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Joy Behar Page
Mel vs. Oksana; Kathy Out Loud
Aired July 22, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, while Lindsay Lohan sits in jail, her father`s accused of domestic abuse and her mother`s demanding $50,000 for an interview; so much for the idea that being cut off from your family is the worst part of being in prison.
Also Kathy Griffin is in trouble for calling Senator Scott Brown`s daughters prostitutes. Let`s face it, Kathy Griffin`s pissed off so many people -- so many people, even Marcel Marceau won`t talk to her.
And new reports say that after feuding with his ex-girlfriend Mel Gibson sent her a text message. You know, I much prefer the audio tapes. You can`t hear him panting on a Blackberry.
All that and more starts now.
You`ve heard the tapes. Now read the text messages. Here to talk about the latest in l`affair Gibson-Grigorieva are Chris Jacobs, correspondent for "The Insider"; forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg and Stacy Snyder, criminal attorney and former divorce attorney.
Chris, there are reports authorities are looking into whether Oksana tried to extort money from Mel. What do you know about this?
CHRIS JACOBS, "THE INSIDER": Well, that`s exactly right, Joy. The Sheriff`s Department in Malibu are looking into allegations of extortion against Oksana. And basically in my opinion, it`s going to be hard to prove. You know, extortion is a very convoluted law in California. I think the first thing they`re going to have to prove is that she`s the one that released the tapes. And that`s been denied by her camp since the very beginning.
BEHAR: Ok. But does Mel have evidence at all of this kind of --
JACOBS: He does --
BEHAR: Yes?
JACOBS: Purportedly there`s a text message that Oksana sent to Mel that says the reason that she recorded the conversations was because he, quote, backed out of their agreement. Apparently there was a $15 million settlement in place. Mel allegedly backed out of that agreement. And Oksana`s response was to record these tirades.
Now, in California in order for a tape to be admissible in a court of law, both parties would have had to consent to the recording of the conversation. However, there is an exemption if the recording was made to gather evidence of a crime, then it is admissible.
Now, Mel`s camp is going to say that the impetus to record the call was not to gather evidence. It was to extort Mel and, therefore, the tapes should not be admissible.
BEHAR: I don`t really understand it, to tell you the truth. I don`t really get it.
JACOBS: As I said it`s convoluted, Joy.
BEHAR: It`s very convoluted. I mean, if this text is real, which I`m going to read some of it, is this Mel admitting he hit Oksana. That`s the text that we`ve been reading today, which I will read later.
JACOBS: Well, there`s certainly subtext that Mel is making an admission to hitting Oksana. He says that he was not safe for her the previous night. What that means is something that can be read into. Also, if you go back and listen to the audio tapes, there are two particular sections that are very damning to Mel. He says, A -- she deserved it when they`re talking about him hitting her. And, b -- that, quote, "No one is going to believe you if you tell them I hit you while holding our baby."
If those tapes are admitted into a criminal court case, then that`s pretty much equivalent to a smoking gun.
BEHAR: Let me read part of the -- one of the text messages, ok? He says, he writes to her, Oksana, I wasn`t safe for you last night. He sounds like he`s Russian. I wasn`t safe. I spent two hours -- I mean, really -- I spent two hours with a therapist today. Nice work. And have regained some perspective. What I`m telling you know if -- this is another thing I don`t understand the English of. What I`m telling you know if I am safe and would like to come by and make amends to you, Sascha and Lucia. I won`t stay. Just let you say your piece and I`ll say mine. Let me know if it`s all right.
You know it`s funny. She`s Russian but he sounds it -- right, go ahead.
JACOBS: I assume he meant now instead of no. It makes a little more sense if you substitute a now.
BEHAR: What I`m telling you -- but still --
JACOBS: Maybe he`s got an iPhone.
BEHAR: What I`m telling you now if I am safe and would I like to come by. It still sounds even foreign or baby talk.
JACOBS: Well, nothing about this case makes any sense, Joy. You must know that by now. It`s a whole side order of crazy, anything you talk about this case you`re coming from a point of complete craziness.
