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Al & Tipper Gore Split; Palin`s New Neighbor; Science of Alan Alda

Aired June 02, 2010 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, some say the split between Al and Tipper Gore may have to do with the loss of the 2000 election. Hear that, Scalia? Let it be on your head.

Then, desperate to stop the oil from leaking into the Gulf, the government turned to director James Cameron. Hey, what about Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby? Don`t they have experience with leaks?

And Charlie Sheen is facing 30 days in jail for assault, but while he`s there, he`ll spend his time having new head shots taken, one forward and one sideways.

That and more right now.

Al and Tipper Gore have split after 40 years of marriage. You know, I understand. People grow apart. They want different things. You want to go out and see "Sex and the City", he wants to stay home and install solar panels. It happens.

With me to discuss the split are Doug Hattaway, former Gore campaign spokesman and president of Hattaway Communications; Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist and associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital; and Lloyd Grove, editor-at-large for the DailyBeast.com.

Ok, let me start with you Lloyd. The Gores have a legendary partnership. I mean everybody is shocked at this to tell you the truth. Are you?

LLOYD GROVE, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, DAILYBEAST.COM: All their friends, everybody who knew them is totally shocked. If they can`t make it, what does it say about the institution of marriage?

BEHAR: Well, it may say that they have a shelf life.

GROVE: Well, probably so, but I would never have expected that -- they were such a great partnership, political partnership. She always had his back and every time I`ve met with them over the last 20 years or so, she was always very supportive and tried to humanize him because he`s a very sort of stiff, cerebral guy.

BEHAR: Oh, yes. That`s not just a caricature, you know, characterization of him that`s false. He really is stiff.

GROVE: Yes, he has a sense of humor. And he can be fun to be with. The last time I was with him about 4 months ago, he was showing me the app on his iPhone, the camera app and being very playful with it. But, you know, he is stiff and very cerebral and --

BEHAR: But why now? Gail, I mean why now?

GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Yes.

BEHAR: Forty years, you put in your time. Now you`re throwing - -

SALTZ: First of all, it is unusual. This isn`t a new empty nest. That`s a big divorce key. This is later. This is not typical, but I think the why nows often have to do for late-stage divorce with you reach a certain stage in life where you frankly, you really feel like you`ve only got so much time left.

You want every day to count. Time feels like it`s moving fast. You want to do what you want to do and frankly, you`re entitled to that. You`re raised your family. You`ve done your job, you`ve been responsible and you want to do things.

And so if you diverge in what you want, you may no longer have the patience to keep trying to make it work. Keep bending over for the other one, particularly if you haven`t nurtured it. If along the way, you keep growing and growing but moving in opposite directions in terms of what you want in goals for a later life then you know --

And by the way, I don`t think that means marriage has a shelf life, not at all. They are under an unusual pressure. They are essentially celebrities.

They are scrutinized. They have opportunities --

BEHAR: Yes, but they`ve weathered that for so many years. They weathered this for so many years. Why now? They`re not being scrutinized more now than they used to be.

SALTZ: Yes, well, they owe the public less. I mean -- we`re going to talk about this for three days and then we`re going to be done. This is not a presidential campaign anymore.

GROVE: I`m a little surprised why they made this announcement at all. They could have lived under the radar and no one would have been the wiser.

(CROSSTALK)

SALTZ: But this gives them an opportunity by the way, to go on and perhaps choose another partner in a very moral and decent way, not cheating on each other but deciding maybe there might be someone out there who wants to accompany them around the world and win Nobel Peace Prizes or --

BEHAR: So you don`t -- all right, I`m going to go to Doug for a minute. But you don`t believe there`s somebody else in the picture yet.

SALTZ: At this point. There`s not evidence for that.

BEHAR: No evidence for that.

GROVE: Everybody says not.

SALTZ: It would be a decent way to do it.

BEHAR: Everybody says not.

SALTZ: Right.

BEHAR: But what does everybody know? Everybody doesn`t know anything.

GROVE: You want there to be.

BEHAR: No, I don`t. But it`s my experience over my many years on this planet, that there usually is a third party when people split up. Otherwise, oh, you`re a little tired of each other or need your space, no big deal unless there`s somebody else.

SALTZ: That`s a fair statement.

DOUG HATTAWAY, FORMER GORE CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN: I`ve worked with a lot of politicians and their spouses and I`m surprised any of them stay together given the kinds of pressures people come under. Even when they`re not under that sort of presidential campaign glare like you mentioned, there`s so much public scrutiny, there`s competing priorities. There`s a lot going on when you`re in the public eye in any way, shape and form.

I`ve worked with politicians at the local and the state and presidential level and all the couples come under lots of different kinds of pressures. I always thought -- I think people, as Lloyd said, were surprised and sad about this because they saw a real spark between Al and Tipper. It`s something everybody could admire. It was real.

BEHAR: That`s true. But you know, Doug, you worked with him on the 2000 election campaign. A lot of people are saying, or some people, that the stress of that election really did him in and that it was a really tipping point for the marriage. What do you say to that?

HATTAWAY: I wouldn`t know how it affected the relationship. I know during the campaign, what I saw that they both worked their hearts out for that campaign. The interactions I had with the two of them on the campaign trial; Tipper certainly was putting her all into it.

I always thought he was a better campaigner when they were together because you could see that spark in there. She brought out sort of spontaneity and a sense of humor that`s not always apparent with Al Gore. So I`m sure it was a huge stress on both of them.

During the recount I was sort of in the thick of it in Florida and Tipper called me up to wish me well to say that she wished me the best when I was down there. God knows what they were going through, but she was clearly invested in and part of it.

BEHAR: I would think that that was a factor. That was upsetting to me. I almost went into a depression when I saw what the Supreme Court did, so I don`t blame him.

GROVE: It`s like a death. It sort of had the impact of a death of a parent on him. And on her as well.

BEHAR: And there was a --

SALTZ: It sometimes brings out the worst of each of you. When you have a terrible loss or terrible stress like that, that doesn`t bring out the best in you, it can bring out the worst. The question is, does it bring you closer and do you become more intimate because you could help each other through that. Or does it do the opposite where you`re like, boy, I do not like the way you`re reacting to this. You`re really dragging me down.

HATTAWAY: It was 10 years ago.

BEHAR: And then there was the --

(CROSSTALK).

BEHAR: In 2007, there was the drug arrest of one of his kids --

SALTZ: Right.

BEHAR: And that was a stressful thing and some people say that Tipper has had some depression periods in her life.

GROVE: She`s been very public about it.

BEHAR: She has, yes.

The other thing is -- I was reading that some people are saying - - I keep saying some people. Where`s the one I`m reading, anyway.

That since Tipper sublimated her own career, she wanted to be a photojournalist when they got married. A lot of women back in the day did that. And I wonder if that`s been eating at her all these years, that she`s been the good political wife all these years. You know, stand by your man and all that crap.

SALTZ: Well, you know, when you reach a certain age, right, and you start thinking what did I do with my life? And, you know, I haven`t got that much more of it left; that really can be a tough cross to bear for a lot of women. What I did for my life is I made him somebody.

(CROSSTALK)

GROVE: I think Tipper actually enjoyed aspects of politics.

HATTAWAY: That`s true.

GROVE: I mean, she was a very public person -- In fact, I think she probably enjoyed it more than he did. I think he grew up the son of a --

BEHAR: Do you think so, Doug?

HATTAWAY: I saw -- she -- every time I saw her on the campaign trail, she really seemed to be enjoying herself. She would take pictures of the campaign. She had the best view of anybody, sort of behind the scenes.

I always thought she was accomplished in her own right. She was an accomplished photographer. She was an advocate for mental health. And sort of -- I thought she used that platform that being a high profile spouse gave her. I don`t -- have never considered her as somebody in the shadows.

BEHAR: It`s not the same as Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, Senator. You don`t say Tipper Gore, photojournalist; you say Tipper Gore, wife of Al Gore. That is, I think, a bone of contention. I would have it because I`m like that.

Now, a Gore associate -- one of his associates said that separation means quote, "We need some time off from one another," but he`s flying all over the world. They`re not together that much. What time away from each other do they need Lloyd?

GROVE: Well, she wanted to enjoy life. She wanted to enjoy her grandchildren. She wanted to live in the mansion they just bought in Montecito.

He`s a very driven guy. He wants to go and evangelize against global warming. He wants --

BEHAR: Yes.

GROVE: Has all kinds of projects and businesses that he`s interested in.

BEHAR: As he should.

GROVE: And she didn`t want to follow him along, I don`t think.

BEHAR: I see.

SALTZ: If he wants to work and she wants to play, I mean, some variation of that --

BEHAR: Or actualize herself.

SALTZ: Very good -- wonderful.

GROVE: I love that word.

SALTZ: They`re on different paths and if they want companionship for their paths, that`s really the issue. If you don`t want to be in the limelight for being the next Tiger Woods or whatever, but you want a companion that`s going to be intense with you and travel the globe and do this --

BEHAR: You want a partner.

SALTZ: Yes, you want a partner.

BEHAR: See, that`s a good point. Because at this age, you say, why do this at this age. The one thing you do want in your 60s is to have your pal with you on your journey and maybe that`s the real issue.

SALTZ: The sad thing is that no pal is going to share a life narrative that the two of them have shared. That`s the thing about a long- term marriage. You share the kids, the grand kids, the knowing each other, the whole ups and downs. That is so valuable. That`s the reason a lot of people stay married. It is hard --

BEHAR: Well, that`s the sad part of the split. The unsad part is that they`ll find new ones and a little bit new and exciting or different.

SALTZ: That may be what they`re looking.

BEHAR: Right? Now, so you don`t think there are any -- that there`s anybody else?

GROVE: I mean everything I`ve heard is to the contrary. I think that it`s amicable. I don`t think they`re going to be fighting over money and who knows.

I mean, there`s a guy named Larry King who seems to be getting back together and this is not a final -- this is a separation.

BEHAR: That`s right, that`s true.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Doug what do you know about that?

HATTAWAY: Their statement said that this was a mutually supportive thing. And that`s the one piece I wasn`t surprised about, to hear that they were, that this was something that they were -- had talked about a lot together and were being mutually supportive about.

So I was shocked to hear the news, I`m not surprised to hear that this is something they`re going to work through together.

BEHAR: Is there anybody on this panel who is shocked that their marriage is splitting up and the Clintons are together?

