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Joy Behar Page
Weekly Roundup; Cho and Tell
Aired June 04, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, somehow the Clintons outlast the Gores as Al and Tipper split up after 40 years of marriage. With no evidence of infidelity, why did this longtime love fade?
Then from Duchess of York to duchess of drink, Sarah Ferguson tells Oprah drinking led to her on camera shakedown and that a mystery friend would have received the money.
Plus, Margaret Cho stops by to discuss some pop culture dish and the new season of her hit show, "Drop Dead Diva".
All that and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Al Gore has won an Oscar, a Grammy and a Nobel Peace prize, but this week he lost a wife. He and Tipper announced that after 40 years of marriage they were separating.
Joining me now to talk about this and other scintillating stories are comedian and a judge on NBC`s "Last Comic Standing", Andy Kindler; Rachel Sklar, editor-at-large for Mediaite.com; and director and actress, the lovely Amanda Bearse.
Ok. Amanda, did this news shock you?
AMANDA BEARSE, DIRECTOR AND ACTRESS: It did actually. I think just - - most of us thought that theirs was a pretty solid marriage especially compared to the Clintons.
RACHEL SKLAR, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, MEDIAITE.COM: It took about 20 seconds to get to the Clintons, amazing, amazing.
BEARSE: That`s 7 seconds.
BEHAR: Why do people keep bringing the Clintons --
SKLAR: People love talking about the Clinton marriage so much. Like this story isn`t really about the Gores, it`s just about how the Gores didn`t beat the Clintons.
BEHAR: It`s true.
ANDY KINDLER, COMEDIAN: Right. I had that in the pool in Vegas -- which marriage would last longer.
BEHAR: Really?
KINDLER: I went with -- I did the trifecta with John Edwards in third place. I don`t know what I`m talking about but I do want to say I`m hoping they broke up over his choosing of Joe Lieberman for vice president because that --
BEHAR: Right. He deserves --
KINDLER: I am enraged about that still and that would --
BEHAR: Does that enrage you more than the fact that McCain chose Sarah Palin?
KINDLER: No, that is the worst move in the history of the universe.
BEARSE: Or how about that Joe Lieberman chose McCain?
BEHAR: That was annoying but the other way around was dangerous. Anyway, do you think that there was another woman, Rachel or man in this picture?
SKLAR: I mean I certainly couldn`t even begin to speculate. There`s obviously rumors to that effect.
BEHAR: There are? I haven`t heard them. Tell me.
SKLAR: Well, no, because I saw -- now I want to make sure I cite this correctly. I am pretty sure it was on the Huffington Post sourced -- I mean like sourced with like source, colon or people not involved with the situation.
BEHAR: Just spit it out, Rachel.
KINDLER: She`s brain dead. Are you being sued?
BEARSE: I want to make sure --
SKLAR: That`s what I read that something -- it might have been him just stepping out.
SKLAR: That`s what`s --
BEHAR: Shocking.
SKLAR: Circulating, however they`re carefully phrased statements that they`ve just grown apart. I have no knowledge.
BEHAR: Rumors floated on this show yesterday that maybe she was playing --
SKLAR: Maybe that`s where I got it.
BEHAR: That she might on your team.
KINDLER: The other team.
BEARSE: Oh, really? Well, we`d love to have her. She`s lovely. I like Tipper especially after she got over the music thing.
KINDLER: Now Al Gore will be able to listen to explicit lyrics -- rock music -- without worrying about someone looking over his shoulder.
BEHAR: Ok, let`s talk about the Duchess of York. Sarah Ferguson went on Oprah this week to explain how she got into her latest ridiculous mess. She blamed it all on the booze and here`s what she told Oprah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH FERGUSON, DUCHESS OF YORK: I haven`t faced the devil in the face. Because I was in the gutter at that moment. So I know -- I know exactly -- I`m very aware of the fact that I`ve been drinking, you know, that I was not in my right place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Andy, do you buy this excuse?
KINDLER: I always use I`m drunk for anything that doesn`t go well.
BEHAR: Yes. Do you?
KINDLER: If it doesn`t well, this segment I will be drunk and on drugs.
BEHAR: I see.
KINDLER: But you know, I feel sorry for her. I really do. Everyone is piling on --
BEHAR: Why? Why do you feel sorry for her?
KINDLER: Because it`s embarrassing.
SKLAR: It`s terrible. It`s cringy. You just wanted something to go right for Fergie at some time, any time.
KINDLER: And I could be entrapped so easily.
BEHAR: You feel sorry for her too.
SKLAR: It`s not like I`m condoning what she did but you can`t watch this train wreck and not feel bad for her. It`s not like she left that marriage with all these marketable skill.
BEHAR: She marries an heir to the throne of England and she acts out all over the place and spends all the money she had over the years and you feel sorry for her for extorting somebody?
SKLAR: I`m an easy touch. What can I say?
BEARSE: I heard she didn`t get that much money.
BEHAR: Well, she only got 20,000 a year in alimony and whatever. So she didn`t get that much money, yes but she did have money along the way. She had deals with Weight Watchers and (INAUDIBLE) and she spent it all. She spends her money. I don`t feel sorry for her, I`m sorry.
