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Joy Behar Page
Nazi Regalia Allegedly Featured in Jesse James` Sex Tapes; Oprah Winfrey to Interview Rielle Hunter
Aired April 06, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Jesse James has allegedly made 12 sex tapes while wearing Nazi regalia: arm bands, crosses, swastikas. Here`s the question. Is he a Nazi lover or does he just like to accessorize?
Then bratty, shallow, self-involved. Glenn Beck? No. Just one of the thousands of spoiled kids in America; one mother who put a stop to her daughter`s bratty behavior will tell me how she managed it.
Plus Oprah Winfrey will interview Rielle Hunter. The talk show host is hoping to break a ratings record during May`s weeks (ph) and Elizabeth Edwards hoping to break every TV in a three-mile radius.
That and more right now.
Sandra Bullock and Elin Woods seem to be taking a new approach in dealing with their cheating husbands, total indifference. So is letting these dogs twist in the wind the best way to handle these painful situations?
With me now to discuss is Mary Jo Eustace whose husband left her for Tori Spelling. I guess that`s why her book is called "Divorce Sucks". Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist and contributor for care.com and Steve Adubato, author of "What were They Thinking: Crisis communication, the good, bad and totally clueless".
Robi let me start with you. All right. These girls are kicking their husbands to the curb by ignoring them. Is that a good strategy?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, WE don`t know what they`re doing, you know.
BEHAR: Well, but publicly.
LUDWIG: They`re not making a decision whether they want to stay in the marriage or not right away, and that`s probably the wise thing to do because when you find out about an infidelity it`s usually recommended that you don`t make any decision right away because you`ll be making a highly reactive decision. So the recommendation is, stay back, wait until you can be more objective, find out more information. And maybe it`s best not to do anything.
BEHAR: So immediate violence is out?
LUDWIG: Right. Well, that`s not recommended, although I`m sure it happens. It sure it happens quite a lot.
STEVE ADUBATO, AUTHOR, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING": It`s an excuse for violence.
BEHAR: Every divorce case that I`ve ever seen there`s a little bit of the woman throwing something at the man. Just saying?
ADUBATO: Just saying. Right.
LUDWIG: Well, how could they not be angry? You know?
BEHAR: I`ve heard that. I mean not me, of course, but others.
ADUBATO: Yes. Others.
LUDWIG: Violent women.
BEHAR: Mary Jo is this the meanest thing you can do to a cheating husband, is be indifferent to them?
MARY JO EUSTACE, AUTHOR, "DIVORCE SUCKS": I can think of a few other things, you know, one or two. I think that it`s a really interesting sort of way to approach it.
Now Elin, I sort of just think that she expressed herself that night with Tiger and the golf club. I just get the impression that she`s totally over it. And that they`ve had a really great meeting in a lawyer`s office and she`s just sort of, you know, in the picture for the time being.
She seems much more, I don`t know -- she seems much less affected by it, I suppose, just personally.
But Sandra Bullock, I mean -- first of all, you know, the guy wore overalls and now he`s like a Nazi. I mean it`s tough. I think that it`s really interesting.
Today she issued a statement because I guess there was this rumor that there was a sex tape, and she finally came forward and said there`s no sex tape. I`ve never been in a sex tape and I never will be.
BEHAR: Right. Well, this is the first time we`ve heard from Sandra Bullock. She opened her mouth to "People" magazine or people.com.
LUDWIG: And she has different issues to consider. She`s an actress in the public eye. Elin is not.
ADUBATO: It`s totally different. That`s the issue.
LUDWIG: Elin is the wife.
ADUBATO: That`s the issue. And look -- I look at this from a PR, image, crisis situation. And Sandra Bullock -- and you think about this. She has the crisis of her marriage, Joy, but she also has the crisis of managing her career, meaning people are judging how she deals with this or doesn`t deal with this, and it`s going to impact her career, which is ridiculous, because that`s a double-hit.
This guy does what he does. It`s horrible stuff. It`s a public embarrassment, and now, if she doesn`t kick him to the curb she`s not strong enough.
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: My point is Elin is different. She`s a victim. She`s a private person in many ways. And no matter what she does, not that she`ll be fine, she doesn`t have the same stake in the game as a public person, the public figure as Sandra Bullock.
LUDWIG: That`s true.
BEHAR: Right. Speaking of Sandra --
LUDWIG: But Sandra Bullock --
BEHAR: Wait, let me go to Sandra Bullock now as the allegedly now -- we must be very clear -- Radar Online is reporting that Jesse James may have up to 12 sex tapes and many are featuring Nazi memorabilia -- regalia, as they call it.
Now, if this is true and let`s say it`s true for the sake of argument. What if true? What does Sandra have to do to get out of this?
ADUBATO: We were talking about this in a makeup room where some of the most fascinating conversation takes place. It`s like a research, you know, focus group.
I said, "What`s the tipping point?" Meaning, does it matter who you cheat with? Does it matter what the situation is?
And my view is it really does. Here`s what I mean.
Cheating is cheating, it`s bad, ok, fine. But now you have sex tapes and say that`s the case. There`s Nazi insanity involved? Sandra Bullock now has more pressure on her than ever before to say, "I`m done, because if I don`t do that, am I silently somehow condoning those actions to stay in the marriage."
LUDWIG: Well, I know it is. Additionally, too -- and Sandra is a German American -- people are starting to wonder. Ok, if you don`t know about cheating, that`s pretty common. There are a lot of wives who are blindsided.
BEHAR: The wife is the last to know.
