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Joy Behar Page
Lindsay Lohan`s Prison Life; Interview With Kathie Lee Gifford
Aired July 21, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, Lindsay Lohan went to jail last night and is living in an 8 x 12 cell. In California they call that punishment. In New York, we call that an apartment.
Kathie Lee Gifford has been on morning television for over 20 years. You know what, she`s always perky every morning. How does she do it? Can you say diet pills?
And Republicans continue to stall on extending benefits to over 2 million jobless Americans. Nice. So how is that whole compassionate conservative thing working out for you, huh?
That and more right now.
Lindsay Lohan is going to be stuck in a tiny cell 22 hours a day. No TV, no movies, no manicurist. Will she survive?
Here now to discuss the Lohan case is Terri Seymour, correspondent for "Extra". All right. Now tell me what you know about Lindsay`s first two days in jail.
TERRI SEYMOUR, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": Well, we know when she arrived yesterday her only visitor was her lawyer. And she said, you know, Lindsay did shed a few tears. She didn`t cry in court but she did cry when she got to jail.
Her hair extensions had to come straight out. She was given a full search; taken to her cell. And guess who is next door to her. Guess who`s name is on the cell next door?
BEHAR: Who?
SEYMOUR: Remember those Hollywood -- remember the Hollywood burglaries? One of the girls who has been sentenced for those is next door to her in the cell where Paris Hilton used to be. So could be interesting.
BEHAR: It`s old home week.
I read a report that she was given some prescription drugs. What kind of drugs were they giving her?
SEYMOUR: Ambien and Adderall.
BEHAR: Adderall.
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: For ADD. Oh, I see. She`s taking Ambien. Well, I guess, she has to fall asleep. It must be difficult to just be in that cell all day long.
SEYMOUR: For 22 hours a day. And then she`s allowed out for an hour. And during the hour, they`re allowed to take a hot shower or play basketball or just take a stroll. I think they get 20 minutes for mealtime.
BEHAR: What`s she going to do all day exactly? I mean she`s going to take a shower. Will they have books? Will they have movies? Can she watch the "Shawshank Redemption" on her iPod?
SEYMOUR: Apparently in the cell, there`s a window. You can see out in the segregation area where she is. There is actually a TV where you can see out through your window. Otherwise, I guess it`s just reading books, magazines.
BEHAR: And what about the reports that there`s lice and infection in this particular prison? Is that true or not?
SEYMOUR: Well, not where Lindsay is because don`t forget, she`s segregated from the general population. So she`s completely away from that.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Thanks, Terri.
Now, I want to turn to my panel. Steven Oberfest, who did 15 months in jail and is the founder of "Prison Coach". And Piper Kerman, who spent 13 months in a federal month and is the author of "Orange is the New Black: My year in a women`s prison".
Welcome guys.
Now Piper, you did 15 (SIC) months, huh, in a federal prison? What did you do to deserve that?
PIPER KERMAN, AUTHOR, "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK": When I was fresh out of Smith College, a young woman looking for adventure and really troubled. I crossed paths with what seemed like an impossibly sophisticated and worldly older woman who was involved in drug trafficking.
And I followed her around the globe and I carried a bag of money from Chicago to Brussels at her request; scared the pants off myself.
BEHAR: Boy, what are they teaching you at Smith College?
KERMAN: Well, I didn`t learn any of those things at Smith College.
BEHAR: You should have gone to Queens College like me. Nobody ever comes to bothers you around.
Steven, you spent 15 months in jail. What did you do?
STEVEN OBERFEST, FOUNDER, PRISON COACH: I was accused of several crimes. I took a plea bargain to racketeering.
BEHAR: You took a plea. All right. So you know from whence you speaketh, the two of you, having been in the slammer yourselves.
Lindsay`s lawyer told her that the first two days in prison are the hardest. Is that true?
OBERFEST: Absolutely. I mean, you know, of course you have the initial shock. You`re being searched. During the processing time, you can be in a holding cell for 20 minutes to four hours.
BEHAR: The cavity search. That sounds gross.
OBERFEST: I mean it`s -- you know, everything has to be checked over medication, everything she`s brought with her, for contraband. Even the medication will be handed over to the doctor. The doctor will dispense it as he sees appropriate.
BEHAR: What do you think was the worst, most difficult part of being in prison for you?
KERMAN: Well, the worst thing about being in prison is being away from your family and from your friends.
BEHAR: The loneliness.
KERMAN: And being far away from the people who love you and who need you. And the sense you can`t be there for them when they need you.
So that is far worse than bad food, horrible conditions, you know, the fact that you have lost all your rights as a person. But the sense that you`re disappointing the people who need you the most is the toughest thing.
BEHAR: And lonely -- the feeling so detached from everything.
KERMAN: Well, prisons are very, very crowded places. They can be really lonely, but they`re rarely lonely in the sense of being alone.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERMAN: You know, Lindsay`s situation is a little unusual.
BEHAR: She`s going to be all by herself. Why is she alone there, do you think? Is it because she`s famous?
KERMAN: That`s protective custody. It`s because she`s famous. They`re isolating her because they want her to be completely secure because frankly, that jail doesn`t want any problems.
BEHAR: well, I would think that being alone in this particular instance is better for her. Because, you know, the general population can be rough, I would think especially on a girl like her, right?
OBERFEST: It`s better for her and it`s better for the staff.
BEHAR: Why is it better for the staff?
OBERFEST: Because, you know, this is a -- if she was integrated in the general population, this is the perfect opportunity for someone to commit a crime against her, injure her in some way just to generate clout within the prison.