BEARSE: I didn`t like the setup. I just think it`s sad. It`s not that she did that was not such a good thing.
KINDLER: This was the only thing, doing that.
When she did that with the hand, that was the one move when the guy -- you don`t do that.
BEHAR: Yes, that was tacky.
KINDLER: You don`t do one of these.
BEHAR: Would you have taken the money, Andy?
KINDLER: Absolutely. I`m ready to take it now.
BEARSE: But she is drunk.
BEHAR: She told Oprah that Andrew forgives her. They`re such a happy couple. Why don`t they stay married they`re so in love with each other.
SKLAR: They grew apart over the years.
BEHAR: I mean really. She also admitted to Oprah why she got into money trouble. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FERGUSON: I think I`ve been living -- trying to be the Duchess of York. I think I`ve been trying to be not what I really -- so difficult to explain -- beyond my means, yes. Trying to keep up -- keep it up, keep me up, keep Sarah going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, she`s on TV now. She`s getting a charge out of this, I think. She`s got this children`s book she`s pushing. She`s on Oprah. She`s loving it.
KINDLER: Oh, I don`t think so.
SKLAR: She doesn`t look like she`s loving it.
BEARSE: She did not look very happy to me.
BEHAR: Oh, grow up, Amanda.
SKLAR: Like the story of Fergie and the story of Diana like Fergie could never be like Di.
BEHAR: Exactly.
SKLAR: She was always compared. All right, all right.
We love the British royalty. What can I say?
KINDLER: Such empathy. It`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: I don`t have empathy for royalty. Ok, they get on my nerves.
Ok, Rush Limbaugh on the other hand, I have great empathy for.
BEARSE: Speaking of getting on your nerves. He`s getting married this weekend to his longtime girlfriend Katherine Rogers. Congratulations Rush.
Just be careful on that wedding night because Oxycontin and Viagra don`t mix.
Ok. She`s 33.
SKLAR: Long time. What? This is his fourth marriage?
BEHAR: I know. We called it that. She`s 33. He`s 59. What do you think she sees in him besides his wallet?
SKLAR: I could not venture to guess. There`s some good in everyone, how about that?
BEHAR: Oh, boy. What am I in church with these three?
KINDLER: Well, I didn`t know that Eva Braun had a sister. That`s what -- that was surprising to me. What a catch he is. What a catch.
SKLAR: What else could she see in him I don`t understand it? He obviously is magnetic. Has many viewers and accolades. So there`s that. But clearly people who are not fans of Rush Limbaugh are obviously wondering.
KINDLER: Which is everybody.
BEHAR: yes. Not everybody. He has millions of -- which is scary.
BEARSE: I`m not a fan but wish him well which is probably not what he would do for me because I`m getting married this year.
BEHAR: I heard that. Who are you marrying?
BEARSE: A lovely woman who`s in the green room right now and we`re very excited except we had to travel a few states to actually do it legally. So rush gets to do in his backyard and with family and friends and we would love to do that too but they`re all out on the west coast and Vermont and Connecticut and Massachusetts --
BEHAR: Well, congratulations.
BEARSE: Yes, thank God for Vermont.
BEHAR: So, it`s going to be a big wedding.
BEARSE: No, it`s just the two of us and a justice of the peace.
BEHAR: Why not go all out.
BEARSE: This is actually -- we want to do this because we can do it legally. This is about the legality of it and we want to hear those words. And we do hope one day that the state of Washington or California, which is where most of the family is, will turn things around and we`ll be able to do it there too and we`ll have some kind of big party -- some kind of big party.
BEHAR: Andy, are you married?
KINDLER: I am married. Happily married. I don`t know why I`m a little defensive. I`m happily married. Why, who said I wasn`t?
BEHAR: All I said was are you married.
KINDLER: Yes, I am married Joy.
BEHAR: How many years are you married?
KINDLER: I`ve been married for 8 years, I just had my wedding anniversary -- May 26th. Why am I looking at a different camera for that?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
KINDLER: But we dated for awhile before that.
BEHAR: So you`re married, you`re getting married and you are --
SKLAR: I am single.
BEHAR: Single. On the prowl.
SKLAR: So if this thing doesn`t work out with Rush`s fourth wife, I might have a chance.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Bombshell McGee, remember her? The ex- mistress of Jesse James dropped a bombshell of her own on Canadian TV. She said she`s not racist just anti-Semitic. To prove it she`s having her tattoo of Benjamin Netanyahu removed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t believe wearing a Nazi costume indicates racism?
MICHELLE MCGEE, ALLEGED MISTRESS OF JESSE JAMES: No, not racism. Anti-Semitism, if that was the intention of putting the costume on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anti-Semitism is prejudice against Jews which is actually racism.
MCGEE: Oh, well, that`s your view of that. I don`t see it that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She doesn`t think that it`s racist to be anti-Semitic. She doesn`t understand. Explain it to her.
KINDLER: Well, I`m not necessarily proud of it. I toured the country for awhile as Andy Semitic. It was a whole -- I was trying to celebrate my Jewish roots.
BEHAR: That was good. That was a good trend.
KINDLER: Drew the wrong crowds.
I personally -- as a Jewish man I`m relieved because it`s just the Jews. I like that she narrowed it down so she`s cool with everybody else.
