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Joy Behar Page
Is Sandra Bullock Getting a Divorce?; President Obama Signs Health Care Reform Into Law
Aired March 23, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, while Sandra Bullock and husband Jesse James reportedly lawyer up, wedding photos of Nazi fetishist Michelle McGee turn up. And trust me, not many women could pull off a wedding dress with jackboots.
Then President Obama used 20 pens to sign the health care bill? Why? Because he`s a socialist and wanted each pen to have the same amount of ink. That`s why.
And Dog, the bounty hunter hunts down and captures some of the most dangerous people in America. Could somebody please give him Michele Bachmann`s home address?
That and more right now.
So, Sandra Bullock has canceled another Red Carpet appearance. This time for the Berlin premiere of "The Blind Side", as she decides on the next step she`ll take after her husband goose-stepped out with his tattooed lady. Will that include a divorce from her bad boy husband?
Joining me now to discuss are Lauren Sanchez, weekend host of "Extra"; Mary Jo Eustace, author of "Divorce Sucks"; and Noel Biderman, founder and president of AshleyMadison.com, an extra-marital dating site which I do not approve.
Ok. Just let`s get that out here.
MARY JO EUSTACE, AUTHOR, "DIVORCE SUCKS": Neither do I.
LAUREN SANCHEZ, WEEKEND HOST, "EXTRA": Me, neither.
BEHAR: All right.
NOEL BIDERMAN, FOUNDER, ASHLEYMADISON.COM: I approve, though.
BEHAR: Yes, we know you do.
I raked him over the coals on "The View". This is not going to be any easier, Noel.
BIDERMAN: Fair enough Joy.
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s start with you, Lauren. What`s the latest with Sandra? Where is she?
UF2: Well, you know what? The new Sandra bombshell today is allegations that Michelle McGee wasn`t the first woman Jesse cheated with, and it was open secret at his shop that he was cheating. So that`s the first thing.
And one report claiming she`s interviewing attorneys preparing for, you know, a divorce war with Jesse. But today her rep is saying that is completely false. We do not know over at "Extra" whether Jesse is looking at attorneys, but Sandra`s people say no, that is completely false. That is not true.
BEHAR: Oh, really.
SANCHEZ: So that`s what we have right now.
BEHAR: I see. Ok.
Just for clarification though for people out there who don`t know. Was Jesse still married or separated from his second wife when Sandra started seeing him?
SANCHEZ: Yes, he was still married, separated and going through the divorce process. So they were not together at the time. However, she was pregnant. So you have to remember Sandra has known Jesse`s child, Sonny, since she was born.
So yes, he was married, but they were going through the divorce process. She did not cause the divorce if that`s what you`re asking.
BEHAR: No. I`m just -- just to clarify. His second wife, Noel, her name is Janine Linda Molder (ph) --
BIDERMAN: Correct.
BEHAR: She`s a porn star. She was pregnant when they started dating but they had already split up.
So from all indications, it seems Sandra was surprised by this behavior -- should she have been surprised?
BIDERMAN: No, definitely not. I mean, I think, the question we should be asking is what man is faithful today in America? We look at the good boys, Tiger Woods with his pristine image, and clearly he strayed. Politicians are straying all the time. And then the so-called bad boys, like Jesse, are also unfaithful.
I mean I have 5 million members of men in the middle you know.
BEHAR: Five million members?
BIDERMAN: Five million members. People who are just taking the subway to work and they`re your neighbors. And so this is a prevalent -- who really in this day and age is faithful? I think that`s the question you really have to ask.
BEHAR: Mary Jo, what do you have to say to that?
EUSTACE: Well, you know, I love -- you girls on "The View" talk about this a lot. Right?
BEHAR: Yes, we do.
EUSTACE: The whole thing and Whoopi really makes a real point of this. And she says that if a man was happy, he wouldn`t stray from his relationship. He wouldn`t leave, he wouldn`t fool around.
And I`ve always taken umbrage with that.
BEHAR: I agree with you.
EUSTACE: Because I think that --
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: Yes, I think that -- you know, here`s the analogy I use -- if a tree falls in the forest, does it really fall? If a man cheats and he can get away with it, will he? I absolutely think that he will.
And I think it`s really insulting to these women, I mean Sandra Bullock -- I mean how humiliating and terrible for her at the pinnacle of her career that she was totally blind-sided by this.
And I believe it can completely happen. That men -- if they have the opportunity to cheat, I really believe that they probably will.
BEHAR: You know, it`s --
SANCHEZ: Well, that`s what --
BEHAR: Go ahead, Lauren. Go ahead.
SANCHEZ: That`s what Chris Rock always used to say in his jokes. He`s like, "Listen, men are as faithful as their options." I think that for a lot of men, yes that`s true. But you can`t just go saying like blanketly that all men, you know, will cheat on their wives. I don`t think that`s true.
I do think that there`s some really good men out there. Come on, guys.
EUSTACE: Well, I do. I think there`s some good men there, too. But I mean obviously, there are wonderful men there, but does it really come down to a biological difference?
I mean for men, you know, sex is so different than women. They can compartmentalize this experience. What they don`t get is when they`re unfaithful for that thrill or that ego boost, the trust and betrayal to the people they love is so huge. There seems to be a total disconnect that they don`t get, but men and women are so fundamentally different in this area -- I think.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, in this case -- in this case, Noel, it`s like she`s a good girl going for a bad boy.
BIDERMAN: Right.
BEHAR: But he likes a bad girl and a good girl.
BIDERMAN: Yes, I think it`s obvious --
BEHAR: He`s such a hog.