BEHAR: I see. I would be fearful also. What about -- you want to say something? Go ahead.
KERMAN: She will definitely be more secure and completely safe, in my opinion. I would be miserable locked down for 22, 23 hours a day.
My own experience of prison, which is only my own experience, was that the worst thing about prison was not other prisoners.
BEHAR: Was not other prisoners. What was the worse, besides the loneliness?
KERMAN: The worst thing was -- again, losing your rights. The fact of trying to negotiate that sentence and the worst thing about that first day in prison and that first month is sitting there and saying, "I don`t know if I can do this. I don`t know if I can make it through here."
BEHAR: Who were you scared of, though. Who were you afraid of? Because to me, I would be scared -- I would be petrified to be there.
KERMAN: Initially I was very scared of other prisoners. But I think the more time I spent in that particular unit -- I was in a low security women`s prison with nonviolent offenders. So I was not locked up with violent offenders most of the time that I was in prison. Some of them seemed scary, but they seemed a lot less scary the more time that I lived among them.
BEHAR: How about the guards?
KERMAN: The guards could be very scary. There are some nasty customers among correctional officers.
BEHAR: Did you have any recourse, Steve, when the guards are nasty to you? I mean, they are employees of the state.
OBERFEST: There is no recourse. Yes, they are employs of the state. However, you know, it`s a Catch-22. If you have a problem while you`re doing your time and approach a guard or correctional officer, as they prefer to be called, and tell them about the problem that you`re having, you`ll be labeled a snitch immediately.
The guard will not do anything probably anyhow. So the more you interact with the guards, the harder it`s going to be for you to interact with other inmates and them not thinking that you`re a rat.
BEHAR: I see.
KERMAN: If you have a problem, you really have to navigate that problem yourself. You cannot rely on staff to help you.
BEHAR: Right. I see.
Now, Lindsay was in denial about going to prison. Your company prepares people for prison, right? Isn`t that what you do? You`re a prison coach.
OBERFEST: Right.
BEHAR: How do you do that?
OBERFEST: Well, you know, once you`ve gone inside and you see where the -- you know, where the problems were as far as, again, loneliness, you know, men`s facilities, you have issues of violence and so many unwritten rules given by -- within the prison. You have the Bureau of Prison`s rules, but the inmates` rules are a lot different.
So, you know, going -- just knowing where you`re going to sit for chow. You have a table of ten African-Americans, ten white guys, ten Spanish people. Where are you going to sit? You just don`t put yourself - - even if you might not have a racist bone in your body, but you sit down with a table of African-Americans, all of a sudden everyone who`s white is going to feel betrayed.
And also, the table -- who they`re sitting with are going to like, what is this guy doing? Is he crazy?
You really have to know like little stupid things like that will really make a difference upon your initial adjustment to prison.
Again, your attitude also; if you walk -- if you`re -- I deal mostly with white collar crime. You know, people who have education but who never had to deal with violence in their life. They call the shots but they don`t follow the rules. And that`s you know --
BEHAR: so when you put a white collar criminal in with these guys, as you say, these tough guys, what -- how do you even negotiate that?
OBERFEST: It`s about really an attitude adjustment and fast. If you have -- you end up paying respect to your common man, whether -- due to socioeconomic reasons, and you walk in with that cockiness, the other inmates will smell that and will not be pleased with you.
BEHAR: What about women? I mean they must be like -- Lindsay, well she`s in isolation but when you were there, were there gangs of women you had to be scared of? Was there anything like that that you had to negotiate? Did you want to get in with this group? It`s almost like high school, only much more violent.
OBERFEST: It`s exactly like first day.
KERMAN: It`s exactly like high school.
OBERFEST: Yes.
KERMAN: Exactly. I mean that chow hall situation of where do I sit especially on your first day, your first week is a total reality.
There are definitely cliques. I mean aren`t gangs in the classic sense, you know, gangs are a serious, serious problem I think in men`s prisons.
I didn`t encounter any sort of gang activity in the crips/bloods --
BEHAR: No.
KERMAN: -- sort of capacity. But there`s definitely cliques and the smartest thing you can do if you are unlucky enough to land in prison is just keep your mouth shut and your eyes open, for a good long time.
BEHAR: Is it worse if -- you`re a very attractive woman, I mean is it worse if you`re a good-looking broad or if you`re not? Which is worse?
KERMAN: I mean, I think it depends on how you carry yourself. There are certainly lesbian relationships that take place in prison.
BEHAR: And then jealousy probably?
KERMAN: And certainly jealousy and all of the drama that would attend that.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERMAN: But you know, there was never a time that I felt like there was an offer made that I couldn`t refuse. But you have to have a lot of confidence, if you`re not a confident person or if you`re susceptible to manipulation, then you`ll be manipulated.
But that`s probably true on the outside as well as on in the inside.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you very much. It`s very interesting.
Ok, up next. The one and only Kathie Lee Gifford joins me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Jennifer Aniston gets a restraining order against an alleged stalker who drove cross country with duct tape, a sharp object and love notes in hopes of marrying the actress.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Well, she`s a singer, an actress and a talk show host. And she`s so perky and cheerful she makes Katie Couric look like Sylvia Platt.
Please welcome the celebrity ambassador for Child`s Help, Kathie Lee Gifford. You are perky, Kathie.
KATHIE LEE GIFFORD, CO-HOST, "TODAY": No, darling, coffee is perky. I am energetic, like the little bunny.
BEHAR: Oh ok, but I don`t know how you stay -- I mean, how you stay energetic when you were boozing it up every morning with Hoda. What`s up with that?
