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Joy Behar Page
Joran Van Der Sloot Claims he was Framed; Interview with Cyndi Lauper; BP`s Devastation on the Gulf of Mexico;
Aired June 21, 2010 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, Joran van der Sloot now says he was framed, and in his mother`s opinion, he has mental health problems. Want a second opinion? Go learn to dig a tunnel with a toothbrush.
(LAUGHTER)
Then the problem in the gulf was caused by deregulation. You know, I can`t wait for Republicans to deregulate nuclear energy. I always wanted to see an entire state glow in the dark. Didn`t you?
And long before Aguilera and Gaga it will the charts, `80s icon Cyndi Lauper strutted around in a neon haze of hair products. The look is toned down, but not the talent. We`ll talk about her latest album. That and more, right now.
Joran van der Sloot made a court appearance today and told a judge that there had been a violation of his rights. In addition, he told a Dutch newspaper that the police tricked and coerced him into making his confession. Right. It`s their fault. What`s next? A low speed chase in a white Ford Bronco?
Here now with the latest from Peru is Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV.
Hey, Jean, what happened at the van der Sloot hearing today?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, the judge was expecting a formal statement because according to Peruvian law, that`s what you do. Well, not in this case. The defendant, Joran van der Sloot, only said, "My rights have been violated."
Now, Joy, it all happened right behind me. This is the entrance to Castro Castro. And you walk a long ways back. But normally the defendant goes to the Justice Palace in Lima, but because of the high security concerns, the judge came here. It all took place in a courtroom on the property of the prison.
BEHAR: Yes. And probably to prevent the media circus that would ensue also, right?
CASAREZ: Well, yeah. There was one right here, but it just got vehicles going in and out and people saying, "No comment," but there was a press release later today of what had happened. We also spoke with Altez himself. He`s waiting for the habeas corpus investigation. That should come on Wednesday.
And Jane (SIC), what they`re arguing there is that there has been a violation of his rights to even detain him and they want him to be released from Castro Castro.
BEHAR: Ah-ha. To go to that worse prison, huh? OK.
CASAREZ: No, to be free, to be walking the street, to be free.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. Oh, I`m misunderstanding you. OK, his lawyer, Maximo Altez, quit last week, but he`s now back on the case. That`s interesting. I mean, the guy was scared to be his lawyer, and now he`s back? What happened?
CASAREZ: Yeah, that`s right. You know, he told us he wanted off the case. He was off the case. He said he`d been getting threats. And he still is not doing interviews. You don`t see any interviews with him. He was still the attorney of record, though, late last week and he`s been there today standing by van der Sloot`s side.
BEHAR: Well now, what about this van der Sloot saying he was tricked into confessing? How was he tricked? Is there any evidence of that or anything at all to confirm that?
CASAREZ: No evidence that we have because we have the transcript of the interrogation that led to the confession. There`s nothing in that at all. And remember, you said it right at the start of the show, it`s van der Sloot talking, it`s not police, it`s not the defense attorney, it`s him saying that he was tricked.
BEHAR: Right. Now, CNN has obtained some of the photos of the crime scene today. Explain to me what they are and how they`ll be used.
CASAREZ: Well, let me tell you why it`s so important. Remember van der Sloot said in his confession that he took his shirt and he cleaned the floor because there was so much blood. Well, you look at that shirt, Joy. Is there a floor that was cleaned on the shirt or is it blood spatter showing that you actually was killing someone and the blood spattered on to the shirt you were wearing?
BEHAR: Right, but why are they releasing these photos? Why would that do that now? Doesn`t that taint the jury?
CASAREZ: Well you know, there`s no jury. There`s no jury in Peru. It`s going to be a three-judge panel and they will look at the facts, they will look at the evidence. And things here, we are able to get information. Things are not release on the record, but we are able to get information.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. They don`t have a jury system there, so these three judges are going to decide the fate of this guy.
CASAREZ: That`s right. And you know what? It doesn`t have to be unanimous. It can be two out of three can say that he is to be found guilty.
BEHAR: Wow. That is a tough system. Thanks very much, Jean, for the update.
OK. Now I want to turn to my panel. CNN legal analyst, Lisa Bloom, and prosecutor and author of "My Privates are Private," Stacey Honowitz.
OK, you just heard the report from Jean, ladies. What do you make of the fact that van der Sloot says that he was coerced into confessing?
Lisa, you want to start?
LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there`s only one thing that changed between his detailed confession -- remember, it`s not just a confession, he gives all of the details of how and why and where he killed her. Only one thing changed between that and his recantation, and that is he got a defense attorney and the defense attorney obviously said to him, we`ve got to get out from under this confession. What the heck did you do? Why did you talk to the police? We`ve got to turn it around. And so now he recants. I don`t think the Peruvian judges are going to buy it and certainly the public does not buy it.
BEHAR: But, he`s saying that he was tricked and the Peruvian police told him that if he signed the papers that he would be transferred to the Netherlands where obviously they would be much more lenient on him there? So, is that possible to have happened, do you think, or is he making this up?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: No.
BLOOM: Yeah...
HONOWITZ: No.
