Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Kids in the Control Tower; Interview With `Son of Hamas` Author
Aired March 04, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, his father founded the Palestinian militant group Hamas. He worked as a spy for the Israeli government. Talk about a child rebelling against the parent. This does not make for a pleasant Father`s Day.
Then an air traffic controller is suspended after letting his children direct flights. And you thought all you had to worry about was a kid kicking your seat in coach.
And "Project Runway" guru Tim Gunn joins me. The man knows everything about everything when it comes to fashion. Maybe he can tell us why Naomi Campbell is so pissed off all the time.
That and more right now.
So apparently it was take your child to workday at New York`s Kennedy airport and a veteran air traffic controller let his son take several turns directing air traffic. We`re now learning he took his daughter to work the very next day.
Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jet Blue 57, contact New York departure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jet Blue 57, thank you, good day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is the next generation of air traffic control going here.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: The FAA has suspended air traffic -- the airport`s traffic controller as well as his supervisor. And I believe both children were given a time-out. So could this have resulted in a catastrophe? Or is the FAA making a big deal out of nothing?
Joining me now is Fred Tecce, former federal prosecutor and aviation law attorney as well as a commercial pilot; and Jim Hall, former chairman of the NTSB which we rely on very heavily.
Let me start with you, Fred. Was this as dangerous as it sounds?
FRED TECCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND AVIATION LAW ATTORNEY: Actually, Joy, this was really kind of a stupid move on their part, because I think what they did is they undermined the public`s confidence in the system, which is a very, very good system. You know, as a pilot and as air traffic controllers, we`re taught to think what if, what if, what if. We always worry about what`s going to happen.
And I`ve been through this scenario in this particular case. And irrespective of a catastrophic failure of an airplane, there was never any danger, because the air traffic controller never relinquished any control. He was standing there the entire time watching over what was going on.
BEHAR: I know but Jim, you`ve been inside these control towers. Is it normal for people to bring their children?
JIM HALL, FORMER CHAIRMAN, NTSB: Well, certainly not. And it`s a serious breach of the professional discipline that you would expect in a tower. And the most concerning to me is the fact that this was not self- reported and obviously there were a number of individuals that were aware of this conduct and it`s a very poor reflection on the safety culture at the Kennedy tower.
BEHAR: Jim, why did it take so long to find this out? Maybe it even happened before and nobody ever knew.
TECCE: Oh, it`s happened a lot.
BEHAR: Why do you think it`s taken so long, Jim?
HALL: I really don`t know. If this is a conduct that has been going on in that tower, then it is a serious -- a more serious safety problem than Fred suggests.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s something like how the police they say have a blue wall of silence and all that.
TECCE: Right.
BEHAR: Maybe, you know, when you work with these people, you say, "I`m not going to let this go out." It`s not -- as you say it`s not a big deal.
TECCE: I`ve heard it on the radio. I`ve heard this. This is not the first time this has happened. I can tell you it`s the last.
What the flying public needs to understand is that these are very dangerous jobs and these people are very professional. And the controllers at Kennedy are like the Yankees. I mean these guys are the best of the best and you heard them when that flight went down the Hudson, you heard them instantly drop -- hop into control.
But it`s not like that every second. That`s what people have to understand. And there is time --
BEHAR: I know. But you`re a pilot.
TECCE: Yes.
BEHAR: Would you let your son do this? Would you let your kid sit on your lap while you`re driving?
TECCE: Joy, my 8-year-old sits in the right front seat of my airplane and if it`s a quiet day he talks to air traffic control. I`ve done it.
I`m going to tell you right now. I`m not going to let them do something stupid.
And the other side of the equation on this thing is that the pilots in those airplanes heard something from that kid that they thought was inappropriate, the first thing they`d say is "unable" or "say again" and then the father would step right in.
BEHAR: Jim, what do you make of a pilot that would let his son sit in the cockpit like he said? What do you think of that?
HALL: Well, let`s keep it -- we`ll keep it to the issue that`s being discussed right now.
BEHAR: All right. The actions of this controller and the supervisor, I think the FAA administrator has taken the appropriate action in their suspension. They need to investigate. If this is an action that has happened before or is -- in any way a reflection of the culture of how that tower has operated, I am concerned.
BEHAR: Wasn`t there an incident that one of you knew, I think it was you, Jim, about some Russian pilot who --
(CROSSTALK)
HALL: While I was chairman in 1994, we had an aerial flight accident that occurred with the individual having a child sit in the seat while he was flying the aircraft. There was an inadvertent deployment of the slats, I believe, which crashed the aircraft.
You know, I`m a father and a grandfather. I love my children. But you know in a professional workplace --
BEHAR: Hello. We love our children but not on our lap in an airplane.
HALL: In a professional workplace -- if that`s a distraction, it was a boneheaded move.
BEHAR: I`m sorry. I got to cut you off. We`re all done. I`m sure you had much more to say.
TECCE: I`ve got a lot of different things.
BEHAR: Thank you, both. We`ll be back in 60 seconds to discuss what happened when Snooki and the gang visited "The Tonight Show".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ok. Now let`s go from the ridiculous to the more ridiculous. The cast of "Jersey Shore" paid a visit to "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno" last night. I knew it was them because I recognized them from the ticket line at the Metropolitan Opera.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": It is the title of this novel by J.D. Salinger, "The Catcher in the" -- Snooki?
SNOOKI: Closet.
