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Joy Behar Page
Mel Gibson`s Meltdown
Aired July 15, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, the Christian right is not coming to Mel Gibson`s defense. I guess he`s hoping that the Jews will fill the void. Do you think?
Then Lindsay Lohan has hired a new lawyer, Robert Shapiro, who headed up O.J. Simpson`s defense team. Remember him? Here`s an irony, Lindsay will probably do more time than O.J. did for two suspected murders.
How does a middle class girl from New Jersey end up in the harem of the prince of Brunei? In her defense the signs on the Jersey turnpike can be incredibly confusing.
That and more right now.
Well, it`s another day and another delightful diatribe on tape. RadarOnline posted its fifth recording of the man they say is Mel Gibson lashing out at his ex-girlfriend Oksana Grigorieva.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will never forgive you. I will never forgive you for what you`ve done to me you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You ruined my life, and you didn`t give me a penny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- first. I ruined your life. How did I ruin your life? I gave you (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You gave me nothing but (EXPLETIVE DELETED) grief. All right? And bad publicity (EXPLETIVE DELETED). How did I ruin your life?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You destroyed my reputation and you`re the meanest person I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not destroy it because that`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re the meanest person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re very mean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You know what mean is now, don`t you? So don`t call me mean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re very jealous and you`re very mean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like to show you what mean really is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gold digger. All true. You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) proved it to me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: We continue to reach out to Mel to get his side of the story, but so far nothing. With me now is David Perel executive vice president and creator of RadarOnline.com.
Now, tell me something, how did you get the tapes and did you pay for them?
DAVID PEREL, CREATOR, RADARONLINE.COM: We haven`t paid a penny for them. And in terms of how we got them, it was just good investigative reporting. We`ve been on the story since the start.
We were the first ones to break that Mel had filed a document under seal restraining Oksana. And then once we dug a little deeper, we realized that Oksana first had a restraining order against Mel. That`s how the whole thing began.
BEHAR: And so did she come to you with the tapes or you went to her or what?
PEREL: Usually we don`t say who our sources are or who they are not because we don`t want to do a process of elimination. But in this case we have posted that it is not Oksana. She didn`t give us the tapes just to end the speculation right there.
BEHAR: Oh. Was it the baby? Who gave them to you, David? Come on.
PEREL: Can`t tell you, Joy. I`m sorry.
BEHAR: All right. How many tapes do you have?
PEREL: There`s about 30 minutes of tape in all.
BEHAR: And how much have we gotten so far? 15 minutes?
PEREL: I hate to say I`m losing count, but I think it`s about 20 minutes so far. There`s still a lot of material left. It`s very interesting and it`s very explosive, as you might imagine and extremely newsy and we will be posting more on RadarOnline.
BEHAR: Why are you doing this piecemeal? To keep Radar in the news? I can understand it. I`m just asking.
PEREL: Frankly, it`s just too much material to put up on the site at one time. And by spreading it out, you do get to, you know, it`s what you do on the Internet. You spread it out. And what you get is to listen to every piece, hear it, talk about it, see what`s going on, then the next piece becomes the next theme.
BEHAR: Yes.
PEREL: And they are -- it works out better that way.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s like "Gone with the Wind", it just goes on and on.
PEREL: It`s a saga.
BEHAR: It`s a saga. It`s big, big, long mini-series.
They`re all awful. But are the new ones coming up less controversial than the previous ones?
PEREL: No, I think what`s coming up might be the most controversial.
BEHAR: Oh. Come on, give me a hint. Come on, David.
PEREL: Let`s just say it goes right to the core of the domestic violence issue.
As you know, they`ve been in court over that. Special Victims Unit is involved, Department of Children and Family Services are involved, RadarOnline reported on Thursday that DCFS is now going to talk to Mel, and they are investigating.
So this has turned into a very big deal in the judicial system.
BEHAR: Now, Mel`s lawyers say that they have evidence that the tapes have been edited. Have they been edited in any way that you know of? She sounds like she`s reading a script, some people say.
PEREL: No, no. I can tell you that RadarOnline hasn`t edited the tapes or altered them in any way.
BEHAR: Do you think she did?
PEREL: I don`t think so. I`ve seen experts who have said, look, we`ve looked at these tapes and, no they weren`t edited.
The thing is it`s Mel`s voice, it`s Mel having those conversations. It`s Mel saying those things.
BEHAR: How do you know that? How do you know it`s definitely him?
PEREL: We know from our source and we know how we got it, where we got it. We know the whole situation. I haven`t heard Mel say -- I also heard Mel`s lawyer say in the beginning that she was trying to extort him. So now it turns into she`s trying to extort him with altered tapes. It really does not make sense.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. Have you heard from Mel Gibson? You haven`t heard from his side at all, right? No one has.
PEREL: No, he`s been extremely quiet, extremely quiet.
BEHAR: Ok, now Oksana told Radar -- you guys -- that she has photographic proof that Mel hit and bruised the baby. Is that what`s coming up next? Or is there -- what?
PEREL: Well, there`s more that`s coming up. But RadarOnline did post today that there is photographic proof that Mel hit the baby, according to Oksana who told it to sources. We found out about it, and that those photographs show a bruise on the baby`s chin.
Oksana was holding the baby when she got into a bad fight with Mel on January 6th. This is the fight where her teeth were allegedly punched out by Mel.
BEHAR: Ok. So we can expect some bombshell, David, in the coming days.
PEREL: Yes, you can. The story just gets deeper and deeper.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much, David.
PEREL: Thank you.