GROVE: It`s an irony. I don`t know if I`m shocked. It seems like the Clintons made an accommodation about the kind of marriage they have long ago and that`s not the kind of marriage the Gores had. In fact, the Gores were very tough on Bill Clinton --

BEHAR: I know.

GROVE: -- in the 2000 camera campaign. So --

SALTZ: Yes.

BEHAR: A lot of people who got divorced were tough on the Clintons --

GROVE: I think you could have Bill Clinton as guest and ask him about this.

SALTZ: But doing what I do --

GROVE: It actually would be very interesting.

BEHAR: Yes, I`m sure he`d love to come on and talk about his peccadilloes.

GROVE: With you, yes.

BEHAR: Yes. Sure.

SALTZ: I would say you could never be shocked because the truth is, you never know what`s really going on inside people`s minds, inside people`s marriages, inside people`s bedrooms. So --

BEHAR: That`s true. Thanks, everybody, very interesting. We`ll be back in a minute. It`s true.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: You know there`s something other than Russia that Sarah Palin can see from her house. It`s Joe McGinniss, the author who moved in next door to Palin while -- while he writes a book about her. She`s calling foul claiming her privacy is being invaded. Now, a nasty war of words has erupted between the two.

With me now are Ana Marie Cox, Washington correspondent for GQ magazine; and Lizz Winstead, comedienne and co-creator of the "Daily Show".

Ok, Palin has made McGinniss a target of a national -- of national harassment because he moved in next door to her. Ok, he`s renting a house. You know the story. Most people I think know it at this point. She`s tweeted and Facebooked about him. A conservative radio talk show host gave out his e-mail address which he had to shut down and after he moved in, she posted a Facebook, a picture of him on Facebook in the house.

Now, is she now invading his privacy -- Lizz?

LIZZ WINSTEAD, COMEDIAN: Here`s the thing. If -- if she does this in her personal life --

BEHAR: Yes.

WINSTEAD: -- you know, just the pre-emptive crazy, can you imagine if she was holding a -- high public office. It`s like it would be horrible. This is how she reacts -- she`s just reactive and bizarre.

BEHAR: Yes, she overreacts.

WINSTEAD: Yes and I think she is being a little bit weird. I mean it`s -- at first, I was like, it`s kind of weird he moved in next door --

BEHAR: Yes.

WINSTEAD: -- but then my second thought, was, he made it very public he was doing this. So -- so -- because he knew she was going to react this way. I mean A, he`ll get press for it, but B, why not move in next door to her? It`s an investigative journalists` dream to have the subject that you are -- in the house next to you open.

How awesome is that?

BEHAR: Ana Marie, do you find it creepy at all that he`s there?

ANA MARIE COX, GQ MAGAZINE: Yes, I mean I think, as a feminist, you know as a woman, it`s the male gay is a little unsettling, but as a journalist, I find it really upsetting the way that she`s reacting to him.

And I have to agree with Lizz, I think the over -- the over reaction and the escalation that she`s done, can you imagine if she had at her disposal, you know a private police force or the national police force?

I mean, if she was actually holding office and had an investigative team that she have working for her, if she had access to people`s records, if she could do whatever she wanted, imagine what kind of havoc she could she wreak in this guy`s life.

But of course it makes me think, remember Trooper Gate, that all seems -- this all seems really familiar now and even more unsettling.

WINSTEAD: Well and it also she feels like she deserves this power and that`s the part that freaks me out. That she really feels like any amount of power that she is given, whether she`s governor or just a talking bot, it feels like she just a second she just a moment of power, she just feels like she can do whatever she wants to do.

COX: And not that she can do whatever she wants to do but use it against her enemies.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

COX: She is someone who definitely like, feels like she has enemies.

WINSTEAD: Right.

COX: And that they are personal enemies. Like she can`t take this to the level of abstraction.

BEHAR: Paranoid.

COX: She can`t think of this as like a journalist covering a subject, right?

BEHAR: Right.

COX: It is Joe McGinniss attacking her, her personally. And now and she brought her kids into this, which I have to say I don`t forgive anything you know I don`t --

BEHAR: Well, she implies in her Facebook thing --

COX: Right.

BEHAR: -- that he`s going to be staring at Piper through the window.

COX: Right.

BEHAR: Which automatically makes him into some kind of pervert which is not his intention all.

Ok, the fight escalated this morning when McGinniss went on NBC`s "Today Show". Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE MCGINNISSS, AUTHOR/SARAH PALIN`S NEIGHBOR: It`s probably a lesson for the American people of the power Palin has to incite hatred and her willingness and readiness to do it. She has pushed a button and unleashed the hounds of hell and now that they are up there slobbering (ph) and barking and growling.

And that`s the same kind of tactic. And I`m not calling her a Nazi, but that`s the same kind of tactic the Nazi troopers used in Germany in the `30s and I don`t think there`s any place for it in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Ok, now she says in response, "When I say all right, leave my kids alone, it means simply, that let my kids have a fun summer without having a journalist 15 feet from their play area. How that equates me with the Nazis is quite beyond me."

Ok, she`s not -- he didn`t really equate her with the Nazis. He`s saying the tactic is very Nazi like.

WINSTEAD: Well, I just think any time you know --

BEHAR: Which is -- which is what? Which is unleashing the wrath of the Palinites out there on this guy.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

BEHAR: That`s where the Nazi tactic comes in because when she says they`re attacking or being a threat to my children, all of these little Palinites go berserk.

WINSTEAD: I know but just Nazi thing kind of like, he -- he has to (INAUDIBLE) the Nazi thing.

BEHAR: Over the edge.

WINSTEAD: Over the edge and you know what, I just find it boring.

Here`s the thing I think that`s the biggest problem with Palin. Is that why didn`t Bravo find her two weeks before McCain did. I mean, we could just have had the real housewife?

BEHAR: I know, we have to blame him.

WINSTEAD: -- of Alaska and have the gun because she is exactly like that crazy woman on the "Housewives of New Jersey".

BEHAR: Yes, the other thing is that isn`t she the one who put her kids in the spotlight in the first place?

WINSTEAD: Yes.

BEHAR: I mean, at the convention, when they were passing that kid out more than a joint at Grateful Dead concert.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

BEHAR: Remember that?

WINSTEAD: And drag them on (INAUDIBLE).

BEHAR: I mean, she started it as far as I can tell.

WINSTEAD: She already wrote a book about her own dumb life any way and as far as I can tell when Joe McGinniss writes about Sarah Palin, he doesn`t go into her personal life.

he`s writing about whether or not she has a modicum of skill --

BEHAR: Yes.

WINSTEAD: -- to run anything.

BEHAR: Right.

Now do you think, Ana Marie -- do you think --

COX: She`s certainly good at running her on branding.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

COX: I mean, I think, that -- that`s what she has a skill at. I mean, I don`t think she has -- she could be the CEO of anything other than you know, Palinville, the Palin company. And she`s branded herself really expertly, like even this, first her outcry over McGinniss, puts her in this weird, non-threatening female position.

I mean we sort of (INAUDIBLE) good about her that she`s a strong woman. But everything she does in the public eye makes me think she`s actually very retrograde.

BEHAR: So isn`t this -- isn`t this -- the fence is up. Shouldn`t that be the end of the conversation? The fence is up.

WINSTEAD: Well, the fence is up, yes. But you know what? I just feel too, it`s not brave to attack through Facebook and Twitter. You`re a grown woman with a public platform. I mean, it`s really weird.

BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, ladies, very much. And you can catch the fabulous Lizz Winstead at the Flynn Center for the Performing Arts, in Burlington, Vermont on June 19th.

We`ll be back in a minute with Alan Alda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: As oil pours into the Gulf, Washington is getting offers of help from Hollywood. First Kevin Costner offered assistance, now director James Cameron is trying to fix the mess. Apparently BP knows nothing. I like to think out of the box, but this is a little scary.

With me now is actor, author, director Alan Alda. I know you can`t solve this, Alan but can James Cameron solve it?

ALAN ALDA, ACTOR: Well, he`s got $2 billion he can put into it. That might help.

BEHAR: Really.

ALDA: Yes.

BEHAR: BP has $2 billion --

ALDA: They`ve got a lot more.

BEHAR: They have even more.

What about the fact he has a private fleet of deep driver craft?

ALDA: I have no idea. I`m not up on this. I don`t know. Maybe he can help. That would be great.

BEHAR: Stephen Hawking is being honored.

ALDA: Stephen Hawking is being honored tonight at the gala -- the kickoff of the World Science Festival in New York. And it`s really -- it`s very exciting. He`s a very exciting man. As a scientist, as a courageous person, he`s kind of inspiring, I think, to a lot of people.

BEHAR: Right, well he doesn`t speak, right? He has to speak through a computer.

ALDA: He has the computer talk. Yes.

BEHAR: So how will he do his acceptance speech?

ALDA: I don`t even know if he will. He may have programmed something into it. It takes him a while to put an answer or statement into the computer, so he may -- if he says anything, he may have it all in there already.

BEHAR: Yes, so who else is going to be at the science fair?

ALDA: Yo-yo Ma and --

BEHAR: Yo-yo Ma, the cellist.

ALDA: The cellist. You know what`s wonderful about the idea of a science festival is that it brings together great science -- great scientists and artists, so that through art, you can get a view of science. You can get a doorway into science that you wouldn`t have had otherwise. It`s easier to go through the doorway of art sometimes than higher mathematics

BEHAR: Well, that`s what you do. Because I mean I`ve spoken to you many times and you`re very, very interested in science.

ALDA: I am, but I don`t know math and I don`t know chemistry.

BEHAR: You know math.

ALDA: No, I don`t. I`m just interested in learning more but I don`t really know anything. You know what I`m good at? Asking dumb questions.

BEHAR: Like?

ALDA: Not like you.

BEHAR: I ask dumb questions.

ALDA: No, no. Your questions are way too smart.

BEHAR: My question for you is why are you so interested in science? Just generally because you`re interested?

ALDA: I always have been. All my life. When I was a boy, I used to invent things. I invented a lazy Susan for a refrigerator when I was 10. And even -- there was a refrigerator company that started manufacturing them, quite apart from me, they didn`t take my idea or anything but then they stopped. I think because ketchup bottles were flying around kitchens across America. You know, you turn that lazy Susan.

BEHAR: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

ALDA: In other words, it`s going to wind up like a roulette wheel.

BEHAR: Exactly.

ALDA: That invention didn`t really pan out so well. So I became an actor and decided to get famous.

BEHAR: You`re an actor, you`re a writer, you`re a screen writer, you`re a director. You`re my Renaissance man, you are.