BIDERMAN: No, no. But I think that`s -- I think men, it`s not just about the absence of intimacy. I think that`s true. It`s also the kind of intimacy. So vanilla just doesn`t cut it. If they think that there`s other things out there that they haven`t sampled, they want to play in the field as well.
BEHAR: I like the word sampled. As if it`s like --
BIDERMAN: Sampled.
EUSTACE: Yes.
BIDERMAN: No, but that is -- you have to sort of understand the mentality. I think Mary Jo hit on it. There`s a DNA difference going on here and so for them it is like that.
BEHAR: Not all men have that DNA difference.
BIDERMAN: All men are genetically engineered the same way which is it`s not in their genes to be monogamous. It`s a man-made construct (ph) and it doesn`t work for the vast majority of people.
SANCHEZ: Ok. This, coming from the man who has a Web site to help married men cheat.
BEHAR: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: Now, come on. I mean, really?
BIDERMAN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I don`t buy that it`s in their DNA. No, no, no.
BIDERMAN: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: Maybe you have been told that it`s in your DNA. Us as women could do the same thing. It`s completely -- I just don`t think -- I think either you`re a good guy or you`re not. It`s not in your DNA.
BIDERMAN: Infidelity has always been about opportunity, Joy. So now you`re see a huge growth in female infidelity because of the digital era. Because of Facebook, I think you know Jesse James connected with her on MySpace. It wasn`t on Ashley Madison where they met up with one another.
EUSTACE: But here`s an interesting question.
BIDERMAN: Once an opportunity is in front of women, they cheat as well. I`m not just saying that the DNA --
EUSTACE: But here`s an interesting question about this whole thing that I think is really, really interesting about, you know, the Jesse James of the world and the John Edwards and the Tiger Woods. They cheat with these women who are pretty vulnerable and unstable and are eventually going to come forward and give this information and sabotage their relationships.
I mean as men, do they want to be caught and to be forgiven? I mean it just seems --
BEHAR: Right. So, is stupidity also in their DNA?
EUSTACE: Yes.
BIDERMAN: I think part of it is -- yes -- lipstick on the collar --
EUSTACE: Thank you Joy. Thank you.
BEHAR: You`re welcome.
BIDERMAN: Lipstick on the collar in this era is this digital text messages. It`s these voice messages that you leave behind. And if they`re not careful enough, yes, you`re going to be discovered especially if you`re a famous person. That just seems to me to be ridiculous. It`s inevitable, yes.
BEHAR: Well, you`re not helping the situation, Noel, with your Web site. I mean you encourage it, really.
BIDERMAN: I don`t encourage it. I cannibalize it. It happens in the workplace. It happens on singles dating. It just happens all over the place. It happens with escorts. So I`m cannibalizing it --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s like saying somebody likes to eat, so let`s give them a side of beef.
BIDERMAN: But no, it`s about temptation, right.
SANCHEZ: That`s like saying, hey, kids are going to do drugs so give it to them.
BIDERMAN: No, I don`t think that`s a fair analogy.
EUSTACE: Well, he`s profiting off people`s misery essentially.
BIDERMAN: I think -- you know women in America right now are really angry. You know what they`re really angry with? They don`t know even how to act about this. So Tiger Woods -- they want to be angry and vilify him so they (INAUDIBLE) because he misled them, and yet his wife might come back to him.
And so where does that lead them? They don`t even know if they`d be angry with her for setting that kind of example or him. Wife after wife has stood by their man who`d behaved really badly in public and then forgiven him. Then there are the press conferences --
BEHAR: What made you so angry that you started this Web site?
BIDERMAN: No, it wasn`t about that. I`m a happily married man.
BEHAR: Why? Why are you so happy? Why isn`t it in your DNA? Are you an android?
BIDERMAN: It`s not in my DNA but I`m saying like everybody else trying to overcome it. For me I get the advantage of talking the topic of infidelity 24/7. So if anyone should succeed there, it should be me.
BEHAR: How come you don`t want to cheat?
BIDERMAN: Who says I don`t? Who says I don`t?
BEHAR: So what stops you? What stops you?
BIDERMAN: A good relationship with my partner.
BEHAR: So you`re saying Whoopi Goldberg -- you agree with Whoopi, then because Whoopi says that.
BIDERMAN: It`s all about good relationships with your partner.
BEHAR: What we`re saying and what I believe also is that any man could stray if there is opportunity that arises. He doesn`t have to -- he could be happy at home and he could still stray.
BIDERMAN: Yes. Temptation.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: This is the bottom line.
EUSTACE: I agree. Remember that movie "Fatal Attraction"?
(CROSSTALK)
EUSTACE: Do you remember "Fatal Attraction"?
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: And Michael Douglas is married to that cute little Anne Archer and they bought that house in Connecticut. And they had --
BEHAR: She was annoying.
EUSTACE: He has a great career.
BEHAR: That character was too good. See, there`s where I have to discuss this now. I`m glad you brought that up. When you`re too goody- goody, the husband gets bored with it, I think.
BIDERMAN: I have to tell you. When I watched the interview with Sandra Bullock just before the Oscars, I actually turned to my wife who watched with me and said, "She`s full of it." She`s too gushy-gushy about this guy, him being a rocker. There`s something going on in their relationship. I started to say the same thing. To me, it just wasn`t believable. I think she was overselling it.
BEHAR: You didn`t believe it.
BIDERMAN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: You don`t know what Sandra is like outside of, you know, her television persona, so you can`t say that. This guy loves bad girls.
BIDERMAN: I think couples all the time -- all the time couples project this kind of persona out in public that doesn`t really represent what goes on behind closed doors.
SANCHEZ: This is the bottom line. If a man is willing to give up his family -- if a man is willing to risk his family for another woman, then he should go. I mean that`s what their risking.
