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Van Der Sloot Captured; Gary Coleman`s Final Days
Aired June 03, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, long considered the suspect in the unsolved Natalee Holloway case Joran Van Der Sloot has been captured in Chile. Could he have committed both crimes exactly five years apart?
Then, so far the police are not looking into the accident that led to Gary Coleman`s death. But will his ex-wife`s strange 911 call change that?
The 1980s was sex, drugs and rock `n roll. Belinda Carlisle of the Go-gos partook of all three. She tells all in her book, "Lips Unsealed".
That and more, right now.
Joran Van Der Sloot, the man arrested twice but never charged in connection with Natalee Holloway`s disappearance was arrested this afternoon in Chile. He`s suspected in the murder of a 21-year-old who was found dead in Van Der Sloot`s hotel room in Peru.
Joining me are Casey Jordan, criminologist and attorney; Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on TruTV; and Rosemarie Arnold, Van Der Sloot`s former attorney.
Ryan, what`s the latest in the story?
RYAN SMITH, HOST OF "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, the latest is Joy that they found Joran Van Der Sloot, as you said, they found him in Chile, so took him in. He`s now at the police station at the PDI. You see him right there, that`s a perp walk going into the PDI headquarters which is the Chilean investigative police.
Now the next step is to possibly extradite him to Peru. So Peruvian authorities have now put in their paperwork and extradition could happen fairly soon. He can either fight extradition or go along with it willingly so that could delay his extradition. But if he doesn`t fight it he could be in Peru very, very soon.
BEHAR: I see. I have Paul Reynolds, Natalee Holloway`s uncle on the phone with us. Paul, what`s your reaction to the news?
PAUL REYNOLDES, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S UNCLE (via telephone): Well, the first thing I`d like to say is that our hearts go out to Stephany`s family. We know what they`re going through. It`s a terrible thing.
We`re very disappointed that Joran was allowed to do this to another young girl and we certainly hope that he`s going to be held accountable.
BEHAR: Well, allegedly at this point. We don`t know. The evidence is not completely in yet. But I`m assuming by your answer that you think that he is guilty of both. Yes?
REYNOLDS: Well, we`re very confident that he`s guilty with regard to Natalee. And the information that we have is very -- regarding Stephany is certainly alarming.
BEHAR: Have you spoken to Natalee`s parents? What are they saying about this?
REYNOLDS: I have spoken to my sister, Beth. And of course she is very shocked and disappointed as well. This is not something that we want to happen to anyone. It`s a terrible thing that our families had to go through and Stephany`s family will suffer the same way. And it`s very disappointing that despite all of the efforts Joran was allowed to remain free and --
BEHAR: Yes.
REYNOLDS: This is just very disappointing to us.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you, Paul, very much. Regards to Natalee`s family for us.
Casey, he`s right. It`s like the guy has been on the loose for five years and nobody was watching him? No one was keeping an eye on him?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, under Aruban law -- and we constantly attack Aruban law but we have to understand they have laws in their jurisdiction. They`re not like American laws. I think that they did everything they could under the circumstances with the evidence or lack of evidence they had. You have no body and we`ve never found Natalee.
That was a huge thing for them to try to overcome. They did their best to detain him, they did as much as they could. And if you don`t have a case, you can`t hold someone indefinitely.
He went back to the Netherlands. Then he was playing poker. We saw him when the journalist did an expose and then he ended up in South America in these poker tournaments.
BEHAR: He`s quite the jet-setter, this guy, isn`t Rosemarie? Where does he get the money to go gallivanting around the globe?
ROSEMARIE ARNOLD, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: I can`t tell you where he gets the money from. But you know, you have to remember here -- and first of all, I`m not defending Joran nor am I defending his actions but you have to remember here that we`re hearing a lot of information that`s not always consistent.
We`re hearing things that might be fact, might be rumor but there are a lot of holes in the story right now. You hear that he had a hotel room in his name and tragically a woman was found slain in it. Of course all our condolences go to the Flores family.
BEHAR: They were seen together the night before.
ARNOLD: You hear that they were seen together the night before. But then you hear that her father reported her missing on Sunday. How come they didn`t find her body until Wednesday if you have people who saw them together in the hotel? There`s a --
BEHAR: What do you think is the reason?
ARNOLD: Well, you would think that a maid would clean the hotel room.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, not if he has a "Do Not Disturb" sign on the door. They might not.
ARNOLD: But if you have a video showing her go in the hotel with him and you have a Do Not Disturb sign on the door for four days. To me that`s a gap.
BEHAR: Right.
ARNOLD: It`s a whole new story. And we`re going to find out very soon what really happened because you`re going to have DNA evidence like Casey the criminologist said there`s a body. So we`re going to have DNA evidence and soon we`re going to get the answers that we`re looking for.
BEHAR: Ryan, you want to say something?
