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Joy Behar Page
Women Who Love Killers; "Real Housewives" Dish
Aired June 24, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, Joran Van Der Sloot is getting letters from women at the Castro-Castro prison. Personally, I wouldn`t know what to write. Love your work? What?
Then a masseuse claims Al Gore was guilty of unwanted sexual touching back in 2006. She doesn`t say where he touched her, but I`m guessing it was right around the polar ice cap region.
And the guys from the "Jersey Shore" had no idea that the shirtless photos they took for the "Village Voice" newspaper were for the gay pride issue. Yes. I guess they were so engrossed in the Brothers Karamazov, they forgot to ask.
That and more right now.
Joran Van Der Sloot claims he has been receiving marriage proposals from women all over the world. He even says that one woman wants to bear his child. I don`t really get it. Why are prisoners so popular with women? Should single guys just skip the dating scene and just hold up liquor stores now?
With me to discuss this phenomenon of women dating prisoners are Sheila Isenberg, author of "Women Who Love Men Who Kill" and her upcoming book "Muriel`s War"; Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author of "Till Death Do Us Part: Love and marriage in the mind of the killer spouse"; and Pam Booker whose husband is serving life without parole for first degree murder.
Ok everybody. Sheila, let me start with you. Are these women desperate for a man or what is going on here?
SHEILA ISENBERG, AUTHOR, "WOMEN WHO LOVE MEN WHO KILL": Well, it`s complicated, but one of the things you said struck me. When I was writing the book, I interviewed a lot of people in the correctional system. And a prison guard told me it was easier for the men he was guarding to get a date than it was for him to get a date.
BEHAR: Wow. And so, are the women -- what do they want? What are they looking for, in your opinion?
ISENBERG: Well, the women I interviewed all had abused pasts either in their childhood, their early marriages, their first relationships. It was either psychological or sexual or physical or verbal.
BEHAR: I see.
ISENBERG: And they were looking for safe relationships. A guy behind bars cannot hurt you. And they`re also looking to be in control. If you`re in love with a man behind bars for life, you`re in control. You decide when to visit him, when to take the phone calls. You`re his liaison with the criminal justice system. And basically you`re on top maybe for the first time in your life.
BEHAR: I see. Let me ask you Pam then because you married your husband Lance after he was convicted of first degree murder.
PAM BOOKER, HUSBAND SERVING LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE: Yes, that`s correct.
BEHAR: Does anything that she`s saying apply to you? Were you abused as a child?
BOOKER: No.
BEHAR: You were not?
BOOKER: Not at all.
BEHAR: Do you like the idea that he`s safely away from you?
BOOKER: No. No, I wish he was out.
BEHAR: So what`s the attraction?
BOOKER: Actually, Lance and I were together before he went to prison. We just were not legally married. We had been together for some time -- a few years.
BEHAR: And then he`s convicted of first degree murder, then you married him anyway. Why bother going through it?
BOOKER: At that point -- first, let me say that Lance was -- is innocent of the crime for which he was convicted.
BEHAR: Well, they all say that.
BOOKER: Yes, they do all say that.
BEHAR: Every prisoner says that.
BOOKER: But there are facts and the evidence to back up his claim. I knew knowing him and having lived through that, I knew that we did have that on his side. I also don`t -- you know, we committed, even though we didn`t legally commit, we had committed to one another. And at that point, it was like for better or for worse, why not?
BEHAR: I see. For better, for worse or for jail.
ISENBERG: Well, I just want to jump in.
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead. Jump in Sheila.
ISENBERG: Joy, can I jump in and say something.
BEHAR: Yes, sure. Yes.
ISENBERG: I think that Pam`s situation is very different from the majority of women who get involved with men in prison for a long time who are convicted of murder. Because she knew the guy beforehand and she had a relationship beforehand.
But -- and I wouldn`t want to insult her in any way or demean her in any way, but I will say that the fact that she says he`s innocent is pretty standard. Because it`s really hard to admit to yourself that you love someone who committed a murder. So most of these women sort of deny the fact that the murder was actually done by the man they love.
They say he was drunk or he was on drugs or his friends made him do it or he was too young or he just didn`t do it. And that in many cases --
BOOKER: And also there is a lot of --
BEHAR: Let her finish. Go ahead, finish the sentence. Once a woman? I`m sorry.
ISENBERG: I was going to say in many cases once a woman admits to herself a man did it, she will end the relationship. For example, Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer, married a woman named Carol Ann Boone, and she maintained his innocence in the face of all kinds of evidence. He was convicted.
And then down the road after they had a child together, she actually somehow ended up believing that he was indeed guilty and she ended the relationship; so that`s pretty much the pattern.
BEHAR: I see.
(CROSS TALKING)
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: There`s a celebrity component here with Joran Van Der Sloot and the Scott Peterson, they`re very good looking.
BEHAR: And the Menendez brothers.
LUDWIG: And the Menendez brothers. For some women, this is the closest they`re going to get to celebrity. They have a much better chance at meeting Joran Van Der Sloot than Brad Pitt. You know, Brad Pitt`s not in their future. Joran Van Der Sloot may be.
BEHAR: Who said that?
LUDWIG: Me. Dr. Robi. Hello.
BEHAR: Dr. Robi is speaking. Dr. Robi Ludwig.
ISENBERG: Dr. Robi, that`s my favorite line. I used to say they had a better chance meeting a convicted murderer, convicted notorious celebrity murderer than Brad Pitt. But I have now changed it; I have updated it to Bono. I say, they have a chance at meeting Joran Van Der Sloot than Bono. But the Brad Pitt line is mine from years ago.
