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Joy Behar Page
Mel Gibson`s Mental Breakdown; Surviving Abuse
Aired July 14, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Mel Gibson says he was diagnosed as bipolar years ago. So I guess somewhere between "Gallipoli" and "Braveheart" he went completely nuts.
Then Bristol Palin and Levi Johnston are getting married. I heard they want a honeymoon some place exotic, you know, some place they`ve never been before. Try Barnes and Noble.
And from Marcus Welby to Ronald Reagan, James Brolin has been working for four decades. I started to read his credits today but I got exhausted and have to lie down. He`s coming here tonight.
That and more right now.
Tonight there`s new info in the Mel Gibson saga. ABC reports that Gibson was diagnosed as bipolar. TMZ said Oksana is getting menacing phone calls. And "The National Enquirer" says Oksana`s son by Timothy Dalton may have witnessed some of Mel`s alleged attacks.
What can I say about Mel Gibson other than she has issues?
Here to talk about very Mad Max are Tony Potts, weekend co-host and correspondent for Access Hollywood; Nicole Laporte, west coast reporter for "The Daily Beast"; and the author of the "Men who would be King" and psychiatrist, Dr. Gail Saltz.
Ok guys. Let`s start with here.
Mel said in a documentary that he had been previously diagnosed with bipolar disorder and he was obviously out of control on the tapes. Listen to the latest alleged tirade from RadarOnline.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just waited for you. I waited and waited until I fell asleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Waited and waited like two and a half (EXPLETIVE DELETED) minutes. Don`t you dare wake. You`re blaming me right now.
Now I`m blaming you. You went to sleep and didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t blame you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I deserve to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) first before the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Jacuzzi. I`ll burn the house down but (EXPLETIVE DELETED) first. How dare you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, it`s like you can say to him, can I have an orange, no, you can`t have an orange. No matter what you say to this nut job.
GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: He`s out of control.
BEHAR: Is he a mental case or just an abusive jerk or both?
SALTZ: You can`t really know without interviewing him. You can`t really know. Does he have bipolar disorder, you can`t know because we didn`t hear anything actually psychotic. What we heard was lack of judgment, out of control, impulsive behavior.
Could that be consistent with bipolar started, yes, it could. Could it be consistent with I`m a jerk who has anger management problems and I`m very narcissistic because I think I could scream about you doing a sexual act on me before we go in the hot tub. It could be.
We really --
BEHAR: So what would make it psychotic? I hear voices telling me that you should do a sexual act on me before I burn the house down? Is that what would make him psychotic?
SALTZ: That certainly would. But in addition, other things that just didn`t go with reality, like, I -- right. I heard this. I am the devil. You are --
BEHAR: Yes, yes. I see. Hallucinating.
SALTZ: Sort of.
BEHAR: Ok. Nicole, does anything even mental illness excuse this kind of behavior?
NICOLE LAPORTE, WEST COAST REPORTER, "THE DAILY BEAST": No, I mean nothing excuses it. I think that that just explains it. There has been a lot of talk of possible -- you know, him being bipolar. Obviously, he has a long history of alcoholism. Both those things explain it.
But no, of course in no way does it excuse it. If anything, this raises the question, why has this guy not been put on meds? Why 20 years ago, why has this still been going on over years and years and years to the point that we`re hearing this --
BEHAR: Why? You tell me.
SALTZ: You know what. It doesn`t tell that he`s not on meds. I honestly think.
BEHAR: Maybe they don`t work on him.
SALTZ: There are people who are on meds and they have break- through symptoms. There are people who stop their meds at some point. There are people who are using substances that sort of negate the effects of their meds. So we don`t know the answer to any of those.
BEHAR: You know, Tony, he was married for 28 years and raised seven kids. And we never really heard about these abusive ways before. Or did they get covered up, do you think?
TONY POTTS, ACCESS: HOLLYWOOD: well, Joy, that`s a good question because yesterday I was contacted by somebody, a woman I`ve known for a number of years who has known the Gibson family for a long time.
And she was shocked by what she heard on the tapes. She went online, she heard it. She never saw that kind of behavior. She`s seen Mel in various states of inebriation and what have you. She said it doesn`t excuse what she heard on the tape but she also said to me, you know -- something she said, he might have been set up to a certain extent.
It doesn`t mean it condones the behavior or what have you but he`s very measured in what he does. We don`t know how the tapes were edited by what he`s saying in one sense and answering to whatever she said previously. We don`t know if that`s the chronological order.
BEHAR: I don`t know about that Tony. Because it`s really like a bunch -- it`s like vomiting. How can you say that some of it is not vomiting or let`s go in the middle of the vomiting, it`s all vomiting.
POTTS: I never said that. I never said that. I`m just saying -- hold on, Joy -- just pull back for a second.
BEHAR: Sure.
POTTS: Because one of the things, we don`t know exactly how this came about in a certain sense.
By the way, it`s horrific behavior. I couldn`t listen to all of it because it was so horrible. There is no answer on that.
On the flip side, for me the juxtaposition of Mel, what I`ve witnessed and what I`ve known, I went to a set visit for "The Patriot" when they shot that movie with Heath Ledger. Heath ledger`s big breakout, Mel was all about Heath.
When we were down there, we found out -- and Mel was embarrassed that we found this out. He went in prior to production. They found a place that needed some sort of assistance locally. He does this a lot and he never wants anybody to know about it.
