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Joy Behar Page
Steven Seagal Accused of Inappropriate Sexual Conduct; Interview with Lewis Black
Aired April 19, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, more women accuse actor, Steven Seagal, of inappropriate sexual conduct. I thought this guy was a follower of the Dalai Lama; sounds like he`s a lot more interested in booty than Buddha.
Then according to a new survey, four out of five Americans don`t trust the federal government. But how much stock can you put in that considering half the country doesn`t believe in evolution.
And he`s a well-educated, successful, angry white guy. Is he a Tea partier? No, he`s a comedian. The hilarious Lewis Black joins me.
All that and more right now.
When a former assistant of actor Steven Seagal accused him of sexual misconduct, it looked like another case of "he said, she said". But new reports say he`s been accused numerous times by other women. Then he can get more of a "he said, she said, she said, she said".
Here to talk about this story and more are TV personality Ereka Vetrini, comedian and pod caster Dave Rubin and senior editor of "In Touch Weekly", Kim Serafin.
Now, his former assistant, her name is Kayden Nguyen -- I think it must be a Vietnamese name because I can`t pronounce -- she said that he sexually assaulted her and kept her against her will at his Louisiana home. And there are reports that more former employees are coming forward, too.
Isn`t that kidnapping if he kept her against her will like that and why wasn`t this reported as a criminal act?
KIM SERAFIN, SENIOR EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Yes. Well, I mean now she`s obviously bringing this suit forward. But yes. Now there`s more women coming forward as well, including a report that Jenny McCarthy had mad some comments back in 1998 to Movie Line that she had an incident with Steven Seagal.
She went in for an audition. He then told her to take off her dress. She ran out crying. And I think when you hear Jenny McCarthy, someone that everyone knows, someone that everyone trusts, say something like this, I think it`s even more credibility than just nine names -- faceless women.
BEHAR: Right.
DAVE RUBIN, COMEDIAN: It seems to me that the crazy part of this is Steven Seagal sounds like the bad guy in a Steven Seagal movie. Like he would be rescuing the girl being trapped by the guy and now he`s that guy.
EREKA VETRINI, TV PERSONALITY: It`s not even a trap -- you have a point. I mean, Joy, trapped -- really? I want to know more about that. How are you trapped and held against your will? What does that mean?
RUBIN: She`s blaming the girl.
VETRINI: I`m not blaming the girl. I`m just saying there`s more to the story.
BEHAR: It was at his house. It was at his home.
VETRINI: Right, it was --
BEHAR: So you don`t trust the story? But doesn`t the Jenny McCarthy give it a little more credibility?
VETRINI: And even more credibility I think is the five statements from the former employees because they`re going on record in saying so. So even if this girl`s credibility`s out the window, there`s something else to the story.
SERAFIN: Right. And there was apparently a Penthouse article in 1998 also with women saying similar things; another lawsuit apparently in 2001 with similar allegations.
RUBIN: So he made Jenny McCarthy take her shirt off? That was the idea. He wanted her to take the shirt off.
BEHAR: She said, "I just started crying". Jenny McCarthy said, "I just started crying and said, `Rent my Playboy video, you a-hole,` and ran out to the car." So it was -- sounds like a bit of an assault.
RUBIN: Yes, but how many take your shirt off on the casting couch? I mean it would have been weird if --
VETRINI: Does that happen to you all the time?
RUBIN: That`s how I got here. Thank you, Joy, by the way. And also, it`s like -- it would have been weird if he would have been like, "Put this big jacket on." That would have been odd on the casting couch. But not take your shirt off.
BEHAR: It is true, he has a point. It`s like the casting couch, I mean it`s as old as everybody else in the business.
SERAFIN: I know but this woman -- this assistant was hired to do a job, not to be a sex toy as she`s saying he though she was supposed to do in his office. That`s obviously sexual harassment and she should be suing.
RUBIN: Well, assistant/sex toy.
BEHAR: That`s too much. Come on.
VETRINI: I think this girl has a lot to deal with right now, because the lawyers on his camp are full force. And now for the first time, this is what I think is interesting. Her lawyer is firing back. So I feel like this lawyer, William -- he`s got a really weird name; it`s like Waldo or something. He must have something.
BEHAR: Seagal`s lawyer is pointing out that this girl was on the "Tyra Banks Show" last year claiming to be a lipstick lesbian. What do you think? Does that make her even hotter?
VETRINI: I don`t even know what that is Joy. I don`t even know what a lipstick lesbian is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s the pretty one.
SERAFIN: It`s interesting, because when you do hear that someone has been on a reality show -- and I`ll ask Ereka what she thinks of this -- but you know, people do assume something. Like with the Richard Heene incident. Like, when I heard that balloon boy`s dad had been on a reality show, even before the whole thing happened with the "LARRY KING" show, I immediately thought something is up.
So I think the fact that was on a reality show, it shouldn`t play against her if this really did happen but I think if you are on a reality show, people do automatically assume, maybe they`re just looking for some attention.
VETRINI: It`s so very different. I think she was obviously seeking celebrity and that`s why she did it. But lipstick lesbian would clearly be more aggravated by these sort sexual harassments than --
BEHAR: Maybe.