BEHAR: Do you think she`s just stupid or what?
SKLAR: Yes, I think, she`s just stupid. She dated Jesse James.
BEHAR: That makes Sandra Bullock stupid too.
SKLAR: That`s a good point. Ok, now I have to take it back.
BEHAR: Ok, Rachel, go there.
SKLAR: You know, fair enough. You got me Joy, what can I say?
BEHAR: I did get you.
Look at the picture of her. Here`s the picture as a -- with her Nazi thing.
Ok. Which was -- this is from TMZ which was McGee said was the photographer`s idea. This girl can`t say no or nein to anything.
KINDLER: That is -- I just want to say, that is really hot.
BEHAR: Oh that -- is that hot? As a Jew does it offend you to see somebody dressed up with Nazi --
KINDLER: No, well, here`s the thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
KINDLER: You know when Jesse James got in trouble and he did the Hitler salute the part --
BEHAR: Yes.
KINDLER: -- I`m Jewish, if you`re at a party and there`s Hitler stuff around and the hat, you`re all going to play around with it, ok.
BEHAR: We did?
KINDLER: You can`t help -- if it`s a mustache, a brown shirt, it`s hilarious.
BEHAR: Ok.
KINDLER: The only person who scared me --
SKLAR: I don`t know what kind of parties are you going to.
KINDLER: Well, the only person who scared me who dressed up like Hitler was Hitler. That was the only person that scared me and even he was --
SKLAR: To bring it back to Royalty, Prince Harry once --
BEHAR: That`s right. Even at a bar the Prince, all the royalty --
Was I right or was I wrong about this?
SKLAR: I`m deferring to everything you say right now.
BEHAR: Ok, good. Thank you, guys. Catch Andy Kindler at "Comics" in New York, Friday and Saturday.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Is she Asian? Is she American? Is she gay? Is she straight? Who knows, who cares, what I do know is that Margaret Cho is very funny and she is here. Season two of the hit show "Drop Dead Diva" premieres June 6th on Lifetime. Welcome, Margaret.
MARGARET CHO, ACTRESS: Thank you.
BEHAR: Well, you know so the premise of the show is that a model dies and comes back as a plus-sized lawyer.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: So she -- got when she`s a model of course she`s a skinny bitch --
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and now she`s not such a skinny bitch.
CHO: Right, right.
BEHAR: Yes, I see.
CHO: But it`s really about how so many women in our society are invisible and here`s somebody who is not used to being invisible who`s suddenly thrust into that position of being invisible. So it`s about learning how to find the beauty within yourself which I think is really important.
BEHAR: The inner beauty.
CHO: The inner beauty and the outer beauty. I think, Brooke Elliott is quite a beautiful girl. So -- she`s a perfect person to have in that role.
BEHAR: You know, I always ask the people if you had to come back as something would you come back as exquisitely beautiful, extremely brilliant or extraordinarily funny.
CHO: Well.
BEHAR: If you had to choose one.
CHO: Well, being all three, I think the thing -- the best thing is to be extremely beautiful. I mean really --
BEHAR: Is it?
CHO: -- yes, it seems like, well, when I was really young --
BEHAR: Yes.
CHO: -- when I was a kid I was really very beautiful and I could get away with anything. I just had to pretend not to speak English. Because people thought -- I was oh, I don`t know.
BEHAR: Why would you do that? You just say --
CHO: Just I don`t --
BEHAR: Yes.
CHO: You know and people thought it was so cute and adorable.
BEHAR: Yes.
CHO: I got away with murder.
BEHAR: I know but beauty doesn`t last.
CHO: No, it doesn`t.
BEHAR: So I think you have to -- you have to pick something that will keep you going all your life.
CHO: It`s true.
BEHAR: Right and smart. Maybe smart --
CHO: Smart is good. Smart and funny I think are the same though, because I don`t think you can be funny without being smart. I think.
BEHAR: Yes, all right. Ok.
CHO: I think. They are both -- I don`t -- I don`t think you could have one without the other.
BEHAR: Yes, but about the idea of overweight and all these overweight women and everything, and Marlon Brando, when he was on his last legs he was really fat. Remember him?
CHO: Yes, yes, of course.
BEHAR: And he -- he talked about how this about how the media will destroy you if you`re fat.
CHO: Right.
BEHAR: They`re very, very mean to heavy people. I remember the story of back in the `90s when you were doing -- not that you were so fat but you were not skinny, skinny --
CHO: No.
BEHAR: -- and you were doing a sitcom and they told you to lose weight.
CHO: Right.
BEHAR: You were playing yourself.
CHO: Playing the part of myself which is ridiculous. I mean, if you think about how ludicrous the show has developed for me and around me and then I`m supposed to lose weight to be me.
BEHAR: What did they do, though, they just came to you and said you`re too heavy, Margaret.
CHO: Yes basically.
BEHAR: It`s so rude.
CHO: It`s so rude but then I was so scared because I wanted the job. And I`d never faced that really before you know, so I was like, oh, I`d better, I better do something about it and I lost a tremendous amount of weight very, very quickly.
BEHAR: How did you do it?
CHO: I just didn`t eat and worked out --
BEHAR: Constantly.