SMITH: Yes, I did. You know, I think the lawyer makes a really good point but I think at the same the difference between this case and what you saw in the Natalee Holloway case -- and I`m not at all saying that anything should be put on him at this point -- they`re still trying to figure out what happened -- is you`ve got a crime scene at that hotel room. You`ve got a body allegedly. You`ve got possible evidence. The authorities are already saying there is serious evidence here linking Mr. Van Der Sloot to this.
So we don`t know yet. We don`t know everything yet. But this is certainly a bad situation. And as one of my guests pointed out earlier today on our show, he`s changed his hair color recently.
I don`t want to make little points here but at the same that`s not something that a lot of people do. I mean why was he leaving the hotel? Why was he leaving the area, changing his hair, changing his clothing? That doesn`t always sound good.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right. I know. This happened in Peru and now he`s 2,000 miles away from Lima, Peru in Chile.
ARNOLD: Right, but you don`t go blonde to hide in Chile. At least I would think not.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Remember Scott Peterson trying to get across the border to Mexico just before they arrested him and he bleached his hair hoping they wouldn`t match --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Let`s talk about the woman -- the victim for a second. Do we know if the woman knew Van Der Sloot? Did she know him?
ARNOLD: We hear reports. And we don`t know again what we`re hearing is true and what we`re hearing is false. But we hear that she didn`t know him. That she met him at the casino.
BEHAR: She did not know him.
Ok. Now, the woman, her name is Flores. She is reportedly an out lesbian, which is an interesting detail. So does that suggest that her motivation to hang out with him was not sexual? What do you think Casey?
JORDAN: You want to know what it suggests to me? If Van Der Sloot thinks he`s God`s gift to women and he`s used to conquering any woman that he comes on to --
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
JORDAN: -- and you have one who says no to him -- maybe another one happened to be Natalee Holloway then you might be able to spark something in him full of rage, power, control that would make him actually kill someone.
BEHAR: She`s shaking her head. Why?
ARNOLD: You don`t find out somebody is a lesbian after they go to the hotel room. If you`re in the casino and you`re trying to pick up a girl, no thanks, I`m a lesbian. That doesn`t make sense.
SMITH: Yes, but --
BEHAR: Go ahead, Ryan.
SMITH: And you know what, Joy? Here`s the other thing here. Remember this is happening around five years to the day of what happened to Natalee Holloway.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s weird.
SMITH: That`s weird but also hears the other thing. You were arrested twice in relation to that. It was a worldwide incident. You were almost put in jail. That was a very tough situation for him.
Why do the same things? Why are you meeting a girl at a hotel, bringing her back to your room at 5:00 and I always make this point. Why are you rushing out of the country? You didn`t do anything wrong. Stay a while. Have a good time.
ARNOLD: We don`t know that he was rushing out.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: But why leaving? Why not turn himself immediately? Why not immediately turn himself in?
ARNOLD: Because his plan might have been to leave on that day. We don`t know. He had already been there for 13 or 14 days and we don`t know that he left.
We understand that allegedly she was killed on Sunday. He didn`t leave until Monday. So if you kill somebody, you run away right away. You don`t wait a day. We don`t know. I`m not defending him or his actions. I`m simply saying we don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No. You`re just asking questions. I understand that. Her father says that she was drugged. Is there any evidence of that, Rosemarie?
ARNOLD: I only know what I`ve heard that there were allegedly drugs in her car. I haven`t heard anything about her having drugs in her system. Again we`ll find that out but again we don`t know what`s true and we don`t know what`s media hype.
JORDAN: I think that -- I read that they found rohypnol (ph) or the date rape drug in the room -- in the hotel room which kind of goes back to the question why would she go to the room with him. Maybe she didn`t know how she ended up there.
BEHAR: What do you know about that Ryan? Go ahead.
SMITH: And Joy -- you know what? I heard the same thing; that the drugs were in the car. Doesn`t mean they were in her system. But I think your lawyers on the panel are very right.
What`s going to happen -- this is the great thing in this case about having a body. And I hate to say that because all due respect to the family, my sympathy goes out to them. But in this case you have physical evidence.
That`s what was missing in the Natalee Holloway case. You didn`t have a body. She disappeared. But you have physical evidence here. If there is a date rape drug in her system we`re going to know that from the autopsy.
If he was there or around her or did anything to her, any kind of contact whatsoever, we`re going to be able to tell by DNA tests or at least looking at the body. So -- we`re going to see --
BEHAR: That she was stabbed also. Does that say anything to you?
SMITH: Multiple times. Absolutely it does. You know what it says to me -- multiple times she was stabbed? Blood on the walls. That shows me there was a violent altercation that went on in that room. If he was connected, his fingerprints were there, his DNA evidence was there, he has got a big problem on his hands.
BEHAR: Rosemarie, do you think that we`re suspicious of this guy because of the Natalee -- do you think that`s fair because of the Natalee case?
