers. I know how they respond. They generally only go after their own family members. And Gary Coleman has pleaded guilty to a domestic violence incident against his wife.
But it was pleaded down to a misdemeanor and he only had to pay a $500 fine. No jail time. And I think in this country, we`re really tired of seeing celebrities get away with bad acts against their own family, drug use, whatever it is.
They`re never held accountable. Nobody ever asks them the hard questions. They get a pass on all the shows. And so I was there to see if he was going to answer the questions. And by the way, the whole point of his coming on the Insider was to set the record straight about the rumors, about him and domestic violence and all the rest of it.
So when we started asking him questions about whether he had abused his wife and he refused to answer, I thought it was - to press a little bit --
BEHAR: Why do you think he wouldn`t answer you, why wouldn`t he answer you? Because he`s guilty?
BLOOM: Well, that`s one possible explanation. And look, he did plead guilty, although he`s never said exactly what he did. And he`s also somewhat denied it and backtracked. So probably his attorney told him not to answer the questions, even though he`s pleaded guilty.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
BLOOM: Probably didn`t want to answer the questions because it was just uncomfortable for him.
BEHAR: Do you think he proved the point that he had an uncontrollable temper during the interview? I mean he basically acted like a, I don`t know, you say it.
BLOOM: I think so. That`s what I do when I`m cross-examining a batterer. And he was batterer on the witness stand, you try to show how quickly they are to anger, how easily they are provoked. And I said, is this the way you talk to your wife and he said, well, if she needs it. Well, you know, I think that tells you a lot. And he stormed out by the way and took my car, took my limo that waiting to take me to the airport. So to add insult to injury we saw Gary Coleman going out with my car. It was really quite something, Joy.
BEHAR: Do you think he needs anger management? Duh.
BLOOM: I think he does. And we can laugh about it but the truth is I am concerned about his health and his wife. He said he is bipolar. You know I`ve known people very close to me who are bipolar, it`s a terrible illness. I wouldn`t wish on anyone. He said he`s not getting any treatment. He`s not taking any medication. You know I wish Gary Coleman well. I hope he gets help and I hope he has a successful marriage.
BEHAR: Thanks. Thank you Lisa very much. Up next, there is a very funny David Alan Grier joins me to talk about "Race" the play and the issue. So don`t go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED: You think black people are fragile?
UNIDENTIFIED: I know they are.
UNIDENTIFIED: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED: Because you deal with shame.
UNIDENTIFIED: Shame?
UNIDENTIFIED: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED: More than other people?
UNIDENTIFIED: All people deal with shame or guilt. Jews deal with guilt, blacks deal with shame. It`s two of the wonderful ways we have the metabolizing feelings of inferiority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I love musical comedies. The whimsy, the farce. That was Kerry Washington and James Spader on Broadway in the David Mamet`s controversial new play "Race," a provocative story that tackles issues of gender, class and of course, race.
Joining me now are two of the stars of "Race," actor and comedian David Alan Grier and beautiful actress Kerry Washington. Hello.
KERRY WASHINGTON, ACTRESS: Hello.
BEHAR: So you know, what happens in this play? Which I loved by the way.
WASHINGTON: Thank you.
BEHAR: I saw it. I really thought it was great. And the audience loved it there. They were yelling stuff out at you.
WASHINGTON: Yes.
DAVID ALAN GRIER, ACTOR AND COMEDIAN: And what part of the audience was yelling?
BEHAR: Mostly the African-Americans.
WASHINGTON: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: Because they appreciate --
(CROSSTALK)
GRIER: Take my mike off. Joy, I`m up out of here.
BEHAR: I think that they appreciated it when you say things like, we hate all white people. And then they go sister--
WASHINGTON: They do, they yell at us, but they also hiss. They hiss.
BEHAR: They do.
WASHINGTON: And they get mad at us for that stuff. Yes.
BEHAR: Uh huh and the white audience is like, oh, my god --
WASHINGTON: The white audience is laughing about things they`re uncomfortable with.
GRIER: It`s a wonderful, rollicking evening.
WASHINGTON: It is. It is.
BEHAR: Basically on the surface, it`s about an alleged rape by a white guy on a black girl. Right?
WASHINGTON: Right.
BEHAR: But that`s not - that`s just the surface of it. Yes what`s the real thing do you think is going on there?
WASHINGTON: The play is about power.
GRIER: It is - I mean that`s one element. I mean what I also think, and so many times in our lives, an incident occurs and you begin to talk about that thing and in that conversation, all of your views of racism, politics, culture, they begin to spew. So that`s really another element. We`re talking as lawyers about the affluence of this case and within those conversations everything we believe, we`ve been taught to believe comes out.
BEHAR: Right very sensitive issues a lot.
WASHINGTON: Yes.
BEHAR: Where you -- did you have any trepidation about tackling it at all as actors?
WASHINGTON: I think the thing about doing theater is you want to find material that`s going to keep you interested over a long period of time. And the play is so complex.
BEHAR: Yes.
WASHINGTON: We`re all still figuring it out. I mean the title is "Race" but like you said it`s about gender, classism, it`s about education, it`s about equality in the workplace, hierarchy, it`s about all these issues.
