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Joy Behar Page
Coleman`s Living Will Scandal; Reality Show for Sail?; Joran Trouble
Aired June 15, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Tonight, new reports say Gary Coleman`s living will said to leave him on life support unless he was in a coma for 15 days. Yet Shannon Price pulled the plug after only one day. Why would she do that?
Then "Real Housewife`s" Bethenny Frankel says she built a viable career as opposed to "Apprentice" star Omarosa, who happens to be here. Omarosa answered that Bethenny married a gay guy. Sometimes I love reality TV.
And back when Madonna was an actual virgin and before the Lady went Gaga, there were feminist-fueled hits from Pat Benatar. We`ll talk to her about her new memoir.
That and more right now.
The controversy continues in the death of "Diff`rent Strokes" star Gary Coleman. A living will for Coleman has surfaced which says the actor did not want to be taken off life support unless he was in an irreversible coma for 15 days. So why did his ex-wife Shannon Price pull the plug after just one day?
Here with me to discuss this are Debra Opri, defense attorney who has represented the Jackson family and James Brown; Carlos Diaz, syndicated radio host; and Randy Kester, a former attorney to Gary Coleman and current attorney for Anna Gray, the woman named in the Coleman`s 2005 will.
Carlos, what happened at the hospital?
CARLOS DIAZ, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: Well, I mean, that`s the crazy thing. When Gary Coleman went to the hospital, he slips into a coma, and not even 24 hours after he slips into this coma, his non-wife, Shannon Price, decides to pull the plug or gives the directive to pull the plug when he had clearly stated he did not want the plug pulled on him in a 2006 health care directive. In fact, he checked "choice to prolong life", meaning he wanted his life be prolonged as long as possible.
Now you have a fight over the estate. And with Debra Opri sitting right there, Debra can tell you from having to deal with the Anna Nicole Smith case, this is starting to sound like that case.
BEHAR: Right.
Debra, she didn`t have the right to pull the plug, did she? She wasn`t married to the guy.
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She was the designated --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
OPRI: Well, we have a series of layers of the onion skin that are being pealed back. First, you know, she`s arguing common law marriage. In the state of Utah, common law marriage is, you know, acknowledged. However, she has to show they had an intent to be married and there was a divorce a few years prior.
So when you get past the common law marriage, we then say look to the health care directive, which in some states is called the living will. And she was a designated health care agent. She was given a long list of authority and, except for that one area where he said, don`t do this if you can save me and prolong my life under generally accepted medical procedures, you then have to go to the last page of this health care directive and it`s almost like Gary Coleman is jumping out from the grave and having the last word. He basically is saying, in my opinion, in that document, if you feel, Shannon, that they won`t be able to save me, do what you need to do.
BEHAR: Really? Well, Shannon has said the doctors advised her to take him off of life support.
OPRI: It`s very important that he gave a lot of credence to the opinions of the doctors, but she made the final decision.
BEHAR: Well, ok. Let`s go to Debra. She says she was in a common law marriage. So did that give her the right to pull the plug? Let`s get that clear.
OPRI: Well, just because she`s in a common law marriage and that common law marriage argument is upheld -- and I don`t think it would be because there was a divorce and, therefore, no intent to be married and be held out as a marriage.
BEHAR: Right.
OPRI: If there is a common law marriage, it still doesn`t give her the right to say, I don`t care what you say, Gary, I want the plug pulled. So if we can set aside that common-law marriage authority that she had and just go to that written document, it`s a contract.
And Gary gave her such authority by saying, you`ve got at least eight elements of authority here to do what you need to do. Don`t prolong my life. Don`t give any additional medical procedures. I don`t want to be sustained like this without the quality of life. And then he says, by checking a little box, oh, and by the way, don`t pull the plug too soon, in not so many words.
But the phrase is so convoluted, Joy, in terms of don`t do something if it`s going to interfere with the accepted medical procedures, if you can prolong my life that way, whatever`s reasonable. Then you go to the last page and he says, hey, listen, irrespective of everything I`ve just said, you get to make that decision.
In his last page, if you look to the last page of that directive --
BEHAR: It`s so confusing.
OPRI: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s very confusing.
OPRI: He got the last word.
BEHAR: It`s also disturbing, to me. Because the Utah Medical Association says family members` wishes trump the living will. So the living will is not worth the paper it`s written on, right? Who would like to answer that?
OPRI: I don`t agree with that.
BEHAR: Let`s see what Randy has to say about that.
RANDY KESTER, FORMER ATTORNEY TO GARY COLEMAN: The question is?
The question is how do you feel about the Utah Medical Association saying that family members` wishes trump the living will? Here`s the person who says -- I have one myself.
I have a living will. Don`t keep me in a vegetative state unless my feet are moving, of course. But if they`re not, take me out of it. You know? Now my feet may be moving a little and someone decides to override the living will because the family`s wishes just changed it? That doesn`t make sense to me.
KESTER: My experiences in those situations, physicians don`t put pressure on anyone. I think they give you options. They tell you what the condition is. They exercise some understanding about the situation.
But my experience is that they never put pressure on anybody. They give you options. They let you make those decisions.