BEHAR: Go ahead Stacey.
HONOWITZ: You know, Joy, in every murder case, even here in the states, if you give a full blown confession and there`s other evidence, there`s nothing left to do but to say my rights were violated, I was coerced, I didn`t know what was going on, I was undue influence, they made promises to me. And that`s exactly what his argument is now.
And so he`s got try to do something to get himself extricated from this situation. There has to be, like you said in the beginning of the show, you asked Jean Casarez, is there evidence? No. We have him speaking these words, or through the words of a defense attorney.
BEHAR: Well, he also said, he said, "In my blind panic, I signed everything but never knew what was written on them." Were they in Spanish? Maybe the papers were in Spanish. He is in Peru.
BLOOM: You know what, Joy, here`s the thing. This is a murder investigation. It`s not a tea party. All right? He`s a grown man. He`s of legal age. He should not have signed something if he didn`t understand it and...
BEHAR: Well, why did he? Why did he, do you think?
BLOOM: ...if they (INAUDIBLE) something and if they didn`t come forward, guess what, it`s the same thing that happens in the U.S. Police can and do lie to people when they`re being interrogated. We can`t lie to the police, but they can lie to us. And there`s a reason for that, because they`re trying to catch a murder. And they`re trying to get a dangerous criminal and keep him off the streets. So, they can say they have evidence they don`t have. They can make promises and they don`t come true with it because the theory is if you`re innocent, you don`t confess to a brutal murder like this.
BEHAR: But, why sign the papers if he didn`t understand what he was signing? Well, he may be possibly a murderer but he`s not stupid. And anybody...
HONOWITZ: It`s my opinion, Joy, is just that we`ve heard about him for so long with the Natalee Holloway case, the different statements that he gave, he`s not a credible guy. But the bottom line is his thinking might have been maybe if I sign these and I confess to this crime, maybe I can try to work a deal on the Holloway case. I mean, you just never know, with a guy like this, that really has no credibility, why he would go forward and sign it. So, I don`t know if he was scared, whatever it was, you know, but they`re going to have to wait and see. There`s really, at this juncture, no evidence to show that he was tricked in any way.
BEHAR: And anyway, even if the confession was coerced, they have enough evidence to convict him, a lot of forensic evidence, right, Lisa?
BLOOM: Yes, that`s the key. And they have blood evidence in the room, they have the remains of this poor woman. They know how she was killed, they know where and when she was killed. So, I think they have enough without it. They have the videotape of the two of them going into the room. And they have him fleeing afterwards, which is key, because that`s consciousness of guilt.
BEHAR: I see.
HONOWITZ: And the best evidence in all of this, quite frankly, is with that videotape. At one point he tried to say that two robbers came in afterwards. You have the videotape that was playing in real-time and we saw that he left and nobody else came into the room.
BEHAR: I know. Now, given all this information that we`re now talking about, both of you, if you were his lawyer, a defense lawyer, what would you advise him?
HONOWITZ: Get friendly with the meanest, baddest guy in the prison and be his friend for a very long time. That`s my suggestion.
BLOOM: No, I think that he has to have some kind of an insanity defense or diminished capacity. I think that`s what he`s working on now. His mother is now saying to the press that he`s got a mental disorder. That will get him down to a sentence in Peru of about three to six years, it won`t exonerate him completely. Show that he was just out of his mind, he flew into a rage, he didn`t know what would happen. That would help him in Peru just as it would help him here in the U.S.
BEHAR: Wait a second...
HONOWITZ: I think the mother`s trying to say that because of -- he was grief stricken, basically, and he never recovered from the death of his father and that`s what set him in this motion.
BEHAR: Butt Lisa, did you say that if he does the insanity plea he`ll get three to six years, that`s all?
BLOOM: It`s not exactly an insanity defense, it`s a diminished capacity defense, that he flew into a rage, that he had an altercation with her. One of his stories is that she hit him first and then he flew into a rage.
HONOWITZ: Under Peruvian law it`s called like an emotionally violent crime. The first crime, of course, you know, the main crime, the premeditation, the max he could get is 35 years. If they try to go forward on this emotional violent crime, then Lisa`s right, it`s substantially less than the 35 years.
BEHAR: Wow, see now I`m hearing that the Peruvian system is really strict and tough and the jails are horrific. So if he`s only going to get three to six there, what would he get here? One year? Six months?
HONOWITZ: Well, listen, for manslaughter in the U.S., there are people who get one year, two years, six years. You know, homicide is not the same as murder. Murder is killing with premeditation, in cold blood. In the U.S. you generally get life in prison or the death penalty for that. But every state has manslaughter. And here in the U.S., if you can show that you were provoked, that you were emotionally disturbed at the time, you get a greatly reduced sentence.
BEHAR: Do you think that -- is that going to wash, really, is that going to wash, I mean, allegedly he killed a Peruvian girl whose father`s very, very wealthy and powerful in Peru? Are they going to let him off so easily even if he does pull that? I don`t know.