BEHAR: But why can`t they just meet --
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: Why can`t they marry Harry Fadoosh (ph)? Why do they have to meet Brad Pitt?
LUDWIG: There`s a fascination with celebrity and there`s a fascination with the dark side, too. We are very drawn to extremes. And also, there is this feeling amongst many of these women that when they capture the love of this man, even if he did do it, their love is so special and so powerful that they`ll be safe.
So in an odd way, if they`re with a dangerous guy, he`s a real alpha male, and maybe in some ways they`ll be protected because the love is powerful. They won`t get hurt.
BEHAR: I see.
Pam, now, you said that the reality of being a prison wife is a very lonely existence?
BOOKER: It can be. It can be.
BEHAR: I would think that -- how do your friends take it or your family?
BOOKER: Oh, my goodness. They`ve run the gamut. We found out very quickly into this process who our real friends are and who our loved ones are. We lost a few along the way.
BEHAR: Yes.
BOOKER: My family and our close friends -- or my close friends, I should say, they knew him before. So they also knew and had followed the evidence. When we say -- when I say that he`s innocent, it`s not based on my belief in him or my love for him. It`s based on the evidence. He was essentially a witness that was treated as a defendant.
LUDWIG: But I have a question too. How do you feel you`re different from the women that don`t know the Joran Van Der Sloots and Scott Peterson? How do you feel you`re different from these women because I imagine you must feel very different?
(CROSS TALKING)
BOOKER: In some ways, I think -- I understand everything about the celebrity and the attraction. I think it`s a false -- it`s a false identity, if you will. It`s a false attraction. Because the bottom line is you are married to a convicted murderer in this case.
We believe my husband is innocent as I said. It proves out, however he`s convicted of a crime. So in the face of the law -- exactly, in the face of the law he`s a convicted murderer.
We are not treated any better because of his celebrity. His case happened to be a high profile case. Granted it was on a local level as opposed to an international level of Joran Van Der Sloot. However --
BEHAR: Small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a small pond.
BOOKER: We had some unwanted attention.
BEHAR: He`s not getting out, right?
BOOKER: No.
BEHAR: So what are you supposed to do with the rest of your life? Just see him once in a while and drive up to where he is near Montreal? What are you supposed to do with that?
BOOKER: We are working on the appellate process to have his conviction reversed. In the meantime, we are fortunate that we live in New York State which does have what they call conjugal visits or New York State communion --
BEHAR: How often?
BOOKER: At the facility he`s at, we go every other month. And it`s a family reunion --
BEHAR: That`s more sex than most married people have.
LUDWIG: That`s the answer. You`re in a prison, have good sex.
BOOKER: However, it`s with the whole family.
ISENBERG: Can I jump in for a minute Joy?
BEHAR: Sure, please do.
ISENBERG: I just wanted to say that these relationships for the most part are whether it`s with a celebrity murderer or celebrity accused murderer like Joran Van Der Sloot or whether it`s with a garden variety convicted murderer like Pam`s husband, these relationships are, for the most part, exciting, romantic and thrilling.
And they`re very different than the garden variety, the ordinary marriage or relationship with the dirty socks on the floor and did you pay the bills and are you picking up the kids? So there`s an element in all of these relationships of thrill, excitement, adventure and romance.
BEHAR: I can see that.
(CROSS TALKING)
ISENBERG: And I think that`s what holds people together.
BEHAR: But also you can trust them. You know where they are.
LUDWIG: You know where they are. And also these men tend to focus on their wives a lot better.
ISENBERG: Well, that`s what I said in the beginning.
(CROSS TALKING)
LUDWIG: They focus on their wives a lot better because, you know that is what they do.
BOOKER: It`s not even -- it`s not focus.
LUDWIG: A lot of these people are sociopathic. So they do know how to encapture the person who is a liaison for them to the outside world.
BOOKER: I must be married to the wrong person then.
BEHAR: You think you`re married to the wrong person?
ISENBERG: I wouldn`t say -- I wouldn`t want to say they`re sociopathic but I would say that if someone`s in a prison -- you know a con man can also be pulling a con. So there`s the element of that.
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: Ok.
ISENBERG: But what you said before, I don`t -- you know, what you said before about focus, it`s the most intense and powerful focus that anyone in a relationship can have. It`s love letters, it`s poetry, it`s --
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: It`s kind of like stalking without them being there, which is like a safe way to stalk.
ISENBERG: Exactly.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s weird.
LUDWIG: Well, there`s a lot -- there`s a lot of fantasy when you -- when you aren`t with somebody on a daily basis, then you can romanticize them.
BEHAR: Yes wouldn`t that be --
LUDWIG: Who doesn`t want to be the recipient of being romanticized -- everyone does.
BEHAR: True.
Just before we go, Van Der Sloot claims also that one woman wants to have his child. Now that already is really even creepier because why would you want to transfer --
ISENBERG: Well I don`t --
BEHAR: -- this type of genetic possibilities on to another human being? Sheila.
ISENBERG: Well, Carol Ann Boone had a baby with -- she had a baby with Ted Bundy. But as I truly believe that her -- anyone who wrote to him saying, I want to have your baby, it`s just another attempt by that woman to stand out from the crowd from all the women who are writing to him so that maybe she can be the one that he picks.
BEHAR: Yes.
ISENBERG: Because they`re all vying to be picked by him --
BEHAR: Ok, thanks --
ISENBERG: -- and they all want to be the one.