SERAFIN: I think anyone might be aggravated by sexual harassment.
BEHAR: I wouldn`t. I wouldn`t.
Let`s change topics. The lingerie model who has been seen in the company of Charlie Sheen insists they`re just friends. Show of hands now around here -- how many people think it`s even possible for Charlie Sheen to be in a platonic relationship with a lingerie model?
VETRINI: No way.
BEHAR: Hands.
RUBIN: I`m sitting on my hand.
BEHAR: What about that? You know about this, Kim.
SERAFIN: Right. Well, of course "In Touch" reported that Charlie has been going to and from this woman`s home wearing the famous mustache -- everyone has seen this picture now. And that they were carrying on.
BEHAR: We`re looking at it now on the cover.
SERAFIN: Yes, the mustache. Everyone keeps one of these in their car, they just throw on in case the paparazzi are following them.
BEHAR: He`s like sort of a Wayne Newton terrorist. Go ahead.
SERAFIN: But you know the interesting thing is that because of his bad boy history, people are going to assume that this is true. Obviously he does have a history with prostitutes, with other women. People do assume this is true.
Ironically, this also helps him; because of his bad-boy image, none of this has hurt his career.
VETRINI: If Tiger Woods had a bad boy image, it wouldn`t have hurt his career.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wait a minute. Isn`t the show on hiatus, the "Two and a Half Men"?
(CROSSTALK)
SERAFIN: No, but after the allegations, after everything happened at the Christmas Eve incident, it had some of the highest ratings ever. And you know this won`t hurt his career.
BEHAR: I know. But it`s being canceled. So at the end of the day it`s over.
VETRINI: I don`t understand. He`s doing a good -- he`s trying to paint a picture he`s doing a good deed.
BEHAR: It`s not being canceled I`ve been told.
SERAFIN: He was negotiating his contract and he`s apparently asking for --
(CROSSTALK)
SERAFIN: We don`t know if he`s coming back. But note, the show gets huge ratings and he`s the highest-paid sitcom star.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
VETRINI: I was just -- he`s saying he did a good deed by visiting this former lingerie model/escort, but he`s leaving rehab, he`s trying to regain his trust of his wife. What is he doing? Why would we believe that he`s doing anything good?
BEHAR: He`s claiming that he met her in rehab and that she was having trouble and he went to her house to give her some support.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: With a bouquet of flowers which led to the two to kiss. He says that it was a totally friendly thing. Maybe it`s step 13 in the 12-step program.
RUBIN: I don`t even know -- at first, the outfit -- I feel like maybe he was secretly going to acting class. That seems like what he should probably be doing with his extra time.
SERAFIN: He`s good on that show.
VETRINI: He`s having to play himself on that show.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But it`s possible, you know what I mean? Isn`t it possible that he was just supporting a friend? I mean he`s not stupid. He knows that the paparazzi is watching him at all times.
(CROSSTALK)
VETRINI: That was a really nice little story she painted there. You know he was playing with the media. He put on the mustache as a joke. It`s very believable. I couldn`t believe it if we didn`t know who he was.
Right now Denise is sitting back --
BEHAR: But he`s funny, too. You know, I think it`s a joke. I think he`s doing it to play with the paparazzi. My opinion. Who knows?
Let`s go to the next story. Finally, TMZ is reporting that Jesse James` mistress, Bombshell McGee -- wait let me get my (INAUDIBLE) out for this one -- is teaming up with former Tiger Woods mistress, Jenny Jungers - - whatever her name is -- to host a reality show about cheating. What are they calling it, "Extreme Home Wrecker Makeover"?
The show is actually being called "Celebrity cheaters" and the idea is to catch celebrity cheaters with their pants down. These two are perfect for the job, aren`t they.
VETRINI: I love it.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean that`s a real good match.
RUBIN: First off, it`s about time that a Nazi got a reality show, don`t you think?
BEHAR: Yes.
RUBIN: It seems like, we`ve been waiting for that --
BEHAR: Way over time.
RUBIN: And then with a woman who slept with a black man and then it`s like -- that`s ratings.
SERAFIN: Is anyone surprised? I mean all of these women who have been associated with Tiger or associated with Jesse are getting a lot of perks out of claiming that they have these relationships. They`re even just appearing on the "Today Show" or --
BEHAR: Does that bother you?
RUBIN: No.
BEHAR: It doesn`t bother you at all.
VETRINI: I am not against them. I think that the men in a situation, the husbands, the fathers, they are responsible. Go for it. I`ll watch it, too. I`m not going to, you know --
BEHAR: Do you think that they`ll go out and find the cheating husbands themselves?
VETRINI: I hope so.
BEHAR: I`m intrigued by this already. Aren`t you? They have to make a living anyway.
RUBIN: I`ll sleep with Tiger Woods if it will get me a show already. Tiger, I`m putting that out there. Wherever you are Tiger.
BEHAR: Isn`t it like fastest way to get a TV gig is to be a mistress of some famous person now. It`s like the short cut.
SERAFIN: To do anything bad -- I mean even the White House party crashers, the reality show. If you do anything that makes you infamous, you`re going to get a reality TV show offer. So it makes sense that these two women are getting offers.
It`s actually just being pitched now.
