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Joy Behar Page
Celebrity Kids and Suicide; TEA Party Politics; What Now Tilikum; Isaac Mizrahi Talks
Aired March 01, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the 18-year-old son of Marie Osmond takes his own life becoming the second child of a famous performer to do so in less than a week. Is having a famous parent a benefit or a handicap?
Then the TEA Party Movement celebrates its first birthday today. Hey, happy birthday but be careful of those candles. You don`t want to have to call in the fire department. That`s socialism.
And the funny and outspoken Isaac Mizrahi joins me, just in time too. I can`t decide whether to pattern my new look after Lady Gaga or Snooki. That and more right now.
Two celebrity families are in mourning after two young men took their own lives. Marie Osmond`s 18-year-old son Michael jumped to his death in Los Angeles on Friday and the body of Andrew Koenig, son of the actor who played Chekov on "Star Trek" was found dead in a wooded area of a Vancouver park.
Are these deaths just a tragic coincidence or do children of celebrities have a harder time making their way in life?
Joining me to discuss this are family therapist and best-selling author, Terry Real; Danny Bonaduce, actor and radio talk show host on 94.1 WYSP in Philadelphia; and CNN legal analyst Lisa Bloom. Welcome to the show.
Lisa, let me start with you. Both of these guys had histories of depression, am I right?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
BEHAR: So, Terry, are kids and both of you, are kids of celebrities more prone to depression and suicide than other kids? Let`s start with Terry.
TERRY REAL, FAMILY THERAPIST: I think that celebrity kids are vulnerable to all sorts of additional stress. It`s not so easy being a celebrity kid. There are some factors that go into your life that just are not shared by more normal kid.
BEHAR: But, Danny, you know, because Gregory Peck`s son also killed himself.
DANNY BONADUCE, ACTOR & RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes.
BEHAR: And Paul Newman`s son I believe Scott and Mary Tyler Moore`s son was iffy, wasn`t sure, probably not. But I think that there are tremendous pressures for kids of celebrities. Now is it -- you were in the spotlight, Danny, as a kid.
BONADUCE: Yes.
BEHAR: So was it harder for kids who in the spotlight or kids whose parents are in the spotlight? What do you think?
BONADUCE: For me my life was much easier being in the spotlight. I was a very overweight kid and I took two cheerleaders to the prom and that was sheerly because I was Danny Partridge. It had some sheer benefits to it.
I don`t want to say there are not problems inherent to having a famous parent but two young ladies, 16 years old, just killed themselves in Philadelphia by standing on train tracks and neither one of their parents were famous.
Number one killer of teens, drunk driving, number two, suicide and I`ll bet if you go by per capita, most of their parents aren`t famous. Being a teenager is hard enough. I don`t think we have to make it harder by giving them a celebrity parent.
BLOOM: But it is -- there are special challenges. I mean I grew up with my mother Gloria Allred being a celebrity attorney and I learned early on to be very careful about whatever I said publicly if I`m interviewed and asked, "What do you think about your mom?" And I say 99 positive things and one negative, the one negative will be the headline and the 99 will be left out.
So I learned to distrust the media. I learned to very careful about everything I said.
On the plus side I learned what you could do with the media in order to get your message across like you`re talking about. There certainly are a lot of advantages to being a celebrity, money being one of them. But as a child growing up with all of that, I think it`s very difficult to navigate your way through. And I have a lot sympathy for the people that you`re talking about.
BEHAR: What made you survive so well? You did so beautifully? You`re not only famous yourself but you don`t seem to be crazy at all.
BLOOM: Well, thank you. Some people would probably disagree with you. You know, I don`t know. I think we were raised -- I was raised with certain values that were very important that everybody is equal.
You know, I grew up on picket lines working for the rights of people in the labor movement and women and --
BEHAR: Did your mother pay attention to you?
BLOOM: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Did you come from -- was she a single mother?
BLOOM: She was for about half the time and then she remarried. So we were very close when I was growing up. I`m an only child. She`s my only mom. And we`re still close and I try to raise my kids with the same values.
But I also want to say that depression is a disease. And these people died from the disease. It may not have been because of any of these environmental factors.
BEHAR: That`s possible too. So Dr. Real, do you think -- what about the fact that Andrew Koenig killed himself and then this boy? Do you think there was any kind of copycatting going on or anything like that?
REAL: No, there`s no real evidence of that. I think that, you know, suicide is the number three cause of death in kids 15 to 22. And as Danny was saying not all these kids are celebrities` kids or copycats. It`s just statistical.
On the other hand, I do want to say there are -- both of you guys had positive experiences with celebrity. But there are also a lot of stressors as you mentioned. There`s the publicity thing. But also a lot of celebrities are very dedicated artists, and you look at them on stage and you think, "Oh, God, wouldn`t it be great to know them as people." And what you may not understand is you may be seeing the best of them like you would see with any other artist.
On stage in front of 60,000 people, fantastic. At home playing scrabble with the kids, maybe not so much. So these are very dedicated, high-powered people and kids of these celebrities are like kids, very wealthy people, people of any successful people and there are issues.
BONADUCE: But nowadays I think especially with reality television you`re actually being paid the most of your money to be as bad as you can be. It used to be being a celebrity you wanted to show your finest qualities and now God bless the people from "The Jersey Shore". God bless little Snooki and the situation --
BEHAR: Why.