ALDA: Thanks.

BEHAR: Thanks for doing this. And so, thank you Alan. Wait a second, June 2nd to the 6th, the World Science Festival.

ALDA: You know what if people -- there are 40 events in four days. It`s going to be hard to pick what people want to go too.

BEHAR: Well, they should look into it.

ALDA: They should go to worldsciencefestival.com.

BEHAR: Ok. We`ll banner that. I hope that`s on the thing there.

ALDA: All right that`s good. Thank you.

BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be back in a minute. Thanks Alan.

ALDA: Thank you.

BEHAR: Ok.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: According to "People," magazine Charlie Sheen will spend one month in jail for assaulting his wife. Please at least give him two and half months just for the symmetry of it all. Here to discuss this and some other interesting stories are senior editor of "People" magazine David Caplan, comedian Judy Gold and humorist and author "It`s Not That I`m Bitter" Gina Barreca. Let`s start with Charlie Sheen. OK David, "People" magazine has the story. What`s going on? How much time is he going to get?

DAVID CAPLAN, SENIOR EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well a source tells "People" that he`s going to plead guilty to a misdemeanor on June seventh in Colorado and on that, he will serve 30 days in prison. However, the source adds that he could be let out after 15 days for good behavior.

BEHAR: First of all why did he choose a plea deal?

CAPLAN: This really worked out beneficial to him and his lawyers, he wanted it to be done quickly. He`s going to be shooting "TWO AND HALF MEN" in August. And you know they sort of agreed to this deal, basically. He just wants it done, he doesn`t want this drawn out, he doesn`t want to plead like not guilty and have all the dirty laundry.

JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: Who cares what he wants, OK? He`s awful. He doesn`t want this, he doesn`t want that. I don`t understand why he gets to decide.

BEHAR: Because he`s a celebrity.

CAPLAN: And that gets into the question of, is he getting special treatment.

BEHAR: Yes.

CAPLAN: So I think your reactions -

GINA BARRECA, HUMORIST: Yes he is getting special treatment.

CAPLAN: There is something there.

BARRECA: I mean, of course, he`s getting special treatment. Anytime first of all, somebody with, you know, who`s basically part of the Hollywood dynasty, he`s the equivalent of the Kennedy`s right? And because everybody still thinks his father is president. So everybody`s thinking now the president`s son is going to jail. He`s going to jail in Aspen. So basically they`ll make him watch --

BEHAR: Who thinks that his father`s is the president? Snooki and the situation?

(LAUGHTER)

GOLD: -- Kennedy`s -

BARRECA: And who do you think is looking at celebrities who go do jail? This is who`s looking. Snooki is very upset. She wants to visit him. She`s going to write to him in prison. There`s that list of women. He`s going to get a lot of dates. Women like to know where men are at night.

BEHAR: Well you know a lot of men become very attractive while in prison like the Menendez brothers.

GOLD: Oh yes they`re hot, especially Eric without the toupee. He is pretty hot, yes.

BEHAR: Now, what would a non-celebrity get if he got 30 days?

CAPLAN: I mean it could be so much more because there are other misdemeanors. And he easily could have been in jail longer. But you know I should add though, in all seriousness though, this was something involving Brook Mueller, his wife. So in terms -

BEHAR: She didn`t press charges. CAPLAN: Yes that - no she`s part of this, really, so they honestly consult with her, what does she want. We`re saying really who`s doing this, it`s more than Charlie and the government trying to come to a deal.

GOLD: I see.

CAPLAN: She`s totally involved and none of them want it to be blown up.

BEHAR: Yes, what do you make of that?

GOLD: They want to parent the child.

CAPLAN: They are very warm and fuzzy.

GOLD: They`ve done such a great job thus far. Gays can`t adopt, but these two can have kids.

CAPLAN: Exactly.

BARRECA: But isn`t it also the idea that somehow because they`re combined, they`re making this stick for everybody. And if she puts him away, she loses her part of the stick. I mean he`s her straight man so to speak. Or he`s her prop.

BEHAR: Yes but there`s a little -- it`s called domestic abuse. He put a knife to the woman`s throat.

BARRECA: Absolutely.

BEHAR: At the very least, it`s intimidation even if he didn`t cut her.

CAPLAN: You know and also in terms of the public perception both of them have sort of tried to do some redeeming. And he went to rehab for undisclosed reason, she went to rehab. And it was known for substance abuse. So they`ve already started the reputation has already taken a bit of a head. And there`s -- in that Hollywood way, trying to sort of you know make some sort of redemption. I know - Jessica --

GOLD: What does that mean - undisclosed reason that he went to rehab.

CAPLAN: He doesn`t want to say. And I agree, that`s what makes it even more suspect. And there was so much --

BEHAR: Well why would you go to rehab except if you`re a substance abuser or sex addict? Those are the two reasons right?

CAPLAN: He`s had anger issues, obviously, big surprise -

GOLD: I have anger and I don`t put a knife to anyone`s throat.

BEHAR: Not yet.

GOLD: My own.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Let`s move on to Al and Tipper Gore. How shocked were you that they`re getting a divorce?

GOLD: I could not believe it. And first of all, all right 40 years and I always thought you know they were just the perfect couple. And then, you know, first thing that comes to my mind, one is having an affair. There`s no way they just grew apart --

BEHAR: Listen, I speculated that, too. But this moment in time, there`s no evidence that either one is cheating.

GOLD: There is no evidence -- I think everyone thinks that. And I always looked at them, watched them. You know they had all these things online where they showed when they got married up until now. And they seemed like the perfect couple.

BEHAR: I know.

BARRECA: I`m sure, you know, if there`s somebody messing around here, that it might be some nymphet from Greenpeace -

GOLD: No.

BARRECA: She`s 12. If that turns out to be true, I am turning on every air conditioner, every light, the toaster oven - all my carbon footprint all over everything in heels.

BEHAR: Just to screw Al Gore.

CAPLAN: -- Tipper.

GOLD: I`m thinking it`s Tipper with a woman.

CAPLAN: Tipper.

BEHAR: You think so?

GOLD: That`s what I think.

BEHAR: Tipper as a lesbian?

GOLD: I don`t know, it would be good.

BEHAR: A lot of women in their 50s and 60s, suddenly, they`re lesbianing it up. I don`t get that --

GOLD: Am I a verb now? I have been lesbianing it up for years -

BEHAR: I know you have.

GOLD: And I haven`t even reached 50 yet.

BEHAR: I do and watch what happens when that happens -

GOLD: I know -

BEHAR: I have you here now, let me ask you a question.

GOLD: Yes.

BEHAR: What is about that? That you know like Meredith Baxter Birney, she was married with a bunch of kids, then suddenly decides she`s a lesbian.

GOLD: Because I think that 30 years ago, when they were in their 20`s or 40 years ago when they were in their 20`s, it was so unaccepted and they really wanted to fit in and wanted to be normal, quote unquote. I couldn`t do it. I couldn`t do it.

BARRECA: Also get fed up at 50. I mean there are women that are dying because --

GOLD: You don`t become a lesbian because you get fed up.

BARRECA: With men, yes, you do.

GOLD: No way.

BARRECA: I have friends, not you personally, who said, forget it.

GOLD: With a woman.

BARRECA: I`m going with a woman.

GOLD: OK.

BEHAR: I don`t buy it either. I don`t buy that.

BARRECA: I do because -

GOLD: All of a sudden, you decide --

BARRECA: Because you have to perform.

BEHAR: You feel annoyed with your husband, so you decide to sleep with a woman.

GOLD: Yes no, it doesn`t happen, sorry.

BEHAR: It would be interesting. Have you ever tried it, do you realize what you have to do?

GOLD: Joy! Why are you acting like it`s so awful?

BEHAR: I`m not saying it`s so awful, just something you have to -

CAPLAN: There`s the learning curve.

BEHAR: I`m just saying do you understand the sexual nature of it?

BARRECA: Yes, I`ve seen the diagrams.

BEHAR: Yes.

BARRECA: But I`m just saying I also friends.

GOLD: But - where`s the diagram?

BARRECA: Not diagram, there`s a pop-up book.

GOLD: Oh really, OK.

BARRECA: It`s very instructing.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLD: Oh really, I just followed my instincts.

BEHAR: David do you have anything to say on this topic?

CAPLAN: I`m like stumped but I do not think that, yes, anyone`s going to choose being a lesbian. Because that`s the next Tipper cover.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: You don`t turn into a lesbian. You are or you`re not.

GOLD: Right, I am so telling my mother to watch tonight.

BEHAR: All right here`s another good story. Michelle "Bombshell" McGee did an interview with Canadian TV station CTV. She says her Nazi costume is not racist, just Anti-Semitic. Well thank you Jesus. Now Mel Gibson doesn`t have to take her off Christmas list. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t believe wearing a Nazi costume indicated racism?

MICHELLE MCGEE, JESSE JAMES` ALLEGED MISTRESS: No, not racism, Anti- Semitism, yes. If that would be the intention of putting the custom on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anti-Semitism is prejudice against Jews which is actually racism.

MCGEE: Well that`s your view on that, I don`t see it that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: She doesn`t see it that way. She sees it her way.

GOLD: Actually, Hitler didn`t see it that way.

BEHAR: Exactly. Exactly, you know I have made the point before that Edith Stein was nun.

GOLD: Right.

BEHAR: Who was a Jewish woman -

GOLD: Born Jewish, yes.

BEHAR: And then she became a catholic. And she went to Auschwitz -- she didn`t become a lesbian. She became catholic.

GOLD: She became catholic and a saint.

BEHAR: See, you can change.

GOLD: Didn`t she become a saint?

BEHAR: She became a saint as well. She`s up for sainthood.

BARRECA: Yes I think it`s too soon to be become a saint. But I also think, look, if this girl, the bombshell girl, she doesn`t understand Anti- Semitism because it has too many syllables. This is somebody reading the phrase Anti-Semitism off a teleprompter, she doesn`t know what it meant, that`s why she thinks it is a matter of opinion.

GOLD: Well I think if she, if the oil painting, whatever her name is, Jesse James` girlfriend --

BEHAR: Bombshell McGee. The oil painting - she`s more like hieroglyphic.

GOLD: If she wants to be in show business, Anti- Semitism is the way to go.

BEHAR: You know just ask Mel Gibson.

GOLD: Exactly.

BEHAR: He`s doing very well.

GOLD: Yes he`s doing excellent.