ARNOLD: I think that people want to find him guilty because I think people want resolution to the Natalee Holloway case. If you say if you can find him guilty of this, you can kind of -- in a person who wants his mind go back and say ok, he did it.
(CROSSTALK)
ARNOLD: And there`s spookily -- there`s spookily the same situation situations, however really, they don`t have anything to do with each other.
BEHAR: But exactly what is it five years to the day?
ARNOLD: Yes. It`s -- it`s crazy.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": Yes.
BEHAR: And here`s a dead girl in Aruba and he`s there. Here`s a dead girl in Peru and he`s there.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: Hello, it sounds suspicious to me.
ARNOLD: I hear you.
SMITH: Yes, that`s the problem.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST & ATTORNEY: In criminal psychology anniversaries are huge triggers --
BEHAR: Yes.
JORDAN: For causing psychic breaks and fugues.
BEHAR: And you know, in the Aruba thing he admitted to being involved in Natalee`s death on tape. How come that didn`t -- didn`t convict him? I never understood that about this case?
ARNOLD: Well, because first of all the story that he told when he allegedly admitted it didn`t make sense to begin with. Apparently he was paid to say that. He was giving information that if you went back in time you could tell that the information he gave on tape was simply false. There were so many holes in that second story.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: Yes, but, Joy, to me that`s his biggest problem. And you know we want to say people are innocent until proven guilty. I firmly believe in that but we`ve got a young woman Stephany who died here, we`ve got Natalee Holloway in the past.
His biggest problem right now is the way he has acted in the past with the media on the Natalee Holloway case flaunting himself out there --
JORDAN: Right.
SMITH: -- making his confessions. What does that do? When something like this happens that makes you look straight at him and say, hey, what are you doing this time? You can`t --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, this case has ended. And believe me many, many shows will be following this case in the days to come.
So thank you very much, Rosemarie and Ryan and Casey. Sit tight, all of you, because we`ve got the latest on Gary Coleman`s death next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re learning more about the final moments of actor Gary Coleman, the 911 call made after his fatal fall has been released. It was made by his 24-year-old ex-wife Shannon Price. Listen to some excerpts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNON PRICE, GARY COLEMAN`S EX-WIFE: He just got home. I heard this big bang. I went downstairs. Blood everywhere, I don`t know if he`s ok. I`m not down there right now because I have seizures. If I get stressed out I`m going to seize.
Send someone quick because I don`t know if he`s like going to be alive because there`s a lot of blood on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there any way you can go down there at all?
PRICE: I`ll try, I don`t know, I mean. I just can`t be here with the blood, I`m sorry, I can`t do it, I can`t. I just don`t want him to die. I`m freaking out like really bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Back with me to discuss this case are Casey Jordan, criminologist; Ryan Smith from TRUTV; and joining us is Kevin Frazier, a weekend anchor for "ET".
Ok, let`s see -- is this odd behavior in your mind when you hear this, Casey?
JORDAN: I have --
BEHAR: Does it sound odd?
JORDAN: -- I have to be honest. In a moment of crisis there is no such thing as normal behavior.
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: Making people behave in different ways. Is -- is you know, does she seem to not be able to handle blood? I mean, if anything, it just is a reflection or perhaps of her maturity and her inability to handle a crisis.
I`ve listened to the whole 911 phone call. The dispatcher is telling her, can you put -- if you can`t put pressure on his head can you get him to put pressure on his head?
BEHAR: And she says no.
JORDAN: She was trying to say no. She is like no.
BEHAR: I can`t.
JORDAN: And she`s -- so it`s strange in my book --
BEHAR: Yes.
JORDAN: -- but I`m not 24 years old. He does have a history of seizures though. And that`s what I find odd, that he had one in February on the TV set --
BEHAR: Yes.
JORDAN: -- on a set of a TV show.
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: So you would think if she knew he suffered -- knew he suffered from seizures she`d be a little bit better prepared for the aftermath.
BEHAR: Well what does that say to you? That she wasn`t?
JORDAN: Honestly I just think it`s a reflection of a young woman.
BEHAR: You do?
JORDAN: I don`t think it`s a reflection --
BEHAR: Not that young, I was married two years at 24.
JORDAN: Ok but I -- immaturity is all I can say. I don`t think it`s an indicator of foul play or anything odd. I think she just doesn`t have the fortitude to handle an emergency situation.
BEHAR: Ok, Kevin. You interviewed Todd Bridges --
KEVIN FRAZIER, ET: Sure.
BEHAR: -- his costar in his --his sitcom.
FRAZIER: Yes.
BEHAR: Let`s see what he said about his parents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BRIDGES, "DIFF`RENT STROKES" STAR: We have paperwork and we will bring it out soon that will show what his wishes were. And what he wanted. We do. After bringing this paperwork out, everybody is going to shut up.
Were those wishes excluding his parents?