BONADUCE: They`re being themselves. They`re putting themselves out there -- it cannot be easy to walk around being Snooki. It`s can`t be an easy day to walk around and know that everybody calls you "the situation".
BEHAR: They like that.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: I think they`re pretty happy about it.
BONADUCE: That`s the point. Does anybody take them seriously? We used to take Paul Newman very seriously and Gregory Peck. Celebrities are now not taken seriously because they`re a dime a dozen. They used to say - -
BEHAR: Well, the question for them and probably for all these kids is when the series is canceled, then is there such a drop for them in life that they can`t take it anymore?
Stay where you are. Don`t go anywhere. We`ll be back in 60 seconds with more from my panel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIE OSMOND, ENTERTAINER: This is something that affects every single family now. It`s like 25 percent of the kids end up having these problems these days.
And so the way he`s dealing with it with the things he`s been through, I`m just proud of him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Marie Osmond on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" in 2008 talking about her son Michael going to rehab. He was only one of many children of famous people who struggled not only with depression but with addiction as well.
Back with me is my panel.
Terry let me ask you something. Do depression and addiction often go hand in hand for kids of celebrities?
REAL: Yes.
BEHAR: Is it sort of a way to self-medicate, do you think?
REAL: Yes, absolutely. It`s a way to get out of the pain and boys are more prone to do it than girls. One of the things that I wrote about is that boys and men experience depression often differently.
Girls tend to internalize, they feel bad and know it. Boys tend to act out so when you`re looking at a teen particularly you`re looking at self-medication, increase in booze or drugs. You`re looking at increased aggression, somebody getting into fights as well as the classic signs of sadness, loss of interest, loss of pleasure and the usual things we think about.
BEHAR: Is the rate higher with boys? Is the suicide rate higher with boys?
REAL: The suicide is four times higher for boys than it is for girls.
BEHAR: Wow.
REAL: When boys and men decide to kill themselves they`re very efficient about it and they tend to be -- look, we have one kid, Andrew, hung himself; the Osmond boy stepped off a roof. There`s no superficial cutting here.
BONADUCE: There`s no crying for help.
REAL: When the boys decide that they`re going to do it they do it.
BEHAR: I think it`s kind of violent what they did too.
REAL: Suicide is a very violent act, no matter if you do it gently or not.
BEHAR: Not if you take sleeping pills --
(CROSSTALK)
REAL: You`re still -- you`re ending your life. I mean there`s no ways that that`s a nice thing to do to yourself.
I think the point about not blaming the parents is really critical. Depression is a biological disorder. You could be raised by Ozzy and Harriet and you`re still going to wind up being depressed.
Medicine is really important. Treatment is really important. You know what? Depression is one of psychiatry`s great success stories. 90 percent of people who get help report substantial relief but only three in five people get that help. So if you think your kid is struggling with depression, get them in front of a mental health professional.
BEHAR: You know, in the new issue of Vanity Fair Michael Douglas blames his focus on his career for his son`s problems. I was thinking that must have been very hard for this boy, I think his name is Cameron.
BONADUCE: Yes.
BEHAR: To sit with "Spartacus" and "Gordon Gecko". I mean seriously --
BONADUCE: No, absolutely.
BEHAR: You have two really tremendous icons in the family. How do you live up to that?
BONADUCE: Actually, there`s more than that.
BEHAR: And Michael Douglas`s brother, Eric --
BONADUCE: Brother Eric also died.
BEHAR: Eric killed himself, too.
BONADUCE: Also killed himself after a very long bout with drugs. But imagine, that if you will -- an I`m not trying to be flippant and all -- but imagine sitting at dinner with Spartacus and having him say, "Please pass the potatoes." You go, "Ok, whatever Spartacus, fine."
BEHAR: Well, I think it`s having to live up to their reputation as great actors, both of them.
BLOOM: Yes, look it`s always hard for kids --
BONADUCE: And Eric did not have that capacity.
BLOOM: It`s character always working, that`s always hard for kids because kids need time, they need quality time and quantity time. But it`s a far cry from that to suicide which is what we`re talking about today.
BONADUCE: Now, I agree.
BLOOM: I`ve had people close to me commit suicide and had to struggle with and ultimately come out the other side of -- this is the person`s choice that they made, this is not the fault of their friends and family. And it`s so important for family members not to blame themselves.
I mean, a lot of people worked too hard, a lot of people don`t spend enough time with their children. Most of their family members don`t kill themselves. And suicide is a product of depression and it`s a choice made by the person who does it.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLOOM: Those who are left behind are not to blame.
BEHAR: But you know what? If your kids are taking drugs, that is a form of being on a suicide track.
BLOOM: That`s right, maybe.
BEHAR: You are about to destroy yourself --
BLOOM: That`s right.
BEHAR: -- if you are taking drugs and a lot of parents -- I don`t they -- I think they`re too busy some times --
BONADUCE: I agree with you on that.
BEHAR: They`re not eating and they are not paying attention.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: And I think more celebrities probably do expose their kids to drugs --
BEHAR: Yes.
BLOOM: -- because they themselves are taking drugs.
BONADUCE: That`s where the --
BLOOM: -- and replacing with alcohol.
BONADUCE: -- the few places where I think somebody has absolutely no rights. If you think your kid is on drugs, don`t guess, go through his room, take all of -- empty his drawers upside down because that`s the point where you get to. If you`re wondering, you are probably right.