BEHAR: Here`s another look at the infamous Nazi photo from TMZ which McGee said was the photograph`s idea. David does she have a problem saying no? She couldn`t say to the photographer, don`t take this picture?

CAPLAN: She`s definitely, a yes girl, and that`s what I`m saying about it, she`s taken these photos. And it is racist. And even if there`s a decision of trying to - whether or not, she`s correct and you know her definitions of Anti-Semitism racism is like fringe. It shouldn`t be looking at such a person like that.

BEHAR: Yes.

CAPLAN: She`s just doing this for attention. I mean she was in Toronto promoting a website for people to have affairs with other people.

BEHAR: You know the need for attention -- I think those people should go to rehab.

GOLD: Yes that is true, that is an addiction.

BEHAR: That is an addiction.

GOLD: You need to have every focus on.

BEHAR: She also has a last little note here before we go, that Sandra Bullock should be thankful. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGEE: Twisted type of way, I guess Sandra should be thankful that I did come forward and let her know her husband did cheat on her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: I think Sandra should send her a gift basket to thank her. Edible fruit.

GOLD: Bagels.

BEHAR: Bagels and -

GOLD: And cream cheese, frugalah -

BEHAR: All right we got to go. Thank you so much, everybody.

Up next, in the age of TMZ and Iphones, have the paparazzi gone from nuisance to public menace? We`ll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: "Twilight" star Kristen Stewart compared being targeted by intrusive paparazzi to being raped. Is her analogy extreme? Sure but is it without merit? Are the new breed of photographers, what some call the stockarazzi going too far to get the money shot? With me to talk about it are Ron Galella photographer and paparazzi pioneer and Ben Evenstad Celebrity photographer and owner of National Photo Group. OK let me start with you, Ron. First of all, shouldn`t you be 50 feet away from me?

RON GALELLA, PHOTOGRAPHER: No, not you.

BEHAR: No, I`m not that big a star. You really are going to the enchiladas. So what do you make of Kirsten Stewart`s statement that she feels like she`s being raped by the paparazzis.

GALELLA: Well, it`s an exaggeration, but I think that there`s just too many photographers and it`s like gang banging and it may sensitive stars may feel that way.

BEHAR: Well gang banging is a form of rape, isn`t it?

GALELLA: Yes.

BEHAR: So maybe she has a point.

GALELLA: Maybe.

BEHAR: It is funny you should use that phrase. But Ben do stars deserve any privacy at all? I mean after all they are private citizens, as well as, public figures and they don`t seem to get a break. They`re being hounded constantly. Ben?

BEN EVENSTAD, CELEBRITY PHOTOGRAPHER: When they`re out in public, they`re subject to having their photo taken, but Ron brings up a good point. I`ve been in this business 11 years. When I started, there was 25 guys in L.A. and now, there`s over 200. So when you have someone like Kristen Stewart, who is you know very famous internationally because of these "Twilight" movies, she`s going to be followed by 20, 30 guys every day. It`s definitely intense. I think her choice of words was poor. I`m sure women who have been raped would beg to differ that a movie star having their photo taken akin to what happen to them. But, yes, the spotlight can be intense.

BEHAR: You know, years ago, the studio system used to protect the stars. And they`d set up a photo shoot and you guys would take a picture that looked spontaneous, but wasn`t.

EVENSTAD: Yes.

BEHAR: And then you changed that, Ron. I saw the movie about you last night. And you did change all of that because you were one of the people who hid in the bushes and jumps out and scares people in a certain way and gets that shot of them looking surprised.

GALELLA: Yes, that`s what I do. We see stars on TV and the movie screens and we want to see them in real life. The human side of them. And that`s what I like to capture. Them in parties, being themselves. Off screen.

BEHAR: Well you hounded for years, you hounded Jacqueline Kennedy, you became Jackie Onassis and you hounded her.

GALELLA: Well my best year of photographing Jacky was 1970. And I photographed her 20 times, that`s not really, 20 times in one year. That`s my best year I`ve gotten her. And look at these featherweights, what I call Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears. They`re bombarded every day and night and they love it.

BEHAR: You think they love it?

GALELLA: Oh yes that`s why they do it. They dress sexy and they prance in front of the cameras.

BEHAR: Well Jennifer Aniston has -- is trying to advocate laws to curb their access to her.

GALELLA: Well they photographed -- half nude in the backyard. That`s wrong, that`s invasion of privacy.

BEHAR: Absolutely and then these pictures, Ben, do you take pictures of girls on beaches and show all their cellulite and everything and all their fat hanging out?

GALELLA: I don`t do that, I think that`s negative. I like to show beauty, I`m after beauty, real emotions on their face and gestures. That`s what I look for. I don`t look for this -

BEHAR: I see.

GALELLA: Stuff that they look -- because they look for the negative because they`re so desperate to fill the spaces in magazines and whatever.

BEHAR: Ben, now, you got the controversial last shot of Michael Jackson on the gurney, right? Is there any boundary, any moral or physical boundary that you would not cross?

EVENSTAD: Of course. There`s many moral and physical boundaries I would not cross. Primarily, we don`t cross any legal boundaries. We don`t do anything illegal in getting these photos. I`ve never been arrested, never been sued, but at the same time, Michael Jackson was the most famous person on the planet and his death was incredibly a news worthy event and we were there and were you know, not happy he did, but we`re glad we got the photo. It`s a very powerful photo.

BEHAR: Yes, how do you feel about that, Ron?

GALELLA: There is a market for that, but I don`t like to cover funerals. For instance, when Grace Kelly died, the National Enquirer signed me to photograph the funeral. I said, no, I`m not going to go. I went in the dark room and print great shots of her when she was living, beautiful shots, one of my favorites stars.

BEHAR: Yes she was very nice to you, too.

GALELLA: Yes, she was.

BEHAR: She was not angry with you.

GALELLA: Never, never.

BEHAR: How much did a photo of Jackson fetch for you, Ben? A lot of money I bet?

EVENSTAD: Yes, I don`t want to say exactly, but has made more money than any paparazzi photo in history.

BEHAR: Yes you say sometimes that they`re looking for it. And Ben is saying they are public figures. What about Princess Diana? A lot of people say that the paparazzi basically killed that girl.

GALELLA: That`s not true.

BEHAR: So how do you respond to that?

GALELLA: It was the driver that was drunk and drugged that killed Princess Diana.

BEHAR: But he was being followed at a huge speed by all of these paparazzi.

GALELLA: Yes but he lost control. If he hadn`t been drunk or drugged, he would have had control of the vehicle and she would be living.

BEHAR: Yes right, go ahead, Ben, wait, we`re going to come back with more. Hang on a second. We`ll continue this discussion after the break. Hang on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with paparazzi Ron Galella and Ben Evenstad. OK Ben, what were you going to say about the Princess Di question?

EVENSTAD: Well in addition to what Ron said, which was absolutely true, the driver was drunk -

BEHAR: Right.

EVENSTAD: And on drugs, all the photographers knew where she was going. She was going to Al-Fayed`s father`s house. They were following, not chasing. And it was the excessive speed of the driver who was drunk that caused that accident. Had nothing to do with the paparazzi.

BEHAR: Right. OK. Now some stories clearly don`t want you around, Ron, or you, Ben. Like Sean Penn is one of them. And in your book - in the movie they talk about Marlon Brando knocking a couple teeth out. They just don`t want you around. Do you feel intimidated by any of these stars when they say, look, get the "F" away from me. I mean they`re really strict.

GALELLA: Yes, I honor their wishes. But you see, my approach is I don`t ask. I don`t ask permission. I photograph them fast with my camera with a wide-angle lens, pre-focused, and I get the candid shots. That`s what I`m looking for. The surprise on their faces or whatever. And after I get the picture, if they say, protest, I stop, and I leave. But I`m one ahead on them because I shot a couple.

BEHAR: Ben, do you stop or do you just keep at it? When they say don`t --

EVENSTAD: Our approach is a little different than Ron`s. What primarily we try to do is stay very far away with very long telephoto lenses and not be seen. We have specially-equipped vehicles where we can conceal ourselves. The candid photos we`re looking for are the ones where the star does not know we`re there.

GALELLA: That`s the best way. The long lens. A lot of them don`t do that. A lot of them use the wide angle -- get close.

BEHAR: In your face.

GALELLA: They all see them and the stars know that they`re there and they split and don`t get the good pictures they`re looking for.

BEHAR: You`re kind of stalking people, aren`t you?

GALELLA: I don`t like the word stalking.

BEHAR: But you are saying that you`re far away with a long-range --

GALELLA: Yes, long lens.

BEHAR: -- missile is what it`s like. And that`s kind of stalking somebody. They don`t know you`re watching them. What else would you call that?

GALELLA: But they`re in public areas, they`re public figures, it`s fair game.

BEHAR: They have no right to any privacy once they`re out of their house, is that it?

GALELLA: That`s right. The ground is public.

EVENSTAD: Not if you`re in the public eye.

BEHAR: I know. What about people like the octomom? She`s not a celebrity and has a bunch of kids to protect. Do you go after somebody like that, too, Ben?

EVENSTAD: Absolutely. Yes. You know, she, right, she`s not an actress, she`s not a rock star but she`s very much in the public eye. Those are the people we`re going to photograph.

BEHAR: But that bothers me a little bit you would photograph my child. You know?

GALELLA: You could cover up the child.

BEHAR: Oh what you are going to walk around with a burqa on the kid? Come on.

GALELLA: Or stay home. That`s -- you want privacy, stay home, that`s the thing to do.

BEHAR: I see so just be a shut-in and put a burqa on a kid?

EVENSTAD: Don`t be in the public eye.

BEAHR: Let me ask you something really.

GALELLA: Most of them love it. Most of the celebrities are looking for --

BEHAR: Here`s my question. How would you like it if somebody did that to you or your children? Both of you. Ben, you go first.

EVENSTAD: Well, I was following Brad Pitt one time and he pulled over and came over to the car and said, how would you like if I followed your father around? I have kids. You`re following me around. How would you like if I followed your father around? I said if my father was an internationally famous movie star I would understand he`s going to be followed by the press. That`s something I would not be bewildered as to why we`re there.

BEHAR: OK but he should have ask you about your kids, not your father.

EVENSTAD: I don`t have kids.

BEHAR: But the kids are vulnerable. You don`t have kids. Lucky you don`t have to worry about putting them with a sheet over their heads on the street. OK, thank you guys for joining me tonight. Very interesting catch Ron Galella in the documentary "SMASH HIS CAMERA" on HBO June seventh at 9:00 p.m. eastern. Good night everybody. Stay in the house.


JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, some say the split between Al and Tipper Gore may have to do with the loss of the 2000 election. Hear that, Scalia? Let it be on your head.

Then, desperate to stop the oil from leaking into the Gulf, the government turned to director James Cameron. Hey, what about Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby? Don`t they have experience with leaks?

And Charlie Sheen is facing 30 days in jail for assault, but while he`s there, he`ll spend his time having new head shots taken, one forward and one sideways.

That and more right now.

Al and Tipper Gore have split after 40 years of marriage. You know, I understand. People grow apart. They want different things. You want to go out and see "Sex and the City", he wants to stay home and install solar panels. It happens.

With me to discuss the split are Doug Hattaway, former Gore campaign spokesman and president of Hattaway Communications; Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist and associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital; and Lloyd Grove, editor-at-large for the DailyBeast.com.

Ok, let me start with you Lloyd. The Gores have a legendary partnership. I mean everybody is shocked at this to tell you the truth. Are you?

LLOYD GROVE, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, DAILYBEAST.COM: All their friends, everybody who knew them is totally shocked. If they can`t make it, what does it say about the institution of marriage?

BEHAR: Well, it may say that they have a shelf life.

GROVE: Well, probably so, but I would never have expected that -- they were such a great partnership, political partnership. She always had his back and every time I`ve met with them over the last 20 years or so, she was always very supportive and tried to humanize him because he`s a very sort of stiff, cerebral guy.

BEHAR: Oh, yes. That`s not just a caricature, you know, characterization of him that`s false. He really is stiff.

GROVE: Yes, he has a sense of humor. And he can be fun to be with. The last time I was with him about 4 months ago, he was showing me the app on his iPhone, the camera app and being very playful with it. But, you know, he is stiff and very cerebral and --

BEHAR: But why now? Gail, I mean why now?

GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Yes.

BEHAR: Forty years, you put in your time. Now you`re throwing - -

SALTZ: First of all, it is unusual. This isn`t a new empty nest. That`s a big divorce key. This is later. This is not typical, but I think the why nows often have to do for late-stage divorce with you reach a certain stage in life where you frankly, you really feel like you`ve only got so much time left.

You want every day to count. Time feels like it`s moving fast. You want to do what you want to do and frankly, you`re entitled to that. You`re raised your family. You`ve done your job, you`ve been responsible and you want to do things.

And so if you diverge in what you want, you may no longer have the patience to keep trying to make it work. Keep bending over for the other one, particularly if you haven`t nurtured it. If along the way, you keep growing and growing but moving in opposite directions in terms of what you want in goals for a later life then you know --

And by the way, I don`t think that means marriage has a shelf life, not at all. They are under an unusual pressure. They are essentially celebrities.

They are scrutinized. They have opportunities --

BEHAR: Yes, but they`ve weathered that for so many years. They weathered this for so many years. Why now? They`re not being scrutinized more now than they used to be.

SALTZ: Yes, well, they owe the public less. I mean -- we`re going to talk about this for three days and then we`re going to be done. This is not a presidential campaign anymore.

GROVE: I`m a little surprised why they made this announcement at all. They could have lived under the radar and no one would have been the wiser.

(CROSSTALK)

SALTZ: But this gives them an opportunity by the way, to go on and perhaps choose another partner in a very moral and decent way, not cheating on each other but deciding maybe there might be someone out there who wants to accompany them around the world and win Nobel Peace Prizes or --

BEHAR: So you don`t -- all right, I`m going to go to Doug for a minute. But you don`t believe there`s somebody else in the picture yet.

SALTZ: At this point. There`s not evidence for that.

BEHAR: No evidence for that.

GROVE: Everybody says not.

SALTZ: It would be a decent way to do it.

BEHAR: Everybody says not.

SALTZ: Right.

BEHAR: But what does everybody know? Everybody doesn`t know anything.

GROVE: You want there to be.

BEHAR: No, I don`t. But it`s my experience over my many years on this planet, that there usually is a third party when people split up. Otherwise, oh, you`re a little tired of each other or need your space, no big deal unless there`s somebody else.

SALTZ: That`s a fair statement.

DOUG HATTAWAY, FORMER GORE CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN: I`ve worked with a lot of politicians and their spouses and I`m surprised any of them stay together given the kinds of pressures people come under. Even when they`re not under that sort of presidential campaign glare like you mentioned, there`s so much public scrutiny, there`s competing priorities. There`s a lot going on when you`re in the public eye in any way, shape and form.

I`ve worked with politicians at the local and the state and presidential level and all the couples come under lots of different kinds of pressures. I always thought -- I think people, as Lloyd said, were surprised and sad about this because they saw a real spark between Al and Tipper. It`s something everybody could admire. It was real.

BEHAR: That`s true. But you know, Doug, you worked with him on the 2000 election campaign. A lot of people are saying, or some people, that the stress of that election really did him in and that it was a really tipping point for the marriage. What do you say to that?

HATTAWAY: I wouldn`t know how it affected the relationship. I know during the campaign, what I saw that they both worked their hearts out for that campaign. The interactions I had with the two of them on the campaign trial; Tipper certainly was putting her all into it.

I always thought he was a better campaigner when they were together because you could see that spark in there. She brought out sort of spontaneity and a sense of humor that`s not always apparent with Al Gore. So I`m sure it was a huge stress on both of them.

During the recount I was sort of in the thick of it in Florida and Tipper called me up to wish me well to say that she wished me the best when I was down there. God knows what they were going through, but she was clearly invested in and part of it.

BEHAR: I would think that that was a factor. That was upsetting to me. I almost went into a depression when I saw what the Supreme Court did, so I don`t blame him.

GROVE: It`s like a death. It sort of had the impact of a death of a parent on him. And on her as well.

BEHAR: And there was a --

SALTZ: It sometimes brings out the worst of each of you. When you have a terrible loss or terrible stress like that, that doesn`t bring out the best in you, it can bring out the worst. The question is, does it bring you closer and do you become more intimate because you could help each other through that. Or does it do the opposite where you`re like, boy, I do not like the way you`re reacting to this. You`re really dragging me down.

HATTAWAY: It was 10 years ago.

BEHAR: And then there was the --

(CROSSTALK).

BEHAR: In 2007, there was the drug arrest of one of his kids --

SALTZ: Right.

BEHAR: And that was a stressful thing and some people say that Tipper has had some depression periods in her life.

GROVE: She`s been very public about it.

BEHAR: She has, yes.

The other thing is -- I was reading that some people are saying - - I keep saying some people. Where`s the one I`m reading, anyway.

That since Tipper sublimated her own career, she wanted to be a photojournalist when they got married. A lot of women back in the day did that. And I wonder if that`s been eating at her all these years, that she`s been the good political wife all these years. You know, stand by your man and all that crap.

SALTZ: Well, you know, when you reach a certain age, right, and you start thinking what did I do with my life? And, you know, I haven`t got that much more of it left; that really can be a tough cross to bear for a lot of women. What I did for my life is I made him somebody.

(CROSSTALK)

GROVE: I think Tipper actually enjoyed aspects of politics.

HATTAWAY: That`s true.

GROVE: I mean, she was a very public person -- In fact, I think she probably enjoyed it more than he did. I think he grew up the son of a --

BEHAR: Do you think so, Doug?

HATTAWAY: I saw -- she -- every time I saw her on the campaign trail, she really seemed to be enjoying herself. She would take pictures of the campaign. She had the best view of anybody, sort of behind the scenes.

I always thought she was accomplished in her own right. She was an accomplished photographer. She was an advocate for mental health. And sort of -- I thought she used that platform that being a high profile spouse gave her. I don`t -- have never considered her as somebody in the shadows.

BEHAR: It`s not the same as Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, Senator. You don`t say Tipper Gore, photojournalist; you say Tipper Gore, wife of Al Gore. That is, I think, a bone of contention. I would have it because I`m like that.

Now, a Gore associate -- one of his associates said that separation means quote, "We need some time off from one another," but he`s flying all over the world. They`re not together that much. What time away from each other do they need Lloyd?

GROVE: Well, she wanted to enjoy life. She wanted to enjoy her grandchildren. She wanted to live in the mansion they just bought in Montecito.

He`s a very driven guy. He wants to go and evangelize against global warming. He wants --

BEHAR: Yes.

GROVE: Has all kinds of projects and businesses that he`s interested in.

BEHAR: As he should.

GROVE: And she didn`t want to follow him along, I don`t think.

BEHAR: I see.

SALTZ: If he wants to work and she wants to play, I mean, some variation of that --

BEHAR: Or actualize herself.

SALTZ: Very good -- wonderful.

GROVE: I love that word.

SALTZ: They`re on different paths and if they want companionship for their paths, that`s really the issue. If you don`t want to be in the limelight for being the next Tiger Woods or whatever, but you want a companion that`s going to be intense with you and travel the globe and do this --

BEHAR: You want a partner.

SALTZ: Yes, you want a partner.

BEHAR: See, that`s a good point. Because at this age, you say, why do this at this age. The one thing you do want in your 60s is to have your pal with you on your journey and maybe that`s the real issue.

SALTZ: The sad thing is that no pal is going to share a life narrative that the two of them have shared. That`s the thing about a long- term marriage. You share the kids, the grand kids, the knowing each other, the whole ups and downs. That is so valuable. That`s the reason a lot of people stay married. It is hard --

BEHAR: Well, that`s the sad part of the split. The unsad part is that they`ll find new ones and a little bit new and exciting or different.

SALTZ: That may be what they`re looking.

BEHAR: Right? Now, so you don`t think there are any -- that there`s anybody else?

GROVE: I mean everything I`ve heard is to the contrary. I think that it`s amicable. I don`t think they`re going to be fighting over money and who knows.

I mean, there`s a guy named Larry King who seems to be getting back together and this is not a final -- this is a separation.

BEHAR: That`s right, that`s true.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Doug what do you know about that?

HATTAWAY: Their statement said that this was a mutually supportive thing. And that`s the one piece I wasn`t surprised about, to hear that they were, that this was something that they were -- had talked about a lot together and were being mutually supportive about.

So I was shocked to hear the news, I`m not surprised to hear that this is something they`re going to work through together.

BEHAR: Is there anybody on this panel who is shocked that their marriage is splitting up and the Clintons are together?

GROVE: It`s an irony. I don`t know if I`m shocked. It seems like the Clintons made an accommodation about the kind of marriage they have long ago and that`s not the kind of marriage the Gores had. In fact, the Gores were very tough on Bill Clinton --

BEHAR: I know.