BEHAR: Thank you, ladies, very much.
Ok, up next, the real housewife you love to hate, Danielle Staub joins me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) just crazy, that`s what you are.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am? Am I? So now you just said that nice and clear again, but this time to my face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I`m crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m not afraid of you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t you ever call me crazy. Ever, ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Those are the toughest housewives I`ve ever seen. And right in the middle of that heated argument is my next guest. She attracts trouble the way Mother Teresa attracted lepers. She`s a "Real Housewife" of New Jersey and author of "The Naked Truth".
Welcome Danielle Staub. Hi, Danielle.
DANIELLE STAUB, AUTHOR, "THE NAKED TRUTH": Hi Joy.
BEHAR: You know women in prison don`t fight like that.
STAUB: I`ve been there and actually, they do.
BEHAR: Do they really?
STAUB: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, is this -- do these reality shows, are these things for real or are you pushing it?
STAUB: Well, I keep it real.
BEHAR: You keep it real.
STAUB: But I think that`s the problem with the rest of them. They don`t want me to keep it so real because they`re afraid I`m going to out them.
BEHAR: Who the other women?
STAUB: Yes I think so.
BEHAR: What do you mean, you`re going to out them as what?
STAUB: Well, just really to make them keep it real. Like they`re just so busy calling me out on everything that I`ve ever done in my life and now that I`m owning up to all of it in "The Naked Truth" they are finding it very difficult now to look in the mirror and face their own demons.
So they made me faced my own and I think it`s time for them to face theirs. So watch what happens in Season two because I`ve just begun.
BEHAR: Oh, boy. But Dina had just left the show and she says that`s because of you.
STAUB: Isn`t that easy for her to push blame? I mean, she`s the youngest of 11 kids. I guess she`s got to blame somebody all the time for something.
BEHAR: Well, why did she leave then in your opinion?
STAUB: Well, I think you`re going to have to watch the reunion and see. It`s not an opinion; it`s a fact, actually.
BEHAR: Of why she left?
STAUB: And it wasn`t me.
BEHAR: You don`t want to tell me?
STAUB: It wasn`t me.
BEHAR: It wasn`t you.
She says it was.
STAUB: Well, that`s easy for her to say.
BEHAR: Then there`s Theresa, she also is attacking you. Are they all wrong Danielle?
STAUB: Are they all wrong? No. I think everybody is rightfully in the place that they need to be in. And if that`s their feelings about me, I`m fine with that. But they don`t call me up to tell me about it, just steer away from me then, period.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. You`re a tough lady.
So let`s talk about this sex tape. Everyone has a sex tape these days. Why does --
STAUB: You have one?
BEHAR: No, I don`t. I`m waiting for Janet Reno to come out with hers. But I mean, why is this like everyone has to have a sex tape these days?
STAUB: I don`t know if we have to have one or not. I just think the ones that are the most interesting are the ones that are sought after, I guess. I don`t know.
BEHAR: What possesses you to make a sex tape?
STAUB: I made one when I was in a relationship. It was meant for he and I.
BEHAR: Then what happened?
STAUB: I don`t know.
BEHAR: How did it get out?
STAUB: Someone else got their hands on it.
BEHAR: Because the guy let it out?
STAUB: No, I`m pretty sure it wasn`t him.
BEHAR: Then it was you. There were only two people in it, right? Who was running the camera?
STAUB: No other people can -- I was holding it at one point, he was holding it at another.
BEHAR: That`s quite the calisthenics technique. How did your tape get out -- I asked you that already. One of the housewives said that you released it. What do you say to that? One of them said you sent it out.
STAUB: Yes. Poor pathetic little Jacqueline; she needs anger management.
BEHAR: What`s the matter with Jacqueline?
STAUB: I think she has some really serious problems in her --
BEHAR: Theresa has a problem. Dina has a problem.
STAUB: We all have problems. I have problems. I`ve addressed all of them in my book.
BEHAR: But when you get together with these women, is there anyone you get along with?
STAUB: No. No one --
BEHAR: Nobody.
STAUB: I like it that way.
BEHAR: And you like it that way.
STAUB: I do. I don`t like them.
BEHAR: That makes you feel comfortable. Does it remind you of something?
(CROSS TALKING)
STAUB: I`m comfortable with myself. I think that they`re not so much. I don`t know if it`s a past life or what. But I think when they look at me, they see all the things about themselves that maybe they don`t like and they don`t want to address. And I`m making them address them. So they --
BEHAR: Do they get along with each other?
STAUB: I`m not so sure they do. No, I think they`re really commiserating.
BEHAR: Commiserating with each other?
STAUB: Yes.
BEHAR: About you?
STAUB: Well, I don`t know. That seems that`s all they talk about is me.
BEHAR: So how much money did you make from the tape?
STAUB: I haven`t made a penny.
BEHAR: Nothing?
STAUB: No. At this point, there`s nothing in my bank account.
BEHAR: Do you regret making it? Why put yourself through that, having sex in the kitchen on tape, then not making a penny.
STAUB: You watched it?
BEHAR: No, someone told me. We have perverts around here. They all watch.
STAUB: Wow, so how was it? Really? No. I was in it, so I know. I don`t know that, you know, it was something that I ever intended for anyone else to see. I was just having fun. If it was with my husband, my ex- husband, the father of my children, would it have been ok? No one would have raised an eyebrow, because she was married. But as a single woman --
BEHAR: No one raises an eyebrow about these things any more.
