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Joy Behar Page
Should Sandra Bullock Have Seen It Coming?; What Did Pope Know About Latest Priest Sex Abuse Scandal?
Aired March 29, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO, GUEST HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, everyone feels bad for Sandra Bullock who never questioned her husband`s fidelity. I`ll talk to another woman who says she should have.
Then, as the Catholic Church scandal grows, many are starting to ask the big question -- what did the Pope know and when did he know it?
And reports that even the LAPD is worried that Lindsay Lohan may need mental help. Her friends are worried that she might beyond help. Is there anything anyone can do?
All that plus a lot more, starting now.
Welcome, everybody. I`m Judge Jeanine Pirro filling in for Joy tonight. She`s not here, but don`t tell anyone. It will be our little secret.
As Sandra Bullock tries to privately handle her marriage, we keep getting new information. So far we`ve learned there are four mistresses, Nazi outfits and God knows what else is to come.
But it seems nobody is surprised by any of this except, of course, Sandra. The question is why?
Here to talk to me about this, are guests: supermodel, author and activist, Janice Dickinson; Associated Press entertainment editor, Alicia Quarles; and Sarah Symonds, former mistress, author and infidelity analyst.
Janice, Sandra knew that women were throwing themselves at her husband, Jesse. Should she have questioned his fidelity to her?
JANICE DICKINSON, SUPERMODEL: There`s no way that she would ever believed even if he looked cross-eyed at someone that he would cheat. I mean, not our Sandy. She`s a national treasure. I`ve met Sandy Bullock years ago when she was filming "Demolition Man", the nicest human being on the planet.
PIRRO: Yes. But the truth is, I mean, should her antennas have been up at all? She would trust him.
DICKINSON: No. That would be -- (INAUDIBLE), I mean no.
PIRRO: Ok. All right, Alicia, four mistresses have come forward and the guys who work with Jesse keep saying, "Oh, but he`s a good guy." Why is that?
ALICIA QUARLES, ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR, ASSOCIATED PRESS: You know what? Jeanine, he probably is a really good guy and he probably compartmentalized. I`m sure he loves Sandra. I`m sure he loved their kids. I`m sure he was a really good guy.
But part of him was also a really bad guy. You don`t get married, you don`t take those vows and then cheat with four women, two of whom we know are strippers.
DICKINSON: Thank you.
PIRRO: Four of them that we know so far.
QUARLES: So far, exactly. And, you know, why would Sandra have known?
PIRRO: Well, you know -- and that`s the question.
And I guess the person who can answer that is Sarah Symonds, who wrote the book, "Having an Affair".
Sarah, one of Jesse`s ex-wives called him a serial cheater. Should Sandra have known about this guy? And what were the telltale signs that you obviously know so well?
SARAH SYMONDS, AUTHOR, "HAVING AN AFFAIR": First of all, good evening, Judge Jeanine. Great to be with you on this.
The thing is -- the problem with Sandra is that she married a bad boy and like Janice was saying, bad boys never, ever change. She hoped she could tame him or fix him. But Jesse -- Jesse James -- not Jackson -- is absolutely the same person he always was. He`s dating the same type of women that he always did. He`s still doing the same things.
The problem was, she thought she could change him. Sadly, bad boys are always bad boys. There are plenty of signs and one of the red flags should have been he was married twice by the time he was 35, one of them was to an ex-porn star. He has three children, he`s covered in tattoos. I mean Sandra, come on.
PIRRO: Yes, but you know what? Tattoos don`t mean anything, do they? A lot of people have tattoos. I know people who have tattoos, they`re not bad people.
But the truth is that you`ve got a woman here who apparently was in a position of believing this guy. She`s not stupid. This woman is brilliant.
DICKINSON: No, she`s not stupid at all.
PIRRO: Janice --
DICKINSON: What`s wrong with being married? I`ve been married a couple of times. I take vows, I don`t date or date married men.
SYMONDS: The thing about Jesse James is that he was a tattoo addict.
QUARLES: It doesn`t matter. My husband is covered --
PIRRO: Is there a connection between being a tattoo addict and a serial cheater?
SYMONDS: There`s a connection.
PIRRO: I want to hear this. What is the connection?
SYMONDS: Ok. Jesse James is a tattoo addict, ok? And he`s also an extreme person doing all those daredevil stuff. So he has an extreme behavior. Like any addict, why would one woman ever be enough for him? I`m not surprised he had one mistress.
QUARLES: I don`t buy that. I don`t buy that at all. Janice, let me ask you this.
SYMONDS: It`s a fact. It`s a fact. The guy is covered in thousands of tiny (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
PIRRO: What did you just say? He`s what?
SYMONDS: I said --
DICKINSON: You`re off your rocker.
QUARLES: I have to say this. My husband is covered in tattoos. He likes extreme sports. That doesn`t make him a cheater.
DICKINSON: No. That`s exactly --
SYMONDS: It doesn`t make him, no. But it is a form of an addiction and like many addicts, one is --
PIRRO: You know what? There are lots of people who are addicted to alcohol and drugs, that doesn`t mean they`re serial cheaters. But look.