And in this case, I guess the thing that`s sort of haunting me is I`m not sure that any person in that situation in a hospital bed, in a situation where their life may be terminated wants their ex-spouse making that decision.
BEHAR: I know. That`s how I feel about it.
Ok. Another 911 call from Price this January has surfaced on TMZ. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SHANNON PRICE, FORMER WIFE OF GARY COLEMAN: My husband freaked out last night, called the cops. They were going to arrest him. But they didn`t. He`s freaking out again, hitting his head on the wall, knocked the fan over. You know, he`s just being crazy again.
911 OPERATOR: Is he suicidal?
PRICE: Yes, he`s suicidal, but I just don`t know what his problem is. I`m trying to help him because he has so many medical problems. And, you know, I thought it would be kind of mean if I just left, you know?
911 OPERATOR: Right.
PRICE: Because he would just die. I have a friend over here. He`s like humiliating me in front of my friends and it`s just (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don`t know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: This girl is all heart. You know? What`s your reaction to this call, Randy?
KESTER: My reaction is in January, she`s preoccupied from taking care of Gary because her friend`s there. Then this last incident ended up in Gary`s death her dog was there. She`s got plenty of other things to be doing, taking care of her dog and taking care of her friends. And the 911 call, that`s disturbing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead, Carlos.
DIAZ: It paints Shannon in a light -- after the death, she talked about how she and Gary were going to get remarried, how they loved one another. She was painting their relationship about this rosy-colored image.
Then when you hear this 911 tape from January, she`s talking about death constantly. He`s suicidal. If I leave, he`ll die. He told the cop if I come at him -- if Gary said to the police officer the other night, if I come at you just shoot me. She`s talking about death constantly in this call and it paints a whole new image of her.
And I`ve said it time and time again; I honestly believe the Utah authorities closed this case a little too soon. I`m not making implications here but I wouldn`t mind and a lot of people wouldn`t mind seeing this case revisited in some way because there`s been a lot of question marks here.
BEHAR: Yes, you know --
OPRI: If I may?
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
OPRI: You have to give a little credit to her because she lived, from what I understand, with a very difficult person. And she didn`t sound cold-blooded. She just sounded matter of fact, here we go again. And you got to give her a little credit. And if she was putting up with this for a long time and saying, yes, he`s suicidal, banging his head against the wall, she put up with a lot. And I think that`s what you were hearing in the voice.
BEHAR: Yes.
Well, also, you have to give her the edge also because she did call 911. She didn`t let him just keep banging his head, right?
OPRI: No, she didn`t.
DIAZ: Yes.
BEHAR: Let`s give her a little couple points for that.
Now, Randy, you represent Anna Gray, who is the other woman in his life. When was the last time Anna spoke to Gary?
KESTER: It`s been years.
BEHAR: Years?
KESTER: It`s been years. Probably 2006-ish.
BEHAR: Yes, he was still hanging out with Shannon. So why does Anna deserve control of the estate over Shannon?
KESTER: Well, I`m not so sure it`s a matter of equitably deserving to so much as it is that`s what Gary wanted. That`s what Gary put in writing, that`s what Gary had witnessed and that`s what Gary had left for us to deal with.
Anna`s desire is simply to carry out the wishes that Gary expressed in this will. She didn`t -- he had indicated to her years earlier, back in `05, `06 that he had a will that named her -- she quite frankly was shocked when he told her about that. She sort of blew it off. And actually fell to pieces when she found out he had been telling her the truth and that this will existed and that he named her as the executor. She was emotionally overwhelmed with this.
BEHAR: This story is not going to go away so fast, I have a feeling. The judge appointed a third party to guard the estate while the two women figure it out.
Now, how long before this is settled? Debra -- or whoever knows the answer to that?
OPRI: I can jump in here. When I was last on your show, we were talking about the contents of his will. As these people should come, and I don`t want these people that have financial interest in me. It appears to me that Gary Coleman had a lot of emotional difficulty in dealing with people in his life.
And if this woman was in his will in 2005 and there is a holographic will, handwritten, in 2006 or 2007 for Shannon, and she is the name that appears on most of the legal documents since, and he divorced her in 2008 and she was still living with him and taking care of him at the time of his death, it would appear to me for all intents and purposes including the pension, that she may be the person who is the beneficiary here.
KESTER: Well, except for the 2007 document, it`s not a will. It clearly is stated at the beginning. This is an addendum. I`m not revoking my prior wills. I`m maintaining them in full force and effect. I`m simply changing some of the terms of the distribution of my property.
OPRI: Right.
KESTER: And under Utah law -- under Utah law an addendum or codicil is terminated and of no force and effect after a divorce.
BEHAR: All right.
OPRI: There is conflict, it cancels each other out.
BEHAR: I`m going to have to let that be the last word. So thanks very much.
Up next, a 16-year-old girl tries to sail around the globe and narrowly escapes death. It turns out it may have been part of a reality TV deal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, reality star Omarosa finds herself in a real life feud with "Real Housewife" Bethenny Frankel. Omarosa drops by to tell her side of the story.
And 80`s rock icon Pat Benatar sits down with Joy to talk about her new memoir "Between a Heart and a Rock Place".