GRIER: And it`s about my character.
WASHINGTON: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes. And it`s got a lot of blue language in it, too. Which is always appealing
WASHINGTON: Blue language?
BEHAR: You know, dirty, blue.
WASHINGTON: Oh wow - I don`t know -
BEHAR: You never heard blue?
WASHINGTON: No. I like that.
BEHAR: You know it`s a term, comedians know it.
GRIER: Don`t point to me. That was from 1942. I`m young. That`s before my generation.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You never heard blue?
GRIER: No, that`s before my generation --
BEHAR: Okay it`s like A Lenny Bruce term.
GRIER: Exactly.
WASHINGTON: Oh I love.
BEHAR: And David Mamet is you know, he`s known for his blue face and mouth.
WASHINGTON: That`s right.
BEHAR: I mean he wrote a lot of children`s books, did you know that? David Mamet, the author, he wrote "The Cat In The "F"-Ing Hat." He wrote "Fun With Dick" that was a good one and "See G-Spot Run." I mean, look them up.
GRIER: Joy, has someone been doing spots around town?
BEHAR: Has the audience, have they been responding to sort of the anti-politically correct material at all?
GRIER: They have you know -
BEHAR: Because it is not P.C. this play.
GRIER: It`s not. But it`s also as if you are looking through a keyhole of an office.
WASHINGTON: That`s right.
GRIER: So we`re amongst ourselves talking amongst ourselves and also in a law office to prepare ourselves and our clients for, if we take on this case, he`s got to be vetted.
WASHINGTON: Right.
GRIER: Look, if I take on your case, this is what people are going to think.
WASHINGTON: Right.
GRIER: If we as lawyers are going to win this case, this is what we`ll win. This is what won`t win. These are the common beliefs of white people and black people.
WASHINGTON: And we have to be completely honest about what our own biases are -
GRIER: Yes.
WASHINGTON: And so that`s kind of what happens, we all put our stuff on the table and people`s stuff isn`t always pretty.
BEHAR: No, it`s not pretty. In fact Jane --
WASHINGTON: Your stuff is pretty.
GRIER: I always thought it is -
WASHINGTON: Interesting.
GRIER: Look, it`s right there.
BEHAR: James Spader`s character says in the play that Race is, the quote, "the most incendiary topic in our history." Why is it so hard to talk about race in America? Why?
GRIER: I don`t know but I do know that in doing stand-up dates, around the country, especially right after Barack Obama -
WASHINGTON: Do you like to plug yourself?
GRIER: No. I will be at Dingle Berries.
(CROSSTALK)
GRIER: No but people -- there are a lot of people in the country that, you know, especially white people, like is it over yet? Is this conversation done?
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIER: We just elected the first African-American president. Do we still have to talk about this? It`s good to talk. And we`re talking, that`s good. It`s healing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know people - yes.
WASHINGTON: That`s the problem when people come to the show, they leave really wanting to talk about the issues. Because the show is funny and provocative but it`s really, I mean it`s kind of a who done it and how they did it show.
BEHAR: Yes.
WASHINGTON: And so you leave with a lot of questions and it`s exciting and mysterious.
BEHAR: And funny at times.
WASHINGTON: That`s right.
BEHAR: Because David, you get a lot of laughs during the play with this exchange. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED: I didn`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED: You`re white.
UNIDENTIFIED: Is that a crime?
UNIDENTIFIED: In this instance.
UNIDENTIFIED: You`re kidding.
UNIDENTIFIED: Sadly, I`m not.
UNIDENTIFIED: Do you care that I`m white.
UNIDENTIFIED: Do I hate white folks, is that your question? Do all black people hate whites? Let me put your mind at rest. You bet we do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes, that`s the line, very provocative. The audience laughs. Is it true? Is it true in your opinion?
GRIER: I hate you with a passion.
BEHAR: You hate Behar, besides me. Anybody else?
GRIER: No, here`s what I think. Here`s what I think. Do all black people hate whites? No.
WASHINGTON: Don`t speak for me.
GRIER: Oh, I`m sorry. I don`t think so. Do all black people hate all whites?
BEHAR: Well that`s the line.
GRIER: No.
BEHAR: Of course it`s written by a white guy.
GRIER: Exactly.
BEHAR: You know let`s just put that out there.
WASHINGTON: Yes but so, it`s a character.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s not a brother exactly.
GRIER: It`s within the moment of that play.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIER: I think the purpose of that language, again, is to vet this potential client. Given the case that we may or may not take, these are the issues that you will be --
WASHINGTON: That you have to face.
GRIER: Exactly. And also it`s to cut through the two-day conversation that we would have to have if I didn`t say that, which means, you know, I had a colored friend. I really like black people.
WASHINGTON: I like (UNINTELLIGIBLE)-
GRIER: Exactly. Rap music isn`t that bad. You know, dude, come on, we got to speed it up.
WASHINGTON: When you look at the historian through, we`re coming from a place when the constitution was written, black people were two thirds of a human being.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s wrong -
WASHINGTON: And -
(LAUGHTER)
WASHINGTON: Wow.