By the way, he put $150,000 into a women`s shelter in this small town to help them because he was appalled that they were living five to a room. Now, juxtapose that with what I know about Mel with what I heard and you wonder, what happened in the middle and maybe Dr. Saltz can answer that.
SALTZ: You know what? Those aren`t inconsistent. It`s not inconsistent to be in some circumference of your life a wonderful person who cares deeply about other people. But in your personal life, in a dynamic of what`s happening in a relationship, to either be struggling with some mental issues, to have substance abuse affect them, to be someone who can be domestically violent.
We`ve seen other actors who do wonderful things in one regard but commit acts of domestic violence.
BEHAR: It`s like being an abusive priest who gives money to Boys` Town?
SALTZ: There you go.
BEHAR: Ok. You know, he gets so worked up, you can actually hear him panting at certain points. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) were you going to say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wasn`t going to say about any earlier today. I was going to say about last night, that`s all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I let you sleep. I should have woke you up and said (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: I ask you, mental illness or emphysema? What are we --
SALTZ: Here`s the thing. You don`t know whether in his anger that has overcome him. He`s actually sort of having almost the equivalent of a panic attack. You know, he`s hyperventilating --
BEHAR: It`s a panic attack --
SALTZ: -- anxious or whether this is for dramatic effect. This is a man who`s played "Braveheart".
BEHAR: That`s true. He is a good actor.
SALTZ: He`s an actor, hello.
POTTS: No, no.
SALTZ: I`m just saying this sort of like, I am doing this to make the point to you that I am overwrought and I want to scare you.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. What do you think, Tony?
POTTS: Listen, here`s the deal. I`m a little over six-feet tall. I`m bigger than Mel, and that scares the crap out of me. I mean it`s just demonic. It`s incredible. I don`t think it`s for effect at all.
I think he`s clearly out of his mind, in some sense of a rage. When you get into a rage, you cannot account for what you`re doing. It`s horrific.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, Nicole, it`s been reported that Oksana`s son with actor Timothy Dalton may have witnessed some of these violent outbursts. How key might that be to the case?
LAPORTE: Very key. I mean the thing is remember that at this point, all we`ve heard are Oksana`s allegations and the tape. We haven`t heard anything from Mel`s camp -- very little -- not even any denials really, other than Whoopi Goldberg coming to his defense.
I mean we just -- we have so little information. As far as the tapes go, we have no context. We don`t know when this happened. We don`t know the circumstances that drove Mel into that rage. I think there`s actually this absence of information where we need to bring other people in and talk to witnesses. I think it`s very key to have someone who knows them and may have witnessed things.
BEHAR: I have to say for Whoopi that she did try to explain today that she just doesn`t think he`s a racist. She personally knows him and she didn`t he was a racist. She wasn`t really defending him.
LAPORTE: Right.
BEHAR: So let`s be clear.
LAPORTE: That`s true.
BEHAR: Tony, another key witness to come forward is Oksana`s dentist who says he has photos from when her teeth were knocked out. What`s his story? He claims that he didn`t want to go to the cops with that because she asked him not to.
POTTS: Right. The confidentiality there. But also if her teeth -- I believe it was the caps that were actually knocked off and what have you. Then again, we have no idea how this happened. Did she fall down or did Mel do it --
BEHAR: What`s the difference if it`s the cap of the tooth?
POTTS: Well, no, I understand. I`m saying, when you say teeth, you think actual teeth. If it`s a cap it`s a little bit different. I`m not defending anybody.
BEHAR: Why? Why is it different? Tell me why?
POTTS: Well, because a cap falls off easier than a whole damn tooth coming to get knocked out.
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: Something`s going to come off.
SALTZ: If contact was made between a fist and a face --
POTTS: Absolutely. That`s what he`s saying. He even offered, he says, to have her stay at his house because he felt that she was so scared of what was going on. This is obviously a situation that is on fire and needs to be put out quickly.
BEHAR: Ok, so there are a couple of witnesses that we`re talking about. He`s in deep trouble.
(CROSS TALKING)
SALTZ: He`s in deep trouble. But I would be very concerned about bringing a 12-year-old in and making them testify. That`s not really exactly great for the mental health of the 12-year-old who`s really in a position -- I don`t even know how important it is. Because he is her son and not Mel Gibson`s son --
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: So what he says, you know, it doesn`t -- and it may support his mother, which he will feel compelled to do. And I don`t think that`s so great for the child. Clearly there`s enough other evidence where I would hope that they would take that into consideration before they would drag a child into that.
BEHAR: I know but if the child needs to be a witness and he`ll have to do it, that`s all.
Now, Nicole, Oksana is reportedly receiving death threats for dragging Mel through the mud. Who would be on his side in this besides his accountant?
LAPORTE: Well, I -- I mean, I think you can`t discount crazy fans or just crazy about him fans. I mean, there was -- there was a poll down yesterday that said having listened to these tapes and become aware of Mel in this rage, would you still go see a Mel Gibson movie? And 50 percent of the people who answer the poll said they would.
So I think there are still a lot of people who refuse to see this side of Mel and still think of him as the hunky heartthrob from "Lethal Weapon".
BEHAR: Well, you know what? I haven`t --
TONY POTTS, CORRESPONDENT, "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD": But listen Joy, hold on --
BEHAR: I don`t -- I don`t disagree with that in a certain way because you have to separate the artist from the art. Ezra Pound was an incredible anti-Semite, yet you still read his poetry. So I mean that is a separate issue to me.