Yes. Yes, since day one. The people weren`t defending him when he was alive and they`re sure not going to defend him when he`s passed away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRAZIER: He had a document and he and a friend have been holding on to this document. And if Gary`s parents in any way try to step up and get involved or they try to take control of his estate that he will release these documents and that he will be very forthright in what he says about Gary`s parents and how they treated him and whatever is in these documents.
So he`s -- I mean, he`s pretty adamant that he is like I am going to step in here and make sure that they get nothing.
BEHAR: That`s what Gary, Gary want -- that was his wishes, I guess. He`s really angry with his parents.
JORDAN: -- with his parents, exactly.
BEHAR: Very angry.
SMITH: Right.
JORDAN: Yes.
BEHAR: But cops say there was nothing really suspicious Casey here.
JORDAN: Right.
BEHAR: So there`s no investigation. I mean it`s just -- are you convinced that there`s nothing suspicious about it?
JORDAN: I am.
ARNOLD: Sure.
JORDAN: I`ve seen people have seizures. They can absolutely fall down and crack their heads. Skulls bleed profusely. He died of a brain hemorrhage, they have agreed to that.
I think that what`s interesting why we`re so interested is because he had an advanced health directive apparently --
BEHAR: Yes.
JORDAN: -- that he put together when he was married to his wife. They`re now divorced --
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: -- but he never went back and changed that --
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: -- which is why lawyers would tell you go revisit your wills after you get divorced.
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: So she did have the legal ability to make that decision to discontinue his life support. And I`m sure his parents are outraged at that. So you might see a lot of dust-up over this.
BEHAR: But Ryan --
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: -- should she have had that right to do that?
SMITH: Oh yes.
BEHAR: She wasn`t married to him anymore. It`s almost like it`s a little sneaky. Go ahead.
SMITH: Well, the thing is a lot of people let it slip. And we want to think that once something happens or they get a divorce that people will say oh, I`ve got to change all these documents but you know what, people -- I think I can even tell from this -- and again, I don`t know their relationship but it seems like even though they weren`t married they`re still co-habiting it seems.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: They are still together in certain ways. You might still think, hey, you know what, I trust this person. I want them to be responsible if something should happen to me.
BEHAR: I wonder why they stayed together --
FRAZIER: But wait a minute --
BEHAR: -- even though they were not married anymore. Go ahead, jump in. Just jump in.
FRAZIER: Joy, I think the thing that needs to be said here is I was with Todd when he listened to that 911 call. And he said I plead the fifth. I`m not going to say anything about that call but he immediately got on his phone and started texting and calling a friend.
The other thing is, is that Gary clearly was -- yes, he was in a coma but he was -- he was alive and speaking to people earlier that day --
BEHAR: Yes.
FRAZIER: -- but it seems weird that she pulled the plug so quickly --
SMITH: Yes.
FRAZIER: -- and didn`t give him time. And she also -- as the hospital personnel said and as they told us at "Entertainment Tonight" she represented herself as Gary`s wife.
SMITH: Yes and you know what --
FRAZIER: Now, she was no longer Gary`s wife.
BEHAR: Right.
SMITH: And you know what, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes, Ryan. Yes.
SMITH: Two things -- two things that are critical here. The first thing is that 911 call, what I heard a lot was the word I. And on our show on "In Session" we talk about this a lot. When someone says I, I, me, I don`t want to take care of this, it`s freaking me out, it shows that they`re caring more about themselves than they are about the victim.
The other thing is I get concerned because he`s sitting there, he`s got this concussion, he`s down but at the same time he`s lucid, he`s still conscious. And she`s not giving him help. I understand --
BEHAR: Yes. She wouldn`t even get him the towel.
SMITH: Exactly. You might hate blood but a man`s life is on the line. It`s your ex-husband.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok. Hold on, Kevin. Ok. Sit tight for a minute. We`re going to come back with more in just a minute on the same discussion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing Gary Coleman`s final days. Kevin, you were about to say something about the wife, ex-wife.
FRAZIER: Well, I think the thing is that when Gary had his problems on a show when he -- Dr. Drew grabbed him and cradled him in his arms and laid him on a couch. Gary had a bunch of health problems and he had had a secret open heart surgery that she clearly knew about. So she should have been used to all his health problems and health issues.
Now, I`m not trying to accuse anyone of anything, but it does raise the question of in that situation if Gary is down on the ground and he`s struggling -- and you`ve seen him through a lot of health problems -- why is it at this moment you can`t go and give him aid? You can`t get a towel and put pressure to the back of the head where he was bleeding from? Why all of a sudden can`t you help this man who is down on the ground?
He`s your ex-husband but look, we`ve all -- I have an ex. I don`t hate her that much that I won`t get on the ground and hold her.
BEHAR: We didn`t know that they were divorced. Why did they hide the divorce do you think? You seem to know him Kevin. Why --
FRAZIER: I think that Gary was a very, very private person. And one of the things that Todd pointed out is that the only way he could communicate with Gary was through Shannon. So he would text Shannon and then Gary would answer her back.