Let`s take a look at this interview Michelle "Bombshell" McGee`s dad gave to Fox Affiliate WJW.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNY MCGEE, MICHELLE MCGEE`S FATHER: I think my daughter was upset that she saw them together in the Oscars. and she was under the impression that they weren`t seeing each other. She felt like that they were going to have a relationship and then this happened and she was mad and went to the tabloids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DICKINSON: Dad, you got to say something to clean up your tramp`s reputation. I`m sorry.
PIRRO: Do you think she` a victim here?
DICKINSON: She`s not a victim. She`s a pig. I`m sorry.
PIRRO: Hold on. Alicia --
SYMONDS: Jesse James is the one that broke his vows. This woman was not married. She was not that was cheating on her husband.
DICKINSON: She`s even worse than he is.
PIRRO: Sarah, this woman knew that he was married. Anyone who can Google the name Sandra Bullock knows that he`s married.
QUARLES: And Jeanine, what kills me is the dad said --
SYMONDS: Can I just --
QUARLES: Sarah, I`m talking --
PIRRO: Hold on.
QUARLES: What kills me is that the dad said he didn`t know until he saw the two at the Oscars. He was there at the Golden Globes. He was at every awards show with her. Anybody with two cents of common sense would have seen they were together.
PIRRO: And by the way, at the Golden Globes and at the other awards, she constantly thanked him. And I think she says in one of them, she says, "My husband, Jesse, I love you so much. You`re really hot and I want you so much."
Here`s another one. "You have my back". And that`s the very problem is he had every other woman`s back along with Sandra`s. Shame on him.
DICKINSON: He`s un-American Jesse. Shame on him, indeed.
PIRRO: I got to hear this. I got to hear from Sandra. Should Sandra Bullock even consider taking him back?
DICKINSON: No way.
SYMONDS: No way. Don`t take that pig back.
QUARLES: Jesse James is a --
PIRRO: Who`s a pig? You`re the one who wrote the book on having affairs. What are you talking about?
DICKINSON: Yes, what about you? How do you reform being a mistress and writing about it? We want to know.
PIRRO: Why do women do this?
DICKINSON: You live in America. We want to know.
PIRRO: Sarah, why do women play around with married men? Do they want to be the other woman? Why do they do this?
SYMONDS: First of all, many women find it very hard to resist the advances of a married man. And if he`s a celebrity, sometimes it`s even harder. But let me tell you something about the -- let me tell you something about the M.O. of the cheating married man. He pursues the other women like a heat seeking missile. He`s relentless.
God knows what stories Jesse James told this girl. But he`s a narcissist. To let his wife stand there and give him credit, say she loves him; that is a very cruel, disjointed man.
QUARLES: Can I say something. It takes two to tango.
DICKINSON: It does.
PIRRO: It clearly takes two to tango, there`s no question about it. But she knew he was married. That doesn`t make it any more palatable for her to do it.
QUARLES: She knew he was married.
DICKINSON: I`m so glad that it`s not me that he`s cheated on.
SYMONDS: They`re guys, you cannot expect --
DICKINSON: I would have chopped that thing off to make your head spin.
PIRRO: Well, I think you really can`t do that.
SYMONDS: And now she`s cashing in on it.
PIRRO: let me ask you this, Alicia. Short of putting a honing device on this guy or a low jack, how does she ever trust him again?
QUARLES: I don`t know how she trusts again. She`s that tired of marrying men that she had issues with men. He built up her trust. And of course Sandra Bullock, because she`s been raising his 5-year-old daughter, Sunny, that it`s not just about Jesse. It`s about the family she created with him.
PIRRO: And not only that. This woman went to court and now has custody of his kids from his other marriages. So she`s in a bad spot. What does she do? These kids -- he hurt his kids more than anyone else because he gave them --
DICKINSON: He hurt everybody.
PIRRO: You`re right -- he did hurt everybody. But he gave the kids a sense of family. She talked -- Sandra Bullock talks about family all the time. You know, shame on him.
But his friends still say she`s a good guy.
QUARLES: Shame on him.
SYMONDS: Shame on him, indeed.
PIRRO: But here`s the good news. Dennis Rodman has come forward and Dennis said, "With all her success and money, I`ll be happy to take Sandra Bullock out for the time of her life."
DICKINSON: Oh, she can do better than that.
QUARLES: Run, Sandra, run.
PIRRO: But there`s another guy with tattoos all over his body.
Any way, listen, thank you, Alicia. And thank you, Janice. And thank you, Sarah.
Next coming up, the Catholic Church is again at the center of a sex abuse scandal. We`ll examine the claims of papal cover up, so stay right here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, will Levi Johnston follow in Sarah Palin`s footsteps and land his own reality show? And a look at Chat Roulette, why this latest Web craze may be a hot bed for sexual predators.
Now back to today`s guest host, Judge Jeanine Pirro.
PIRRO: The sex scandal plaguing the Catholic Church has finally landed at the Vatican gates. New allegations claim that the Pope Benedict knew about an American priest who molested up to 200 deaf boys and failed to take any action. The Pope responded harshly yesterday saying he would not be intimidated by petty gossip. Since when are allegations of child abuse petty gossip?
So what did the Pope know and when did he know it? Joining me to discuss this tonight are Kevin Cullen, reporter with "The Boston Globe" and author of "The Crisis in the Catholic Church"; Jeff Anderson, an attorney who has filed thousands of lawsuits against the Catholic Church on behalf of victims; and Bill Donohue, President of the Catholic League.
