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Joy Behar Page
Law and Disorder; Surviving Cheating
Aired April 29, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, a lot of people are starting to boycott Arizona. I did that in 2008 when I didn`t vote for John McCain. I`m so ahead of the curve, it`s frightening.
Then Rielle Hunter was interviewed by Oprah today so she could tell her own truth. Rielle, here`s the truth: you slept with someone else`s husband. Case closed.
And Lindsay Lohan has tweeted a photo herself with a gun in her mouth. Unless she`s auditioning for Tarantino, I think the girl needs some help.
That and more right now.
Well, controversy and anger regarding Arizona`s new immigration law continues to escalate. There were more protests across the country today, including a massive one in Phoenix where pop star Shakira met with officials and protesters. Meanwhile, one Arizona sheriff is saying the bill is racist, stupid, and an embarrassment.
So where does all this outrage lead? With me now to discuss just that are: by phone, the mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon; actress and activist, Rosie Perez; and singer Jon Secada.
Mayor, let me start with you. You`re one of the leading opponents of this bill and you`re planning on filing a lawsuit. What are you hoping will happen if you file that?
MAYOR PHIL GORDON, PHOENIX, ARIZONA: Well, thank you, Joy and Jon and Rosie for getting involved and getting the country focused. My goal is to make sure that this law doesn`t go into effect to enjoin us. So that the courts -- and I`m sure it will end up in the Supreme Court -- have time to both look at it, declare it unconstitutional for the reasons we can discuss. And then if it for whatever reason finds it constitutional, which I don`t see how it can be, then at least to interpret it how government is supposed to act and proceed.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Ok. The National Coalition for Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders filed a lawsuit today. Listen to what one reverend said about the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. ALISON HARRINGTON, SOUTHSIDE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH: We have come here to denounce SB1070 as a piece of racist legislation. And we have come here to call this legislation what it is -- sin, flat out sin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Rosie, do you think it`s a sin, this law?
ROSIE PEREZ, ACTRESS/ACTIVIST: Oh, well, as a recovering Catholic, I don`t know if it`s a sin or not. But I would say that it`s disgusting and it is 100 percent completely wrong.
BEHAR: It`s immoral, I think.
PEREZ: Yes.
BEHAR: And it reeks of fascism.
Jon, you came to the United States when you were 9 from Cuba.
JON SECADA, SINGER: Yes.
BEHAR: What offends you the most about this bill?
SECADA: Well, I`m an immigrant, I`m a Hispanic American, I`m naturalized citizen, and I`m very, very proud to be an American. And how do you explain? To the single largest growing segment in this country for the next 20, 50 years, which is the Hispanic-American -- how do you explain with any type of common sense or logic that a law like this has nothing to do with either ethnic or social profiling?
Even politically, I mean, just for a minute, if you put aside maybe the ethical, moral, and civil rights issues attached to it, but even politically, the kind of president and -- that you`re establishing attached to a law that it`s alienating a community that is -- that is going to be a large part of this society for a long time to come.
BEHAR: Right. I think that the party that backs this kind of law is going to suffer in the next election and after that even.
PEREZ: Yes, 100 percent. And also, you know, when he says that we are the largest growing population in America. If you take in consideration that it is over 11 million people that you need to consider, are we really going to deport over 11 million people?
BEHAR: Well, it`s impractical at the very least.
PEREZ: And we`re in an economic crisis. Do we want us to (INAUDIBLE) to be there? And it just doesn`t make any sense to me outside of the racial issue.
BEHAR: Go ahead, Jon, you want to say something?
SECADA: No, Rose, you got it --
GORDON: Joy.
BEHAR: Ok, go ahead. The mayor.
GORDON: This is Phil. And I`m sorry I`m not there. I wish I could be. First of all, everything everyone said is understating how bad this is ethically, morally. It`s not what this country is about. It`s not what this state is about or the city.
It`s harming not only the city of Phoenix and the state of Arizona, but the rest of the country. And if anyone thinks, your viewers, that it`s going to stop in Arizona, unless people stand up and get this law reversed and get it overthrown immediately, it`s already spreading to see who can now become more racist and more extreme, Texas and California.
BEHAR: It`s interesting, there is a kind of a whiff of fascism, in my opinion. I mean is that a strong word to use.
GORDON: Let me tell you, it`s not a whiff. I`m looking at neo-Nazi banners and swastikas. You know, with their letters on it. These people that have come out from under the rocks under a disguise of patriotism are these extreme militia anti-government groups that now get to associate with people like Joe Arpaio and the gentleman, if I can call him that, that drafted this law and pushed it through.
BEHAR: Mayor, doesn`t it do your heart a little bit good and the rest of you to know that people are speaking out against it? That the newspapers, that people like me on television and different talk shows, Shakira is showing up in Phoenix today to protest?
GORDON: Absolutely. First of all, to be honest, it`s been pretty lonely out here because people are afraid here to stand up and speak out. They`ve been threatened, I get death threats. And it`s just not right.