BIDERMAN: That`s not the real risk though. The majority of couples survive infidelity, so that`s not really the risk. For people to be successful in this world, you have to take a lot of risks: business risks and so when it comes to their personal life they`re willing to take that as well because everything is paid off for them. So why shouldn`t this also pay off for them.
BEHAR: All right. What should women do? You`re the expert on this. What should we do?
BIDERMAN: I think we should de-emphasize sex and monogamy as an essential tenet in our marriage. If we look at countries like France and Japan, women tend to treat infidelity very differently than we do in America. They tend to look at it --
BEHAR: Why?
BIDERMAN: I don`t even know all the details, it kind of happens but do we still want to raise our kids here? Do we still love one another?
SANCHEZ: So basically you just want us to be a little more passive and just lay down and be like, "Ok, go ahead cheat on whoever." Give me a break. Like, why get married?
BIDERMAN: I don`t know if it`s about passive. I want to de-emphasize monogamy. I think it`s dead.
(CROSSTALK)
EUSTACE: But Ashley Madison guy.
BEHAR: Monogamy is dead?
EUSTACE: Marriage was initially, you know, an act of commerce. You got married to get a cow, right. I mean, it really was a dowry.
BIDERMAN: Yes women were chattel, correct they were handed over.
SANCHEZ: But that was way back when there was a lot of things that we don`t do anymore like we use to do back in Stone Age.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: One at a time. Yes. One at a time.
BIDERMAN: At one point in time, marriage was by arrangement. At another point in time, people got married because premarital sex was taboo. And so they wanted to have their first sexual liaison. Now we married for love and one of the repercussions of that, Joy, is that we have a ton of divorce in America.
We have to say is part of that reason that we have all this divorce because of the sexual tension we create?
BEHAR: I don`t think Americans --
(CROSSTALK)
EUSTACE: I think it`s the Americans that complicate it.
BEHAR: I don`t think Americans can handle that European model you`re been talking about.
BIDERMAN: It`s going to take time.
BEHAR: Were too puritanical in this country.
BIDERMAN: Correct, I agree with you. I agree with you.
BEHAR: And also we`re very -- people are jealous. They get very jealous, and we have too many handguns. Ok.
SANCHEZ: And sexual tension isn`t the only reason people get divorced. I mean, come on it`s not the only reason.
EUSTACE: And it`s more complicated than that. But I think, if we look at Sandra Bullock, she`s a really powerful woman. She got married to this guy in her 40s, very mature, she`s finally found love. And what`s sort of being suggested in the press now which is really abhorrent is that she was too successful --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
EUSTACE: -- that that`s why he did this.
BEHAR: Well, that`s a whole other discussion --
SANCHEZ: I mean you can`t win.
BEHAR: -- about the male ego.
But thank you all very much for a lively discussion.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It was a historic day as President Obama signed health care reform into law, but up next, I`ll tell you why his fight has just begun. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, a new report says Michael Jackson`s doctor may have stopped CPR on Jackson to try and cover his tracks. And Duane Dog Chapman and his wife Deb stop by to talk about Dog`s controversial new book.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: President Obama signed the historic health care legislation today, and Vice President Joe Biden was quick to congratulate him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States of America, Barack Obama. This is a big (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I can`t believe Joe Biden called the health bill a big f- ing deal, but I think he has a big (EXPLETIVE DELETED) point to tell you the truth.
Here to discuss the historic legislation are David Frum, former speechwriter for President Bush and editor of FrumForum.com and Roy Sekoff, founding editor of the HuffingtonPost.com.
So Roy, let me start with you. The health care reform has been on the table since Theodore Roosevelt. This is a big deal, isn`t it?
ROY SEKOFF, HUFFINGTONPOST.COM: This is a big deal. And Joy, I`ve got to say, I think Biden`s use the f-word was a lot better than his predecessor who went on to the floor of the Senate and told Patrick Leahy go "f" yourself. So I think he at least had a more positive spirit than Mr. Cheney did.
So yes, it is a big deal.
BEHAR: Ok.
SEKOFF: It`s a flawed bill; there`s a lot of problems but it`s still a big step forward.
BEHAR: Ok, David, who do you think is responsible for getting the thing done? Was it Nancy Pelosi?
DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: I don`t -- I think it was a lot of people. It was a combination of the recession; I think it was also the combination of the disarray in the Republican ranks that allowed a lot of very bad strategic decisions to be made on the Republican side.
BEHAR: A lot of people are giving Pelosi credit for the bill. So listen to the part of her interview on ABC News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIANE SAWYER, ABC HOST: The economists said that you are arguably the most powerful woman in American history.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE SPEAKER: That sounds good. I don`t take it personally except I take it as a compliment for all women because as the first woman Speaker I certainly wanted to demonstrate that we could get a job done that has eluded others for a century.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: David, is she the most powerful woman in U.S. history?
FRUM: I don`t know how you come up with a metric to measure that. But she has a claim.
BEHAR: I think she might be up there.
David, there was a CBS poll that Pelosi has 11 percent favorability rating. So Roy, how much does it have to do with the fact that she`s a woman, that she has such a low favorability rating? Is it at all --
SEKOFF: No, I mean --
BEHAR: -- a factor?
SEKOFF: -- well, first of all, I thought Oprah was the most powerful woman in America then the girls from "The View", right?
BEHAR: Right.
SEKOFF: I thought that was one-two combination. But you know, I don`t think it`s that she`s a woman. I think that, you know, it`s been a very contentious sign, people have a very low opinion of Congress, but that`s changing now, Joy.