LENO: Pauley, who is this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s Joan Rivers.
LENO: Which one is Joan Rivers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the right.
LENO: Jay Wow, who is this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jackie Chan.
LENO: This is third in line to the presidency? Right now that person would be a woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sarah Palin.
LENO: Sarah Palin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Brilliant. Joining me now is comedian Rich Vos and "Extra" correspondent Carlos Diaz. Welcome to the show you guys.
Should we be disturbed that the "Jersey Shore" kids are on television more than say, Bill Moyers?
RICH VOS, COMEDIAN: Well, first of all everybody knows that third in line is Charlie Rangel, ok? We all know that.
BEHAR: For what?
VOS: When they start getting more air time than Hitler, then there`s a problem.
BEHAR: Why are they so popular?
VOS: They got two minutes left of their 15. It`s because of Andy Warhol. They had 15 minutes and they have two left. You know what I mean?
BEHAR: Do you agree with that Carlos?
CARLOS DIAZ, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": I think they got a little bit longer than two. I think they`ve got another season upcoming on MTV. I think they`ve got about 5 or 10 minutes left.
But you know what? The reason they`re so popular is because they make us feel good about ourselves. If you watched that last night on Jay Leno, you`re like, "Oh, I know it`s the Speaker of the House. I know the answer to that, it`s "Catcher in the Rye." They make you feel good that even though you`re a C student you`re still smarter than they are.
BEHAR: Tell that to George Bush.
VOS: They`re playing the role of dumb people.
DIAZ: No, no. I`ve met them, I`ve met them.
BEHAR: This is for real.
VOS: Do you think they`re that dumb? No one can be that dumb.
BEHAR: Why? Of course they can. To not know who is next in line for the presidency?
VOS: Jackie Chan?
BEHAR: Jackie Chan? That might have been a put on.
All right. Let`s talk about Jay. Jay Leno`s show -- he`s back in the saddle. Jay Leno is now up in the numbers against Letterman. Wasn`t it interesting, that experiment?
VOS: You know, the fact that he`s up in the numbers; it`s the first week, ok? It`s like a relationship. The first week is great. Let`s see if he could sustain in three, four months, you know what I mean?
And even if he does, the executives will find a way to ruin it.
BEHAR: That`s possible.
VOS: Let`s put him on in the morning.
BEHAR: I just find it fascinating, Carlos, that a time slot is so urgent, you know?
DIAZ: Well, you know what? Jay`s got a great week though, he`s coming off the Olympics. And by the way, no one was rooting for the Olympic hockey team -- the U.S. Olympic hockey team than Jay Leno. I mean he was praying that they would win so that they could all come in on his show on Monday.
But you know, you have the Oscars coming up this weekend so you have a lot of stars in Hollywood right now. And he had Sarah Palin, someone that David Letterman could never book, you know. So he`s had a great list of stars this week, he`s riding a wave of momentum. Let`s see how it goes next week and the week after.
BEHAR: Let`s see.
How do you think Sarah Palin did? She just did stand up.
VOS: It`s weak. First of all, she didn`t do stand up. She did a two-minute monologue that was written for her.
BEHAR: Right.
VOS: It`s really aggravating and undermining saying that she did standup. I`ve been doing this for 27 years.
BEHAR: I know.
VOS: It`s not easy. Ok, you cannot --
BEHAR: See -- all the stand ups get really pissed at this.
VOS: Well, because people at home think they could do it, well, look, if she can do it, I can do it. The guy at the docks --
BEHAR: Yes.
VOS: You can load trucks and you can`t do standup.
BEHAR: Right.
VOS: There`s -- there`s a handful of good comics --
BEHAR: Yes.
VOS: -- and there`s -- you know, me and a few other great comics. What I`m -- no if she comes out and it really makes it trivial.
BEHAR: I know.
VOS: To -- to you know -- because it follow a guy that lights himself on fire. Go on stage --
BEHAR: Yes.
VOS: -- when they`re paying your bills.
BEHAR: Right, exactly.
VOS: All right and not only that, it`s not even just being I say, sit at home and worry is my gig going to get cancelled this week, can I pay my mortgage? It`s the most -- it`s the toughest most unstable business.
BEHAR: Exactly. Leave it to the professionals.
VOS: Yes.
BEHAR: I don`t go around in a taxi --
VOS: Yes.
BEHAR: -- shooting wolves.
VOS: And no one says, no one says, hey, you know what, I`m -- that`s funny. I`m a doctor, you know, I`m just going to stitch this one up.
BEHAR: Yes.
VOS: You know? What --
BEHAR: Ok, all right, let`s just wrap this up with Conan a little bit now. Because Conan has been Twittering and he wrote, "I had a show, then I had a different show. Now I have a Twitter account." Is he depressed?
VOS: Are you --
BEHAR: Carlos, let`s hear Carlos talk, Carlos what do you think?
DIAZ: And then, you know what? Conan shouldn`t be depressed, ok. Because he`s going to go to Fox, he`s going to go someplace. He`s a hot commodity right now. He got a huge severance. I`m tire of being sorry for Conan because come fall, Conan will be the hottest commodity on TV.
BEHAR: Really.
DIAZ: And you know what, he is funny, he is funny, he just had --
BEHAR: Right.
DIAZ: -- the wrong audience here in L.A.
BEHAR: Ok.
DIAZ: He was a funny guy.