BEHAR: And when Gibson makes slurs about gays and Jews, his conservative Christian fans stood by him. But are they standing by him now or has he finally said things they find unforgivable?
Here to talk with me about this is Pastor Ted Haggard, founder of St. James`s Church who was involved in his own public scandal, so he might be sympathetic; Stephen Baldwin, actor, author and radio host; and Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent for "The Daily Beast".
Rebecca, let`s start with you. Have Mel`s Christian fans abandoned him?
REBECCA DANA, "THE DAILY BEAST": So far we`ve heard radio silence from James Dobson, from Pat Robertson, from the many organizations and leaders on the Christian right who came out in droves to support first the "Passion of the Christ", and then to defend Mel in the wake of his horrible 2006 anti-Semitic tirade.
BEHAR: So they were on his side with the anti-Semitic rant --
DANA: Yes, they said, first of all, he was drunk. So it`s forgivable. And second of all, he`s apologized. Let`s accept his apology.
Now, so far in this story he hasn`t said anything. So maybe he was drunk and maybe he`s sorry and maybe they`ll come rushing to his defense again, but for now, I`ve called up all these people --
BEHAR: And nobody answers.
DANA: Nobody answers.
BEHAR: So this -- could this be the final straw for him, that James Dobson cannot defend any of this anymore?
DANA: Yes. I mean, maybe there`s something -- arguably there`s something more indefensible about spousal abuse and racism and other kinds of xenophobia than anti-Semitism, but at least for right now, Mel is far too much of a hot potato for them to feel any sort of allegiance to him because of all the great work he did with "Passion of the Christ".
BEHAR: But your implication and what you`re saying that the information is almost like it`s ok -- and I`m going to ask these guys this question. Is it ok to bash Jews and gays? That`s ok in the Christian community? I don`t think so.
DANA: That certainly seems like the message that we`re getting right now. You have on the other hand, strong defense in 2006 after just the anti-Semitic comments and the misogynistic ones. Now because there`s this other stuff, now you have silence.
BEHAR: Ok. Ted, you want to respond to any of the things that we just were talking about?
TED HAGGARD, FOUNDER, ST. JAMES CHURCH: I think it`s very interesting. I think the big message is that there`s no such thing as a secret and all of us should live our lives as if there`s no such thing as a secret. I certainly got that message and I think this models that.
As for Christian leadership response, they put me out 3 1/2 years ago. So I don`t know how they`re going to respond. I know that where I am is that I`m just convinced that all of us need grace and this is just a perfect model of it.
I mean it`s atrocious, it`s very sad, it`s horrific, it`s the worst of everything and so what it says to me is -- I mean, I watched myself go through some ugly, ugly, ugly stages in my own life. And I needed a lot of grace.
And so I think it`s just really sad and I think he`s going to need a lot of grace. I think he`s probably wise in being real quiet right now.
BEHAR: But you know Stephen, Mel says he`s a religious man. You know, he did the "Passion of the Christ" and he`s a very religious catholic. He has his own church or something. This behavior is very un- Christian, don`t you agree?
STEPHEN BALDWIN, ACTOR: Yes, well, you know, you`re absolutely right, Joy. But, you know, there`s spiritual warfare every day. And in the spiritual warfare between the spirit of God and Jesus and the spirit that is against that, there`s warfare every day.
So what you`re seeing is just a lot of people attacking Mel who really kind of the haters, so to speak. The people who just -- they`d like to see him fall. They`d like to see him go down. They`d like to see things get worse. Yada, yada, yada, ya. It`s just -- it`s -- it`s very disappointing.
And -- I`m going --
BEHAR: Have you heard the tapes? Have you heard the tapes, Stephen?
BALDWIN: Yes, Joy, I heard the tapes. So obviously, there`s something wrong with the guy. What do we do to help him and not bash him? Why don`t we help the guy?
BEHAR: Oh I see. I see.
BALDWIN: Why don`t we help him Joy? Let`s love him.
BEHAR: What should we do?
BALDWIN: Let`s love him and help him. Yes. We should try to make him -- we should try to make him better, don`t you think? What if this happened to you, Joy?
BEHAR: This would never -- this would not happen to me.
BALDWIN: What if this happened to you?
BEHAR: This idea that "There, but for the grace of God, go I," is a bunch of baloney. I have never been in that type of situation.
BALDWIN: Oh ok.
BEHAR: I don`t talk to people like that. No one talks to me like that. So let`s get off that right now, ok?
BALDWIN: Yes.
BEHAR: All right. Sit tight we have much more to discuss --
BALDWIN: Are you perfect? Are you perfect?
BEHAR: Yes, I am.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, Lindsay Lohan reportedly hires O.J. Simpson`s super lawyer, Robert Shapiro. Will he be able to keep Lindsay out of jail by placing her in rehab?
And Jillian Lauren tells Joy what it was like to spend 18 months as a harem girl for the Prince of Brunei.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: I`m back with Stephen Baldwin, Ted Haggard and reporter Rebecca Dana, discussing Mel Gibson and redemption. Let`s listen to another part of the rant from Radar Online.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You almost killed us. Did you forget?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last three years has been a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gravy train for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were hitting a woman with a child in her hands. You, what kind of man is that, hitting a woman when she`s holding a child in her hands? Breaking her teeth twice in her face. What kind of man is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you`re all angry now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to get it -- you know what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deserve it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to answer one day, boy, you`re going to answer. Bet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, what? Are you threatening me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing, nothing. I`m not the one to threaten.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll put you in a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rose garden, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ted, what kind of man is that?