They like -- the American people like to see things get done. And the fact that the Democrats were able to get this thing done, you`ll see the opinions changing rather radically on this, I think.
BEHAR: You know if you go to GOP.com, there`s the page that`s urging the firing of Pelosi. Can you see this? Look at this. It`s like this fire around her.
It`s kind of a volatile edge, don`t you think, David? With this plus the "baby killer" comments, the booze for Obama, the inciting TEA partiers, is the GOP inciting terror?
FRUM: I think you have to separate out what is fair, typical political comment and what is not. I don`t know that I have a complete library of Democratic National Committee advertisements against George W. Bush. I`m sure they are pretty inflammatory. That -- that Nancy Pelosi ad strikes me as very much business as usual.
What I would worry about is not that Republicans are too angry against Democrats. I worry about what`s happening between Republicans and Republican leadership and the way that the Republican leaders are trapped and constrained and are unable to do things that are in the long-term interests of the Republican Party as an institution and conservative values by the intense emotionalism of the Republican membership.
That`s our problem.
Of course, Republicans want to fire Nancy Pelosi. That`s what elections are for.
BEHAR: Yes, but do you think that the rhetoric is worse now than when Bush was president? Somebody said it was just as bad then. And I don`t think it was.
SEKOFF: I think it`s getting pretty ugly.
BEHAR: Go ahead, go ahead --
SEKOFF: Go ahead, David.
BEHAR: -- David -- and then Roy.
FRUM: Well, look, I don`t mean to trump on Roy, the rhetoric was very nasty in the Bush years. It`s true. And there`s -- the most famously that novel that somebody -- that was written by quite a respected person suggesting the assassination of President Bush.
We have been through a period of intensifying violence in the way we talk, probably since the middle 1990s. And talk radio has a lot to do with it on both sides; TV has a lot to do with it.
BEHAR: On both -- wait a second, I have to stop you there, David. There is no both sides on talk radio. Most of the inflammatory rhetoric is coming from the right and you know that.
FRUM: Let me say, most of the inflammatory stuff on the left comes from the Internet and from cable. You`re right.
BEHAR: Oh all right.
FRUM: The talk radio is the province of the right. But -- look, what we are having is a mutual separation of Americans into enclaves. Americans live more physically distinct lives, they live in different media cultures. They interact less, and you see this in the way Washington works.
Two generations ago, the leading members of Congress knew each other personally, they would have dinner together. That doesn`t happen anymore --
BEHAR: That`s gone.
FRUM: -- these people are strangers, strangers to one another.
BEHAR: Right.
FRUM: And that has had a real impact on the way the Congress works.
BEHAR: Now, they -- now they want to throw food at each other.
Ok, stay right there we have more when we comeback more. Roy, you`re going to get the first word. I promise.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing today`s signing of historic health care bill.
Let me start with you, Roy. You saw this, and you see this inciting sort of behavior going on. Is there going to be a backlash on the Republican Party in November because of this, or is it going to help them?
SEKOFF: No, I think there is. There`s this super heated thing. But the problem is Joy, there`s always been a fringe element in any party, but the lunatics have now taken over the asylum.
We`re seeing this kind of inflammatory rhetoric coming from the leaders. We have John Boehner saying that it`s going Armageddon. That`s like the little boy who cried Wolf Blitzer.
You know I think it`s going to be -- there`s going to definitely be some blow-back when people go, "Well, wait a minute, this isn`t socialism. This isn`t the government taking over my health care. In fact, I kind of like some elements of this." And I think we see that already.
So yes, I do expect that to be the case.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, 49 percent in the Gallup poll today -- 49 percent of people say that the passage was a good thing.
So what about the repealing in the fall? Do you think that`s going to happen if they get back into power, David? What`s going to happen? They`ve been threatening -- the GOP is threatening to repeal the bill.
FRUM: That`s preposterous. You can`t do that. First, the president has to sign a repeal measure. So unless you`re planning to impeach Barack Obama along with the repeal, you`re not going to have the signature. You need two-thirds -- I forget now the exact numbers -- you need in both bodies in order to override the veto.
But again, it`s inconceivable or mathematically impossible.
BEHAR: I don`t think the American people will go for it anyway. Do you? They`re not going to want to take -- to roll this back.
FRUM: Nor is it seriously meant. What the Republicans are saying today is repeal and replace. Because if you simply repeal, that means no more small business tax credit, that means that the seniors have to pay co- pays when they go to their Medicare checkups. That`s not going to happen.
So Republicans will have to come up with an alternative proposal. And the question I keep asking is, if you`re preparing to do that, why didn`t do you that last year when we could have offered the American people a competitive alternative, offered them something that they might have liked better and forced a Republican alternative through or for that matter why not do it in 2005 when Republicans had the majority?
SEKOFF: Well, or they --
BEHAR: Well, did they not do it back then because they were in bed with these TEA parties? It seems as though they`re identifying with the right wing of the party. They`re letting the Sarah Palins and the TEA partiers take over the party. Isn`t that true?
SEKOFF: But I love that they always -- Joy, they always act like, you know, this is something that`s brand new. I mean, if I recall George Bush and they had a majority from 2000 to 2005 like David said, and they didn`t have it. They`ve become this party against progress, the party of No. No ideas, no solutions, and there`s a lot of suffering going on out there.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that, David? Do you agree with that David?
FRUM: I think it`s actually worse than what Roy just said, because do we have ideas. We`ve had two outstandingly good ideas in the Republican Party in health care. One was what Governor Romney did in Massachusetts and the other was what Robert Bennett of Utah proposed in the Bennett-Wyden act. These were ideas very different but that both would work.