POTTS: Joy one other thing that we should to think about too --
BEHAR: Yes.
POTTS: -- she kind of came in under the radar and against public sentiments, ok. Because she -- she`s was perceived as breaking up a marriage. So she`s kind of behind eight ball to begin with as well.
BEHAR: Well, still that doesn`t justify any behavior on his part.
POTTS: No of course not.
BEHAR: You know that, Tony.
POTTS: I know. Why are you all over me?
BEHAR: She knocked off his -- she knocks -- he knocks out her caps.
POTTS: I know.
BEHAR: Ok, thanks, everybody.
Up next, we`ll try to figure out why Oksana and many other women stay with abusive men.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The audio tapes that have surfaced of Mel Gibson allegedly ranting and threatening his ex-girlfriend really shine a light on domestic abuse. It`s the kind of violence many women live with every day.
Here to discuss further are Mary Murphy, a domestic violence survivor and guest judge on "So You Think You Can Dance"; victim`s rights attorney, Gloria Allred; and Beth Chapman, co-star on "Dog The Bounty Hunter" and also a domestic abuse survivor though that was way before she met "Dog". Let`s get that clear. Welcome very much to the show, ladies.
MARY MURPHY, GUEST JUDGE, "SO YOU THINK YOU CAN DANCE": Thank you.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok, I want to start off listening to another part of the audio tape from RadarOnline where Gibson is allegedly yelling at his ex Oksana. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You almost killed us did you forget?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) it`s a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gravy train for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are hitting a woman with a child in her hands. You, what kind of man is that, hitting a woman when she`s holding a child in her hands? Breaking her teeth twice in the face. What kind of man is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re all angry now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to get this. You know what --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you deserved it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to answer one day, boy. You`re going to answer. Bet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? What, are you threatening me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing. Nothing, I`m not the one to threaten.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m threatening, I`ll put you in a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rose garden you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: Beth, does he sound like a classic abuser there -- to you?
BETH CHAPMAN, CO-STAR ON "DOG THE BOUNTY HUNTER": I hate to say he does. Yes.
BEHAR: He does?
CHAPMAN: He`s certainly does. Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, I have to remind people that when he started yelling those anti-Semitic rants at police in Malibu, she was a woman, a policewoman. So I mean, he -- what struck you, Gloria, when you listened to that?
ALLRED: Well, definitely, there`s verbal abuse, Joy; very extreme verbal abuse against his intimate partner, the mother of his little baby, Oksana.
But in addition, of course, in another tape, he appears to admit to physical abuse as well. Because, again, when he says that -- when she says, what kind of man would hit a woman holding a child and then he goes on to say you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deserved it.
That is an admission and I believe that would be admissible in a court of law. And that`s certainly an admission against his interests.
BEHAR: Ok, so he`s going to go up -- according to Gloria he`s going to go to jail, if that can -- if that was him. If that was he on the tape, right, Gloria? We don`t know 100 percent.
ALLRED: Well, exactly.
BEHAR: We`ve been talking -- right.
ALLRED: It appears that way.
BEHAR: We`ve been trying to get people from Mel`s camp to come on and talk all over this network, but nobody is responding.
So now, Mel and Oksana were together for three years.
Mary, I`d like to ask you, this type of abuse doesn`t happen overnight. What are the first signs of abuse? You`ve been through this.
MURPHY: Well, -- yes absolutely. It usually starts with verbal abuse. But it could be both at one time. For me, I thought I had the perfect marriage, I thought I was a strong young woman. And listen, it came out of the blue one day and just hit me literally over the head and was beaten and raped. And I -- I saw it slightly coming, but I certainly didn`t see that.
But usually it`ll start with verbal abuse. Sometimes like I said, you could be hit out of the blue with both. And then after that, you are so devastated because it is someone that you love, and that is such a betrayal. Because you know, you almost wish it happened from a complete stranger and instead of someone that you love, because it takes so long to get over that. And your self-esteem just plummets.
I can tell you because I looked at myself. And people think, how could I possibly have let that happen to me? But let me tell you it`s psychological warfare when it`s someone that you love.
BEHAR: Right and Beth, it happened to you too. How long into the relationship --
CHAPMAN: Absolutely.
BEHAR: -- do you think before the woman realizes, my God, what I -- who -- I`m sleeping with the enemy? How long?
CHAPMAN: Well, I don`t think it`s very long. And I think that most women see those characteristics in the men before they marry them or before they start hanging out with them.
Most men who have those characteristics have some kind of underlining substance abuse problems whether it`s be alcohol or cocaine or methamphetamine or whatever their -- whatever their trip is. They usually always have some underlining something that turns them from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde.
And the reason that -- well, most women stay is exactly what she said. They love them so much. And there`s just that little sliver of love that they have for that person. And they keep hoping that that person is going to come back to them. And quite frankly, they`re just not.
MURPHY: And they say they`re going to change, as well.
BEHAR: Right.
MURPHY: That`s the whole thing, they constantly, I`m so sorry, I love you, the gifts, that showering, the vacations.
ALLRED: Right.
MURPHY: But that also just became like a mantra in my marriage. It`ll never happen again. It`ll never happen again.
BEHAR: And it does.
CHAPMAN: And it always does.
MURPHY: It always does.
CHAPMAN: It`s like a happy time.