BEHAR: All right. Let me talk to Paul. Is it difficult to prove that this is from Mel? Let`s go there. This is a forensic scientist. Go ahead.
PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: There is software on the market on the Internet that you can buy that will make it appear as though a text message or even phone call or a message is coming from any particular telephone.
BEHAR: A-ha.
GINSBERG: It masks -- but law enforcement should be able to gain access to the telephone records of the telephone company and actually hunt it down accurately.
BEHAR: So they will be able to -- at the end of the day, we`re going to know whether that was Mel Gibson speaking on the phone that she taped and whether these are texts from him, right?
GINSBERG: The originals should bear that information, sure.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, you know, that`s interesting. What do you think about -- Stacy, what do you think about the extortion allegation?
STACY SCHNEIDER, CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: I think it`s a last minute attempt by Mel Gibson`s lawyers to turn the heat off of him because he looks like such a maniac and the public is so against him now, that they`re the ones who went to the district attorney`s office or the L.A. investigator`s office and asked them to investigate this.
I think it`s a smoke screen. I don`t think they have anything. I think the one text message that Chris alluded to where she said the reason I`m exposed -- I can expose these tapes is because you backed out of the deal does not fulfill the legal definition of extortion. Extortion is blackmail, Joy.
BEHAR: Can extortion be done between family members?
SCHNEIDER: Absolutely. It can be done between anybody. Money doesn`t have to exchange hands. All you need to do is threaten to ruin someone`s reputation publicly and demand money for that. If that threat can compel someone to pay you off, that`s extortion, plain and simple.
BEHAR: Right.
SCHNEIDER: I don`t think they have it. And why did they wait six tapes later to go forward now and raise this allegation with those people?
BEHAR: I don`t know. Chris, do you have an answer to that? Why did they wait so long, do you know?
JACOBS: The fact that they waited so long I think is evidence against Oksana that maybe she did have an ulterior motive because anybody who is a victim of violence wants to go to the authorities as quickly as they can. So I think the fact that they waited for so long probably works against Oksana.
SCHNEIDER: You know what, Chris, it doesn`t. Because the minute they heard the first tape come out, that should have been enough for them to say -- Mel`s lawyers I`m talking about. Say, well, he`s being extorted by her. She demanded money and now she released the first tape.
So we went through one tape, two, three, four, five, six; now all of a sudden when things look so bad for Mel they decide to ask the investigators to look into this issue. You know, you have to realize the L.A. detectives do not have any evidence or didn`t have anything to go on except for the claims of the lawyers. It`s not like they went out and said, oh, we see extortion in all this mess that`s all over TV. They were prompted.
BEHAR: Paul?
GINSBERG: Also we don`t know -- number one, I don`t think that there are any tapes. I think it`s all done on digital recording. So that`s number one.
Number two, we don`t know whether there was one conversation, six conversations or ten conversations. We don`t know the order. We don`t know --
BEHAR: Not yet.
GINSBERG: That`s right.
BEHAR: We don`t know that yet.
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: She might have witnesses who sat there with her while she recorded them. That would be smart.
(CROSS TALKING)
GINSBERG: The original recording -- also, I think what puts a lot of doubt into this case is the quality, the high quality of her voice on the recordings.
BEHAR: Why?
GINSBERG: Because she apparently went to audio experts in the sound recording field, you know, her -- singing studio field instead of a forensic audio person. Had she made a recording on a small recorder, a digital recorder like this along with little $30 Radio Shack connector to the telephone line, they both would have sounded the same.
BEHAR: She didn`t know to do that. She`s not a professional.
SCHNEIDER: She`s in Hollywood. They go for the big time equipment here. They don`t use these little cheap gadgets.
BEHAR: Let me have you listen to one of the recordings, this particular one from RadarOnline. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You almost killed us. Did you forget?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last (EXPLETIVE DELETED) has been a gravy train for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were hitting a woman with a child in her hands. You. What kind of man is that, hitting a woman when she`s holding a child in her hands? Breaking her teeth twice in the face. What kind of man is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you`re all angry now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to get to -- you know what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deserved it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to answer, one day, boy, you`re going to answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, what are you threatening?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing, nothing. I`m not the one to threaten.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll put you in a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rose garden, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: This is the rose garden tape, we call this. Paul, do you think that this tape is edited?