BEHAR: I also think that -- I heard rumor that he`s going to do a live stage show.
Thank you, guys for joining me. You can catch Rich Vos performing at "Mohegan Son`s Saturday Night" a good gig.
Up next, I`ll talk to the son of a Hamas founder about why he betrayed the organization to spy for Israel. Can you believe this story?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Spying for Israel and helping them kill members of the Islamic militant group Hamas sounds pretty dangerous all by itself. But for Mosab Hassan Yousef, whose father is a founding member of Hamas, doing just that has made him a marked man.
Some say he should keep silent but he`s got a story to tell, in this book, "Son of Hamas". Mosab welcome to the show.
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF, AUTHOR, "SON OF HAMAS": Thank you.
BEHAR: You`re welcome. Now, I`m a little nervous that you`re here. I haven`t been this nervous about a guest --
YOUSEF: I don`t blame you.
BEHAR: -- in the building.
I mean, since maybe Steven Baldwin. That was the last time. He`s a little scary, too. But it`s not that you`re scary, it`s just that you know -- you got a fatwa probably on your head, no?
YOUSEF: I guarantee you that I don`t.
BEHAR: You do not have a fatwa?
YOUSEF: No.
BEHAR: Because you know, Salman Rushdie had a fatwa in his head and he couldn`t go anywhere because he wrote something about Allah and they didn`t like that in the other side.
YOUSEF: Yes, if they like it and they don`t like it it`s in their books. And maybe they don`t understand their God, I can help them to understand their God.
BEHAR: You can. All right, but you turned away from Hamas to spy for Israel, right? I mean, it`s a big jump. It`s not exactly like switching from Macy`s to Saks. It`s a big commitment that you made.
YOUSEF: Ok, let`s have it -- let`s have it -- let`s have it in a different word here.
BEHAR: Ok.
YOUSEF: It wasn`t spying.
BEHAR: It wasn`t spying?
YOUSEF: It was simply a side bomber hidden to kill the civilians and I made a phone call.
BEHAR: You made a phone call because you knew that there was bomb hidden to kill civilians.
YOUSEF: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
YOUSEF: If you were in my shoes, what would you do?
BEHAR: Oh, I don`t want to be in your shoes.
YOUSEF: Nobody wants.
BEHAR: But -- I mean, that just a -- it`s a hard question. If I knew that something was going to happen, I would definitely intervene.
YOUSEF: Ok.
BEHAR: That how I am too.
YOUSEF: This is what I want to do.
BEHAR: Yes. The only thing is that -- so did you helped -- you helped mostly on the Israeli side, though and that`s what`s making your father so mad. He`s disowned you now and the people in Hamas are furious with you.
YOUSEF: Yes, it wasn`t only helping the Israelis. You know, a human life is valuable to me as a Christian no matter what the nationality or the race.
BEHAR: So your father must be ticked off that you became a Christian on top of everything.
YOUSEF: Yes, everything is -- in other words, I crossed all the red lines.
BEHAR: You crossed all the red lines and --
YOUSEF: But I am happy about this, because crossing the red lines and destroying those walls, I opened the gates for many people to express themselves and try to make the change.
BEHAR: How did you become such a defender of Israel, though? You must have been raised to hate Israel, right?
YOUSEF: Yes. And I am not a pro-Israeli.
BEHAR: You`re not pro-Israeli?
YOUSEF: No. I`m not pro Israeli, I`m not pro Palestinian.
BEHAR: Right.
YOUSEF: I look at the picture from above, the same way that God sees it.
BEHAR: Ok, all right.
But tell me some of the things that you`ve thwarted besides you just mentioned one. What else have you done?
YOUSEF: One of my goals and when you read the book that I didn`t try to be a James Bond or I didn`t try to be a hero, while we did all these things, practically. But what I can say that it didn`t matter to me if it was the Israeli president or a child in Gaza Strip.
BEHAR: I see.
YOUSEF: Whenever I got the chance to stop the killing of anybody. I caught a big cell that was responsible for killing the Americans in the Hebrew University.
BEHAR: Really.
YOUSEF: And the U.S. government didn`t come and ask me for help. Those were Americans, not the Palestinians, not the Israelis. And we got their killers and today they are behind the bars.
BEHAR: I see. So you`ll help whoever needs help? Whoever needs the help, you will go there?
YOUSEF: When I can help and I absolutely --
BEHAR: Well, according to your book, you say -- it says that you stopped former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon from killing Hamas members but you also saved the life of current President Shimon Perez, so that is the equal opportunity savior you are, yes?
YOUSEF: I`m not saying that I`m a savior --
BEHAR: Well, I was --
YOUSEF: You know this is what I`m commanded --
BEHAR: I was -- as a Christian, I`m a Christian too. I would not say the words --
YOUSEF: A Christian and a Jew?
BEHAR: No I`m not. No, no.
YOUSEF: Ok.
BEHAR: Say that was -- why do you think I`m Jewish?
YOUSEF: No, I thought you said, I only marry a Jewish man.
BEHAR: During the commercial I said I only like Jew. I only marry Jewish men but I`m not Jewish.
YOUSEF: Ok, all right. Ok, then, my fault.
BEHAR: Yes, all right.
Your father wouldn`t hurt an insect you say, yet he won`t denounce suicide bombing. What if the insect is Jewish?