CHO: -- constantly.
BEHAR: Well, that`s what they do.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: These girls.
CHO: That`s what all the girls do --
BEHAR: Yes.
CHO: -- and they were -- they were actually dispensing drugs then called FenPhen (ph) --
BEHAR: Oh yes.
CHO: -- which was a very dangerous drug which left me with a heart murmur.
BEHAR: Really.
CHO: A lot of people were pretty devastated health wise by that drug but it was prescribed so freely and readily to anybody who want it. And I kind of liked it because it was like -- I didn`t have to worry about it. But then it really damaged my health.
BEHAR: Those -- those appetite suppressants are not good because after you stop taking them you just get to -- it comes roaring back.
CHO: And -- and with a vengeance.
BEHAR: Exactly, exactly.
CHO: Now, the health.
BEHAR: Now, there`s this thing going on in New York, this woman who -- is she`s suing Citibank. Did you read this today?
CHO: I did.
BEHAR: She was fired, she claims for being beautiful.
CHO: Right.
BEHAR: She was too distracting to her male co-workers and they dumped her. There`s a picture of her if you can see. She`s very attractive girl.
CHO: Yes, she`s beautiful.
BEHAR: And you know, her lawyer says she could be in a burqa or a hefty bag and she would still look stunning and drive the men wild.
CHO: She still looks great, yes.
BEHAR: I mean, but are we really to believe that men can`t control themselves around a woman who is really pretty?
CHO: Well, I think they`re always going to say something and they`re always going to talk. I mean, we`ve -- you and I both have worked on sets where it is mostly men. And if you are around and you`re a pretty girl you`re going to get a lot of attention whether you want it or not.
I mean I think that there is something biological with men that they can`t really control the comments or the compliments or whatever. It`s going to be something that invades your space no matter what and I feel sorry this woman got fired. It`s not fair to her. She should be able to get a job.
BEHAR: Well, maybe it`s because she`s working at a bank, though. You know at bank you`re supposed to not be that gorgeous in a bank. It`s just about the money.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s not about looking at you.
BEHAR: I know.
BEHAR: You know? But I mean she might have a case. I don`t know if she`s too full of herself. Because it`s her claim, I`m just too -- remember that commercial don`t hate me because I`m beautiful. Shut up. Just shut up as Rhett Butler used to say, "Oh, honey, there were so many more reasons to hate you."
CHO: Oh, yes, yes.
BEHAR: Now, let`s talk about Obama for a minute. I understand you`re a big supporter. And you know today everyone is talking on all the shows, the talk shows about how he`s sort of cold and cut off and he`s not crying on television or being overly sensitive or emotional. What is your take on that?
CHO: I think he`s been really great. I mean, I was just at the White House.
BEHAR: Really.
CHO: And I was there and he was doing a big event for Asian history month and he brought out -- he -- he introduced I think his name is Father Vien (ph), who is a big spiritual leader on the Gulf, he is the spiritual leader for a lot of the Vietnamese community who have lost everything because of the oil spill.
You know, these are all the fishers and all the shrimpers, these people who -- their livelihood depends on the ocean now have nothing and so he was really adamant about supporting that community, talking about that community, you know, bringing up this very important man in that community. So I saw maybe a different side.
I think, also during that speech Obama winked at me and I was like, oh, the President wants to flirt and I said "Yes we can" because he is hot in person.
BEHAR: Bring it on.
CHO: He is hot.
BEHAR: Bring it on. So -- so this sounds like a more private event.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: What he needs to do according to these pundits is cry on television. They want him to be mushy, like you know, I feel your pain. You know -- that routine.
CHO: I guess they want that but what he`s really doing is paying attention to the communities that are really hurt by this incredible natural disaster. I mean not a natural disaster but human-made disaster but is a natural catastrophe.
BEHAR: One of the worst that we`ve ever seen. Margaret, stay right there. We`ll be back with more in a minute with Margaret Cho.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Margaret Cho. Now, I understand you`re performing at the Bonnaroo Festival June 11th and 10th with Conan.
CHO: Yes, he`s going to be headlining a night. I`m going to be headlining a night. I think (INAUDIBLE) is -- it`s a big music and comedy festival so I`m going to be out there. I`m doing a little music, doing a little comedy, I`m doing a little bit of both.
BEHAR: Where is this?
CHO: It`s going to be in Manchester, Tennessee, on a big farm.
BEHAR: Outdoors.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: Comedy outdoors.
CHO: No, the Comedy Tent actually is the only air conditioned place on the entire farm.
BEHAR: Oh.
CHO: So it`s the place to be.
BEHAR: Because, you know, the audience won`t laugh if they`re hot.
CHO: No.
BEHAR: You must be freezing.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you have any information on his new late night show?
CHO: I don`t. I`d like to be on it though. I`m a big fan of his.
BEHAR: He`s great. We love him and we love Jay and we love Letterman. They`re all funny.
CHO: They`re all great.
BEHAR: It was a sad thing that Jay Leno, I thought came out looking bad for some reason. I don`t know why.
CHO: I don`t -- I don`t even know. I mean I don`t know why but it`s just I`m a fan of all of them. I think they`re al great and Conan especially because he`s a different generation so it`s nice to see him doing well.