GINSBERG: From what I`ve heard, I don`t see any -- anything leaping out to tell me --
BEHAR: He says that, then she says that.
GINSBERG: That`s right. In the context they`re reacting to each other. She sounds a lot better than he does because he`s coming through a speaker phone; through a one inch speaker and being recorded over her microphone whereas she`s talking into either a studio microphone or a high- quality digital recorder.
BEHAR: Right. Right. Now, you know, just to the point of the rose garden and the teeth and the whole bit, he also texted her, the following. She said -- she texts, "I have two broken front teeth and a concussion. I cannot see you today. I`m hurting. You can apologize to Sascha" her son "some other time". He wanted to go over there and apologize to the kid because he called the kid a name also.
Ok, now Mel -- Mel Gibson allegedly says, "Did you get them fixed?" The teeth, I presume. And then he says, "When can I see you? I need to see you this evening. And then I promise I`ll leave you alone for as long as you want." And he also say, "If only for ten minutes".
Now, he`s sort of admitting that he hit her. Did you get them fixed yet? I mean --
SCHNEIDER: Well, yes and no, Joy --
BEHAR: Yes.
SCHNEIDER: -- because he`s not -- he`s admitting that the circumstance happened that her teeth were damaged. He`s not directly admitting that he did it. I think that shows up in all the audio tapes on the phone calls where he`s saying --
BEHAR: More than this?
SCHNEIDER: Yes, this is sort of -- this would be used in court as circumstantial evidence that her teeth -- he knew the teeth were damaged and it happened in the timeframe that we`re talking about rather than her teeth were damaged five years ago.
BEHAR: Yes, I see.
SCHNEIDER: But I don`t think this is directly damaging. It`s more circumstantial.
BEHAR: But you know, the begging -- "I want to see you, please I`ll be good, please." It`s just a typical abuser type of conversation. Right? They hit you first, then they love you. I`ll be good, I swear. I`ll send flowers.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, forget the restraining order, I`m a good guy.
BEHAR: Yes, exactly and then you`ll never know what`s going to happen.
JACOBS: And Joy, remember, the absence of a denial is not an admission.
BEHAR: Ok. I`ll remember that. Thank you guys very much.
Ok, Kathy Griffin joins me next for some hot topics and to discuss her controversial joke about Senator Scott Brown`s daughters.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: With me now is someone other than Mel Gibson who knows a thing or two about crazy rants and uncontrollable swearing. The controversial comedienne and star of Bravo`s "My Life on the D-List," the very funny, Kathy Griffin.
KATHY GRIFFIN, COMEDIENNE: Double Emmy Award winning and also Emmy nominated for this year.
BEHAR: And extremely modest.
GRIFFIN: Screw you, "Myth Busters,". Here I`ll bust your myth. I have no follow-up. Sorry --
BEHAR: Ok.
GRIFFIN: -- I just want to win.
BEHAR: Well, aren`t you loving Mel Gibson`s rants? Hilarious.
GRIFFIN: It`s heaven. You know Joan Rivers and I sent him a co- muffin basket. We chipped in for a muffin basket because as a woman, as an American, it`s horrible. As a comedian, it`s a gift from baby Jesus.
BEHAR: That`s true.
GRIFFIN: It`s fantastic.
BEHAR: But you know he has an obsession with oral sex. Now you know I think --
GRIFFIN: That`s fine. That`s not the bad part.
BEHAR: Why? I think it is --
GRIFFIN: It`s the punching her teeth out that I have an issue with.
BEHAR: Yes of course.
GRIFFIN: The oral sex I`m all for it.
BEHAR: Yes but --
GRIFFIN: But when it comes with the punched-out teeth allegedly --
BEHAR: Why are you all for it when he`s demanding it? You don`t want to be --
GRIFFIN: I enjoy hearing the rants because I like to role play in my head. And I hear them and like I sit at home in my house alone --
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: -- yelling back at the tape of him.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: But that`s fun.