Number two, it doesn`t make this country or this city or state any safer. It makes it less safe. People won`t testify. And it`s not -- I don`t mean to in any way suggest I disagree with Rosie, it`s not 11 million undocumented immigrants estimated; it`s citizens, it`s veterans that have fought for this country that now have to prove themselves a citizen. We`ve never had that before.
BEHAR: It`s really outrageous. Go ahead.
GORDON: It doesn`t stop there, African-Americans, you know -- if this country would`ve sent my grandparents back and said wait in line 20 years to get in this country, I wouldn`t be here. They came from Europe and the rest of their family --
BEHAR: Well, neither would I, I wouldn`t be here. My family came from Europe during a time when it was hard for Italians to assimilate.
Pima county sheriff is taking a stand against the new law. Ok. Listen to what he said about the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF CLARENCE DUPNIK, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Well, I just wanted to make sure that everybody understood what exists and what is really going on. I think the law, as I have said, is unwise, it`s stupid, and it`s racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He also calls it the law of embarrassment. Jon, don`t you commend the mayor -- what is he -- the sheriff, right? The sheriff for that, he spoke out.
SECADA: Most definitely. You know what -- at the end of the day it starts with the people that enforce the law on the field. It starts there. They`re the ones that have to deal with these issues day in and day out. Starting, thanking him, and thanking you, Joy, and mayor -- and the mayor for really the sensitivity and the efforts to really do the right thing. And it`s all about justice.
BEHAR: You know I was thinking of how it`s similar to gay bashing in a way because, you know, they`ll come in from other parts of the country or wherever and they`ll attack some gay guys in the village here, in Chelsea in New York City based on the way they look. It`s a very similar thing that`s going on.
It`s kind of we`re going to judge you on how you look, we`re going to throw you in jail, and also they`re going to throw these people in jail for six months?
PEREZ: Yes, and you know what`s even more insulting is that when you read the blogs. They attribute the illegal immigrants to be only Mexicans. And that is just so disgusting.
BEHAR: That is.
PEREZ: You know there are European illegal immigrants in this country. There are Asian illegal immigrants in this country. And we cannot forget the terrorists did come from Canada.
Do we need our borders secured? Yes. The way they`re doing it, does it work? No. Do we need comprehensive immigration reform? Yes, but this is not the way. This is a very dangerous precedent that the governor of Arizona has put forth.
BEHAR: Right. Absolutely. I want to thank you both for joining me tonight on this very important issue. And don`t forget, in addition to being an outspoken opponent of this law, Jon Secada has a day job. His new album "Classics" is out now.
Ok. Up next, John Edwards` mistress spoke to Oprah today. Jenny Sanford and Norris Church Mailer weathered their husbands high-profile affairs and will be with me to discuss it. Yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, Lindsay Lohan`s erratic behavior takes in another bizarre twist.
And Joy talks with a man who single handedly invented the daytime talk show, TV legend, Phil Donahue.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Rielle Hunter sat down with Oprah Winfrey today. Among other things, she said that she didn`t contribute to the breakup of John Edwards` marriage. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RIELLE HUNTER, JOHN EDWARD`S MISTRESS: It is not my experience that a third party can wreck the home. I believe the problems exist before a third party comes into the picture.
OPRAH WINFREY, TV HOST: So you don`t think you wrecked his home?
HUNTER: I do not believe I wrecked his home. I didn`t make a commitment to Elizabeth. I wasn`t the one lying like to her. And I was supporting him in his process and his intentions never wavered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me are two prominent women both of whom married high profile men who`ve cheated on them. Jenny Sanford, author of "Staying True", about her experience with South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford; and Norris Church Mailer, author of "A Ticket to Circus" about life with the greater writer Norman Mailer.
Welcome ladies.
(CROSSTALK)
Now she`s -- that you -- nice having you here. Does Rielle have a point? Shouldn`t the rage be directed at the husbands? Or doesn`t she have a point, what do you think Jenny?
JENNY SANFORD, FORMER WIFE OF GOV. MARK SANFORD: No I think she`s wrong. She`s not 16. She knew what she was doing. And John Edwards was not only married, he was visibly telling the world he was married and showing the world he was married. So no, I think she -- I think she contributed to the breakup of that home.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: So did he; you can`t let him off the hook. But --
BEHAR: But some people say that if a marriage is happy, another woman cannot break it up. Or another man, I guess.
What do you think, Norris?
NORRIS CHURCH MAILER, AUTHOR, "A TICKET TO THE CIRCUS": Well, no, I think another man -- another man or another woman can break it up.
BEHAR: You do?
MAILER: Yes. I think so. I think the blame goes around to everybody. I mean, he didn`t do this by himself, but she was there. She knew very well what she was doing.
BEHAR: Well, she came on to him at a bar --
MAILER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and she said, "You`re so hot." You`re so hot. And then she said she had nothing to do with it.