GIFFORD: It`s just shtick. And occasionally it`s the real thing, I mean, we would do without a that little sip here and there but if we drank through the whole thing --
BEHAR: You couldn`t say?
GIFFORD: No, you couldn`t know, you can`t function.
BEHAR: No. You would not to be able to be here --
GIFFORD: You know how that started?
BEHAR: What?
GIFFORD: Not that you care, we were -- we had Chelsea Handler on the show one day --
BEHAR: Oh great.
GIFFORD: -- and her new book had just come out, "Hello Vodka, It`s Me, Chelsea."
BEHAR: Yes.
GIFFORD: So -- so our prop guys has made up a bunch of -- cocktails for her. And what, are we going to be rude and not drink with her -- you know we are hosting her.
So we --
BEHAR: Yes but it`s -- its` morning TV.
GIFFORD: You know what, it`s working, it`s working. I don`t know, everybody if laughing about it -- it`s called -- "Time" magazine called us the happy hour.
BEHAR: Oh it`s fun.
GIFFORD: So far we haven`t heard from anybody that -- in a negative way about it.
BEHAR: No, no, no.
GIFFORD: Because I think it`s obvious that we`re teasing.
BEHAR: Yes just don`t start breastfeeding because that doesn`t work with alcohol.
GIFFORD: I know that. And -- and you just brought back so many bad memories for me.
BEHAR: Why?
GIFFORD: Because I had a tough time breastfeeding. But we`re here to talk about hammocks.
BEHAR: Did you really?
GIFFORD: Although there are a lot the same the older I get. They are sort of hammock-like.
BEHAR: We`ll get to the hammocks. We`re going to do the hammocks. But I have other things to discuss with you.
GIFFORD: Talk to me baby.
BEHAR: I mean, you know "The View" has been having like men and -- male and female co-host lately, which we never did before. How -- and you worked with -- just now you`re working with Hoda, which -- how is it different for you?
GIFFORD: I get to be now the older, cranky one, and I like it.
BEHAR: Which he was.
GIFFORD: He was the older, cranky one. Now he`s older and crankier. And -- and I get to be old and cranky. And you get away with a lot more. Joy, you`re used to what it`s like.
BEHAR: Yes.
GIFFORD: Would you want to be Elisabeth on the show?
BEHAR: Meaning?
GIFFORD: Like the young --
BEHAR: Having three children to take care of?
GIFFORD: Yes, well, I know.
BEHAR: And -- and being gluten-free constantly. I don`t think so.
GIFFORD: No, that`s not the life for you.
BEHAR: That`s not for me.
GIFFORD: Not for you, no.
No, I`m enjoying it. I didn`t think I`d stay more than a year. But I`ve fell in love with Hoda.
BEHAR: She is a doll. She`s very nice.
GIFFORD: You know what, she really, really is a great woman.
BEHAR: Now the two of you get along nicely. And I think it`s lovely to watch. Now, do you still watch Regis? You watch Regis once in a while, don`t you?
GIFFORD: You know, I have -- to this day -- nobody believes it -- but first of all I`m at my studio now, the studio so I`m not watching anything but the -- the 9:00 hour, the "Today" show. I never watched it once since the day I left.
BEHAR: When we`re at -- did you watch it when you were on?
GIFFORD: No. Yes, no, you know what it`s like. When you do television --
BEHAR: No.
GIFFORD: -- it`s the last thing in the world you want to do is watch yourself.
BEHAR: It`s a horror to watch yourself.
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: I can`t do it. I think everything -- I see everything that`s wrong. Do you?
GIFFORD: Yes. And then I -- I don`t want to be reminded of it. I live with it every day.
BEHAR: Not everybody -- not everybody is like that, you know. I worked with David Hartman when we worked at GMA together.
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: Kathie Lee and I worked at "Good Morning America" together.
GIFFORD: That`s the genesis of the friendship, yes.
BEHAR: I was just a lowly assistant, secretary receptionist.
GIFFORD: To the executive producer, Susan Winston (ph).
BEHAR: Oh, big deal. I would still go and get coffee for them.
GIFFORD: But you were doing, you we`re honing your craft every night. You were worked your buns off and look where you are now.
BEHAR: Well, we used to have lesbian hour. Did you ever come to lesbian hour?
GIFFORD: I`ve missed, I could say, you know, I wish you told me.
BEHAR: Every day at 4:00, we had lesbian hour at my desk. Anyway, David Hartman -- David Hartman used to say --
GIFFORD: I don`t know what to say.
BEHAR: -- come and watch -- come and watch me on this -- watch what I do here. He`d show us himself on television. So he liked to watch himself. That`s unusual.
GIFFORD: Yes.
No, we have many -- but yes, I`m sure you do too. Don`t you have actors and actresses who come on and when you see the clips of their movies, they can`t even look. You know they don`t like -- and others are going -- ah
BEHAR: Yes.
GIFFORD: -- because they`re in love with themselves.
BEHAR: Yes, I love when an actress is watching some emotional scene she`s done in a movie and she brings herself to tears.
Now, let me talk about your recent segment on the "Today" show when you and Hoda went without makeup.
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, let me -- let me see that. I want to see it.
GIFFORD: You`re going to show that? Oh, nice.
BEHAR: Yes I want to see it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIFFORD: It felt very strange today. I didn`t think it was going to bother me. And then I started realizing you know what, I feel vulnerable.
HODA: We`re used to having things covered up. I never thought about it really --
GIFFORD: The imperfection.
HODA: Yes.