HONOWITZ: I don`t know. I mean, then you`re saying the politics gets tossed into it. And certainly we always hear that politics can get tossed into it. In this case, though, on premeditation just like here you have to show aggravating factors. And what they`re going to try to do is show that it was unusually cruel and that`s based on the crime scene investigation where evidently her body was just left mangled, so that`s really what they`re seeking in this case.
BEHAR: And then the Holloway case doesn`t enter into this at all? The Holloway case.
BLOOM: We`ve also heard that he attacked her with a baseball bat. I mean, if you`re going to a poker tournament, why would you bring a baseball bat? That could be evidence of premeditation that he`s planning on attacking somebody, if not her.
BEHAR: I see. But, what about the Natalee Holloway case? There`s nothing involved here?
HONOWITZ: There`s no role.
BEHAR: They have no...
HONOWITZ: It won`t play any role in that case because it`s not a filed case, it`s not pending and so there`s no room for it in this case.
BEHAR: So, the Holloway family never gets any satisfaction in this whole thing at all, except that he goes to jail for three to six in Peru? That really sucks.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Well, let`s not jump to conclusion that he`s getting three to six. I mean, that`s just a possibility. But if the Peruvian and the Aruban authorities work together to try to get him to talk about what happened to Natalee Holloway, we could get something out of him, but so far we`re not seeing that.
BEHAR: OK, thanks very much, guys. When we come back, we`ll discuss van der Sloot`s mental state and why his own mother says she cannot embrace him. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, Cyndi Lauper stops by to talk about her latest record, her recent gig on "Celebrity Apprentice" and the newest controversy surrounding Lady Gaga, and the latest on the crisis in the gulf. "New York Times" columnist Frank Rich tells Joy who he thinks needs to be fired immediately. Now, back to Joy.
BEHAR: Joran van der Sloot`s mother has spoken out publicly for the first time since her son`s arrest for the murder of Stephany Flores. She says that her son is mentally sick. Really? You think?
(LAUGHTER)
Let`s ask the experts, clinical psychologist, Jeff Gardere, and criminologist, Casey Jordan. OK, it`s not funny, I just can`t speak. Let me break down the interview that the mother gave, OK, to the Dutch newspaper the "Telegraaf." She says that her son`s lied so much that, "we became desperate," she says, and that he told her, "Mom, I sometimes don`t know any more if something is a lie or the truth." Is that definition of a psychopath, that you don`t know the difference between truth and falsehoods?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, at the minimum, sociopathic. All right...
BEHAR: What`s the difference? Somebody has to explain this to me.
JORDAN: Well, Jeff and I will work on this together. You`ve got to understand it`s kind of trajectory, a lot of the symptoms are exactly the same, but your sociopath is going to be a lot less organized and there`s something about them you don`t like usually when you meet them, even immediately. It`s a personality disorder. Your psychopath is more organized, they go to a great deal of effort to hide that facade of them.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Like ted Bundy was a psychopath.
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Was a psychopath. And the psychopaths usually are involved in crimes.
JORDAN: Yes.
GARDERE: They want to maim, they want to hurt, they want to kill. They`re focused on destroying other people. Whereas the sociopath maybe someone who lies and manipulates and can be elected senator or something.
JORDAN: Right, right, but you can pass from one into the other.
BEHAR: That`s encouraging. You can -- say that again.
JORDAN: You can pass, you can be a sociopath who actually evolves into a psychopath as you get more organized and practiced and then get the charisma up. It`s possible that he`s, in the last five years, evolved into a psychopath.
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: That`s what we believe.
BEHAR: Organized has been overrated in my -- you know, organized people...
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: Organized killers...
JORDAN: But, he didn`t have it together in the last crime that he`s accused of, so...
GARDERE: Well, and that`s basically what we saw, Joy, with van der Sloot, what he was doing involved perhaps with Holloway, of course, involved with Flores and seemed to be like one accident after another, you know, he just couldn`t help himself, that`s what a lot of people think may have happened. Whereas, the psychopath chooses the victims and says, this is what I`m going to do. But we do feel he`s graduated from sociopath to psychopath because for all we know, he could have chosen Flores and we see that there are so many similarities between Holloway and Flores.
BEHAR: Yeah, right. OK. Now, in an interview, the mother also said that she does not believe her son killed Natalee Holloway, but she said, "If he killed Stephany, he`ll have to pay the price." Now, why would...
GARDERE: He`s not such a bad boy, is he?
BEHAR: Yeah. Why would the mother say that? I mean, is she trying to plot an insanity plea like we heard before?
GARDERE: If she is, it`s not going to work, because for that insanity plea to be a strong one, you have to look at someone who`s delusional, who has audio visual hallucinations, who`s more of a schizophrenic. This guy is more of a personality disorder. So, there may be the mitigating circumstance as to why he killed, but certainly it doesn`t step up to a defense, an insanity defense.
BEHAR: Oh, I see, so he may not be able to pull that in Peru?
GARDERE: He may try, but it`s not going to work.
JORDAN: Yeah, it won`t work. But mostly, joy, I think she does it in the interest of self-preservation. She was married to an attorney, a judge, she thinks like this: And there is no evidence, we have no body, no crime. Her husband was famous for saying that, "no body, no crime." So, if he confesses to it, and the body is recovered, she will believe it, she won`t be in denial forever.