I`m going to start with Kevin tonight. Kevin, I still have your book "Betrayal". I`ve had it for years, and of course, you and I met when I did one of the first grand jury investigations into this priest pedophile cover-up with respect to some of the priests in my jurisdiction.
And of course, my question is, talk about Wisconsin. What happened with the priest pedophile case there and what even brings it close to the Pope?
KEVIN CULLEN, AUTHOR, "THE CRISIS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH": Well Jeanine, as you mentioned, this is deja vu all over again. The situation here, while I think it`s changed the tenor of the debate and elevated or brought it back into the news is that before he was Pope Benedict, the Pope was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. And in that position with the Vatican he was in charge of discipline and doctrine and handled a lot of these cases.
When they left whether the United States or Ireland or any place else, it went through the Cardinal`s office.
And in this specific case the allegations are is that Cardinal Ratzinger then called off the dogs, called off the trial, the church trial of this priest named Murphy in Wisconsin who was accused of abusing so many children in this deaf institution.
PIRRO: And Kevin, as you say at the time the now Pope was as Cardinal Ratzinger, the head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, which is a position where -- and checked this out today where their task is to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and prescribe errors on false doctrine.
And as such -- and I`ll go to Jeff with this -- documents were unearthed in the Wisconsin case, I think by Jeff which is what brings it into the newspapers these days.
Jeff, how did you find out about this stuff? When I was the D.A., I could not get this information, most of it was protected and back in Rome.
JEFF ANDERSON, ATTORNEY FOR VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ABUSE: Well, look, for 25 years, as you know it, Judge, it`s tough to get these documents. But we`ve been, by court order, requiring them to turn these over. And I`ve been, for 25 years, requiring that of the bishops across the country.
But in this case, we just got a turnover of documents in which these documents were embedded. And I`m not surprised that the Vatican, of course, is in charge of this.
But what shocked me when I saw this is this is the first documentation we`ve seen directly from this cover-up of the serial predator in Wisconsin through the Archbishop, directly to Cardinal Ratzinger and Rome and then Rome and Cardinal Ratzinger instructing the Archbishop and other clerics to abate the process, keep it secret and forget about the kids.
PIRRO: All right, now I`m going to go to you, Bill --
BILL DONOHUE, PRESIDENT OF THE CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Right.
PIRRO: -- I mean, you know, what we`ve got here are two Bishops who, in this case and the priest in Wisconsin beseeched the Vatican and said get rid of this guy and asked him to take action against him. Instead the church trial was halted and they refused to defrock him. So what`s going on here?
DONOHUE: I want to take issue with several things that have been said including -- this is probably the biggest frame I`ve ever seen in my life.
PIRRO: But why would anybody want to frame the church?
DONOHUE: Can I -- can I -- let me go through the timeline, which neither one of these gentlemen did. Abuses took place in the 1950s. The reasons we don`t know --
PIRRO: No, no, not that tape, I`m talking Wisconsin.
DONOHUE: No, that`s what I`m talking about.
DONOHUE: In the 1950s that`s when it started.
PIRRO: If you yell, it doesn`t make your point, Bill. And I can hear you.
DONOHUE: But Jeanine, Jeanine --
DONOHUE: You gave these two guys both of them -- their opportunity, right?
They began in the 1950s. The victim`s families didn`t bring it to the attention of the authorities until the mid 1970s. The cops investigated and they found nothing and they dropped it. The great hero of Archbishop Weakland out of Wisconsin never even bothered to notify the Vatican until 1996. Ratzinger never even knew about this.
PIRRO: So you -- you deny that Ratzinger, now the Pope, knew about it. And you say that because it was beyond the statute of limitations. There was nothing they could do.
DONOHUE: As a matter of fact --
PIRRO: Isn`t there a Canon Law, Bill irrespective of the civil law and they were not referring these cases to civil courts anyway. Shouldn`t you, instead of leading these victims, you know, delivering them to the wolves, shouldn`t you be shepherding the victims as opposed to moving these pedophile priest around?
DONOHUE: First -- first of all, the hero of the left Archbishop Weakland could have brought -- could have had a trial on this in Wisconsin. He could have been investigating this. Why did he wait so long? But look, it went to Ratzinger`s office. Ratzinger`s office, I get hundreds of letters every day that I don`t read. But even --
PIRRO: Oh, don`t even go there, Bill. You know the buck stops at the top.
DONOHUE: No, no, and you know what? What did they do, they could have said, the statute of limitations has run out. Instead they said let`s authorize a trial.
DONOHUE: You know why they didn`t defrock him because he hadn`t been found guilty yet and the guy died. What in the world do you want them to do with that case?
PIRRO: Ok, Kevin, talk to me. What`s your response on this?
CULLEN: Well, first of all, I think I would just like to put a little context in this. I think, one thing we have to remember is that there`s only been one bishop in the history of the United States who was actually disciplined and/or lost his job because of complicity in abuse.
And there`s the clear difference here. Were not talking about the priests who abuse children, that`s one thing. But they could only be enabled that they were being moved around and not being dealt with when these allegations first surfaced. I think what`s happening here, as we said with Cardinal Law, what happened is that our newspaper, "The Boston Globe," was able to go to court and get documents.
