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Joy Behar Page
Gary Coleman`s Parents Discuss His Life and Death; Profile Of a Killer; General Disarray; Leaky Logic
Aired June 22, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Tonight, nearly a month after his death, Gary Coleman`s estate remains in limbo. In an exclusive interview, I`ll talk to Gary`s parents about this entire ordeal.
Then President Obama orders his top general back from Afghanistan for inflammatory remarks made in "Rolling Stone" magazine. It now looks like McChrystal quit before he could be fired.
Joran Van Der Sloot claims he`s getting e-mails from all over the globe asking him to father their children. Can we add delusional to his list of disorders? That and more right now.
Gary Coleman lived a turbulent life, and the drama continues even after his death. There`s a nasty battle going on over his estate. And now it appears that Coleman may have even taken out a restraining order against his ex-wife, Shannon Price. Caught in the middle of all this are Gary Coleman`s estranged parents, who are here for an exclusive interview to tell me their side of the story.
Sue and Willie Coleman, thank you so much for being here tonight with me.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: OK. I`m very sorry for your loss. How are you holding up? How are you doing now?
SUE COLEMAN, MOTHER OF GARY COLEMAN: We`re doing better. It gets easier day by day. And now that we have been told that his remains have been taken care of, we`re feeling much better about that.
BEHAR: The ashes are under lock and key until a judge decides who will get control of his estate. What do you think should become of the remains?
WILLIE COLEMAN, FATHER OF GARY COLEMAN: Which remains? His remains?
BEHAR: Yes.
W. COLEMAN: His ashes?
BEHAR: I guess his ashes, yeah.
W. COLEMAN: Well, really -- everything`s up in the air right now. But if there`s a clause in there where his ex-wife is entitled to them, we won`t stand in her way. She can have them. But I really can`t, you know, say that I would oppose to it or either that I`d be willing to let her have them. But after all, see, the love that we have for Gary and everything, it was never no mystery or anything. Even before we found out, we`ve always loved him.
BEHAR: But go ahead, I`m sorry, go ahead Mrs. Coleman.
S. COLEMAN: Even if the court should say that his remains, the ashes, come to us, we`re willing to accept them. I mean, you know, that`s not something that we would deny. We would be more than willing to accept it.
BEHAR: What about the control of the estate? You guys are not fighting for control of the estate. Who is fighting for that?
S. COLEMAN: We really -- we understand that there is a Miss Anna Gray who is -- has some -- the wills or whatever, and that she is petitioning the court and all that. So whatever the outcome is --
BEHAR: Do you know her?
W. COLEMAN: No. We never had the pleasure of meeting her.
BEHAR: So you don`t know her. What do you make of Gary`s ex-wife Shannon?
W. COLEMAN: Well --
BEHAR: Her questionable behavior. There`s a lot of controversy about how this woman is be having.
W. COLEMAN: With her, we really never had the pleasure of meeting her either, because we had hoped that when we found out that Gary was married, that he would have called us and made an attempt to bring her home or either invite us out to meet her.
BEHAR: But he never did?
W. COLEMAN: No.
BEHAR: He never did. Well, it came out today that Gary had a restraining order against Shannon in February. To me, that says that he did not want her to inherit anything. What does that say to you?
S. COLEMAN: You know, we`re just now hearing about this. We didn`t know about the restraining order. And if that`s true, then -- you know, then the attorneys and the person in charge of his estate will have to work that out. Like my husband said, we have not met her. I do think that she`s young, that she`s -- you know, really, I don`t know if --
W. COLEMAN: Inexperienced.
S. COLEMAN: Yeah, inexperienced. And maybe she was moving too fast on some things or whatever. But, anyway, I think that the court will make that decision.
BEHAR: Now, you know this girl Shannon Price, she happened to be the one to make the decision to end Gary`s life after only -- he was in the coma for 24 hours.
W. COLEMAN: Right.
BEHAR: And my understanding was that he had in his living will that they should have left him in this state for 15 days, not 24 hours.
W. COLEMAN: Right.
BEHAR: Do you feel that -- first of all, how come she got to do that, number one? She wasn`t really even legally married to him at the time. And do you feel angry about that, first of all?
W. COLEMAN: Well, in my perspective is that, you know, at the time we had no indications, you know, that they had been divorced. And like I said, we was away visiting my oldest brother. Like we was there celebrating his 76th birthday in Arkansas at the time that we got the news, you know, that he had expired. And we didn`t know what had happened till later on, when someone told us that -- we got a call and said that, you know, she was the one that, you know, disconnected the, you know, the --
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right. And you guys never got the call to confer on the decision, did you?