STAUB: They shouldn`t. Why we do things is in the moment.
BEHAR: Yes.
STAUB: I`m in the moment, always.
BEHAR: What about the breast surgery that you had on the show. Why did you have to repair a bad breast implant?
STAUB: The implants that I have are over a decade old. Actually they were 12 years. And at that point when we were doing silicone implants. They were supposed to be replaced every seven to ten years at the latest. I had an encapsulation and a staph infection when I first had them done.
BEHAR: That was a while ago.
(CROSS TALKING)
STAUB: It was a long time ago.
BEHAR: How many years? Twenty-five years ago?
STAUB: Well, no. It was -- thank you. It was in `98 right after I had Jillian (ph).
BEHAR: Ok. 22 years.
STAUB: She`s 12, Joy. You took math at a school that I`m not going to say -- anyway, so I replaced them because it was (INAUDIBLE) they were causing me a lot of pain and a lot of discomfort and for many, many years. If I had to do that all over again, I wouldn`t have so much.
BEHAR: The doctor said you had the biggest deformities he had ever seen?
STAUB: Yes.
BEHAR: Who did these in first place, Stevie Wonder? Who put them in?
STAUB: Actually it was -- not Stevie Wonder -- I don`t know about that.
BEHAR: Dr. Stevie Wonder.
STAUB: Actually it was Steven Collin (ph); that was on Park Avenue. He was a Park Avenue doctor.
BEHAR: So he blew it.
(CROSS TALKING)
STAUB: It wasn`t -- it`s not his fault. No.
BEHAR: Whose fault is it?
STAUB: No, definitely not his fault. It was my body rejecting them. That was the third surgery I had rejecting them. Now I`m hoping that these ones will be ok.
BEHAR: Is there anything that you won`t do on the show? Anything at all?
STAUB: Well, it`s not that I won`t do things, I just won`t be fake. How`s that?
BEHAR: Except for your boobs.
STAUB: That`s the only thing. But I didn`t fake that. I kept it real. I let everyone in on the surgery.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Stay right there. We have more.
STAUB: I`m not going anywhere.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with "Real Housewives of New Jersey" star Danielle Staub. Now, Danielle, you were arrested in 1986 for some serious crimes. You were -- charges were brought against you for kidnapping and extortion. Tell me what that was about.
STAUB: Actually, I pled guilty to one out of the seven charges that were brought against me and it was the lesser of the charges, and that was under the recommendation of the prosecutor`s office, who did recommend in the end probation for me of five years.
BEHAR: What was the kidnapping about?
STAUB: I didn`t kidnap anybody, actually. I was really charged with all the things that were going on in the home when I was arrested. And like I said, I pled guilty to the lesser of all the charges. It explains everything in the book as to how that came to be.
BEHAR: Yes. We`ll have to read the book to find out.
(CROSS TALKING)
STAUB: Yes, evidently.
BEHAR: You also write about your -- that you were put up for adoption as a baby by your biological mother who was a 14-year-old girl from Italy.
STAUB: Yes. From what I was told, the story was told to me that my mother was 14 when she got pregnant with me.
BEHAR: And where was this?
STAUB: When she got pregnant --
BEHAR: Where were you?
STAUB: -- she was in Italy.
BEHAR: In Italy?
STAUB: Yes. And she was brought here to the states by my aunt. And she gave birth to me at 15.
BEHAR: And then what happened?
STAUB: Well, what happened after that was I was adopted by a family, and my childhood was pretty much taken from me. I was sexually abused.
BEHAR: By whom?
STAUB: And passed around, by family members and friends.
BEHAR: By the adopted family.
STAUB: Yes.
BEHAR: Family members and friends? How many people abused you?
STAUB: To count probably four. But it started at a very young age, so I`m not sure how many in totality it would be. But as far back as I remember there were four that consistently did abuse me.
BEHAR: You were raped as a child?
STAUB: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: By grown men?
STAUB: Yes.
BEHAR: Did anything become of them?
STAUB: A couple of them have now passed on.
BEHAR: Good.
STAUB: So yes. No loss there.
BEHAR: I mean, that sounds pretty heavy duty stuff.
STAUB: It is.
BEHAR: I think that that and the fact that you were adopted and probably felt --
STAUB: A lot of abandonment issues when I was a child. Yes.
BEHAR: A lot of issues there.
How does all of that impact your life now?
STAUB: Right now, it impacts it in a very positive way. Because I feel that now going through all of this and then being very broken at the very end of Season one by kindred spirits, I thought. My spirit was completely broken as a mother, as a woman, as a person. And I did feel like a victim at that time.
Now I don`t feel like that anymore because through the writing process and also taping Season two, in conjunction with writing my memoir, I felt like it was very healing for me to relive all those things. And that everything does really -- and I can`t believe I`m going to say this, but once it hits the air, you know it`s out there. It happens for a reason. You have to figure out those reasons as you`re living your life out loud and continue to live your life the way it`s supposed because it will all make sense in the end.
BEHAR: Have you had any therapy?
STAUB: I did have therapy, yes.
BEHAR: I mean that kind of a heavy duty childhood requires some heavy therapy.
STAUB: Yes, when I was very young I did. In my 20s, after the arrest, it was mandatory. That was very helpful for me. There were women`s groups that I was a part of. And I really -- I think that I connected with a lot of different walks of life. And I added to the flavor of it and to make sure that I came through it victorious and stay that way for my children and for me.