GROVE: -- in the 2000 camera campaign. So --

SALTZ: Yes.

BEHAR: A lot of people who got divorced were tough on the Clintons --

GROVE: I think you could have Bill Clinton as guest and ask him about this.

SALTZ: But doing what I do --

GROVE: It actually would be very interesting.

BEHAR: Yes, I`m sure he`d love to come on and talk about his peccadilloes.

GROVE: With you, yes.

BEHAR: Yes. Sure.

SALTZ: I would say you could never be shocked because the truth is, you never know what`s really going on inside people`s minds, inside people`s marriages, inside people`s bedrooms. So --

BEHAR: That`s true. Thanks, everybody, very interesting. We`ll be back in a minute. It`s true.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: You know there`s something other than Russia that Sarah Palin can see from her house. It`s Joe McGinniss, the author who moved in next door to Palin while -- while he writes a book about her. She`s calling foul claiming her privacy is being invaded. Now, a nasty war of words has erupted between the two.

With me now are Ana Marie Cox, Washington correspondent for GQ magazine; and Lizz Winstead, comedienne and co-creator of the "Daily Show".

Ok, Palin has made McGinniss a target of a national -- of national harassment because he moved in next door to her. Ok, he`s renting a house. You know the story. Most people I think know it at this point. She`s tweeted and Facebooked about him. A conservative radio talk show host gave out his e-mail address which he had to shut down and after he moved in, she posted a Facebook, a picture of him on Facebook in the house.

Now, is she now invading his privacy -- Lizz?

LIZZ WINSTEAD, COMEDIAN: Here`s the thing. If -- if she does this in her personal life --

BEHAR: Yes.

WINSTEAD: -- you know, just the pre-emptive crazy, can you imagine if she was holding a -- high public office. It`s like it would be horrible. This is how she reacts -- she`s just reactive and bizarre.

BEHAR: Yes, she overreacts.

WINSTEAD: Yes and I think she is being a little bit weird. I mean it`s -- at first, I was like, it`s kind of weird he moved in next door --

BEHAR: Yes.

WINSTEAD: -- but then my second thought, was, he made it very public he was doing this. So -- so -- because he knew she was going to react this way. I mean A, he`ll get press for it, but B, why not move in next door to her? It`s an investigative journalists` dream to have the subject that you are -- in the house next to you open.

How awesome is that?

BEHAR: Ana Marie, do you find it creepy at all that he`s there?

ANA MARIE COX, GQ MAGAZINE: Yes, I mean I think, as a feminist, you know as a woman, it`s the male gay is a little unsettling, but as a journalist, I find it really upsetting the way that she`s reacting to him.

And I have to agree with Lizz, I think the over -- the over reaction and the escalation that she`s done, can you imagine if she had at her disposal, you know a private police force or the national police force?

I mean, if she was actually holding office and had an investigative team that she have working for her, if she had access to people`s records, if she could do whatever she wanted, imagine what kind of havoc she could she wreak in this guy`s life.

But of course it makes me think, remember Trooper Gate, that all seems -- this all seems really familiar now and even more unsettling.

WINSTEAD: Well and it also she feels like she deserves this power and that`s the part that freaks me out. That she really feels like any amount of power that she is given, whether she`s governor or just a talking bot, it feels like she just a second she just a moment of power, she just feels like she can do whatever she wants to do.

COX: And not that she can do whatever she wants to do but use it against her enemies.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

COX: She is someone who definitely like, feels like she has enemies.

WINSTEAD: Right.

COX: And that they are personal enemies. Like she can`t take this to the level of abstraction.

BEHAR: Paranoid.

COX: She can`t think of this as like a journalist covering a subject, right?

BEHAR: Right.

COX: It is Joe McGinniss attacking her, her personally. And now and she brought her kids into this, which I have to say I don`t forgive anything you know I don`t --

BEHAR: Well, she implies in her Facebook thing --

COX: Right.

BEHAR: -- that he`s going to be staring at Piper through the window.

COX: Right.

BEHAR: Which automatically makes him into some kind of pervert which is not his intention all.

Ok, the fight escalated this morning when McGinniss went on NBC`s "Today Show". Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE MCGINNISSS, AUTHOR/SARAH PALIN`S NEIGHBOR: It`s probably a lesson for the American people of the power Palin has to incite hatred and her willingness and readiness to do it. She has pushed a button and unleashed the hounds of hell and now that they are up there slobbering (ph) and barking and growling.

And that`s the same kind of tactic. And I`m not calling her a Nazi, but that`s the same kind of tactic the Nazi troopers used in Germany in the `30s and I don`t think there`s any place for it in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Ok, now she says in response, "When I say all right, leave my kids alone, it means simply, that let my kids have a fun summer without having a journalist 15 feet from their play area. How that equates me with the Nazis is quite beyond me."

Ok, she`s not -- he didn`t really equate her with the Nazis. He`s saying the tactic is very Nazi like.

WINSTEAD: Well, I just think any time you know --

BEHAR: Which is -- which is what? Which is unleashing the wrath of the Palinites out there on this guy.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

BEHAR: That`s where the Nazi tactic comes in because when she says they`re attacking or being a threat to my children, all of these little Palinites go berserk.

WINSTEAD: I know but just Nazi thing kind of like, he -- he has to (INAUDIBLE) the Nazi thing.

BEHAR: Over the edge.

WINSTEAD: Over the edge and you know what, I just find it boring.

Here`s the thing I think that`s the biggest problem with Palin. Is that why didn`t Bravo find her two weeks before McCain did. I mean, we could just have had the real housewife?

BEHAR: I know, we have to blame him.

WINSTEAD: -- of Alaska and have the gun because she is exactly like that crazy woman on the "Housewives of New Jersey".

BEHAR: Yes, the other thing is that isn`t she the one who put her kids in the spotlight in the first place?

WINSTEAD: Yes.

BEHAR: I mean, at the convention, when they were passing that kid out more than a joint at Grateful Dead concert.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

BEHAR: Remember that?

WINSTEAD: And drag them on (INAUDIBLE).

BEHAR: I mean, she started it as far as I can tell.

WINSTEAD: She already wrote a book about her own dumb life any way and as far as I can tell when Joe McGinniss writes about Sarah Palin, he doesn`t go into her personal life.

he`s writing about whether or not she has a modicum of skill --

BEHAR: Yes.

WINSTEAD: -- to run anything.

BEHAR: Right.

Now do you think, Ana Marie -- do you think --

COX: She`s certainly good at running her on branding.

WINSTEAD: Yes.

COX: I mean, I think, that -- that`s what she has a skill at. I mean, I don`t think she has -- she could be the CEO of anything other than you know, Palinville, the Palin company. And she`s branded herself really expertly, like even this, first her outcry over McGinniss, puts her in this weird, non-threatening female position.

I mean we sort of (INAUDIBLE) good about her that she`s a strong woman. But everything she does in the public eye makes me think she`s actually very retrograde.

BEHAR: So isn`t this -- isn`t this -- the fence is up. Shouldn`t that be the end of the conversation? The fence is up.

WINSTEAD: Well, the fence is up, yes. But you know what? I just feel too, it`s not brave to attack through Facebook and Twitter. You`re a grown woman with a public platform. I mean, it`s really weird.

BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, ladies, very much. And you can catch the fabulous Lizz Winstead at the Flynn Center for the Performing Arts, in Burlington, Vermont on June 19th.

We`ll be back in a minute with Alan Alda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: As oil pours into the Gulf, Washington is getting offers of help from Hollywood. First Kevin Costner offered assistance, now director James Cameron is trying to fix the mess. Apparently BP knows nothing. I like to think out of the box, but this is a little scary.

With me now is actor, author, director Alan Alda. I know you can`t solve this, Alan but can James Cameron solve it?

ALAN ALDA, ACTOR: Well, he`s got $2 billion he can put into it. That might help.

BEHAR: Really.

ALDA: Yes.

BEHAR: BP has $2 billion --

ALDA: They`ve got a lot more.

BEHAR: They have even more.

What about the fact he has a private fleet of deep driver craft?

ALDA: I have no idea. I`m not up on this. I don`t know. Maybe he can help. That would be great.

BEHAR: Stephen Hawking is being honored.

ALDA: Stephen Hawking is being honored tonight at the gala -- the kickoff of the World Science Festival in New York. And it`s really -- it`s very exciting. He`s a very exciting man. As a scientist, as a courageous person, he`s kind of inspiring, I think, to a lot of people.

BEHAR: Right, well he doesn`t speak, right? He has to speak through a computer.

ALDA: He has the computer talk. Yes.

BEHAR: So how will he do his acceptance speech?

ALDA: I don`t even know if he will. He may have programmed something into it. It takes him a while to put an answer or statement into the computer, so he may -- if he says anything, he may have it all in there already.

BEHAR: Yes, so who else is going to be at the science fair?

ALDA: Yo-yo Ma and --

BEHAR: Yo-yo Ma, the cellist.

ALDA: The cellist. You know what`s wonderful about the idea of a science festival is that it brings together great science -- great scientists and artists, so that through art, you can get a view of science. You can get a doorway into science that you wouldn`t have had otherwise. It`s easier to go through the doorway of art sometimes than higher mathematics

BEHAR: Well, that`s what you do. Because I mean I`ve spoken to you many times and you`re very, very interested in science.

ALDA: I am, but I don`t know math and I don`t know chemistry.

BEHAR: You know math.

ALDA: No, I don`t. I`m just interested in learning more but I don`t really know anything. You know what I`m good at? Asking dumb questions.

BEHAR: Like?

ALDA: Not like you.

BEHAR: I ask dumb questions.

ALDA: No, no. Your questions are way too smart.

BEHAR: My question for you is why are you so interested in science? Just generally because you`re interested?

ALDA: I always have been. All my life. When I was a boy, I used to invent things. I invented a lazy Susan for a refrigerator when I was 10. And even -- there was a refrigerator company that started manufacturing them, quite apart from me, they didn`t take my idea or anything but then they stopped. I think because ketchup bottles were flying around kitchens across America. You know, you turn that lazy Susan.

BEHAR: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

ALDA: In other words, it`s going to wind up like a roulette wheel.

BEHAR: Exactly.

ALDA: That invention didn`t really pan out so well. So I became an actor and decided to get famous.

BEHAR: You`re an actor, you`re a writer, you`re a screen writer, you`re a director. You`re my Renaissance man, you are.

ALDA: Thanks.