LUDWIG: The wife is the last to know. But when it comes to alleged neo-Nazi thought process or behavior or an alliance, is that really also something that you don`t know? So she has a double-whammy here because people are now --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wait. What does that have to do with the fact that she`s a German-American?
LUDWIG: No, no. I`m saying people are pointing these things out, and so --
ADUBATO: But why is that relevant? That`s what I`m not understanding. Why --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:: Well, because I guess the question is --
LUDWIG: She`s I think -- I think --
BEHAR: One at a time. Hold on, Mary Jo. Go ahead. Finish the thought.
LUDWIG: If you`re a German-American and your position on neo-Nazism. These are things people are raising behind closed doors. I`m not saying I am.
ADUBATO: All decent people would condemn it but --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: All right. Mary Jo, what did you want to throw in there?
EUSTACE: I sort of think that Sandra Bullock is a bit like Teflon. I really don`t think that this is going to entirely affect her career in a negative way at all. Maybe she had made the decision prior to the Nazi footage that she was leaving this person with the horrible betrayal that happened.
I mean thinking about her career at this point; her career will so bounce back. Everybody`s career in America can bounce. I don`t think that that`s an issue.
But the thing that is interesting is I know somebody who actually had a potential business project with Jesse James and went out to the Long Beach office and he said that quite -- you know, he was really open. There was Nazi memorabilia in his actual office. It wasn`t something that he was hiding.
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: Now I hear you.
BEHAR: Wait a minute.
ADUBATO: It does affect her. It does.
BEHAR: Hold on a second. Hold on.
Mary Jo, how did your friend react to that? Did anybody say anything?
EUSTACE: Actually, he happened to be Jewish. When he went to the meeting --
BEHAR: What did he say?
EUSTACE: Well, he said I felt that when I left he wanted to take out wet wipes and wipe down all the furniture. He said he didn`t know I was Jewish because of my last name because they hadn`t met in person. So when he went --
BEHAR: So the impression that you`re leaving is that the guy is not just somebody who collects this stuff.
EUSTACE: It`s not quiet.
BEHAR: The way people collect memorabilia as they call it. You know, the Aunt Jemima`s and all that, Oprah Winfrey`s collection, Whoopi Goldberg. This is different from that. You`re saying he admires it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If that`s true.
EUSTACE: Who will be collecting Nazi memorabilia for fun? If you have Nazi memorabilia in your office --
(CROSSTALK)
EUSTACE: -- there`s nothing to joke about.
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: Let me say this.
Listen, from an image and PR point of view as I look at it, if your husband or your wife is a Republican or a Democrat, you probably know it. If they have Nazi sympathies, allegedly, you have to know it.
EUSTACE: Exactly.
ADUBATO: And here`s the point. Sandra Bullock is going to be -- listen she`s a victim in this, but at the same time, when she sits on the couch with whomever and has an interview, or she`s interviewed by Joy, you`re not going to ask her, when did you know, what did you know specifically? And if she says I had no idea --
BEHAR: But she`s going to have to eventually give an interview because of her career.
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: I believe she has to.
LUDWIG: People are going to say horrible things about her and she`s going to have to come out and say, "This is who I really am," because at this point there are a lot of questions.
ADUBATO: But not that she`s German.
BEHAR: No, it has nothing to do with it.
LUDWIG: No, I didn`t say that it was just because she`s German.
ADUBATO: Did that make it worse? Does that make it worse?
LUDWIG: I don`t know. I don`t know if it does. It may.
ADUBATO: Ok. I think that any -- any decent person --
BEHAR: Listen, I have an Italian uncle who loved Mussolini. It`s possible.
ADUBATO: Wait. That was my Uncle Vinnie. Who was it in your family?
BEHAR: Same uncle.
ADUBATO: I knew we had the same uncle.
BEHAR: Wait a second. What was I going to say now -- I lost it.
ADUBATO: Your Uncle Vinnie did that.
BEHAR: Here`s the thing. I was reading one thing that sounded a little bit -- you know, I don`t know -- a little tricky that she`s not divorcing him so quickly. Maybe he has something on her. What do you think of that? And why doesn`t she just divorce the guy now?
EUSTACE: That`s why she came out with that statement.
LUDWIG: Well, how quick can a divorce happen?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Mary Jo says that`s why she came out with the statement, by the way.
EUSTACE: Well, that`s why she came out with this statement. It sounds like she`s getting kind of angry because the thing we forget about her, she`s done so much charity work in her community, for the hurricanes, for Haiti.
BEHAR: Right.
EUSTACE: She runs local businesses to help people, she helps schools quietly. I mean this woman has got a ton of integrity so, you know, I think --
LUDWIG: This is coming on the heels and I`m sure she`s -- I love her movies. I was thrilled to see her win the Academy Award. But this also comes on the heels of Tiger Woods. So when we say do we really know who we`re looking at in the media, or is everything just spin?
ADUBATO: But that`s him, not her.
LUDWIG: Here`s the deal. When you marry someone, whether you like it or not, they become an extension of who you are. I might not like it, but that`s the truth.
ADUBATO: I agree with that.
LUDWIG: Come on. You`re in PR. So people are going to say --
EUSTACE: But also you hear about these people who have second families in Brazil. You hear about marriages where the wives had no clue where these men have whole other families and whole other lives.
LUDWIG: Yes.
ADUBATO: Let`s not victimize her again, though Joy. Look. I don`t want to contradict myself because I do believe she`s going to have to do an interview not because he cheated on her because what apparently allegedly some of the stuff he was into, which has to do with who he really may be as a person and how much it says about her.