And both these men are now in trouble inside the Republican Party precisely because of the coherence of their health care ideas. So it isn`t just that there`re no ideas. It`s that when people actually stepped forward and generated them in Romney`s case very successfully raising insurance rates in Massachusetts to 97 percent of the population, they pay a price for their own success.
BEHAR: I see. That`s very interesting.
Thank you guys very much, Roy and David.
Up next Michael Jackson`s doctor is in trouble again. Find out why after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The latest allegations surrounding Michael Jackson`s death is that his personal doctor Conrad Murray wasted time cleaning up vials of drugs instead of continuing CPR as the superstar lay dying. Murray`s lawyer deny the accusation. With me now is chief correspondent with "Inside Edition" Jim Moret. Hey Jim, what do you know about Dr. Murray allegedly halting CPR to hide drug vials?
JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT "INSIDE EDITION": Well these are statements made by a witness, so one of the his bodyguards in the room when he was worked on. And this statement was made about two months after Michael Jackson died. The key here is it`s inconsistent with a statement this same person made to police the day after Michael Jackson -
BEHAR: Yes.
MORET: Passed away. But it`s a potential bombshell if the jury believes these statements that as you said Dr. Conrad Murray, before calling 911, was basically hiding evidence, hiding the Propofol vials and waiting to call 911 until all the evidence was gone.
BEHAR: But why would they believe the second statement on the witness and not the first statement?
MORET: Well, you know from the defense standpoint they are going to attack this guy. It is possible that he - it may not be inconsistent. It may be more complete. You know, when you have statements like this and this happens in almost every case.
BEHAR: Yes.
MORET: People`s recollections changes over time, and his credibility is going to come into focus. No question about it. We do know from Dr. Murray`s own statement that he didn`t call 911 for 20 to 30 minutes he says because he didn`t know the address of Michael Jackson`s house. Well that doesn`t make any sense at all. So it`s going to be up ultimately for a jury to decide who they believe.
BEHAR: That`s a bunch of baloney. The phone number appears and they can trace it. No, I don`t buy that at all. But how do these allegations affect the involuntary manslaughter case against Murray. Because that`s what he`s -
MORET: Well.
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
MORET: No you are right. And basically what this would prove if a jury believes it, they are going to look at these actions and say wait a minute if you`re hiding evidence then that`s consciousness of guilt. You know that you are hiding evidence because you are aware that a crime was committed. Certainly you have negligence which can be alleged in this case. You know, you can`t buy Propofol, you and I. You can`t give it to yourself. We know that it was given by a doctor, so that`s why the focus is on Conrad Murray. He was the guy in charge. He`s the guy who allegedly gave it to Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson is dead, so he`s the only guy to look at.
And if the jury sees this evidence and says wait a minute this guy knew what he was doing all along. He knew it was wrong and he`s trying to hide the evidence, it`s going to make the prosecution`s case that much stronger.
BEHAR: What about this claim that the two children were there? That Michael`s two children witnessed this CPR going on? What do you know about that?
MORET: We heard this earlier, Joy. We heard from the chef on duty that day that the children were called into the room. Now imagine this. Why, you ask, would a doctor want the kids to see this? Perhaps -- this is just a hypothetical -- perhaps the doctor would want them to see him trying to save their father so they could later testify the doctor was trying to save our father.
BEHAR: Oh.
MORET: But think about the horror, think about the horror in seeing Michael Jackson, your father, lying there being worked on? It`s awful to think about.
BEHAR: Okay. There`s one more thing. What about the witness`s claim that Murray wanted to remove some cream that Jackson had so, quote, "the world wouldn`t find out about it." What about that? What is that about?
MORET: Again, the prosecution will argue that Murray was telling - is telling this witness that so that Murray could say, look, I didn`t know everyone to know about Michael Jackson`s skin condition. I wanted to save him the embarrassment, when Conrad Murray is going back to take and get rid of evidence. That`s what the prosecution is going to allege, that he was concealing and then dumping evidence. That`s the allegation.
BEHAR: I see. Thank you very much, Jim, as always.
MORET: Sure.
BEHAR: We are now going from the king of pop to the king of the fairways, Tiger Woods. It seems Elin isn`t the only one who may dump him. P.R. guru and former Bush White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer has left team Tiger. Joining me to discuss this are Rob Shuter AOL`s "Popeater" columnist and comedian Carey Reilly.
Okay, what do you think about this idea that Ari Fleischer doesn`t want to front -- you`re a P.R. guy?
ROB SHUTER, AOL`S "POPEATER" COLUMNIST: It`s wild, it`s absolutely wild. Like Ari Fleischer can deal with all the troubles that George Bush has, but this is too much him.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: It just shows you the magnitude of the mess that Tiger`s really in. It`s a pretty wild thing to happen.
BEHAR: But he was fronting for the Bush administration. He`s the one that told America you know we have to go to war in Iraq, and yet this particular situation he can`t handle. Do you buy it? I don`t buy it.
CAREY REILLY, COMEDIAN: I don`t buy it one bit. What can`t he handle? I mean, Tiger couldn`t even handle it, I mean. That`s true. But if anything, you think he would take it as a big challenge and that he would just plow through with it and make it better for him. And he would be a big champion again.
SHUTER: Right. I mean it`s a fascinating -
REILLY: That`s normal for a PGA pro to have a bunch of girlfriends, right? Let`s spin it.
BEHAR: Yes but could it be that those racy sexting messages came out, and Ari Fleischer said I wouldn`t be part of this. Because how can you defend those? Did you read them?
REILLY: They were disgusting.