GIFFORD: Now that I see our monitor, I know why.
HODA: Yes, it`s -- oh wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now I know why you drink on that show.
GIFFORED: Yes -- no you know and then the next, they want us to do one about our age. But that`s already out there everybody knows how it is.
BEHAR: Yes.
GIFFORD: So they said will you do one about weight? I said, don`t push it.
BEHAR: Really.
GIFFORD: They want us to get on -- you know if you can turn that monitor off, now -- that one with the -- yes.
BEHAR: Oh they`re still showing it.
GIFFORD: You know what Frank said to me --
BEHAR: I think you still look cute, Kathie.
GIFFORD: Oh thank you.
BEHAR: Yes.
GIFFORD: The next day I`m walking out to work and Frank said you`re not going to do that again, are you? You`re not going to go a makeup-less again.
BEHAR: Well, you have like a -- you have rosy cheeks. What is that?
GIFFORD: Well, that is from the drinking, yes.
BEHAR: Like W.C. Fields.
GIFFORD: You`re a little -- a little with the bulbous nose.
BEHAR: All right. Ok, we`re going to take a break. When we come back --
GIFFORD: Do we have to, Joy?
BEHAR: I know.
GIFFORD: Because I want to go back to lesbian hour.
BEHAR: All right, we`ll be right back with Kathie Lee Gifford in a minute. And we`ll talk about the hammocks.
GIFFORD: And our hammocks.
BEHAR: The hammocks are coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking with Kathie Lee Gifford. Ok, now I have to remind that tomorrow or today is national hammock day.
GIFFORD: Tomorrow Joy -- you didn`t -- mark your calendar. Yesterday was national lollipop day.
BEHAR: Really?
GIFFORD: You missed that too.
BEHAR: I did.
GIFFORD: But just in time for national hammock day is tomorrow. And nobody knows -- it`s been around a long time and nobody knows the origin of it.
BEHAR: Should I have gotten you a gift for this?
GIFFORD: No, no, no. You give a gift to yourself; some time in a hammock to decompress, to de-stress, to unplug from all of that, the craziness of your life and everybody else`s life and get in touch again with what`s just peaceful and quiet.
BEHAR: What if you don`t have a yard? Where are you supposed to put the hammock?
GIFFORD: That is problematic, you know. I mean just lay on your couch. I don`t know. This is for people that can actually have one. It`s nice to make everybody feel bad who can`t have a hammock. Nice, Joy.
BEHAR: But -- you know what, some people are deprived of a hammock and they have to live with that.
GIFFORD: They are -- but if you want to get a hammock right now, you can go to the Web site which -- golly, look what you`ve done to me, can you believe it -- hayneedle.com.
BEHAR: We have it there. What`s it called?
GIFFORD: Hayneedle.com.
BEHAR: Hayneedle.com.
GIFFORD: They called to me and said will you represent the hammocks? I`m a hammock freak. I just -- they look like instant happiness you know?
BEHAR: Did you ever have sex in a hammock?
GIFFORD: Yes. But that`s not why I love them. That`s not the only reason I love them.
BEHAR: They have to do with reducing stress, which then leads to less child abuse. Tell me about that.
GIFFORD: Well that`s the way I made the connection. They asked me to represent the product. And I love -- I adore hammocks. I said, listen I`ll be happy to do it. Can we do a joint venture with this organization I work with for a long time now called Child`s Help, which battles child abuse and neglect in our country -- huge, huge problem.
Do you know that four children a day -- a day, every day die from child abuse and neglect in our country?
BEHAR: In this country.
GIFFORD: In our country. And every ten seconds a child is abused in our nation. And it`s --
BEHAR: Unacceptable.
GIFFORD: That`s horrendous.
(CROSS TALKING)
GIFFORD: It totally is. I go down -- we go down to Washington usually the first Wednesday of every year for a day of hope. We light a candle in Congress that used to have three wicks on it because it was three children a day that were dying. In the last three years, we`ve been lighting a candle with four wicks. Because the statistics are going the wrong --
BEHAR: So it`s gotten worse.
GIFFORD: It`s much worse. It`s worse now because of the economy. So many people are under so much more stress than even before. And you know what it`s like when you`re out of work and you`re tired and you`re drinking excessively and the kids are there. Before you know it, you`ve hauled off and hurt somebody you love.
BEHAR: I never believe you should touch a child, spanking, even tapping. I don`t like it at all.
GIFFORD: I know. I know you`ve always said that.
BEHAR: I`m very much against that and I fight with my co-hosts all the time because it`s not necessarily what everybody believes.
GIFFORD: I don`t think you should beat your children, at all. I have smacked my kids on the rear end, believe me, and gotten their attention.
BEHAR: Why? All they do is remember that you hit them?
GIFFORD: And gotten their attention. Are you kidding?
BEHAR: They don`t remember why.
GIFFORD: My kids are not in jail. They`re not in rehab. They knew that there were limits on them and that nothing -- they were never hurt. I have on occasion swatted them. But they have -- I`ve never left a mark, never damaged them.
BEHAR: No. We know that.
GIFFORD: And a lot of -- everybody has their feeling about this. I think that you should parent in the way you feel is right. Beating anybody is completely wrong.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you so much for stopping by. Really. It`s great to see you.
GIFFORD: I hate it when you read a prompter. It`s so insincere. Totally insincere woman.
BEHAR: I`m sorry. For more information on preventing child abuse, go to childhelp.org.