It wasn`t what "The Boston Globe" said; it`s what Cardinal Law said in his own document. That`s what ran him out of town. This is what`s happening in this case.
But I think the bigger issue here is that the bishops who enabled the abusers all these years, they were never dealt with.
PIRRO: You know what?
CULLEN: There was never -- and that`s why it`s coming home to roost.
PIRRO: But let me ask you this, Kevin thank you. But let me ask you this. You said that there`s one leftist bishop. What about the other bishops? What about 200 deaf boys` families and where is the church is can say, look, the Civil Statute of Limitations have passed. Why didn`t they defrock this guy? Do you think 200 deaf kids are lying?
DONOHUE: Well, no, no, I`m not saying that. I`m simply saying that you want to go where the action is, go to Wisconsin. You can`t put it on Ratzinger`s desk.
PIRRO: Of course you can.
DONOHUE: Because he never got it until 1996, he never got it until 1996.
PIRRO: All right, so why didn`t he defrock him in `96?
DONOHUE: Because they started the trial. They did exactly what they were supposed to do.
PIRRO: But they halted the trial.
PIRRO: Bill, they halted the trial --
DONOHUE: Halted the trial when the guy is ready to drop dead in a couple of days.
PIRRO: He was ready to drop dead but he didn`t drop dead. They should have defrocked him instead they said he can`t say mass outside of archdiocese.
You know what Jeff, let me ask you something. How do you get a- hold of these documents? How do you prove when Bill -- and you know what? And I respect you, Bill, I mean, you work for the church, I get it.
But what do we do for the victims in these cases? How do we prove that this got to Ratzinger, now the Pope?
ANDERSON: Well, we prove it through the testimony of the survivors but in this case and in these cases, we use the church documents that they have kept secret for centuries and decades.
And in this case, the Archbishop wrote directly to Ratzinger, asking for his intervention because he had jurisdiction over the removal of the priest. They started an investigation. They went to Rome --
PIRRO: And you know what? Jeff, you`re right.
ANDERSON: And the documents go directly to the Pope and they go directly to Ratzinger and the tale is in the documents. The documents don`t lie because those are the words of Ratzinger, his secretary Bertone and --
PIRRO: Ok, I got to wrap it up. We`re coming back. Ok. Stay right there.
More on the Catholic Church scandal when we come back.
PIRRO: We`re back with my panel talking about the Catholic Church scandal that`s made it all the way to the Vatican`s doorstep.
I`m going back to you, Bill. In addition to this case from Wisconsin, when Bishop Ratzinger or Cardinal Ratzinger was in Munich, he moved a pedophile priest by the name Hullermann from Essen to Munich. All right.
He was in charge and presided over meeting where everyone knew he was pedophile. He was an admitted pedophile, the documents are clear. And he was moved to another parish and molested more kids. Was then convicted by the civil authorities and -- get this -- the guy, the priest Hullermann was suspended of his pastoral duties ten days ago.
Shame on the Church and I`m Catholic. I don`t want to read this stuff.
DONOHUE: The guy was in Essen and then they asked him, can we go to Munich for the therapy? Quite frankly, I think the Church bought the liberal line on this nonsense in giving therapy because a psychiatry can fix people. I would have thrown him out.
PIRRO: Thank you very much.
DONOHUE: But that`s the hard line.
PIRRO: So you believe that it goes to Ratzinger, that he knew about it because he presided over the meeting. He then allowed to removal to another --
DONOHUE: They said, will you allow him to have therapy in Munich and he said yes. That was the end of it in terms of his role in this.
PIRRO: Hogwash. He moved him to a parish in Munich.
DONOHUE: Even the "New York Times" is saying that there is no evidence that that happened.
PIRRO: That`s not true. Gruber`s (ph) the one who`s taking the heat for it.
DONOHUE: So you know that Ratzinger did it and "The New York Times" is wrong?
PIRRO: All right. Jeff let me ask you this. What do we do in terms of the law? Do we make these bishops accountable for facilitation of pedophilia when they move these priests around that they know are pedophiles?
ANDERSON: What we have to do is hold the bishops and the Vatican accountable for their role in the cover up of these crimes. The question isn`t always when they knew, the question is, what did they do when they knew that a kid was abused and what they did in that case. What they`ve done across the country as we uncovered for 25 years, is when they learn they protect the priests and their own reputation instead of the kids.
ANDERSON: And that`s really what it`s about. They choose to protect their reputation and avoid scandal instead of worrying about these kids.
PIRRO: And you know, Jeff, what the shame of this is? The shame of this is there are practicing Catholics out there. It`s Holy Week, I`m one of them, but I am outraged at the thought that the Pope may have known about this.
And finally Kevin, I`m going to give you the last word. Why is this coming forward now? Why are we talking about it at Holy Week? What is it that`s bringing us here and just say it in 15 seconds because I want to go to Bill.
CULLEN: Well Judge, you know, seven years ago we dealt with the abuse of priests. Right now it seems like this is really addressing the enablers where it really was not addressed seven years ago.
PIRRO: Good point, we`re moving up the ladder. You`re absolutely right Kevin.
And Bill, how do we restore faith in the Catholic Church?