So she really was a buffer to the world for Gary and I think she remained that buffer for quite some time. I also think that Gary had a lot of health problems and so it wasn`t easy for him to get out and go and take care of himself.
If a man who had just had open heart surgery a few months ago, you can`t just walk out and hang out and, you know, even take care of yourself and feed yourself. So he did need help in a lot of ways..
And let`s also remember he was broke. He didn`t have any money. So he couldn`t hire nursing care.
BEHAR: And estranged from his parents. Let`s talk about the parents for a minute. What do the parents want Ryan?
SMITH: You know, I think they`re going to look to get some of his estate. I think that`s going to be the big picture.
BEHAR: What is the estate? Is there money? My impression is that there`s no money.
SMITH: I think there might be no money but, you know, one thing he could still be looking at -- I don`t know if this is possible. But I`m thinking if his show is airing anywhere he could be looking at royalties, things that keep coming from that. I don`t know if he owns property. Even if there`s a little bit you want that to pass to you.
BEHAR: How about insurance?
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Absolutely. He could have life insurance especially if he has a medical condition. But I think there`s going to be a fight. If he didn`t have a will and she was not married to him then it might be tough to pass to her. It might be more likely to pass to his parents but there will definitely be a fight.
JORDAN: I think it`s very unlikely he had an advanced health care directive and didn`t have a will. I`m sure he had both and I`m sure he never changed them after he and Shannon got divorced and they were friendly. A lot of exes stay friendly. And you`re right. He needed her.
The life insurance question is the million dollars question. If it turns out he had a life insurance policy and he never changed that after he got divorced and Shannon`s the beneficiary you might see things happen with the parents versus Shannon and of course that raises questions about her odd behavior during the 911 phone call?
Did she really want him to die because she knew she might be the beneficiary of a nice fat policy?
BEHAR: Right. Do you think there`s anything to that you guys?
FRAZIER: I don`t know. Joy, I think the question is being raised is why did they take him off of life support so quickly. And, also, you have to look at the situation. With Gary Coleman, one of the biggest child stars in the history of entertainment.
And so unfortunately with a lot of stars, they are worth more dead than alive because then it becomes, we`re fans showing outpouring of love and they buy things with his image on them. So you know what, that`s where the money could be. And that`s where Todd doesn`t want his family to get.
BEHAR: That`s an interesting point.
Ok. Thanks very much, everybody for joining me.
Up next, Ted and Gayle Haggard join me for an exclusive interview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Three and half years ago reverend Ted Haggard got caught up in a sex scandal and consequently was ostracized from his church but this Sunday he`s opening a brand new congregation in Colorado Springs. Joining me from Colorado, Ted Haggard founder of St. James Church and his wife Gayle author of "Why I Stayed." Welcome. Good to see you again.
TED HAGGARD, FOUNDER, ST. JAMES CHURCH: Thank you.
GAYLE HAGGARD, WIFE OF TED HAGGARD: Great, Joy. Thank you.
BEHAR: OK, Ted, let me start with you. Your last church was not understanding at all when you were involved in a sex scandal with a male escort. Now you`re bouncing back with a new church. How are you going to do that?
T. HAGGARD: Well, of course, one of the wonderful things about being an American is that it`s the people that decide who they look to for spiritual leadership and for moral influence and things like that. And so we`re going to find out this Sunday about who has decided that they`re willing to meet with me and Gayle and study the scriptures together and have a barbecue together and celebrate a new launch.
BEHAR: Gayle, do you think the faithful of Colorado Springs are ready to trust Ted again?
G. HAGGARD: Well, I think there are those who will. And we are waiting to see who wants to join with us. We`re really excited about this Sunday, to see who is going to show up.
BEHAR: So you don`t really know yet how many people you`re going to have? You don`t know that?
T. HAGGARD: Oh, not at all. Joy, we could have 20 people. We could have 200 people. Or we could have a thousand people. And if we have more than 20, I`m going to be happy, though. And I`m not too concerned about the number. What I`m concerned -- or what I`m interested in is that we have a group of people gathering together with us so that we can have a spiritual community again there in Colorado Springs. It will be wonderful.
BEHAR: Well you know, Ted --
G. HAGGARD: And we do know --
BEHAR: Go ahead, Gayle.
G. HAGGARD: we have been hearing from people steadily over the last two years that we`ve been home asking us to start again. So we do know there are people who are interested.
BEHAR: Well you know, Ted, let me ask you a rather insensitive question. You`re very open about having lied and deceived your wife and the congregation.
T. HAGGARD: Right.
BEHAR: I mean that has happened. How do you justify your moral authority to preach to these people?
T. HAGGARD: I don`t justify my moral authority. I don`t know for sure that I would go to own church. But I do know that --
BEHAR: You are not sure -- say that again. You`re not sure you would go to your own church?