YOUSEF: Oh, he -- like -- simply this is how sometimes they get involved in killing humans and they don`t know that they are participating in this process. And participating in killing others is not something only by shooting or blowing up a bomb, sometimes with encouraging the suicide bombers or giving them a cover.
So my father is very responsible, you can say that he has a moral responsibility as most Palestinians. They have moral responsibility to give a cover for suicide bombers.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t get that. I don`t get that. He knows that it`s --
YOUSEF: He`s responsible.
BEHAR: -- innocent people that are being killed through these suicide bombings.
YOUSEF: Yes.
BEHAR: I don`t care for that at all. Your father is a leader of Hamas, yes?
YOUSEF: Yes, he is a leader in Hamas. But I`m not saying he`s not responsible. I`m telling you he`s responsible, but the problem they don`t see themselves as terrorists. They work for the highest authority in their lives, the God of the Koran.
BEHAR: I see. Being a terrorist is a relative idea, I think. Some people think they`re the enemy. Some people think they`re not. You know?
We have more to talk about Mosab. So stay right there.
We`ll be right back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Mosab Hassan Yousef, his new book "Son of Hamas" details his years as a spy with Israeli security forces.
Ok. Where are you now? Where are you living now?
YOUSEF: I live in California.
BEHAR: Why California?
YOUSEF: I came first to California, had a couple of friends and since then I`m in California.
BEHAR: Aren`t you afraid to b e around in the world? I`d be scared if I were you.
YOUSEF: My life has been in danger all the time, you know. What`s the worst they can do? Anything can happen.
BEHAR: Kill you. They can kill you.
YOUSEF: To be honest with you, I feel scared riding my motorcycle 120 miles-per-hour than being hunted by a terrorist.
BEHAR: I know. But you can control that. You don`t have to ride the motorcycle.
YOUSEF: Yes, but here`s the thing. If they don`t use faster than my motorcycle, let them try to catch me.
BEHAR: Ok. Are you married?
YOUSEF: I am not married.
BEHAR: Do you have sisters, brothers?
YOUSEF: I do have sisters and brothers but unfortunately, they don`t talk to me anymore.
BEHAR: They don`t talk to you. It must be lonely for you. Who do you hang out with now?
YOUSEF: I am alone but I am not lonely.
BEHAR: Who are your friends? You have a lot of friends, I take it.
YOUSEF: I have millions of supporters around the world, brothers and sisters and families who are very supportive especially in America.
BEHAR: Yes but when you`re feeling like really down and out, who do you call?
YOUSEF: Do I look to you that I feel down?
BEHAR: No, you don`t, as a matter of fact. You don`t. You look pretty happy with yourself, because I think that you feel as though you`ve accomplished so much in the sense that on both sides of the aisle, you have been instrumental in saving people. So I guess you feel good about yourself, right?
YOUSEF: I don`t feel self-righteous and all the glory goes to my Lord. I didn`t do it because I was a very smart or a special man. I did what I believed in, at least I have peace. Is it stressful, is it dangerous? It is. But I have lots of peace.
BEHAR: Do you feel -- what made you become a Christian?
YOUSEF: One verse of the Bible.
BEHAR: Which was?
YOUSEF: Love your enemy.
BEHAR: Love your enemy?
YOUSEF: Yes.
BEHAR: Really? Is that in the Bible? I didn`t even know that.
But you know, I was raised Catholic, we had a missal; I never saw a bible until I was in a hotel. It`s true. The Gideon bible is always in the hotels in America. You know what I`m saying?
You`re going to be -- you`re not going to be a spy anymore, is that what I`m hearing? You`re done with that.
YOUSEF: I`m done working with governments. Because I believe, you know, I love intelligence and it`s addictive job, by the way.
BEHAR: It is? Why? Why is it addictive?
YOUSEF: You can ask someone else, because I have to explain that. It`s very interesting job and the thrill of it. And it`s powerful.
BEHAR: So you got off on the thrill of it. It`s like you`re a thrill seeker in a way?
YOUSEF: This is why I have a motorcycle now.
BEHAR: The motorcycle. Oh that keeps the thrills going.
YOUSEF: It`s giving me like a different type of thrill.
BEHAR: I see. But when you get older, what are you going to do for a thrill?
YOUSEF: Isn`t this like, do I have to talk about when I get older?
BEHAR: How old are you now?
YOUSEF: I`m 32.
BEHAR: Oh, yes. You`re too young. You`re way too young.
I really do wish you luck because I think that you did a very interesting thing by writing this book.
YOUSEF: Thank you.
BEHAR: I was happy to have you on the show.
YOUSEF: Thank you very much. Thank you.
BEHAR: Thank you for doing it. And good luck with whatever it is that you`re going to do next.
YOUSEF: Thank you very much.
BEHAR: The book is called "Son of Hamas". It is fascinating. Mosab, thank you very much. I said that already.
Up next, I`ll have a roundup of all the latest political scandals. Now this is something less exciting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Here`s a shocker. There`s a new GOP fund-raising presentation that uses scare tactics and ridicule to raise money. The cartoon shows Obama as the joker, Nancy Pelosi as Cruella Deville, which they misspelled by the way, and Harry Reid as Scooby-doo. Joining me now are David Frum, former speechwriter to President Bush and editor of frumforme.com, Steve Kornacki, News Editor and Columnist at Salon.com -- is it?
STEVE KORNACKI, SALON.COM: Salon.
BEHAR: Yes and Harry Shearer, the actor and satirist behind the new CD "Greed and Fear." Okay Steve, does this prove Republicans only rely on scare tactics?