MAILER: No, no.
SANFORD: No.
BEHAR: I mean, she knew he was Senator Edwards. And I mean, everybody kind of knew he was married, right, Jenny?
SANFORD: I mean, he was campaigning -- he was actively campaigning.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: I mean, he was campaigning as a married man.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: So yes, I think that goes with the package.
BEHAR: Yes.
MAILER: Didn`t she say she didn`t know who he was?
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: Come on, I don`t believe anything she says.
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: A woman who poses half naked with puppets cannot be trusted. Now, Norris --
MAILER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- you were the other woman when Norman was married?
MAILER: I was.
BEHAR: So you`ve been on both sides of the fence, right?
MAILER: I`ve been on both sides of this fence and neither side is very comfortable, I can tell you.
BEHAR: Which is -- which is better?
MAILER: Oh, well -- neither one is very good to tell you the truth. It`s horrible to be cheated on. I mean, it`s just -- you know, it`s like a death in the family. The man that you knew was no longer alive. I mean, you just feel like he`s somebody else.
BEHAR: When he cheated, when your husband is cheating?
MAILER: When you find out he`s been cheating, yes.
BEHAR: Oh I know. It must have been shocking to both of you, right? Was it shocking to you, Jenny? Tell me what -- how you felt when you found out? Or what -- what went through your head --
SANFORD: Oh, no, I was devastated, I was devastated. But then what was more devastating is, you couldn`t wake him up. In other words, I kept thinking where is the man I knew? Where is the man I loved? And we`re not still -- we`re now divorced and moved on, but he`s still trying to find himself.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: So, yes, there is a certain -- there is a certain change that goes on when somebody breaks a big commitment like that, I think.
BEHAR: Yes but Norris, I think it was a little different with you. I mean, Norman Mailer, pretty much -- you knew he was not a monogamous guy.
MAILER: No, I mean it was totally different with me. When I married Norman -- when I met Norman, he was married to one wife, had been living with another woman for five years, they had a child, and he had a third one who was -- a serious relationship that was pressuring him to leave both of them for her and then he had -- I don`t know how many casual ones on the side. I mean, this was not a guy who was ever monogamous.
BEHAR: Wow. How did he have time to write books?
MAILER: Well, he was a very hard worker. I learned my professionalism from him. You get up every day and you put yourself in the chair and you write.
BEHAR: I remember reading in your book -- that when you wrote him a letter when you first met him.
MAILER: Right.
BEHAR: And then you wrote him a letter saying how great it was to meet him and all that, you were starry eyed --
MAILER: Joy --
BEHAR: -- he sent it back to you with corrections.
MAILER: Oh, it was a poem.
BEHAR: A poem, yes a poem.
MAILER: I wrote a poem and he sent it back red-penciled.
BEHAR: Imagine that, gosh.
MAILER: That was a clue. I mean --
BEHAR: That was your first clue for what?
MAILER: It was a clue that he was probably a little controlling, I don`t know.
BEHAR: And a little bit of a narcissistic disorder, maybe? Well, he was Norman Mailer, you knew that.
MAILER: I`m not going to start psychoanalyzing Norman Mailer on television.
BEHAR: No, I will.
MAILER: No, but it was ok. I mean, I wrote the poem for somebody else anyway.
BEHAR: Yes.
MAILER: So, you know, it was not even a firsthand poem.
BEHAR: Oh, you had written the poem for someone else and then you said -- oh no wonder he was correcting it.
MAILER: I know, I know, so I deserved what I got.
BEHAR: Did you ever write a poem to --
SANFORD: To Mark?
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: No, I don`t remember writing a poem. That side of my brain doesn`t work very well.
BEHAR: All right, Rielle Hunter shared her views on marriage with Oprah. Let`s see this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUNTER: A lot of people bought into the myth of the marriage. I mean the Edwards marriage as being a storybook story. And it was so perfect and so wonderful. And I destroyed it.
People aren`t property. We can`t steal someone else`s husband. You can`t steal someone`s wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Again with that routine. You know, people aren`t property. No, they are not property, but they also -- here`s my thing about it. It`s like -- I think marriage is difficult. Monogamy is monotonous, let`s tell the truth.
But there are peaks and valleys in marriage and when you have children sometimes you feel a little bit like, you know, you`re in an apron.
SANFORD: Right.
BEHAR: You don`t look your best and that could be a vulnerable time for the marriage, right?
SANFORD: Right, but that`s why marriage is a commitment. Because, because, the feelings you feel when you fall in love with somebody, they don`t last.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: So you have to be able to actually be committed to another person so that you can withstand the peaks and valleys.
BEHAR: It is very difficult.
Now, you guys really -- you were exposed -- you were in a public humiliation.
SANFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, that was a little bit different, I think, from yours, right, Norris?