BEHAR: And how much did she know?
ADUBATO: Those are legitimate questions for someone with such a terrific, solid, impeccable public brand.
BEHAR: I know. It`s ironic, isn`t it?
All right. Let`s talk about Tiger a little bit. We heard from Tiger yesterday. Do you think we`ll ever hear from Jesse?
EUSTACE: I think Tiger`s thanking Jesse.
BEHAR: I do.
EUSTACE: Yes, exactly.
LUDWIG: I -- a probably. I mean, if he cares about his PR image with all of this coming up.
Listen, I put the picture of him with this alleged NAZI hat on my Facebook. I never get 60 hits on my Facebook in response to this.
BEHAR: You put the picture there?
LUDWIG: I put the picture up and I said tell me what you think about this? I got so many responses. Some people said, "Listen it might be out of context. We need to find out more about it."
ADUBATO: What`s the context it could be in?
LUDWIG: Well, I don`t know. I don`t know, but I`m just saying people have very strong reactions. So if he cares about his image, he`s definitely going to have to come out.
BEHAR: He`s not a comedian.
ADUBATO: Listen, Tiger Woods -- Tiger Woods --
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: -- wait a second.
EUSTACE: I`m just telling what some people said.
ADUBATO: Tiger Woods is the greatest American -- Tiger Woods has a chance. He was the greatest American brand -- sports brands that I know of. He has a chance to come back and do a lot of terrific things and never be the Tiger Woods of before -- but you don`t have to be -- how about a half of billion dollars, but Jesse James is not the same person.
BEHAR: No.
ADUBATO: And I`m not saying he had a bad brand before, but it wasn`t predicated on this image of perfection.
LUDWIG: Right. No.
ADUBATO: -- which in many ways that`s everything that Tiger is allegedly -- was allegedly about.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: And we love Tiger because of his golf. He was number one at golf --
BEHAR: Well, right.
ADUBATO: Not just that.
LUDWIG: -- and not because of the type of husband he was.
EUSTACE: Exactly.
BEHAR: Ok, Mary Jo.
EUSTACE: Exactly.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
EUSTACE: Well, I mean, Jesse -- Jesse James had a show "Jesse James is a Dead Man". I mean, he did, you know, he was married to a porn star. I mean, he does the --
(CROSSTALK)
ADUBATO: That`s bad?
EUSTACE: No, I`m not saying it`s bad or good. But I`m just saying even you know, from Sandra Bullock`s point of view, can you imagine marrying somebody who`s been married to a porn star? Wouldn`t that be kind of hard to live up to? I mean, there`s all sorts of things about his character.
ADUBATO: Well, not that he said that --
LUDWIG: Not on me, speak for yourself.
BEHAR: All right, go ahead. You have the last word, Steve. I have to go.
STEVE: I didn`t it understand it before.
BEHAR: Yes.
STEVE: Now that you said it. Who can live up to that standard? My wife`s watching.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you very much, guys.
Up next, when kids are born into wealth are they destined to become rich brats? I`ll investigate the Paris Hilton effect. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, John Edwards` mistress, Rielle Hunter agrees to her first TV interview with none other than Oprah Winfrey.
And was Michael Jackson responsible for his own death? Conflicting reports about the defense strategy for Jackson`s former doctor.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Raising kids in today`s complicated world is never easy, but what`s a parent to do when she realizes her teen has become a spoiled brat? One New York City mother, screenwriter Tracey Jackson, decided to teach her privileged 15-year-old daughter, Taylor, a lesson by shipping her off to the slums of Mumbai for a dose of reality. They made a documentary about it called "Lucky Ducks" which is out now on DVD. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACEY JACKSON, SCREENWRITER & DIRECTOR, "LUCKY DUCKS": UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going to write in your journal?
TAYLOR TEMPLETON, FEATURED IN DOCUMENTARY "LUCKY DUCK": Not right now. I`m going to study. Leave me alone.
TRACEY JACKSON: Purse, how much is that? $900. Put it away. Ok, juicy pants, plus $100. $12,018 worth of stuff lying on the floor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining me now are Taylor Templeton and Tracey Jackson. Hi. Hi, guys.
JACKSON: Hi.
BEHAR: Taylor, when you see yourself acting like that, what do you think? What do you say to yourself?
TEMPLETON: I`m grateful that I don`t continue doing that anymore.
BEHAR: Do you feel like it`s another person you`re watching?
TEMPLETON: Yes. I can`t believe that I was like that for a while.
BEHAR: How much of a brat do you think you were at the time?
TEMPLETON: I was definitively a brat.
BEHAR: On a scale of 10, how bratty were you?
TEMPLETON: Eight --
BEHAR: An eight --
TEMPLETON: -- seven.
BEHAR: And a shopaholic apparently too, spending a lot of money on stuff, right? Did it ever bring you any kind of feeling of satisfaction when you bought those $10,000 bags or whatever was you were buying?
TEMPLETON: Temporarily, but it wouldn`t last longer than a week at most.
BEHAR: It gives you a short high. And what was -- what do you think was the worst thing you ever did as a brat? Before we get to the good girl, the brat part now.
TEMPLETON: Ok. I guess not answering my phone all night, not coming home until the wee hours of the morning.
BEHAR: That`s hostile --
TEMPLETON: Yes.
BEHAR: -- to your parents. Yes, why were you so hostile to your parents?
TEMPLETON: Truthfully, now I really believe that it was because I really had no respect for myself for a long time. And if I couldn`t respect myself, there was no way I was going to respect my parents or anyone else.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. Did you ever get to the bottom of that, why you had no respect for yourself?