BEHAR: It`s being pitched. Do you think they`ll get picked up?
VETRINI: That`s the curious thing. I think it would be -- I think logistically it`s difficult. These are guys with huge circles of friends. Jamie Junger, she didn`t call Tiger, Tiger had to seek her out. They have a very close knit group of people. And for them to kind of target these cheaters -- celebrity cheaters and to get in that circle with cameras just seems ridiculous to me. But I would love to see it.
SERAFIN: If Tiger knew that there was a show like this out there, would he have stopped cheating.
RUBIN: I kind of think you have to focus on the Nazi angle with this because Nazis always look so bad on TV and I feel like maybe she could soften their image a little bit.
VETRINI: Do you know what I want to know is everyone is always feeling so bad, you guys all feel so bad for the -- for the wives in a situation I mean, that`s what everybody is always talking about.
BEHAR: Well, there is that discussion that you know, how much do they know and how much -- are they responsible for getting involved with these dogs?
SERAFIN: Oh Jim Carey got in trouble for tweeting about that, right?
BEHAR: He did say that but I mean, it was that discussion going on but you really can`t blame the victim.
SERAFIN: No, I know.
BEHAR: I mean, what`s her name, Elin Woods, she had two kids. And you know it`s all very schizy (ph). Ok, everybody, thank you very much.
RUBIN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Up next, a little more air you guys, could the growing anger with the government take a violent turn? We`ll find out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The anti-government sentiment that has driven the Tea Party Movement seems to be working as four out of five Americans say they don`t trust the government. I wonder if these same sentiments might drive people to stop making racist signs than wearing hats made of teabags.
With me to talk about this is Mark Williams, Chairman of TEA Party Express and Vice Chairman of Our Country Deserves Better and Ari Melber, a correspondent for the "Nation" magazine.
Welcome you guys.
Ok, Mark, are you happy to see that statistic, a statistic more recruits for you, right?
MARK WILLIAMS, TEA PARTY EXPRESS: Well, no, I`m not happy to see that only like one in five of us trust our government. That`s a disaster. And that`s just indicative of how much work we have to do to restore our government to what it`s supposed to be so we can trust it again. I don`t think I`ve seen it this bad since Vietnam.
BEHAR: But do you think that people are buying into the inflammatory rhetoric from the extreme right in this country on television and on talk radio which causes them to believe that the government is against them? Or are people actually thinking for themselves?
WILLIAMS: I don`t know that -- I don`t know which extreme right wing rhetoric you`re listening to.
BEHAR: Oh, yes you do.
WILLIAMS: -- one of these things on both sides.
BEHAR: You know which ones I mean.
WILLIAMS: The people that you see in the streets right now are Americans who work for a living who are sick and tired of being plucked like chickens for the sake of a bunch of other people like the big corporations and such -- got their hands in their pockets. It`s time to restore a constitutional balance to this country.
BEHAR: Ok, I`m talking about inflammatory rhetoric right now. Bill Clinton this weekend drew parallels between the Oklahoma City bombing --
WILLIAMS: Yes that was pretty inflammatory.
BEHAR: -- and the mood in some parts of the country. He talked about the remarks in "The Situation Room" --
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: --watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There`s the same kind of economic and social upheaval than there was then. You had the rise of extremist voices on talk radio and you have gazillion Internet sites. People pumping up a lot of --
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: What you`re saying is potentially it could be worse today because of this echo chamber.
CLINTON: Yes, the echo chamber is bigger today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ari, do you think that President Clinton has a point?
ARI MELBER, "THE NATION": I think he does. He obviously was president when we had a terrible domestic terror attack. And these words do matter. People have the right to speak and we hear that a lot and it`s true.
But they also have to take some responsibility for the extremists in their midst and in many cases, the extremism that they`re pushing.
BEHAR: Mark, don`t you think the president had a point there?
WILLIAMS: I think he was extremely inflammatory and I would like to see him stop.
BEHAR: That he was inflammatory.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Why do you say that?
WILLIAMS: I mean where does he get off telling us that people who love their country and support the Constitution, which by the way is mankind`s premiere human rights document, where does he get off telling them that they`re militia, that they`re Timothy McVeigh?
That was very inflammatory and he should be ashamed of himself. He used to be president. He knows better.
BEHAR: Go ahead Ari.
MELBER: I mean Mark, it`s just funny, you know you`re being contentious. You obviously know that the inflammatory conversations that we`re talking about are the ones that are comparing this administration to some sort of regime or comparing the President to Hitler.
And obviously you can`t seriously come on TV and sit here and say that that`s the same as President Clinton telling people to slow it down a little bit.
BEHAR: Right.
WILLIAMS: Well, Hitler wasn`t a Marxist and I don`t know who is comparing him to Hitler.
MELBER: You do know you`re comparing him to Hitler because you`ve seen the coverage of these events. Not all people but some people at these events are comparing him to Hitler. Why do you say you don`t know that?
WILLIAMS: I have seen the coverage and what you don`t get is that that it`s impossible for a TEA partier to be that way. The Constitution --
BEHAR: Really?
WILLIAMS: The Constitution sets this country up as the only society in the history of man premised on the notion that government exists to protect individual human rights. We have an administration and an ideology in control which believes that the state has all the rights and we people only have privileges.