BEHAR: Thanks for doing this. And so, thank you Alan. Wait a second, June 2nd to the 6th, the World Science Festival.

ALDA: You know what if people -- there are 40 events in four days. It`s going to be hard to pick what people want to go too.

BEHAR: Well, they should look into it.

ALDA: They should go to worldsciencefestival.com.

BEHAR: Ok. We`ll banner that. I hope that`s on the thing there.

ALDA: All right that`s good. Thank you.

BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be back in a minute. Thanks Alan.

ALDA: Thank you.

BEHAR: Ok.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: According to "People," magazine Charlie Sheen will spend one month in jail for assaulting his wife. Please at least give him two and half months just for the symmetry of it all. Here to discuss this and some other interesting stories are senior editor of "People" magazine David Caplan, comedian Judy Gold and humorist and author "It`s Not That I`m Bitter" Gina Barreca. Let`s start with Charlie Sheen. OK David, "People" magazine has the story. What`s going on? How much time is he going to get?

DAVID CAPLAN, SENIOR EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well a source tells "People" that he`s going to plead guilty to a misdemeanor on June seventh in Colorado and on that, he will serve 30 days in prison. However, the source adds that he could be let out after 15 days for good behavior.

BEHAR: First of all why did he choose a plea deal?

CAPLAN: This really worked out beneficial to him and his lawyers, he wanted it to be done quickly. He`s going to be shooting "TWO AND HALF MEN" in August. And you know they sort of agreed to this deal, basically. He just wants it done, he doesn`t want this drawn out, he doesn`t want to plead like not guilty and have all the dirty laundry.

JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: Who cares what he wants, OK? He`s awful. He doesn`t want this, he doesn`t want that. I don`t understand why he gets to decide.

BEHAR: Because he`s a celebrity.

CAPLAN: And that gets into the question of, is he getting special treatment.

BEHAR: Yes.

CAPLAN: So I think your reactions -

GINA BARRECA, HUMORIST: Yes he is getting special treatment.

CAPLAN: There is something there.

BARRECA: I mean, of course, he`s getting special treatment. Anytime first of all, somebody with, you know, who`s basically part of the Hollywood dynasty, he`s the equivalent of the Kennedy`s right? And because everybody still thinks his father is president. So everybody`s thinking now the president`s son is going to jail. He`s going to jail in Aspen. So basically they`ll make him watch --

BEHAR: Who thinks that his father`s is the president? Snooki and the situation?

(LAUGHTER)

GOLD: -- Kennedy`s -

BARRECA: And who do you think is looking at celebrities who go do jail? This is who`s looking. Snooki is very upset. She wants to visit him. She`s going to write to him in prison. There`s that list of women. He`s going to get a lot of dates. Women like to know where men are at night.

BEHAR: Well you know a lot of men become very attractive while in prison like the Menendez brothers.

GOLD: Oh yes they`re hot, especially Eric without the toupee. He is pretty hot, yes.

BEHAR: Now, what would a non-celebrity get if he got 30 days?

CAPLAN: I mean it could be so much more because there are other misdemeanors. And he easily could have been in jail longer. But you know I should add though, in all seriousness though, this was something involving Brook Mueller, his wife. So in terms -

BEHAR: She didn`t press charges. CAPLAN: Yes that - no she`s part of this, really, so they honestly consult with her, what does she want. We`re saying really who`s doing this, it`s more than Charlie and the government trying to come to a deal.

GOLD: I see.

CAPLAN: She`s totally involved and none of them want it to be blown up.

BEHAR: Yes, what do you make of that?

GOLD: They want to parent the child.

CAPLAN: They are very warm and fuzzy.

GOLD: They`ve done such a great job thus far. Gays can`t adopt, but these two can have kids.

CAPLAN: Exactly.

BARRECA: But isn`t it also the idea that somehow because they`re combined, they`re making this stick for everybody. And if she puts him away, she loses her part of the stick. I mean he`s her straight man so to speak. Or he`s her prop.

BEHAR: Yes but there`s a little -- it`s called domestic abuse. He put a knife to the woman`s throat.

BARRECA: Absolutely.

BEHAR: At the very least, it`s intimidation even if he didn`t cut her.

CAPLAN: You know and also in terms of the public perception both of them have sort of tried to do some redeeming. And he went to rehab for undisclosed reason, she went to rehab. And it was known for substance abuse. So they`ve already started the reputation has already taken a bit of a head. And there`s -- in that Hollywood way, trying to sort of you know make some sort of redemption. I know - Jessica --

GOLD: What does that mean - undisclosed reason that he went to rehab.

CAPLAN: He doesn`t want to say. And I agree, that`s what makes it even more suspect. And there was so much --

BEHAR: Well why would you go to rehab except if you`re a substance abuser or sex addict? Those are the two reasons right?

CAPLAN: He`s had anger issues, obviously, big surprise -

GOLD: I have anger and I don`t put a knife to anyone`s throat.

BEHAR: Not yet.

GOLD: My own.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Let`s move on to Al and Tipper Gore. How shocked were you that they`re getting a divorce?

GOLD: I could not believe it. And first of all, all right 40 years and I always thought you know they were just the perfect couple. And then, you know, first thing that comes to my mind, one is having an affair. There`s no way they just grew apart --

BEHAR: Listen, I speculated that, too. But this moment in time, there`s no evidence that either one is cheating.

GOLD: There is no evidence -- I think everyone thinks that. And I always looked at them, watched them. You know they had all these things online where they showed when they got married up until now. And they seemed like the perfect couple.

BEHAR: I know.

BARRECA: I`m sure, you know, if there`s somebody messing around here, that it might be some nymphet from Greenpeace -

GOLD: No.

BARRECA: She`s 12. If that turns out to be true, I am turning on every air conditioner, every light, the toaster oven - all my carbon footprint all over everything in heels.

BEHAR: Just to screw Al Gore.

CAPLAN: -- Tipper.

GOLD: I`m thinking it`s Tipper with a woman.

CAPLAN: Tipper.

BEHAR: You think so?

GOLD: That`s what I think.

BEHAR: Tipper as a lesbian?

GOLD: I don`t know, it would be good.

BEHAR: A lot of women in their 50s and 60s, suddenly, they`re lesbianing it up. I don`t get that --

GOLD: Am I a verb now? I have been lesbianing it up for years -

BEHAR: I know you have.

GOLD: And I haven`t even reached 50 yet.

BEHAR: I do and watch what happens when that happens -

GOLD: I know -

BEHAR: I have you here now, let me ask you a question.

GOLD: Yes.

BEHAR: What is about that? That you know like Meredith Baxter Birney, she was married with a bunch of kids, then suddenly decides she`s a lesbian.

GOLD: Because I think that 30 years ago, when they were in their 20`s or 40 years ago when they were in their 20`s, it was so unaccepted and they really wanted to fit in and wanted to be normal, quote unquote. I couldn`t do it. I couldn`t do it.

BARRECA: Also get fed up at 50. I mean there are women that are dying because --

GOLD: You don`t become a lesbian because you get fed up.

BARRECA: With men, yes, you do.

GOLD: No way.

BARRECA: I have friends, not you personally, who said, forget it.

GOLD: With a woman.

BARRECA: I`m going with a woman.

GOLD: OK.

BEHAR: I don`t buy it either. I don`t buy that.

BARRECA: I do because -

GOLD: All of a sudden, you decide --

BARRECA: Because you have to perform.

BEHAR: You feel annoyed with your husband, so you decide to sleep with a woman.

GOLD: Yes no, it doesn`t happen, sorry.

BEHAR: It would be interesting. Have you ever tried it, do you realize what you have to do?

GOLD: Joy! Why are you acting like it`s so awful?

BEHAR: I`m not saying it`s so awful, just something you have to -

CAPLAN: There`s the learning curve.

BEHAR: I`m just saying do you understand the sexual nature of it?

BARRECA: Yes, I`ve seen the diagrams.

BEHAR: Yes.

BARRECA: But I`m just saying I also friends.

GOLD: But - where`s the diagram?

BARRECA: Not diagram, there`s a pop-up book.

GOLD: Oh really, OK.

BARRECA: It`s very instructing.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLD: Oh really, I just followed my instincts.

BEHAR: David do you have anything to say on this topic?

CAPLAN: I`m like stumped but I do not think that, yes, anyone`s going to choose being a lesbian. Because that`s the next Tipper cover.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: You don`t turn into a lesbian. You are or you`re not.

GOLD: Right, I am so telling my mother to watch tonight.

BEHAR: All right here`s another good story. Michelle "Bombshell" McGee did an interview with Canadian TV station CTV. She says her Nazi costume is not racist, just Anti-Semitic. Well thank you Jesus. Now Mel Gibson doesn`t have to take her off Christmas list. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t believe wearing a Nazi costume indicated racism?

MICHELLE MCGEE, JESSE JAMES` ALLEGED MISTRESS: No, not racism, Anti- Semitism, yes. If that would be the intention of putting the custom on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anti-Semitism is prejudice against Jews which is actually racism.

MCGEE: Well that`s your view on that, I don`t see it that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: She doesn`t see it that way. She sees it her way.

GOLD: Actually, Hitler didn`t see it that way.

BEHAR: Exactly. Exactly, you know I have made the point before that Edith Stein was nun.

GOLD: Right.

BEHAR: Who was a Jewish woman -

GOLD: Born Jewish, yes.

BEHAR: And then she became a catholic. And she went to Auschwitz -- she didn`t become a lesbian. She became catholic.

GOLD: She became catholic and a saint.

BEHAR: See, you can change.

GOLD: Didn`t she become a saint?

BEHAR: She became a saint as well. She`s up for sainthood.

BARRECA: Yes I think it`s too soon to be become a saint. But I also think, look, if this girl, the bombshell girl, she doesn`t understand Anti- Semitism because it has too many syllables. This is somebody reading the phrase Anti-Semitism off a teleprompter, she doesn`t know what it meant, that`s why she thinks it is a matter of opinion.

GOLD: Well I think if she, if the oil painting, whatever her name is, Jesse James` girlfriend --

BEHAR: Bombshell McGee. The oil painting - she`s more like hieroglyphic.

GOLD: If she wants to be in show business, Anti- Semitism is the way to go.

BEHAR: You know just ask Mel Gibson.

GOLD: Exactly.

BEHAR: He`s doing very well.

GOLD: Yes he`s doing excellent.

BEHAR: Here`s another look at the infamous Nazi photo from TMZ which McGee said was the photograph`s idea. David does she have a problem saying no? She couldn`t say to the photographer, don`t take this picture?