SHUTER: Right they`re pretty - vile
BEHAR: And yesterday I had on his girlfriend, one of the porn stars he was dating, Jocelyn James and asked her did Tiger Woods intend to do all those things to you or just to get you started? And she said, no, he intended to do all those things which is choking and hitting and golden showers, which is really --
SHUTER: Right, right.
REILLY: Yuck.
BEHAR: So disgusting.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: God, I mean it`s gross.
REILLY: But maybe it`s a character thing. Maybe his wife said you stay with him, and I`m out. Because he`s a dog. And I don`t want - the
SHUTER: I am thinking there`s so many troubled cases. There`s clearly something here. There`s a piece of the puzzle we don`t know about. What my sources are telling me is that he was pretty frustrated that he couldn`t get to Tiger, that he`s been talking to his managers.
BEHAR: Oh.
SHUTER: To Tiger`s agents, and he thinks if he really needs to get in here and fix it, he needs one on one time with Tiger, which I hear he hasn`t been having.
BEHAR: I see okay, well I`ll tell you one thing that Tiger`s team has done really well is they hired extra security to keep these hotties away from him.
SHUTER: Which is true, which is absolutely true.
(CROSSTALK)
REILLY: Where were they before?
BEHAR: In some big bed.
SHUTER: That`s a good question.
REILLY: I`m sorry Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
REILLY: Where were they before though?
BEHAR: You mean before he got caught?
REILLY: Yes. Before -- keep them away the whole time so he wouldn`t be in the whole mess.
BEHAR: No, no they are keeping him away so there`s no photo op.
SHUTER: Right the best thing for Tiger at the moment is not a deranged crazy fan. The security, the most damaging thing for Tiger -
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: Is to have his photograph taken with a beautiful blonde, and that could hurt him. So these security guards have been told to keep the women away. No women should be allowed near Tiger.
BEHAR: Keep them away.
SHUTER: It`s pretty smart.
REILLY: I have an idea.
BEHAR: What?
REILLY: Why not get a picture with your beautiful blonde wife? How about that?
BEHAR: Because she`s out of town. She moved to Sweden. That`s why.
REILLY: Then you get on a plane to Sweden and make it happen. I don`t buy it.
BEHAR: She read those text messages and she took off, too.
SHUTER: Good grief.
BEHAR: You can`t blame her.
REILLY: I don`t blame her.
BEHAR: Do you think she - she doesn`t want to -- it`s so gross.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: Let`s move on.
REILLY: Okay.
BEHAR: Last night was the premiere of "Dancing With The Stars." and it was a huge hit.
SHUTER: Oh I loved it.
BEHAR: Millions of people are watching with. And with all due respect astronaut Buzz Aldrin proved you can apparently walk on the moon even if you have two left feet on the dance floor, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Straight to my lover`s heart for me
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can I possibly criticize a hero and a legend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it looked like you still had your moon boots on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I don`t remember Bruno planting a flag on the moon, do you? All right the guy is a national hero. I mean, was he too rough on him?
SHUTER: I think he was too rough. I think that this is funny, it`s great. This is what people are watching these show for. We don`t necessarily want to see great dancers, we want to see people out there giving it their all.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: And I think he tried his hardest.
BEHAR: He did.
REILLY: And forget about being you know who he is, which is an astronaut, I you know -- he`s 80 years old.
BEHAR: Yes.
REILLY: I hope I`m not wetting my pants sitting at home clipping my toenails at 80 and he`s on the dance floor with a hot chick.
BEHAR: I know.
REILLY: He`s doing great. He`s doing great.
SHUTER: He should moon walk next week.
BEHAR: Yes, I know give him some credit.
REILLY: For crying out loud.
BEHAR: I think it`s cute he went out there.
SHUTER: Oh I loved it.
REILLY: I thought he was adorable.
BEHAR: Don`t you miss Tom Delay`s tush though? Judges were also harsh on Kate Gosselin. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There she can wait if she wants she`s ahead of her time
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay the technique was terrible, but you have to learn -- it`s true, it was terrible. You have to learn to perform a character, because it looked like Tony was pushing a shopping cart around the floor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Was that a fair critique?
SHUTER: Oh I think it was fair there. No but a friend of Kate`s told me that if she thinks she`s is going to be in the bottom two, except eight little faces to be sitting on the front row next week. She`s not going home. She`s going to win the he show.
REILLY: I disagree. I don`t want it`s fair at all. She had eight children. I have two, and I`m lucky I have deodorant on tonight, for real. And she`s sitting there -- she looks like a pin-up. She looks gorgeous. Who cares what she does.
SHUTER: You are right.
REILLY: She`s alive.
SHUTER: Right, my favorite -
BEHAR: That dress that you have in gypsy where the hooker comes out with the butterfly thing, it looks like that to me.
SHUTER: Yes, yes, yes.
REILLY: Or like in Stevie Nicks.
SHUTER: Right.
BEHAR: Yes, hey you know what the premiere drew a whooping 24 million viewers.
SHUTER: It`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: What is the appeal of this show. 34 million is a lot.
SHUTER: Everybody can watch this show, oh it`s a huge audience.
BEHAR: Okay the closest completion in that slot was "How I Met Your Mother" with 8.5 million.
SHUTER: Wow.
BEHAR: This is 24 million.
REILLY: For real?
BEHAR: Yes. What is it?
REILLY: I think that they want to see celebrities fall on their face. I personally don`t want to see people who are normal people who happen to be celebrities fall on their face because I`m embarrassed.
I`m nervous the whole time. But when you think you`re all that and you`re a hotshot and make so much money per movie, good, I hope you suck at dancing. I hope you go out there and lay an egg.
BEHAR: That`s very generous for you. And thank you so much for joining the conversation. Probably the truth.