And I`ll have the latest on the arrest of Jennifer Aniston`s stalker next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Jennifer Aniston has succeeded in getting a restraining order against a man who allegedly drove across the country to stalk her. Police found Jason Peyton lying in wait for Aniston on Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles with a sharp object, a bag and a roll of duct tape. And unfortunately, Aniston is just one of a long list of celebrities who is being stalked now. With me to discuss the growing phenomenon are A.J. Hammer host of HLN`s SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, Lisa Bloom attorney at the bloomfirm.com and Chris Mohandie forensic psychologist and stalking expert. A.J., let me start with you. What do we know about this Jason Peyton?
A.J. HAMMER, HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Apparently not a stable guy at all. He has a history of violence and a history of mental illness. Apparently he stabbed himself in the past. He hit his mother with a golf club back in 2008. He was busted for harassing a neighbor in Pennsylvania. That`s apparently where he`s from.
BEHAR: And he drove from Pennsylvania to Los Angeles?
HAMMER: and that`s what he did and for that crime back in 2008, he was found not guilty by reason of insanity and put in the hospital and then put on antipsychotic drugs. Apparently he`s now off those drugs.
BEHAR: It`s always the situation where they don`t take the drugs when somebody goes berserk like that.
HAMMER: Yes it can totally throw a switch.
BEHAR: And it`s a very hard to enforce something like that. How did the cops find him?
HAMMER: Well apparently he left a note that his dad found it was back on June 25th, a note saying that he was off to California. I guess his dad knowing about his interest in Jenifer Aniston surmised he`s going out, looking for Jennifer Aniston. And apparently his mom signaled to the cops, be on the lookout for her son.
BEHAR: How old is he?
HAMMER: I don`t know - you know I don`t know his age. I`m not sure.
BEHAR: Uh huh, and what else -- did the cops find anything else?
HAMMER: Well in addition, you mentioned he was lying in wait -
BEHAR: With the duct tape.
HAMMER: With duct tape and all that. Apparently, carved on the side of his car in the paint of his car, notes like, I love you, Jennifer Aniston. They found notes inside the car with baby names that --
BEHAR: Baby names?
HAMMER: For the baby he was apparently hoping to have with Jennifer Aniston.
BEHAR: Wow. WHERE is he now, this guy?
HAMMER: Well now he`s on a mandatory psychiatric hold. Once he`s released, he`s got to stay 100 yards away. Not just from Jenifer Anniston but everything and anyone having to do with Jennifer Aniston. So if she likes Mocha Lattes I guess he has to stay away from Mocha Lattes. I`m not sure but on August 9th, they`re going to have a hearing. And I have a feeling it`s going to go down the same road as it did in 2008 for this guy.
BEHAR: OK all right, let me bring in my panel. Lisa, let me ask you. You know respecting boundaries is not something that stalkers do.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY, THEBLOOMFIRM.COM: Right.
BEHAR: And these restraining orders, I mean do they really do any good? If somebody is driving cross country, you know, with duct tape and sharp objects headed for Jennifer Aniston, what good is a restraining order really?
BLOOM: Well you make an important point, Joy, that restraining orders are clearly not enough standing alone to protect you. Anybody on television, I`m sure it has happened to you, it`s happened to me. Stalkers come out of the woodwork. So you have to protect yourselves. I believe in big barking dogs and living in a gated area to keep people out. Somebody like Jenifer Aniston, obviously, has private security. But restraining orders are important for one reason. Law enforcement loves it when people have a restraining order. Why? Because if somebody violates the order, that person goes immediately, directly to jail. They don`t pass go, they don`t collect $200. They don`t have to have a trial or a hearing. If they violate a restraining order by sending an email, making a phone call, show up, God forbid, where somebody is if physically present, law enforcement can immediately grab that person and send them right to jail.
BEHAR: So if you get a restraining order, you do have a little bit of power with the police to this guy off your back, right?
BLOOM: Exactly that`s why law enforcement likes it.
BEHAR: OK, Chris, a lot of stalkers are mentally ill like this guy and they think they have actual relationships with these celebrities. Now could a restraining order actually enrage a stalker? Once he knows you`ve got it, he might really want to kill you then.
KRIS MOHANDIE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well that`s part of it. But about 60 percent of the time the restraining order does work. But with a guy like this, they may see that as the connection between them and the victim. That now we have this bond that is in paper. Our names appear together. There can be that. I want to underscore what`s already been said. It`s an important tool for law enforcement because it`s on the record that he`s been noticed, that this is unacceptable.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOHANDIE: And law enforcement loves it. It`s a great tool. But it is just a piece of paper. And thus, all the other security precautions that should be in place absolutely have to be there. Because some of these folks, will, in fact, as you say, escalate in response to this.
BEHAR: Right.
MOHANDIE: Particularly guys that are delusional, as this guy clearly is.
BEHAR: Right.
HAMMER: You know when you hear the details, Joy, of what this guy allegedly had with him, the sharp objects, the duct tape, and that he was apparently waiting in an area frequented by Jennifer Aniston, that`s really scary. And you think, OK, so she has her own security.
BEHAR: Yes.
HAMMER: But still, the fact that this is going on - and of course, it`s going to go on. Because anybody in the public eye, as Lisa said, we`ve all had to deal with it on some level. It`s just positively frightening.
BEHAR: Yes well my stalkers are all in menopause.
HAMMER: What the hell -
BEHAR: Just saying.
BLOOM: Are you talking about me out there, Joy?
BEHAR: But, you know --
HAMMER: You said it, Lisa.
BEHAR: I don`t mean to make light of it. It`s really a serious topic. Anyway, Sandra Bullock --
MOHANDIE: Yes, it is.