TED HAGGARD, FOUNDER, ST. JAMES CHURCH: Well, it`s a man that should never, ever, ever drink one more drop of alcohol again for the rest of his life.
BEHAR: He wasn`t drunk. I don`t think he`s drunk, Ted.
HAGGARD: Well, if -- if he`s not drunk then he needs to go to therapy now and get the help that he needs. It`s -- it`s bad. It -- it shows all kinds of grief, pain, a desire to control, a desire to be in charge, sexual abnormalities, all kinds of things going on there.
And he --
BEHAR: What about her pain? Is there any -- do you feel --
HAGGARD: -- and she`s in -- what it shows is that when we get into situations like this, like a custody battle over a child, people hurt each other, they destroy each other, they manipulate each other, and people get sick. Then they need help, and -- and this is a perfect model of that. And I hope both of them get help, and it`s a model for everybody.
BEHAR: Would you -- let me ask you something, Ted, would you have him in your church? You have a new church -- would you -- would you accept him?
HAGGARD: Oh absolutely. Our church is for people who are in need, and he obviously is in need as is everybody. And he would be more than welcome in our church. And we would do everything we can to stabilize his life.
I`ve been through this same thing, Joy. Listen, I did and said some horrible things. I`m so much better now. I`m healthy now. And I know that --
BEHAR: I don`t remember anything that you -- Ted, I know your story.
HAGGARD: Yes.
BEHAR: You never hit your wife, you were never verbally abusive to her.
HAGGARD: Yes. That`s right.
BEHAR: All you did was something that the church did not approve of and you broke your marriage vows.
HAGGARD: That`s right, that`s true.
BEHAR: That is not in the same category as this. I`m sorry.
HAGGARD: It is -- it is true, but it shows human need. It shows that humanity is sick and it`s true. Different people are different -- are in need in different areas.
BEHAR: He doesn`t seem to be contrite at all. He seems to be blaming her for his issues.
HAGGARD: Well -- and that`s a problem.
BEHAR: Yes that is the problem.
HAGGARD: That is the problem. He needs to -- he needs to be very open. What I did was I was just very open. I repented publicly. I took public responsibility and got my life in shape. And he needs to go that same route.
BEHAR: Ok, Rebecca?
REBECCA DANA, THE DAILY BEAST: One thing that`s so interesting about these tapes is that back in the wake of the "The Passion of the Christ" when there were all of these concerns about the lurid, really pornographic violence of that movie and the Christian right came to support Mel and defend him and say, no, this is -- this is how you have to experience the crucifixion of Jesus.
Now to hear the personal origins of this anger to hear really how violent this person is I think it casts the movie in a whole new light.
HAGGARD: Well, let me give a theological response to that, if I may.
BEHAR: Make it short because I want to ask Stephen a question too.
HAGGARD: Ok.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
HAGGARD: Theologians say the depth of the suffering of Christ is reflecting of the depth of our own sinfulness. And so -- and when he did portray the depth of suffering he could have very well been reflecting the revelation of the depth of his own awareness of his own sin.
BEHAR: Ok, Stephen, let me ask you something, because the Reverend Haggard did -- Pastor Haggard did mention that there was alcohol involved here.
Some are saying he has substance abuse. Is that any justification for this type of behavior?
BALDWIN: No, obviously there`s -- there`s no justification for this type of behavior. But as I said before, you know, Mel Gibson`s a guy who has given a lot to the Hollywood industry. He`s made a lot of people a lot of money. And here he is going through obviously a horrible situation.
Where are the people, you know, that he`s blessed in the past that are now trying to stand up and support him now? It`s just -- it`s really tragic.
BEHAR: You know, I can`t believe that Christians even mention money. What does money have to do with Jesus?
DANA: Also, going through a horrible situation, this is a horrible situation allegedly of his own making. It certainly sounds like his -- his voice on these tapes. And if it is him, then, my God --
BALDWIN: No look --
DANA: -- this is -- this is not something that`s being foisted on Mel Gibson.
BALDWIN: -- let`s not kid around Joy, -- Joy --
BEHAR: Yes.
BALDWIN: -- Joy, let`s not kid around, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok let`s not, yes.
BALDWIN: We know who you are, Joy. And here we are clearly in the court of Joy Behar and he`s guilty before proven innocent. He`s guilty in your mind. And you got this gal from the Beast and you guys -- you`re going -- Joy, you`re going to spin it the way you want.
BEHAR: What was -- Stephen what would you have to say for you to say he`s -- that say that he`s guilty?
BALDWIN: Well, Joy --
BEHAR: What would he have to say?
BALDWIN: Joy why do you and this woman from "The Beast" hate Christians? Why?
BEHAR: Oh, now you`re really going too far.
HAGGARD: Yes I think that is --
BEHAR: Now you`ve gone too far. Pastor Haggard, jump in there and defend the Christian girl, Italian Catholic. Go ahead.
BALDWIN: Why Joy?
BEHAR: I want to hear this.
HAGGARD: I hear what Stephen is saying --
BEHAR: How dare you?
HAGGARD: But I must say that in the midst -- I am a Christian. In the midst of my troubles, Joy gave me voice, she gave me opportunity and she doesn`t hate Christians.
BEHAR: Thank you. Thank you, Teddy.
BALDWIN: Ok. All right. Ted, you`re welcome.
BEHAR: Ok. Stay right there. We have more on the alleged Gibson tapes when we come back.
I love Teddy. Teddy is my man.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Stephen Baldwin, Ted Haggard and reporter Rebecca Dana.
You know, Stephen I have to take you up on something. Why do you say that I`m not a Christian? Why did you say that to me?