BEHAR: Where was the TEA party during the bush administration?
WILLIAMS: protesting. Protesting.
BEHAR: Where? I never saw them.
WILLIAMS: You weren`t paying attention. A lot of us were screaming and it hadn`t reached critical. The problem we have is during two Bushes and a Clinton, a lot of us were out here warning that we were going to have some serious problems.
But Barack Obama came along and he`s a loud burglar trying to bite off more than he can chew and people had reached critical mass.
BEHAR: I don`t really understand why the TEA partiers are so mad. From what I have read in the New York Times the other day --
WILLIAMS: They`re not mad, they`re celebrating the Constitution.
BEHAR: All right. Fine. Well, there seems to be a lot of anger in the Tea Party Movement. Don`t deny it?
WILLIAMS: Have you been to any of our events?
BEHAR: I`ve seen it on television.
WILLIAMS: we have music acts.
BEHAR: I`m scared to go.
WILLIAMS: Victoria Jackson, Jimmy Labriola (ph); we have --
BEHAR: Jimmy Labriola? I did standup with Jimmy Labriola.
WILLIAMS: There you go. He --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No, brain trust. Trust me.
MELBER: Can I add --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Let me add one thought here.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: We`re long on rhetoric here and long apparently on old standup acts and that`s fine. If you look at the facts though on the economic front, for example, there was a report out from the Tax Policy Center by the non-partisan Brookings Institution this week that shows that middle class, median income taxes are the lowest since 1955. And then you have TEA partiers and other folks making arguments and saying often falsely that somehow taxes are higher under this administration and they`re not.
We can have the policy debate over what`s good and what`s worth funding but when people come out moving beyond rhetoric and making these arguments on facts, a lot of their policies are wrong. So we`ve got unfortunately the uninformed leading the angry, it can be a rough combination.
WILLIAMS: Is there anything that either of you have ever encountered you don`t see as racist? Joy, you called Black Friday racist. You call the term black racist.
MELBER: You know, it`s funny. This is such a great example because this entire segment we haven`t heard one reference to race.
(CROSSTALK)
We haven`t heard one reference to race except by you. I didn`t bring up race.
BEHAR: We didn`t mention race.
MELBER: Joy didn`t mention race. And now you`re here saying everything is racist. It`s weird.
BEHAR: Exactly. You know, another question for you, Mark. The TEA partiers are supposedly educated. They are well -- what`s the word, well endowed, but that would be over the top. They make a good living. Their kids go to public schools. You know, all this stuff. You guys like the idea of Medicare and social security. What exactly are you so pissed off about?
WILLIAMS: What exactly don`t you like about this country and our Constitution?
BEHAR: I love the constitution. I love it.
WILLIAMS: And how dare you -- how dare you insult working men and women who love their country --
BEHAR: Who`s insulting them?
WILLIAMS: And feel that it`s being taken away.
BEHAR: I am not insulting anybody, Mark. Listen --
WILLIAMS: Who believe in equal rights for all including the working stiff in this country and the people who support --
BEHAR: Listen Mark. Don`t give me that crap. I come from the working class family. My mother was a sewing machine operator. My father was a truck driver. Give it a rest.
Thank you guys.
Up next, the hilarious Lewis Black stops by to give his take on the day`s news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: If the Tea Partiers need a break from all the ranting and raving, I suggest they go see the fabulous Lewis Black at the City Center here in New York City April 22nd to the 24th. I`m privileged to be joined by the professional curmudgeon himself, comedian Lewis Black.
So Lewis, they`re so pissed off over there. What are they so mad about? They have everything.
LEWIS BLACK, COMEDIAN: I`m more irritated that Labriola got the gig.
BEHAR: Well, Jimmy Labriola.
BLACK: What do they pay?
BEHAR: They`re saying he`s one of the. He`s one of the Tea Partiers as a comedian. Maybe they feel threatened by comedians. That`s why he threw that in.
BLACK: They seem to feel threatened by everything. It was very strange. How you do this, day after day --
BEHAR: This job?
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s so much fun.
BLACK: That was not -- I would have -- I literally, if he was sitting in front of me, I would have been hard pressed not to get on all fours, bark like a dog and bite him.
BEHAR: Let him say what he wants, I don`t care.
A lot of people are saying this Tea Party Movement has the similarity of the `60s. Now, I was there, I feel some (INAUDIBLE) -- because we`re old. My recollection is that all of the (INAUDIBLE) in the `60s were against a war, not against tax. So why do they draw that conclusion?
BLACK: Well, because there was a certain level -- I mean when you got the Weatherman blowing things up.
BEHAR: Oh, yes. They were bad.
BLACK: There was a certain group that you just even when you`re marching, I don`t really want to hang out with those people. You know, I`m sure in the midst of all of this, I know from going around the country and doing my standup, there was a level of anger out there way back, because they would say you can`t leave New York. They`re not going to listen to you with that New York anger thing. And they were like -- there was never a transition from these people who seem to be more angry than I was.
BEHAR: Really?
BLACK: I get that. But what I don`t get is what`s coming out now. He said he was a Marxist.
BEHAR: I know. They throw words out.