Up next, I`ll be joined by Dog the bounty hunter and his wife, so don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: They capture bad guys for a living and along the way try to mentor some of them toward the straight and narrow. It`s captured on camera for their A&E series "Dog the Bounty Hunter." take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUAYNE DOG CHAPMAN, "WHERE MERCY IS SHOW, MERCY IS GIVEN:: Hey there. We got a warrant for your arrest. Come out with your hands in the air. If not we are coming out to get you sister. You ain`t going to like it. Here we go, guys.
BETH CHAPMAN: Let`s go, let`s go. Flashlights, 2 x 2, everybody.
D. CHAPMAN: She`s going to hide, you guys. She`s going to hide.
B. CHAPMAN: Careful now,
D. CHAPMAN: Leyland, watch it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining me is Duane "Dog" Chapman and with him is his co-star on TV and if his life also, Beth Chapman. Welcome to the show, guys.
D. CHAPMAN: Thank you, ma`am. Good to see you.
B. CHAPMAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Don`t -- it makes me feel so old when you call me ma`am. You did that last time too.
D. CHAPMAN: I`d call you sister, but I like respect.
BEHAR: Call me sister.
D. CHAPMAN: Thank you sister.
BEHAR: Okay, so before we go on you were talking about how you guys were in the tsunami or the one that was supposed to come to Hawaii.
D. CHAPMAN: The alleged tsunami.
BEHAR: Yes, tell me about that. What happened there?
D. CHAPMAN: We got warnings physically and -- animal or what`s the word?
B. CHAPMAN: Well nature, signs of nature, you know, the birds were leaving, the whales were gone.
BEHAR: Really? Wow.
B. CHAPMAN: the ocean sucked back.
D. CHAPMAN: The buoys set out there, one of the buoys were knocked off, so they thought for sure they were coming in. It wasn`t kmart trying to sell candle, water and blankets, right? So I thought it might be ABC stores, because they sold out everything. It was a day off, so they had to evacuate everything. We were right on the borderline. Larry King insisted that we do Skype and take right there. So I said --
BEHAR: Really?
B. CHAPMAN: we risked our life for CNN.
BEHAR: You know the show must go on. I`m sorry Dog.
D. CHAPMAN: Yes I know.
B. CHAPMAN: I think the realization came when the kids started to freak out. Like they were out and about in the evening time about 2:00 a.m. they were coming in. And they started packing their stuff and throwing stuff in bags and we were like what are you doing? They`re like the tsunami is coming. We have to fly to another island. You`re going to fly to another island, and then what?
BEHAR: They`re like the birds. They`re kids and get it.
D. CHAPMAN: Right the dogs were going crazy.
BEHAR: The dogs?
D. CHAPMAN: I mean it felt like it was real scary and then all of a sudden it was like a dud.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, now, your book is about your struggles and being a mentor to fugitives you capture.
D. CHAPMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Which is a very noble gesture on your part.
D. CHAPMAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: How do you mentor someone in handcuffs?
D. CHAPMAN: Well they`re a captive audience. You just -- well, when you start out after them, you get a mug shot and picture, start looking of course mom and dad. You start studying habits, smoking, every single thing. You know what brand. You know pretty soon in a day or so everything about them. Where they could have fallen off, you can kind of see you know arrested in 1988 after mother dies nine times and then from then on 50 times.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
D. CHAPMAN: So you know, okay I have to find -- when I can catch him, the first thing I`m going to talk about is his mama. And so once you capture him, then you got to stop the adrenaline some way.
BEHAR: Yes.
D. CHAPMAN: And so then we put them in the back of the car and give them the ride to jail and a lot of these guys - you know I was in jail in the `70s in Texas for 18 months and I remember the ride the cop gave me and said this is not right. You should do something else. I sure like you. You could be something with your life, Dog if you just quit that motorcycle gang and did something nice.
BEHAR: Yes.
D. CHAPMAN: And I heard those words and thought about them and you know not just because of him did I change, but it planted the seed. So if I got a plant of seed, if there is a God and both our religions believe that way, then you got to do at least good things for human beings to get there. And I`m kind of the piped piper for the criminal right now so.
BEHAR: What do you mean both our religions, I`m Catholic. What are you?
D. CHAPMAN: Oh are you?
BEHAR: I was raise heed catholic.
D. CHAPMAN: Oh were you? Protestant.
BEHAR: Oh so they believe in God. You`re right.
D. CHAPMAN: Yes almost all religions do.
BEHAR: Do you believe that every criminal deserves a second chance?
D. CHAPMAN: I believe most of them do. I won`t give Dahmer a second chance and people like that.
BEHAR: Jeffrey Dahmer.
D. CHAPMAN: No.
BEHAR: Would you execute him?
D. CHAPMAN: I would I believe again in the bible that says that if you take a life you`re life should be taken. I wouldn`t want to be the one to pull down the hammer, but if I was on the jury, I would have said his horrendous crimes, he didn`t deserve to stay alive. I don`t want to pay 168 bucks a day to keep him alive.
B. CHAPMAN: Like what we are doing for Andrew Luster.
BEHAR: Yes, uh huh.
B. CHAPMAN: He has a 124-year sentence, which we the taxpayers are going to pay for.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s a drag. Thousands of people show up to your book signings.
D. CHAPMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: They love you.
D. CHAPMAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Your fans are legion. What is it about you that people are so attracted to, both of you?
B. CHAPMAN: The hair.
D. CHAPMAN: No -
B. CHAPMAN: For sure.
BEHAR: And the tan? Where did you get this tan? Are you surfing? Look at the color --
D. CHAPMAN: We are out all - we are in the sun a lot.
B. CHAPMAN: Yes.
D. CHAPMAN: But I think it is - I met Sylvester Stallone, and I was like Rambo, Rocky, Sylvester Stallone and so we --
BEHAR: You should have said Rocky 1, Rocky 2, Rocky 3, Rocky, 4.