T. HAGGARD: In the state I was in prior to my fall, I thought differently than I think now after all the embarrassment, the shame, the suffering, the baptism and love and compassion and understanding that I`ve been through. I`ve become a different man. And so now I realize that very often people become what they`ve always wanted to be through suffering. And I`ve become a better man. And I`m a changed man. I see people differently. And so when I see people going through a struggle now, I`m not judgmental, I`m not critical. I want to be helpful and encouraging. And so that`s the way I see it now.
BEHAR: Yes.
T. HAGGARD: So other people that are able to look at me that way will be responsive to me. If people look at me the way I might have looked at me ten years ago, they are not going to be so responsive.
BEHAR: OK. It`s fair. Will gays be welcome in the church?
T. HAGGARD: Absolutely. So will people that don`t pray enough. So will people that don`t love enough. So will people that are overweight. So will people that are underweight. So will people that are -- have low I.Q`s and high I.Q`s. Humanity needs love and needs God. And so we`re gathering together of sinners who are gratefully redeemed. No self righteous people will be there, I`m pretty sure.
BEHAR: See, I have to take issue when you say -- you put home September as a sin. It`s not a sin. Maybe that`s the problem with the rap. It`s not a sin.
T. HAGGARD: I hear you. Heterosexuals are welcome too. So are bisexuals. Everybody -- everybody is a failure in one area or another, regardless of whatever group we put them in.
BEHAR: OK. So you don`t consider homosexuality a failure anymore? Is that what I`m hearing?
T. HAGGARD: Here`s what I consider. I say here on the earth sexuality, no matter which grouping, sexuality is complex. It`s confusing. And people enter -- some people have healthy sexuality. Other people have unhealthy sexuality. They`re on their own journeys with God. They have got to work that out. And what we`re going to do at St. James Church is encourage them in their process to get that settled in their life.
BEHAR: OK. Let me ask you about marriage in general.
T. HAGGARD: OK.
BEHAR: You know the Gores just split after 40 years, which is quite shocking to people. You`ve been married for over 30 years. How is your marriage going?
T. HAGGARD: Oh, it`s fabulous. It`s better now than it`s ever been.
BEHAR: Gayle? Gayle?
G. HAGGARD: I would agree. And I think having gone through what we`ve gone through in our marriage has really caused us to grow closer to each other. It`s forced us to be more open and honest and understanding of each other. And I feel as though what`s going on with the Gore family -- I certainly don`t know the details, but I find it very sad.
BEHAR: Well, divorce is never a happy time except when you meet the next one. Then it`s all right.
(LAUGHTER)
T. HAGGARD: See, that`s why we`re here today, Joy. We are so sold on the second chance. We`re so sold on new beginnings. It`s true divorce is bad. But there is a tomorrow. Foreverybody.
BEHAR: Yes.
T. HAGGARD: That`s what I want to communicate.
BEAHR: Yes. OK. Now, after the sex scandal, you suggested to Gayle that she divorce you. Why did you do that?
T. HAGGARD: Right. I felt as though I had become so toxic and that people would hate me and that we would be so poor and in so much social trouble and financial trouble the rest of our lives that for she and the children to have any hope at all for a happy future, I need to be out of the picture. And so I told her that the best thing you can do for your financial future and your -- to have any open doors at all in the future would be for you to separate from me and go your own way. That`s why I asked her to divorce me.
BEHAR: Do you feel, go ahead --
G. HAGGARD: Yes. And I disagreed because I felt as though family really means something to me. And commitment really means something to me. And I placed high value on our family. And I knew my husband for many years before the scandal. And I walked through the scandal with him. And now I`m still with him. And I feel as though it`s all part of the package of working through our difficulties in life. There`s no perfect marriage, no perfect family. But we grow together. And we`re the better for it. And I`m really glad to be where we are today and I`m glad that my family is still together and loving each other and going through life together.
BEHAR: Well let me ask you another --
T. HAGGARD: And what I didn`t realize then was that if she would have left, I would have crashed and probably never resurrected. But now we`re resurrecting. We have people rallying around us. We`ve got friends again. We`re able to do things again. We`re earning financial strength again. Those things are starting to happen again in our lives. And that`s why I want to have St. James church, to communicate no matter how low you get, no matter how depressed you get, if you`ll just stay alive, and stay with each other, you`ll make it.
BEHAR: So I have to ask you one more rude question. You had homosexual tendencies in those days. Do you still have them? Cause I mean it`s a legitimate question to ask you even if you`re married to a woman. You could still have those feelings. Do you?
T. HAGGARD: It is. It is -- what happened to me. See, this is real sensitive with me because as I -- I was confused about that. So we`ve been through a lot of therapy about that. I`ve talked to a lot of good, high qualified people about that. What I was going through was a response to what happened to me in the second grade with one of my dad`s adult employees. So it was a response to trauma. Now, here`s why I hesitate even talking about it. Is because some people would say, then, oh, then people that are homosexuals, it is the result of trauma. That is not the case. I`m not saying that. Or other people would say --
BEHAR: So what are you saying?