S. COLEMAN: No. We didn`t.
BEHAR: Have you -- let me ask you. Have you heard the911 call to the EMT that she made when Gary had fallen that day?
S. COLEMAN: Yes.
W. COLEMAN: I`ve heard two different versions of it.
BEHAR: Oh?
W. COLEMAN: The first version was that she was in bed and she could not -- you know, could not assist him.
BEHAR: Yeah. And the second version?
W. COLEMAN: And the second version that she said that she couldn`t stand all the blood. And I`m going, wait a minute. If she was in bed, how in the world could she, you know, have said she couldn`t stand all the blood? And my understanding was that she -- like he`d had a seizure. And it sounded strange everything.
BEHAR: It`s true, it`s true. It`s a confusing report. But I`m really wondering what you thought of the fact that she seemed so cold and disconnected from the actual tragedy. It seemed to be more about her than about Gary?
W. COLEMAN: Can I say something? You know, Joy, we`re not holding any animosity towards her, because, like I said, like my wife said before, she was young, inexperienced. I don`t even think she realized that she had been married or she was no longer married to Gary.
BEHAR: She realized it. She realized it. She`s not stupid. She knew that she wasn`t married to him any more. But didn`t seem to affect her behavior. Mrs. Coleman, did you want to add something?
S. COLEMAN: I just thought that we didn`t know that they were legally divorced at the time of his death. And when they said that she had pulled the plug, I`m thinking, well, I don`t know -- I guess we didn`t know that they were divorced. I don`t know what they had discussed between the two of them, or what kind of arrangements that they have made. It wasn`t until later that we saw this document that said that he did have this directive that said that he wanted everything left in place for however many days.
BEHAR: Right. Now, did you also see the fact that she had these death bed photos made and sent out to the press?
S. COLEMAN: That I thought was a little weird. I can understand if she wanted to have photos made for her own self, for her own use.
W. COLEMAN: But not on the death bed. Not on the death bed.
BEHAR: Why would she want that? I don`t know too many people that would do that?
S. COLEMAN: I don`t know. I think she`s young. I don`t know if she had counseling. I don`t know if she had anyone guiding her, saying, you should do this or you shouldn`t do that. I don`t know what the situation was with her. And I don`t know what her intentions was when she took those photos. But I do understand that they went out to the public.
BEHAR: Yes. Do you guys feel like, at the end of the day, you were robbed of your chance to say good-bye to Gary.
W. COLEMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Because of what went down there? You do.
W. COLEMAN: Most certainly.
S. COLEMAN: Yes.
W. COLEMAN: And I hurt more and more every day, more and more.
BEHAR: I`m sorry. What do you want to see happen in this legal battle?
S. COLEMAN: I would just like to see everything solved in a civil manner. And, from what I understand, that Miss Gray seems to be a very intelligent lady. And I`m hoping that she can get it all settled and done with quickly.
BEHAR: OK.
W. COLEMAN: First, you know, then we`ve never met her either, you know. When we first heard of her, mentioned in everything, was that -- when these other two individuals said that they had a secret will. Then three or four days later, that`s when Miss Gray come into play. And that`s when we also noted this document that Gary had signed wishing to be revived.
BEHAR: Yes.
W. COLEMAN: In the event that he went under.
BEHAR: OK. We have to talk about this a little bit more and about your relationship with Gary. So, if you don`t mind, stay right there. We`ll be back in a minute with more from Gary Coleman`s parents.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Gary Coleman`s parents, Sue and Willie Coleman. You know, such a cute kid, huh? Tell me a little bit about him when he was a child. A little boy.
W. COLEMAN: You want me or you want my wife?
BEHAR: Let`s hear from Mrs. Coleman. She needs to talk a little. But was he precocious? Was he a shy kid? What was he like? Because he was very funny obviously in the show.
S. COLEMAN: He was never shy. Precocious, yes. He was fun loving. He loved to be with people. He loved to entertain people, even as a little kid. I`ve often told the story of my dad, who was his main audience when he was two or three years old. No matter what he did, if he sang, danced, turned a somersault, whatever, my dad would always cheer and applause for him. So he was acting very early in his life.
BEHAR: So he was not -- he was a loved child?