BALDWIN: I didn`t say you weren`t a Christian. I said that the way you express yourself, it seems like you don`t like or perhaps hate Christians --
BEHAR: That I hate Christians.
BALDWIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Why? Why do you say that? Why?
BALDWIN: Well, I don`t see you really kind of expressing yourself in any way towards individuals that are Christians that you talk about in any kind of a positive way. Now, Ted aside from that --
BEHAR: And you too. I didn`t say anything against you. You`re a Christian. Rebecca`s a Christian. I didn`t say anything against here.
DANA: I`m a Jew.
BEHAR: Oh, sorry.
This guy, this guy rants against gays, Jews, blacks and women. And I`m the one you take on as a bad Christian? As someone who hates Christians? What`s up with you, Stephen? Come on. That`s crazy talk.
BALDWIN: Ok. I`m sorry, Joy, I`m crazy.
BEHAR: Get back on the meds.
HAGGARD: If I can say something in defense of Stephen for just a second and that is --
BEHAR: You`re too good, Teddy. Go ahead.
HAGGARD: He`s doing the right thing as he`s saying we`re listening to some tapes that are being strategically released, some are saying they`re doctored.
BEHAR: No, no, no, no. They`re not saying they`re doctored, Teddy. They`re not. There`s some people are questioning that they`re edited.
BALDWIN: Joy, are you saying that you don`t think that Oksana set him up at all?
HAGGARD: He`s just saying hold the judgment for a little bit, although I must say, I must say every one of us are hearing this and this should be a good reminder to all of us, there`s no such thing as a secret. Life can turn on us very, very easily. We need to be careful in what we do. And when we see people in pain we have to try to help them.
And I think that`s what Stephen`s trying to say.
BEHAR: So in other words, you can think these things that you hate Jews and blacks and women and homosexuals, but don`t get it on tape? Is that what you`re saying?
HAGGARD: Well, no. I`m saying you need to get healed, so you`re not a hateful person. You need to be loving, kind and forgiving.
BEHAR: You know what? You know what? This guy has not asked --
BALDWIN: Did you hear that, Joy?
BEHAR: Yes, fine.
BALDWIN: Did you hear that, Joy?
BEHAR: Yes, I heard it. I heard it. You know what, Stephen, Mel is not asking for forgiveness, so how can we give it to him? Shouldn`t he ask first and say please?
BALDWIN: Well, no, I think at this point -- which personally I think this whole thing is a setup on behalf of this chick Oksana.
BEHAR: Oh, really? Why?
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Why?
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
BEHAR: So what about the photo? There`s a photo of her getting her teeth knocked out and the baby being injured. Is that a setup, too? That she made up the photo, too? Where do we see the --
(CROSS TALKING)
BALDWIN: Joy, do you think in passionate relationships like this that people can`t entice one another and coax one another and --
DANA: To use the "N" word?
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: Is that foreplay to him, to use the "N" word?
DANA: I mean it`s obviously a set up -- she turned on the tape recorder but she didn`t make him drop the "N" bomb.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BALDWIN: That`s not the point. That`s not the point I`m trying to make.
BEHAR: What is the point you`re trying to make?
BALDWIN: You can provoke someone to have a reaction. What that reaction is going to be can be condemning. That`s what we`re looking at here.
BEHAR: Did you ever hear the words overreaction? This is an overreaction to anything. She says to him, I want to go outside and buy an apple and he goes berserk on her, uses the c word, the f word.
(CROSS TALKING)
BALDWIN: You`re right. And that`s wrong. That`s absolutely wrong. And he needs help and we should try to get into the solution of what we can do to love and support Mel Gibson. That`s what we should do.
BEHAR: Ok. You know what? I have enjoyed this talk.
Thanks, everyone. We`ll be back in a minute. I love my Teddy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, author Jillian Lauren tells Joy what it was like to go from being an NYU dropout to a harem girl for the Prince of Brunei.
Now, back to Joy.
BEHAR: Five days before her jail sentence is to begin, there`s a report that Lindsay Lohan has hired former O.J. lawyer Robert Shapiro to help her, and Shapiro may have a surprise witness. Turns out Kato Kaelin has been living in the back of Lindsay`s car.
Here with all the latest Lohan news is Jerry Penacoli, correspondent for "Extra". Hey, Jerry.
Now, there are reports that -
JERRY PENACOLI, CORRESPONDENT, EXTRA: I can always count on you, Joy. That`s - that`s a good one. I may steal that. That`s great.
BEHAR: You can have it.
OK, so there are reports - Lindsay has entered a rehab facility, I understand. Tell me about that.
PENACOLI: Well, it`s interesting because you mentioned Robert Shapiro, and of course he`s the former O.J. dream team member -
BEHAR: Right.
PENACOLI: -- and he has, in fact, become Lindsay Lohan`s lawyer.
His son, Brent, died of a drug overdose in 2005, and, as a result, he actually started up a sober house, and this is where - very strategic move on his part. This is where he put Lindsay as of yesterday or this morning. Samantha Ronson has been seen - you know, her on again, off again - has been seen going in. Dina, her mother, has been seen going in to visit.
So the problem is - and here`s the big problem, Lindsay Lohan is scheduled to turn herself in to begin a 90-day jail sentence next Tuesday -
BEHAR: Right.
PENACOLI: -- so it`s kind of like putting the cart before the horse.
BEHAR: So Robert Shapiro is representing her then, yes?
PENACOLI: Yes, he is representing her and, you know, part of her - her sentence after jail is to go to rehab. So that`s what I mean by putting the cart before the horse.
BEHAR: I see.