KORNACKI: Yes, what`s funny is this actually confirms everything they`ve been denying for the last, well I would say two years, probably going back a lot further than that. They`re saying, you know, we`re not the party of no, we`re not trying to conjure fear about Obama. You know blah, blah, blah. You know but if you look closely at this slide show presentation, I mean the entire thing -
BEHAR: Yes.
KORNACKI: Is kind of comical and offensive. But if you look closely they sort of have this division between high-end donors, the top dollars, you know, sort of upper class. And then the rest, the direct male crowd. That`s the masses, those are the people they rely on to get votes to the polls. And when you look at how they target their appeal to the direct male crowd.
BEHAR: Right.
KORNACKI: They`re explicitly talking about how to raise fear among these people. The symbols of the messages that work --
BEHAR: So this is something that is flipped out somehow and they`ve been outed. Okay.
KORNACKI: And when you look at all the messages that come out of Washington, they are when you decode them geared toward accomplishing exactly what this slide show lays out.
BEHAR: And over the save the country from socialism, that`s one of the talking points. David, let me ask you, is this childish and manipulative or is it nasty and fear mongering?
DAVID FRUM, FMR. SPEECHWRITER FOR PRES. BUSH: Are those my only two choices?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yes go ahead but think of another one if you want.
FRUM: Look, this is an internal document, it`s something that political people show to themselves. And it shows that there is a lot of gallows humor in the political world. This is not the way they`re talking to the donors, this is the way they`re talking to themselves. And I think that one of the things that shows you, by the way, is that there`s -- they`ve got some perspective on it. Look, I sometimes give money to political candidates myself. And I also do like tchotchkes. Which is one of the things they say that motivates us.
BEHAR: Yes.
FRUM: The high value donor. It`s true. The --
BEHAR: Yes the thing that they`re saying is they are ego driven and they love tchotchkes. That`s a very insulting thing to say to people - you want money from?
FRUM: Yes except you know it sort of has the ring of somebody who is in that group that sometimes has a little bit of the ring of the group too. But this is -- look, do you think the Democratic party fund-raising techniques look any different when they`re talking how do we raise money? We offer people pictures with the president and yes we mobilize our people`s fear of the other side.
BEHAR: Okay.
FRUM: The real story here is how amazingly successful the Republicans have been in raising money over the past year. And that is by the way attribute to the chairman Fields who has taken a lot of heat in the media.
BEHAR: Well you know with these kinds of things he`s leaking out this stuff maybe coming. What do you think about what he said? Either one of you? Harry?
HARRY SHEARER, ACTOR: I just think it -- for the moment at least, it suggests that the Republicans have strategy unlike the Democrats. You know, I think the Democrats have been playing a strong hand about as weakly as humanly possible and the Republicans have been playing a weak hand about as strongly as humanly possible.
BEHAR: That`s very well put, I think.
KORNACKI: It also speaks to how easy it is to be absolutely locked out of power. There`s a slide in this presentation that says how do we sell a party that doesn`t have the White House, that doesn`t have the House and it doesn`t have the Senate. It`s actually pretty easy because you say we have no power. They`re trying to jam all this stuff down our throats and we can either -- there`s five different ways to oppose a bill, you can build a coalition very easily, with five completely different groups, and all have one reason for opposing the bill. It`s very easy to be the opposition.
SHEARER: And you don`t like tchotchkes?
BEHAR: I do like tchotchkes. I don`t think - it`s ego driven.
KORNACKI: Please give. We`ll give you - what does MPR do?
BEHAR: But we`re talking about this now.
KORNACKI: Okay.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: David, you know David it seems like the Republican party, I know that you`re a speechwriter and everything, but I think that a lot of times, this is just me now, the message is very simplistic all the time. As if the people that they`re appealing to are not bright enough to grasp a more, you know, --
KORNACKI: Nuanced -
BEHAR: Nuanced message.
FRUM: Well look, look, television, everything is simple if you`re talking to a big audience. But there are some simple truths right now. Which is -- this is a very distressed economy. President Obama made a big bet at the beginning of his administration about the methods that he thought would turn things around. He borrowed a lot of money. Nobody is saying the recession is his fault. Nobody is saying that he didn`t inherit it. But after 15 months you say $800 billion you said you would buy us this much of a reduction on unemployment and you would hold unemployment at about 8 percent, if we didn`t do what you said it might go to 10. We did what you said and it did go to 10. That is a simple message. It`s also true.
BEHAR: Okay go ahead.
KORNACKI: Yes, David correct me if I`m wrong, is the guy that came up with axis of evil back during the Bush Administration.
BEHAR: Yes, David, what was up with that, David?
KORNACKI: Yes, you know and we`re talking about simplistic message.
BEHAR: Yes.
FRUM: Well first of all, I won`t claim either credit or if you suggest blame, because in fact it was a team effort. But look that is a message --
BEHAR: You mean it took more than one to come up with that?
KORNACKI: It took a team to come up with that?
(CROSSTALK)
FRUM: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) evil. It was embedded in a big speech. But in fact, that -- those few words conveyed a lot of truth. In 2002, people did not know or believe that in fact Iran and North Korea were collaborating. Iran providing nuclear technology to the North Koreans --
(CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: This is how you sold the war.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHEARER: What they still don`t know is the country that was selling nuclear materials and know-how to both countries was Pakistan somehow left out of the axis.