DONOHUE: Well, I think we`re doing it already. There were six accusations made between 2008 and 2009. I`ll put that up again for anybody. We`re going back 50 years. I want to see the 50-year records on the partisans and Jews and the public school industry.
But you know what? I`m setting the record straight. Tomorrow in "The New York Times", I have an op-ed page which I have written myself. And then I want to hear what the reaction will be.
PIRRO: Ok. All right. What a shock. We`ve got Bill here expressing himself with an op-ed piece.
Thanks, guys. We`ll be back right after this short break.
PIRRO: Will Lindsay Lohan`s wild child antics be catching up to her? According to TMZ, police officers who regularly come into contact with her say they`re worried about her increasingly erratic behavior and some say they have even considered holding her for mental evaluation. Here to talk about that and more are comedian and editor of popgoestheweek.com, Brian Balthazar. Back with me is Alicia Quarles, Associated Press Entertainment editor. And joining us is Jill Zarin co-star of "the Real Housewives of New York."
Now, this is to all of you. Recently we see that Lohan on several occasions has been found sleeping in her car. She`s falling into cactus -- cacti I mean is this girl just tired or is there something wrong with her?
BRIAN BALTHAZAR, EDITOR, "POPGOESTHEWEEK.COM": The problem is, when you become known more for her behavior than your career, it`s a cycle. And then you are just going to - you are going to run into trouble you know. It`s affecting her career. So then she`s going to get into more trouble because she`s got nothing to do. She`s got nothing else to do.
PIRRO: Well Alicia you`ve seen her recently. What`s the deal with her?
ALICIA QUARLES, ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR, ASSOCIATED PRESS: You`re right, I like that. I did see her recently. And I though oh my god, I`ve been interviewing this girl since she first broke onto the scene like years ago. She looks like a totally different person. The thing is, she became famous because she`s extremely talented. She`s got to get it together. It`s not too late to save her career.
PIRRO: What`s interesting, and I`ll address this to you Jill. There`s a section 5150, ever state has it, where the police have the ability to go to a court and get an order if they think you`re a danger to yourself or others. And apparently LAPD thinks this woman may be dangerous. You know her father, right.
JILL ZARIN, "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF NEW YORK": I do, actually do.
PIRRO: Is she worried about this girl?
ZARIN: Of course he`s really worried. You know I`m really happy to say that Michael is not talking about it now because he`s trying to develop a relationship with her so that she`ll hear him. But you know at 18 years old, that`s it, you are done. There`s nothing a parent can do except hope for the best. And try as far as the section goes of putting her away, if she wasn`t a celebrity, would they apply that to her? That`s the only thing that`s sort of not fair. Because she`s -
PIRRO: I don`t know.
ZARIN: And the cacti thing, I got to say, she got crowded by the paparazzi. Let`s be honest.
PIRRO: And she fell into cactus, is that what happen?
ZARIN: She was trying to get around them. I saw it. She was trying to get -
PIRRO: OK but what about this latest picture, I mean she`s coming out of a party, she`s got either a Johnson baby powder or something coming out of her shoes.
BALTHAZAR: Yes, she`s got her stash hidden in the wrong place.
PIRRO: Take a look at that picture - I mean --
QUARLES: Look at that picture.
BALTHAZAR: She loves her talcum.
PIRRO: Is she not focused and by the way, she`s been to rehab three times. You would think the rehab places would take some credit for their rehabilitation techniques.
QUARLES: This is the problem with young Hollywood though.
ZARIN: You know an addict can be put away many, many times before they`re cured. I mean what is the failure rate?
PIRRO: Do we need Dr. Drew? I mean --
QUARLES: We might - I mean absolutely.
ZARIN: I`m sure he`s reached out to her.
QUARLES: When you are rich and you are famous, and you are beautiful and you are young everything is accessible, so that means the parties are accessible, the people that say yes to you are accessible. This is a young Hollywood girl, I`m sure there`s not a lot of people telling her no.
ZARIN: That`s true.
BALTHAZAR: And I don`t think exactly - I don`t think that the police are wrong for scrutinizing this. You know everyday people don`t have photographers capturing these kinds of moments all the time. So it`s just that this is out there. We are seeing something. In the past week was the cacti incident.
BALTHAZAR: And the white powder incident. And falling asleep in cars. How many cars do you have to fall asleep in before somebody does you know --
PIRRO: Well the good news is that she is not driving. We should be grateful for that.
ZARIN: Definitely you know this is a cry for help, there is no question. Her bad behavior because she`s been in rehab so many times, she`s crying out for help. For an addict how do you help her?
PIRRO: Would you oppose the police 5150-ing her?
ZARIN: No I wouldn`t because I think it helped with Britney.
PIRRO: I agree, all right, let`s move on.
ZARIN: I do -
PIRRO: Although people in the Tiger Woods` camp would love to see his wife Elin attend the Masters in a show of support, Elin`s friends say she won`t be wearing that green blazer. All right, now, let`s talk about -- you know, should this woman -- let me go to Alicia. No, I want to go to Jill on this.
ZARIN: I have an opinion on everything.
PIRRO: Should she go to the Masters?