T. HAGGARD: Oh, Ted`s displacing responsibility. I am not saying that. What I am saying is this is my story. I went through that experience. It showed up in me doing certain things when I was in my late 40s or 50 and then I went through treatment for trauma, not for sexual orientation. For trauma.
BEHAR: I see, so that was your --
T. HAGGARD: For trauma and I dealt with that.
BEHAR: I get you so you`re saying that you were acting out in response to the trauma rather than that you are a homosexual, right?
T. HAGGARD: Absolutely. And that`s what I`ve said all along. But because of the way my accuser spoke during the two years we were quiet, everybody assumes another thing. And so we`re trying to clarify that. Even -- we just put a new post up on tedhaggard.com, the healing overview, help explain that to people so they could get a clearer picture that I`m not commenting on homosexuality. I`m just trying to tell the truth about myself and let everybody go their own path.
BEHAR: And get your church together.
T. HAGGARD: Huh?
BEHAR: And you want to get this congregation together. So good luck to you both. I`m always happy to see both of you. Good luck to you.
HAGGARD: Thank you, it`s always good to see you, Joy.
BEHAR: OK, thank you, we`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Can you hear me, they talk about us. Telling lies well that`s a surprise. Can you see me, see right through them. They have to see that nothing can be revealed. Nothing is worth - in the jealous game people play. All is revealed --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, the Go-Go Belinda Carlisle went from rock star to hell and back and she describes it in her new memoir "Lips Unsealed." With me is Belinda Carlisle, welcome Belinda.
BELINDA CARLISLE, AUTHOR, "LIPS UNSEALED": Hi.
BEHAR: Now first of all, what`s your response when you see yourself in those clips?
CARLISLE: God, I was so young. We were so cute. It seems like yesterday.
BEHAR: It seems like yesterday, I know. I know that feeling. Now you grew up in southern California, and I was reading your book. So the biological father leaves at 5.
CARLISLE: Right.
BEHAR: And in moves a stepfather. So that -- how did that affect you as a child? Have you ever thought about that?
CARLISLE: Well I never really understood why my father left in the first place. Nothing was ever explained to me so I was sort of sitting and waiting for him to come home.
BEHAR: Well it sounds like your mother was having an affair with this Walt.
CARLISLE: She might have. I don`t know what was going on but probably they had a friendship. She was lonely. My father was never there. And possibly. Quite possibly.
BEHAR: Why was he never there? Was he working somewhere?
CARLISLE: He was a traveling salesman. He sold vacuum cleaners.
BEHAR: Oh the old traveling salesman story. But, no your mother remarried? She married this guy, Walt.
CARLISLE: She married our neighbor, the man across the street. And, yes, nothing was ever really explained. He`s amazing now. I mean, he`s sober. But it was pretty rough going for my childhood. He was an alcoholic, you know. He was abusive and it was -- my mother was trying to raise five kids. Turned into seven at some point but it was five.
BEAHR: Turned into seven.
CARLISLE: Well I`m the oldest of seven and after I left she had two more. So, yes, it was a pretty tumultuous childhood.
BEHAR: So he was abusive when he was drunk.
CARLISLE: Yes when was drinking yes.
BEHAR: What type of abuse? Beatings?
CARLISLE: Well it was, lots of -- the belt -
BEHAR: The belt.
CARLISLE: And a lot of emotional abuse too. But like I said, I mean, it`s another case of, you know, alcoholics obscuring the amazing person underneath. Now I can`t -- you wouldn`t even imagine the man being able to do anything like that.
BEHAR: Now he`s sober and he`s fine.
CARLISLE: He`s great. He`s remorseful of course.
BEHAR: He feels bad about what he did to you kids.
CARLISLE: Of course, of course, yes.
BEHAR: A lot of -- beatings with a belt.
CARLISLE: Well, it was kind of done back then.
BEHAR: It was done back then?
CARLISLE: It was done back then. I think -- I know. It was. There wasn`t a whole lot of taboo I think on hitting and spanking your kids. So but with a belt that`s pretty hard core.
BEHAR: Your mother, she did not get involved at all in the --
CARLISLE: Well I think she was afraid to rock the boat because she was trying to raise kids and my father was the breadwinner and you know she was sort of torn between trying to survive -- survive and you know I felt bad for her. She did the best she could.
BEHAR: I think I read in the book -- correct me if I`m wrong -- that she heard somebody on television say it was OK to hit kids.
CARLISLE: Yes it was.
BEHAR: See this is why I don`t like -- I hate it when people on television say it`s OK to spank or hit children because people like your mother feel, well, it`s OK.