BEHAR: But what kind of man is that? What kind of man is that?
GRIFFIN: Screw you. Who do you think you are?
BEHAR: I played her part.
GRIFFIN: I play both parts.
BEHAR: Oh no I only like her part.
GRIFFIN: Ok.
BEHAR: What kind of man is that --
GRIFFIN: What kind of man --
BEHAR: -- that hits a woman with a child -- what kind of man is that?
GRIFFIN: But I like to play his part because he does the -- like he didn`t know she had the fake boobs.
BEHAR: I know.
GRIFFIN: Because that was shock to him.
BEHAR: Exactly.
GRIFFIN: I was in my church that`s in my yard and I couldn`t believe -- I mean, I love, I love the panting and the fact that he has a church in his yard.
BEHAR: I know. It`s so great.
GRIFFIN: It`s beyond Hollywood. Because in Hollywood you have a pool, maybe a naughty pool boy, having the church on the property, he thinks he`s the Pope.
BEHAR: He does.
GRIFFIN: Come on.
BEHAR: Well, he doesn`t want to be Pope right now. Hello.
GRIFFIN: Not today. But he might need the Pope mobile.
BEHAR: Now you got in some trouble for your own. On your own over --
GRIFFIN: I love it, yes.
BEHAR: -- over something you said on a recent episode of "My Life on the D-List."
GRIFFIN: Do we have a clip?
BEHAR: Let`s take a look, of course, we have a clip.
GRIFFIN: The Emmy nominated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Scott Brown, who is a Senator from Massachusetts --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRIFFIN: -- and has two daughters that are prostitutes.
And now a brief message from Bravo`s legal team. Scott brown`s daughters are not prostitutes. We now return you to our regularly scheduled negativity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok now, whose -- whose idea was it, was the disclaimer?
GRIFFIN: Gee, I wonder. Bravo legal?
BEHAR: But that was you -- wasn`t that your voice?
GRIFFIN: Well, I love doing the voice-over. The voice-over is hysterical in my opinion and Emmy worthy.
Look, here is the deal. The genesis of the joke, you won`t like this -- does anybody remember that the night he was elected he made a joke, he was clearly making a joke saying by the way, my daughters are available. And then the Washington press beat up on him saying he was pimping out his daughters.
So on "My Life on the D-List" we actually had some real -- you know Washington insider showing me like 15 pictures of people on the Hill et cetera. And my joke was I didn`t know who they were.
So they show me a picture of Sonia Sotomayor and I say, oh the maid from "Will & Grace" there is the joke. Then they show me Scott Brown and I go, his daughters are prostitutes -- meaning like word association.
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: So people got the their panties in the bucket --
BEHAR: And including Barney Frank.
GRIFFIN: Barney Frank got his panties in a bunch --
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRIFFIN: -- which takes a lot. Because apparently when he and the boyfriend go to P-town, there`s a lot of panties in a bunch. And so I met with Barney Frank, who, of course I admired, an openly gay Congressman. I`m thinking oh this is fantastic. And he sat down with me for "My Life on the D-List" and spent half the interview telling me he`d never seen it, he didn`t want to do it. His boyfriend likes me.
That`s why, I`m like, yes, I`ve heard this all many times before. But yes, whenever a statement is issued against me, I`m in heaven. I feel my next special is half written for me.
And then I get to read statements allowed in my live shows which you can go to KathyGriffin.net and see the many, many cities I`ve picked up for my current tour.
BEHAR: Ok.
GRIFFIN: What?
BEHAR: So you`re really feeling bad about it all? Ok, I mean, when Barney Frank turns on you, one of your gays, you have to start to wonder.
GRIFFIN: Hey, the gays, look, there is -- that`s -- there is a reason that that flag has colors. There`s many levels and colors. There`s not just -- I mean, I make the joke about the gays, but there`s many, many kinds of gay people like there are many, many kinds of straight people.
And you know, he`s -- he`s one of my gays. He just doesn`t know it because he doesn`t know you know who I am, as usual.
BEHAR: Ok now you were in Washington to protest "don`t ask, don`t tell" with Lieutenant Dan Choi who was on my show.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, yesterday he was honorably discharged for being gay? What do you make of that?