MAILER: Well, yes, I mean, I was in the same level of fame, I guess. I mean, it was in all the papers. It was in the columns. You know, everybody knew it was --
BEHAR: But it`s a little different for a politician`s wife? Because you know, the Silda Spitzer thing --
MAILER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- where she`s standing next to her husband like the injured party.
MAILER: Yes, I didn`t have to do that.
BEHAR: You didn`t have to do that.
MAILER: No.
BEHAR: She didn`t do it. Jenny did not do it.
SANFORD: No.
MAILER: No, and I respected her for that.
SANFORD: But there is a certain set of expectations that comes with being married I guess in the public eye and then your children.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: We have children who had to deal with it being in the press, as well.
BEHAR: I mean, how did you deal with that? I still don`t know how you did that.
SANFORD: You know how I dealt with it?
BEHAR: The public humiliation. I mean, you went home and you cried by yourself?
SANFORD: I mean, I cried, you`re definitely humiliated.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: But at the end of the day, you have to -- I believe that your happiness is a choice. And I believe that you have to make a decision to move past something, not to be angry. To get up every day and say I`m not going to let -- in other words, I had to choose not to let the humiliation affect me.
There`s no question what he did was not something I was happy about or proud about --
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: -- but I had to make it not bring me down.
BEHAR: Right.
SANFORD: And that`s a choice.
BEHAR: You make that choice.
SANFORD: Yes you have to choose to say I don`t like what he did --
MAILER: Yes.
SANFORD: -- but that`s his problem and he needs to figure out who he is and I`m going to move on be the best Jenny I can be.
BEHAR: Good for you.
Well, you know, you left and you stayed. I want to ask you more about that when we come back. We`ll continue this discussion after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guests, and we`re talking about surviving cheating with your dignity intact. Norris, I was saying before, Jenny left, you stayed. While you knew that Norman Mailer was cheating. Why did you stay?
MAILER: Well, because he changed. And I knew -- I believed him.
BEHAR: Even with his track record?
MAILER: You know, the track record was there when I met him. So I knew that this guy was a philanderer; that he had gone through all this stuff. But when we got together, he had decided he wanted to try this monogamy thing.
BEHAR: Give it a shot.
MAILER: You know, he really wanted to. Yes, he wanted to see how deep he could get into a relationship with one woman. He was tired of all the cheating, the lying, and the sneaking around. He just wanted to have a relationship where that didn`t happen and that was true for many years.
BEHAR: But then he slipped?
MAILER: And then he slipped. But I still didn`t know because I`d been lulled into this complacency because he was true to me for many years.
BEHAR: Right.
MAILER: And -- you know, I said how didn`t I know? Why didn`t I have a clue?
BEHAR: The wife is the last to know.
MAILER: And he said, well, it`s not hard to fool somebody who loves you and trusts you. And it`s not.
BEHAR: You know, the thing about the two of you that`s similar is that you`re both -- were married -- you were attracted, I guess, to powerful, and in your case, a man with some means. I don`t know if Mark had a lot of money, but just powerful men.
And, you know, when Ethel Kennedy once asked you, Norris, would you be with Norman if he were not Norman Mailer? And what was your answer?
MAILER: I said, well, I know a whole lot of people who are not Norman Mailer and I`m not with any of them, so I guess not.
BEHAR: Must be. So but you were -- you see I`m not attracted to powerful men. It seems to me you take a backseat to a powerful man. I don`t like that.
SANFORD: You see mark wasn`t powerful when I met him.
BEHAR: He wasn`t?
SANFORD: No, he was kind of a country boy. And -- but I was attracted to -- really kind of he was a wholesome, honest, good-natured kind of person.
BEHAR: Yes.
SANFORD: And that`s why -- that`s one of the reasons why I made the decision to leave him because I couldn`t find that person anymore. He had disappeared.
BEHAR: Now that you`re free and on the loose again, Jenny --
SANFORD: I am free and on the loose.
BEHAR: Are you going to be going for a powerful guy or just a regular love like the rest of us?
SANFORD: You know, I`ve always looked at -- I`ve always looked at a person and their values and what makes them who they are. And I like people who are grounded and --
BEHAR: Good for you.
SANFORD: Just good people. So we`ll see.
MAILER: But you know, Norman wasn`t powerful, he was interesting.
SANFORD: He was powerful -- first of all, he was a big personality and was powerful as a writer. He ran for mayor. Didn`t he run for mayor of New York City?
MAILER: Yes, he did run for mayor. But I mean he didn`t have a lot of power. He was a writer. And he was -- and he was not wealthy, which is kind of a myth.
BEHAR: No. But creative and brilliant.
MAILER: he was Creative and brilliant, and I was attracted to his mind. I was really attracted to that intellect.
BEHAR: Right. And in the case of Bill Clinton who you claim in the book you had an affair with him before he was married to Hillary Clinton. Were you attracted to his mind also?
MAILER: I was. Very much. I always liked interesting men, maybe not necessarily powerful men. But when I -- when I met him -- and it was not a romance at all, by any stretch of the imagination.