ZARIN: No but not for the reason you think I would say. It`s a distraction, it`s a distraction for the players. These men have been playing all year long - they want to you know --
PIRRO: Isn`t Tiger himself a distraction? I mean think about that?
ZARIN: Yes. Imagine the press. They will all go -- did she clap, did she look, did she smile.
PIRRO: Right, right, right.
ZARIN: It`s a diversion.
PIRRO: You are right.
ZARIN: We want to focus on golf.
PIRRO: Alicia, mistress number 15 came out this week. Can Elin stand by this guy?
QUARLES: If Elin stands by this man, she deserves either a trophy or to be slapped in the face, I don`t know which one. It would be hard to stand by your man. I mean it`s not like one affair.
PIRRO: Does anybody think that she loves him?
ZARIN: Well I think -
BALTHAZAR: Tiger took about a year to establish his infidelity. She could have a year to figure out whether to stay with him.
PIRRO: Well she`s got a nice life with this guy. You know maybe she`s standing by him to make sure he gets those, you know, sponsor back, those endorsements.
BALTHAZAR: And she shouldn`t go to the Master it is for no other reason she doesn`t want him going near those clubs. Because evidence would suggest -
ZARIN: I knew when that happened, I said to my husband, she wanted to get him.
PIRRO: Would do you think, a 9 iron or a Big Bertha, what do you think?
ZARIN: He - she wanted to get him, there`s no -
QUARLES: But Jeanine, we were in their lives, look, look, Tiger could have that whole other life, which he did with all those women but he could have treated his wife great. Maybe she does love him. We don`t know. We don`t know.
PIRRO: There is no question about it, you take a Sandra Bullock, we talked about her and take an Elin, they`ve got nice lives. I mean Sandra Bullock loves this guy. She loves this guy, and I think that a lot of these women can get over it. But with texting today, you know, I like it from behind, I like being a pull on my pony tail, how do you live with that, Jill?
ZARIN: The one thing I want to say about that, you know, the truth is in Hollywood, she was gone three months at a time. I mean yes, she loved him and adored him, but she was working three months. And this is a guy who obviously wanted to have sex -
PIRRO: Take a cold shower. I don`t buy that.
ZARIN: Yes but you don`t part so much as for a marriage -
PIRRO: All right let`s move on. We`re going to Levi Johnston. Now this one is back in the news. He`s reportedly pitching a reality show about life in Alaska that some people are calling "Entourage on Ice."
PIRRO: All right now he says that this show is going to shine the light on him and the women and his opportunities. And lots and lots of women - can women be attracted to this guy? Brian.
BALTHAZAR: This is going to be like "Jersey Shore" and parkas and he will find his way to a hot tub.
BALTHAZAR: This is a guy, unlike Elin, who wants to avoid camera, he`s got the other effect, he is magnetized by them. Can you blame him, though? Can you blame this guy?
BALTHAZAR: He`s got nothing else to look forward to.
PIRRO: No, you can`t blame him, you know what, he ought to get a real job and take care of his baby.
QUARLES: Doing what?
ZARIN: He will make more money doing a reality show than he will you know, giving books at the library.
PIRRO: He is driving from one station to another pitching this show with his RV, you think he has a booster seat in that one?
ZARIN: I highly doubt it. Highly doubt it.
BALTHAZAR: Can it increase the chances of getting a shot -
QUARLES: Listen, these are his 15 minutes of fame. Like him or hate him, he`s got to cash in. Right now is the time to do it, you know, whoever - god bless him, yes.
ZARIN: Would you watch?
PIRRO: No. But I`m not - be honest.
BALTHAZAR: I will think I might watch. I`ll watch the first one. The problem with him is he`s better when he`s not talking.
PIRRO: How do you know?
BALTHAZAR: The interviews he`s given --
ZARIN: Are you saying he looks good?
BALTHAZAR: When he opens his mouth, it`s trouble, nothing good comes out. Nothing good.
PIRRO: Maybe you know what, he`s trying to compete with his almost mother-in-law who apparently has her own reality show now. Apparently she`s got a new reality show that they just announced today --
ZARIN: That, you know, I guess, that is freedom, I guess. That`s what we get with freedom in this country. Anybody can have a show.
PIRRO: That`s true. Look at me. Anybody can have a show. Alicia, do you have a show yet?
QUARLES: I`m working on it.
PIRRO: Anyways, it`s great to have you all here tonight. I appreciate your input. Thanks, everyone. And I`m going to take a look at the fascination with Michelle "Bombshell" McGee and the in versioning interest in NAZI culture. Don`t go anywhere
BEHAR: Welcome back. Joy`s still not here. After pictures of alleged Jesse James mistress Michelle "Bombshell" McGee decked out in Nazi garb and tattoos turned up TMZ, her father felt compelled to explain his daughter is not connected to a Nazi group. In an interview with FOX affiliate WJW.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNY MCGEE, MICHELLE MCGEE`S FATHER: I don`t know about my daughter having any Nazi or any relations with them at all. She`s always been a great kid. She`s a good mom to her kids. She`s a little crazy with the tattoos and stuff. But as far as the Nazi thing goes, that`s ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PIRRO: Good mom to her kids. Well maybe so, but the Nazi attire and tattoos are still offensive to many. So what`s behind this fascination with Nazi culture? And at one point does shock value become something more dangerous.