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Abby Sunderland is the teenager who made headlines after her attempt to sail around the world left her stranded at sea. "Adventures in Sunderland" is the name of a reality show that her father was allegedly developing about his 16-year-old daughter.
So was it Abby`s idea or did her father push her into dangerous circumstances? Here he is last night on "LARRY KING".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Some people say all this was done as a stunt. Was this done -- and it`s a direct question -- to get a reality show?
LAURENCE SUNDERLAND, ABBY SUNDERLAND`S FATHER: Yes, that`s absolutely ridiculous. My passion at first and foremost is for my children and their endeavors. And it`s absolutely, totally ridiculous and totally unfounded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me to talk about the controversy are Ted Caloroso, a director of photography who worked with the Sunderland family on a reality TV show and Bonnie Fuller, president and editor-in-chief of HollywoodLife.com.
Ted, let me start with you. At what point where you developing a reality show with Abby`s dad and what happened to it?
TED CALOROSO, WORKED WITH SUNDERLAND`S ON REALITY SHOW: Well, back in November of 2009, we started developing the show. I contacted Laurence Sunderland, my brother worked under Zack`s (ph) campaign, her brother`s campaign. I asked him if he would be interested.
And just so -- and just so -- just so everyone`s clear on everything, I`m not a reality producer, I`m a director of photography. This was the first unscripted thing I had ever done.
So I contacted Lawrence and I said, would you be interested in this? And I pitched it to some of my friends and pitched it to a friend of at Reveille Productions. And he -- they went to try to sell it to a network and I basically just started shooting footage.
BEHAR: I see.
You know, Bonnie, her dad claims it was her dream to sail around the world, not his. And she was only 16. But he could have stopped her even though she had a dream. You don`t have to fulfill every dream a kid has, right?
BONNIE FULLER, PRESIDENT AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COM: That`s right. That`s what parents are there for because children have got lots of dreams. And she was at 16 still a minor. Let`s not forget, when people are still 16, teenagers, their brains are not formed yet. They`re immature. It`s scientific fact that brains are not fully developed until they`re about 25.
That`s why teenagers think they`re infallible. They think that nothing`s ever going to happen to them. So that`s why parents are supposed to be there to say, that`s a wonderful dream, we`ll support you, and when you`re a little older and wiser, then we`ll help you pursue it.
BEHAR: Well, just to be clear about where he was coming from, his son had done it the year before. I believe it was a year before.
(CROSSTALK)
FULLER: That wasn`t such a good idea either.
BEHAR: But he made it. He made it. And he says that this girl knew the ropes on boats since she was like 2 or 3 years old. So she wasn`t exactly a 16-year-old whose brain was not functioning at that level of sailing.
FULLER: Well, she may have had great experience as a sailor, but we all know that as you get older, you get more experience and you also are better able to calculate risks yourself.
When you`re 16, you`re still -- and 17, her brother, who was also young, you`re gung ho. You never think anything`s bad going to happen to you.
BEHAR: Right. Well, maybe he had a reality show in mind. Ted, Sunderland claimed on "LARRY KING" that he was the one to cut ties with you, Ted. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNDERLAND: Ted Caloroso wanted to take this in an unethical direction, which we would not be a part of.
KING: Unethical how?
SUNDERLAND: He was going to try and exploit me and throw me under the bus as an irresponsible parent that knew nothing about yachting and boating which is something I`ve --
KING: How was he going to make money doing that?
SUNDERLAND: He was basing it on Abigail dying going around Cape Horn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That is some accusation, Ted. How do you respond to that?
CALOROSO: Yes, I mean it`s absolutely a lie. The guy`s a complete liar. And I don`t know how he lives with himself. He sent his daughter out to sea, and she could have died. Thank God this fiasco circus ended in reality and after some of the stuff I saw -- at first we believed in him. He`s very charming.
Then right a week out, she immediately had to stop and some of the stuff I saw him do in Cabo, I was just blown away. When I came back from Cabo, I immediately called a meeting with Reveille. I told the producers -- the executive producers at Reveille what I had seen and I told them that I thought there would be a greater chance that she would be at risk.
BEHAR: What did you see?
CALOROSO: And that something serious could happen to her.
BEHAR: What did you see?
CALOROSO: He didn`t plan the trip properly. He added huge batteries, he added 20-plus, these jury cans that you put fuel in, the five-gallon jury cans -- 5-gallon, excuse me.
And he put them all along inside the boat and in the cockpit where on the outside, which is called the cockpit of a boat. So he didn`t plan out the power consumption. There were problems with the engine, the alternator. And one of these problems I noticed in Marina Del Rey. She had to stop.
BEHAR: But this whole --
CALOROSO: So he pushed her out for a sponsor deadline is what he did.
BEHAR: This whole point -- excuse me one minute. I don`t want to run out of time with you. This point about you wanting her to die, what was that? In other words, his accusation is you would have a better reality show if she died?
CALOROSO: Right. That`s what he`s saying. He`s saying like he pulled the plug, which is totally not true. I think he`s just scrambling. He`s totally out of line and he`s a liar. That`s absolutely not true when he pulled the plug.