ALLRED: And Joy --
CHAPMAN: -- you share that happy time of wherever he`s taking you. They take you on vacation and they give you gifts and they give you all these things because they`re sorry. But quite honestly, all those things are, are memories of those incidents.
BEHAR: You know Gloria --
MURPHY: Exactly.
CHAPMAN: So they don`t take anything away.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
Gloria, let me ask you something.
Oksana on some of the blogs is basically -- people are -- people are turning on her. They`re accusing her of being provocative and that she`s a gold digger.
So what? Even if she is a gold digger, that does not justify a man hitting a woman no matter what she says or does, right?
ALLRED: Absolutely.
Ok, first of all, there`s no --
CHAPMAN: Well, I don`t think the people --
BEHAR: Gloria, first.
ALLRED: Having said that, yes -- having said that -- at one point in one of the recordings, Joy, Mr. Gibson does actually suggests that the way she is dressing is going to get her raped by, he says, by a pack of -- and then he uses the "N" word.
That, of course, is a racist stereotype as well as a sexual stereotype because women are not sexually assaulted because of how they are dressed.
BEHAR: Right. Ok, hold that thought, we`re going to continue this discussion in just a minute. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. We`re talking about domestic violence.
You know, we were talking about signs of abuse and why women stay somewhat because --you were sort of expressing it, Beth, I think, or Mary - - both of you. It`s a shock; it`s like a thunder bolt. And you say oh my God, the man that I love is abusive.
But let`s talk about how to get out of it now. You stayed nine years, Mary, with your abusive marriage. Were you scared to leave?
MARY MURPHY, GUEST JUDGE, "SO YOU THINK YOU CAN DANCE": Yes. Absolutely I was scared to leave. He was from a very wealthy and powerful family in the Middle East and I was terrified of leaving, to be honest with you. At one point, I just knew I had to make a change in my life.
Luckily I found something that gave me the power and that was over the years, every time that he would leave the country, I found dance. That actually just saved my life. It made me grow. It gave me my self esteem back. It made me feel pretty again because I lost all dignity.
I was scared to death too, that if I leave, you`re going to be homeless. What are you going to be able to do? You can`t do anything. Years --
BEHAR: Were you afraid that he would come and kill you if you left?
MURPHY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: How about you, Beth?
BETH CHAPMAN, CO-STAR, "DOG THE BOUNTY HUNTER": Most abusive men, they just prey on your fear. That`s the only thing that gives them power over you is the fear that they instill on you they will pound you out, beat you, kick you, leave you homeless, have you with no money.
Women need to be empowered to be able to stand up, call the police. If he comes around again, call again. If he threatens you, call again. You just have to empower yourself to stop it immediately because it is a cycle. It`s a vicious cycle.
ALLRED: Joy.
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead. Gloria, are you speaking?
ALLRED: Joy, I agree with what they have both said about abuse. But I also want to add, not every man who is abusive is abusive because of drugs or alcohol.
BEHAR: Right.
ALLRED: I think the men to be most careful about, frankly, are the male chauvinists. Male chauvinists who are in this rigid gender role of what a man is supposed to be and they also have this rigid idea of what a woman is supposed to be. Originally they`re -- initially they`re like Prince Charming and they`re engaging and they`re charismatic. And they draw the woman in and they`re very protective of her and give her gifts. That is the way they are.
But the flip side is that these are very dangerous people. They generally have anger management problems. In other words, male chauvinisms is a mental health issue for men --
BEHAR: Yes.
ALLRED: And it is dangerous to a woman`s health.
BEHAR: That`s very interesting. And another -- what would you say to somebody -- a guy who says, look I`m going to get anger management. I`m going to go into therapy or we have or whatever? Would you ladies who have been in this situation -- would you be --
ALLRED: Have a nice life.
BEHAR: Would you trust somebody to ever be cured, so to speak, of this?
MURPHY: That`s a really good question because I think it is really tough for someone that is capable of such hatred and anger to be able to change. I think it`s possible. I think anything`s possible. But would I trust again after what I know and have been through? I don`t know. It would be really tough.
BEHAR: How about you, Beth? Would you trust somebody after they went through some kind of therapy?
CHAPMAN: Well, I don`t think so. I think that old habits die hard. I think that once you`ve been brought up in that cycle and you`ve lived through that cycle, I think that at some point, little bits of that thing just keep coming on back. I just -- if you`re in that kind of abusive relationship, get out. Yell next from your porch.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you so much ladies for sharing your stories. And thank you Gloria also.
For anyone seeking help, the number for the national domestic violence hotline is 1-800-799-SAFE. Or you can go online to www.ndvh.org.
Switching gears -- I love this next story -- Levi Johnston and Bristol Palin are engaged. I`m so excited.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Bristol Palin and Levi Johnston, the Romeo and Juliet of Wasilla told "US Weekly" that they`re engaged to be married. Not only that, they plan to live right near the Palins. In fact, they just rented a house in Moscow.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Actually, they didn`t even tell Sarah they were getting married. Unbelievable. Joining me to discuss this is Caroline Schaefer, executive editor of "US Weekly." Now Caroline, they used to hate each other what happened to change that all around?
CAROLINE SCHAEFER, US WEEKLY: Well about three months ago, Levi came over to Bristol`s new condo and anchorage to talk about the custody arrangement of their son, Tripp. And they went for a walk and they started flirting. And then afterwards, Levi texted Bristol and said, you know, I love you, I miss you, and I actually want to get back together with you. And she felt the same.