TEMPLETON: Eventually I did.
BEHAR: And what did you conclude?
TEMPLETON: I concluded that I really for a while wasn`t doing anything positive with my life. I had no passions, no extracurriculars that I really worked hard at, nothing that I was really interested. And I just didn`t think of myself highly, and I didn`t look in the mirror and see someone that I was proud of.
And so it took a while and took me finding myself and to really respect myself. And then after I was able to do that, I could respect my parents and then --
BEHAR: I see.
TEMPLETON: -- other people, too.
BEHAR: So -- so for a while, Tracey, she was acting out.
JACKSON: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Badly. So where were you in all that?
JACKSON: Well, I mean, I was there. You know, I mean, the press likes to paint that I was a neglectful mother. Things I read -- I was there. I was on top of it. I think she had probably the earliest curfew of almost all of her friends. You know, I mean, we`re -- we would have dinner together. I mean, I was doing the right family things as far as I was concerned, but -- or I thought.
But, you know, when kids at a certain point start acting out and then they reach a level of hysteria. And then, I can really reach a level of hysteria very quickly. It became a very hysterical kind of household. So I would yell at her and she would yell back. And it would be 4:00 in the morning and I didn`t know where she was.
BEHAR: Where is father in all of this? You`re divorced.
JACKSON: Well, I`m divorced from her father, but she`s been raised by her stepfather so he was there. But you know, it`s 4:00 in the morning, it`s like no one can really -- when the kids -- this is the great thing about cell phones. Everyone says you can get in touch with your kid.
BEHAR: Yes.
JACKSON: You can only get in touch with your kid if your kid actually answers the phone.
BEHAR: Or if they turn it on? Yes.
JACKSON: Yes, or they say I`m at someone else`s house.
BEHAR: They can see who`s calling, they may not want to answer you.
JACKSON: Oh you called 400 times.
BEHAR: But what is the over privileged part got to do with all of this. Because you sounds like -- you sound like you had a lot of money at your disposal. And you were supplying it, right?
JACKSON: There is no question.
BEHAR: Yes.
JACKSON: I mean, she didn`t have as much money as some of her friends, but she certainly had everything and more than she wanted.
BEHAR: Did you just say yes to everything?
JACKSON: I said yes to too much for too long. And then the flipside of that, too, Joy, is, though, when you say no -- and this is a big problem I think that we really explore in the film, boomer parents hate to say no to their kids.
BEHAR: Why?
JACKSON: Because they want to be loved by their kids. And we`re this generation that wants to be loved by our kids. In our generation, it`s no was no and you earned your parents` love. I think that there`s a lot of guilty parenting and I think there`s a lot of moms who work.
BEHAR: Well, guilty parenting, that`s an interesting subject because I guess parents feel like they`re not there enough. So they over compensate for their absence by throwing goods at a child. Possibly the emptiness that you felt and the low self, maybe it was coming from that.
We`re going to have more to talk about when we come back. Don`t go anywhere. We`ll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Tracey Jackson and her daughter who is featured in the new documentary about spoiled teens, "Lucky Ducks". Do you have any qualms about exposing yourself in this film the way -- well, your mother did it really -- how do you feel about that?
TEMPLETON: Initially I was very upset about it, extremely hesitant and people ask me all the time, how are you ok with your mom doing this? Even now still when people see the articles that come out, they keep questioning how were you ok?
Truthfully, it hurts a little bit. It sucks seeing that kind of stuff, but at the same time I`m really happy with the message that the movie gets across.
BEHAR: You`re providing a service?
TEMPLETON: Yes. If my journey can help other people and help them know that they`re not alone, then I`m fine looking like a brat. I`m comfortable with who I am.
BEHAR: What were the reactions of your friends? What do your friends say?
TEMPLETON: They supported me 100 percent.
BEHAR: Are they bratty the way you were, your friends?
TEMPLETON: My friends now?
BEHAR: Yes.
TEMPLETON: No. My friends now are the most incredible people.
BEHAR: So did you change your friends? You changed them. So all of it is peer pressure too.
Now, you were saying during the break that you get some flack from the press, like you got something from "The Post" yesterday.
JACKSON: Oh, yes. We`ve been in "The Post" everyday this week.
BEHAR: What`s their main criticism? That you were an enabler?
JACKSON: Well, I think the main criticism is if you haven`t seen the documentary, which doesn`t just chart her being spoiled, it charts really what it means to be a parent, what you take from your own childhood and then put off on your kids and how I had to come to grips.
It`s not just her journey, actually, because what the movie is, it`s my journey as well. I had to change for her to change. And I think if you look at your kid or any dysfunctional relationship and say, that person has to change, you`re in denial. I think that you look in the mirror and you say, what part of me is enabling this to happen?
BEHAR: And now that -- now it`s Andrea Pizer in "The Post" wrote this negative thing about you, right.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: So then what did you do about it? This was yesterday.
TEMPLETON: Well, I was just hurt because for me it was really hard being filmed under these conditions. I struggled with a lot of really personal things and I allowed cameras to be living with me for two years and that was really hard. And I was doing it for something positive.
I wanted to show people that they weren`t alone and try and do something good. And so for her to bash me and say all these negative things is really hurtful. I wrote her an e-mail and explained to her and I just explained to her. I just said, "I want to inform you, I understand that you might think that this is something to joke about, but to me, it is not. I did something that I`m really proud of, and I really hope that" -- knowing because I read her bio and I said, "I read in your bio that you were a mother too. And you should understand, just as everyone else that growing up is a difficult thing."