BEHAR: Is this just another balloon boy kind of hoax to get a reality show?
CALOROSO: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Except that in this case, it was much more dangerous.
(CROSSTALK)
CALOROSO: I mean, I think the balloon -- right, this case, there was no one in the balloon. In this case, his daughter -- 16-year-old daughter is out there floating around, the poor thing. My only concern was Abby`s safety and also team Abby`s concern was Abby`s safety. And the fact that he sent her --
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you Ted, very much. I`m sorry, I had to end this. We ran out of time.
We`ll have an update on the case against Joran Van Der Sloot when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Police in Aruba and Peru are now joining forces in the Joran Van Der Sloot case. They are reportedly comparing notes in the Flores murder and the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
With me now from Lima, Peru to discuss the latest in the case is Jean Casarez, correspondent "In Session" on TruTV. Jean, is it likely that they`re going to have any new information about Holloway as a result of their cooperating together now?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, I guess time will tell. But let me tell you what happened today. Aruban authorities contacted via telephone Peruvian authorities. Carlos Morales was the judge they actually spoke with.
And here`s what was established. That there has to be a formal procedure done here, that Aruban officials have to formally ask to come here to get information, to give information, to be at least an auxiliary part of this investigation.
So they`re going to do that. They`re going to make a formal request. Once it is granted, you will then see according to Aruban authorities the lead prosecutor and the lead police investigator come right here to Lima to involve themselves in this case and the aspect of Natalee Holloway.
BEHAR: Ok. That`s interesting.
So could Van Der Sloot confess to the Holloway murder the do you think? Will he?
CASAREA: You know, as I was told by Lima legal scholars here, a confession in Peru -- and it has to be in Aruba, too -- you have to have corroborating evidence. So Joran Van Der Sloot could talk all day to authorities from Aruba, and he may do that when they arrive, but they`ve got to have some corroborating evidence.
How many stories, Joy, has he told about this case? So they`ll be looking to see if there`s anything that can solidify a confession or any information to then bring charges in Aruba.
BEHAR: Yes, he`s a big liar. Now, his attorney quit yesterday. And I understand it was because he was getting death threats. What do you know about that?
CASAREZ: He told us personally that he was getting death threats by telephone, by e-mail, by Facebook. In fact, when we talked to him last week, he was hiding out at a home in Lima. He didn`t even go with him when he was being transported and then presented to prosecutors last week.
He is off the case. There is a new private attorney; a lot of rumors about who this may be, but appears as though it may be someone very, very influential. But it is a private attorney, probably appointed, though, by the judge.
And from what we understand, his family, his mother, she`s still in Aruba. She`s not here yet, although she wanted to come. She hasn`t come. And that may have to do with the issue at hand, money.
BEHAR: Now, Van Der Sloot is being kept separate from other prisoners pending a psychological evaluation. What`s the timeline on that?
CASAREZ: Well, they were awaiting that the last we heard. He is in this protective cell next to an alleged hit man from Colombia. But it`s amazing the freedoms they have. They have a recreational living room area where they watch television. They have a weight room so he can go in there. There`s weights made out of -- sand is put in coca-cola bottles with broomsticks on either side and that`s the weight room.
But the goal, they tell us, is to assimilate him into the general population in time. They`ll look at his security. But now, Joy, he`s even getting the food that the people that work at the jail eat because they`re concerned about food poisoning, somebody could poison the food that he would eat.
BEHAR: Oh, well --
CASAREZ: He had oatmeal, Arroz con pollo -- he`s eating well.
BEHAR: Thank you Jean. Thanks Jean very much for the report.
Omarosa will tell me about her feud with fellow reality star, Bethenny Frankel, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Reality TV is big news this week. There`s the rumored show about the teenager who was lost at sea. And, of course, the feud between real housewife Bethenny Frankel and Omarosa from "THE APPRENTICE." If only we can get the ladies to fight on a boat in the middle of the ocean now that would be a ratings hit. Joining me are comedian and managing editor of bestweekever.tv, Michelle Collins. Actor Fred Willard, whose latest film "Youth In Revolt" comes out on Blue Ray and DVD today. And Omarosa star of the new series "DONALD J. TRUMP PRESENTS THE ULTIMATE MERGER." OK, Omarosa I`m going to your argument in a second, but I was wondering what you thought, any of you, about this case, the father basically says, OK, to a 16-year-old. Go sail around the world by yourself. And there`s some rumor that it might have been, you know, a reality show in the works.
FRED WILLARD, ACTOR, "YOUTH IN REVOLT": In a whole different world from me. My daughter turned 16. I was frantic that she was going to drive a car by herself.
BEHAR: I know.
WILLARD: So when you let your daughter drive -- sail around the world, it`s a different planet.
MICHELLE COLLINS, MANAGING EDITOR, BESTWEEKEVER.TV: Yes, I hope there are no like Bacardi breezers on board, any sort of like baby alcohol on board.
OMAROSA, REALITY TV STAR: I wonder where the reality rumors came from? Or is just -- has that been substantiated? That`s a reality show I`d watch.