GRIFFIN: He was -- was he honorably discharged?
BEHAR: Honorably yes.
GRIFFIN: Boy, I don`t know what that means, because to me if he was discharged for being gay, then I don`t know how honorable that is.
Look, I think that the reason that I did the episode about the repeal of "don`t ask, don`t tell" is I think that people that are for the repeal of "don`t ask, don`t tell" truly are going to be on the right side of history. I mean, honestly.
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRIFFIN: I think that this is something that in a very short time we`re going to look back and we`re going to say, really? And you know, I`ve been to Iraq and Afghanistan on camera and off, and I`ve been to Walter Reed, et cetera. And knowing that there are thousands of brave men and women, gay brave men and women who have been discharged --
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: Thousands and thousands currently serving overseas -- currently serving in the war zones, I really was just trying to give them a voice.
BEHAR: All right.
GRIFFIN: That`s the way I protest. I make jokes about it. I say silly things. I gather as many people as possible.
BEHAR: Well, you`re very good to the gay community and they know it.
So we`ll have more with Kathy Griffin in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ready?
GRIFFIN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here comes the speculum. We`re putting in the brush now to get the solids from the cervix.
The brush has entered her vagina.
That`s it. I`m done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t know what a pap smear was because my parents are from Iran. So we don`t learn about things like that. And she`s just inspired and taught me a lot about my own body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with Kathy griffin who just got a pap smear on "My Life on the D-List.
GRIFFIN: Public pap smear, first time ever. And by the way, that`s why when I`m called something like scum, I really don`t care. Because you know what? To hear that woman say I`m from Iran and I didn`t even know what pap smear was until this. I say fine, call me scum all day.
I know it was a little silly to get a public pap smear and my mother isn`t technically speaking to me. But you know what? I thought it was kind of wild and a wild thing to do. And on "My Life on the D-List" we try to do things that have never been done. And in that same episode, my tour manager Tom actually had his balls waxed.
BEHAR: I`m so happy for him.
GRIFFIN: Well, that`s never been done. Don`t act like you guys do that on this show. When was the last time you had your balls waxed?
BEHAR: Only the cameramen get that done. Not the rest of the staff.
GRIFFIN: Fingers crossed guys. Go to a safe place.
BEHAR: Ok. So somebody calls you scum, you have your own way of saying things about people. So people are going to come back at you Kathy.
GRIFFIN: I trash about everybody, yes.
BEHAR: So then they`re going to say trash back to you.
GRIFFIN: Fine, of course. By the way, you`re on a show called "The View". That`s the idea, everybody has a point of view. They`re all allowed to have a point of view.
I do shows, I have walkouts. I have people write letters of protest. I have people clap, I have people stand and everything in between. That`s what I love about it.
BEHAR: I was reading a New York magazine article about Joan Rivers.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: And she says that --
GRIFFIN: I love that documentary about her, by the way a piece of work.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s great. I loved it. It`s brilliant. She was saying something about you in there.
GRIFFIN: What?
BEHAR: She was just saying like that she`s frightened of you because you`re as driven as she is, as obsessed and possessed for success that she is.
GRIFFIN: She came over to my house for dinner four nights ago. And we just sat at the kitchen table and chatted. And that`s something we have in common. We have --
BEHAR: What drives the two of you to that extent?
GRIFFIN: You can call it a blind ambition or you can say -- you know, you said to me on "My Life on the D-List," you know you`re going to die alone and I said alone and miserable when I left. And I said, yes.
But the truth of the matter is, I really do love stand-up and it really is my first love. And so that`s why I do it so much.
Am I ruthlessly driven? I don`t know. I`m doing what I love to do the very, very most. I love doing "My Life on the D-List", I love doing stand up --
BEHAR: But you don`t have to die alone if you would just get back with Levi Johnston and take him away from them.
GRIFFIN: I need a minute. I didn`t know we were going to go there. Take it down, Diane Sawyer. I thought this was going to be a little more light-hearted.
I am a broken woman, joy. I need help. You get over here and hug me because Levi has left me for that woman -- that woman.