BEHAR: It`s a serious topic I know, Chris. Go ahead.
MOHANDIE: Well this is -- he`s actually a classic celebrity stalker, and of the variety we`re most concerned about. Most celebrity stalkers we`ve studied - and we`ve looked at hundreds of them, will do it from afar. They`ll send e-mails and gifts and they`ll never travel. He traveled. He was -- despite being mentally ill, he was capable of getting out here. And he has potentially an abduction kit with him. Duct tape and a sharp object -
BEHAR: Right.
MOHANDIE: Which we`ve seen, for example, in the Spielberg case and in other cases in the past. So he would be in that rare group of folks we are concerned about potentially being a near miss or an actual terrible event occurring. He`s the guy that --
BLOOM: And the good news it -
MOHANDIE: You have to be at the top.
BLOOM: That -
BEHAR: Go ahead.
BLOOM: He hasn`t actually harmed her. And we`ve come -
MOHANDIE: Right.
BLOOM: A long way you in protecting stalking victims. You know a decade or two ago, the police would say, he didn`t harm her. He can drive across the country. He can have items in his car, this isn`t a crime. Well now it is a crime. Now he can be locked up for clearly what is an illegal act, which is stalking her and plotting to do her harm. And we all see this for what it is now. So we`ve really progress as a culture, I think, in that way.
MOHANDIE: That`s right.
BEHAR: Right, right but Sandra Bullock recently had to renew a restraining order. Why do you have to renew it? Why isn`t it permanent?
BLOOM: Well -
MOHANDIE: Well -
BLOOM: Well that`s because they expire Joy.
MOHANDIE: Yes, they expire.
BLOOM: They generally last about a year or two and then they expire, I`m sorry, go ahead.
BEHAR: So you have to keep renewing it if the guy keeps coming after you? All right, I guess.
MOHANDIE: Yes, periodically. Because if you let them lapse, some of these guys will take that as meaning, hey it`s OK now.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOHANDIE: Because they`re not thinking about things the same way you and I are. Particularly the ones that are pursuing public figures how are seriously mentally ill.
BEHAR: There is something about the -
MOHANDIE: They see things through a different lens.
BEHAR: There`s something about renewing it that bothers me though. Because you know, you - so the restraining order is in place. The guy stops awhile because the police are on him.
MOHANDIE: Yes.
BEHAR: You forget about it. He disappears. Now he knows a year later, he can come back into it.
HAMMER: Hopefully and certainly at the level of Sandra Bullock and Jennifer Aniston, you have people paying attention to this. And I thought it was particularly interesting. And Lisa, you can tell me if this is a pretty common thing. I`ve never heard it before, where it`s not only stay away from Jen Aniston, but stay away from anything and anyone associated with her. So that brings to mind agents, managers, lawyers - anybody at all.
BEHAR: How would he know who those people are though? You mentioned --
BLOOM: Yes, I think that`s probably impermissibly broad. And A.J. you raise a good point, I mean you can`t stay away from mocha lattes if that`s her cup of tea, so to speak. But I think the purpose of it is we don`t want loopholes. We don`t want him to say well, I didn`t know she was going to be there. I was just hanging out where her agent is where she happens to go. So they`re trying to tighten the noose around this guy`s neck.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s smart.
BLOOM: I think that probably is why the attorney challenged that -
BEHAR: Yes, that`s smart.
MOHANDIE: Yes these guys are frequently very resourceful and manipulative despite being very impaired mentally. And they will target third parties and locations they know they can have a chance encounter.
BEHAR: It`s like I may be crazy, but I`m not stupid. We`ve heard that.
MOHANDIE: Exactly, exactly.
BEHAR: You know Chris, you mentioned the Steven Spielberg case -
MOHANDIE: Right.
BEHAR: Where his stalker showed up with his house with the intention to rape Steven Spielberg.
MOHANDIE: Right, that`s right. He had duct tape, box cutters and a plan that he wanted him to force him to have sexual relations.
BEHAR: Oh my god.
MOHANDIE: He had a kit similar to this guy`s kit. What we`re seeing is family members who have a sick family member will take responsibility to notify the police. And I think they should be commended for doing that. I think that`s a really nice move.
BEHAR: How do you know when the stalker is just an - is an obsessed fan or someone who wants to do you harm? I mean you know celebrities have fans. They threw confetti at Lindsay Lohan when she walked into the jail yesterday. You know these people are -- they need to get a life also, you know? Is it just a question of get a life, or I`m out to hurt you?
MOHANDIE: Well I think in this case, and cases like it, it`s usually not very subtle. It`s all they talk about. It`s all they think about. And they have these beliefs that are just not grounded in reality. I have a relationship with Jennifer or whomever it might be. I`m actually going to have children with this person and it`s clearly not within the realm of reality. So that would be beyond what we see with the normal --
BLOOM: Yes people are under the delusion that if they see people on TV are their friends, and they`re having a relationship with them. I had a stalker like that who felt that I was his girlfriend. And then one day he saw me and he thought I was angry at him and the next day he thought we had made up. I mean that`s the kind of delusion that people get because they feel a connection with people that they see on television. It`s a very scary thing. I can tell you representing Michael Lohan, when we went to the court room the other day. There were people who came out of the woodwork, who were threatening his life, who were yelling all kinds of ugly, nasty things, which was why he had to have a bodyguard when he goes to court. And he`s not, of course, at the level of Jennifer Aniston.
BEHAR: No but a lot of celebrities have been stalked. It`s very commonplace.
MOHANDIE: It is a very common place.