D. CHAPMAN: You are right and now Rambo is a great show. But so when they met Beth and Dog, it`s really you know, Dog, Beth, like it is really us. I think that`s the attraction to, you know, to our fans and our friends and to the people that love us. That yes, I`m really Dog and She`s really Beth.
B. CHAPMAN: People are really attracted to our family. They are really --
BEHAR: To your family --
B. CHAPMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: You and your kid.
B. CHAPMAN: Yes, they`re really attracted to how we sort of work and play together. You know because most people have a strained family life or work life, you know so they don`t really have a balance of either. You know, work with all of my kids and I work with my husband every day.
BEHAR: Okay.
B. CHAPMAN: And it`s kind of difficult, but, yet, they`re my best friends.
BEHAR: When we come back I want to talk a little bit more about your kids and also I have some twitter questions for you. Okay?
D. CHAPMAN: Oh yes, thank you.
BEHAR: Okay, so sit tight, Dog and Beth. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with "Dog" the Bounty Hunter and his wife, Beth. Okay I have some questions from Facebook and Twitter, all right?
D. CHAPMAN: Okay.
BEHAR: How do you guys keep the romance alive? How many years is it now again?
D. CHAPMAN: Been married three, been together for 21.
BEHAR: Yes so it`s a long time now.
D. CHAPMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: How do you keep that you know how do you keep the heat going?
D. CHAPMAN: Uh.
B. CHAPMAN: We`re very physical all the time.
BEHAR: You`re physical all the time.
D. CHAPMAN: Oh come on, now, don`t say that. Physical?
B. CHAPMAN: Is it not true or not?
BEHAR: You touch each other a lot?
B. CHAPMAN: We touch a lot. We`re affectionate.
D. CHAPMAN: I thought you meant rough house.
B. CHAPMAN: No, --
BEHAR: No she`s touch.
B. CHAPMAN: Later, babe. You know we`re very affectionate. We`re not afraid to show our feelings to one another. We keep it hot because we`re hot for each other. We`re really in love. We really, you know, take our marriage seriously. You know, and we have a lot of kids that are depending on us so.
BEHAR: Those are not all your kids.
B. CHAPMAN: No. But they`re my kids.
BEHAR: Those are from previous live wives? Right?
B. CHAPMAN: Previous wives? I`m sorry were there previous ones I don`t think they were. I think I just got them.
BEHAR: You can be in denial.
B. CHAPMAN: I`m very lucky I get to share them with those women.
BEHAR: Yes.
B. CHAPMAN: Because they`re really mine and they just call them once in a while.
BEHAR: Right. Okay. Let`s see. Beth looks good. Has she lost weight?
B. CHAPMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Okay. Do you think you`ll ever retire?
B. CHAPMAN: Oh.
D. CHAPMAN: Well, we used to be able to retire at 60 something. But I think my generation has to work until they die. And nobody is fault to that but you know I think our parents and our grandparents got to retire. I don`t think we`re going to get to.
BEHAR: Well they died younger too. The grandparents they died younger. Mostly at 60 the latest.
D. CHAPMAN: Right and once a lot of my people, when they got to that age and retired they did die because their life was so fast and they had to keep going. Once they, you know, took back they just went to sleep.
BEHAR: They had hard lives. You got in trouble back then for using the "N" word. Remember that?
D. CHAPMAN: Yes ma`am.
BEHAR: Somebody wants to know if you stopped using the "N" word. You apologized for it I know.
D. CHAPMAN: I have absolutely since the day I got caught using it I stopped.
B. CHAPMAN: And the book is about that.
BEHAR: Yes, it`s in the book.
D. CHAPMAN: Yes.
B. CHAPMAN: You know what, it`s a really detailed, nice story about it, and it really goes into detail about how it came down and --
BEHAR: Was it your son`s girlfriend, right?
D. CHAPMAN: My son -- I chewed my son out for allegedly doing drugs with his girlfriend and I used the word as stupidly. He recorded it and sold it to a magazine favorite. You just had the guy on your show. So yeah -- on your other show.
And so, you know, I -- if I wouldn`t have said it I wouldn`t have got caught. So I had to own up to it. You know, very quickly. A lot of people didn`t want me to do that.
BEHAR: Yes.
D. CHAPMAN: But I felt that was the right thing to do in the circumstance I`ve always been taught. You know, to go ahead if you do it, own up to it and admit it and better things will happen. I mean, every day I`m still getting by it and still getting through it.
BEHAR: Have your son and girlfriend forgiven you for that?
D. CHAPMAN: I`m sure the girlfriend has. My son is in prison.
BEHAR: Oh.
D. CHAPMAN: I told him on the 9th of September this year that I loved him and handed the phone back to Beth. And so, yes, we`re -- I forgave him that day, baby, you know? I love my son.
BEHAR: Of course you do.
D. CHAPMAN: I have other sons and daughters who said, dad, you know, let us deal with this.
B. CHAPMAN: Let us decide.
D. CHAPMAN: So I do that.
BEHAR: Yes okay.
B. CHAPMAN: Because he hurt so many people in the family and it was so terrible, we have to let the kids decide.
BEHAR: Dug -- dog.
D. CHAPMAN: Dog. That`s your accent. It`s okay.
BEHAR: It`s my accent. Thank you very much for joining me tonight. The new book is called "Where Mercy Is Shown, Mercy Is Given." Good night, everybody.
END