I`m in the middle of --
BEHAR: Maybe if you got knocked up, he would have stayed with you.
GRIFFIN: Did you read the "Enquirer"? It said we had multiple sex romps. To be in the "Enquirer" and say that I had multiple --
BEHAR: A dream come true.
GRIFFIN: Oh, it was heaven. Once again, I can`t get to the stage fast enough. It`s fantastic.
BEHAR: They say that they`re staying abstinent until the wedding. Do you buy it, those two?
GRIFFIN: Is this rhetorical? Are you just -- come on.
BEHAR: I`m just asking.
GRIFFIN: You`re just asking. Just asking.
BEHAR: As they say in the hood, I`m just a x-ing.
GRIFFIN: You know what? I`m somebody who`s had multiple sex romps; I hardly go along with that.
BEHAR: All right. As always, a wonderful treat to see, you Miss Kathy.
GRIFFIN: My treat.
BEHAR: Catch her on "My Life on the D-List Tuesdays at 10:00 p.m. on Bravo and get her book or she`ll come to your house and stab you. "The Official Book Club Selection" now in paperback.
Back in a minute
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Lindsay isn`t the only Lohan in legal trouble. Lindsay`s dad, Michael is being accused by his fiancee, Kate Major, of assault and threatening to killer. Sounds like Mel Gibson may have a new Facebook friend. Here with the latest is TMZ assignment manager, Mike Walters. Hey Mike, what`s the latest on this? His fiancee, Kate Major was trying to issue a restraining order, I understand.
MIKE WALTERS, TMZ ASSIGNMENT MANAGER: Yes. Joy, she actually got one. Also, the cops there at Southampton police department have charged him with second degrees harassment. So not only has he been accused of it, he has to be in court in August now based on this charge. You know, Kate is claiming that not only he come into the house and shoved her in a chair, that he kicked her in the face after she was on the ground. Because of these allegations the court has issued a protection order. And like I said, he`s been charged with that second degree harassment. And now he`s going to have to go before a judge just like his daughter did a few days ago, in Southampton New York.
BEHAR: What about photos or some evidence? Is there any?
WALTERS: Yes from what I hear there is video and photos of her injuries including right after it happened in the house. So far those haven`t surfaced yet. But if you know this business, like me and you do, we`ll probably see those sooner or later.
BEHAR: I know where I`m going to see them also, on TMZ or radar, one of the two.
WALTERS: Yes.
BEHAR: Now let me just read you this statement from Lisa Bloom, who is Michael`s attorney. She says Michael Lohan 100 percent denied every one of Kate Major`s allegations. He has never threatened to harm her, never assaulted her and never physically abused her in any way. Kate was heavily intoxicated in the verbal argument between Michael and Kate on Monday afternoon. Michael Lohan has been clean and sober for six years. OK?
WALTERS: Well, OK. Two issues with that. Number one, protective orders with Michael Lohan with several other family members including his ex-wife, Dina Lohan, Lindsay`s mom. Also this attack -- alleged attack happened at 2:00 in the daytime. So we`re told Kate Major is saying not only was I not drunk, I wasn`t drinking. Even though I do drink, it was 2:00 p.m., I hadn`t been drinking at all. So his statements are a bunch of lies too, so who knows who is telling the truth here, Joy, but that`s the story from her side.
BEHAR: OK but what about Lindsay? Her mother Dina and the sister Ali visited her in jail. Have they visited her yet?
WALTERS: Yes, I think this is interesting, Joy. Yes, they went yesterday, her, her sister, Dina, Ali and one of the attorneys. You know, a lot of the people in this jail don`t get visitations until the weekend there was an exception made for Lindsay yesterday. We`re told basically she said you know it is a little scary in here, but she`s fine. She actually can take some of her drugs, the prescriptions, one being Ambien. So maybe that helps her get a good night`s sleep last night. I`m not sure. But she can take that stuff. Latest thing, we`re told one of the things she asked for is "Old Man In The Sea" by Hemingway. She wants a novel in jail so she can read. So that`s something they are trying to figure out. A lot of times you can`t take books in the jail, but they`re seeing if they cannot make an exception to let her start reading Hemingway while she sits in the cell by herself.