S. COLEMAN: Yes.
W. COLEMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: How old was he when you adopted him?
W. COLEMAN: Gary -- when we brought him home, Gary was four days old.
BEHAR: Four Days old.
S. COLEMAN: Yeah, three or four days old.
BEHAR: There was a little conversation I had with somebody about what age did you tell him he was adopted?
W. COLEMAN: Five, five and a half.
BEHAR: When he was a little older than a toddler.
W. COLEMAN: Then again when he turned eight and nine. So then he didn`t want to talk about it any more, because he was always coming to me and he look at me, then he look at his mother and say, dad, look at me, look at you. There`s no way in the world I could have been adopted because I look so much like you. I say, yeah, Gary. And we used to laugh about that quite often. We`d sit at the dinner table and laugh about it.
BEHAR: The way you describe your relationship with him, it sounds like a very loving home. And yet, it was reported that you were estranged from him for a number of years. When was the last time you talked to him? What happened?
S. COLEMAN: Well, you know, lots of things happened. He grew up from about the age 10 in the Hollywood scene with the -- you know, the sitcom and all that. So things happen to children that grow up in show business sometimes, not all of them. But sometimes they do. And when he became of age, when he was 18, 19 years old, he wanted to be his own person. He wanted to be his own man, do things his own way. And so, you know, we tried to encourage him the best we could. We tried to guide him as much as we could. But it was his life, and he wanted to live it.
BEHAR: I see. Go ahead.
W. COLEMAN: That was the incident, you know, like the incident last - - him and I had a conversation and everything where he had just moved into his house that he had just purchased himself. He said, dad, time to cut loose and everything. I feel like, you know that prison that is down in Arizona and everything, where the guys walking around with the ball and chain? He said, I just feel that you are -- you were my prison.
BEHAR: That you were his ball and chain?
W. COLEMAN: I went through simulation, like I got my cutters and I reached down to his ankle. And I said, OK. OK, you`re free. You feel better now? He said, yeah, I feel better. He said, but remember now, I want to tell you and mom both that I love you guys and everything. And that I know you guys love me. And there`s about ten letters, Joy, that we have that, you know -- every once in a while I pull a letter out and read. Each one of those letters it ended with, hey, guys, I love you guys. You know? And I love you love me, too. You know. It always was ending with love. And that`s just the way we felt about him.
BEHAR: Yeah. But, you know, I have to ask you because you said in the lawsuit that you mismanaged his money. Did you mismanage it? Or what happened to the money? He must have made a lot of money over the years.
S. COLEMAN: He made a lot of money. No, we did not mismanage it, because we did not hold the money.
W. COLEMAN: We were not handling any money.
BEHAR: Who was handling the money?
S. COLEMAN: He had a business management firm who took care of all of his money and all of his business.
BEHAR: And that was his decision to give this money over to this business manager or yours?
S. COLEMAN: In the beginning it was ours because he was 10, 11 years old. So we did hire business management to take over, because I didn`t feel that I was capable of doing that.
BEHAR: Of course.
S. COLEMAN: You know, and neither did my husband. So we did hire a business management firm to take over and take care of his money and his investments and all this stuff that was --
W. COLEMAN: Can I clear up something, a dispute about that, Joy?
BEHAR: What?
W. COLEMAN: All indication is that everybody -- you`re out there and outlying and everything, outside, everything, he said he made 18 million dollars, and his parents, you know, stole everything from him. To my recollection, the last count, when we turned over to him everything, when he turned 18 was 6.3 million dollars. OK? That`s what we turned over to him in cash. That was outside of all his investments that he had. He had about five of them, everything. But he was under the impression by other influence that it was a bad investment. Real estate doesn`t make no money. Why didn`t we go into stock. All this stuff.
S. COLEMAN: No matter how much money he had -- he could have had a trillion dollars. The two of us would never take any money away from him. We were not raised that way. That`s not where we come from. So that --
BEHAR: I hear you. But I have to just -- I want to present to you what I`ve been hearing, what other people have been saying, so that you can defend your position, because "Different Strokes" co-star Todd Bridges was on my show in March. Watch what he said about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BRIDGES, "DIFFERENT STROKES": His parents made him work when he was deathly ill. This is why he hates the thought of "Different Strokes." I remember him being on the set when he was throwing up, rejecting a kidney, and his parents made him work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: How do you respond to that?