PENACOLI: She is court mandated, supposed to be going to - to rehab after how many ever days she serves in the Lynwood Detention Center, which, by the way, reports coming out of there are not good. It`s supposedly horrific, horrific conditions.
BEHAR: I know. I was reading about it.
PENACOLI: Unsanitary - yes.
BEHAR: Open toilets and no lids, the toilets are clogged and there`s dried feces everywhere. There`s an infection going around. You can barely sleep at night from all the coughing.
PENACOLI: Yes.
BEHAR: And there are girls with body lies. This sounds worse than the prison that Joran van der Sloot was supposed to go to in Peru.
PENACOLI: In fact, his prison sounds like a country club compared to this one, right?
BEHAR: I mean, really. I mean, the inmates are describing it that way. Is that true? Isn`t that the same facility that Paris Hilton was in?
PENACOLI: As a matter of fact -
BEHAR: She didn`t complain.
PENACOLI: No. In fact, she even said that all of the - the female inmates treated her like a gem, and they all would talk through the vents and they - they treated her - they were very supportive to her.
BEHAR: Wow.
PENACOLI: And I got that straight from - straight from her mouth after she was released from Lynwood, so either things -
BEHAR: And Paris is so positive -
PENACOLI: -- have gotten really bad or -
BEHAR: Paris is very positive. Everywhere she goes, it`s the Hamptons. You know?
Now, I heard that Lindsay had some visitors last night in the facility? Who came to visit her?
PENACOLI: Samantha Ronson, her, you know -
BEHAR: Oh. Oh, that`s right.
PENACOLI: -- they say former, ex, but, you know - her former girlfriend, rather, but she - there - there`s video and -
BEHAR: Oh, so always Samantha. Anybody else? Nobody else?
PENACOLI: Her mother. Her mother, Dina.
BEHAR: Oh, her mother. Yes. And that`s it?
PENACOLI: Her mother, Dina, has been there as well.
BEHAR: Why don`t you visit her, Jerry?
PENACOLI: That`s it so far, and I`m sure - I`m sure -
You know, I`m a little busy, Joy.
BEHAR: I think I`m going to visit her when I`m in L.A. I feel like I should visit.
PENACOLI: I think you should. She would be tickled if you went to visit her.
BEHAR: She`s a cute girl. She was adorable in that movie, what was it, "Mean Girls"? She was great in that.
PENACOLI: "Mean Girls". You know - you know, here`s what I say about Lindsay - you know what, Joy? Here`s what I say about Lindsay Lohan all the time. I say this is such a shame. She needs to straighten herself out, because the girl has talent. She`s actually a pretty good actor.
BEHAR: Yes.
PENACOLI: And - and, you know, it`s a shame to kind of waste that away. And so I hope she really, truly gets the help that she needs.
And this district attorney, by the way, is basically saying Robert Shapiro, you can cry rehab all you want, but this girl`s going to jail. And this judge is making sure that she goes to jail. And you know what? Honestly, I think it`s the best thing that could happen to her. And then, of course, get better, get healthy in rehab.
BEHAR: OK. Thanks very much, Jerry.
PENACOLI: Joy, always a pleasure.
BEHAR: My next guest was at NYU, studying to be an actress, but she found herself in Brunei, working in a harem.
Here with me now is the author of "Some Girls: My Life in a Harem", Jillian Lauren. Jillian, welcome to the show.
JILLIAN LAUREN, AUTHOR, "SOME GIRLS: MY LIFE IN A HAREM": Thank you for having me.
BEHAR: You`re in New Jersey. You`re studying at NYU. Next thing you know, you`re in Brunei, in a harem. How - you know, what happened there?
LAUREN: There were a few steps in between. I left high school a year early, so I was very young. I was in New York. I started working as a stripper to support myself when I dropped out of NYU, and, you know, I - I met people in that world, and one of them was a woman who drew me in to doing escort work, and then at the audition that led me to Brunei.
BEHAR: What audition?
LAUREN: Well, she said come to this audition. They`re looking for women to entertain rich businessmen in Singapore, and you`ll make $20,000 in two weeks, which was astronomical to me. And - and I went, and it was just an interview and a photo shoot.
BEHAR: Just to check you out.
LAUREN: Yes. Exactly.
BEHAR: So then the Prince of Brunei, he - he saw those photos, probably and -
LAUREN: That`s right.
BEHAR: -- and the interview and he picked you to come to Brunei to be part of his harem.
LAUREN: Yes. And they called and said, actually, it`s not a businessman in Singapore. It`s the Prince of Brunei. And I said, where? I`ve never even heard of Brunei.
BEHAR: So, like, never mind.
So you get to Brunei and you become one of 40 women in this harem of Prince Jefri.
LAUREN: Yes.
BEHAR: And did you spend a lot of time with him when you got there?
LAUREN: Not immediately. He pretty much ignored me for a couple of weeks. Then I thought --
BEHAR: Well, sure. There`s 39 others.
LAUREN: Yes. It took me a while to -- for him to notice me, but he pretty much ignored me. I thought, wow, maybe I did really just get invited here to be a party guest.
And - and then, he - he showed some interest in me, and -
BEHAR: Well, it said - it said in your book that you were one of his preferred women.
LAUREN: That`s right, and then I wound up being his second favorite girlfriend --
BEHAR: His second favorite.
LAUREN: -- for a while. His second favorite.
BEHAR: Well, is that good - is that good or bad? I mean, that - that sounds like you had to sleep with the guy a lot if you`re his favorite.
LAUREN: Well, I never had to sleep with the guy. I wanted to sleep with the guy.