BEHAR: Just sex?
MAILER: It was just a little fling. I had just gotten divorced, and he wasn`t married. And I was running his campaign, and it was just a little summer fling. It wasn`t anything more than that.
BEHAR: Well, you were a gorgeous model in those days.
MAILER: No, I was a schoolteacher in those days.
BEHAR: A gorgeous schoolteacher. But he eventually married a girl who was his intellectual equal which is an interesting choice --
MAILER: He did, yes.
BEHAR: -- even though he still wanted to philander around.
MAILER: Yes he did.
BEHAR: What can we say, ladies? Thank you for showing up and sharing all this with us.
Up next, Lindsay Lohan is upset with her father. Gee, I wonder why. I`ll have the details.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Lindsay Lohan is no stranger to publicity, good or bad, even after her father showed up at her door with the police, the 23-year-old actress did a radio interview, went partying until 5:00 a.m., and did a photo shoot with a gun in her mouth. Thank god she`s getting her act together. Here to talk about the latest on Lindsay and much, much more, comedian Kevin Meaney, executive editor of "US Weekly" Caroline Schaefer, and comedienne, Maureen Langan.
OK guys, she just did this photo shoot where she poses with a gun in her mouth, OK. Everyone`s worried about her that she`s posing with a gun. If I did that, you know, Glenn Beck would send me flowers, but Lindsay Lohan it becomes like a story about like how weak the girl is and sad. What do you think?
KEVIN MEANEY, COMEDIAN: I think that was a very nice photograph.
BEHAR: Do you think that?
MEANEY: Yes, you know, with the gun right in her mouth. I thought that was telling.
BEHAR: Should we be worried about this girl, Caroline?
CAROLINE SCHAEFER, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, US WEEKLY: Yes, I think she was just begging for attention. Not only is it a photo shoot, but she twittered it to all her fans. So millions of people got it on their twitter feed. It`s a little alarming, oh yes.
MEANEY: Well she has a problem -- she twitters from like really late at night from like 5:00 till like, you know, 5:00 in the morning and wakes up at 1:00 and she erases her twats. So --
SCHAEFER: What?
MEANEY: That`s what she does.
MAUREEN LANGAN, COMEDIENNE: What are you talking about?
MEANEY: She twitters her tweets.
SCHAEFER: Yes, she does deletes them.
MEANEY: She deletes them -
(CROSSTALK)
MEANEY: So I wake up now at noon and I read her tweets.
LANGAN: Or her --
BEHAR: OK so is the girl ill? Or is this a publicity stunt?
LANGAN: If this is a publicity stunt. That is so crazy, Joy. I was raised to work hard, get educated, but life has rewarded Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, and those freaks from the "JERSEY SHORE" people who do wrong or who clearly are disturbed are over the line. This is going to be a big publicity stunt for her and it`s she`s crazy.
MEANEY: What do you have a problem with "JERSEY SHORE"?
LANGAN: I love the JERSEY SHORE, the shore, not the people.
MEANEY: Well the situation -
BEHAR: See I always think about Madonna, you know, Madonna was always changing her image and slitting her wrists in some video, whatever the, hell she was doing. But she was a good business woman.
SCHAEFER: To her art form, not to clubs at 5:00 in the morning and twittering people.
LANGAN: Either you`re together or blowing your brains out. Is there no middle ground?
BEHAR: I don`t think so.
MEANEY: I think her parents are really doing a good job.
BEHAR: Yes, really.
MEANEY: Yes, you know Michael and daddy -
BEHAR: The father -- the father -- she is like - she spoke out against her father. She said he is foul and her mother is an amazing woman. You want to hear what her father said when he was on the show?
MEANEY: Yes I would like to see.
BEHAR: OK let`s look at that, he was here the other day, he was on the show the other day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL LOHAN, LINDSAY LOHAN`S FATHER: All I ever wanted was for my daughter to have her life back. That`s all I want. I wanted -- I want her to have her life back and I want Ally to be in school and have a normal life. That`s all I care about, I don`t care if people attack me, but you have to understand something. I don`t do this for publicity, I don`t get paid, I`m a father.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She doesn`t seem to want his help. Why doesn`t he get off of her back? She`s 23 years old.
MEANEY: Quite a horrible human being --
BEHAR: He was crying there. That`s how you respond to a crying father?
LANGAN: He looks like --
BEHAR: That`s so wrong.
MEANEY: But come on, he looked kind of greasy to me, didn`t he? Hair slicked back. I want to tell you about my Lindsay.
LANGAN: Yes he looked like he just came from the neighborhood and he was doing some method acting. What`s happening here? He`s trying to get on with Dr. Drew Pinsky. I would do drugs to get on Dr. Drew Pinsky. But come on.
SCHAEFER: If he really wants to help her, he needs to go to her and sit down. He calls the police, calls TMZ. He`s engaged to her former assistant. Come on.