W. COLEMAN: Todd Bridges really didn`t know the history of our home. He never spent a night in my house. He never spent a day at my dinner table. Todd Bridges really didn`t know anything about our lifestyle, because we were not out there doing drugs and --
BEHAR: Well, I can believe that.
W. COLEMAN: -- and drinking and partying and everything. We were god fearing. And my thing is that people going around shooting their mouth off about something that they have no idea --
S. COLEMAN: But they`re talking.
W. COLEMAN: Especially joy, if we were so bad and had done all these things, why are we where we are now today? Why are we in the same place that we was when "Strokes" started? We went back and went back to work. My wife went back into nursing. I went back -- I got a job -- I took another job at a DVD or movie --
BEHAR: Your point being, if you stole his money or took any advantage of him, you wouldn`t have had to work. I want to talk more to you. Stay right there. We`ll be back with more of Gary Coleman`s parents.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Gary Coleman`s parents, Sue and Willie Coleman. Let me go back to the fact that the lawsuit that he held against you, saying that you mismanaged his money. That was in 1993. There was a ruling. And you guys lost the -- you lost the case. And over the years since `93, there have been so many rumors and accusations against you. And yet you never came out to defend yourselves. Why not?
W. COLEMAN: Well, really, Joy, we had nothing to defend ourselves from. Because, after all, as I said, when Gary turned 18 years old -- you know how you do a horse? We were put out to pasture. Gary took on a whole new branch of individuals that wanted to manage his career and also manage his money. Like I said before, what we turn over to him. What happened then, I don`t know, but as far as the case -- you know what that was all about? I`ll explain to you. That was about a balloon, you know, bond that we had set aside in case Gary had a guy kidnapped. This is how it all came about. We had nothing to -- you know, to give up. You know, we had nothing, you know. We left California --
BEHAR: I understand. Yeah.
W. COLEMAN: Everything we had -- our pension plan that we had accumulated by working for Gary, everything. I even had to sell my stock, which was 7,000 shares, and also my bachelor stock, which was 3,000 shares, in order to try to maintain and keep afloat.
BEHAR: I understand what you`re saying. I`m just wondering why you didn`t go on television to defense yourselves? Because people were throwing a lot of bad accusations. You heard Todd Bridges. And, I mean, the conventional wisdom for many years was he was estranged from his parents because they stole his money, they mismanaged his money. No one ever heard from you.
S. COLEMAN: You know, we didn`t really have anything to defend ourselves from. We did not take anything from Gary, and he knew that. And we didn`t need to go on television and say, you know, we didn`t or we did. And as far as Mr. Bridges go, he has a book to sell. And I think his perspective of what happened way back when may vary from what we saw way back then. You know. So you know, I don`t know --
BEHAR: So I guess you felt that you were -- your hands were clean and you didn`t have any reason to be defensive.
W. COLEMAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: OK. Before I go, you know, let`s just end the conversation with something from you about how you want people to remember Gary Coleman.
W. COLEMAN: I want people to remember Gary as he was when he was doing "Strokes," before he was doing "Strokes" when he was doing the Heritage Bank commercial, and also when he was on "The Jeffersons." Making people laugh. I want people to remember the sweet little gentle boy that we raised to be respectful and be honest and honorable with everybody, to love girls, you know, everything like that, and always to be polite to women and everything regardless of what they said it was.
BEHAR: I think people will remember him from that show because reruns are forever.
W. COLEMAN: We want people to love him.
BEHAR: Anyway, Sue and Willie Coleman, thanks very much for your time. We wish you the best of luck. Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: New details today in the case of accused killer Joran Van Der Sloot. Also a new psychological report says that Van Der Sloot has an anti-social personality and is indifferent towards others` well-being. Here now with the latest from Peru is Jean Casarez, correspondent for "IN SESSION" on TruTV. Jean, you have new information on the viciousness of the attack on this victim in Peru. Tell me about it.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": It`s really something. You know, we had heard how her injuries were from head to toe, but for the first time in this document that is equivalent to a formal complaint in the United States, we really are hearing how vicious it was. I think most dramatic are the injuries to her skull. There was actually a cranial fracture to her head and hemorrhage to the brain. And it goes on to just denote the many bruise all over her body and the contusions. Talks about the asphyxiation and the fact that the traumatic lesions to her neck which ultimately led to her death. And Joran says that he took his hands and just started to strangle her around the neck.