BEHAR: Well, good luck. Good luck to you. I don`t happen to think everything happens for a reason but --
STAUB: I do. I have to believe that. I`m not sure I like that but you have to make sense of it.
BEHAR: Thanks for doing this anyway.
STAUB: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Check out her book, "The Naked Truth". And of course, you can see Danielle on the "Real Housewives of New Jersey", Mondays at 10:00 p.m. on Bravo.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Former vice president and Nobel Peace prize winner Al Gore is being accused of making sexual advances to a female massage therapist in 20006. Is this claim true? Will the story have a happy ending? And does this make Gore the first sex machine with solar panels? Joining me now to talk about it are comedian Christian Finnegan, author Paula Froelich whose book "Mercury In Retrograde "is now out in paperback and actor Jeffery Self. OK Paula according to the masseuse, what happen?
PAULA FROELICH, AUTHOR, MERCURY IN RETROGRADE: Well one report that I read, which is my favorite, and I can only imagine him doing this in a chair shaped like a land, he forced her to drink grand mariner, then forcibly kissed her with tongue and grinded on her.
BEHAR: And grinded on her?
FROELICH: Yes which I can only imagine what kind of Barry White song he had playing in the background.
JEFFERY SELF, ACTOR: I think it wasn`t so much the grinding that offended her, is then he made her watch a three hour slide show on "The Plight Of The Polar Bears."
BEHAR: Oh my god. There`s the deal breaker.
FROELICH: But then my other favorite is while she`s massaging him, he insists that she massage his abdomen. Now, I don`t know if you`ve ever had that done --
BEHAR: I don`t like that.
FROELICH: No, you have to have like adult depends on. Because all of a sudden they`re massages and --
SELF: A three-hour massage.
BEHAR: Three hours.
SELF: Three hours.
BEHAR: He paid $540 for a three-hour -- who gets a three-hour massage.
SELF: and took her to dinner, at least, I hope. That`s a --
BEHAR: Even after an hour. I can do an hour and a half, but then it`s like stop touching me!
FROELICH: Well he was all lubed up on grand Marnier.
CHRISTIAN FINNEGAN, COMEDIAN: Why do you always go for the ugly masseuse, always. You always want to go for the sort of hulking 500 pound sort of Ukraine --
SELF: Well she was an older woman, right? I mean she was --
BEHAR: Fifty four years old.
SELF: Fifty four years old, yes.
FROELICH: It`s not exactly a spring chicken. I mean, come on.
BEHAR: I mean now, Gore`s office -- of course, they have no comment. What should he do? I mean this is now mushrooming out into a tabloid story.
FROELICH: Oh, stop. He`s going to go live in his house, his $8.8 million house in California.
SELF: But it`s also like really cool to find dirt on Al Gore right now.
FINNEGAN: Oh absolutely.
SELF: Kind of the new -- it`s the new edge, I guess it`s the new Jesse James, I guess we`re making him into.
BEHAR: Well the thing is that when he and Tipper split up, I mean I was one of the people on TV saying, that is not -- we`re growing apart. That`s baloney. You`re growing a part in your hair. That`s where you growing apart. You don`t grow apart from your wife and then just leave. You have to find another one before you leave.
FINNEGAN: Yes, that`s probably true.
BEHAR: Yes.
FINNEGAN: But the other things he might be telling the truth here is that it`s like taking down Al Gore is like a multimillion dollar industry. You know how ma people think if they can make a fraud out of Al Gore, that global warming will just go away?
BEHAR: That`s true.
FINNEGAN: It makes me think if this stuff had come out, and then they announced divorce, then he`s definitely done it. But the fact that this is all come after the fact, he could justifiably be like, no.
BEHAR: But this woman, this masseuse was going to be -- she`s considering suing Gore for a million dollar. Before she went to "The National Enquirer." this could be just one woman, crazy masseuse, making this up.
(CROSSTALK)
FROELICH: Yes and she`s got Monica Lewinsky type proof on her pants.
BEHAR: She does?
FROELICH: Uh huh.
FINNEGAN: She said she did.
FROELICH: Uh huh she`s got a pair of pants.
FINNEGAN: Does she still have them, though?
FROELICH: Mm-hmm. A pair of pants that she never dry cleaned. And you know, let`s be honest, at the end of the day, a politician cheating --
BEHAR: That`s disgusting.
FROELICH: Kind of like a pro sports person cheating. Why are we in shock?
BEHAR: Yes but you know what about the rumors about him and Larry David`s ex-wife, what about that? Are those true? You know something, Paul.
SELF: Awkward pause.
FROELICH: Allegedly they`re not true, Joy.
BEHAR: They`re not true.
FROELICH: Allegedly, they`re not true.
(LAUGHTER)
FROELICH: I don`t know what you`re talking about, Joy.
BEHAR: Look she put out a major denial on that.
FROELICH: Of course she did. They spent a lot of time together. Obviously she had an affair on Larry. Was it her first? Who knows? Either way, my sources in Washington say he`s a little more stripper than Tipper. So at the end of the day --
(CROSSTALK)
SELF: I want that on a t-shirt.
BEHAR: Yes and the masseuse is down here.
FROELICH: Lory is up here and the masseuse is down here and you kind of like, you know, Jennifer Flowers wasn`t just loved by Bill.
FINNEGAN: I feel like it is my opportunity to stand up to the ex files present, slightly. If it is true that he was grinding on this masseuse, you could look at that frictions a sort of alternative energy on some level.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It does create heat, you`re right. I like that.
FINNEGAN: If we can harness the energy of like a junior high prom, you know, that dry humping.