BEHAR: I think it`s more than a rumor, I think it has a lot - well -
OMAROSA: That`s a reality show, I`d watch.
WILLARD: It would be a good reality show.
OMAROSA: Teenager out in the middle of the ocean.
WILLARD: Yes out on the see,
BEHAR: It cost about a million dollars to save her, you know? Should the parents have to pay restitution. I mean who`s picking that bill up?
COLLINS: I think actually that they should because I was reading that they sent her out there at the most dangerous weather time in the Indian Ocean. Like it is extremely big waves, very icy. They had to have known they were sending her into a dangerous path, you know what I mean.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: And they`re wealthy. They`re yacht owners. Get out of here, they should definitely pay.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Child abuse to me. To put a child in the middle of the ocean like that.
BEHAR: Would you put a child of yours on a reality show?
OMAROSA: You know what I have two nephews who live with us. And I certainly try to protect their privacy - and certainly not interested --
BEHAR: I guess if the kid`s really annoying, maybe then.
WILLARD: I said to myself, what would happen? Aren`t there going to be pirates? Might there be high waves.
BEHAR: Sharks.
WILLARD: Might there be wind that would blow the --
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLARD: It happened.
OMAROSA: Hey honey I swim with sharks all day.
BEHAR: OK real housewife Bethenny Frankel was on my other show last week, the subject of reality show villains came up. And Sherry, Sherry Shepherd, you know who she is, she compared Bethenny to Omarosa, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERRY SHEPERD: Are you using reality TV to get famous?
BETHENNY FRANKEL: I mean I think she is an interesting example because she used it to be infamous. I think Elizabeth is a better example for someone who has used her career. I have a real career. I have a brand, I have a very popular cocktail, I have two "New York Times" best sellers, I have my own show. I mean you know when I went on the show I wasn`t buying diamonds and getting facials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: And then Omarosa had a few words of her own for Bethenny.
OMAROSA: Bethenny was a waitress. And she`s saying that I didn`t have a real career. I worked in the White House for the president of the United States. I wasn`t serving cocktails in a smoky bar somewhere.
BEHAR: I know but you went back at her.
OMAROSA: Because she`s a twit. I mean she used to be my friend. That`s the worst part. She couldn`t afford taxi cab fare to come over and talk to me been, how do I extend my 15 minutes of fame. And now she has three shows and she`s calling herself the queen of reality, come on, Bethenny, she needs a reality check.
COLLINS: She has a nice career for herself.
BEHAR: She has.
OMAROSA: Good for her. But to say to me that I haven`t had a real career. First of all, I was on "THE APPRENTICE." The number one show on television, 28 million people. She was on "HOUSEWIVES." She was on some other show three people watched. Congratulations, "MARTHA STEWARD APPRENTICE" did not do as well as Donald Trump show and she thinks she has some superior position to me? Come on Bethenny.
BEHAR: Do you think -- Omarosa, let me take a devil`s advocate position here for a second. Do you think it was overkill to say that her husband is gay? Do you know --
OMAROSA: From an address that I saw from him, you might think he`s gay.
BEHAR: You`re kidding now, right? You`re kidding right?
OMAROSA: Bethenny is enough man for him. So if that`s his appetite, he`s well served.
BEHAR: But isn`t it overkill to say she had a tummy tuck --
OMAROSA: Well let me ask you Joy, what pregnant woman do you know loses 45 pounds in two weeks.
BEHAR: Twenty-nine in a month.
OMAROSA: And you had her on the show questioning how much weight she lost.
BEHAR: I did. I did.
OMAROSA: And Bethenny knows she has a good plastic surgeon. That`s why she looks so good in the photo shoot.
BEHAR: What do you make of this, Fred?
WILLARD: I`m stuck between the fact that her husband is gay and she`s pregnant. Something must have been working properly.
BEHAR: There must have been a stint there -
COLLINS: First of all, if you don`t want to marry a gay man, move out of New York. If you live here, chances are the guy you`re going to marry is gay.
OMAROSA: Absolutely.
COLLINS: But here`s the thing, thing is, you know, I don`t know, for some reason marrying a gay guy, losing 29 pounds in 30 days, you know in Hollywood, we call that noon. To me that`s not noon, everybody does that stuff all the time.
OMAROSA: But she says she`s doing this naturally, I think that she`s being very, very false in her pretensions. She could have easily said Omarosa`s doing her thing, I`m doing mine, instead she attacks me. So - I went back at her.
BEHAR: But you go right back at her. Right.
OMAROSA: I took notes from the Donald Trump school of feuds. I don`t play fair.
BEHAR: Donald Trump does not suffer fools gladly, I`ll say that. You don`t get into a fight with him.
COLLINS: Uh-uh.
BEHAR: Or with you apparently.
OMAROSA: Or me.
BEHAR: Oh, all right but what do you take on the "REAL HOUSEWIVES" what do you think about all the bickering they`re always doing?
COLLINS: My favorite show.
BEHAR: It`s your favorite? Oh yes?
COLLINS: First of all, they all have rabies. I mean technically they are rabid. I would not be surprised if -- and that`s why it`s so fun to watch.
OMAROSA: And they call me mean.