Nobody knows anybody like they know their kid. And if they come home one day hanging out with a different crowd, they`re behaving differently and they`re not speaking at dinner, I say you go through all their stuff.
BEHAR: And, and --
BONADUCE: I`m telling you right now don`t let them out, privacy is not important when the welfare of your child is at stake.
BLOOM: And legally that`s ok, by the way.
BONADUCE: Yes it, is.
BEHAR: Thank you for telling us that.
BLOOM: Until the age of 18, they are free.
BEHAR: Thank you all very much.
BONADUCE: I got a lawyer and psychologist, I`m at home.
REAL: Thank you.
BLOOM: We are here for you.
BEHAR: "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" will have more on the tragic death of Marie Osmond`s son at 11:00 p.m.
Up next for us, it`s a TEA party tug-of-war and I`ll have the latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Well, the TEA Party Movement turned one-year-old this weekend. Sarah Palin celebrated by suggesting they take over the Republican Party -- seriously.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Let`s just get in there and take over one of the parties. I vote take over the Republican Party, TEA partiers and get them to see the light. They are seeing the light clearer and clearer every day but get them to understand what it is that built this country. Get back to the foundation of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She`s inspiring.
You know, if she really is in their corner maybe she should give back the 100 grand she charged them to speak -- just a thought.
Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont is here along with Stephanie Miller, radio talk show host of "The Stephanie Miller Show" and Margaret Carlson, columnist at Bloomberg and Washington editor for my favorite magazine, "The Week".
MARGARET CARLSON, BLOOMBERG: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: Hi. Let me start with you, Senator. Senator, if the TEA party did take over the Republican Party, would that be good or bad for the Democrats?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Well, as an Independent, my observation is that it would be extraordinarily good for the Democrats, because when you analyze and you go beyond the rhetoric, what you find out is that these guys want to abolish Medicare and Social Security --
BEHAR: Right.
SANDERS: -- and Medicaid and the Veterans` Administration.
There really is not a whole lot of policy substance to what they are saying, when the American people learn that behind the anger. There is not a whole lot to be said. I think it works to the Democrats` advantage.
BEHAR: Well, you know, it was interesting that Dorothy Rabinowitz of "The Wall Street Journal" wrote this week I quote her, and she said, that the TEA party is a group of, quote, "conspiracy theorists, anti-government zealots, 9/11 truthers and assorted other cadres of the obsessed and deranged."
Now, do the DEMs even have to take on the TEA party when their own side is attacking them like this?
STEPHANIE MILLER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Oh, I think -- no, I think no, I think it`s an excellent idea for them to take over the Republican Party. I hope they bring those goofy hats with the little TEA bags that hang in their eyes. Because they don`t look crazy at all -- Joy.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know, do you think they`re going to crash and burn by themselves?
MILLER: I think so. Because let`s face it Joy, not all of them -- a lot of them are there because there`s a black guy in the White House.
BEHAR: Do you think so?
MILLER: There is obviously a racist element to this. But then let`s look what are these birthers please. Let`s see the birth certificate. Like, oh, my God.
BEHAR: Bernie, do you think that there`s racism in the TEA party?
SANDERS: Well, the answer`s -- I`m sure there is some but on the other hand, let`s be very clear. People in this country especially men are extremely angry because the middle class is in the process of collapsing. You have guys who have worked -- are working 40, 50, 60 hours a week and they`re making less money than they did 10 or 20 years ago.
What they are perceiving is there is a gap between the very rich and everybody else; their jobs are going to China and they are angry. And what has happened is to a significant degree, corporate interests have taken the justifiable anger and turned it into a movement which I think is not capable of even beginning to address the real problems that we have in rebuilding the middle class. But don`t underestimate the legitimate anger that is out there with the collapse of the middle class.
BEHAR: Right. I don`t underestimate it.
Margaret, let me ask you something about -- do you think there`s a lot of violent rhetoric coming out of the right? I mean, Tim Pawlenty, for example, he said that they should take a nine iron and smash big government like Elin Woods did.
Michele Bachmann -- she`s another beauty -- people should be armed and dangerous against climate change activists. I am frightened by the fact that these people in governmental positions are talking like this. Are you?
CARLSON: And there is some sympathy with the guy who took the airplane into the -- into IRS headquarters killing a veteran who was just about to retire and injuring scores of others. There`s -- it`s easy to tip over and there is a tipping point.
Tim Pawlenty, who is not an angry guy generally; he is a sort of Mr. Rogers of Minnesota, he had to gin that anger up and got himself into a really bad metaphor there with the nine iron smashing because at CPAC -- I was there -- there are people going around with -- with T-shirts with great big machine guns stenciled on their shirts.
So you don`t really don`t want to let that metaphor go in that atmosphere. And Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi would like to tap into some of the TEA Party and she just did the piece of it that Senator Sanders mentioned, which is the piece of it that`s really opposed to the special interests taking over or having an inordinate say in government.
So that the banks seem to be prevailing and the insurance companies, well, taking on the TEA parties, you get a whole bunch of other stuff of birthers and birchers and secessionists --
BEHAR: Right.
CARLSON: -- militia man and gold bugs.
BEHAR: They are coming out of the woodwork.
CARLSON: Yes.
MILLER: And then, it is violent, Joy. I mean, that`s the same convention Margaret was just talking about CPAC, they had pinatas of Nancy Pelosi --
BEHAR: Yes.