BEHAR: Yes. And also, David, David - personally, I found that to be very provocative. Name calling does not work in diplomacy. I don`t give you a lot of points for that, sorry.
FRUM: Sometimes telling things like it is is important in diplomacy. Because if you deny reality and say the Iranians are our good pals, then you actually make very bad mistakes as we`re making now.
BEHAR: Okay let`s change the subject, Karl Rove got a new book it`s called "Courage And Consequence." I probably won`t read it, I`m more of a nonfiction person myself. In the book he cops to some minor mistakes made in the Bush Administration. Here`s one, Rove says that they probably wouldn`t have invaded Iraq if the President knew weapons of mass destruction did not exist. David, is that true or were we going to invade any way?
FRUM: Well I wouldn`t have supported the Iraq war if I didn`t think weapons of mass destruction were there. Then there would have been all the time in the world. Why not wait why go right away? It was because of that sense of urgency that was sincerely believed by the President, by me.
BEHAR: But the guy says a minor mistake. If that`s a minor mistake invading a country and killing people, what`s a major mistake to the Bush Administration?
FRUM: Well let`s remember that it was the insurgents in Iraq who did most of the killing. The United States was there and saving lives. But it was a war --
BEHAR: What?
FRUM: Well that`s true.
SHEARER: Let me just barge in here -
BEHAR: Go ahead.
SHEARER: There`s a story on the BBC Today that there is a new epidemic of birth defects in Fallujah that seem to have resulted in consequence of what the -- some of the armaments that the United States used.
BEHAR: Oh like the agent orange in Vietnam.
SHEARER: In the attack of the -- so that`s going to unschooling. So we weren`t just saving lives.
FRUM: That may be true or it maybe in part of the many, many maligned stories like the false report on the lands of the total number of Iraqi casualties. There`s been a lot of disinformation provided about this. And I`m afraid we`re talking about simplicity and complexity, that if we did as much work in the media cleaning up things that were reported that turned out not to be true, as spreading things in the first place that are true, we would do some good.
KORNACKI: Yes but at a very basic level, what Karl Rove is arguing is flatly disingenuous. That oh and I`m hearing a little bit of this in David`s defense right now too. There was an opportunity, there was plenty opportunity to learn what was actually going on in terms of the weapons situation in Iraq. You know, the knock on George W. Bush for his entire adult life, was that he lacked intellectual curiosity. He wasn`t really willing to really dive in and learn the facts of the situation.
BEHAR: All right -
KORNACKI: He governed from the gut.
BEHAR: Oh yes.
KORNACKI: That`s how he made a decision to go to war in Iraq. You know there was another bill in the United States senate, the day the Unite States senate voted, you know, under immense pressure, immense political pressure between Karl Rove and the Bush White House, the day the senate voted to go to war, there was another bill that would have allowed for more investigation, that would have allowed us to get to the bottom --
BEHAR: And what happened to the bill?
KORNACKI: It was killed - it was killed primarily by the Republicans but also by cowardly Democrats. But it was killed. And if the Bush Administration was as serious as Karl Rove suggests and as serious as David seems to be suggesting right now about getting to the bottom before we sent troops, American boys and girls over there, then they would have supported that bill and they didn`t.
BEHAR: Okay.
SHEARER: Can I just interpose one more thing?
BEHAR: One more thing and then I`m moving on.
SHEARER: Tom Daschle, the Democratic leader of the senate.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHEARER: Memorably said we want to get this Iraq thing off the table so we can talk about what Americans really want to talk about, prescription drugs for seniors. If Tom Daschle had stood up against that resolution, we might not be having this conversation.
BEHAR: Okay. Just to show that we`re fair and balanced around here -
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Let`s take a shot at a Democrat. New York Governor David Paterson. His career may implode because he scammed free tickets to a Yankees game. Adding to his troubles, his top spokesperson resigned today. Now Paterson claims he attended the first game of the World Series on unofficial business. Unless he`s playing shortstop, what official business did he have?
SHEARER: As far as I know, the seats were behind home plate and he was yelling to the umpires, you`re legally blind, too!
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: All right. You know, anybody, David, is this guy totally clueless? Why didn`t he just buy the tickets? I don`t understand this.
FRUM: Well look, I don`t understand the power of this accusation. If interfering in a domestic violence investigation -
BEHAR: Right.
FRUM: Is not a resignation offense, I don`t know why a few baseball tickets would be. I think we tend to focus on too much on the petty. The serious charges, the obstruction charge, that`s the thing New Yorkers need to get through. I would cut politicians a lot of slack on issues like where they sit, where they have this cocktail or that cocktail.
BEHAR: Right.
FRUM: I think that the focus is on what we can count, not what`s important.
BEHAR: Last words Steve.
KORNACKI: I agree with that. It does tie into the domestic violence case in this sense, the same aide you know who he was protecting, you know, with his pals, with his governors supposedly in the domestic violence case is the aide that he enlisted to basically shake down the New York Yankees for these tickets.
BEHAR: Right, I see.
KORNACKI: I guess it gives a bigger picture of how this guys govern.
BEHAR: I see, very interesting. Thanks you very much, gentlemen. And speaking of gentleman there`s a stylish and classy Tim Gunn joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: He mentors the designers on life time`s Project Runway giving them guidance and words of encouragement. Take a look at him in action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM GUNN, CHIEF CREATIVE OFFICER, LIZ CLAIBORNE INC.: What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m creating intergalactic macro may flapper something.