BEHAR: But he did confess it, didn`t he?
JORDAN: Not to Natalee, he`s playing let`s make a deal with Natalee so he can get out of Peru and go back to Aruba which is where he`d much rather be, right now.
GARDERE: And in a bizarre way perhaps she says to herself, well, I`m not so sure about Holloway. I think I know a little bit more about the Flores situation, so maybe he did that. And so that`s a way of trying to protect him, but it`s just so bizarre. You talk about that maternal instinct that goes into overdrive to the point of being totally inappropriate. There`s no way that you can defend this guy.
And I believe it`s been a major heartache for the family, which is why his father died. He died of a heart attack. I think he died of a broken heart knowing that they were raising this monster in their home and they just couldn`t control him.
BEHAR: Well, you know, even if he`s not mentally ill legally, he`s still a nut case, the guy.
GARDERE: He`s a severe personality disorder who has rage issues, hates women...
BEHAR: So, why did it take so long? Five years between - from Holloway until now, he never got any kind of treatment. The mother says he disappeared because he was supposed to go to the Netherlands for treatment and then he disappeared because he was like what, racing around in a desperate state?
JORDAN: Right, I give Anita lot of credit. I mean, if she`s been in denial, it really is breaking down. She`s beginning to see things much more clearly now. And I have to say, I admire the fact that she says, "We knew he was sick, we were trying to get him help. We should never have sent him to college. We were trying to get him into an institution, and then he ran off to Thailand and started a business." I mean, she can`t control him at this age.
GARDERE: And that`s the whole nature of this thing, when you have a child who may be a killer, that you will do anything to save them and just throw any kind of common sense to the wind.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know if this is going to work, the way she`s doing it.
GARDERE: I don`t think so, either.
JORDAN: No.
BEHAR: OK, thanks very much to both of you.
A quick note, be sure to tune in tomorrow night when I speak to Gary Coleman`s parents` about their son`s tragic death and the fight over his estate.
Up next, Cyndi Lauper joins me, so stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Pop icon and gay rights activist, Cyndi Lauper has sold over 25 million albums worldwide And has a pair of Grammy awards to show for it. Her new album "Memphis Blues" hits stores tomorrow, which is also her birthday. With me now is the lovely and talented, Cyndi Lauper.
Happy birthday.
LAUPER: Yeah! Happy birth -- yes. And you know, for astrologists, they think that you know, something with the sun thing going on, it`s on your sun or whatever. I don`t know what that means.
BEHAR: What are you going to for your birthday?
LAUPER: I`m working.
BEHAR: You`re working?
LAUPER: I`m at J&R Music signing and I`m doing...
BEHAR: Signing your album.
LAUPER: And doing "Howard Stern" in the morning with Johnny. Johnny Lang`s coming. I`m singing with Johnny.
BEHAR: Wow, that`s pretty cool. Now you know, you`re a pop star and your last CD was a dance album.
LAUPER: Yeah.
BEHAR: Now, you have a blues album. You keep changing it up, huh?
LAUPER: Well, the blues is the basis of all of it anyway. So it`s like...
BEHAR: Right.
LAUPER: Like going home, back to basics. And you know, I was on the "Apprentice," I was telling you before that I lost my voice speaking. Actually, my teacher`s probably watching me. Make sure shoulders, yawn a bit, OK.
BEHAR: Why did you lose your voice?
LAUPER: I don`t -- apparently I don`t know how to speak.
BEHAR: Were you yelling at somebody?
LAUPER: No, I hold my breath. I don`t have enough -- I don`t, you know, when you...
BEHAR: No breath control.
LAUPER: Talk past your air.
BEHAR: What if you get pregnant?
LAUPER: You see? I thought I had big breaths.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, you know, you`ve said that this album -- I want to talk about your album for this segment because it`s interesting because "Memphis Blues," you`re saying it`s the right album for the right times. What do you mean by that?
LAUPER: Because America is singing the blues. Because when I was done with the "Apprentice" thing and by the time I could talk again -- and, I`m sorry, speak. Excuse my mouth. OK, but I looked around me, and you know, poor New Orleans, they`re not going to -- you know, come on. So, I found I was listening to this music and the best part of blues is it`s uplifting.
BEHAR: Yes.
LAUPER: And you know, they wrote in code. And this was an oppressed people who wrote uplifting things about their misery. And they wrote it in a way that by the time you`re done with the song, you feel better.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s a good idea, isn`t it?
LAUPER: Well, I think they`re awesome. So, I went to the civil rights museum when I went to Memphis. And I relived my childhood a little bit looking at everything. Because I was a kid then thinking I`m on the wrong side and the white people are crazy. You know, because...
BEHAR: Is that what you thought?
LAUPER: Well, yeah. I couldn`t understand. Because you know, when you turn on the radio and the best stuff is from the African-American people.
BEHAR: That`s true.
LAUPER: I`m listening to that going, yeah. And then they got a problem with then. Then, they go to the beach. Why are you going to the beach? Because they want their skin to be really dark. Now, the people whose skin is naturally dark, they got a problem with those people.