BLACK: They throw that out.
BEHAR: They don`t even know what that means.
BLACK: They don`t know what socialist means. And they use that -- I am a socialist. I have been seen I saw Edward (INAUDIBLE) -- go Google it. And the -- I literally have. And there`s seven of us left. And we don`t talk and probably I wouldn`t even want to spend time with them because we`re not fun people -- they`re not a fun group.
BEHAR: The thing about them is that they so contradict themselves, they want Medicare and they want their social security. They want their kids to go to public schools, they want their fire department. They want their police department. They want their roads but they don`t want socialism.
Those areas are run by the government, every single one I just mentioned. So how can we sit here and listen to that?
BLACK: And the military which is a massive socialist institution.
BEHAR: Well, I think they want the military. That they would say the government should pay for.
BLACK: Oh, they`re big on that. That`s the one thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: And then they would have the MILITARY do fire. They`d have them do double jobs. They would have them working 18 hours a day.
And it all boils down -- that thing you said, most of the people aren`t paying -- 47 percent are not having to pay taxes this year.
BEHAR: I know.
BLACK: My mother was screaming about it, they`re sending me money back.
BEHAR: Not one voice was raised during the Bush administration when he cut taxes for the very wealthy and he really in a way put us in this position of poverty stricken America. No one really has anything to say in that group at that time.
We have to go. But let`s come back.
Lewis, I want to have a lot of time with you. I know you have more to rant about. So we`ll be right back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m gladly back with a man who genuinely is always pissed off but in a good way, the fabulous Lewis Black. OK, there`s a new Right Wing channel coming out and it`s not called FOX news part deux. It`s called right network and guess who is its spokesman? Kelsey Grammer. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELSEY GRAMMER, HOST, RIGHT NETWORK: Things that just aren`t right. Big government. More taxes. Group hugs. Cats on leashes. There`s wrong, and there`s right. Right network. All that`s right with the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Just what we need, more Right Wing rhetoric.
BLACK: It`s perfect, because there`s not enough room for -- I need more -- I need something - I know FOX isn`t enough coffee in a way, you know? Seriously, you --
BEHAR: Plus Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, it`s an assault from the right.
BLACK: And Kelsey Grammer. What irritates me is I did his roast. I wouldn`t have done the roast.
BEHAR: If you knew that, really?
BLACK: I would have done it but I would have said why do I listen to you politically when you can`t get your car out of your driveway, (EXPLICATIVE DELETED). It`s 12 feet.
BEHAR: OK. But what kind of a career move is this for Kelsey Grammer really?
BLACK: I don`t know. There must be something in it. I guess he wants to protect his tax thing. You know that whole thing about --
BEHAR: Do you know how much Kelsey Grammer is? Do you know how wealthy this man is?
BLACK: Yes, I know.
BEHAR: I love it when the rich are bitching constantly about taxes.
BLACK: You`re rich now.
BEHAR: I don`t bitch about taxes. I`m happy, give or take it.
BLACK: The first time I went to the accountant to deal with -- when I had real money -
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: And he said, well you know we can do this and that and the other. I said you don`t seem to get how excited that I can finally kind of give back. How come it`s not seen as patriotic?
BEHAR: It should be.
BLACK: It`s insane.
BEHAR: It should be, but it`s not. It`s seen as they are taking something right out of my mouth.
BLACK: Well, that`s why schools suck. I mean, it`s like, you got to pay for stuff.
BEHAR: But there`s an issue too in this movement that`s going on with the country this Right Wing tea party movement that they do not seem to want to give what they got to poor people. They feel that Obama favors poor over the rich. Duh. I mean, shouldn`t the president of the United States care about poor people? What have we come to?
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: Well who was Jesus caring about? Who was Jesus caring about, Google it. The poor!
BEHAR: All right. I know.
BLACK: And it`s unbelievable to me. But that`s the way it works. I don`t understand what was the big shock to them. One side wins, and we went along with those idiots for a while. Then the other group of jackasses showed up and we did with them. How far do we move as a country, a smidge. We move like a little, so that all of a sudden, this administration go, there are poor people, that`s how far we`ve come.
BEHAR: Well they don`t seem to care about poor people. Do you think Sarah Palin gives a damn about poor people or that other bargain, Michelle Bachmann? They don`t care.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Those to brain (inaudible)
BLACK: No, they don`t care and they act like they`re getting something. What the poor are getting at this point allows them to breathe. They act like they`re going to clubs. They`re having the time of their lives. There`s nothing better than poverty.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: I`ve been in it.
BEHAR: Another day in paradise, what`s that song, Phil Collins, right?
BLACK: Oh yes.
BEHAR: Isn`t that what that song is about, homeless people?
BLACK: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: There`s no sympathy or empathy for people, it`s just pathetic, I think.
BLACK: No but you say the words common good.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: You can`t even say the words common good.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
BLACK: Strike that, edit it.
BEHAR: OK, now I hear that you`re speaking out for pot legalization.
BLACK: Yes, I am.
BEHAR: Why now?
BLACK: Because I feel that my generation, our generation needs a legacy.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: All we`re leaving behind now is what people think of our generation say wow, they got it all and they screwed it up.