BEHAR: Wow. And it also sounds like -- it sounded like it was noisy, wasn`t it? I mean, a brain hemorrhage and all that. Did anybody hear anything in that hotel?
CASAREZ: No, we have never heard that at all. Nothing has come out about neighbors in the adjoin rooms or anything to that. But you know in the confession he says, there was never a struggle. Never a struggle is what he says, but these are the injuries.
BEHAR: Right with the skull fracture and a brain hemorrhage, I would say there was a struggle of some sort. Now and the prosecu --
CASAREZ: Yes, and you know what else?
BEHAR: Right, what.
CASAREZ: You know what else? There`s this tennis racket that was found in the room and originally, you know, it was going around it was the racket that he used allegedly. The tennis racket had no blood on it at all. So no weapon has been found. So when you look at the injuries on her body, it would have to come from someone`s bare hands, it appears as though.
BEHAR: Well it says something about him. And the prosecution`s psych report paints a very ugly picture of Van Der Sloot. What does that report tell you? What does it reveal?
CASAREZ: Well this -- this is the first time that we have ever had a psychological summary of Joran Van Der Sloot. First time ever. And it talks about that he has a very erratic personality. I mean in the most modest terms you can say, he`s selfish. But it says that he does not respect women and that if there`s any type of conflict, that what he does is just explode and that it can lead to the endangerment of the lives of others.
BEHAR: Uh huh and this sort of indifference towards people`s feelings or any of that, I think that that pretty much tells you a lot. Do you think it will be used by prosecutors in the case? The report?
CASAREZ: I think it will because it`s part of the prosecution`s document that they gave to the judge. And remember, they`re charging this as first degree murder, that he ferociously and angrily committed this murder. But I can see the defense could possibly use it, too, to say that just his emotions got out of control. It wasn`t premeditated at all.
BEHAR: I see. Now you know, he`s claiming to a Dutch newspaper that he`s received e-mail marriage offers. What can you tell us about that? Does he have access to a computer?
CASAREZ: Well, not that I know of, no. There were some inmates that were on computers when I was there. And I said, do they have access to the internet? They told me, no, they don`t have access to the internet. They take computer courses online. And that`s what I saw, inmates in general population doing. So if they don`t have internet access he doesn`t have internet access. But I was in the room. I didn`t see any letters from anyone, or any marriage proposals or anything. And he`s only had one visitor. It was last weekend on Sunday. A friend of his from the Netherlands actually flew here to visit him. That`s the only visitor he`s had.
BEHAR: OK thanks very much, Jean. Now, I want to turn to my panel. Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers And Psychopaths." and Brian Russell, attorney in forensic psychology. OK, you both heard Jean`s report on the condition of the victim`s body and the psych evaluation. Brian, you`re the shrink, what does all this tell you?
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well the severity of damage to the victim`s body, Joy, and the gratuitous damage that appears to have been done indicates rage. And if he`s a psychopath, then he feels entitled to take what he wants from anyone. And so if she denied him or defied him in some way, it would not be surprising at all for him to fly into a rage.
BEHAR: Right. And as a criminal profiler, Pat, does this evaluation fit the profile of a killer?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Oh, absolutely.
BEHAR: It does?
BROWN: This is a profile of a psychopath. And I`m really pleased with it. Because I`m thankful that the psychiatrist didn`t decide to go down the psychotic road and sort of support Joran`s mother saying he was going crazy, and losing his mind, because that could give him some, you know, kind of support in court. But to say he`s a cold blooded psychopath that simply felt he was entitled to something from this girl and therefore killed her because he didn`t get what he wanted, that`s a different ball of wax. I`m happy about the report.
BEHAR: Right and this doesn`t happen overnight, Brian. This guy was a ticking time bomb I think, right?
RUSSELL: Yes, psychopathy has multiple factors, it has genetic factors, it has up-bringing factors, and there`s a personal choice element in it, Joy. And so, yes, he became this way over a period of years. I think parenting probably played a role. It doesn`t excuse anything. But he`s a perfect example of why you need structure and discipline and behavioral expectations in your household. Otherwise you end up with a sociopathic narcissistic little punk who becomes a sociopathic narcissistic adult like O.J. Simpson and Joran Van Der Sloot.
BEHAR: Yes I think you have to watch children very carefully. You know children who are just nasty to animals, cruel to animals, those kinds of kids need a lot of help early on. It`s amazing he didn`t get any help up until now, isn`t it? He should have been helped before.