BEHAR: He`s younger.
CHO: He`s sweet.
BEHAR: Ok, now, this is -- these are twitter questions. Someone says asks her to imitate her mom. I love her mom, Margaret`s.
CHO: Well, my mom --
BEHAR: Margaret they go.
CHO: My mom refused to go -- I got invited to the White House by Michelle Obama for mother`s day and my mom -- they just joined a new country club so they`re like, "Oh, tell Michelle thank you but no."
I`m like you`re refusing an invitation to the White House?
Yes.
I go you really don`t want to go.
No.
I`m like how could you -- well, we just joined country club. We want to play golf. We so upset about Tiger. We have to work it out on the course.
Very upset about Tiger. They still are upset.
BEHAR: I know. Who isn`t?
CHO: They had to work it out on the course.
BEHAR: Now, there`s another question. These people know a lot about you. You`re bisexual and a lot of people are surprised to find out you`re married. Are you swingers.
CHO: We are not swingers because we keep it private. We keep -- because he has a relationship with a wonderful woman.
BEHAR: He does.
CHO: Long term.
BEHAR: Yes. While you`re married to him.
CHO: Yes, while I`m married him.
BEHAR: Wait a minute.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, and you.
CHO: And I have had different relationships over the past several years.
BEHAR: While you`re married to him.
CHO: While I`m married to him.
BEHAR: With women or men.
CHO: Both.
BEHAR: With both?
CHO: With women and men.
BEHAR: And who do you like better?
CHO: I tend to like men better because I like something going in. You know, something going in. You can`t beat it -- can`t be beat.
BEHAR: Well then why not just go with men and leave the women out there.
CHO: Because I like women too. I have an open heart and I mean myself, look, I don`t believe in monogamy. To me every relationship I`ve tried to be monogamous and it hasn`t worked but I`ve also been with my husband like for very many, many years.
BEHAR: So you`re like Jean Paul Sartre and Simone De Beauvoir. Don`t you get jealous of each other?
CHO: I don`t.
BEHAR: You don`t. He doesn`t either.
CHO: He doesn`t either. I mean to us we`re very mature about it. You know now it works. It`s worked for ten years so it should keep working.
BEHAR: You`re so avant-garde. I can`t get over it.
Another question before we go? Do we have another second? You turned 40 recently. They know everything. Would you ever consider getting plastic surgery or botox?
CHO: Possibly but I haven`t figured out, you know, what I want yet. I want everything or I want nothing. I also kind of want to see what happens.
BEHAR: What happens --
CHO: To my body and to see what it looks like.
BEHAR: Oh, it`ll fall.
CHO: Yes.
BEHAR: Oh, yes. Margaret thanks.
CHO: Thank you
BEHAR: The second season of "Drop Dead Diva" premieres this Sunday night on Lifetime and season one available on DVD now.
We`ll back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Three and half years ago reverend Ted Haggard got caught up in a sex scandal and consequently was ostracized from his church but this Sunday he`s opening a brand new congregation in Colorado Springs. Joining me from Colorado, Ted Haggard founder of St. James Church and his wife Gayle author of "Why I Stayed." Welcome. Good to see you again.
TED HAGGARD, FOUNDER, ST. JAMES CHURCH: Thank you.
GAYLE HAGGARD, WIFE OF TED HAGGARD: Great, Joy. Thank you.
BEHAR: OK Ted, let me start with you. Your last church was not understanding at all when you were involved in a sex scandal with a male escort. Now you`re bouncing back with a new church. How are you going to do that?
T. HAGGARD: Well, of course, one of the wonderful things about being an American is that it`s the people that decide who they look to for spiritual leadership and for moral influence and things like that. And so we`re going to find out this Sunday about who has decided that they`re willing to meet with me and Gayle and study the scriptures together and have a barbecue together and celebrate a new launch.
BEHAR: Gayle, do you think the faithful of Colorado Springs are ready to trust Ted again?
G. HAGGARD: Well, I think there are those who will. And we are waiting to see who wants to join with us. We`re really excited about this Sunday, to see who is going to show up.
BEHAR: So you don`t really know yet how many people you`re going to have? You don`t know that?
T. HAGGARD: Oh, not at all. Joy, we could have 20 people. We could have 200 people. Or we could have a thousand people. And if we have more than 20, I`m going to be happy, though. And I`m not too concerned about the number. What I`m concerned -- or what I`m interested in is that we have a group of people gathering together with us so that we can have a spiritual community again there in Colorado Springs. It will be wonderful.
BEHAR: Well you know, Ted --
G. HAGGARD: And we do know --
BEHAR: Go ahead, Gayle.
G. HAGGARD: we have been hearing from people steadily over the last two years that we`ve been home asking us to start again. So we do know there are people who are interested.
BEHAR: Well you know, Ted, let me ask you a rather insensitive question. You`re very open about having lied and deceived your wife and the congregation.
T. HAGGARD: Right.
BEHAR: I mean that has happened. How do you justify your moral authority to preach to these people?
T. HAGGARD: I don`t justify my moral authority. I don`t know for sure that I would go to own church. But I do know that --
BEHAR: You are not sure -- say that again. You`re not sure you would go to your own church?