MILLER: -- and a punching bag of Harry Reid and you know, Senator Sanders is right. There is legitimate anger out there but it shouldn`t be at the whole government. You know, they try to do this thing that government doesn`t work.
Well, FEMA worked under Bill Clinton. It didn`t work under George Bush so it`s not that the government doesn`t work.
BEHAR: Heck of a job, Brownie.
But, you know, why -- Senator, why aren`t the baby boomers taking to the streets like we did in the `60s? It seems as though the left is not motivated and mobilized.
SANDERS: I think that`s a very good point. I think the left and progressives in general were motivated for Obama`s campaign. And I think that campaign was a brilliant effort at a grassroots organization.
I think sadly since the election, a lot of it having to do with Obama himself. We have not reached out with a progressive message to ordinary working people that says, "You know what, we`ve got to take on Wall Street so that these crooks are not able to continue to destroy our economy. We got to take on the insurance companies and the drug companies so that we`re not the only country in the industrialized world that does not guarantee health care to all people."
BEHAR: Ok, thank you very much, guys. Stay right there. We`ll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Lying, cheating, hookers, police; is this an episode of "Law & Order"? No, it`s Albany, New York, and the New York state governor`s office. First Eliot Spitzer gets caught with his pants off and his wallet open and now his replacement David Paterson may be caught up in trying to hush a woman who accused his aide of assault. He says no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. DAVID PATERSON, NEW YORK: I have never abused my service, not now, not ever. And I believe that when the facts are reviewed, the truth will prevail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: FYI, a woman named Kristen Davis (ph) who is the alleged madam in the Spitzer scandal is also going to be running for governor. Let me ask you something, Margaret.
MILLER: Perfect.
BEHAR: Who do you trust more, you guys, politicians or prostitutes?
CARLSON: Well, in this case I would go with Davis and actually Deejay Johnson`s girlfriend. He was a driver who was elevated just because he was a crony of Paterson`s into the job he had. And then, you know, you can help your friends when you`re you or me, Joy, but once you`re in office you really can`t help your friends and Paterson was trying to help his friend. That`s illegal.
BEHAR: Senator, don`t you think that if he was aiding and abetting this guy and also cover-up and obstruction of justice, shouldn`t he resign immediately and not really serve out his term?
SANDERS: Well, that`s the if and he denies it and he`s entitled to his day in court.
BEHAR: I`m saying if it`s true.
SANDERS: Well, I`m not too much into hypothesis on these things. We`ll see what unfolds but, you know, I think from the perspective of the average American, maybe we spend too much time worrying about issues like that and not enough time, frankly, about how we`re going to create the millions and millions of jobs that this country desperately needs or how we`re going to deal with the other major issues facing our country.
BEHAR: I agree with that. But you still don`t want corruption like that in government. Go ahead.
MILLER: Well, the senator speaks for obviously what`s good for New York and for the country. I speak for what`s better for comedy. And that`s to get that hooker in office as soon as possible. I think that that way you`d have the hooker --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Given -- Margaret, what was I going to ask you, who do you think is worse? The governor -- Spitzer, Sanford, Blagojevich, Gibbons or Paterson? It`s like a governors` overhaul we need.
CARLSON: You`re killing me here, Joy. Maybe -- well, Gibbons takes the recent prize for actually bringing his mistress not on vacation but to the National Governor`s Conference in Washington, just begging, you know, to be confronted about it.
MILLER: But my favorite part of that is someone that lies right while they`re caught. Governor, the woman just got in the car behind you. No, she didn`t. What woman? No, she didn`t. Was she on your flight? No. What woman?
It was like Sarah Palin with the turkey and the wood chipper. Governor, it`s right behind you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It`s his imaginary girlfriend.
BEHAR: Thank you all very much.
Up next, should the killer whale involved in last week`s SeaWorld death be set free? I`ll have an update on the story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HLN ANCHOR: The SeaWorld trainer killed by a whale last week was buried today. Now the tragedy has raised a question, what to do with the killer whale Tilikum? Should he be put down or put out to sea or neither? Joining me is marine mammal scientist for the humane society of the United States Naomi Rose, welcome to the show Naomi. What should happen to Tilikum, do you think.
NAOMI ROSE, MARINE MAMMAL SCIENTIST: Thank you for having me, Joy. I think that I`m going to propose a fairly radical option to SeaWorld. I hope they`ll consider retiring him to a sea pen in the ocean. I think that it`s been pioneered by Keiko, the whale that starred in the movie "Free Willey" who was sent to Iceland and lived there five years, somewhat free to come and go. He never became totally independent. I think that`s an option they should think about for Tilikum.
BEHAR: Doesn`t it cost a lot of money? It might be too expensive?
ROSE: I think SeaWorld can afford it.
BEHAR: Okay. Where - where is he now?
ROSE: Tilikum?
BEHAR: Yes.
ROSE: He`s in Orlando and he`s in the facility -- that he`s lived in for quite some time. I think he lived there in 1991 or `92. Unfortunately, because of the incident with Dawn Rancho, they are holding him in a side tank which I think the aerial clips that I`ve seen I don`t know whether he`s still there but it is a very small medical pool and he`s isolated there and I think that that is probably doing a great deal of harm to his both physical and mental health. It`s not natural for orcas to be isolated that way.
BEHAR: I have the impression you`re not a big fan of SeaWorld. Am I wrong?