BEHAR: That was good. You see you backed your mother up. But just as a last word, what would you say to kids out there who are acting the way you were acting?
TEMPLETON: I would say that the main thing is just acceptance. It`s a matter of accepting that there`s something wrong, and not --
BEHAR: That you`re acting out something?
TEMPLETON: As soon as you begin to accept it and not be in denial of it, that it exists, then you can begin to change. And you have to want to. And you have to want to go out there and do something and see something -- see positive results over a long term.
BEHAR: It`s the key it to every sort of behavioral thing, is know that you`re doing something wrong first and admit it to yourself.
Thanks very much, ladies.
Up next, bad news for John Edwards, home wrecker Rielle Hunter will be chatting with Oprah. I`ll have the details in a bit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Well, our girl Oprah Winfrey has scored another big interview, and this time it`s with John Edwards` mistress and baby mama Rielle Hunter. It won`t be the first time Rielle exposed herself on camera, but it will be her first TV interview.
Joining me now to discuss this and more are Laura Bennet, former "PROJECT RUNWAY" star and author of "Didn`t I Feed You Yesterday: A Mother`s Guide To Sanity in Stilettos". Dan Butler, the star -- one of the stars of the off-Broadway comedy the Irish curse and Alicia Quarles, AP Entertainment editor.
OK Alicia.
ALICIA QUARLES, ASSOCIATED PRESS ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR: Yes.
BEHAR: Is this just a big get for Oprah?
QUARLES: This is a huge get for Oprah. I think this is going to be blockbuster rating. I think most of read that print article that Rielle Hunter did. But we want to know more, we want to know who is this woman that took down John Edwards and this cute nuisance to Elizabeth Edwards. Tell us more?
BEHAR: So you don`t think it`s an old story at this point because you know Jesse James and Sandra Bullock threw it off the headlines.
QUARLES: It`s not an old story because every time you think you know everything about the situation, something new comes out.
BEHAR: Yes.
QUARLES: And also we really haven`t heard that much from Rielle so I say bring it on. It`s going to be must see TV. And you know that Oprah is going to give it to her. It`s going to be good.
BEHAR: I don`t know why she didn`t do my show Laura. Do you?
LAURA BENNET, AUTHOR, "DIDN`T I FEED YOU YESTERDAY?": I don`t - you know the funniest part for me is why she chose Oprah as opposed to Barbara Walters.
BEHAR: Yes.
BENNET: Because she said Oprah is spiritual and she will get me. So I`m wondering - I`m wondering if this woman is so spiritual, what is she doing hanging out with the most morally bankrupt politician almost in all of American history.
BEHAR: Good point, isn`t it, Dan?
BENNET: Very contradictory.
DAN BUTLER, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: Speaking for the men, speaking for all the men --
BEHAR: Yes I mean but isn`t the hot interview right now with Sandra Bullock?
QUARLES: Why are you going back to that?
BEHAR: Because I don`t know if this is the biggest, hottest interview to get right now.
QUARLES: Well I think she didn`t come on your show because she`s probably be afraid of you. I mean think about how Oprah --
BEHAR: Why I`m not spiritual?
QUARLES: You have a great aura around the table.
(CROSSTALK)
BENNET: did you see the aura? There`s an aura.
BUTLER: You have a great aura around you, halo.
BENNET: It`s purple.
BEHAR: Yes did you see the aura -
BENNET: You have an aura.
BEHAR: There`s an aura -
BENNET: Did you see the photos of her in "GQ."
BUTLER: Oh yes.
BENNET: I mean she said she cried when she saw the photos. And I`m like didn`t you remember that you didn`t have your pants on?
BEHAR: That was creepy.
(CROSSTALK)
BUTLER: With the stuffed toys.
BENNET: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean do you think that - do you think that she will distance herself from these risque photos because you know she`s got puppets in there, it`s very strange.
BENNET: It`s weird.
QUARLES: She`s trying to - oh my god I can`t believe these photos came out, it`s like hello honey when you pose, naked next to Elmo, I mean what were you thinking like you know this is going to happen.
BENNET: Maybe she was wearing pants and they just Photoshop them off.
BEHAR: Yes, now Dan you are an actor.
BUTLER: Yes.
BEHAR: And OK Aaron Sore Kin he`s planning on - he`s optioning the movie rights to the politician -
BUTLER: Oh right.
BEHAR: The book by Andrew Young.
BUTLER: Yes.
BEHAR: Let`s cast it.
BENNET: OK.
BEHAR: Rielle, I have my vote for somebody.
QUARLES: Melanie Griffith.
BEHAR: Melanie Griffith.
BENNET: No.
BUTLER: I think she`s terrific, but a younger one.
BEHAR: All right, what do you think?
QUARLES: Paris Hilton is (inaudible).
BEHAR: Paris Hilton, Paris Hilton -- she can`t act.
QUARLES: I would believe - I know but -
BENNET: Nicholas -
BEHAR: I know but you know who is the perfect one?
BUTLER: Who?
BEHAR: Ann Heche. Also spiritual. Hello. Memememe mamemammy. Come on, now. OK. Elizabeth, I say Kathy Bates.
QUARLES: I said that too.
BEHAR: She`s on a rampage, Kathy Bates could play it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And Rosie O`Donnell could do it.
BUTLER: Ryan Gosling. Ryan Gosling is one of my favorite actors.
BEHAR: Ryan Gosling played John Edwards?