RUSSELL: Well, all the parents did was swoop in and try to spare him the consequences of his behavior. Think about back in Aruba, Joy. He was out in high school at all hours of the night having sex with strangers, drinking, gambling, doing drugs. And when he got in trouble, what did they do? They showed up and told us all what a good kid he was and how she have compensation from the Aruban authorities for what he had gone through. Here she is now saying he`s crazy.
BEHAR: Yes, you know he`s been boasting to a Dutch newspaper that he`s received marriage offers from women while in jail. Now, Jean says that there`s no proof of that, but it`s not unheard of. The Menendez brothers are more popular now than when they were not in jail. I mean, there`s something about some women who are attracted to these guys in jail. What do you know about any of that? Either one of you.
BROWN: Well, I have to say -- take a look at Scott Peterson. He got lots of mail. And Ted Bundy got married in jail and had conjugal visits and had a little daughter. There are some women out there who don`t want to start dating Joe the box boy over at the Safeway, you know. They want somebody that doesn`t make them somebody. And they can`t get anybody exciting. They can`t get a movie star in their life. No, but who can you get? You can get a killer because he will pay attention to you. And then you can hook up with him and you can brag about who you are with -
BEHAR: I see.
BROWN: And you can say, I don`t think he did it and all this kind of crap. And maybe even get in the media eventually. You get a lot of attention.
BEHAR: And he`s safe, you know he`s not going to kill you because he`s behind bars.
BROWN: He`s in jail, exactly.
BEHAR: And you know where he is at night. You don`t have to suspect he`s cheating on you. We know exactly where he is. Go ahead, I`m sorry.
RUSSELL: Ted Bundy -
BROWN: At least he`s not cheating on you with other women.
BEHAR: Right.
RUSSELL: Ted Bundy, John Gacy, both Menendez brothers, both Hillside stranglers, the night stalker, they all formed relationships or got married while they were behind bars. And it says more about the women than it does about the men. It says that they`re lonely, they have extremely low self- esteem, they`re craving attention and they are craving a relationship in which they can exert some control.
BEHAR: Yes, he didn`t -
BROWN: Joy, Joy, I want to say something.
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
BROWN: Just because we have this new evidence in. One of the things that`s fascinating, is that Joran actually said that he took her pants off and her shoes off after she was dead. Which of course makes no sense whatsoever. And we see a massive struggle here. And when we look at her pants, her pants have almost no blood on them. You`re going to tell me that you got mad at her over an e-mail thing and you know she punched at you and you went crazy and you hit her nose, blood going everyplace and hardly anything on her pants. This is going to prove that Joran was lying. He was attacking her, he took her pants and shoes off before she was dead. And obviously this is where the struggle came from. So I hope that they go forth and prove that this was a sexual assault and get him that 35 years.
BEHAR: OK thank you -
RUSSELL: Yes and joy, while we`re here - can I just say, I know you have got a lot of young women watching the show tonight. And I want you to listen to me because I know many of you think you`d be able to spot a guy like this. That`s bull. They`ll appear so harmless, so charming, you won`t see the danger until it`s too late.
BEHAR: Right.
RUSSELL: So you got to be more careful than you think you need to be.
BEHAR: OK that`s the Ted Bundy story. Thanks guys very much. Back in a minute with the latest on General McChrystal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: It looks like General Stanley McChrystal quit before he could be fired. President Obama has ordered -- had ordered the top American General in Afghanistan to the White House for extremely critical remarks that were published in "Rolling Stone." but "Time" magazine`s Joe Klein says McChrystal has resigned. Here to discuss this story Mary Matalin CNN political contributor and Republican strategist, Arianna Huffington co- founder and managing editor of the huffingtonpost.com. Both of these women are the new hosts of the radio show "Both Sides." now, that is so adorable, that the two of you -
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Girl power.
BEHAR: On the left and the right just talking jewelry. I love it.
ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, CO-FOUNDER HUFFINGTONPOST.COM: It`s our version of THE VIEW, right?
MATALIN: That`s right.
HUFFINGTON: Except we have to be made up. We can just do it on radio.
BEHAR: That`s right and you don`t have to have anybody interrupt you. Just the two of you.
HUFFINGTON: No, no, no, we have a moderator, Log Green (ph) is our moderator. But somehow we want to talk about the things that we are both struggling with, like being moms. We each have two daughters. Yours are a little younger. Mine are one about to go to college, one in college. Being professional women and trying to get some sleep, recharging --
BEHAR: So it`s not politics.