BEHAR: It`s too confusing for white people, isn`t it?
LAUPER: I was scared.
BEHAR: I know, Cyndi, I am, too. But, hang on for a minute, because we`re come back in just a minute with more of Cyndi.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Cyndi Lauper`s got a new CD and believe it or not it`s a blues album called, "Memphis Blues." She went from "Girl Just want to have Fun" to "Shattered Dreams." Is she eager to show off her versatility or is the Prozac just not working - Cyndi.
LAUPER: All right. No, I can`t take the Prozac.
BEHAR: No, no, no.
LAUPER: I can`t stand still that long.
BEHAR: To take the pill?
LAUPER: Well yeah, that, too.
BEHAR: It doesn`t make you a zombie. It just reorganizes your brain in some way, that`s all.
LAUPER: But what would it do if it was reorganized? I wouldn`t be able to write or...
BEHAR: You might be able to write, but I don`t know. I`m not an expert on any of that. Now, you know, you`ve always been like a fashion forward pop star. You always have a look about you that`s gorgeous. And here you are on the cover of "Rolling Stone" in 1984. Let`s look at that. Look at that picture. Now, how do you feel when you see that picture?
LAUPER: Well, you know...
BEHAR: Look at you.
LAUPER: I was doing a whole anti-fashion thing at the time. And there were so many cute pictures that we took. The day I saw that picture, I was crying.
BEHAR: Why?
LAUPER: Because I thought that they just wanted me to be the ugly one. They, they...
BEHAR: How could you be ugly? You`re so pretty.
LAUPER: Well, you know, they painted me. What do you mean? I`m a sculptor. I`m a piece of artwork. I don`t really look like this.
BEHAR: Yes, you do.
LAUPER: Oh, yeah, you see me on your show. Well, you know, it`s a little different.
BEHAR: But, you know, you don`t like the way you look. But it`s interesting because the new cover of "Rolling Stone" has Lady Gaga on it. And she -- look at the picture of her. She seems to sort of be from a similar cloth, you know, a little bit wacky and out there like you were in 1984.
LAUPER: Well, I think she also, like, I think...
BEHAR: But she has guns on her boobs. I mean, what`s that about?
LAUPER: Oh, and Madonna had the same kind of thing with the Gaultier...
BEHAR: Yeah, that she did. She had those bullet (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And those were interesting.
LAUPER: I know. I mean, what`s the big deal? Come on.
BEHAR: Oh, this is so cute.
LAUPER: Right? That`s cute.
BEHAR: Whose is this?
LAUPER: Mine.
BEHAR: I love this.
LAUPER: But you know, I did that because...
BEHAR: Can I wear this to the Emmys?
LAUPER: You can wear that over your dress. Why not?
BEHAR: That is some brassiere. I love it.
LAUPER: Why can`t it be colorful?
BEHAR: But, you know, the girls today who are in the music business who are coming up now, I mean, they seem to me to be crazier and wackier than ever. There`s the, you know, they`re getting called on the carpet for blaspheming the Catholic church and having sex with rosary beads and god knows what else they`re doing, you know, crazy stuff.
LAUPER: They`re having sex with rosary beads?
BEHAR: Well, not exactly that but looks like that. Very revealing nothing and they`re flipping the bird and they`re doing crazy things.
LAUPER: Oh, you`re talking about Ga? She never has off. She had one day off...
BEHAR: Not just Gaga. There`s Miley Cyrus is in a little bit of hot water for kissing a girl. They seem to have to raise the ante in order to get noticed.
LAUPER: Yeah, but you see, Miley`s coming out of that whole child star thing. She`s, you know, who knows what the heck. I mean, and you know, and also she`s growing up in front of everybody. It`s hard. You know, when you become famous, they don`t give you a handbook.
BEHAR: No, they don`t.
LAUPER: You know, like, what to do when somebody`s just up in your face taking picture, taking picture. Now, either I`m going to kiss a girl, tongue kiss a dog, I`m going to doing something really awful so they go away because when you work every day, every day, every day, you know, how can you be gracious all the time?
BEHAR: No, but you know what, I`m not talking really only just about her moods. I`m talking about the fact that they have to be outrageous to get attention. It`s not about the music. Sarah Vaughan, Dina Washington, Ella Fitzgerald, Rosy -- I could name a million of them. All they did was sing. Now it`s not enough. Right?
LAUPER: Well, everybody said that about me. And they didn`t think I could sing because my clothes. What -- somebody actually said this, "I couldn`t hear her singing because her clothes were so loud." And I was like, are you kidding me? You know, I don`t want to put the shroud on myself and become like a plain Jane.
BEHAR: No, now, I don`t think there`s any danger of that happening.
(LAUGHTER)
LAUPER: Well, I feel plain sometimes.
BEHAR: Really?
LAUPER: Yeah. Yeah.
BEHAR: Let`s look at your new viral video campaign called "Give a Damn." Watch this.
LAUPER: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m straight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m gay.
ELTON JOHN, ENTERTAINER: And I give a damn about equality.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Want to know why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because you can be fired in over half the states in this country for being gay or transgender.