BUTLER: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know not for nothing, Ryan Gosling is cute, but not as gorgeous as John Edwards. I say maybe Rob Lowe or Brad Pitt or what about Tom Cruise? What about Tom Cruise?
BENNET: Too short. Dennis Quaid. Nothing against Tom.
BEHAR: Tom Cruise can stand on an apple box.
BUTLER: Yes.
QUARLES: Apple box, won`t -
BEHAR: Would you see the movie? No.
QUARLES: No.
BEHAR: OK, next topic, OK, next topic, remember Dr. Conrad Murray? OK, he`s the doctor accused of causing Michael Jackson`s death. Remember this? OK. Now TMZ is reporting that the defense is planning on arguing that it wasn`t the doctor who killed Michael Jackson with Propofol injection, it was the king of pop himself. But why would Jackson need a private doctor if he was taking care of the injections himself? OK what do you think of that, Alicia?
QUARLES: I think this is so far out of left field that you can`t even say that this is a probable defense. Again we`re months and months away from the trial. But come on, the man probably wasn`t shooting up himself, I`m sure. Why pay a doctor $100,000 a month, what`s the point of that?
BEHAR: Uh huh, well blaming the victim is a good idea isn`t it -
QUARLES: Yes.
BEHAR: When the guy is dead, what`s he going to do?
QUARLES: Yes, it`s true. But all his fans around the world are going to be a little teed off around about this one.
BENNET: Well that`s what I think too. And obviously it`s a legal maneuver because assisted suicide is going to be a lesser crime than negligent homicide.
BEHAR: Assisted suicide oh so it`s a Kevorkian thing.
BENNET: Yes but I -- this is what I proposed. We offer Murray immunity just to tell the truth, because that`s what everyone wants to know.
QUARLES: Yes.
BENNET: We need to know - and then let some Michael Jackson impersonator pick him off because at least you know what would happen --
BEHAR: You like that idea Dan? What do you think Dan?
BUTLER: I just have trouble talking about suicide anyway. But I think it was sort of a cheap blow.
BENNET: It was a cheap blow. It was horrible. In the end, doesn`t everyone just really want to know what happened?
QUARLES: People do. But I think if you offer him immunity and say that he is really culpable in this instance, you have the family, you have fans that want justice. So you really need to play it out in the court of law and get to the truth.
BEHAR: But he`s still licensed to practice, this guy? Isn`t that sort of surprising.
BENNET: That`s frightening.
BEHAR: Yes.
QUARLES: Yes but his legal team says that he has to be licensed to practice in order for him to pay for the legal team, but it`s scary he can still practice medicine. But again, innocent until proven guilty.
BENNET: it wasn`t a judge that allowed him to keep his license. I think that once the medical boards of California you know or Texas step in.
BEHAR: Well listen to this, the defense may use the Coca-Cola defense. Like the Twinkie defense, you know? The Coca-Cola made me do it. They are saying Jackson continuously drank Coca-Cola and even though it was bad for him, so that -- Propofol you need a -- an anesthesiologist around, Coca-Cola. Let`s see what are the similarities?
BENNET: Yes, no I always go for narcotics when I`m looking for diet Coke and it`s just not on hand.
QUARLES: Joy I use to drink three Red Bulls a day. That didn`t leave me to shooting up and snorting, like come on, that`s just so out in left field, we are throwing that one out of the window.
BEHAR: OK, let`s talk about another nut case. Heidi Montag infamous day of plastic surgery may have been even more intense than we initially thought. Now she said her back was scooped out, she`s had all those surgeries, though she can`t describe what was done. Did they scope out her brain along with her frontal chords, that`s the question, Dan do you know anything about a back scoop?
BUTLER: No, I know very little about her. I live in Vermont and we don`t watch TV so I --
BEHAR: No back scooping up in Vermont?
BUTLER: No back scooping up in Vermont, no, no.
BEHAR: OK what do you think Alicia do you ever hear of anything?
QUARLES: I think also this is shocking. She also said in that same interview that she can`t hug anyone anymore because she`s afraid to hurt her boobs.
BEHAR: I know.
QUARLES: And she`s can`t jog anymore - it`s like hello, Heidi when you go from an A to F, that`s what happens, I mean this girl - enough already.
BENNET: And she says she`s too fragile. But weren`t you fragile when you weighed 75 pounds before you had that done?
BEHAR: She`s had gigantic boobs now right so when you scoop your back out, doesn`t that automatically push your boobs out. Why do you have to increase your boobs?
BUTLER: It`s mind -
QUARLES: That`s a back scoop. I mean this is the last season of "THE HILLS." What`s a back scope?
BEHAR: Well let`s get serious about this girl for a second.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean why would someone -- OK, let`s not. But I mean I like her. I have to tell you, I think she`s kooky. But I like her. I`ve interviewed her a couple of times and I always thought you know it was a big act that she was putting on. I don`t think it`s an act though. Now I think she`s in deep trouble.
BENNET: Someone actually I read where they said that her back scoop is actually her interpretation of what was just liposuction done from the bra area.
BEHAR: Oh so they just took some back fat out? The girl has no fat.
BENNET: No.
QUARLS: And I think she and Spencer are smart like a fox. I mean that they`re spending their 15 minutes of fame by any means possible. It`s the last season of "THE HILLS". They are becoming irrelevant so now she`s claiming back scoop and boobs hurting all kinds of stuff.
BEHAR: So that`s it -
QUARLES: That`s it.
BEHAR: They don`t have anything to hang onto stay on television.
QUARLES: That`s right.
BEHAR: And so -
QUARLES: That`s why mom said get an education.