BEHAR: All right, let`s change the topic now. The year Sandra Bullock and Julia Roberts have been running neck-and-neck in the America`s sweetheart race, but looks like new mother Sandra is pulling out ahead. What do you think of that? You know what the story is right?
MEANEY: Oh yes.
BEHAR: Julia is the most beautiful ever to exist in the universe for "People" magazine, and Sandra has the cover of "People," look at that.
MEANEY: Yes and then Julia has only a little corner up there on the right.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right a little corner on the right.
LANGAN: I know we`re supposed to feel bad for a woman who makes $20 zillion per picture and can have any woman`s husband she wants.
BEHAR: And why do we have to have an American sweetheart anyway? I don`t understand that.
LANGAN: -- it is some term
SHCAEFER: Coined in the `90`s, all of a sudden when Sandra started to overtake Angelina Jolie -
(CROSSTALK)
MEANEY: That was in 1920`s we had American sweethearts.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAEFER: Whenever "Pretty Woman" came out.
BEHAR: We don`t have America`s sweet guy.
MEANEY: Well we do. Let me get really thin.
SCHAEFER: I think why Julia might be upset is she was promised that cover, basically. And you know, when this news broke, obviously she got --
MEANEY: But that whole thing with Jesse James that she`s married to, she`s got a problem you know going after guys with, you know, just the names of crimes. Who is she going to go out with next?
BEHAR: Wyatt Earp.
MEANEY: Baby-face nelson? I`m over here, Sandra, baby face is back.
BEHAR: Now you know, originally, this is an interesting tidbit, Julia Roberts turned down "The Blind Side." right Caroline?
SCHAEFER: Yes, she turned down that role and Sandra went on to win the Oscar, so that`s got to hurt.
BEHAR: Why do you think she turned it down?
SCHAEFER: I mean I think right now she`s got three kids, she`s only taking things that she feels are very important, maybe she thought it was too commercial.
BEHAR: I didn`t like that movie. Did you like that movie?
LANGAN: I thought Sandra`s acting --
BEHAR: -- What middle class white family rescues a black kid. It`s so like liberal baloney.
LANGAN: But when you see the cover of "People" magazine, it`s method acting. Wow, that`s real method acting.
BEHAR: Sandra was good in if movie.
LANGAN: She`s great right.
BEHAR: I`m not faulting her, but the concept of the movie.
MEANEY: It`s very true, though, that concept. You go to west Chester County, there`s so many white families with big black guys living with them. You know --
BEHAR: What are you talking about?
MEANEY: Isn`t that the movie? "Blind Side?"
BEHAR: What does Julia have to do to become America`s sweetheart again?
LANGAN: She has to get Malawi on speed dial. That`s what she has to do and then she`ll get the cover of "TV Guide" next week.
BEHAR: You know two of these girls are 40 or more, and I think that is impressive.
SCHAEFER: It is.
BEHAR: But we`re still saying things about them, talking about them and everything. There was a time that wouldn`t be right?
MEANEY: Yes if you are 30, you know your career is over -
BEHAR: Do you remember in "All About Eve," she`s suppose to be complete -- Betty Davis plays Margo Channing and it was over, she was only 40 in that movie.
MEANEY: Yes, I know.
LANGAN: Hey, what about Meryl Streep, she just did "It`s Complicated," she`s 60 years old and was the hot lover lady.
BEHAR: She`s one of a kind.
MEANEY: She`s good.
BEHAR: OK, the history channel is producing a mini series on the Kennedy`s.
LANGAN: Finally.
BEHAR: Greg Kinnear will play JFK and Katie Holmes will play Jackie. Now, I would like to -- I think I could play Marilyn Monroe, what do you think?
SCHAEFER: Absolutely.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Or whatever. What do you think of the casting, Caroline?
SCHAEFER: I mean I think it`s interesting, Greg Kinnear is a great actor. I`m not sure how much he looks like JFK, I think Katie Holmes is interesting, she actually does look like Jackie O and she sort of fancies herself with the style like - she has her own fashion line. So I think that`s a big leap for -- its a great job for her. I mean for her to get that is a big deal.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANGAN: And she`s going to prepare for the role of the neglected wife by staying married to Tom Cruise.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Oh they look like they are so happy, although I always see pictures of her and Suri, that`s all I ever see.
MEANEY: With the fringe on top.
BEHAR: Suri with the fringe on top.
(CROSSTALK)
MEANEY: Katie Holmes -
BEHAR: With a tutu.
MEANEY: They should have Katie Holmes and John Holmes should play JFK.
BEHAR: oh, oh, baby.
MEANEY: And that whole sexual thing, that Kennedy thing.
BEHAR: Wouldn`t Charlie Sheen be a good choice for JFK?
MEANEY: Yes, he would be.
BEHAR: I mean really, think about it.
MEANEY: -- Martin Sheen played JFK.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s right, but I mean he`s the philanderer too, you know, whatever.