BEHAR: OK, fine, whatever. Better than reading those Stieg Larson novels, you know, the girl with the hatchet in her hand and the girl with a hatchet in her arm and the girl with a hatchet in her behind. Do you know those books, whatever they are called? They`re Swedish.
WALTERS: And if they were magazines, she`s on the cover of all of them. So they can`t give her magazines, she`s on all of them.
BEHAR: Yes.
WALTERS: She`s got to read something else.
BEHAR: Exactly, well, when do you think she`s going to get out?
WALTERS: You know what, probably anywhere between 14 and 23 days, probably more towards the 14. They only technically do about 25 percent of their sentence. She`s a nonviolent offender. Then they take off good time, work time, which is another way when they are good in jail, they don`t, you know, act out. They can lower it even more. So about two weeks. So we look for her to be out not too long from now, about a week and a half left.
BEHAR: OK keep us posted, Mike. Thanks very much.
WALTERS: We will, see you.
BEHAR: OK, as Lindsay Lohan sits in jail her father and mother, Michael and Dina are out looking for press, paychecks and reality shows of their own. Today`s question, how much of Lindsay`s behavior is a reflection of the parenting she got? Here to discuss this is Danny Bonaduce, actor and radio talk show host on 94.1 WYSP in Philadelphia and psycho therapist Robi Ludwig. Hi guys, I have an allergy. I`m sorry. I sound even more raspy than men.
DANNY BONADUCE, ACTOR AND RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, 94.1 WYSP: I`m all the way in Philadelphia. So it can`t be me.
BEHAR: No, it`s not you. Now Danny, you were a child star, as we all know, "LITTLE OF THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY," and you were young in that show, right.
BONADUCE: I started that show, I did the pilot at nine, first episode at ten.
BEHAR: There you go. So, how screwed up were you?
BONADUCE: Fairly screwed up. That`s a reasonable question. As a matter of fact, all the questions -- I really want to thank you not just for having me on but for finally getting the question right. Everybody asked me all the time, what do you think makes these ex-child-stars take these drugs and things? Is it the fame? No it is not the fame. Even if you look for a meth lab, don`t look on the Hollywood walk of fame. Look in Nebraska and Iowa. Drugs are the scourge of the nation, not Hollywood. It always lies -- the responsibility always lies at the feet of the parents.
BEHAR: I agree with that. So do you blame your parents for screwing you up?
BONADUCE: I helped them, a lot. But I don`t blame them for screwing me up but I don`t blame television for screwing me up. Anyway, I and my brother is one of the largest choir directors in the Catholic church in Los Angeles, my sister is a respected television producer, my brother Anthony works in real estate in New Mexico. They are three very accomplished grownups, so three out of four ain`t bad. So my parents might have been a little bit odd, but I did help them out. And that`s the thing, somebody has to take a little responsibility. Once you`re past about 16, you really don`t have as much influence on your children as you once did. You have got to mold them when they`re very young.
BEHAR: No, no, that`s true.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely true.
BEHAR: But you know between the ages 0 and 5 is when it all happens, right?
LUDWIG: Right, right. Well -
BEHAR: So it`s not when you are a teenager -- that`s too late.
LUDWIG: But you know -
BONADUCE: I agree.
LUDWIG: Speaking to Danny`s point -
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: Like each child in a sense grows up in a different family. Because they all have a different personality and they experience their parents in a different way.
BEHAR: That`s true.
LUDWIG: So while one child may need one set of characteristics from their parents another child needs something else. But clearly when a child acts out in this kind of an extreme way, it`s basically a message, look how messed up I am. You did not do your job as a parent, whether right or wrong. Very often a child will blame their parents. Who else do they have to blame.
BEHAR: Right, that`s true.
BONADUCE: I agree with the doctor, which I almost never do, by the way.
LUDWIG: I know, I know, I`m surprised.