BEHAR: You never slept with him?
LAUREN: I did. No, I just didn`t have to.
BEHAR: Oh.
LAUREN: I mean, I could decide to say (ph) -
BEHAR: You liked him. Is he cute?
LAUREN: I liked him. He`s cute.
BEHAR: Who does he look like? Like, give me a movie star he looks like. Robert Redford or Brad Pitt?
LAUREN: Well, neither. He`s - he`s Southeast Asian.
BEHAR: (INAUDIBLE) or Tony Randall. I mean, who - in what department? Give me -
LAUREN: Well, he has sort of a - I always thought of him as, like, a Southeast Asian Errol Flynn or something. Like, he was very -
BEHAR: Oh, gorgeous.
LAUREN: Yes, he was handsome. He was a womanizer. He was bright. He was very good at playing the game.
BEHAR: He spoke good English, I presume.
LAUREN: Perfect English.
BEHAR: Perfect English?
LAUREN: He went to Oxford. Yes. Very smart guy.
BEHAR: So you liked him?
LAUREN: I did.
BEHAR: So, now, that`s interesting, because - now, you`re brought there and you liked the guy, and yet you`re competing with 39 other women, even though he prefers you to the 38 -
LAUREN: Right.
BEHAR: -- he still prefers one other to you.
LAUREN: And she was actually my closest friend there.
BEHAR: You know, you`re really - you`re too much. I would have been so jealous then.
LAUREN: There was a lot of jealousy. There was rivalry. But there was also, you know, real closeness between the women. It was all of that.
BEHAR: You were number one and number two. Ever do a menage a trios with him, the other woman?
LAUREN: I didn`t. I didn`t, but I heard -
BEHAR: Do you regret that you didn`t?
LAUREN: I heard tell of it happening. No, I don`t regret that.
BEHAR: You don`t regret that?
I mean, here`s a nice girl from New Jersey, and this is how she`s spending her time. What did your mother and father have to say about this? You were young.
LAUREN: I was very young. I had just turned 18 when I went to Brunei. You know, my mother -
BEHAR: Were there any women in menopause in the - the harem?
LAUREN: No. We thought the woman who was 30 was really old.
BEHAR: Oh.
LAUREN: We used to gossip about her.
BEHAR: Did he like her?
LAUREN: She was the first favorite. So it goes to show you something.
BEHAR: So mommy - tell me about mother.
LAUREN: Well, you know, at first I told them - I was in New York, trying to be an actress at the time, and at first I told them that I was - I had gotten this job in a movie in Singapore. And then the movie got longer and longer. And I eventually had to tell them, actually, I`m working as a personal assistant in Brunei, and my mother`s like, "What?", you know -
BEHAR: Why - why did she get upset?
LAUREN: Well, you know -
BEHAR: That`s a good job.
LAUREN: I think that, you know, they knew me well enough by then to know that I was probably up to no good, and they were terribly worried. And, you know, I worried them and I hurt them, and -
BEHAR: Well, they knew that you had been a stripper, right?
LAUREN: Potentially, they knew I had been a stripper, but I don`t think so. They might have suspected.
BEHAR: So then - so then, what happened? So, how long were you there?
LAUREN: I was there for a year and a half, on and off. I went and came back, went and came back.
BEHAR: And then - so why did you go eventually - why did you leave at the end of the run?
LAUREN: Well, it had been a year and a half, and I had grown really depressed, and -
BEHAR: Why?
LAUREN: Well, because it wasn`t the most fulfilling way to spend my time.
BEHAR: What did you do? You got up in the morning -
LAUREN: Well, we got up in the morning -
BEHAR: Yes.
LAUREN: This sounds like a vacation. It`s going to sound like a vacation. I got up in the morning, very late because we went to parties every night till 3:00, 4:00 in the morning. We ate. We hung out by the pool. We watched laser disks. We went to the gym on the property. We couldn`t leave the property of the -
BEHAR: Oh, you were sort of a prisoner there?
LAUREN: We weren`t prisoners. I mean, we could leave if we wanted to leave and go home, but we couldn`t go to the mall.
BEHAR: No, you couldn`t. It`s like "Sex and the City". Did you see that movie? They were over in --
LAUREN: I didn`t see the second one.
BEHAR: They were in the Middle East in that film. It reminds me of that kind of a life, except they weren`t sleeping with the - the prince. And then didn`t the prince give his brother - didn`t he give you as a gift to his brother?
LAUREN: Yes, once.
BEHAR: He did? So how did that work out? What do they call him? The Sultan?
LAUREN: The Sultan.
BEHAR: The Sultan is a - is a bigger shot than the Prince?
LAUREN: Yes. The Sultan of Brunei was the wealthiest man in the world at the time.
BEHAR: He is?
LAUREN: Yes.
BEHAR: And so you had to sleep with him, then?
LAUREN: Pretty much, yes.
BEHAR: Who did you like better, the Sultan or the Prince?
LAUREN: Well, the Prince was really my boyfriend, but in the book I describe it as the sultan was really happy to have a little fling with you, but the Prince demanded that you love him. That`s what he wanted.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s it. Oh, control freak.
LAUREN: Yes. So, it`s harder, you know? He was very narcissistic.
BEHAR: Yes. The control prince, we`ll call him.
LAUREN: OK.
BEHAR: Jillian, thanks very much.
OK, global outrage grows as a mother of two is set to be stoned to death in Iran. We`ll take a look at this case and whether the brutal practice can be stopped.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Outrage grows over Iran`s plan to stone to death a 43-year-old woman who was convicted of adultery. While the ruling is officially under review, prosecutors in Iran are reportedly saying she also murdered her husband. Is there anything that can be done to save her, and how do we end this barbaric practice?