MEANEY: That`s right.
BEHAR: You know, I was thinking before, if JFK was alive now, he would never be able to be president, because he could not keep his pants up, the guy. He had many, many women. They would come to the White House and swim in the pool.
MEANEY: Not if he lived.
LANGAN: Well, if he were here now.
MEANEY: If he were here, he would be in his 90s.
SCHAEFER: And with Viagra, you know --
MEANEY: He would be at the playboy mansion.
BEHAR: Well, Hugh Heffner is still going strong with those twins.
MEANEY: Right.
BEHAR: Thanks, everyone. Up next, TV legend Phil Donahue stops by. So stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest is the father of daytime talk for almost 30 years, he interviewed everyone from governor Bill Clinton to the grand wizard, David Duke. And one of his guests, Marlo Thomas even ended up marrying him. Hey Phil, choose a smart girl to hook you.
PHIL DONAHUE, FORMER TALK SHOW HOST: Well, you know, she always went for older men. So here I am.
BEHAR: I`m sure she`ll love hearing that. OK, now, you were -- you were in the business for a long time, talk show business. And you`re basically -- you were the first to tackle birth control. We looked this up, aids, feminism, homosexuality, death penalty, abortion. How did that all go down in those days?
DONAHUE: Well, very badly in some places. We were in Dayton, Ohio, and if it weren`t for Dayton, Ohio, and if it weren`t for Dayton, you know, I would be parking cars today. Because they accepted this program.
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: Our first guest was Madeline Murray O`Hare.
BEHAR: Oh, the atheist.
DONAHUE: There`s no heaven, there`s no hell --
BEHAR: Radical. Radical. It`s still a radical notion.
DONAHUE: But the building fell in Dayton, Ohio. If you can imagine. The lines were jammed, protests, sponsors cancelled. But everybody knew there was a new TV show on Dayton, Ohio.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
DONAHUE: I mean this woman was magic in terms of the ratings. And smart too. And it was an historic event. She threw prayer out of public schools, my goodness.
BEHAR: Well, you know, May 6th is coming up, and that`s the national day of prayer. As a matter of fact, since you mentioned it and a Wisconsin judge says it`s unconstitutional. It`s been there for 58 years.
DONAHUE: Yes.
BEHAR: Everybody`s supposed to stop and pray.
DONAHUE: Well, I`ve thought a lot about this as a person who raised -- I`m raised catholic, graduate of the university of Notre Dame, so I don`t laugh at people who believe in god. The separation of church and state means that the government is never going to fool with your religion. He`s never going to tell your rabbi or preacher what to say from the pulpit.
BEHAR: Right.
DONAHUE: But here`s where I think people kind of get it. Without the separation of church and state, you -- and it`s happened -- they`ll put a Jewish kid in a catholic -- in a Christian Christmas pageant. And you`ve got this little Jewish kid looking down at oh, baby Jesus, thank you for coming into the world saving me from my sins.
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: That is wrong. You don`t do that. That`s a family thing. Don`t fool that. No child -- the separation of church and state means that no teacher will ever fool with your child`s mind.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
DONAHUE: Hooray for that. That`s why the framers were right. And by the way, we`re the most religious nation on earth. More mosques, chapels -
BEHAR: Right.
DONAHUE: Synagogues, temples. We throw more holy water than any other -- burn more holy smoke. And that`s because of the separation of church and state. I say hooray for this, god bless us for having all of these religions.
BEHAR: That`s what the founding fathers intended.
DONAHUE: Right but people misunderstand this -
BEHAR: But remember, George Bush is the one who said that god told him to go into Iraq.
DONAHUE: That`s why -
BEHAR: The same as that terrorists say that Alla tells them.
DONAHUE: Right.
BEHAR: And what`s the difference between them and Bush, I`d like to know.
DONAHUE: We -- the framers were right. They saw this coming. What we don`t want is a president who talks to god every day and god talks back.
BEHAR: Right.
DONAHUE: We -- and we never should permit any president or any leader of any kind to suggest that god is on their side in a war.
BEHAR: It`s pretty scary. But, you know something, Phil? An atheist would never be a president in this country.
DONAHUE: No.
BEHAR: I think that -- we`ve elected a black man, I think we`ll elect a woman and a Jew and a Muslim before an atheist.
DONAHUE: I agree. In fact, you know, we`d have to check this. I pop of and sometimes I`m -- I believe at least at one time, if not now, the only member of Congress not to declare a faith or a religion is Pete Stark of California.
BEHAR: Oh. And he`s --
DONAHUE: He`s just saying, you know, I think --
BEHAR: He`ll never be president.
DONAHUE: You`re asked -- but you can`t be elected to Congress if you`re, you know, if you don`t throw your arms around the lord, god bless this, that, my dog and my cat. Oh, sit down, this is false piety, for short term political gain. And we should push back against it right now.