BEHAR: Yes get an education. Learn to type is what they told me.
(LAUGHTER)
BENNET: But it worked for you.
BEHAR: Listen it worked for me. All these computers things now, it`s good. I`m a very fast typer. Are her 15 minutes of fame over then Alicia?
QUARLES: After this "THE HILLS." I say they are, you know, we`ve had a Heidi and Spencer`s time to move on to the next celebrity reality couple, yes.
BEHAR: Dan, do you know who we`re talking about?
(LAUGHTER)
BUTLER: Someone will fill, someone will fill me in later.
BEHAR: OK and Laura, do you think her 15 minutes are up? And who is going to play Heidi in the movie?
(LAUGHTER)
BENNET: I think we`ll give that opportunity to Heidi herself.
QUARLES: Heidi can play herself.
BEHAR: Who will play Heidi before she got her back scooped? That`s the question. Thanks everyone. Laura`s book is called "Didn`t I Feed You Yesterday?" and if you`re in New York be sure to catch Dan in the off- Broadway comedy "The Irish Curse." Which I now know what that means, you`ll be interested to find out for those of you. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Three teenagers charged in connection with the suicide of 15- year-old Phoebe Prince were no-shows in court today. Their lawyers were there for them instead. It kind of begs the question, where was all this adult intervention when Phoebe Prince was being tormented?
Here to discuss this are Darby O`Brien a South Hadley High School parent who is also a friend of Prince family, Rachel Simmons, author of "Odd Girl Out" and Belisa Vranich a clinical psychologist. Welcome to the show. Darby, let me start with you. The D.A. says that school members knew that Phoebe was being bullied for months. The school denies that. What is the truth ?
DARBY O`BRIEN, SOUTH HADLEY HIGH SCHOOL PARENT: Well the Ann Prince`s sister, Ailen (ph) met with the school even before the school year started. She had mentioned to a vice principal at the school that Phoebe was susceptible to bullying and so look out for her. So the vice principal mentioned that to a counselor, who was supposed to speak to her when she entered the school and that discussion happened about three months later.
BEHAR: I see. So do you think the school looked the other way? Is that what you`re saying?
O`BRIEN: I think, yes the school has always looked the other way. I mean Ann Prince, the mother, was actually in with the school and spoke to them in early November and asked whether her daughter was safe from a gang of girls that were tormenting her. She was back again in - she was back again -- the superintendent claims that they knew about the bullying the week that Phoebe Prince died, and yet, the mother was in the week before asking the same questions.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. So let me ask you girls and also, you know, Darby, you ladies, if the school knew, should they be held responsible for the suicide of this girl?
RACHEL SIMMONS, AUTHOR, "ODD GIRL OUT": Look, I think we expect our workplaces to provide a non-hostile environment so we can do our jobs. The same is fair to expect of schools. They`re not just there to teach kids they are there to make kids safe to learn. So somebody, it can`t just be the kids that are held responsible here.
BEHAR: Right. So the school is responsible for the safety of the children?
SIMMONS: Absolutely. How are you going to learn if you`re not safe?
BELISA VRANICH, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that we`d like it to be safe there, but the reality is that our schools are not safe at all and that they are packed, the staff is, you know, at their wit`s end, and they really aren`t safe and there aren`t places -- especially public schools where kids are learning. So I would love they`re safe, but the reality is that they were not.
SIMMONS: OK but the story is why did this mother go to the school and why didn`t people care? The real story is that people don`t take this behavior seriously? Bullies are not just people who are kicking your butt and taking your lunch money. They`re psychologically aggressive. A lot of that behavior is not called bullying. And so people ignore it.
BEHAR: What is it called?
SIMMONS: It`s called kids being kids. It`s a rite of passage. It`s part of growing up. It`s not called bullying and violence, which is what it is.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
VRANICH: And the other thing is tolerating the bullying is considered something that`s normal. You know you tolerate the bullying, you get to be stronger by tolerating that.
SIMMONS: Right.
VRANICH: And they are actually should be a different world that`s even stronger than bullying now because it`s sort of gotten to the point that it is extreme. It`s not just teasing.
BEHAR: Well when -- when I was a kid I was bullied but I didn`t tell anybody because you didn`t want to be a snitch either. You know it`s very -- it`s a tough situation.
SIMMONS: It is. But it`s also an issue with parents, too. I mean when we were kids we were much more responsible for what we did. We don`t see that anymore.
BEHAR: OK let`s talk about the kids` parents, Darby. Nine kids are charged, is it possible that none of those parents knew anything?
O`BRIEN: I think what`s surprising here is that the high school principal and superintendent had said early on that this was cyber bullying, which made it difficult for the school to track.
BEHAR: But it wasn`t just cyber bullying?
O`BRIEN: No, it was in fact very little of the bullying here was cyber bullying because the district attorney came out and said that it was secondary and it was old school verbal bullying which is even more alarming because it was loud and constant for over three months, and it was in classrooms, hallways, the cafeteria, the library. So a lot of people heard this and didn`t do anything. In fact a substitute teacher who has been in and out of the high school who made a comment yesterday that she was aware this was going on. And if the officials missed this, they were just not competent.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
O`BRIEN: And they`ve been clueless since the beginning.
BEHAR: Yes now -
O`BRIEN: So what the parents knew, I don`t know.
BEHAR: You don`t know?
O`BRIEN: No because I think a lot of this happened, you know, in school, and I`m not sure these kids went home and talked about it.
BEHAR: So do you think the parents are to blame?