COLLINS: You know, I think they would all admit that they have rabies. And I don`t think that`s a big statement. But - and 90 percent of them are dumber than dirt. I love it. I watch this show. It is my favorite show. I actually like Bethenny, just to be fair. But I watch the show. I feel smart. I feel poor. But that`s -- I love it. I drink water. I just have the best time watching it.
BEHAR: Have you ever seen the show, Fred?
WILLARD: I`ve seen it, yes, parts of it. I`m most amazed at the reality shows, how quick are to fight and to anger. And the shows also to fall in love. The men fall in love with women.
OMAROSA: I fell in love with you in the green room.
WILLARD: Yes but that`s because I turned on my charm. But on TV, they`re really upset when like if they`re not chosen to be --
BEHAR: Well they get very bitchy with each other, I think. I`ve said this before, but the unconscious mind is right there. It`s like, I hate you, you`re stupid. It just comes right out. Kind of like interesting television, but it kind of lowered the level of discourse.
WILLARD: It probably encouraged, too, the cameras up.
OMAROSA: But you know what, people say -
COLLINS: We`ve already talked too much about it, the word discourse comes up --
BEHAR: How about unconscious mind.
COLLINS: I can`t - I don`t know what you are talking about.
BEHAR: OK let`s do this story. This you might like this, Fred, a little more maybe because you know these people. The FBI has released files that say the three Kennedy brothers held sex orgies at a New York hotel in the `60s and there were embarrassing details. One of the things that they say is that Pat Lawford, the Kennedy sister, was at these orgies. Who has an orgy with a sister in the room? I mean talk about a buzz kill. Do these -- you know about this?
WILLARD: I have heard about it, yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLARD: And the three brothers in an orgy. Kind of awkward, isn`t it, to be with other guys at an orgy. I could see being with women. And with my luck, I would have been in the room next door at the hotel 2:00 in the morning. Pounding on the wall, hold it down. Bobby! I mean it`s the Kennedys. I know, but I`m trying to get some sleep.
BEHAR: No one who lives through that is surprised particularly by this.
WILLARD: Yes.
BEHAR: Because we didn`t know about it at the time, but now we know what went on. I mean it was unbelievable.
COLLINS: Yes the FBI files are no doubt files, like a big shock now that the FBI is releasing it? I also think it`s funny that Sammy Davis Jr. was supposedly there but he turned a blind eye to it. That`s a great joke. That`s a great joke.
BEHAR: That`s a good joke.
OMAROSA: I`m waiting for the sex tape. Everybody has a sex tape even if you`re dead. So - I`m waiting for the sex tape.
BEHAR: But Marilyn Monroe and the sister were the only women there with all these guys? I don`t get that part at all. I don`t even believe it. I don`t believe that the sister was there. I believe Marilyn was there.
WILLARD: Just the two women at a sex orgy?
BEHAR: Yes and a whole bunch of -- and they`re brothers.
COLLINS: I mean it`s the Kennedys, though. If anybody could do this, is it not going to be the Kennedys?
BEHAR: That is the craziest -
COLLINS: That`s why we elected them because they have orgies with each other.
BEHAR: Could you ever see anything like this happening today?
WILLARD: Absolutely. They were on the cutting edge, they were in the --
BEHAR: Do you have a final word for Bethenny before we wrap?
OMAROSA: Bethenny, you`re a twit. Get a life.
BEHAR: So you don`t want to say, let`s be friends or anything?
OMAROSA: No she`s got her hands full with her husband.
BEHAR: OK thanks, guys. I tried. Be sure to catch the famous Omarosa on "DONALD J. TRUMP PRESENTS THE ULTIMATE MERGER" premiering Thursday night on TV1. And be on the lookout for Fred`s new book, "Fred Willard`s Magnificent Movie Trivia." Up next -
WILLARD: We were supposed to talk about that.
BEHAR: Up next, 80`s icon Pat Benatar.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAT BENATAR, SINGER: Ride rather put another notch in my lipstick case you better make sure you put me in my place, hit me with your best shot, come on, hit me with your best shot hit me with your best shot, fire away
BEHAR: For more than 30 years Pat Benatar has been one of the most iconic women in rock `n` roll, paving the way for many who followed her. And in her memoir "Between A Heart And A Rock Place," I love that title, she talks about breaking into the rock `n` roll boys club and everything both good and bad that came with it. Welcome to the show, Pat Benatar. So great to have you here.
BENATAR: I`m glad to be here.
BEHAR: We`re all big fans of yours.
BENATAR: Thanks.
BEHAR: I was reading that you were a working class girl from Long Island.
BENATAR: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: I`m a working class girl from Brooklyn.
BENATAR: That`s right.
BEHAR: And you were classically trained.
BENATAR: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: As a singer.
BENATAR: Yes. Eight years.
BEHAR: Mm-hmm. And you had a shot to audition at Juilliard and you did not take it.
BENATAR: No.
BEHAR: Talk about "Hit Me With Your Best Shot."
BENATAR: Yes, yes, you know, I choked at the end. I choked. And my boyfriend at the time who I went on to marry when I was very young, got drafted. And I panicked, and I thought he was going to go to Vietnam and die. So I just -- my choir teacher, Georgia, practically threw herself off the building, the high school roof. And yes, because we`d been planning it for so long.