FROELICH: But you know, he did on her pants.
(CROSSTALK)
SELF: You can call me Al, I like that a lot.
BEHAR: That`s good.
SELF: You can call me Al.
BEHAR: Thank you, Paul Simon. OK, The Jersey Shore guys, OK, they graced -- just the men, they`re gracing the of this week`s "Village Voice" newspaper which happens to be the gay pride issue. It turns out that they`re comfortable with the word gay though, they say. Because, for starters, it`s only one syllable.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Some of these, some people - Jeffrey Calling - these guys, gay icons.
SELF: I`m totally cool with them being gay icons. I mean I don`t necessarily think -- they`re saying, at first, they were saying that they were like upset about it. Like they were upset about the gay thing, but they`ve since cleared that up, right?
BEHAR: Yes.
SELF: Because I don`t think they`re really against any sort of publicity. But I don`t necessarily think they need to give them the label of gay icon. I mean I think we have enough senseless people who are --
BEHAR: I don`t understand the term gay icon because --
SELF: Well you`re a gay icon.
BEHAR: If I`m a gay icon, how could the situation be a gay icon? I don`t get that. I mean even what`s his name? Levi Johnston is being called a gay icon.
SELF: Well I think people looking at them as the beefcake gay icon thing, of like the `70s and such.
FROELICH: Oh stop. Like the term supermodel today. Everyone`s a supermodel. You know, my dog, Carl is a supermodel.
SELF: But I mean I kind of think, they speak to a demographic that`s very not gay. And I think it`s hip that they`re saying nice things about gay people. I think that`s real helpful.
FROELICH: Yes but that doesn`t make them an icon.
SELF: I used to intern -- I used to intern at the "Village Voice" in the 90s.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wait, wait, one at a time.
SELF: I use to intern at the "Village Voice" in the early `90s, in like the height of the sort of the, you know, very earnest take back the night, sort of pro gay rights, pro aggressive causes -
BEHAR: And what happen?
SELF: And to see the "Village Voice" like fetishizing gay bashers is just a little - and I`m not saying, OK yes, I`m saying they`re gay bashers. No, I don`t know that. But I`m just saying it does seem a little weird.
BEHAR: What makes you think they`re gay bashers?
SELF: I mean you are going to tell me you are going to look at those three guys and say none of them has ever had a gay guy before in junior high school?
FROELICH: -- have you seen -
BEHAR: Why, they look like bullies. They look like they -
SELF: They do look like bullies. They do but I think, you know, I think positivity comes out of any time somebody in the media can say something positive about gay people and if they`re not guy, you know, and I think to put that sort of positivity on a face like the situation is --
FROELICH: Yes but they didn`t know, that`s the point. They didn`t go out there saying, oh, make me a gay icon, da, da, da. They were like - what?
SELF: It sort of fell into their lap.
FROELICH: And then now they`re like, no, it`s cool.
BEHAR: No they just, he said, listen to what he said. What`s his name, The Situation. He said it`s not for me to judge somebody`s sex preference. And in my opinion the situation looks as good as hell and that is my main concern.
FROELICH: I love narcissism.
BEHAR: I love it.
FROELICH: Narcissism cans sexuality that`s the name.
FINNEGAN: These dudes know the clock is ticking, you know what I mean.
SELF: Sure.
FINNEGAN: They`re doing any photo shoot. Cat fancy, ebony.
BEHAR: Yes, cat fancy, now that`s a magazine I want to be on the cover of. And if anybody`s watching. OK a new poll found that most people reach their sexual peak at the ripe old age of 36. And I`ll let you know if it`s true when I get there. OK, guys? Shut up.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So Paula, aren`t you hoping this isn`t true?
FROELICH: Well, you know, since it`s ten years off for me as well, I kind of feel like, watch out, boys. No, honestly, that`s a load of hoo- hah. It`s also done by the garlic association.
BEHAR: Yes, I know that`s why Quai garlic did this study. What does that tell you?
FROELICH: By the way, fyi, fun fact, I once dated Bon Jovi`s masseuse a couple of years ago.
SELF: Three-hour massages.
FROELICH: Uh huh, and he took garlic pills. And do you know why nobody has sex after a certain age? Because after a certain age, if you take garlic pills you sweat it out and you smell like hell.
BEHAR: Really? I thought they were odorless. Oh, how disgusting.
FROELICH: No they`re odorless going in, then coming back out, not so much.
BEHAR: They also said, let me give you another point, they also said in the study that most people prefer to have sex with the lights off. Do you?
FINNEGAN: I think once you get into your 40s and 50s, it`s probably a good cause for both people.
SELF: I think it depends on who you`re with, I guess, you know.
FINNEGAN: Did we really need to have a study to know that people have sex less as they get older? Because --
BEHAR: That isn`t really true. That isn`t really true. I mean I saw a factoid that said that basically in nursing homes, this Viagra, it`s like the crack cocaine of the nursing homes. They jump in each other`s bed.
FINNEGAN: Well I think they like the idea of having sex, but they need the Viagra because it`s not a physical imperative any more. I think this study was commissioned by the one guy --
BEHAR: No, no, it isn`t a physical imperative. They just can`t get it up.
FROELICH: By the way, have you not seen that show "Sunset Days" those are some crazy, horny geriatrics.
SELF: A lot of - mingling.
FROELICH: Oh yes. I love them.
SELF: Gives me hope for the future at 36, that I`ve got 13 years before I really enjoy sex. Gives me a lot of --
FROELICH: Thirteen years, really?