T. HAGGARD: In the state I was in prior to my fall, I thought differently than I think now after all the embarrassment, the shame, the suffering, the baptism and love and compassion and understanding that I`ve been through. I`ve become a different man. And so now I realize that very often people become what they`ve always wanted to be through suffering. And I`ve become a better man. And I`m a changed man. I see people differently. And so when I see people going through a struggle now, I`m not judgmental, I`m not critical. I want to be helpful and encouraging. And so that`s the way I see it now.
BEHAR: Yes.
T. HAGGARD: So other people that are able to look at me that way will be responsive to me. If people look at me the way I might have looked at me ten years ago, they are not going to be so responsive.
BEHAR: OK. It`s fair. Will gays be welcome in the church?
T. HAGGARD: Absolutely. So will people that don`t pray enough. So will people that don`t love enough. So will people that are overweight. So will people that are underweight. So will people that are -- have low I.Q`s and high I.Q`s. Humanity needs love and needs God. And so we`re gathering together of sinners who are gratefully redeemed. No self righteous people will be there, I`m pretty sure.
BEHAR: See, I have to take issue when you say -- you put home September as a sin. It`s not a sin. Maybe that`s the problem with the rap. It`s not a sin.
T. HAGGARD: I hear you. Heterosexuals are welcome too. So are bisexuals. Everybody -- everybody is a failure in one area or another, regardless of whatever group we put them in.
BEHAR: OK. So you don`t consider homosexuality a failure anymore? Is that what I`m hearing?
T. HAGGARD: Here`s what I consider. I say here on the earth sexuality, no matter which grouping, sexuality is complex. It`s confusing. And people enter -- some people have healthy sexuality. Other people have unhealthly think sexuality. They`re on their own journeys with God. They have got to work that out. And what we`re going to do at St. James Church is encourage them in their process to get that settled in their life.
BEHAR: OK. Let me ask you about marriage in general.
T. HAGGARD: OK.
BEHAR: You know the Gores just split after 40 years, which is quite shocking to people. You`ve been married for over 30 years. How is your marriage going?
T. HAGGARD: Oh, it`s fabulous. It`s better now than it`s ever been.
BEHAR: Gayle? Gayle?
G. HAGGARD: I would agree. And I think having gone through what we`ve gone through in our marriage has really caused us to grow closer to each other. It`s forced us to be more open and honest and understanding of each other. And I feel as though what`s going on with the Gore family -- I certainly don`t know the details, but I find it very sad.
BEHAR: Well, divorce is never a happy time except when you meet the next one. Then it`s all right.
(LAUGHTER)
T. HAGGARD: See, that`s why we`re here today, Joy. We are so sold on the second chance. We`re so sold on new beginnings. It`s true divorce is bad. But there is a tomorrow. For everybody.
BEHAR: Yes.
T. HAGGARD: That`s what I want to communicate.
BEAHR: Yes. OK. Now, after the sex scandal, you suggested to Gayle that she divorce you. Why did you do that?
T. HAGGARD: Right. I felt as though I had become so toxic and that people would hate me and that we would be so poor and in so much social trouble and financial trouble the rest of our lives that for she and the children to have any hope at all for a happy future, I need to be out of the picture. And so I told her that the best thing you can do for your financial future and your -- to have any open doors at all in the future would be for you to separate from me and go your own way. That`s why I asked her to divorce me.
BEHAR: Do you feel, go ahead --
G. HAGGARD: Yes. And I disagreed because I felt as though family really means something to me. And commitment really means something to me. And I placed high value on our family. And I knew my husband for many years before the scandal. And I walked through the scandal with him. And now I`m still with him. And I feel as though it`s all part of the package of working through our difficulties in life. There`s no perfect marriage, no perfect family. But we grow together. And we`re the better for it. And I`m really glad to be where we are today and I`m glad that my family is still together and loving each other and going through life together.
BEHAR: Well let me ask you another --
T. HAGGARD: And what I didn`t realize then was that if she would have left, I would have crashed and probably never resurrected. But now we`re resurrecting. We have people rallying around us. We`ve got friends again. We`re able to do things again. We`re earning financial strength again. Those things are starting to happen again in our lives. And that`s why I want to have St. James church, to communicate no matter how low you get, no matter how depressed you get, if you`ll just stay alive, and stay with each other, you`ll make it.
BEHAR: So I have to ask you one more rude question. You had homosexual tendencies in those days. Do you still have them? Cause I mean it`s a legitimate question to ask you even if you`re married to a woman. You could still have those feelings. Do you?
T. HAGGARD: It is. It is -- what happened to me. See, this is real sensitive with me because as I -- I was confused about that. So we`ve been through a lot of therapy about that. I`ve talked to a lot of good, high qualified people about that. What I was going through was a response to what happened to me in the second grade with one of my dad`s adult employees. So it was a response to trauma. Now, here`s why I hesitate even talking about it. Is because some people would say, then, oh, then people that are homosexuals, it is the result of trauma. That is not the case. I`m not saying that. Or other people would say --
BEHAR: So what are you saying?
T. HAGGARD: Oh, Ted`s displacing responsibility. I am not saying that. What I am saying is this is my story. I went through that experience. It showed up in me doing certain things when I was in my late 40s or 50 and then I went through treatment for trauma, not for sexual orientation. For trauma.