With me are Irshad Manji, author of "The Trouble with Islam Today" and director of the Moral Courage Project at New York University; and Reza Aslan, author of "No god but God", the origins, evolution and future of Islam and contributor to the "Daily Beast".
Irshad, let`s be - let us be clear about what`s going on here. What is the woman - what is she accused of and her so-called crime?
IRSHAD MANJI, AUTHOR, THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM TODAY: It`s so murky. For starters, she was accused of having a, quote, "elicit affair outside of marriage". She actually submitted herself to 99 lashings after she was accused of that. And then, the case was supposedly closed.
But then, in 2006, it was unexpectedly reopened. And then she was accused of both adultery and murdering her husband. But she -
BEHAR: Do they have proof of the - her murdering her husband?
MANJI: Not only do they not have proof, Joy, but the proof that they don`t have proof is that three out of the five judges in the case invoked a special clause in Iranian law that lets these judges say that they have special knowledge that can`t be proven by evidence, and three out of the five went there, two of them dissented. Therefore, she was convicted on the adultery charge.
BEHAR: Are you shocked that two dissented?
MANJI: No, I`m not. I mean, look, Shia Islam is far more, you know, nuanced than most people understand, and there is a lot of internal debate about these issues within Iran.
BEHAR: Yes.
MANJI: We don`t hear a lot about that, you know, debate, obviously.
BEHAR: But you saw that when there was the revolt going on --
MANJI: Absolutely.
BEHAR: -- you saw it what the - where the people were at.
MANJI: Right.
BEHAR: So to - to think that it`s not a heterogeneous or, you know --
MANJI: Yes. It`s not a monolithic society.
BEHAR: Right. It`s not monolithic.
MANJI: And I`m really glad that you bring that up because, you know, this campaign to end stoning in Iran around the world, quite frankly, is not about condemning the people of Iran, who themselves suffer under this despotic regime -
BEHAR: Right.
MANJI: -- and are being thrown in jail at record numbers and often executed while in jail. And it`s not even about slamming Persian traditions. In fact, Joy, it can be argued that the Persian Empire created the concept of human rights.
This is about supporting the Iranian people`s fight against a regime that is made up of ideological extremists, and these extremists, Joy, are such cowards that they hide behind the legitimacy of religion in order to pull that nonsense (ph).
BEHAR: Well, that`s my question for you, Reza. Is stoning part of Islamic law? Does the Koran call for stoning?
REZA ASLAN, AUTHOR, NO GOD BUT GOD: No. Actually, there`s no stoning anywhere in the Koran. But the punishment for stoning for adultery is part of the Islamic penal code, in almost every single Muslim majority country in the world. But it`s there only in symbolic fashion. I mean, nobody actually pays any attention to it.
And, in fact, I just want to correct something that you said. It`s not the Iranian government that has condemned this woman to stoning. Stoning is actually now illegal, according to the federal government in Iran. There`s been a moratorium there on stoning for the last decade or so.
In this case, what`s happening is that you have these rural -
BEHAR: Really? There`s been - there`s been a moratorium? Because --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wait a minute. I read a report -
MANJI: That`s theory. That`s theory. That is not reality.
ASLAN: Please let me finish. That is absolutely true.
BEHAR: I read a report today - let me just tell you this part.
MANJI: It`s theory, not reality. I know you`re an intellectual, but let`s deal (ph) with the real fact.
ASLAN: No. No, it is - let me - if I can please just finish.
BEHAR: All right. Go ahead.
ASLAN: The federal government in Tehran has had for more than a decade a moratorium on stoning. Sakineh is the 13th person to be saved from being stoned to death. It`s these villages, these rural villages who understand that the law is on the books but do not understand, of course, the complexities that Irshad is talking about and the reasons why the Iranian government has placed a moratorium.
In 13 cases over the last two years, when somebody in one of these villages was about to be stoned to death, there was international outcry, as there was in this case. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the entire global community came on and forced the Iranian government to actually send a representative to these villages to put an end to it, and that`s probably what will happen here.
BEHAR: All right, Reza. I have to say that I read a report today that two more women have been sentenced to death by stoning in Iran. One is only 19, the other is pregnant.
MANJI: Can - can we - for your audience, Joy, we can just explain what death by stoning even means?
BEHAR: Sure.
MANJI: Because most people, actually, in my experience, don`t even believe that something like this can happen in the 21st century.
BEHAR: Tell them.
MANJI: What happens is that individuals, both women and men, not just women, although disproportionately women, are alive, and they are lowered into freshly dug dirt pits and then rocks are hurled at them, but these rocks are small enough to inflict pain, but - excuse me, they are not large enough to kill instantly.
So it`s a long, drawn-out, gruesome process.
BEHAR: It sounds pretty bad. Now -
(CROSSTALK)
MANJI: It`s the 21st century version of, you know, burning heretics at the stake.
ASLAN: That`s right. Absolutely. It`s a --
BEHAR: Why doesn`t - Reza, why doesn`t the U.N. do something to stop this?
MANJI: Well, I`m happen to say that the - oh, Reza? (INAUDIBLE).
ASLAN: Well, the U.N. has tried - well, the U.N. actually has tried, and - and in fact, like I said, there are about five counties in the world, Sudan, Somalia, Iran, Nigeria, in which stoning is still part of the penal code. But, again, even in these countries, and in fact, a case like this came up in Nigeria just a few years ago, when enough international pressure is brought upon these countries by the government, they themselves put a stop to it. A lot of stonings still take place in these rural villages, stonings that we never care about.