ROSE: You are not wrong. I`m not a big fan of keeping these large intelligent socially complex predators in confinement this way. I studied orcas in the wild so that`s where I know them best. And as the years went by as I was doing my research and I saw them in these small tanks they just shrank before my very eyes. They became so small I started feeling claustrophobic.
BEHAR: I want to call the whale Tillie. Is that what they call it affectionately, Tillie, I guess.
ROSE: I guess, yes.
BEHAR: Yes, did Tillie do this out of some kind of feelings of aggression or was he just being playful when he pulled her into the water?
ROSE: In Tilikum`s case I think it was play. He`s never been habituated in the presence of trainers in the water. He originally came into captivity in a facility in Victoria, a place called Sealand and they never did any in-water work with any of their orcas and so Tilikum when he was very young was never habituated to the presence of trainers in the water with him.
Then when he killed a trainer while there - he`s been involved in the deaths of two other people -
BEHAR: That`s right.
ROSE: And when he was sold to SeaWorld after Sealand had to close due the, you know, to the scandal of that incident, they, of course, didn`t do any in-water work with him after that either. He had become a dangerous animal if you will.
BEHAR: I think that this SeaWorld -- this whole circus, so to speak, makes a lot of money because when the accident occurred I was reading that they had 200 people in the audience. But the day that they went back to showing the whales they had 2 2,000 people so obviously, you know, it`s a moneymaking operation. I think it`s going to be an uphill climb to get this changed.
ROSE: I think that`s absolutely right. I would hope that the public pressure -- that`s the only thing that`s going to work here. If the public starts seeing the -- what`s so inappropriate about keeping such a large animal in such a small space and the unnatural proximity of people to these animals is what`s led to this horrible incident. You know, no killer whale, no orca has ever attacked, injured or killed a person in the wild.
BEHAR: Yes, okay, but, you know, I have to go but really kind of a sad story. And thanks very much -
ROSE: Thank you so much for having me.
BEHAR: For joining me.
ROSE: Thank you.
BEHAR: Switching gears the fallout continues from comments made by ESPN`S Tony Kornheiser about his fellow ESPN anchor Hannah Storm. He is now suspended for two weeks for saying the following. This is what he said, quote "Hannah Storm is in a horrifying, horrifying outfit today. She`s got on red go-go boots and a Catholic school plaid skirt, way too short for somebody in her 40`s" so were the comments sexist or just stupid? Joining me are television personality and sports caster Pat O`brien, former anchor for CBS "The Early Show" and author of "Good Enough Mother" Rene Syler and TV news executive former EP of "The Good Morning America" and "The Early Show", Shelley Ross. Okay, all of you, what do you think about his comments, I`ll start with you Rene.
RENE SYLER, FMR. ANCHOR, CBS "THE EARLY SHOW": Well I think he was doing what he has been hired to do which is to sort of stir the pot. Were they crass, yes. I think they were crass. I think that if that`s what he wanted to say - and I also don`t think he was right to demean or deface somebody he works with.
BEHAR: Uh huh, well that`s what -
SYLER: I think that was the issue that ESPN -
BEHAR: That is - that is the issue at ESPN but, Pat, you worked in sports, did his comments surprise you or is this just de rigueur for sports media.
PAT O`BRIEN, FORMER SPORTSCASTER: Although I look at that oufit that Tony Kornheiser has on - in that picture.
BEHAR: I know.
O`BRIEN: By the way Joy, your outfit is not horrifying today, you always look beautiful.
BEHAR: Thank you.
O`BRIEN: No I think it was a matter of being stupid. Look, we`re talking about Tony Kornheiser here, not Brian Williams, Bob Costas or Edward R. Murrow. It`s Tony Kornheiser and you`re right. This is what he`s hired to do. And I`m sure, I mean I`m sure now he wants those remarks back but you know when you`re on the radio that long. And by the way, these are all men dominated radio shows. You know, I was on the way over here today and I heard them talking, a couple of guys, couple of jerks actually talking about Danica Patrick and they`re saying Godaddy girl and I wonder if she wants to sleep with me and all that kind of stuff. It`s men dominating talk radio. And that`s what you get.
BEHAR: Uh huh, why do you think this caused such a stir, Shelley.
SHELLEY ROSS, TELEVISION NEWS EXECUTIVE: It was stupid and sexist and I think it has to do with the environment. There`s Howard Stern, you know it`s raunchy when you`re invited -- when you`re there. It`s like being at a dinner party. You know what your company is. You know who your audience is. I don`t think Kornheiser has that kind of show. It`s not the drive time. It`s not I want to sleep with that race car driver. She`s hot. He has -- he`s smart. He`s clever. He`s sophisticated and it was inappropriate. But really stupid.
BEHAR: You know, one of the newspapers this morning, I won`t mention the name of it because they attacked me a little bit but I was accused of treating men like sex objects because they -- this person said that in one episode on "The View" I touched Zac Efron`s hair and I also offered myself to George Clooney whenever he`s available and I told President Obama he was very sexy one time before he ran for president so do you think that what I did is as bad as Kornheiser?
ROSS: No.
BEHAR: This person put it in the same category.
ROSS: It`s not. That`s my dinner party metaphor. When we watch "The View" we know you girls are raunchy. We know somebody is going to have a hand on a knee. You know Hugh Jackman is going to come out and you`re going to tease him to take his shirt off.
BEHAR: Yes.