BEHAR: OK, all right, fine.
SCHAEFER: That`s what she told us.
BEHAR: All right, they told "US Weekly" before they told Sarah Palin.
SCHAEFER: Yes.
BEHAR: Why didn`t they tell her? And if they - were they afraid that she would quit in the middle of the conversation?
(LAUGHTER)
SCHAEFER: I think Bristol - Bristol came to "US Weekly" to tell her story because she really wanted to have a platform. She said she wanted to say everything she wanted to say from start to finish, you know, how they fell in love, why they got back together. How they really want to be a family for their son. And I think she didn`t necessarily felt like she was going to get that platform if she just went and told her parents.
BEHAR: I see now the Palin family released a statement.
SCHAEFER: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m going to read it. "Bristol at 19 is now a young adult. We obviously want what is best for our children. Bristol believes in redemption and forgiveness to a degree most of us struggle to put into practice in our daily lives." Did Sarah write that? Because it has periods and punctuation and everything. But it`s not exactly an endorsement, is it?
SCHAEFER: It`s definitely not an endorsement and I think Bristol told us that she doesn`t expect a resounding endorsement initially. You know, I think she knows that Levi and Sarah has a lot of work to do. Especially Levi, he has a lot of apologizing to do. And he started to do that, six weeks ago, he went over to the Palin house, he sat there for an hour, apologized, to both Sarah and Todd and basically said, I want to be with Bristol and here`s how I`m going to be a better person for her.
BEHAR: And did they accept the apology?
SCHAEFER: He said that you know, they didn`t really respond. They were basically like, you know, show us, don`t tell it us. And Bristol, you know, wants him to do a lot more work to apologize.
BEHAR: OK, now Sarah Palin and Levi Johnston have been fighting for a while. Because Palin took on Levi during an interview with Oprah. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN: I don`t think a national television show is the place to discuss some of the things that he`s doing and saying. And by the way, I don`t know if we call him Levi. I hear he goes by the name Ricky Hollywood now. So if that`s the case, we don`t want to mess up this gig he`s got going. Kind of this aspiring - aspiring porn, some of the things he`s doing. It`s kind of heartbreaking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now that they`re together, is she still going to call him Ricky Hollywood?
SCHAEFER: Well let`s hope not. I mean he did apologize. But Bristol basically confronted Levi a little bit during our interview and said, you know, what was behind all the lies you said? And you know, Levi got very emotional and he has acknowledged he feels sorry for some of the things that he said. But it`s going to take a long time. I mean it was a very deep-seated feud.
BEHAR: Uh huh, now they also say that they`re going to be abstinent until married. I mean the tooth paste is out of the tube.
SCHAEFER: Yes, true. I mean she acknowledges -
BEHAR: Do you believe that, Caroline, come on?
SCHAEFER: Well you know, she acknowledges obviously that she`s a teen mom, so she has not always practiced abstinence. But she said that right now she wants to practice abstinence until they`re married. That they`re not living together yet. And that is what she tells us. And she also tells us she`s not pregnant, which I think some people are wondering as well.
BEHAR: Uh huh, that was an interesting tidbit. He said he`s a changed man. So I guess he`ll only pose naked for the "Wall Street Journal" now.
SCHAEFER: You know, he says that that part of life is behind him and he`s not interested in having his 15 minutes of fame.
BEHAR: I don`t think it was his behind we were talking about the last time he was on. Now, speaking of his behind, he is behind on child support. Is he all caught up now?
SCHAEFER: Well that is unclear you know. Back in February, he was ordered to pay $18,000 in back, you know, child support. But they didn`t talk about that. And right now, he`s employed but she is. So --
BEHARR: OK what about the wedding? When`s the wedding? I can`t wait to hear Levi mumble I do. Go ahead.
SCHAEFER: Well they don`t have a date set yet but they want to get married, soon, you know in the next month or two. They want to get married in, you know, Alaska, outdoors. They want it to be a small family wedding. She wants to wear Carolina Herrera, like the dress she wore in Harper`s Bazaar.
BEHAR: Yes.
SCHAEFER: And he wants to wear a camel vest he saw.
BEHAR: Now you know these people, so one last question. Do you think I`ll be invited? OK, thanks Caroline.
SCHAEFER: Thanks.
BEHAR: Now I want to bring in Brian Unger, NPR commentator and former "Daily Show" correspondent and Steve Kornacki news editor and columnist for salon.com. Hi guys.
STEVE KORNACKI, SALON.COM: Hey, good to see you.
BEHAR: Now Steve, let me start with you. Do you think Levi`s apology is sincere? Let`s start there.
KORNACKI: I mean I think it`s sincere in a sense that, you know, for whatever reason, he wants, you know, he wants back into the family. And that`s the necessary step for him. But I think if you look at what he`s apologizing for, if you remember --
BEHAR: Well he called the little boy retarded.
KORNACKI: Well there were a couple of things that he said and I don`t think are entirely implausible. And you know I --
BEHAR: That was a nasty slur against the kid.
KORNACKI: Well it was. But he also said when she came back from the campaign trail in 2088 that she was already quitting as governor to go and make money.
BEHAR: Yes, duh.
KORNACKI: He talked about when Bristol first told Sarah that she was pregnant -
BEHAR: Yes.