BEHAR: I don`t think they believe it, half of them. Coming from the talk show history that you come from, what do you think of this upsurge of the Becks and Limbaughs and FOX News and how powerful it is in the country right now. Or it seems to be?
DONAHUE: Yes, well, we`re not sure -- it does appear to be that way.
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: The question is now, what kind of influence does it have? They`re very, very interesting. You know K.O.S., the website, he`s got a thing called "Full Mental Beck." And it`s like seven minutes, a montage of Beck with the black board and the --
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: You`ve got to see this.
BEHAR: Is he mocking it?
DONAHUE: No, he just lets him go -- it`s Beck. And you see some of the talking points of -- and so if you`ve just read about Glenn Beck -
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: And you don`t want to watch Glenn Beck, check daily K.O.S. - because you better know what is going on here or you are going to be culturally illiterate.
BEHAR: That`s right. You have to watch it. But a lot of these tea- partiers and a lot of that, I think they`re interested in watching these Glenn Beck types. I think that`s where they`re coming from.
DONAHUE: I have to tell you, I watch them. I don`t watch them every night.
BEHAR: Oh you do.
DONAHUE: I do.
BEHAR: Keep your friends close and your enemies on TV.
DONAHUE: Well, I can`t get over that. To me this is a fascinating story.
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: How long are they going to last? Who are the tea party people? What do the republicans think of them? If we didn`t have Glenn Beck, we`d have to invent him.
BEHAR: That`s true. OK, we`ll be back with more Phil Donahue in just a bit. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Phil Donahue. You know, Phil, Oprah is leaving. What do you think of that? Were you surprised that she would leave?
DONAHUE: No, I can`t say I was -- I know what it`s like to do that many shows.
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: And so I mean what is a success to you? I mean, my dear, she can`t get any higher with her TV show.
BEHAR: No.
DONAHUE: And so I assume she`s looking for other things, prime time specials.
BEHAR: Yes, she has her own network.
DONAHUE: Yes, I know. I mean --
BEHAR: How about you taking over that slot?
DONAHUE: Not likely. Not likely. I gave away all my ties.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What happened to you over at MSNBC. You had a show for awhile. Were you taken off that show because you were too liberal.
DONAHUE: Yes, and if you want proof for that just Google Phil Donahue, New York Times.
BEHAR: But they`re so liberal now, it`s so ironic.
DONAHUE: Isn`t it?
BEHAR: Yes.
DONAHUE: Now the whole station is what I was trying to say in `02. The memo said Donahue`s anti-war stance will not work against the flag waving on the competition. Donahue appears to take delight in opposing the war. Don`t miss this now. This is how we are marginalized. Delight. Imagine, you send your kid to Iraq and Donahue at home is delighting in condemning the war that he is in. This is what they do.
BEHAR: Wow, twist it.
DONAHUE: It`s very hard to oppose a war. They want you to sit down and shut up and sing.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s right.
DONAHUE: And that`s why we -- that`s what we are becoming a warrior nation for this reason.
BEHAR: I don`t think we can afford it much longer.
DONAHUE: You know, it is certainly endangering the lives of our young adult children who are vulnerable to conscription now because of our rootin`, tootin`, shootin` foreign policy. Now we got unmanned aerial vehicles, a guy sits in Nevada with a joystick looking at a TV camera on a drone and firing it into a group of people who are killing women and children and this is on Obama`s watch.
BEHAR: So you`re disappointed in him?
DONAHUE: Well my goodness, we`re the most powerful nation on earth and we`re doing with joy sticks and video game and killing people, of civilian people and wonder why nobody likes us. I don`t understand -- we`ve got to stop --
BEHAR: And they like us more than they used to since he`s in office.
DONAHUE: That`s true.
BEHAR: You know.
DONAHUE: that`s true.
BEHAR: Do you think that Bush -- Bush has got an autobiography coming out in the fall. Do you think he`s going to tell the truth of the war and 9/11 and --
DONAHUE: He will say -- he will say, I had to protect the American people and that --
BEHAR: He`s not going to turn himself in.
DONAHUE: And people, and everybody -- they were against Jesus. Jesus took a lot of criticism, and he stalwartly marched forward and that`s what I did. I made some tough calls. War is hell, but sometimes you got to do it. He will go to the grave, believe me.
BEHAR: Do you think he`ll admit there were no weapons of mass destruction.
DONAHUE: Here`s what he`ll say, everybody -- I mean you see -- the French, the -- they all said.
BEHAR: They cherry-picked that information in order to go there.
DONAHUE: By the way, when was the last article you read about Iraq?
BEHAR: I know.
DONAHUE: How are we doing -- what`s going on in Fallujah. By the way, now we have over a thousand Americans in Afghanistan, you know --
BEHAR: You know, Phil, talking to you now, I wish you were back on TV. I really think you should be back. I`m just saying that so somebody out there should give you another shot.
BEHAR: Thank you so much for joining me Phil.
DONAHUE: Thank you very much.
DONAHUE: And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