BEHAR: So you get married instead?
BENATAR: I did.
BEHAR: Why couldn`t you audition and be married?
BENATAR: Because he was leaving. He was going away and I wanted to go. He went -- I don`t know, Massachusetts.
BEHAR: So you followed your husband, as we all did in those days. Idiots that we were.
BENATAR: Yes.
BEHAR: You know --
BENATAR: I don`t know what I was thinking.
BEHAR: We all did that. I was just talking about this today. Girls today are like really?
BENATAR: Oh my daughters, I have a 25-year-old, 16-year-old. The oldest one is like, I`m so never getting married.
BEHAR: Well it looks like a death sentence. And his name was Dennis Benatar.
BENATAR: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: And how long did you -- then you got divorced?
BENATAR: Yes.
BEHAR: How long did you last?
BENATAR: Well we were married for eight years, but we split up literally every year. I`d tell the story in the book that when I met spider, when I finally met spider, that`s it. We`re done. Then I absolutely did it.
BEHAR: So Spider was an overlap.
BENATAR: He was an overlap. But we were separated one more time, that kind of thing.
BEHAR: But you kept Benatar`s name because your name is -- Andrievski.
BENATAR: Andrievski, yes, I had already signed my record deal as Pat Benatar.
BEHAR: What - Pat Benatar is a great name.
BENATAR: Yes.
BEHAR: I love it. So he was valuable in that way?
BENATAR: Yes. And it was penance, penance. He gets to hear it every day.
BEHAR: The other thing I was reading about you is that you as a bank teller at one point.
BENATAR: I did.
BENATAR: I had lots of points, I did. Because I had to make money. Even when I was at catch a rising star, I still worked at the Chase Manhattan Bank on 42nd street.
BEHAR: Really?
BENATAR: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: And that you were inspired as when you were a bank teller by Liza Minnelli. Did she come into the bank or something?
BENATAR: No, I was living in Richmond. We were there in Richmond, Virginia. And I wasn`t singing. It has been like a year and a half. No singing. You imagine, I studied for eight years, and then all of a sudden no singing. So I had to get a job, I had to do something. And I went to Virginia Commonwealth University part time. Then I got a job in the bank. I didn`t know how to do anything. I was a student. You know so they had this thing where they were training tellers and they were training them on a new system. And I tell the story in the book about how I went in there and all these blue-haired ladies, they were darlings. They were these sweet little Southern ladies and I don`t know why I have to learn this new one. It`s perfectly good the way it is. You know but I was from New York and they let me do it because I was 20 years old and I didn`t know how to do anything. So I became a bank teller. My friends who worked in the bank wanted to go see Liza Minnelli concert.
BEHAR: Ah ha.
BENATAR: And I went with them.
BEHAR: And that did it.
BENATAR: I was just in the Richmond Coliseum and I was looking around thinking I can do this. I can do this, I know it. And I quit my job and I started looking for gigs in Virginia. And it just started from there --
BEHAR: But how did you end up at Catch A Rising Star, which was a comedy club in New York at the time -
BENATAR: That`s right -
BEHAR: For those of you who don`t remember.
BENATAR: Because I had read in the Richmond times dispatch, they did an article about this new genre of clubs, these open mike nights and you could go up there. I have to go back to New York. I was actually doing really well in Virginia. I was in a band called Coxswain`s Army. And they were regionally pretty like - big and we had done a PBS special. And I`m thinking this is great. But I got to get out of here. I got to go back to New York. So I was separated again, you know. And I just quit the band, and everyone was flipping out. I went to Catch because I read about it in the paper.
BEHAR: Right and you just --
BENATAR: And I went online. I stood in line like everybody else. I was number 29.
BEHAR: Because there were singers when I was there also.
BENATAR: Yes but we were filler. You know that. We were there to fill in between. And laugh at the jokes and fill in.
BEHAR: I know, but the singers were good down there. They had a band at that time. It was a great time in New York.
BENATAR: Oh please, so much fun, one of the best times of my life, ever.
BEHAR: I miss it a lot. Believe me. It`s not the same now, it just isn`t. But then you signed with a recd company in 1979.
BENATAR: Right.
BEHAR: And you met your husband.
BENATAR: I did.
BEHAR: Neil "Spider" Giraldo. And that was the first meeting between the two of you, right?
BENATAR: Yes he came in -- Mike Chapman he was going to produce part of the record, we had been working on Rick Derringer`s record and Spider --
BEHAR: Rock `n` roll Hoochy Koo.
BENATAR: Yes and Spider was in a band and he, and Spider was 22 and he was a baby. And I told Mike, you know I got this thing that I had. I wanted to be like Robert Plant and Jimmy Page and Keith and Mick. I got this kid. He`s 22 years old. I think he`s exactly what you`re looking for. I`m going to send him down. So he sent him down. And he walked in the door and I was with Newman. And we were standing there --
BEHAR: Rick Newman from Catch A Rising Star.
BENATAR: Rick -- and he was my manager then.