BEHAR: It`s common place isn`t it?
MOHANDIE: Particularly among females who are viewed as attractive, approachable, maybe a little vulnerable and that have a lot of exposure. It`s very common. We`ve actually studied --
BEHAR: Except that you just mentioned Steven Spielberg. You know it could happen -- what was the motivation there, just to rape the guy? I mean what`s that about?
MOHANDIE: That`s right. Well, the offender in that case was gay, and thus he targets, you know, somebody that he believes that he could, you know, pursue in that realm for a variety of different reasons.
BEHAR: Oh my god. Thanks, everybody, very much, for this conversation.
BLOOM: Thanks Joy.
BEHAR: Up next, the Shirley Sherrod controversy. Did the administration fall for sloppy Right wing reporting and fire an innocent woman? We`ll discuss it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: A department of agriculture official, Shirley Sherrod was forced out of her job, Monday, after a DCTV video clip posted on a conservative blog made her appear to be racist. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIRLEY SHERROD, STATE DIRECTOR, USDA RURAL DEVELOPMENT: I was struggling with the fact that so many black people have lost their farm land. And here I was faced with having to help a white person save their land. So I didn`t give him the full force of what I could do. I did enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: But there are problems. One, her story took place almost 25 years ago. And two, the clip was taken out of context. She went on to say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERROD: Working with him made me see that it`s really about those who have versus those who don`t, you know. And they could be Black. They could be White. They could be Hispanic. And it made me realize then that I needed to work to help poor people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well for some reason, nobody bothered to get the context of her statement and now the woman is out of a job. But that might not be the case for long. With me now is Keli Goff, political analyst and contributor to the loop21.com. S.E. Cup conservative blogger and author of "Loosing Our Religion: The Liberal Meet Attack On Christianity." Why didn`t anybody - S.E. why didn`t anybody bother to listen to the statement in its entirety?
S.E. CUPP, CONSERVATIVE BLOGGER: Unbelievable. I mean the NAACP had the entire tape and condemned her before they bothered to listen to it. I don`t know if this is we live in too fast a world and so we don`t bother to double check or if the media doesn`t know how to do its job anymore. But it seems like the White House and department of agriculture doesn`t either.
BEHAR: And neither do the media neither -- yes go ahead Keli.
KELI GOFF, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well Joy, you must have had ESP because I actually fell on this very site with you where you said that you lamented the demise of old media for reasons just like this. which is that who is going to be there to do the home work and do the checking. And you know it`s a black mark on the eye of new media which I`m a participant in.
BEHAR: Yes.
GOFF: I have to say though when I heard that the NAACP and Glenn Beck were on agreement on something, which is at this moment -
BEHAR: You got worried -
GOFF: I thought I might need my ice skates to go ice skating in hell. You know because it`s kind of sort of like being in an alternate universe Seinfeld`s bizarro world perhaps.
BEHAR: Well it was just a screw up - but I mean who is most at fault, the guy that first posted, it, this guy, Andrew Breitbart, who is a Right wing blogger, news organizations for running it, or the department of agriculture for firing her?
GOFF: Well there`s a lot blame to go around. But at the end of the day, the buck has to stop with the administration, right? Because before you fire someone or demand someone`s resignation, well all know is a version of being fired, you`ve got to do your due diligence.
BEHAR: Right.
GOFF: You shouldn`t just be relying - I mean, look, bloggers make mistakes, people in news media make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes. But if you`re going to fire someone, the buck has to stop with you.
BEHAR: But why did they fire her? Are they afraid of the Right wing machine? And the White House?
GOFF: No, Joy, really, no of course --
BEHAR: Why are they so afraid it?
GOFF: Well because the Right wing media has been very good at doing the Liberal media by it`s bogeyman. And so many people in the administration are so terrified at getting labeled with that that they immediately, sort of, sort of, put their hands off and wave the white flag in moments like this. And I actually think that this is probably going to be the best thing to come out of this situation. Hopefully there is going to be a backlash to that. I think this could actually be a long-term good thing.
BEHAR: What do you say to that S.E.?
CUPP: Well I think the media is to blame, culpable, absolutely. But on both sides, I mean the Left wing media, the liberal media also cries racism where it doesn`t exist. And the Right wing media inflates these issues, absolutely. But when you have a Jesse "Himey Town" Jackson out there, you know, and the LeBron James, you know, dismissal, then it`s sort of like the boy who cried wolf. And we`re used to talking about racism now where it doesn`t exist everyone is very sensitive to it. Who`s to say that the administration wasn`t more afraid of the NAACP than it was of FOX news?
GOFF: But the bigger issue here is that you have the Jesse Jackson on one side and you have the president on the other. And they keep -- there`s this ongoing campaign to try to turn the president and his administration into an anti-white agenda, which is so laughable to me, because the man is just as much White as he is black, which everyone seems to forget. When people like Glen Beck are running around and calling him anti-white and racist.
BEHAR: Well isn`t that because he`s considered a liberal and so they think that he`s pro-black and anti-white? Isn`t that --
(CROSSTALK)
GOFF: S.E. and the reason he refers to himself as black on his census report as black, is someone who looks like him you thought mugged you, you would not describe him as a guy who is possibly half white.
CUPP: What?
GOFF: You would say, there is a black man of six foot whatever -
CUPP: Why are we going to violence all of a sudden?
GOFF: Because -- he calls himself black. He calls himself a black president.
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: You can`t have it both ways Keli.
GOFF: How am I trying to have it both ways. I`m saying the man is half white and half black. The reason why I`m coming out to say he`s black because that is what you would call him.