ROSS: Your guests know it and your audience knows it. That`s what you tune in for and if you`re politically correct and don`t like it you don`t watch "The View." people who tune in for that - that`s what they want.
BEHAR: I mean I made a fool of myself over Benicio Del Toro. I`ll tell you right now.
ROSS: I would have too, actually.
BEHAR: But to me that`s just being playful when you are in front, you know, playing around and, Pat, isn`t it true that men love it when women do it to them?
O`BRIEN: I`m not sure I like the wording of that question. Right off the bat. But, yeah, I`ve been on "The View." I love the adoration I get from the women of "The View." and Shelley is right, it`s your demographic. You know exactly who`s watching your show. You know those women, if they are sitting next to Hugh Jackman, they want to put their arms around him, as well. And you know Howard Stern knows exactly who his audience is -
BEHAR: Well maybe Kornheiser does too. Maybe he does too.
O`BRIEN: Well he knows his audience -- I think that Tony -- there might be something else about this too. You know, ESPN is very HR aware these days and I`m sure that there might be something else going on. Not that Tony has done anything wrong but a lot of sensitivity at ESPN. But I`m sure it was just said offhand, looked it he screen and said I have a tie that looks like the jut fit that Hannah was wearing and I kind of like it and I was going to wear it today but I thought it would be too much as a side joke.
BEHAR: Well skip that tie.
O`BRIEN: I`m sure they won`t mind - that stupid thing.
BEHAR: Shelley, you want to say something because I was reading that you have a phrase. You called a -- you have a phrase called sister killers. What does that mean?
ROSS: Right, that was a different part of sexism in the media.
BEHAR: What does it mean.
ROSS: It really to me -- it`s -- those are the women who were there the generation before who maybe want to be the only women in the boardroom. Maybe the only women in the newsroom and maybe this columnist suddenly, you know, she`s not taking a female feminist side, again, the comments about Hannah Storm who we both worked with, are really I think subconsciously they detract from the fact that she is a really great sports reporter.
BEHAR: Right and what about the ageism let`s listen to the conversation and the outfit is inappropriate for a woman in her 40s or 50s? Come on.
SYLER: Well I do think ESPN perhaps mishandled this. I think Hannah -- we know Hannah. Hannah is quite capable of taking care of herself. She is smart and she has an amazing body and she can take care of herself.
BEHAR: Right.
SYLER: And so I think for ESPN to suspend him, you know, I don`t know. I feel like maybe that was pulling a fly with a cannon.
BEHAR: Okay. Thank you, everybody. I ran out of time.
SYLER: Okay.
BEHAR: Up next, some hot top picks with the fabulous Isaac Mizrahi.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Isaac Mizrahi is not just a designer, he`s a raconteur, a man about town and bon vivant and he has brought some of his bon vivant-ness here to dish some dirt. Isaac Mizrahi joins me now.
ISAAC MIZRAHI, FASHION DESIGNER: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: Hi. I mean not dirt really -
MIRAHI: No.
BEHAR: But more your opinions on stuff. I mean, the Olympics had a lot of some wacky costumes. I wanted your take on it.
MIZRAHI: It did.
BEHAR: Like Johnny Weir was the Olympic skater.
MIZRAHI: Johnny Weir.
BEHAR: He`s going to be on the show tomorrow, by the way.
MIZRAHI: I think he`s fabulous by the way. Johnny Weir, fabulous.
BEHAR: But he was criticized for looking too gay, I`m putting - in --
MIZRAHI: Wait a second and who is worried about someone looking too gay these is days?
BEHAR: Well, I think it`s sort of like -- it`s considered in some circles a slur to say that`s so gay or you look too gay.
MIZRAHI: I think -- you know it`s like people worry about their kids would want to be figure skaters or something like that. Guess what, guess what?
BEHAR: What.
MIZRAHI: I don`t think a role model for them can be too gay because they`re gay already.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MIZRAHI: If your kid is interested in figure skating, gay. I`m sorry about that.
BEHAR: It`s so facto --
MIZRAHI: No, it`s true, it`s like if your son is interested in being a fashion designer, too late. Right. Figure skater, fashion designer, what other professions arethere that --
BEHAR: But when they`re talking about the wardrobe -
MIZRAHI: Uh huh.
BEHAR: I consider it a compliment when he say he`s too gay unless it`s over the top. I don`t know.
MIZRAHI: Right, well by the way there are gay women too. What`s that? What was that shot? Is that Johnny Weir?
BEHAR: Johnny --
MIZRAHI: In tiny panty? I never saw that. I didn`t see it - that is a little too gay. I have to say.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Okay.
MIZRAHI: That is just a little bit too gay.
BEHAR: All right.
MIZRAHI: Yes.
BEHAR: All right let`s move on to the bobsledder, the latex on the bobsledder.
MIZRAHI: Okay. I love --
BEHAR: He`s a little bit of a hefty bobsledder.
MIZRAHI: But that`s if you have - if you are like if you`re like a sizist. You know what I mean? If you have like size -- if you think people who are fat are not cute, then you worry about fat people in latex. I think fat people are just as cute as skinny people --
BEHAR: But when they`re going fast it`s like a condom going 90 miles per hour. It looks a little --
MIZRAHI: But it also makes the thing go faster if they`re fat, right.
BEHAR: What you mean because of the weight drags it down.
MIZRAHI: Yes, it pulls the luge, it pulls sort of the bobsled.