GUNN: What is it, a miniskirt, is it a bikini?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miniskirt.
GUNN: Do you have enough of the hardware?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope so.
GUNN: I don`t know. You may end up with a bikini.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here with me now is "Project Runway`s" mentor and chief creative officer at Liz Claiborne Tim Gunn. Welcome, Tim, to the show.
GUNN: Joy, I`m thrilled to be here with you.
BEHAR: Someone wanted me to ask you, do you have a fatwa on your head?
GUNN: I certainly hope not.
BEHAR: And does it have glitter? Okay, you know, before the show went on, you said it`s an optical illusion.
GUNN: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s not that big a studio but it looks big.
GUNN: Looks huge.
BEHAR: I said it`s like making a dress to make you look fat. But I was just thinking I had an outfit one time, by Isaac Mizrachi (ph), he has all those like -
GUNN: The pleats. Yes.
BEHAR: The pleats. And I did the Letterman show I think in those pleats and I looked slim when I was stand. Then when I sat down, the thing unpleated, and I looked humongous. How can you guard against something like that?
GUNN: I have many refrains. One is the more volume your clothes have, the more volume you will appear to have.
BEHAR: Yes.
GUNN: And that`s one of the dangers of pleats. In one position, you look long and lean, and then in another position you look wide and sprayed.
BEHAR: It`s like an accordion. All right.
GUNN: Exactly. Exactly.
BEHAR: All right, tell me how you got to be on "Project Runway." How did that happen?
GUNN: You know, Joy it`s the most serendipitous kind of story. And no one is more surprised by it than I. The producers were looking for a consultant, someone from the fashion industry to consult with. And people had mentioned my name because of the work I had achieved as chair of the department of fashion design as Parsons. And I`ll tell you I was reluctant to meet with them. I thought, fashion reality, this industry doesn`t need that, we`re in enough trouble.
BEHAR: So you were an academic?
GUNN: For 29 years, yes.
BEHAR: You were teaching at the Parsons Hall.
GUNN: 24 years at Parsons.
BEHAR: And what were you teaching?
GUNN: Oh, everything from three-dimensional design to concept development for fashion, singers to design history, art history, many different things.
BEHAR: So they found you there?
GUNN: They found me there.
BEHAR: And wow.
GUNN: That`s how it all started. And at the time, my role on the show, was in no one`s vocabulary. It evolved.
BEHAR: Yes, so now the show is a huge hit.
GUNN: Thank you.
BEHAR: And you`re hanging out with Heidi Klum.
(LAUGHTER)
GUNN: I am.
BEHAR: And Naomi Campbell. What`s up with her any way? What is she so pissed off, do happen you know that?
GUNN: She is a conundrum for me, and one I think about as little as possible. I think it`s the case of the poor thing can`t help herself, this recent incident where she hit her driver?
BEHAR: Yes.
GUNN: I mean duh. Don`t hit someone who is driving a moving vehicle.
BEHAR: Duh!
GUNN: Yes. I mean how crazy is that.
BEHAR: Do you think these models are angry because they`re starving to death? It`s possible. I would really be raging if I was hungry.
GUNN: The last time I saw Naomi, she didn`t look like she was starving to death.
BEHAR: Oh, hello. You`ll be the next one she`ll be hitting if you keep that up. Being a mentor on "Project Runway", that brings you back to teaching.
GUNN: Oh yes, it does -- absolutely.
BEHAR: Yes, and so you must enjoy that.
GUNN: I love it. The one difference between working with the designers on "Project Runway" and working with my students is, with my students I can say to them, you may not do this. And with the designers, I have to ask, are you sure you want to do this?
BEHAR: Oh yes.
GUNN: Because I can`t tell them what to do.
BEHAR: No, no, no, you have to be careful. They`re very touchy anyway. Now let`s talk about the Oscars for a minute.
GUNN: Okay.
BEHAR: Okay, they`re going to be on this Sunday. What are you going to be looking forward to on the red carpet? Is there anyone in particular that --
GUNN: You know, I have to tell you, I look forward to seeing the stars who have maturity and experience. People who have really earned that place.
BEHAR: Like Meryl Streep.
GUNN: Like Meryl Streep, exactly.
BEHAR: Yes, she`s the perfect person.
GUNN: She`s absolutely wonderful. And Cate Blanchett I put into a similar category.
BEHAR: Talented Helen Mirren-
GUNN: Helen Mirren is in my view, always fabulous. In fact two Oscars ago, I thought she had the most beautiful dress. There it is on the screen, the most beautiful dress of the entire night. And not only that, she was the most glamorous start of the night. Because for me I can`t extract the clothes from who is wearing them. Exactly.
BEHAR: And from the talent too.
GUNN: Precisely.
BEHAR: Like a no-talent, you don`t care what they`re wearing.
GUNN: No.
BEHAR: Yes, it`s true. Do any of the celebrities call you ahead of time to ask what they should wear?
GUNN: No, and I`m glad they don`t.
BEHAR: No, no one has ever done it?
GUNN: No one`s ever done it and I don`t want them to because I can never make someone into my dress-up doll. I mean I would want them -- I mean I would do a consultation providing it`s with them but never just say oh, wear x. How do you know? It`s all about silhouette, proportion, and fit and coloring. And until you try it on, you don`t know.