Joining me now to discuss this are T.J. Leyden, former NEO Nazi skinhead and founder of Straight Talk Consulting. And Rick Ross, cult expert and intervention specialist.
Now I`m going to talk first to T.J.. T.J. you may remember years ago you came to my office to talk about what was going on in some of these groups. Let`s say with Michelle "Bombshell" McGee here for a minute, does this woman not know that her wearing these swastikas and symbols are inflammatory or certainly speak to something extremely negative or is it just shock value on her part?
T.J. LEYDEN, FORMER SKINHEAD: I think for her, it might have been shock value. But the problem is her wearing those things, especially the certain things she had, the swastika arm band, SS dagger, leads credence to the white power movement. They`re going to use these things.
PIRRO: You think this woman lends credence to the movement? I mean really.
LEYDEN: I think she does. I mean the white supremacy movement over the year has gone from you know trying to be a little bit more wholesome to trying to be a little bit more edgy. You start seeing originally in some of their publications girls dressed more refine. Now girls are dressing like they do in Maxim. Sex sells and they`re going to use this as a tool to say through recruiting, hey, look it, we got big-time actresses of girls involved, you know, they`re going to try to tie this --
PIRRO: So basically saying we`re more main stream as if she`s main stream.
PIRRO: So Rick, let me ask you this, what is the fascination on Google with this Nazi stuff? What is this all about and is there a rise in this stuff?
RICK ROSS, ROSS INSTITUTE OF NEW JERSEY: Well I think there`s an uptick, judge. I think in recent years with the election of Barack Obama and with the kind of polarization that we`ve experienced in our country, not to mention the economic downturn, that there has been a real resurgence in recruiting in these groups. I mean there are 25,000, 35,000 --
PIRRO: So you mean with the economy down, people just have more time so they go on line and look at this stuff? I mean they need something to believe in? Is this like pre World War II?
ROSS: Well not - not - I think it`s more like something to scapegoat. It`s a kind of blaming and scapegoating process where people are bitter, unemployed, things don`t look good. And then they try out you know the usual villains, the international conspiracy, and these themes that have, you know, resonated with these movements as a subculture for many years.
PIRRO: But what`s so scary about this is in addition to, you know, the meaning to so many people and when I prosecuted hate crimes as a D.A., you realized the enormous pain that people go through when they see things like swastikas. But there appears to be a sexual element to it. Is there a fetish here or?
ROSS: Well you know, backing up to Jesse James and his whole biker subculture, I mean, he kind of cast himself as one of the 1 percenters that is the small minority of bikers that are the outlaw bikers. He claimed to have been related to Jesse James the outlaw. He claimed to have connections to hell`s angels, which kind of interconnects with some of these groups. You know with regards to Neo Nazi activities. The Arian Brotherhood in prison. So all of this kind of bubbles beneath the surface and I`m wondering what his attraction is to this woman and what her connection is to those same people.
PIRRO: Well let me ask you this T.J., you know, more broadly, and you obviously were at one point a skinhead.
PIRRO: And then what brought you from that kind of life to a life where you actually go out and talk about how wrong it is and what we can do to defend ourselves from that?
LEYDEN: Well it was my kids, my boys. I saw how my life was affecting them in the long-term. And I think if it wasn`t for my boys, I probably would have ended up in prison or you k now dead. The thing with this woman and I kind of get the connection with Jesse has some, you know, history when he was building bikes, he liked the way a lot of the early Hell`s Angels built their bikes. I don`t see the connection with the white supremacy movement. But with his girl and a lot of her tattoos, supposedly she has a swastika, it say WP on the back of her legs. She`s posing with this stuff --
PIRRO: Yes, I know what is - tell the viewers what the WP means. She has a W on one leg and a P on the other, what does that mean to someone like you?
LEYDEN: Well someone like me, when I was a white supremacist recruiter, that`s white power.
PIRRO: White power, absolutely.
LEYDEN: It`s straight up, straight out, very plain.
PIRRO: And that`s a tattoo, not just that swastika on her arm, that`s a tattoo on her body.
LEYDEN: Yes, it`s permanent.
PIRRO: Do you see a sexual component in this, T.J.? I mean you were a skinhead, how does it connect?
LEYDEN: Oh, it`s a very sexual component. The movement still has a lot of testosterone, young men and this is going to be appealing to them. I mean, you know, they like girls that are heavily tatted out, they like the whole thing, you know thing, she`s posing very provocative in some of these photos with a lot of the Nazi memorabilia. And I`m guaranteeing you this kind of attraction is going to push kids into the movement.
PIRRO: All right. Rick, let me ask you this, you`ve done interventions where families will call you and say we want to get our son, our daughter, whatever out of the movement. Can you succeed? Is this something you can do?
ROSS: Yes, I`ve done it many times. For example, as T.J. alluded to, there are a lot of young guys that are getting involved in this movement and it`s surprising how they are recruited within middle class neighborhoods, on school campuses. Tom Metzger of the White Aryan resistance made a major effort to kind of move in on the skinhead movement which is not necessarily racist and recruit young people. And many kinds - -
PIRRO: And the internet is an enormous lift for that whole thing.
LEYDEN: It is their number one tool?