BEHAR: It doesn`t seem like any - but you know what, Reza, it`s my impression as an American is that nothing stops Ahmadinejad. Nothing stops them from doing exactly what they want to do.
MANJI: Joy -
BEHAR: No amount of pressure, nothing.
ASLAN: Let me just explain something. I think - I think there`s something very important to explain here and I think you brought it up a little bit about the heterogeneity of this.
BEHAR: I only have - I only have 15 seconds, Reza. Finish it up please.
ASLAN: This has nothing to do with Ahmadinejad. It has nothing to do with Tehran. It has to do with the fact that you have these tribal villages who are essentially creating these kangaroo courts and using stoning, as Irshad said, as a misogynistic tool.
BEHAR: Correct.
MANJI: But the price in this case is that international outrage is working. Go to freesakineh.org where you can sign a petition that will go to the proper Iranian authorities -
BEHAR: OK.
MANJI: -- and to the United Nations. And it`s already gotten a response from the Iranian regime. So -
BEHAR: OK.
MANJI: -- keep the pressure on, folks.
BEHAR: OK. We`re going to continue this after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: According to religious tradition, Muslim women are often covered from head to toe. Some governments like France are banning the burqa. Is that OK? Could it happen here?
OK. This ban would be for any veils that cover the face including the burqa. Do you believe that this ban is right or wrong in France?
MANJI: I`ll tell you something, I am torn, but when push comes to shove, I say that it`s the right thing to do. Look, I`m a pro-choice feminist. I don`t like the idea of taking choices away from Muslim women about how they`d like to dress. But the reality is that a lot of Muslim women are forced to wear the burqa.
And secondly, the culture, the mindset, the tribal mindset that the burqa represents, down the road, winds up taking many more choices away from many more women than if, you know, women are stopped from wearing the burqa in public spaces. Remember, Joy, they are not being stopped from wearing the burqa in their homes, OK? Just in -
BEHAR: Only outside of their homes.
MANJI: -- public spaces. And it`s just - it`s the face veil.
BEHAR: Well, they couldn`t exactly -
MANJI: It`s the face veil. We`re not even talking about the head scarf here. All right? So women still have in France - Muslim women, a lot of choices.
BEHAR: OK.
MANJI: We`re saying don`t take choices away from other women in future generations.
BEHAR: Reza, what do you say? Do you agree with that?
ASLAN: I say - you know, I say this to you, Irshad, because we`re friends and you know I love you. But that`s one of the sexist things I`ve ever heard in my life.
MANJI: Bring it on, baby. Bring it on.
ASLAN: First of all - first of all, let`s get one thing straight. This is not a burqa. The only people on earth who wear burqas are South Asians and Afghans. The reason the French call this a burqa is specifically to create this fear that if we allow women to actually wear a niqab, which is a face covering, then that`s the first step to the Talibanization of France.
Secondly, one half of one percent of Muslim women - one half of one percent of Muslim women in France actually wear this face covering. So the idea that you need to pass a federal law to sort of suppress this Islamization of France is, I think, absurd.
And last of all, this is a statement directly to what Irshad just said -
BEHAR: The sexist, Irshad (ph).
ASLAN: -- it`s appalling - it`s appalling to say that, you know, that the veil, the face veil is a symbol of female oppression. Look, the fact is that the vast majority of those who actually protested against this were French women who wore the veil.
MANJI: Reza -
ASLAN: These women are smart.
MANJI: You know -
ASLAN: They`re educated. They`re literate. Let me finish, Irshad.
MANJI: Then finish.
ASLAN: And for you - for you to say - for you to say -
MANJI: Come on, bring it on home.
ASLAN: -- that it`s a symbol -
Well, I`m trying to. For you to say that it`s a symbol of oppression is akin to these Muslim fundamentalists that you disagree with so much.
BEHAR: OK.
ASLAN: That it`s a symbol of humility.
BEHAR: That is - all right, Reza.
ASLAN: The veil is not a symbol for -
MANJI: He`s not finishing.
ASLAN: -- anything.
BEHAR: OK. Reza.
ASLAN: The veil is a symbol -
BEHAR: Reza, stop it.
ASLAN: -- for nothing. Nothing.
MANJI: OK.
BEHAR: We need just counterpoint now. Point, counterpoint.
MANJI: Thank you very much, Joy. The - the reality also is that, you know, Muslim women in France when polled, a majority have said that the reason they support bans like this, Joy, is not because they oppose Islam, it`s not because they oppose, you know, the Koran.
It`s because they oppose - and this goes right to the myth that my good friend and nonsexist Reza Aslan is promoting. It goes - they`re saying Muslim women -
BEHAR: No, no, no, no. Don`t you take this -
MANJI: No, no, no, no. Muslim women are saying that they oppose the harassment, the violence, the bullying and the intimidation, to which they`ll be treated at the hands of men in their communities if they don`t wear it.
BEHAR: But I worry about this ban.
MANJI: That comes from Muslim women.
BEHAR: I worry about this ban creating more anger in the Muslim area.
ASLAN: Joy -
MANJI: Sure.
BEHAR: We got to go.
MANJI: We all worry about it.
BEHAR: We got to go.
ASLAN: I want Irshad - I want Irshad to tell me what the difference is between a country that bans the veil -
BEHAR: You need to go to dinner with Irshad.
ASLAN: -- and the countries that forces it to be worn (ph).
BEHAR: Thanks for joining me tonight, guys.
MANJI: (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