BEHAR: I see, so that was your --
T. HAGGARD: For trauma and I dealt with that.
BEHAR: I get you so you`re saying that you were acting out in response to the trauma rather than that you are a homosexual, right?
T. HAGGARD: Absolutely. And that`s what I`ve said all along. But because of the way my accuser spoke during the two years we were quiet, everybody assumes another thing. And so we`re trying to clarify that. Even -- we just put a new post up on tedhaggard.com, the healing overview, help explain that to people so they could get a clearer picture that I`m not commenting on homosexuality. I`m just trying to tell the truth about myself and let everybody go their own path.
BEHAR: And get your church together.
T. HAGGARD: Huh?
BEHAR: And you want to get this congregation together. So good luck to you both. I`m always happy to see both of you. Good luck to you.
HAGGARD: Thank you, it`s always good to see you, Joy.
BEHAR: OK, thank you, we`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of the world`s most outspoken critics of Islam. And as a result her life is constantly under threat, she left Islam years ago and railed against what she believes is its institutionalized treatment of women especially when it comes to female genital mutilation. With me is now Ayaan Hirsi Ali, author of "Nomad: A Personal Journey Through The Clash Of Civilizations." Ayaan, you`re a very brave woman, I must tell you, and I`m very interested in what you say in this book about female genital mutilation. It`s not circumcision. It`s much more violent? Isn`t it?
AYAAN HIRSI ALI, AUTHOR, "NOMAD": It is. Most people think circumcision and then they think about boy circumcision.
BEHAR: Yes.
ALI: And in the case of boys, at least we are told is a lot of controversy about it if you remove the foreskin or parts of it, it`s more medical reasons, cleansing, et cetera.
BEHAR: Right.
ALI: There is absolutely no medical reason to cut off parts of the clitoris of girl or cut off parts, excuse my language vagina or to sew it. And I think most Americans are not familiar with what female genital mutilation is and why it`s done and to how many people it`s done.
BEHAR: It`s millions of women, girls and women in the world are having this done to them. I`m trying -- 130 million women. That is half of the United States population.
ALI: It is half of the United States population, 130 million women is an estimate by the American Health Association. According to the United Nations World Health Organization it`s 140 million women. Anyway, let`s see. Anywhere between 140 -- it is an epidemic.
BEHAR: It`s an epidemic.
ALI: It`s worse than the HIV epidemic. The HIV epidemic is a natural disaster. The female genital mutilation epidemic is a manmade disaster. It`s people -
BEHAR: Right.
ALI: Parents were doing it to their children?
BEHAR: Now, your parents had this done to you.
ALI: My grandmother.
BEHAR: Your grandmother.
ALI: My grandmother was convinced that my life was going to be shortened. I wouldn`t find a husband that there would be no way for the family to prove I was a virgin when I came of age. So she had it done, she had it done to my sister and my grandmother is just one of millions and millions of women. It was done to her. It was done to her mother. It was done to everybody she knew.
BEHAR: And what is the purpose of it in the religion? What is the purpose?
ALI: The purpose is to make sure that you are a virgin and that it can be proven, impurity, on your wedding night. You`re married off.
BEHAR: So the vagina is sewed up so that no one touches you before you`re married.
ALI: Yes, it is and it proves that. And it isn`t just the vagina that is sewed, the inner labia are removed. Sometimes the inner and outer labia are also removed. Sometimes only the clitoris is removed. Sometimes the clitoris, the whole purpose is to diminish female sexuality and to ensure that on your wedding night your parents, your tribe, your clan, your family can prove to the marrying family that you are a virgin.
BEHAR: Well you know, in the old day, I mean in many countries in Europe, you know, there was the blood would tell you whether the girl was a virgin or not. Why do they have to go to such extreme measures for something like that?
ALI: I think because, a, people have come to realize -- you can`t just tell by blood. Blood is red and it`s not just blood that is red. So many other things are red.
BEHAR: So you can be fooled, a man can be fooled.
ALI: My cousin and I talk about it in the book used to say when she was in Mogadishu between the ages of 15 to when they were married off they would have sex whenever they wanted. They would have -- they would go to these women would break them open and then just before their wedding nights a few weeks, six week, eight weeks before, they would have themselves sewn up, they would have this elaborate glittering weddings, husbands would be pleased, the other family would be pleased, so it doesn`t do anything about your libido.
BEHAR: I see.
ALI: And that`s the interesting thing -
BEHAR: What kills the libido in the process, is this the clitorectomy.
ALI: I talked to various doctors in the Netherlands and the doctors have really explicitly about this sort of thing and they say each and every female, each and every male they just have differently libidos. You can`t say, can be born with more of it or less of it. You can`t kill it that way except in extreme invigilation (ph), it kills girls even before they get to the age --
BEHAR: Oh it`s a very, very terrible thing and don`t use anesthesia very often. My God.
ALI: They don`t use anesthesia, they use sharp rocks. They use scissors, razor blades. Kids the age of 5, 6, 7, swell up, get an infection. Get paralyzed and get killed.
BEHAR: They get killed. Remember we`re talking about 130 million girls and women in the world.