CARLISLE: It`s OK, yes -
BEHAR: And that`s why I object to that. I just wanted to put that out there. So now then you developed a cocaine addiction and you had one for 30 years about.
CARLISLE: For 30 years about.
BEHAR: Where did you get the money for all that coke?
CARLISLE: Well, I mean, I -- the first time I did cocaine, I couldn`t afford it but I thought one day when I can -- when I do have money I`m going to buy lots of it because I like this.
BEHAR: You really liked it, you really liked it?
CARLISLE: Yes. But you know, it`s -- the fun wore off pretty quickly. I was pretty much an instant addict when I look back. I spent all my money on it. And you know, for years I was able to afford it, afford a good habit. And I spent pretty much every dime -
BEHAR: On drugs.
CARLISLE: On coke and the behavior that went along with it, which was pretty crazy racehorses and you know spur of the moment first class tickets to Japan, things like that. Which you know, pretty wasteful.
BEHAR: All that acting out.
CARLISLE: Yes.
BEHAR: Which really probably had some connection to your childhood.
CARLISLE: Oh, definitely. It`s -- you know, it`s -- I think when I -- when I dug deep after I became sober and sort of -- to figure out and ask questions why I was like that, I didn`t think I -- all those father issues and all those abuse issues really affected me. I thought been there, done that, it`s okay, I forgive but it really does affect a kid and as an adult.
BEHAR: Yes it certainly does. In fact there was something in the book about you were being interviewed on the red carpet by Maurice Gibb, one of the Bee Gees, and he told you there`s stuff on your nose.
CARLISLE: Well, I had a heavy habit for 30 years. There`s five years that I stopped, but you know, what can I say? It`s just --
BEHAR: OK sit right there. We`re going to come back with more on Belinda Carlisle`s story after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
They got the feeling, got the feel, yes. They got the feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with talented Belinda Carlisle. And we`re talking about her new memoir, "Lips Unsealed." Let`s talk about your husband because he fascinated me. First of all he is the son of James Mason, James Mason.
CARLISLE: Right, the actor.
BEHAR: His name is Morgan Mason.
CARLISLE: Right.
BEHAR: You`ve been married to him how long?
CARLISLE: We`ve been married 24 years. We`ve been together 26 1/2.
BEHAR: Right and you have children with him?
CARLISLE: I have an 18-year-old son.
BEHAR: Right. And during the marriage, I was reading you basically would sneak the coke even during the marriage and he never even caught on.
CARLISLE: Well because we live in South of France and I purposely never had a connection there, so I could go off and travel. In the nature of my work, I travel a lot, I would have all my connections in other cities. I was afraid he would find out my secret when I was home. I wasn`t that good at hiding it. He busted quite a few times.
BEHAR: He busted you a few times.
CARLISLE: And I`d always promised I would stop like an addict does. And I meant every promise I made, I just couldn`t keep them.
BEHAR: You had issues with weight also.
CARLISLE: Right.
BEHAR: So what`s that addiction about?
CARLISLE: Well I mean I was always normal, I wouldn`t even say chubby. And I -- I mean I had you know, I had baby fat. When I -- I never had a problem with my weight. When the Go-Go became famous, the media had a problem with my weight. So everything was always, my name was mentioned with -- weight was synonymous with my name. She`s cute chubby, pretty plump, svelte voluminous I mean it was just --
BEHAR: And not the others.
CARLISLE: And that does things to your head after a while. You know and that was one of the reasons why I liked drugs is because I didn`t eat when I was doing cocaine.
BEHAR: Uh huh, do you think you have an addictive personality of any kind?
CARLISLE: I think I have a tendency to be a little bit OCD -
BEHAR: Yes.
CARLISLE: But it`s something I have to watch. I think, yes, when I didn`t take care of it the first time around, I stopped doing drugs for about five years. I mean I had my version of the program. I sponsored myself. And I was allowed to do hallucinogen and pills, it was pot. I just couldn`t -
BEHAR: It`s good to be clean.
CARLISLE: My program. But I never took care of -- I never bothered to do the work. So that`s why it also went after food, shopping, whatever.
BEAHR: Right, some people find religion.
CARLISLE: They do.
BEHAR: That never happened you to?
CARLISLE: No, not until the end, really, no.
BEHAR: There`s one more question before we go. The Go-Go split up in 1985. Some of your girls blamed your husband for that, like the Yoko Ono of it? What is that about?
CARLISLE: Well there was a problem in Yoko Ono but you know I think there was a lot of change and dynamics when there was some of the girls in the band got sober and I had met Morgan at that time. So it was good to pin everything on him.
BEHAR: I see. Kind of like the Beatles a little bit.
CARLISLE: Kind of, I guess.
BEHAR: But does he screech like Yoko?
CARLISLE: I never know. No, he`s too busy on the golf course.
BEHAR: All right, Belinda thank you for joining me tonight. Her memoir is called "Lips Unsealed," and it`s out now. Good night, everybody.
END