BEHAR: The baby boomers?
BLACK: Yes, we did. Everything that came into our venue we screwed up in one fashion or another.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: This is something we can do. And we can do it quickly. And I think it`s the reason we came to this planet.
BEHAR: You know this is something that -- what, to legalize pot?
BLACK: Well yes, I don`t even smoke it anymore.
BEHAR: No, what do you do?
BLACK: I drink.
BEHAR: You drink now. Which is worse in a certain way, isn`t it?
BLACK: Don`t say that!
BEHAR: Well the mothers against drunk driving. More accidents are caused by alcohol than marijuana.
BLACK: Yes, which is why I live in New York. There`s cabs, there`s a whole array of ways for me to get back, you know, completely without being able to talk.
BEHAR: Yeah, yes, yes. But the government will make money if they legalize pot.
BLACK: That`s - that`s -
BEHAR: Do you think that these people, these tea partiers would be glad if they legalized pot if there was more money to be had?
BLACK: I think that there`s a group -- I`m sure there`s folks in there that would agree with that, I`m positive of that.
BEHAR: Well William F. Buckley wanted to legalize that.
BLACK: It makes no sense.
BEHAR: William Buckley in today`s climate would be considered a lefty.
BLACK: Oh yes, I know.
BEHAR: Oh please and Ronald Reagan, too.
BLACK: But we would raise money that way.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: And see if you don`t want to tax people, you know, we don`t make things.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: So it`s the 12th stage where it`s the largest crash crop.
BEHAR: Do you know that Ronald Reagan raised taxes six times when he was president. I wonder if they forget that.
BLACK: It had no affect on me. Back then --
BEHAR: You were poor then, me too.
BLACK: Yes. They would just call up to see if I was breathing.
BEHAR: Yes do you think prostitution should be legal, too or?
BLACK: Well for me, that would be fine. I`m not against it. I mean at least it would make -- as opposed to when I moved to New York and lived down 43rd with the transsexual prostitutes. Wow.
BEHAR: Did you live down there yes?
BLACK: What a quarter that was. Talk about strange. But just in terms of maintaining --
BEHAR: Listen it takes all kinds to make a fabulous city like New York.
BLACK: Yes, why not? It doesn`t, you know and what happens in a city like Amsterdam is you watch -- you do it, and you legalize it and then it actually starts to fade out.
BEHAR: Really?
BLACK: It`s fading out there.
BEHAR: It is.
BLACK: But all I do, when I`ve gotten prostitutes in my room and you pay the money, I end up trying to figure out why they do it. That`s all I do is talk to them.
BEHAR: You just talk to them?
BLACK: Yes, and they go time`s up.
BEHAR: And you pay them for that?
BLACK: I`m an idiot.
BEHAR: Listen I`ll come to your room and you can question me and give me money, all right. Now you know there`s a new poll out from the BBC and it says that other countries now view the United States more positively than negatively. What do you think of that?
BLACK: I think that`s great. I think that was one of the things that I had always thought when Obama was elected was that it would change the way the rest of the world looked at us.
BEHAR: Yes and it did. But he gets no points for that. They like it when George Bush was making everybody hate us.
BLACK: Well they think there`s something to be gained these people but there`s something that`s kind of inherent, weird kind of them being paranoid and freaked by us.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: That we have some sort of power over them.
BEHAR: Well they consider it weakness if people like you.
BLACK: Yes, I know.
BEHAR: Yes. Now Germany was seen as the country viewed as the most favorable. Isn`t that interesting? That`s quite a jump from 50 years ago.
BLACK: Especially as a Jew. Wow.
BEHAR: How do you feel about that as a Jew?
BLACK: I`ll take it. I`ll take whoever I can get from them.
BEHAR: Guess who was on the bottom?
BLACK: Oh its -
BEHAR: Guess who is on the bottom? Ahmadinejad.
BLACK: It`s got to be, yes.
BEHAR: He denied the holocaust.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: So nobody likes him. He said he would wipe Israel off the face of the earth and they have a, you know, weapons program going on.
BLACK: Is it at the bottom -
BEHAR: No one likes him any place in the world anymore.
BLACK: Yes, well, maybe we can get the tea partiers to -- why don`t they work that side of the block?
BEHAR: Yes I know, let them go work that side. OK now let`s talk about the catholic church for a minute, OK.
BLACK: That`s a fun group, I love talking about them.
BEHAR: Well Benedict is interesting, he met with the abuse victims over the weekend and supposedly cried and told the victims that the church would do everything they could to protect them. What do you think about that?
BLACK: Well did he just got the note?
BEHAR: He just got the note.
BLACK: He just, finally they got to him. Does he have like an ear trumpet and it`s taken them a while to get the sentence through?
BEHAR: Do you feel sorry for him at all? I mean he went from Hitler youth to covering up for molesters, do you feel sorry for him?
BLACK: No, I don`t feel sorry for him but I`m kind of glad that he - maybe that`s why he took so much time is he had to cry. He had to work up to that. It`s tough as an actor, I know.
BEHAR: You know who do you trust more in this world, politicians? I don`t trust them either. I`m with the tea partiers in that fashion.