BEHAR: That was when bloom meant something.
GRIER: Before the microphone.
BEHAR: Yes. Go ahead, sorry.
WASHINGTON: And we now have a president who is black, so how could you kind of wrap your head around that huge arc of thinking? That`s big difference.
BEHAR: Sometimes I think the country`s racist and sometimes I don`t. Like this last thing with Haiti, for instance. Millions and millions of dollars went down there from probably a lot of white people, so it made me feel good about the country then, but then sometimes I don`t think so.
GRIER: But there are some people who will remain bigoted, sexist, racist and we will have problems. But the vast majority of America, I believe in. Because if I didn`t, if we didn`t, then Barack Obama could never have been elected and these great gains could never have been made.
BEHAR: You know, when come back, I want to talk about Barack Obama with you.
GRIER: Thank you, can we move in that seat because - is talking.
BEHAR: Are you all right?
WASIHNGTON: No.
BEHAR: Stay right there. You can change seats if you want? She won`t --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Back with me are two of the stars of the Broadway play, "Race," actor and comedian David Alan Grier and actress, Kerry Washington. You know let`s talk about Obama a little bit, you know it seems like last year, everyone was in love with him. This year, only 50 percent are in love with him. He lost half his audience somehow. What happened?
GRIER: Well, he became president, that`s what happened.
WASHINGTON: Exactly.
GRIER: he became president. But the one thing that I think for African-Americans, we were expecting that. That`s what`s going to happen.
BEHAR: You were expecting that?
GRIER: Of course.
BEHAR: Why? What was going on?
GRIER: Because running for president is different than being president. It is a courtship with the entire country. Think about the stuff you said to the guy you`re with now before you got with him. Yes, honey, I`m going to rub your feet every day.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I never said that.
GRIER: And your body is going to smell like carnations.
BEHAR: I never said that either.
GRIER: Oh I`ll never get in a bad mood. You know all that kind of stuff. It is harder to run the country --
BEHAR: I said "a little lower, please.".
GRIER: Don`t do that get off of me. Just go somewhere.
BEHAR: Now I say that but I mean, I was a little bit upset that everyone is not in love with him as much as they were. I am. I still think he is great.
GRIER: I do, too, but we have very severe problems and I am convinced that for most of America, they still never knew how close to the precipice this country was, in terms of the economic market. The real estate crisis, those alone, plus the war, and all this other stuff. It was - it still is a perilous time, and yet that cannot be fixed in a year. I don`t care who is president.
WASHINGTON: I want to actually plug, David wrote a really great book called "Barack Like Me,".
BEHAR: Yes.
WASHINGTON: And it`s sort of like a love letter to the president and to the experience of the campaign and Barack becoming president, it`s a great book. Yes.
GRIER: Thank you, thank you, Kerry.
BEHAR: How much did you have to --
WASHINGTON: I`m getting a check after the show.
GRIER: Oh you are going to get more than that.
WASHINGTON: Oh, god.
BEHAR: Oh, my goodness. Kerry, you campaigned for Obama.
WASHINGTON: I did.
BEHAR: Right.
WASHINGTON: I did.
BEHAR: And you are now part of his administration.
WASHINGTON: That`s right I`m part of the -
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
WASHINGTON: Part of the president`s committee for arts and humanities.
BEHAR: What you do you do there?
WASHINGTON: We are an advisory council to the White House on issues of arts and humanities in the country and in our community. Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIER: Tell her really what you guys do.
WASHINGTON: What do you mean?
GRIER: Went to the White House and she stole napkins.
BEHAR: Everyone steals napkins from the White House.
GRIER: Are you kidding, isn`t that a federal crime?
WASHINGTON: I think during rehearsal, I went to the White House and brought White House cookies for everybody because I got inducted during our rehearsal period.
GRIER: But you also brought back this big seal that you told us not to say anything -- oh, sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
WASHINGTON: He is so good with secrets, isn`t he?
BEHAR: Isn`t he -
WASHINGTON: So good.
BEHAR: Now, you guys are going to be in the show till when? Till June.
GRIER: June.
BEHAR: And then what will you be doing? Do you have a plan?
WASHINGTON: Acting. Be acting.
GRIER: Kerry and I will be in a movie, risque, lovers --
BEHAR: Are you going to be in a movie together?
GRIER: Yes.
WASHINGTON: No.
BEHAR: No.
GRIER: I can dream, can`t I?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: which one of them comes on to you when the curtain comes down?
WASHINGTON: None of them to be honest with you?
BEHAR: Spader, Richard Thomas or David?
(CROSSTALK)
WASHINGTON: I have three new brothers.
BEHAR: John Boy is a (inaudible)?
GRIER: No he is John Man (ph).
WASHINGTON: No, he`s lovely.
BEHAR: He`s John Man.
GRIER: He is, he is.
BEHAR: All right we got to go. Thanks very much.
WASHINGTON: Thank you.
BEHAR: A lot of fun being with you.
WASHINGTON: Thanks for coming.
BEHAR: Okay. You can see David and Kerry starring in David Mamet`s "Race" on Broadway, go check it out, it is really a good play, good night, everybody.
END