CUPP: No, that`s what you are calling him.
GOFF: That`s what I said.
CUPP: -- calling him.
GOFF: So how would you describe him then if you see him?
CUPP: He`s black. He`s black.
GOFF: Oh OK so it`s not him arbitrarily picking his racial identification.
CUPP: I don`t think he arbitrarily -
GOFF: Identify him -- this is how he identifies.
CUPP: How he identifies -
GOFF: Because you just said that`s how you would describe him.
CUPP: Because it`s like the chicken or the egg.
GOFF: -- black person, you sound ridiculous.
CUPP: But it`s not that he looks like a black person. He is a black person. It`s not that he looks like a black person.
BEHAR: Girls, girls.
GOFF: So you don`t think he does -
CUPP: It`s that he is a black person.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: S.E. don`t you see that when you`re growing up as a child, even if you`re mixed race, if you are dark skinned, they will refer to you as a black child?
CUPP: Sure.
BEHAR: So that`s how he was raced.
CUPP: OK.
BEHAR: Even though his mother was as white as you are. He was still referred to as a black child -
CUPP: Right.
BEHAR: So that`s why.
GOFF: And the right says he`s uber black, he`s so pro black.
CUPP: I have never heard anyone on the Right say he`s super black. Who talks like that but you guys?
GOFF: Well Glenn Beck -
CUPP: This is a bogeyman that you guys are talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: All right. I have to interrupt this for a second. We`ll have more fighting in the next segment. Just stay right where you are.
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: Hello, hello. Stay with us, friends. We are seeking justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my volatile panel.
(LAUGHTER)
While the senate is ready to pass a bill which extends unemployment benefits to millions of Americans. Conservative economist Ben Stein is taking heat for what he said about the unemployed. This is what he said, "the people who have been laid off and cannot find work are generally people with poor work habits and poor personalities." OK, thank you, Ben. I`ve been on unemployment insurance. And I don`t believe that I had bad work habits and bad personalities. In fact, I have a fabulous personality, as we all know.
CUPP: Obviously, obviously.
BEHAR: So do you agree with that statement at all?
CUPP: No, I`ve been laid off, it sucks. Anyone who has been laid off knows it`s suck. I think the point he was trying to make, and you know, he has a very dry sense of humor. Is that sometimes you can`t blame the economy when you`re out of work. Sometimes you`re just an unappealing employee and sometimes you get fired, especially when times are tight. But people tried to link this to some kind of support for the end of employment benefits, which he does not agree with. He wants to extend unemployment benefits.
BEHAR: Well that why -- was there bad timing on that topic because it happens to be --
CUPP: Very Ben Steinian, American spectator kind of thing.
BEHAR: Well he`s coming on here next week, I understand.
CUPP: He`ll explain.
BEHAR: So I`m going to get to see him there and discuss it with him. But what do you think about it?
GOFF: After reading this, I thought he might want to stick to acting. Because he made much more sense in "Ferris Bueller," when he was saying, Beuller, Beuller --
CUPP: He`s a very, very smart economist.
GOFF: He just didn`t sound so smart in this particular piece. And we all have our moments. But I was going to say that you know the funny thing about - you remember the saying, in "It`s A Wonderful Life" where the little girl said, every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings.
BEHAR: Yes.
GOFF: I was thinking to myself, every time a conservative opens their mouth and tries to blame the unemployed for their fight, by making themselves lazy, or unlikable, or unmotivated, it`s like a bell rings in a glimmer of hope shows up in the eye of Democrat who has a mid-term election. Because the more they talk, I think the sillier they sound.
BEHAR: She`s got a point.
CUPP: No, she doesn`t. The Democrats should be worried about joblessness -
GOFF: Of course.
CUPP: Not the way Republicans sound when they talk about joblessness as mid-terms come up. They have bigger fish to fry than Ben Stein.
BEHAR: So why don`t the Republicans come up with an idea about joblessness? I`ve heard nothing from the Right. Except reduce the deficit and --
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: The only idea that Obama has come up with is to keep people out of work longer. That is the only big idea this administration has put forward. Republicans want to extend unemployment benefits, but we want to pay for it. This money isn`t coming from, you know, trees.
GOFF: First of all Joy -
BEHAR: Why is it, that as he said, he had a statement, he said the same people who didn`t have -- this is Obama -- the same people who didn`t have problems spending hundreds of billions of dollars on tax breaks for wealthiest Americans are now saying we shouldn`t offer relief to middle class Americans.
CUPP: That`s a really great way to frame it. I mean that is good message in it. It`s just not true.
BEHAR: Why is it not true? When the tax breaks were coming down for the rich during the Reagan administration -
CUPP: Right.
BEHAR: And Bush administration, I did not hear one word from the Right about how that was going to affect the economy. Now they`re yelling that they`re giving money away to unemployed people.
CUPP: You don`t penalize a specific economic group, especially one that spends a lot of money, and has the ability to reenergize the economy by taxing them.
BEHAR: Well don`t you think -- but doesn`t unemployment insurance put money back into the system also? These hedge funders are not going to be spending their money. They`re investing all their money.
CUPP: But we don`t know Joy, a lot of people that we have talked to - you know, people in the media talked to, who have been on unemployment said, I haven`t started looking for a job and I`m not going to, as long as I`m on unemployment.
BEHAR: That doesn`t go on forever S.E.. I`ve been there, I have to go, I`m afraid this is over. Thank you very much, ladies, for joining me. And thank you all for watching. Goodnight, everybody.
END