BEHAR: I guess so.
MIZRAHI: Seriously but you know what, I think nowadays, like there`s nobody who is normal weight. You`re either underweight in you`re in Hollywood and an actress, or whatever.
BEHAR: Right.
MIZRAHI: Way underweight and everybody is scared you`re going to perish or something. Or you are huge and can`t get up in the morning, you can`t get out of bed in the morning? Do you know what I mean?
BEHAR: Well, yes, that`s true.
MIZRAHI: Both of those right now fashionably are the polar things that we`re looking at. Like it`s fabulously way overweight or it is fabulous to be like way under weight and nobody think it`s cute anymore.
BEHAR: Who is fabulously way overweight?
MIZRAHI: Oh I don`t know, that girl in "Precious."
BEHAR: Oh Sidibe -- Gauborie
MIZRAHI: There are a few out there that are huge and cute, I think.
BEHAR: Uh huh well, she`s cute, that Sidibe girl.
MIZRAHI: She`s cute.
BEHAR: I think she`s cute too.
MIZRAHI: I mean I can`t think off the top of my head. But give me time.
BEHAR: There`s not that many. I have news for you. I mean really it`s not exactly --
MIZRAHI: Gertrude Stein was gorgeous and huge.
BEHAR: If you like a woman who looks like a man?
MIZRAHI: I do sometimes. It depends on the woman who looks like a man --
BEHAR: Which is worse a woman who looks like a woman or man who looks like a woman?
MIZRAHI: Which is worse? What a second, qualify that for a second --
BEHAR: In terms of couture?
MIZRAHI: I don`t know. There isn`t anything bad anymore.
BEHAR: I happen to like a -- not butch. I don`t know. Like Katherine Hepburnish, I like that in a woman.
MIZRAHI: Me too. I do too.
BEHAR: What`s her name has that -
MIZRAHI: Who?
BEHAR: That girl in Orlando, what`s here name?
MIZRAHI: Who, I don`t know?
BEHAR: The one who played Orlando. What`s her name?
MIZRAHI: Oh, oh, Tilda Swinton.
BEHAR: Tilda Swinton.
MIZRAHI: There a lot of models now -
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: Who are sort of androgynous like that who I love.
BEHAR: Androgynous, but don`t you think Kate Moss is too skinny? I saw a picture of her. She`s too thin.
MIZRAHI: I haven`t seen her in a long time. There`s a lot of girls who are thin but a whole bunch of models who look right to me. You know, they don`t look --
BEHAR: Like who?
MIZRAHI: I`m happy to say. There is a girl called Katherine O`neal who is I big girl and she just doesn`t care.
BEHAR: She doesn`t care?
MIZRAHI: She loses bookings because she gains weight and I think that`s fabulous. There is a girl who is Doubtson, who is pesky and gorgeous -- just healthy beautiful girl.
BEHAR: So you don`t have to be skinny anymore to be a model.
MIZRAHI: Well, no, you don`t. You don`t have to be skinny. Are you thinking -- it`s a little, what --
BEHAR: Me?
MIZRAHI: Off the topic because you can`t really speak as much as you speak if you`re a model. See, I`m trying to like catch up with myself. You talk too much for a model.
BEHAR: I do talk too much. I think too much maybe too but the girls who are models they need to center themselves out there because I think it`s hard work.
MIZRAHI: Yes, you`re absolutely right.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: It`s also - it`s hard work to be the right kind of presence. You know it`s like if you are too much then you don`t belong showing clothes and if you`re not enough no one is looking. They look through you. You have to be just enough to be a model.
BEHAR: Okay, what do you think about Lady Ga-Ga`s thing. She`s got lots of costumes.
MIZRAHI: I love her. I love Lady Ga-Ga, don`t you?
BEHAR: Yes. She`s a very talented girl.
MIZRAHI: I also love how dark she is. She is very, very dark if you listen to the word miss her songs, right. She`s dark and scary and just what we need, obviously or else we wouldn`t make her this huge giant star, you know.
BEHAR: Well it seems to me that today`s act`s stars and music stars have to have talent and have to have a look?
MIZRAHI: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s a whole package, you know. I don`t think Barbara Streisand who had a look -
MIZRAHI: Yes, she did.
BEHAR: But she didn`t have a crazy look, she just had her own look.
MIZRAHI: You know if you want to go back to Lady Ga-Ga for a second. I think that maybe now as we go forward, her face will emerge more. I need to know what she actually looks like.
BEHAR: Well she`s always covering her face.
MIZRAHI: You know at this point she could be sending people out to do the Lady Ga-Ga thing while lounging at home. Seriously it could be a like a lot of Lady Ga-Ga stand-ins.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: Well, I think we need to see her face a little more. I would like to see her actual face.
BEHAR: Uh huh, I would too.
MIZRAHI: I want to scrub that girl a little bit. But I do love and adore Lady Ga-Ga.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: I think she`s significant and fabulous.
BEHAR: But you know what I don`t think she really needs all the stuff around her. I think she`s good enough.
MIZRAHI: It works. You know what, it works, it works, it works. It works.
BEHAR: So much work.
MIZRAHI: It works and it`s work but I think we are fascinated by it but I would just line to see a little bit of bare bones kind of to see a little bare bones, let`s say an acoustical flavor.
BEHAR: Okay now you decide Michelle Obama`s dress for the State of the Union.