HUFFINGTON: And politics.
BEHAR: And politics.
MATALIN: It started out in that paradigm, but when you get two smart women together, three smart women together, you just can`t stay in the box.
BEHAR: That`s true.
MATALIN: We leave out of the box, we`re picking topics like sleeping, like detaching from all your gadgets, like -- we`ll probably wind up doing something like that.
BEHAR: OK but let`s talk about McChrystal for a minute, then we can talk hair later. When we`re off the air. It looks as though he has resigned, McChrystal. So he kind of made it easy for Obama. Or was he pushed? What do you think?
MATALIN: He wasn`t insubordinate in the sense of violating the policy. He was working overtime to execute on the president`s policy which is counterinsurgency there. By all accounts he`s the best guy at it.
BEHAR: Right.
MATALIN: But when you lose the confidence and the commander in chief and the commander in chief`s team, well that was the right thing to do. Maybe not the right thing to do for the policy and the country, but the thing he had to do for himself.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What does -- his staff talking about the president and Joe Biden.
HUFFINGTON: But this is not the --
BEHAR: In "Rolling Stone" magazine.
HUFFINGTON: Remember, he already had leaked the preferred numbers of what he wanted before the president decided what the escalation would involve. Then he called the offensive in Marja, a bleeding ulcer. So he has been showing consecutive errors in judgment. And in a way, the president should have dealt with him earlier. I mean that is really a recurring problem with the administration. Which is they`re not really good at the quick and timely gesture, whether it`s McChrystal or BP. They can`t just let things get worse and worse. And McChrystal just got worse and worse, basically.
MATALIN: You know this is an insider Washington game that he obviously doesn`t play well. If you want to use the press to send a message, you do it anonymously. You don`t put your name on it, which he`s done consecutively.
BEHAR: You`re talking about McChrystal.
MATALIN: Yes. But what happen is this is lifelong inside the beltway game where you use the press to deliver your message. He did it ham- handedly, you are right. And you are also right about you have to deal with it at the outset not --
BEHAR: Well now, if he`s gone, who`s going to be running the War in Afghanistan?
HUFFINGTON: I certainly hope it will be the moment for the president to question this war because we are spending tens of billions of dollars --
BEHAR: That we don`t have.
HUFFINGTON: That we don`t have. For a war that I consider completely unnecessary and unwinnable.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that, Mary?
MATALIN: No. But the president, the commander in chief has said he wants to have the draw down starting next summer. So if he wants to have the draw down in his timetable, which is the foreign policy in first place, he has to at least keep somebody in the country in command. If he brings in an outsider, that will delay the progress on the counterinsurgency and work against his timetable as he`s walking up to his own election. It is all political for him.
BEHAR: Yes, I always wonder about Afghanistan. You know, because we should have gone in there in first place. We went into another country, as you know, that`s old history. But I always feel like --
MATALIN: Thank you for saying that.
BEHAR: I thought I`d throw that in. But should we be worried about the Taliban taking over the nuclear arsenal of Pakistan? Isn`t that the main reason we should be in that area at this point?
HUFFINGTON: It`s definitely the wrong area to be in. Al Qaeda only has about a hundred people there.
BEHAR: And the Taliban?
HUFFINGTON: Many more of them are in Pakistan. We are now trying to --
BEHAR: So we shouldn`t be in Afghanistan, we should be in Pakistan?
HUFFINGTON: We should definitely not be in Afghanistan. Because what`s happening, first of all, we have an extremely unreliable ally in Karzai who sounds increasingly deranged with his statements. And that`s really the main problem with the policy. You cannot have real counterinsurgency if you don`t have the right partners. And we don`t have the right partners.
MATALIN: The counterinsurgency is the population centric protection. So you don`t get these villages who are doing well against the Taliban. The Afghan police forces are doing very badly. That part is not working yet. But the nuclear capacity and those who would seek it out in Waziristan, you`re right, no man`s land between Pakistan and Afghanistan -
BEHAR: Right.
MATALIN: And we can`t get in there. You need boots on the ground. The president`s doing good work with drones but we can`t let them get nuclearized or a dirty bomb or another failed state. It`s complicated precaution.
BEHAR: Isn`t that why we`re there, Arianna, and why they have to stay there?