KORNACKI: And Sarah`s response is let`s hide it and then I can adopt it. So I don`t think any of that is particularly implausible. Now he is saying, you know, he made it up and everything. You know he has to say that to get back into the family. Whether he made it up or whether it`s the truth, he`s going to say the same thing right now. So I don`t find it you know particularly credible.
BEHAR: OK just to correct myself, I believe what happened was he said that Sarah called the child, my little retarded baby.
KORNACKI: Right.
BEHAR: So he apologized maybe for that. He didn`t say that the kid was retarded. OK.
KORNACKI: Right and he was saying that she referred to it as -
BEHAR: Now could this be a publicity stunt, Brian?
BRIAN UNGER, NPR COMMENTATOR: Joy, here is what`s going on - and Steve, you might want to listen to this too -
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK.
UNGER: Here`s the thing. This Levi fellow is like a rogue CIA agent. He is like Jason Bourne but not as smart. He`s out there and they need to get him back into the fold. They need to recall him. And they`re not enticing him with unconditional love and you know Sarah`s homemade biscuits.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
UNGER: They`re doing this with cash, probably as much cash as "US" paid for the story. But they are getting him back to the fold --
BEHAR: So you think is -- who`s paying the money out, the GOP?
UNGER: Listen this sounds a little conspiratorial.
BEHAR: Yes.
UNGER: But I think it might just be from a private Palin slush fund to get him back into the fold so that she can sort of reclaim the family values sort of mantle.
BEHAR: Yes of course.
UNGER: You know what I mean? And set the stage for her run.
BEHAR: I agree with that. Do you agree with that, Steve? I think that`s right.
UNGER: Thank you.
KORNACKI: I think from the Palin standpoint it`s an unfortunate byproduct. This guy is out there saying for the last year he has dirt on Sarah Palin. And you know, maybe he`ll spill it maybe he won`t.
BEHAR: Right.
KORNACKI: If you`re about to run for president, you don`t want that going on - so this house. But I think there`s a much more credible explanation, they`re 19 years old. And you know it has been --
UNGER: You know, he might be right about that.
BEHAR: So what about it -
KORNACKI: Well OK, they were together.
BEHAR: They`re dying to sleep with each other again?
KORNACKI: There was a traumatic event, they had some tension, they separated.
UNGER: Steve.
KORNACKI: They`re back together -- there`s no date for the wedding. I`m betting they are going to be split up again before the wedding takes place. It`s that roller coaster 18 and 19-year-old kids are always going to be on.
UNGER: That`s called hormones. Those rollercoaster - and I think --
BEHAR: So wait a minute, the two of you disagree. And I disagree with you also, Steve. Because I think she wants to run and she has to make nice right now. How is it going to look if she`s running and her daughter`s a single parent? No.
KORNACKI: That`s already been - that`s been the fact for the last year -
BEHAR: I know, but they`ll fix it. Redemption, redemption.
(CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: Who care how anything moves then they make up their own reality.
UNGER: Steve, Steve. This is all a bunch of bunk. You know this. That "US" has sort of bought this hook, line, and sinker, right?
KORNACKI: Uh huh, right.
UNGER: We know that they have paid or that they paid the Palins for this story, you know that right? It`ll get out. Don`t worry.
KORNACKI: OK.
UNGER: My sources confirmed this.
BEHAR: She is making a lot of money right now on the other side. And why would she run for president? She won`t make any money?
UNGER: But you know this whole platform that the tea party`s got --
BEHAR: Oh let`s go there.
KORNACKI: It`s too exclusionary. She needs the family values thing to kind of pull it all together. That`s just my theory. I could be wrong. Or they had amazing makeup sex, you know what I mean.
BEHAR: Yes.
KORNACKI: When they saw each other. They said they went for a walk in the woods. No, they didn`t. They went for a walk through each other`s drawers.
BEHAR: I can hear the music. Listen, Levi Johnston isn`t the only thing Sarah Palin has a beef with. Now she`s talking on the NAACP for passing a resolution condemning what they see is racism in the tea party. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: So to be called a racist, yes, those over there on the Left opposing that good message of tea party Americans are using this racism accusation in order to keep people away from not only the movement but keeping them -- keeping a wall built between what the message actually is and the American public.
BEHAR: Steve, do you understand what she`s saying?
KORNACKI: She seems to be saying they`re trying to keep, you know, African-Americans away from the tea party. And the last I heard, the tea party had a big rally on Capitol Hill when they were debating health care in the final day. And the tea party people started shouting racial epithets at the black members of Congress, as they walked up the steps to vote.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s right.
KORNACKI: Including a man who had been beaten John Lewis to within an inch of his life you know 45 years ago in the civil rights movement. But in the Sarah Palin`s world it is the NAACPs fault.
BEHAR: But the tea party are saying they can`t control t crazies, and the racist crazies within the group. Is that a legitimate grip? Legitimate excuse?
UNGER: Well first, the party is sort -- the tea party is the party of slow. They`re not understanding that this exclusionary definition, this take America back thing is by definition jingo-istic and exclusionary.
BEHAR: Yes.
UNGER: You`re rolling out the welcome mat for people who spit on people who are, you know, other ethnicities.
BEHAR: Yes.
UNGER: They`re slamming everyone here.
BEHAR: Do you think the tea party could be a force in the next election?
KORNACKI: Well it`s already a force. It`s been a force for a long time -
BEHAR: In the presidential -
KORNACKI: It`s called the Republican party base. So to the extent the Republican party base is a fort in politics, the tea party base is. You know, I`ve been saying for a while, we just didn`t have a title for, a catchy label for this years ago.