MIZRAHI: Uh huh.
BEHAR: Was that a challenge for you to design the first lady`s state of the union address?
MIZRAHI: Well let me just say one thing. You know like, I didn`t design that dress for the first lady. She picked it from the things she worked with different stylists and she shops and loves clothes and she`s worn my clothes before and it`s the greatest, greatest compliment.
BEHAR: Compliment.
MIZRAHI: And honestly I was very pleased with what she looked like that night. And I thought that she looked perfectly -- how can I put this? Bipartisan or something?
BEHAR: She looked bipartisan?
MIZRAHI: She looked like she was reaching across the aisle in that dress. How does that grab you?
BEHAR: Okay, it grabs me. I don`t know if it looked bipartisan.
MIZRAHI: It looks kind of purple, which is a good color for one thing.
BEHAR: Purple is neither red nor blue, oh isn`t that clever.
MIZRAHI: You see what I`m saying -
BEHAR: Yes, I got you.
MIZRAHI: That`s the new - like you can`t - that`s the new word for purple, bipartisan.
BEHAR: I love that.
MIZRAHI: Like it`s not french fries. Not purple. Right?
BEHAR: Okay. Don`t go away. I want to ask you about Susan Boyle. I want to ask you about her and her look. We`ll be back with more with Isaac Mizrahi.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the fabulous fashion designer Isaac Mizrahi. Isaac, what do you think about plastic surgery in the industry?
MIZRAHI: Well, I am not a plastic surgery fan. I`ve said it before and I`ve taken a lot of flack for saying it. But I find it like -- well, first of all, people who have plastic surgery who expect that they are putting one over on me --
BEHAR: No, they are not.
MIZRAHI: Right, I mean, you walk into a room. You know. That`s done, this is done, this is done. And, remember, a long time ago I had this thing with a model who I cast in my fashion show. And she came in and it was like, when did she become, you know, a triple d cup.
BEHAR: Oh that`s not a pleasant --
MIZRAHI: Yes well and she had that kind of plastic surgery.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: And she said, and after the fitting, which I kind of did and refit everything, she took me aside and she said, I have a little something to tell you, a secret to tell you. A secret. You are going to tell me that you went from like being the flatted chested girl to being extremely big chested. So I thought it was like a slap in the face. Sometimes I take it as an offensive thing. I don`t want to see that. I think it`s much more interesting to see people age.
BEHAR: Naturally?
MIZRAHI: Naturally.
BEHAR: Good luck with that.
MIZRAHI: I know, good luck. You know, honestly, I guess I have my work cut out for me.
BEHAR: Well, I would never get plastic surgery but I believe a couple of Botox shots.
MIZRAHI: So you have Botox shots?
BEHAR: Yes, of course. You have to get these frowning lines out because you look like you are frowning.
MIZRAHI: No, you`re right, you`re right, and they say that if you Botox that and you stop frowning.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: You will feel less frowning and more happy, that`s what they say about this --
BEHAR: Yes, and anyway Botox is now indicated for migraines headaches, I read recently, so --
MIZRAHI: But I think it`s poison. I`m sorry I`m going to go on the record. But I think if you do that to your face - it`s poison.
BEHAR: Yes, whatever.
MIZRAHI: And that to your body, I don`t I find that massaganistic.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MIZRAHI: I just don`t like implants and things like that.
BEHAR: Okay let`s talk about Susan Boyle. She`s on the cover of "People" magazine talking about the pressure of fame. The woman came into the business looking like she did. As we recall. And that`s why I think she caused such a stir.
MIZRAHI: Yes, right.
BEHAR: I think that if she were beautiful, she might not have. And now they`re trying to fix her. What do you think about all of that?
MIZRAHI: Well I mean, can I just really level with you?
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: I don`t find her singing that terrific. Is that a terrible thing to say?
BEHAR: Not at all.
MIZRAHI: I would care more about what she looked like if I loved her singing. I don`t love her singing. I thought it was ordinary. That`s not what you`re supposed to say about Susan Boyle, you`re suppose to say oh hooray for her. You know.
BEHAR: Say whatever you want.
MIZRAHI: I`m sorry - I don`t have to say hooray for her.
BEHAR: This is a different show, we don`t like being politically correct here. Somebody wants to know on Twitter if you were going to give me a makeover, where would you start?
MIZRAHI: A makeover, well, I love the way you look. You look exactly the same as you`ve looked for about 1,000 years, right.
BEHAR: And I`d like to thank Dr. Brant.
(LAUGHTER)
MIZRAHI: Yes, you look exactly the same. And I love a bar eyelash. You know what I would do?
BEHAR: A bar eyelash?
MIZRAHI: You have a little fake eyelash on top, right?
BEHAR: I do. Yes.
MIZRAHI: Right, maybe you want heavier bottom lashes. Add some mascara to the bottom lashes.
BEHAR: Oh, bottom lashes?
I don`t know if I could open my eyes. They are so heavy. What do you like about my outfit?
MIZRAHI: Well, it`s black.
BEHAR: It`s not Brazilian widow?
MIZRAHI: No, it`s just painting everything out. You just want to paint it out so this is important -
BEHAR: That`s true.
MIZRAHI: Seriously, you do. You have the headlights.
BEHAR: Got the headlights. Yes. Thank you so much Isaac for coming on the show.
MIZRAHI: Thank you.
BEHAR: I really appreciate it. And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