CAPLAN: She`s definitely, a yes girl, and that`s what I`m saying about it, she`s taken these photos. And it is racist. And even if there`s a decision of trying to - whether or not, she`s correct and you know her definitions of Anti-Semitism racism is like fringe. It shouldn`t be looking at such a person like that.

BEHAR: Yes.

CAPLAN: She`s just doing this for attention. I mean she was in Toronto promoting a website for people to have affairs with other people.

BEHAR: You know the need for attention -- I think those people should go to rehab.

GOLD: Yes that is true, that is an addiction.

BEHAR: That is an addiction.

GOLD: You need to have every focus on.

BEHAR: She also has a last little note here before we go, that Sandra Bullock should be thankful. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGEE: Twisted type of way, I guess Sandra should be thankful that I did come forward and let her know her husband did cheat on her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: I think Sandra should send her a gift basket to thank her. Edible fruit.

GOLD: Bagels.

BEHAR: Bagels and -

GOLD: And cream cheese, frugalah -

BEHAR: All right we got to go. Thank you so much, everybody.

Up next, in the age of TMZ and Iphones, have the paparazzi gone from nuisance to public menace? We`ll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: "Twilight" star Kristen Stewart compared being targeted by intrusive paparazzi to being raped. Is her analogy extreme? Sure but is it without merit? Are the new breed of photographers, what some call the stockarazzi going too far to get the money shot? With me to talk about it are Ron Galella photographer and paparazzi pioneer and Ben Evenstad Celebrity photographer and owner of National Photo Group. OK let me start with you, Ron. First of all, shouldn`t you be 50 feet away from me?

RON GALELLA, PHOTOGRAPHER: No, not you.

BEHAR: No, I`m not that big a star. You really are going to the enchiladas. So what do you make of Kirsten Stewart`s statement that she feels like she`s being raped by the paparazzis.

GALELLA: Well, it`s an exaggeration, but I think that there`s just too many photographers and it`s like gang banging and it may sensitive stars may feel that way.

BEHAR: Well gang banging is a form of rape, isn`t it?

GALELLA: Yes.

BEHAR: So maybe she has a point.

GALELLA: Maybe.

BEHAR: It is funny you should use that phrase. But Ben do stars deserve any privacy at all? I mean after all they are private citizens, as well as, public figures and they don`t seem to get a break. They`re being hounded constantly. Ben?

BEN EVENSTAD, CELEBRITY PHOTOGRAPHER: When they`re out in public, they`re subject to having their photo taken, but Ron brings up a good point. I`ve been in this business 11 years. When I started, there was 25 guys in L.A. and now, there`s over 200. So when you have someone like Kristen Stewart, who is you know very famous internationally because of these "Twilight" movies, she`s going to be followed by 20, 30 guys every day. It`s definitely intense. I think her choice of words was poor. I`m sure women who have been raped would beg to differ that a movie star having their photo taken akin to what happen to them. But, yes, the spotlight can be intense.

BEHAR: You know, years ago, the studio system used to protect the stars. And they`d set up a photo shoot and you guys would take a picture that looked spontaneous, but wasn`t.

EVENSTAD: Yes.

BEHAR: And then you changed that, Ron. I saw the movie about you last night. And you did change all of that because you were one of the people who hid in the bushes and jumps out and scares people in a certain way and gets that shot of them looking surprised.

GALELLA: Yes, that`s what I do. We see stars on TV and the movie screens and we want to see them in real life. The human side of them. And that`s what I like to capture. Them in parties, being themselves. Off screen.

BEHAR: Well you hounded for years, you hounded Jacqueline Kennedy, you became Jackie Onassis and you hounded her.

GALELLA: Well my best year of photographing Jacky was 1970. And I photographed her 20 times, that`s not really, 20 times in one year. That`s my best year I`ve gotten her. And look at these featherweights, what I call Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears. They`re bombarded every day and night and they love it.

BEHAR: You think they love it?

GALELLA: Oh yes that`s why they do it. They dress sexy and they prance in front of the cameras.

BEHAR: Well Jennifer Aniston has -- is trying to advocate laws to curb their access to her.

GALELLA: Well they photographed -- half nude in the backyard. That`s wrong, that`s invasion of privacy.

BEHAR: Absolutely and then these pictures, Ben, do you take pictures of girls on beaches and show all their cellulite and everything and all their fat hanging out?

GALELLA: I don`t do that, I think that`s negative. I like to show beauty, I`m after beauty, real emotions on their face and gestures. That`s what I look for. I don`t look for this -

BEHAR: I see.

GALELLA: Stuff that they look -- because they look for the negative because they`re so desperate to fill the spaces in magazines and whatever.

BEHAR: Ben, now, you got the controversial last shot of Michael Jackson on the gurney, right? Is there any boundary, any moral or physical boundary that you would not cross?

EVENSTAD: Of course. There`s many moral and physical boundaries I would not cross. Primarily, we don`t cross any legal boundaries. We don`t do anything illegal in getting these photos. I`ve never been arrested, never been sued, but at the same time, Michael Jackson was the most famous person on the planet and his death was incredibly a news worthy event and we were there and were you know, not happy he did, but we`re glad we got the photo. It`s a very powerful photo.

BEHAR: Yes, how do you feel about that, Ron?

GALELLA: There is a market for that, but I don`t like to cover funerals. For instance, when Grace Kelly died, the National Enquirer signed me to photograph the funeral. I said, no, I`m not going to go. I went in the dark room and print great shots of her when she was living, beautiful shots, one of my favorites stars.

BEHAR: Yes she was very nice to you, too.

GALELLA: Yes, she was.

BEHAR: She was not angry with you.

GALELLA: Never, never.

BEHAR: How much did a photo of Jackson fetch for you, Ben? A lot of money I bet?

EVENSTAD: Yes, I don`t want to say exactly, but has made more money than any paparazzi photo in history.

BEHAR: Yes you say sometimes that they`re looking for it. And Ben is saying they are public figures. What about Princess Diana? A lot of people say that the paparazzi basically killed that girl.

GALELLA: That`s not true.

BEHAR: So how do you respond to that?

GALELLA: It was the driver that was drunk and drugged that killed Princess Diana.

BEHAR: But he was being followed at a huge speed by all of these paparazzi.

GALELLA: Yes but he lost control. If he hadn`t been drunk or drugged, he would have had control of the vehicle and she would be living.

BEHAR: Yes right, go ahead, Ben, wait, we`re going to come back with more. Hang on a second. We`ll continue this discussion after the break. Hang on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with paparazzi Ron Galella and Ben Evenstad. OK Ben, what were you going to say about the Princess Di question?

EVENSTAD: Well in addition to what Ron said, which was absolutely true, the driver was drunk -

BEHAR: Right.

EVENSTAD: And on drugs, all the photographers knew where she was going. She was going to Al-Fayed`s father`s house. They were following, not chasing. And it was the excessive speed of the driver who was drunk that caused that accident. Had nothing to do with the paparazzi.

BEHAR: Right. OK. Now some stories clearly don`t want you around, Ron, or you, Ben. Like Sean Penn is one of them. And in your book - in the movie they talk about Marlon Brando knocking a couple teeth out. They just don`t want you around. Do you feel intimidated by any of these stars when they say, look, get the "F" away from me. I mean they`re really strict.

GALELLA: Yes, I honor their wishes. But you see, my approach is I don`t ask. I don`t ask permission. I photograph them fast with my camera with a wide-angle lens, pre-focused, and I get the candid shots. That`s what I`m looking for. The surprise on their faces or whatever. And after I get the picture, if they say, protest, I stop, and I leave. But I`m one ahead on them because I shot a couple.

BEHAR: Ben, do you stop or do you just keep at it? When they say don`t --

EVENSTAD: Our approach is a little different than Ron`s. What primarily we try to do is stay very far away with very long telephoto lenses and not be seen. We have specially-equipped vehicles where we can conceal ourselves. The candid photos we`re looking for are the ones where the star does not know we`re there.

GALELLA: That`s the best way. The long lens. A lot of them don`t do that. A lot of them use the wide angle -- get close.

BEHAR: In your face.

GALELLA: They all see them and the stars know that they`re there and they split and don`t get the good pictures they`re looking for.

BEHAR: You`re kind of stalking people, aren`t you?

GALELLA: I don`t like the word stalking.

BEHAR: But you are saying that you`re far away with a long-range --

GALELLA: Yes, long lens.

BEHAR: -- missile is what it`s like. And that`s kind of stalking somebody. They don`t know you`re watching them. What else would you call that?

GALELLA: But they`re in public areas, they`re public figures, it`s fair game.

BEHAR: They have no right to any privacy once they`re out of their house, is that it?

GALELLA: That`s right. The ground is public.

EVENSTAD: Not if you`re in the public eye.

BEHAR: I know. What about people like the octomom? She`s not a celebrity and has a bunch of kids to protect. Do you go after somebody like that, too, Ben?

EVENSTAD: Absolutely. Yes. You know, she, right, she`s not an actress, she`s not a rock star but she`s very much in the public eye. Those are the people we`re going to photograph.

BEHAR: But that bothers me a little bit you would photograph my child. You know?

GALELLA: You could cover up the child.

BEHAR: Oh what you are going to walk around with a burqa on the kid? Come on.

GALELLA: Or stay home. That`s -- you want privacy, stay home, that`s the thing to do.

BEHAR: I see so just be a shut-in and put a burqa on a kid?

EVENSTAD: Don`t be in the public eye.

BEAHR: Let me ask you something really.

GALELLA: Most of them love it. Most of the celebrities are looking for --

BEHAR: Here`s my question. How would you like it if somebody did that to you or your children? Both of you. Ben, you go first.

EVENSTAD: Well, I was following Brad Pitt one time and he pulled over and came over to the car and said, how would you like if I followed your father around? I have kids. You`re following me around. How would you like if I followed your father around? I said if my father was an internationally famous movie star I would understand he`s going to be followed by the press. That`s something I would not be bewildered as to why we`re there.

BEHAR: OK but he should have ask you about your kids, not your father.

EVENSTAD: I don`t have kids.

BEHAR: But the kids are vulnerable. You don`t have kids. Lucky you don`t have to worry about putting them with a sheet over their heads on the street. OK, thank you guys for joining me tonight. Very interesting catch Ron Galella in the documentary "SMASH HIS CAMERA" on HBO June seventh at 9:00 p.m. eastern. Good night everybody. Stay in the house.

END