VRANICH: I think absolutely they`re to blame. I think the school needs to be a safe place, but the parents are responsible for teaching their kids compassion, empathy, social skills and just how to treat each other in a decent way.
BEHAR: How does a kid become a bully do you think?
VRANICH: By not being taught compassion -
BEHAR: What happen -
VRANICH: And actually by being bullied.
BEHAR: But isn`t compassion something you just grow up with -- you see it around you.
VRANICH: Absolutely not.
BEHAR: Your parents treat you compassionately and you respond?
VRANICH: Exactly, exactly, you learn about seeing it.
SIMMONS: Yes but bullies also get rewarded in schools. Again these are not excluded kids. The kids in South Hadley -
BEHAR: I know they were not.
SIMMONS: Are high-functioning, they`re successful, they`re socially intelligent and they benefit from bullying because they get control, they get social privileges, they get relationships. So this is very hard to talk kids out of doing.
VRANICH: And they probably have parents that are using bullying to get thing of their own, whether it be in the house or outside the house.
BEHAR: Darby, what were you going to say to me?
O`BRIEN: Well you know, the other thing that should be happening is parents of the kids who have been charged. Because these are probably the toughest charges that anybody has handed out in the country. Should be as angry as the rest of the community because the school officials didn`t stop them. Didn`t step in. So you have ten kids, Phoebe Prince is gone, and you`ve got these nine other kids whose lives are ruined because the officials didn`t do what everybody expects them to do. Time after time after time again. You know the other thing that`s crazy is after what the district attorney said and handed down those charges in a press conference, the South Hadley School Committee did not hold an emergency session and has yet to meet and give answers to the community.
BEHAR: And why is that? Are they afraid that they`re going to be accused?
O`BRIEN: They`ve been running for cover since the fall, and now they`ve got nowhere to hide. They have thought forever this would be swept under the rug and go away.
BEHAR: OK everyone, sit tight we`ll have more on this tragic story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. And we`re talking about the teens charged with bullying a classmate to death. So, Darby, why do you think Phoebe was the target of all this bullying? What was it that was happening?
O`BRIEN: Well, she was attractive, an underclassmen. I think she messed with the cool kids and they took it out on her.
BEHAR: So they were jealous?
O`BRIEN: Yes, I think there was probably a lot of that.
BEHAR: And also she came from Ireland --
O`BRIEN: Right, right. So she was new to the school. I mean I think another thing that happened was that she was not from a well known or well- connected family because I think that things would have been different if that had happened to you know a well established family`s kid in South Hadley.
BEHAR: Why what would have happened then?
O`BRIEN: I think they would have been all over it. I think that the next day, the principal admits that he flubbed it for the first two weeks and then what he did, what I`ve never heard of before, he did this outside- in investigation. He talked to people who knew less about her first and basically what he was doing was letting the bullies get away because they didn`t -- they expelled one kid. And the week they talk about when they were aware of this and they took tough action they suspended one kid for one day.
SIMMONS: But there was something else that Phoebe did. And Phoebe dared to date an upper classman who was popular.
O`BRIEN: Right, right.
SIMMONS: She rocked the boat. And that`s actually really what went down here. Upper classmen girls went after her because she threatened the social order. And part of the story here is that girls grow up in a culture where on reality television shows women are competing over men and basically treating each other like second-class citizens. That`s what you saw play out where the senior girls felt like they had the right to dehumanize Phoebe because she dared to date an older boy.
BEHAR: Are you blaming reality shows?
SIMMONS: I`m not well - I like to -- I don`t think we have to blame anybody. I think the system is broken. And we have to look at the system. It`s not one person or one group that`s responsible here.
BEHAR: So there`s a kind of a peer pressure going on also there.
SIMMONS: It`s a culture within a school. It`s a culture among teenagers. The media definitely plays a role. But I don`t think Phoebe`s family status, while it might have helped, is really going to resist anything once you get into the peer culture of a school. And that`s really where we need to start working.
BEHAR: Uh huh what makes one group so mean and the other group not though? I mean, some kids a clique, they`re in a clique and another is in another clique and this is the mean clique and this is not. So why is this the mean group? What is it about?
VRANICH: I think you`ll see that change. I think you`ll see the power will go from one kid to another kid. Sometimes you`ll have two or kids, teens that will actually bounce things off each other. It will escalate depending on what they`re daring one to do to the other. So I think there`s always movement within the groups and within who has the power and the authority.
BEHAR: Do any of you think this case is going to start an anti- bullying campaign in schools?
SIMMONS: Well, there are anti-bullying campaigns all over America. I think the tragic outcome of this case brought it to the spotlight which I`m happy to see. But frankly schools all over the country are fighting every day to keep their kids safe. And that`s why South Hadley isn`t unique.
BEHAR: Maybe schools need security guards everywhere.
SIMMONS: We don`t need security guards and we don`t need courts. I don`t think that is the issue. I think that we need education. I think schools need to spend real time teaching kids non violent conflict resolutions --
BEHAR: How about the parents teaching their children -- to be a little bit more sensitive to a child who comes in from another country who`s a little scared and who happens to be dating one of the guys? I mean what is this --
SIMMONS: If you invite parents to back to school night they`re there in a flash, they`re there ten minutes early. If you have an anti-bullying workshop, you have the parents of the targets coming. Make those meetings mandatory.
BEHAR: Mandatory.
SIMMONS: That`s right.
VRANICH: And Joy having worked as a school psychologist, often you will call the parents in and they won`t come in and when they do come in they`re very aggressive and they`re very confrontational. They`re not working with you.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you very much, everybody, for joining me. And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