BLACK: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: But a lot of them are you know a bunch of baloney types.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you trust politicians? Or I don`t trust a lot of holy people either.
BLACK: Oh no, that new one in India who is doing that, there`s a new guy who is selling yoga in India. Apparently he`s becoming - he`s having like 5,000 candidates run for office.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: I thought, that`s got to be -- they`re the ones who can really be strange as the pope end of the spectrum. But I got to say the Catholic Church is wow.
BEHAR: What do you think is going to happen there? He`s got a lot of baggage, this pope right now.
BLACK: Yes but it doesn`t seem to faze the church.
BEHAR: I have to speak for the Catholic Church because I was raised catholic.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: There`s a hierarchy, the Vatican, and there`s church. There are nuns who are washing the feet of the poor. You know there were nuns who were taking care of people in India, poor people all over the world. These are the people who take care of aids patients, you know?
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: So there`s that, and then there`s these men in dresses who are running the institution. So it`s two different things you know, it needs to be overhauled.
BLACK: Look I don`t think it needs an overhaul but it`s going to take -- it`s like, you know, our political system, that thing is like entrenched in that madness. You know, they love that --
BEHAR: A lot of ritual. A lot of ritual.
BLACK: A lot of ritual and I they that frankincense screws a lot of them up.
BEHAR: Yes well that -- maybe they should legalize frankincense. OK, thanks very much, Lewis Black. Always a pleasure to see you.
BLACK: Good to see you.
BEHAR: If you`re in New York, catch Lewis performing at the City Center this Thursday through Saturday. We`ll be back with the star of "Ruby" and a woman who lost over 500 pounds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ruby Gettinger and Nancy Makin once tipped the scales at over 1,400 pounds but through various efforts they`ve managed to shed an impressive 930 pounds. But what kind of courage, commitment, and maintenance is required to lose that much weight? Here to tell us how they did it is Ruby Gettinger, star of Style Network`s "Ruby" and author of "Ruby`s Diary." Nancy Makin, author of "703 - How I Lost More Than A Quarter Ton And Gained A Life." and also with me, is Dr. Gale Salter, associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian hospital. OK, let`s start, Nancy, let me start with you. All right, you weighed over 700 pounds at one point in your life.
NANCY MAKIN, AUTHOR, "703": Yes, I did.
BEHAR: And you were house bound because of that for 12 years. What were you thinking as you kept gaining the weight?
MAKIN: That`s a difficult one, because you`re just like anybody else. I think that`s your coping mechanism for whatever it is that`s eating at you -
BEHAR: Uh huh.
MAKIN: And it comes on incrementally obviously. So it`s a slow process. And I think eventually when you get -- and you would point to a number and say this is when I just felt like it was a lost cause, but slowly you begin to believe you have no value and that you`re never going to get out of the hole. And so you use the tool you always use -
BEHAR: Yes.
MAKIN: Which only compounds the injury.
BEHAR: So when you were like say 400 or 500 -
MAKIN: Uh huh.
BEHAR: Did you then think to yourself, I`m never going to get - I can`t solve this --
MAKIN: Yes, absolutely. You become resigned, basically.
BEHAR: So you just kept eating whatever?
MAKIN: Yes, and you know what, Joy? If you think about it the more sedentary you become, the less you really have to eat. And I`m not saying I didn`t overeat, I ate way too much for what my body needed.
BEHAR: Of course, nobody has an appetite like that.
MAKIN: But -- no, but I`ll tell you what people focus on it so much, like the, you know, the rag magazines where they will talk about she ate 12 pizzas for breakfast -
BEHAR: Yes.
MAKIN: You know and that`s just not the point. The focus should be on why we eat, not what we ate.
BEHAR: Why, OK, well we`re going to try and find out a little bit of that. Now Ruby, you also weighed 700 pounds but you say you were happy at that weight.
RUBY GETTINGER, AUTHOR, "RUBY`S DIARY": I was very happy. No, I wasn`t happy about the weight, I was just living my life and I was happy but I was always trying to lose weight since I was 13 years old. I`ve been trying to lose weight I just couldn`t get it under control no matter what I did.
BEHAR: When you say you were happy. In what way were you happy? What made --
GETTINGER: Well I lived my life, I was never an outcast in high school. I went out with my friends. I went dancing, even though I couldn`t dance 30 minutes, I was dance five minutes and sit down. I just - - people made fun of me, you know not my friends. But once they got to me, they accepted me. But I was made fun of, laughed at but I wasn`t going to let people stop me from living my life because I wanted to be with my friends and family. So it`s a deep rooted issue.
BEHAR: Yes, it is.
GETTINGER: And that`s one thing on my journey I`m finding out.
BEHAR: I`m curious about the two of you though, why didn`t you get your stomach stapled or get the lap banding, that would have been easier. I know you didn`t do it that way.
MAKIN: It never occurred to me. For one thing I had friends that done it and had miserable consequences.
BEHAR: Really, I know people who done it and they were fine.
MAKIN: Sure I`m just saying there can be bad situations.
BEHAR: Yes.
MAKIN: And I - it just never occurred for me to do it.
BEHAR: OK.
MAKIN: I really didn`t want to.