BEHAR: Yes.
KORNACKI: But when the Republicans, the Conservatives, when Bill Clinton was president, we were accusing him of murder and drug running and all those other crazy things --
BEHAR: Right and now they are accusing Obama of being a Nazi. As if they can`t get things straight.
KORNACKI: Same thing.
BEHAR: A socialist can`t be a Nazi. They`re two different things.
UNGER: They`re competing philosophies.
BEHAR: It`s competing philosophies -
UNGER: They can`t do that.
BEHAR: It`s like -- read.
UNGER: Just be one thing.
BEHAR: Just be one thing but OK, thanks, guys, very much. Up next, actor James Brolin joins me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: When he co-started on "Marcus Wellby M.D." I wanted this guy to be my doctor but he wouldn`t make house calls to Brooklyn. Well look who came crawling back.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: James Brolin is here to tell me about his new movie, "Standing Ovation" which opens on Friday. Welcome James to the show.
JAMES BROLIN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "STANDING OVATION": Thank you Joy, it`s so good to see you.
BEHAR: Yes it`s so good to see you again. We saw each other this morning.
BROLIN: Yes we passed this morning but -
BEHAR: Which by the way I have to remind you that Laura Ingraham, who was on the show, sitting on the panel.
BROLIN: Yes.
BEHAR: She wrote a book called "Shut Up And Sing" where she attacked your wife. Do you realize that?
BROLIN: I think my wife said something once. She said, that`s the girl that --
BEHAR: Yes Barbra Streisand and the Dixie Chicks were the target.
BROLIN: And I wish I could remember, you know, what the problem was that was kind of untrue where she was not well informed.
BEHAR: Right.
BROLIN: But I see it about my wife all the time. Somehow you know, they just -- it`s usually women like to get her.
BEHAR: Really?
BROLIN: Oh, yes. Guys are a little more lenient on her.
BEHAR: A lot of buzzing is going on, the viewers are buzzing on the internet about you coming on here.
BROLIN: Really?
BEHAR: Before we talk about your movie, which is a delightful, darling children`s thing.
BROLIN: Oh thank you.
BEHAR: I loved it.
BROLIN: It`s so fun to sell something you believe in for a change.
BEHAR: Exactly but before we get to that, I just want to give you a couple of fan questions. One person said, how come some people get better looking with age? I think they mean you.
BROLIN: What am I, a scientist?
BEHAR: I guess not.
BROLIN: I don`t know. It`s the old thing. They say it about every man, don`t they?
BEHAR: No. No.
BROLIN: Oh they don`t?
BEHAR: John McCain didn`t get better looking.
BROLIN: No. He didn`t. But they say, why do men get better looking with age. That`s what you just said. You could have been a courtroom attorney.
BEHAR: I could. Also, do you get hit on everywhere you go? These are women writing obviously.
BROLIN: Hit on?
BEHAR: Do you get hit on every where you go?
BROLIN: I don`t know what it is about me. Maybe I`m too much like Gore, you know.
BEHAR: Why, you like massages?
(LAUGHTER)
BROLIN: No. Not any recent -- no. Maybe I`m too stilted or you know, stoic or something.
BEHAR: No.
BROLIN: Because I give off a presence where I don`t get hit on.
BEHAR: You don`t?
BROLIN: No, no. I get approached, we talk. It`s all very nice. I go, this is nice. But nobody ever really - you know, like guys I know, man, I met this girl in a bar and two minutes later I was out in a car. I`m like, that doesn`t happen to me.
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
BROLIN: Yes.
BEHAR: One more question. What does a day in your life consistent of? Oh my goodness, that`s a long way.
BROLIN: Sleeping in as long as I can get away with. I know a lot about a lot of technical things. I`m a hard worker. There were days I was young when I dug ditches. I was the fastest guy digging the ditch so I could get in bed as soon as possible. Because basically I`m lazy. And Barbara said the same thing. She says I work really hard so I can go hide somewhere in the hammock, you know.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s good, the mean time - really put it out and then relax.
BROLIN: If you asked me, you know, what my day is like. And you know I have a lumber company I started with a friend 25 years ago. I have that. I fly a lot. I`ve flown for 40 years.
BEHAR: In a plane?
BROLIN: Yes, in a small plane. What did you mean by that?
BEHAR: I don`t know. You never know what goes on the coast.
BROLIN: That`s true. That`s good. So anyway, I find that flying - you know because the associated tension with it, and you have to keep up, it keeps my mind alert, whereas normally I would probably be -- we`d have a pretty slow conversation here.
BEHAR: You`re a busy guy. And now this movie, it`s so cute. Tell me about the movie. Somebody said it`s like the musical "Chicago" with kids and --
BROLIN: I think I said that.
BEHAR: Oh did you say that?
BROLIN: And everybody`s kind of grabbed on to that. But originally when we saw -- you know, Stuart Rafflin and I have done a couple of project together. And his wife has involved as production head. And when she said, you know, have you guys seen "High School Musical?" Well I guess I hadn`t. And she said, it`s done $350 million but no high school kids went to it. It`s for the tweens. This is a kids` movie.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
BROLIN: She said but there are not that many tunes in. Let`s make a movie for tweens like "Chicago" with 16 dancing and singing numbers and a story that`s threaded through it like "Chicago" so it`s not just music. You know after 20 minutes in this movie, you care about these people.