WANDA SYKES, COMEDIAN: It`s time for things to change.
JOHN: We all have to get involved.
LAUPER: We all have to give a damn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We give a damn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s important to have straight allies, isn`t it, in the gay movement?
LAUPER: That`s what this is about. I did the whole "Apprentice" thing to go on national TV and say there is a large population in our country that does not have civil rights, and that`s the gay community.
BEHAR: Right.
LAUPER: And I couldn`t believe -- I did it, I did it live, too. I was like, yeah, and it afforded me to be able to kick off the "Give a Damn Campaign," which is all about everybody telling their stories and getting your straight allies in there, because in every civil rights movement, when I was growing up, I saw white people and black people marching saying, "this is not right."
BEHAR: Right.
LAUPER: And it isn`t right. And also, here`s the other thing, even if you are thinking selfishly, right? Fine. You know, we`re a free country, except for you guys over there. Well, that`s all well and good until you`re standing over there and it`s for some ridiculous reason that everybody decides to pick on you.
BEHAR: That`s right.
LAUPER: Either a free country or you`re not a free country. If somebody isn`t free in your country that means your freedom is up for grabs.
BEHAR: That`s true. That`s true. You know, I want to ask you about Elton John. You know, he recently performed for Rush Limbaugh for a million bucks. How much would they have to pay you to do that? Well, he`s all about mending bridges.
LAUPER: Who, Elton?
BEHAR: Yes. He`s about if I perform for this man who maybe is not really close to someone and he feels a kinship with Elton John -- this is rush Limbaugh feeling a kinship with a gay man, right? Well, instead of slamming the door closed, he went to go widen the gap.
BEHAR: So, would you do it?
LAUPER: Me? I don`t know. I don`t know. I have a big mouth. And I don`t -- I`m not always like -- I`m not always the calm, gracious person. I always have to go back and rethink, you know, it`s like "Kung Fu Panda," I always go to (INAUDIBLE) at the same thing going right here, always going, focus, focus and the other guy going, oh, my god! You know? I don`t know. I know my friends do stuff. Shaggy goes to the Mideast, takes the money and puts it into the Caribbean Children`s Fund.
BEHAR: Yeah, of course. I would assume you`d put it in your fund.
LAUPER: Yeah.
BEHAR: I mean, I perform also. I`m a stand-up, you know, and I would do it if Glenn Beck married Rush Limbaugh.
LAUPER: Really.
BEHAR: Yeah, then I would. I`d do it for 50 bucks if he did that.
LAUPER: I don`t think he`d marry him, though. Maybe he`s too tall.
BEHAR: He`s not his type.
(LAUGHTER)
So, now, you talked about "Celebrity Apprentice" before, did you enjoy doing that? how did you -- did you like it?
LAUPER: Well, I got to hang out with Sharon. Sharon is such -- oh, she`s such a hoot. We laughed so hard.
BEHAR: Who?
LAUPER: Sharon Osborne.
BEHAR: Oh, Sharon Osborne.
LAUPER: Oh my god, so funny. And the two of us, we laughed quite a bit. And you know, I got to say "gay rights" on national television, prime time. That`s pretty darn good.
BEHAR: But was it fun, too?
LAUPER: Well...
BEHAR: Not really?
LAUPER: There were moments that were fun.
BEHAR: Yeah, when you were laughing with Sharon. But besides that, the job that you had to do and all that stuff, was that fun?
LAUPER: Well, they`re 18-hour days, six days a week. And eventually, you all want to kill each other. And, you know, you can`t sit and eat because you have no time because then you have to go talk. You`re always talking.
BEHAR: Yeah, it`s tough.
LAUPER: And so I had a hard time. But would I do it again? Yeah. Did it help me? Yeah. I went down to Memphis, I did this in 2-1/2 weeks. I want every day, if I hit adversity. You know, we hit adversity anyway because you`re in entertainment, you always have that. but, if you, in the "Apprentice" it was like every day it`s another thing of adversity. OK. Regroup. So that`s -- it helped me. It helped me to regroup and...
BEHAR: I`m glad it helped you because you might be doing another reality show which we`ll talk about next time you come because I`ve run out of time.
LAUPER: I know, I signed with Mark Burnett. They want a reality show on moi.
BEHAR: Oh, my god.
LAUPER: Oh, my god.
BEHAR: But, thanks for joining me, anyway. I`m glad you came by. And her new album is "Memphis Blues."
Up next, could the oil spill lead to a shake-up at the White House? We`ll discuss, next.
LAUPER: Hope so.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: After his company, BP, devastated the gulf with its nasty oil spill, BP`s CEO Tony Hayward displayed his compassion and empathy by spending the weekend on his yacht. With me now are Frank Rich, "New York Times" columnist and Lizz Winstead, comedian and co-created of the "Daily Show."
Welcome, it`s so nice to have you here, Frank. I mean, Lizz has been here a lot.
FRANK RICH, "NEW YORK TIMES": Great to be here.
But, you`re the special guest tonight because we love you.