ALI: Maybe 140.
BEHAR: And just I`m curious, why do these men who actually -- obviously they`re the ones who perpetrate this. Why do they want a girl to not have pleasure in sex? I mean the virgin part is one thing, but then why after they`re married would they want the girl -- their wives to not have fun with sex?
ALI: You know, where I come from, the question why is rare.
BEHAR: They don`t ask the question.
ALI: No, people just do what --
BEHAR: They don`t want the answer.
ALI: They don`t know the answer, but while I`m in the west, I have spoken to a number of highly to a number with highly educated, experienced humane compassionate men of Muslim origin, and they may want to change it. They`ll only do it if other men do it.
BEHAR: Well you know, I think you`re a very brave lady and you speaking out against this. It was my privilege to speak to you tonight about this. And I hope that every little thing we do can help this cause and stop this -- this brutal, brutal right that is being perpetrated on young girls and women. Thank you very much.
ALI: Thank you very having me.
BEHAR: OK, we`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSIE ESSMAN, HOST, "CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM: THE DISCUSSION": Is there any worst offense, Jerry, than not having a lock on a guest bathroom?
JERRY SEINFELD: Well that was a terrible, terrible faux pas, social faux pas. To have people over and a guest bathroom with no lock on it. You are asking for --
ESSMAN: You put a guard there or paper weight or something.
SEINFELD: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know some artists paint pictures with words. Robert Frost, May Angelo, Steven Sometime, and my pal, Susie Essman, who I like to think of as the Georgia O`Keefe of the f word. Susie is hosting TV Guide`s "CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, THE DISCUSSION" airing June second. So welcome Susie to my show.
ESSMAN: I have a gift Joy.
BEHAR: I like how it`s "CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM. THE DISCUSSION." What`s the discussion?
ESSMAN: The discussion is it`s actually -- I wish we were shooting in New York because I`d want you to be one of the panelists.
BEHAR: You`re not in New York at all?
ESSMAN: No, we`re shooting all of them in LA.
BEHAR: Oh.
ESSMAN: It`s at -- now that we`re syndicated on TV Guide Network Wednesday`s at 10:00 p.m., the show is being stretched to an hour. So we have to add content because they`re not editing the content of the shows and they`re adding commercials.
BEHAR: Right.
ESSMAN: So we`re having a panel discussion on the moral and ethical implications of Larry`s behavior for each episode. And we have great guests. We have you know, Gloria Allred and Dr. Drew Pinsky and then comedians like Larry Miller and Jerry Seinfeld and Joe Scarborough , and Micah Brzezinski. And you know news people and just D.L. Hughley and great people --
BEHAR: And they dissect Larry David`s behavior -
ESSMAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: Which a lot of it is deplorable, as a character.
ESSMAN: You know what`s interesting is, yes, but what is interesting, you know, my character, Suzy Green, is always against Larry. Yet, Susie Essman, as I`m dissecting it I agree with him a lot of times.
BEHAR: Is that so, like when he urinated on the picture of Jesus or whatever it was?
ESSMAN: OK, he didn`t do that, don`t spread rumors.
BEHAR: OK, what did he do?
ESSMAN: It splashed. He was urinating and it splashed.
BEHAR: Oh it splashed, yes OK, so what part of that do you agree with?
ESSMAN: We haven`t done that episode yet. A lot of the times a lot of what Larry does is, he you know, sticks his nose --
BEHAR: foot in his mouth.
ESSMAN: No. -- the social mores that we all adhere to, he says, no, I`m not giving into this. You can leave a party before the dessert is served. You know? These kinds of really important issues. Some of, actually, it`s just silly stuff and some of it, I mean, we had this great discussion with D.L. Hughley about affirmative action. Larry says a lot of stuff about race -
BEHAR: He does.
ESSMAN: A lot of stuff about the handicapped.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: You know he takes on -
BEHAR: He does. He pushes the envelope. Yes, but he does get in trouble, plenty.
ESSMAN: Yes and he doesn`t care.
BEHAR: No. He doesn`t care at all.
ESSMAN: No, no.
BEHAR: It doesn`t bother him.
ESSMAN: He never thinks, I shouldn`t do this because this is going to offend or upset anybody. He never sensors himself like that.
BEHAR: But didn`t he get in trouble with the Orthodox Jews one time?
ESSMAN: Yes they didn`t like the ski lift episode where he`s pretending to be an Orthodox so he could get a kidney for Richard Lewis and I had to pretend to be his life.
BEHAR: That`s a good one.
ESSMAN: Yes, they didn`t like that. Because they felt -- that was one of my favorite episodes, they felt that he was ridiculing Orthodoxy and in a sense he was, but he doesn`t care.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: First of all, you know his bottom line, if it is funny it`s funny. He doesn`t care about anything other than it being funny.
BEHAR: Right, that`s true. I also liked when he did the "SURVIVOR" episode.
ESSMAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: He must have got in trouble for that.
ESSMAN: Well I don`t think so. Because I think he was actually taking the side of the holocaust survivors.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: He was ridiculing the "SURVIVOR" TV show and their insipid savageness --
BEHAR: Well he`s really on the right side of things. So I can understand why you`d be on his side. Susie, thanks for stopping by and thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