SELF: Thirteen years -- first of all -
FINNEGAN: I`ve reached 37 -
SELF: So you`re done.
BEHAR: You`re done -
FROELICH: I`m done.
BEHAR: Women reach their sexual peak in their 40s, in my opinion. And then it may go downhill after that, I`m not sure. Right. I`ll shut up. Thanks, guys. Catch Jeff in eight new episodes of "JEFFERY AND COLD CASSEROLE," whatever that means. We`ll have to find out by going to laggo -- laggo? Logo. Can I just put my glasses on. All right starting July 9th at midnight on Logo. And you can see Christian at the Tampa Improv June 30th to July 3rd. Back after a break. I promise I`ll take these glasses off.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The entire U.S. population depends on the president, but who does the president depend on? His personal doctor. With me now to talk about that role is Dr. Connie Mariano, former White House doctor who served Presidents Bush Sr. And Junior, as well as, President Clinton. She`s the author of the new book "The White House Doctor, My Patients Were Presidents." Welcome to the show, Connie.
DR. CONNIE MARIANO, AUTHOR, "THE WHITE HOUSE DOCTOR": Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: Can I call you Connie?
MARIANO: Yes, please do.
BEHAR: OK, Dr. Connie, now you had to take blood from President Clinton for a DNA sample during the Lewinsky scandal. Tell me about that.
MARIANO: Well you know, all throughout the Lewinsky scandal, we believed in him. I believed in him and thought, he must be innocent. And Dave Kendall, his attorney came to me and said we have an order from Ken Starr that the White House physician must draw blood on the president. And I said, I don`t want to do. And he says, you have no choice. You`re being ordered because you`re a military officer. And so we set up a weekend, a Saturday to do that, it was late in the evening, about 10:00 at night. And the president came down from the state ding room. He actually sort of matter of fact sat down and said, go ahead and do your thing. And Dave Kendall, the attorney was there. Robert Bittman from Ken Starr`s office there was and a woman FBI agent. And we were the only ones there when we drew his blood.
BEHAR: Did you know at that point that he`d been accused of having this affair with Lewinsky, right?
MARIANO: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: Did you discuss with it the president at all?
MARIANO: No.
BEHAR: It was strictly take the blood and that was it.
MARIANO: take the blood, do your job.
BEHAR: So what was your response when you saw him confess to the deed?
MARIANO: You know, I was shocked and I was disappointed. I like a lot of the American --
BEHAR: Like the rest of the country.
MARIANO: You know we were -- I watched it the room next door in the map room. He was in the map room, I was in my office next door. Came on the air and I thought, oh, dear. I just felt really -- it was very sad.
BEHAR: Did it change your relationship with him after you saw the confession and knew it was true?
MARIANO: You know I realize that my patients are human, more than most people. And it didn`t because we had had such a good relationship all along.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARIANO: I was just disappointing, in the end.
BEHAR: Well you know, this is an unfair question probably. But all of you, the fact that they could impeach him and that they almost took him down and everything, you were a part of that. Do you feel guilty about that at all? He was a friend, I take it.
MARIANO: He is a friend. He is a friend. And the whole family. And you`re sort of marked -- because I would get comments from physicians and medical groups, oh you must be Clinton`s doctor. And they would sort of make little snide remarks on the side. So you`re sort of labeled. And I said, you know, he`s human like everybody else trying to do his job. And you sort of move forward beyond that. You learn to forgive and move on.
BEHAR: Yes, well it`s pretty well known that he`s a ladies man. I mean I`ve met him a couple of times. He`s charismatic and he`s a sexy guy. And I think that you know, when he`s around women, he probably changes his demeanor a little bit. Do you ever feel uncomfortable around him?
MARIANO: You know, it`s funny. My relationship is sort of like brother/sister. I would see him all the time. And we would joke around and kid around. But I never - I mean he never came on to me, he never made a pass.
BEHAR: No, nothing.
MARIANO: You know, it was like -- I think part of it was the respect issue. I was there, I cared about him. I took care of his wife, I took care of his daughter. And it was sort of good natured joking. But I would witness it. I would see at fund-raiser, women would come up and rub against him and giggle. I mean he sort of had that rock star charisma.
BEHAR: He definitely has it and women would be rubbing up against him? I didn`t even know you can get that close to the president at the , but --
MARIANO: That`s a security risk.
BEHAR: And where was Hillary when they were doing all this rubbing?
MARIANO: You know, she`s probably doing events. Who knows?
BEHAR: Yes, yes, you also treated her.
MARIANO: Yes, I did.
BEHAR: For a blood clot, I understand.
MARIANO: Right.
BEHAR: What was wrong with her?
MARIANO: You know she talked about it in her memoirs. She had been traveling in New York, campaigning for the senate, and then came back on a Saturday and called me and said, I don`t really want bother you, she said, but I`ve got some pain in my calf. I might have pulled a muscle. And I said well let me come in, no, I don`t want to bother you. Let me come in and take a look. And sure enough we took her to Bethesda, she had a blood clot. And I said, well standard of care is we need to put you in the hospital. And she says, no, you`re not going to do that. I have stuff to do. I have work to do. OK. So he said, OK, well you`re fortunate that they have a new medication out, we can give you these shots and we have to do this for a while. But you going to live with that? And she goes, yes, I can do that.
BEHAR: That was good.
MARIANO: So she`s pretty tough.
BEHAR: She sure is. A lot of people think she should have been president at this point. What do you think?
MARIANO: You know? I agree.