LIZZ WINSTEAD, COMEDIAN: Is it going to be this the whole time? Because, I`m out.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: No, no, no. That`s all the sucking up I`m doing.
Now, this guy, Tony Hayward. We hate him. I mean, what was he thinking to go yachting in the middle of this mess?
RICH: Well, I don`t know. And here`s the thing I don`t understand. They spend obviously so much time and money on P.R., they have all these ads. You know, they have new ads now without Tony -- they`ve taken him out of the ads, yet they let him go out on the yacht. And then we`re told it`s like with his son, right? And he came in fourth.
BEHAR: No, but if you look at the picture, it`s a bunch of grown-ups on the boat. He said he was spending time with his family.
WINSTEAD: Looks like a gathering at P-town on this boat. It`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: It`s like the Ram Rod on water.
WINSTEAD: Yeah, I know. It`s true. and it`s like these ads are crazy. First of all, when you hire Dick Cheney`s P.R. person, you get what you pay for.
RICH: Yeah, exactly.
Like this is...
BEHAR: Why? They did very well during bush. They bamboozled everybody with their P.R.
WINSTEAD: Dick Cheney is really not ever risen to any good levels of most lovable man, redeemed self by the P.R.
BEHAR: No. No. No.
WINSTEAD: But I do think you watch the BP ads and what`s astounding to me is there`s a line in one of the ads where Tony Hayward says, "BP is overseeing the world`s largest environmental cleanup."
BEHAR: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
WINSTEAD: Yeah, that`s like wait, that`s like Ted Bundy saying, I am helping the police find more bodies in the world`s largest mass murder.
RICH: Don`t you want to know who got paid a fortune to say, "We will make it right." You know they sat around a table like this and you know, we`ll fix it. No, that -- now. "We`ll make it right."
BEHAR: We`ll make it right.
WINSTEAD: Right.
RICH: And you get a raise. Don Draper in action.
BEHAR: Yeah, "Mad Men." So, who should he fire?
RICH: Everybody.
BEHAR: Obama needs to fire a few people. Let`s talk about him now.
RICH: Well, I hate to look in those terms, but clearly in my column, I talked about this "Rolling Stone" piece that just shows that the Interior Department, for all -- Ken Salazar, for all him talking about "I`m the new sheriff Town" and "I`ll put my boot on BP`s neck" and so on, they basically had a third Bush term in that department. They didn`t know cleanup. They made some new environmentalist, the new head of the minerals mining service. But, and they fired here, but she`s a scapegoat.
And so, why was this going on? One thing "Rolling Stone" reports is from the very first day, according to federal law, this government had to kick BP out or to put them in a subservient position and let them, the government run the cleanup if there`s a threat to public safety or public health. Why did they dawdle for weeks?
BEHAR: Well, why did they?
RICH: I don`t know. But I think that Obama -- to get back to your question, Obama`s got to get into that Interior Department and not just give everyone, you know, a heck of a brownie kind of pats on the back, heck of a job...
BEHAR: Isn`t that what Reagan did at one point in his administration when he just said, I`m really losing my numbers now and I`m just firing this one and that one and this one and that one.
RICH: It`s happened in a lot of administrations. And there`s been some people who have taken a hit in the Obama administration but it doesn`t necessarily seem like it`s the right people or the most important people, particularly when things go this wrong.
WINSTEAD: Well, I was going to ask, one thing you didn`t mention in your column, Frank, is whether or not they replaced their meth dealers with new ones.
RICH: Well, they`re hard to find. You know, that`s are real -- and they`ve got to be vetted very carefully.
WINSTEAD: It`s hard.
RICH: The FBI has got the secret -- really, it`s difficult.
WINSTEAD: It is hard.
BEHAR: Now, with Obama, you talk about this in column yesterday, too -- that he compared this disaster to 9/11. Do you think that`s an appropriate comparison? Tell me.
RICH: I don`t think it`s tasteless, as some people did at all. He was saying in a sense that this will make us rethink energy policy and the environment in the way that that made us rethink of fighting terrorism.
But I do think it has an incredible urgency and we don`t know yet the real extent of the damage, the amount of gallons that`s being pumped into the gulf, it increases by the day, we don`t even have a hold on what`s going on. And so, it`s a hurricane strikes and so it really could be a calamity.
BEHAR: Wow, that`s going to be bad.
RICH: It won`t kill 3,000 people, but still it`s serious, it`s going to destroy a whole -- the economy and the eco-structure of whole region of the country.
WINSTEAD: Boy, It`s -- when Obama speaks about the environment, all of that, it seems hollow to me, because he says the same words over and over again, which you eloquently put in your column, but then he pushes the clean coal. Stop talking about things like clean coal. It doesn`t exist. It`s a nonexistent thing, like virginal whore.
BEHAR: The left is pushing him. I notice that the left is really are on his back right now and maybe that will..
WINSTEAD: A lot of people who eat fish are, too. I mean, please.
BEHAR: I know that. I know that.
RICH: You know, it`s beyond the left and the right. It`s not even in some ways an ideological issue. It is to the Republicans, but it`s not to like people who are sane.
BEHAR: Exactly.