HUFFINGTON: Well one of the problems is that we are losing the war for hearts and minds which is theoretically essential to counterinsurgency. Look at what China is doing. China spending billions of dollars buying minerals and building up their own economy while we are losing the hearts and souls of the Afghani people. And the drones that Mary mentioned unfortunately are killing many innocent civilians on a recurring basis. So it`s just basically the wrong policy at the wrong time. The president has too much reverence for establishments and McChrystal was the establishment.
BEHAR: Mary, are you relishing a little bit the fact that the left is all over Obama?
HUFFINGTON: It`s not about the left. It`s what George Will was saying about Afghanistan.
BEHAR: No, I`m not just talking about Afghanistan. I`m talking about a lot of stuff. I`m talking about BP, the I`m talking about the economy, I`m talking about jobs. The Left is all over Obama. Are you enjoying it? Tell me when we come back.
MATALIN: No - no, OK.
BEHAR: We`ll continue this after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Mary Matalin and Arianna Huffington. Let`s talk a little bit about the oil spill because Obama had a six-month moratorium deep water drilling and the judge is now blocking that. Then the White House is going to appeal that. I mean, do you think the judge made the right decision? I mean, it`s about jobs, I presume, right?
MATALIN: Marty Feldman who lives there knows what`s going on.
BEHAR: Marty Feldman, the comedian?
MATALIN: Yes, isn`t this amazing how we all multi-task. We`re all multitasking now. By night he`s a comedian, by day, he`s saving jobs.
BEHAR: Yes OK.
MATALIN: It was the legality was arbitrary and capricious and it violated their own regulatory rules that the interior set up. They did have a one-month moratorium which was rational.
BEHAR: Right.
MATALIN: They sent in their S.W.A.T. team, they cleared all the rigs, and then because the Left was so upset about the whole offshore drilling, which is Obama policy, he`s put on this moratorium for a political reason and the judge lifted it.
BEHAR: See that`s one of the reasons that the left is ticked off at him.
HUFFINGTON: Let me just say something. Why is it the Left? Why isn`t it any common sense wise person who says if you don`t know how to cap a well if something goes wrong, you should not be down there? It used to be on the Left to have this very basic commonsensical response. BP clearly doesn`t know what to do. No oil company knows what to do if there`s a problem. We`ve had a major catastrophe. We`re not over it. Can`t we just take a break and work things out? To me, we are seeing again and again this lack of judgment among our leaders, whether it`s McChrystal just speaking completely out of turn or the judge, who I understand just we`re coming here, I got an e-mail, apparently he has stock in a drilling company.
BEHAR: A-ha.
MATALIN: Oh, Arianna don`t do that grassy knoll stuff.
HUFFINGTON: No, no - it`s -
BEHAR: Conflict of interest.
HUFFINGTON: Conflict of interest is not grassy knoll, we have to confirm it or not.
MATALIN: But brought the suit. It was not the oil companies, it was the vessel owners and the venders who supply the vessel owners. And I think it`s increasingly clear that BP`s unsafe practices are unique to BP. The other companies use different riser, they use different cement, they respond to the kind of pressure that they`re seeing at the outset there. What the judge is saying is because you have one bad actor, you can`t capriciously.
BEHAR: It`s a little scary though isn`t it Mary?
MATALIN: I live there. It is scary.
BEHAR: Yes your husband was obsessed with it on the television. He`s one of the great speakers on this topic.
MATALIN: I am for safe practices. Eleven people died. But this was an excessive overreach. It was political. And my husband is generally obsessive. He`s not just obsessive on this topic. But it`s a really - it`s a horrible mess. But this is not the answer to it.
BEHAR: Right, all right.
HUFFINGTON: But here`s the thing. If the other companies that are supposedly better knew how to stop the flow of oil, they would have helped, right? They clearly don`t know anything.
BEHAR: Yes, they don`t know how to do it.
HUFFINGTON: That`s really my point. Until and unless we find out how we can deal with another disaster like that, we can`t just go on and say, there isn`t going to be a disaster because, remember, that`s what BP said.
BEHAR: Right.
HUFFINGTON: There`s absolutely no chance.
BEHAR: they have no credibility as far as I`m concerned. I have to go. We`ve run out of --
MATALIN: Send that to the MMS, the Obama MMS.
BEHAR: We`re mad at him for that, too. Thanks for joining me, everybody. And for more information on the new radio show go to bothsidesradio.com. Good night, everybody.
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