BEHAR: You do.
MARIANO: I totally agree.
BEHAR: Well, maybe she`ll be the vice presidential candidate with Obama. They`re saying that could happen and Biden could be the secretary of state.
MARIANO: Really, interesting.
BEHAR: I have heard that rumor. Were you there when President Bush choked on a pretzel? Oh, you missed that.
MARIANO: Not on my watch, dear.
BEHAR: Not on your watch. Now you`re not, obviously you`re not working under this president. But do you have any advice for him?
MARIANO: Oh, number one --
BEHAR: How could he de-stress, this poor guy in.
MARIANO: Oh gosh, step do from office? No, just kidding. I think, you know, how do you de-stress the president? The job is a pressure cooker no matter what.
BEHAR: Well you know how Clinton de-stressed, but that`s a different story.
MARIANO: Different strokes for different folks. But you know they surround themselves with their inner circle. Your friends, your buddies, whoever you can talk to, your wife. Really that`s it. Then they try to play golf.
BEHAR: Well he plays golf, then he gets criticized for it. That does help a little bit.
MARIANO: That`s part of the job is -- if you sign up for the job, you better take the criticism because they`re all going to criticize you.
BEHAR: Will you try to get him to stop smoking? He still smokes.
MARIANO: Yes. That`s a huge risk factor. You know and if he, there are medications you can try, you can try hypnosis. It`s very hard. But I think the way you can appeal is what kind of example are you setting for the American public, for children, for your children?
BEHAR: Oh I think he knows that. It`s an addiction, like any other addiction he just can`t stop. OK, Connie. Sit right there. We`ll be back after a short break with more from Dr. Connie Mariano.
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: I object to you changing your channel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the former White House doctor and first woman director of the White House medical unit, Dr. Connie Mariano. You also took care of Yasser Arafat. What was that like?
MARIANO: That was in Oslo. We were in a summit in Oslo. And we got called by the state department. Would you mind taking a look at the chairman. And I said, well, OK, this president -
BEHAR: Do I have to?
MARIANO: Do I have to? And so it was very odd. It was at the American Embassy. They had one of their agents walk me upstairs to one of the rooms up there. And I was with him with one of his bodyguards. And he injured his leg. I took a look. You`re fine. You don`t need an x-ray. You can be OK. We`ll ice it down. And he was so grateful. They used an interpreter. He was so grateful, he grabbed my hand and kissed it.
BEHAR: Oh, god.
MARIANO: And then I walked downstairs. And my nurse goes, what was that about? And I said, well you know, his leg and he kissed my hand. She goes, do you want to wash your hands? So you get called upon to take care of different people from other countries. That`s one of the things you do.
BEHAR: Really, which president was the best patient of the three that you`ve treated? The two Bushes and Clinton, right?
MARIANO: Boy, that`s a tough question. Because a lot of them, you know most of them will listen to you. Probably the more compliant was Bush Sr. He sort of listened to you. Bill would sort of argue sometimes when it came to limiting, you can`t play golf, you`ve got to take it easy, be careful with your leg after an injury. So probably Bush Sr. was a little bit more compliant.
BEHAR: Really? Well Bush Jr. - we always, I criticize him mercilessly, but I always think he`s probably a good old boy and fun to hang out with, right?
MARIANO: Yes, he`s a good guy. He`s a good guy. Misunderstood, a great guy.
BEHAR: You can be a good guy but a bad president. It`s possible. Why do presidents age so much more quickly? I mean it`s obvious in a way, the stress factor. But how much? President Obama`s only there a year and he looks like he`s aged five years. What is that? The stress?
MARIANO: Well you know part of is -- there is the stress. They`ve shown in medical studies with constant stress affects the white blood cells and your ability to fight infection. So often times you get frequent colds. But you`re always in the camera`s eye. And you can see the changes through time. If you don`t color your hair, obviously, men aren`t really too much into that. You can see more of his gray now than before.
BEHAR: Ronald Reagan, one of the, he did. He colored his hair.
MARIANO: The Hollywood guy.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARIANO: Yes, he looked good. But really, part of that job is you`re always on. You never really get time off. Even if you`re at Camp David, you`re playing golf. You`re always on the job.
BEHAR: That`s true. That takes its toll. Interesting you say that the white blood cells -- tell me about that a little bit. So the mind/body connection.
MARIANO: Oh definitely.
BEHAR: The stress can cause an illness because there`s a lot of people don`t believe that.
MARIANO: Oh people get sick -- your body responds to stress. It has memory, your heart rate goes up, you know your adrenaline`s always running, your cortisol levels are up. And so people react, their heart rate is up, their blood pressure is up.
BEHAR: Do you believe that you can have serious illnesses, like you know, cancer and heart disease, from stress?
MARIANO: I think so. I think it contributes to the body`s ability to fight any type of malignancy. It let`s -- it doesn`t identify the cancer cells as effectively and makes the cancer grow.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. What was the scariest moment that you ever had with these presidents?
MARIANO: I think it probably was when we attended the funeral of King Hussein in Morocco, and Bill Clinton, Ford, Carter and Bush flew with us on air force one. And when we got to the funeral site, they came out of the palace, and they wanted to march behind the casket into the mosque.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARIANO: They went into the street. There were a million Moroccans had flooded the street. They had bicycle racks pushing them back. There were people on the rooftop. And it was the only time in my nine years I ever saw secret service scared.
BEHAR: Thanks so much, doctor, for joining me. Her book is called "White House Doctor." good night everybody.
END