RICH: And I don`t mean all Republicans are insane.
BEHAR: Just the Republican Party.
RICH: The Republican party, exactly. But when you go watch network news and you see someone in the shrimp business down there whose really, whose entire livelihood is being destroyed and it`s poignant.
BEHAR: It`s heartbreaking to see a lot of that. And those animals, too.
RICH: Yeah, the pelicans and the...
BEHAR: Let`s just -- before we go -- I`m running out of time already. This guy Barton, this congressman from Texas who said that -- he apologized to BP for the -- what did he call it? A shakedown. The $20 billion that Obama got, which was great that he got the money. Let`s see the cash pass. Shouldn`t they be just really capitalizing on this like really showing America how bad -- how badly the Republicans would handle this if they were in power?
RICH: I hope they will. And they`ve got to spell it out. This is the guy who would be in line if Republicans take back the House to run energy and oil policy in America from the House side. And he wasn`t making some gaffe or running off the reservation. This was in a prepared statement the day before some hundred members of the House and senate said exactly the same thing about a shakedown. This is the ideology of that party, they`re in bed with big oil and you got to call them on it.
(CROSSTALK)
WINSTEAD: And not to mention, just real quick. He set the tone. We talked about him more than we actually talked about Tony Hayward. I wonder if there was something calculated about that. We talked about Joe Barton, we didn`t about BP, as much.
We have a little more time when we come back after this quick break, because I love his topic.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with comedian Lizz Winstead and "New York Times" columnist extraordinary Frank Rich.
OK, now, you know, Rahm Emanuel, now there`s a rumor that he`s going to be leaving the administration. Is there anything to that?
RICH: Nothing.
BEHAR: Nothing?
RICH: I mean, I`m sure he will some day, but this is like -- looks like a manufactured -- isn`t it from a British newspaper?
BEHAR: Well, yeah, I think so. So, what do you think, why does he get so much flack, Rahm? People don`t like him.
WINSTEAD: Well, I think there`s a couple reasons why. One, I think his demeanor, but two, Obama was the -- you know, the candidate and supposedly the president of change. And the first thing he does is brings in Rahm who was a Democrat and he brings in all of these moderates, and we look at what happened with health care with all these thing, so we have to...
BEHAR: Why, health care passed. We got it.
WINSTEAD: Without a public option. The insurance companies, not perfect...
BEHAR: Not perfect, but we got it.
WINSTEAD: Not, win, win, win, but the people who Rahm raised money for were the biggest obstructionists on the Democratic Party side, I think.
BEHAR: But, you know, Frank, this quote from Rahm, I`m just going to read a little bit of it. "I think that what Joe Barton did was to remind the American people, in case they forgot, this is how the Republicans would govern, to apologize to big oil for spilling the oil in there and for giving us the money." Isn`t he doing what Obama should be doing, really, and saying something like that?
RICH: Yeah, I agree. I mean, Rahm Emanuel, you know, insiders seem to have an opinion about Rahm Emanuel and we`re junkies and we care about it. But I agree, I think that Emanuel, over the weekend, really did articulate the message that Obama should be delivering and I don`t know why the president feels such a sense of politesse that he can`t act like Truman for 10 minutes and really let them have it.
BEHAR: But, why wouldn`t Obama say something like this? Why?
RICH: It`s this thing he has about being above the fray and bipartisan to a fault, you know, he just won`t take...
BEHAR: You know, here`s the thing about that bipartisan thing with him. Listen, Barack, they`re just not into you. The Republicans are just not into you.
WINSTEAD: It`s true.
BEHAR: So forget about them. They`re not going to do it.
WINSTEAD: Treat them like the kindergartners that they act like. I mean, it`s really, you got to -- somebody has to take charge and make decisions.
RICH: Occasional he does it. You know, he did an interview, but a print interview, that Republicans are incredible hypocrites. You know, that they would turn everything over to big oil, but he gets in front of the camera, it becomes official and very above the fray. And I think that people would like to see him swing a punch.
BEHAR: Everybody would like him to get angry. Now, Sarah Palin, hate to bring her name up, but.
WINSTEAD: Ugh.
I know. She tweeted today that Rahm Emanuel is a liar. Why does anybody listen to her?
WINSTEAD: Why are we reporting what she tweets? This is the problem.
BEHAR: A lot of people are objecting to me ever bringing up her name again.
WINSTEAD: Let`s pour water on her and see if she melts. Can we just do that? I really can`t take this.
RICH: Well, what is wrong with Emanuel, even lying about that caught her attention.
(CROSSTALK)
RICH: She doesn`t read.
WINSTEAD: Does she even know who Rahm Emanuel is?
BEHAR: Was is that whole death panel thing, that was her a liar, wasn`t it?.She`s a liar, that`s why I bring her name up so I can say that.
RICH: Yeah, there we are.
BEHAR: All right. I ran out of time.
WINSTEAD: Agreed.
BEHAR: Thank you very much, you guys.
All of this oil spill talk has made me ponder a bit. I think President Bush said it best when he said, "It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports are coming from overseas." He was brilliant. Good night, everybody.
(LAUGHTER)
END