BEHAR: Right.
BROLIN: And anyway, so we made this movie on a shoe string and then we had a wonderful investor come in at the last minute, help us with our promotion, which is very lean compared to a studio. We`re doing all this ourselves.
BEHAR: Wonderful to do it.
BROLIN: I hope that the studio is going to look over their shoulder and say, where did they come from?
BEHAR: I think it`s better when you do things yourself. You are not beholding things.
BROLIN: Yes.
BEHAR: OK, so let me ask you a couple of things. I mean you were watching the Bristol and Levi conversation.
BROLIN: Uh huh, oh I`m so excited.
BEHAR: Isn`t it exciting?
BROLIN: He`s back on the payroll. You know, that`s great. I think they need to him to win.
BEHAR: And the news -
BROLIN: You know what?
BEHAR: What?
BROLIN: You see the pictures that they were showing? It would be really nice if she ran her fingers through his hair or vice versa or put her arms around his shoulder.
BEHAR: Well I think he had his hands around her thigh.
BROLIN: I don`t think so. I don`t think so - get in there, where they get - you know --
BEHAR: Well they`re going to be abstinent until they get married. Do you buy it?
BROLIN: I`d like to see the video of that.
BEHAR: So would I.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: We are going to do another segment. And so sit right there. And we`ll talk some more with James Brolin after this break.
BROLIN: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought you were expecting it.
BROLIN: So you are Tanya Rover.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My friends call me Tanya.
BROLIN: Well you can call me James Bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK that was my guest James Brolin auditioning for James Bond back in the `80s. That was fun, you would have made a great James Bond.
BROLIN: You know what happened?
BEHAR: What?
BROLIN: -- You know Roger Moore was quitting and Kobi Broccoli (ph) and I had meetings. And basically say, all right, I want to bring you over to London and we are going to do a test. They did the most extravagant screen test. I mean you know, that didn`t look extravagant but huge sound stage. All the best cinematographer.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
BROLIN: You know, they spent a lot of money. Now they just sit you across the room with a video camera. You know -
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
BROLIN: But anyway, Roger Moore was quitting and they were looking for a guy. And he had, he said, you know, an American with an American accent. Well I said, you know I can do somewhere near Hawaii or you know, somewhere near Ireland accent. You know, somewhere in the middle. I think I can get away with it. And he said, great. We`ll start. I got my apartment, my flat. I started working out with the stunt men and went back to L.A. to get my stuff. And I got a call. Roger Moore just accepted one Moore, "Octopussy."
BEHAR: Oh.
BROLIN: So that was that. That was my Bond days. BEHAR: So c`est la vie.
BROLIN: -- few minutes up there you know.
BEHAR: C`est la vie. You know all week on this show, we`ve been talking Mel Gibson.
BROLIN: Yes.
BEHAR: And you know the Hollywood people, nobody wants to say anything about him. They`re circling the wagons on this. I can`t get anybody to come on here and talk about it. But do you have anything, any thoughts?
BROLIN: I think he needs a good hug.
BEHAR: He needs a hug?
BROLIN: I do.
BEHAR: Yes.
BROLIN: I think whatever abuse and whatever form it took when he was young, I think he needs some curing. I think he needs -- just like any objectionable drug person who goes through rehab and we end up loving them. We`ve got the same thing here. And I don`t care how much he apologizes or tries to -- I think he just needs some time to repair a lot of feelings.
BEHAR: Have you heard the tapes?
BROLIN: I know people that are -- people that have had a lot of different kinds of problems. We rehabilitate them. You know what I was wondering? I was wonder if "Brave Heart" best picture, best director, was coming out this Friday --
BEHAR: What you mean this could have been a publicity stunt?
BROLIN: No, no, no. I`m just saying, everybody`s going, I`ll never work with him. Don`t want him. We`ll never go to see his picture. And his picture was coming out this Friday. And everybody says this is the greatest picture I`ve ever seen. Would they go see it? Maybe five percent of the public go?
BEHAR: I think 50 percent of the public polled said they would see his movies. But that`s really -- I find that to be a nonissue.
BROLIN: Beaver Hoover last week on "SHOW BIZ" said that there is no correlation between how much you like a star and the success of his movies.
BEHAR: Yes, absolutely.
BROLIN: I don`t mean him, I mean any star.
BEHAR: Yes.
BROLIN: I would have a tendency -- I love to see a good movie. I don`t care what the good news is on it.
BEHAR: Do you think he`s finished in Hollywood though?
BROLIN: Him?
BEHAR: Yes. The agent -- William Morris dropped him.
BROLIN: I hear he`s got more cash, I mean real cash available, than GE does. Who cares?
BEHAR: We care on this show, a lot.
BROLIN: When you`ve got that much money, what the heck? Make your own movies at home.
BEHAR: He could do that. He could do that, whatever. Listen thanks, Jimmy for coming out. I know I`m calling you Jimmy now right?
BROLIN: I love it, only my best friends call me Jimmy.
BEHAR: Well you said that - OK well I feel very close to you now.
BROLIN: I do to you too.
BEHAR: So thanks for doing this very much and good luck with "Standing Ovation" which opens nationwide on Friday. Good night everybody. And say hi to Barbara.
BROLIN: Thank you, I will.
BEHAR: Tell her to come on the show.
BROLIN: I will.
END