PIRRO: Is it their number one tool? I remember, T.J., when you came to my office, you talked about the coloring books the world church, the creator and all those people to get kids involved in this kind of stuff. But you can get people out of this. T.J., how about you? Let me -- I remember that there was talk that you were threatened as a result of kind of leaving the movement and then trying to be a voice against it.
LEYDEN: My life has been threatened from time to time, and I take precautions when it`s necessary. I`ve gotten 64 kids out of this lifestyle of White Supremacy since probably the last time we`ve met over the years.
PIRRO: Fantastic, that`s good.
LEYDEN: And we all work kind of together and the main thing is, this hurts. This hurts when we are making strides. This kind of stuff does not help. When a girl does this kind of stuff, whether she meant to be racist or she did not mean to be racist, whether her tattoos are racist or not, the White Supremacy movement will use this as a recruitment tool.
PIRRO: Exactly, exactly and of course they`re going to claim first amendment, freedom of speech, we`re not doing anything wrong. You know when did we cross the line, you know from expression to you know a hate crime.
ROSS: Well, you know, her picture looks like a recruitment poster and she has the freedom to tattoo her body as much as she likes.
ROSS: But they don`t have the freedom to hurt other people. For example, graffiti on synagogues, on grave stones, and some of the terrible things they`ve done.
PIRRO: And that stuff we prosecuted because that`s crossing the line. But unfortunately we don`t have a lot of time to talk about this. T.J., good to talk to you again.
LEYDEN: You too.
PIRRO: Rick, I appreciate you being here again. And we`ll be back in a minute.
PIRRO: Looking for Joy? Joy`s not here tonight but we`re here to talk about chat roulette, a wildly popular website that brings you face to face with random strangers from all over the world. Unfortunately many of these random strangers are not wearing any clothes and worse. Needless to say, it`s become a haven for sexual predators. And here to talk to me about chat roulette is criminologist Casey Jordan. How are you?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: I`m great. How are you?
PIRRO: Casey I went on chat roulette today. I was stunned with what I saw.
PIRRO: I saw people with their clothes off engaging in sexual acts. And I assume you went on it today as well.
JORDAN: Yes your producer forced me to.
PIRRO: And that`s Evan, by the way. Evan`s mother I hear watches this show. What did you see.
JORDAN: Well everything he warned me about was true. And I sat there for, I don`t know, maybe half an hour. They were all men. A lot in foreign countries. And all they typed after the first two or three things, boobs. Okay? They want to see your boobs or if you don`t show them to you or they decide I guess I`m too old they are onto the next one.
PIRRO: Just so our viewers know -
PIRRO: You sign on to this. With a camera, they see you, you see them. You can just hit next.
PIRRO: But I saw more than just male organs. I saw female genitalia as well today.
JORDAN: Oh sure there are people in it for the shock value. But I think what disturbed me the most, there were females I saw who appeared to be trolling for men to perhaps get them to their website or something. They were interested in --
PIRRO: All right, you and I both know sexual predators, pedophiles -
PIRRO: This is a site that`s going to attract all of them. How do we monitor this to make sure our kids are not communicating with a predator or worse meeting them offline in an offline rendezvous?
JORDAN: This thing has taken off as a firestorm over 1.5 million users of it right new. And the problem is it`s a real challenge for law enforcement and, of course, for your internet servers, your AOLS, Yahoo! People. They can monitor what`s going on. But you`re clicking and clicking looking for that person you want to chat with so quickly. That the actual corruption of minors, the risk of injury to morals and so on can happen well before the police can catch up with people.
PIRRO: Okay not only that then the question is, where jurisdiction logged? So assuming the police monitor it. And I did internet pedophiles operations for years.
JORDAN: I know you did, yes.
PIRRO: But then if they`re in Romania, because this is all over the world. But not to hit Romania, but I mean who`s got jurisdiction of the case?
JORDAN: It`s a great question. I don`t think we have the answer to it. It`s going to have to be found out in the courts. Local law enforcement working together are going to sort it out. But in the meantime it`s happening. And even though it says the rules, you should be 16 or older, please, please stay clothed.
PIRRO: And keep your clothes on.
JORDAN: It says please.
PIRRO: I like that one.
JORDAN: It`s a request. It`s not even a rule.
JORDAN: Then it`s really, you know --
PIRRO: But then who shuts this thing down? Assuming there are kids under 16, sexual predators and people engaging in offline rendez-vouses, who monitors this? You say law enforcement, but can it be shut down?
JORDAN: It can`t be shut down, no. And I don`t think law enforcement can go fast enough on this thing. So it falls into the lap of parents. It really does.
PIRRO: What do you tell parents?
JORDAN: All right, it`s the standard stuff. The computer has got to be in a common area. Your kid does not need a computer in his or her room. Very simple. And by the way, when they`re on the computer and you`re watching television, they`re looking at this stuff.
PIRRO: That`s right.
JORDAN: It really does come down to knowing your kids well enough and by the time they`re 12 they`re set as to whether they`re going it be honest with you and follow your rules. So read them well.
PIRRO: One of the things is the camera. And that might be - you know one of the qualifiers.
PIRRO: Anyway Casey, we certainly don`t have enough time to talk about this tonight.
JORDAN: I know.
PIRRO: But thanks for being with us. And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.