BEHAR: No I was reading that you are not a fan of the Kardashian look.
GUNN: Oh, Joy, who is? I mean, who is? I mean who is?
BEHAR: Well, why don`t you tell us why. What don`t you like about it?
GUNN: I find that it`s -- it may have some sexiness to it, it`s largely vulgar. I find that it has a cheapness and a tardiness now I have to worry about the Kardashian sisters attacking me with Naomi Campbell.
BEHAR: I know. They`ll be another fatwa on your head with the Kardashians.
GUNN: And I`m not exactly a fan of how they navigate the world, to be perfectly honest.
BEHAR: Oh really, they`re kind of fun though, I mean I had them on the show, I mean I liked them. I don`t really know what they`re wear or don`t wear. That`s the point.
GUNN: Were they well dressed on your show.
BEHAR: I think she was pretty -- Kim looked all right that day.
GUNN: Okay. All right.
BEHAR: She`s pretty girl. Looks a little like Cher.
GUNN: She is a pretty but she is a poser. I find that when she is static and still, she has an attractiveness. I find that when she`s moving it all goes away for me, at least.
BEHAR: Okay Tim don`t go anywhere. I have some Twitter questions for you, people out there have questions.
GUNN: Okay.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Tim Gunn from "Project Runway." so tell me, you have a contest you are launching for the heartbreak of psoriasis. Tim, tell me about it.
GUNN: Well Joy I`ll tell you, the heartbreak of psoriasis if one isn`t seeking work with a dermatologist to manage their condition.
BEHAR: It can be dealt with nowadays, can`t it?
GUNN: There is no cure for psoriasis.
BEHAR: Really?
GUNN: It is a disease of the immune system it manifests itself on the skin and it is a serious disease.
BEHAR: Yes.
GUNN: And anyone who has it or thinks they have it should go to a dermatologist and manage their treatment. We have a wonderful contest it is for people with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis it is our address your psoriasis contest and the five win letters win a consultation with me, a personal style consultation. And people can learn more by going to our website, address psoriasis.com where they can also learn style tips.
BEHAR: They will put it on the thing.
GUNN: Excellent.
BEHAR: Yes, we`ll put it.
GUNN: But they are inspiring stories there and I`m thrilled to be partnering with Amgen and Pfizer for the second year in a row because there are 7.5 million people in this nation alone who have psoriasis. And we find from our research that the number one impact that this disease has for them is their fashion.
BEHAR: Really.
GUNN: Yes because they tend to -
BEHAR: It`s itchy isn`t it?
GUNN: And painful.
BEHAR: Painful. Yes.
GUNN: And scaly.
BEHAR: Yes.
GUNN: Flakes. But by managing your condition, by working with a dermatologist, you can mitigate all that and wear whatever you want.
BEHAR: That is good to know.
GUNN: It is wonderful.
BEHAR: Okay. Very good. Now, I have some twitter questions for you.
GUNN: Uh-oh.
BEHAR: Okay. First question. We had Johnny Weir on the show the other night.
GUNN: Oh.
BEHAR: The poor guy criticized for being too gay, they say? Do you think he is too gay, someone wants to know?
GUNN: I do think he is too gay?
BEHAR: He is an ice skater, let`s keep that in mind.
GUNN: Exactly. Well, also -- are they talking about his clothing or talking about his personal assets?
BEHAR: I think it`s his costumes and --
GUNN: But it`s ice skating, as you just said. What is gayer than figure skating, period?
BEHAR: That is what he said practically. Okay. I wonder -- I always wonder, this person says if Tim is in a relationship, with whom and for how long. He is quite a catch.
GUNN: Oh.
BEHAR: And a respectable role model for young gay men.
GUNN: Well that is a very lovely and I am flattered. Tim has not been in a relationship for 28 years.
BEHAR: How come?
GUNN: I was badly hurt and I still feel the ache of that hurt, if you can believe it.
BEHAR: 28 years later?
GUNN: It was very, very bad. And every time I even consider -- remotely consider something --
BEHAR: You`re phobic about it now.
GUNN: I am, I`m phobic.
BEHAR: Well, you can deal with that in therapy, Tim.
GUNN: Well, I actually tried and I have to say what I`ve come to terms with, is being very comfortable in being alone and some people say that is so selfish of you, but to be honest, I don`t have a lot of free time and, in fact, I have precious little and a relationship requires time.
BEHAR: So, you don`t miss it?
GUNN: No.
BEHAR: Okay. All right. This one says irk wonder if he is always so proper all the time, not to be rude but he just seems like he is over proper.
GUNN: Like I`m a big stick in the mud?
BEHAR: No you are not. I can vouch for that.
GUNN: Um, I`m cognizant of the fact it`s important we navigate the world with respect and with --
BEHAR: Manners.
GUNN: It comes from teaching there are enough times could I have blown up my entire classroom and thrown my students right out the window.
BEHAR: See there is a fatwa on you. Okay. One more thing and then we are going to go, one tip for the full-figured woman, somebody wants to know?
GUNN: Easy. The key to getting your fashion right are three elements that need to be in harmony and balance, silhouette, proportion, and fit.
BEHAR: Okay.
GUNN: That`s it.
BEHAR: Thank you very much. Very much, Tim, for joining me.
GUNN: Thank you.
BEHAR: And don`t forget to catch Tim Gunn on "Project Runway" Thursdays on lifetime. Good night, everybody.
END