BEHAR: All right, Gail, what is the psychology of someone gaining so much weight, do you think? What is that about?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Well typically there is something going on. Eating to that degree usually has an emotional basis. Depression is a big one. In fact, a study shows people who are depressed are 58 percent more likely to be obese. Anxiety is another big one. Past history of some sort of trauma, sexual abuse, physical abuse, something that really dampens the self-esteem, and makes you feel a social void, whatever that might be, with food. Food as the comfort. Food as a solution. Food to satisfy dopamine receptors in the brain when you want to feel affection or love that you are not feeling. And sometimes it`s a fear of actually having relationships, of being sexually or physically involved with someone -
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: And having a layer of fat keeps other people away.
BEHAR: And could that come from a childhood trauma of sexual -
SALTZ: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Were you sexually abused Nancy?
MAKIN: No.
BEHAR: No, Ruby were you abused as a child sexually by any chance?
GETTINGER: No. But I don`t have no childhood memory from 13 and under and that`s what we`re going through right now.
BEHAR: Wow ok so something might have been there.
SALTZ: OK, when you have no childhood memory --
BEHAR: Yes, what does that mean.
SALTZ: When you have no childhood memories before the age of 13 there`s a high likelihood that something traumatic went on.
BEHAR: Yes you block something maybe -
SALTZ: -- something out, yes.
BEHAR: Isn`t it a little hostile to, I`m sorry, go ahead.
GETTINGER: It does scare me, because before, you know, I never had a childhood memory. I didn`t think nothing much about it, but the therapist told me that you do have a memory, but there`s a bigger part of you that`s protecting that. And I mean I don`t remember school, teachers, places I lived, I have no memory. I don`t know if you`re familiar with EDMR, but that`s the next step I`m going to try.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean it will probably be painful for you but you probably need to uncover that to get to really get to the root of what`s bugging you. OK guys, stay right there. We`ll continue this discussion after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about extreme weight gain and loss. You know I was thinking, there`s something hostile in gaining all that weight. Now, bear with me for a second, but because other people in the families suffer so much when they see their parent or their sister or their wife just blowing up like that. What do you say to that? About, you know --
MAKIN: Well, you know, at the time it`s your coping mechanism and you deny to yourself that they`re really harming other people, but of course you do.
SALTZ: It`s also so punitive. It`s anger. It`s turned in on the self. Also it`s a way to -- I think you`re right -- some degree there is an anger at others but you can disown it by just doing this thing to yourself and they have no power control over what you`re --
MAKIN: It`s all in your mind, in my case anyway, and maybe subconsciously. Right? It was a very mindless feeling. I just felt the need for food.
SALTZ: It puts people off. It repels people. It keeps people away. That`s just not romantic relationships. I mean, often keeps friendships away and so on because people are afraid. And I`ve had women who I`ve treated who have lost tremendous amount of weight, not by gastric bypass by what understanding that drove them to eat then they had to contend with the terror of going into a bar or so on and having male attention and you have to resolve that issue. Because otherwise you put it right back on. Or their relationships change. With their husbands, with their friends --
BEHAR: Yes. People are afraid of that. It`s the fear of success really is what you`re describing.
SALTZ: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Ruby, you say you were happy at 700 pounds yet you lost 400 pounds. Psychologically how did you feel different so you would lose that weight? What happened there if you were so happy?
GETTINGER: My doctor was telling me I was going to die. And I mean, my AC ones were 9.7. I mean, I felt my body shutting down because I was getting older. The joints weren`t moving. I was happy but still trying to lose weight. The first time a man told me, you know, a young guy, the first guy who ever told me, you know, you`re beautiful. I would love to date you but I can`t get over the physical - And I understand that totally. But the fact is, that`s when I started -- I always try to lose weight for someone else. Guy to like me.
BEHAR: But didn`t the doctors tell you you were going to die when you were 400? I mean 300 your heart is pumping underneath there.
GETTINGER: Joy you will be shocked, no doctor ever told me to go on a diet or anything and that`s one thing my doctor and I talked about. I say, why was it that my friends who are 30 pounds overweight, you know, they tell me that their doctors are telling them to lose weight. He said because they had high blood pressure.
BEHAR: And he never told you.
SALTZ: You know what a person -
GETTINGER: And he said I apologize for the doctors.
BEHAR: Right.
GETTINGER: He says I apologize for the doctors because we didn`t know much about obesity like we do now in the past five years. It`s really hit.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: I have to say that a person who can repress 13 years of their life is capable of hearing what they wanted to hear at the doctors and not necessarily hearing what they were being told.
BEHAR: Very interesting.
GETTINGER: Well you know what, one thing I have to tell you is that I would look in the mirror and I -- you know, the anorexic people look in the mirror and they see themselves fat. I would look in the mirror and I didn`t see myself as big as I was. The first time I saw myself was when I started the documentary. And I was in shock. I couldn`t believe when I walked I wobbled. I had a big problem with denial and disassociation which I`m finding out right now.
BEHAR: OK thank you, everybody. Congratulations to both of you on your success.
MAKIN: Thanks so much, thank you.
BEHAR: Nancy`s book is called "703, How I Lost More Than A Quarter Ton And Gained A Life." and be sure to catch Ruby on style networks, "Ruby." Good night everybody.
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