BEHAR: Who happens to be sitting here.
BENATAR: He`s sitting here right now.
BEHAR: In the room.
BENATAR: Along with Spider. And Spider walked in. And I was trying to be like uber cool. And he walked in and I pretty much fell on the ground. What is wrong with you? I was like -- I saw the father of my children. I knew the moment I saw him. Was just like getting hit with a two by four.
BEHAR: Wow, wow. He must have been something.
BENATAR: Ooh, honey. He still is.
BEHAR: But he was dating -- maybe we`ll have to put him on camera soon. So the women can take a look at him. But he was dating Linda Blair when you first met. When he told you that he thought Blair was cheating on him. Did your head spin?
BENATAR: No, but I wanted to spin hers. Give him to me. I love him. You know? But it took a little bit of time with it. And it all worked out for the best. Thirty one years and two children later, here we are.
BEHAR: Wow and you`ve been together a lot. You work together, you tour together. You are making music together, you sleep together. Don`t you ever get sick of him?
BENATAR: No. He does drive me crazy, but I never get sick of him.
BEHAR: You never get sick of him. We`ll be back in a minute with more with the lovely Pat Benatar.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENATAR: What you trying to do to my heart you go around telling lies and now you want to compromise what you trying to do to my heart, you better run you better hide you better leave from my side yeah --
BEHAR: That was 1981 when a young female rocker named Pat Benatar made history becoming the first woman to ever appear on MTV. That`s right.
BENATAR: Crazy.
BEHAR: That`s right and she`s back here with me. That video we just showed was the second video the air on the first day of MTV.
BENATAR: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: Did you have any idea that day how big MTV was going to be?
BENATAR: No, we were all sitting there. We were in Oklahoma waiting to do a festival called rock-lahoma. And we were just sitting there in a hotel room, you know, some crappy little dumpy hotel, somewhere in Oklahoma.
BEHAR: Yes.
BENATAR: And it was, the joke was that the hotel we were in was one of the five places that actually signed up for MTV that day.
BEHAR: Really?
BENATAR: So it came on. Newman called me and said, you know, Spider and I were sitting there. And he said, it`s going to be on. They`re going to air it for the first time today.
BEHAR: That`s exciting.
BENATAR: And we just sat there and just jaws dropped. Because they only had like eight. And they played them 24 hrs a day. There was no filler in between. And in a week, our lives -- everyone`s life changed. It just changed.
BEHAR: A lot of people say that MTV changed the music industry.
BENATAR: It did, absolutely.
BEHAR: Because it became such a visual medium all of a sudden.
BENATAR: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You know people like Ella Fitzgerald would never be a star with MTV, people from that period -
BENATAR: Right, right.
BEHAR: Because they just weren`t hot enough.
BENATAR: Right, it just changed everything.
BEHAR: But you were. You were hot enough. And so I think it helped you. But you had talent and you looked great.
BENATAR: Thanks.
BEHAR: But nowadays, you know, like Lady Gaga and even Madonna, who really changed a lot of the way we see music, those women seem to be upping the ante constantly. Gaga is constantly in some kind of wacky outfit. Their videos are considered blasphemous by some groups.
BENATAR: Right, right, very provocative. Very.
BEHAR: Do you think you could function in this particular atmosphere now if you were just starting?
BENATAR: No, no, that was always there. Maybe it wasn`t quite as extreme, but there were always extreme people. I mean think about Rick James and all the crazy stuff he did and everything.
BEHAR: Yes.
BENATAR: So it was always there and I would have never been able to do that and I wouldn`t be able to do it today either.
BEHAR: It wasn`t your thing.
BENATAR: No it`s too far for me. You know I kind of like to straddle the middle, I`m kind of there.
BEHAR: I read this thing that you wrote, I actually read in your book, you write that the head of your record company at Chrysalis. Is that how you say that?
BENATAR: Chrysalis.
BEHAR: This guy said to you, quote, "I hope you don`t think that people actually coming to your concerts to hear you sing."
BENATAR: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: What was that about? Sexism?
BENATAR: We were arguing -- oh, yes. Sexism was rampant the whole time. But we were arguing because I had wanted to lighten up my image a little bit, let go of it. And they were holding on really tightly. Because you know they had a marketing tool that was foolproof. It was working beautifully. They couldn`t understand why on earth I would want to change it now that we had it. I just wanted to back up a little. It was getting boring. You know I invented it but then it got boring and I wanted to do something else.
BEHAR: Yes.
BENATAR: So we were arguing over the new record cover. And he told me if they didn`t reshoot it, they would shelf the record. That`s when he said that, you don`t think they`re actually coming to hear you sing.
BEHAR: Well you know -
BENATAR: It was part of a long laundry list of the things that happened during that era. You know, how people treated women still.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, you know, I`m so thrilled that you`re still working and that you`re still great, you still love to sing and you`ll be touring.
BENATAR: Yes.
BEHAR: And I`m so happy to have you on the show. Good luck with your book.
BENATAR: And congratulations to you, sister.
BEHAR: Thank you. OK the book is called "Between A Heart And A Rock Place." and it`s out today. Good night, everybody.
END