BONADUCE: Me, too. Really, I was all ready to go again. But you`re absolutely right. But the fact is in this particular case, Lindsay Lohan has a great excuse. Michael Lohan, let me put it in technical terms, is a total jerk. OK? This guy -- now, I do not know, I know about the allegations of abuse. I`ve never seen it firsthand. But Michael Lohan actually knocked on my front door and challenged me to a fight. I had never met him. I`ve never seen him.
BEHAR: Why?
BONADUCE: Well, this is kind of interesting. He said, hey, man -- I didn`t know who he was. My girlfriend came out and he said, hey, I`m Michael, Lindsay`s dad. That`s how he introduced himself. And then I realized who I was talking to. And he said, hey, Danny, why don`t we do some of that celebrity boxing that you do? And I said, well, because you`d have to run along and become a celebrity first. See ya.
(LAUGHTER)
BONADUCE: This is a guy, to quote Shakespeare, the fame is an empty purse. Try and spend being famous. With all the cautionary tales that we`re telling people that being famous can do all this harm, most of America would choose famous. They like it. It`s addicting.
BEHAR: Well you know, let me just say, it is really OK to be famous.
BONADUCE: Right. BEHAR: I don`t see the down side to being famous really.
BONADUCE: Nor do I.
BEHAR: The only thing is that people know your age. That`s the only down side.
BONADUCE: I wish -- actually you said your age the other night. I couldn`t believe it.
BEHAR: I did, I said it, yes.
BONADUCE: You look 20 years younger than that.
BEHAR: Thank you, thank you.
BONADUCE: I`m not sucking up because I`m already here.
BEHAR: Thank you, Danny.
LUDWIG: It is true but I think the problem with fame is that it doesn`t necessarily last. So then the question is how do you deal with not being famous? Because being famous is very validating.
BEHAR: No but it depends on what you are famous for.
LUDWIG: That`s true.
BEHAR: You have to have some pilings under the fame.
LUDWIG: Yes.
BEHAR: You can`t just be famous for being famous.
LUDWIG: Right.
BEHAR: You have to have talent.
BONADUCE: Oh I disagree. I disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But I`m talking about -
LUDWIG: But even if you have talent, it doesn`t necessarily mean that you`ll be famous indefinitely.
BEHAR: No, that`s true.
LUDWIG: It`s a tough business.
BEHAR: No but you have to -- there are a lot of people in the business -- I don`t want to mention names -- Kate Gosselin, for example --
LUDWIG: Uh huh, yes.
BEHAR: She`s famous -
BONADUCE: You beat me by this much.
BEHAR: She`s famous for being famous.
LUDWIG: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean she hasn`t done anything. And there is Paris Hilton really has done nothing. These people are famous for no reason other than they were on some kind of show.
LUDWIG: Right and they have an interesting story that we like to watch. Because we don`t know how their lives are going to --
BEHAR: But don`t you think they start to believe they`re good at something?
LUDWIG: Yes, I mean they start to believe they`re celebrity a-list. I mean I`ve been in the green room with some of them. And it`s just astounding how important they act.
BEHAR: Oh, I know.
LUDWIG: I`m like really now? OK.
BEHAR: But Michael LOHAN wanted to be an actor when he was a kid.
LUDWIG: Yes.
BEHAR: Don`t you think that`s a red flag right there that there`s something with him and Lindsay?
LUDWIG: Right. Well --
BONADUCE: I think everything about Michael Lohan is a red flag to me. The man -- as a matter of fact, can I just be honest with you? The entire adult Lohan family just skeeves me out completely.
LUDWIG: They don`t seem mature. They`re not like adults. So what happens when you have kids and you`re not developmentally an adult. And then you put a talented child, you know, in charge.
BEHAR: Who is the bread winner.
LUDWIG: Who is the bread winner -
BEHAR: Were you the bread winner Danny?
BONADUCE: No, my father was a fairly successful television writer. Yet we moved to California for him to write the "DICK VAN DYKE SHOW." And he was the executive -
BEHAR: Oh.
BONADUCE: And so one day at a time and tons of "NORMAN LEER," shows but he doesn`t like actors. He one time said to Bonni Franklin from "ONE DAY AT A TIME," who changed one of his jokes, he said, a Bonaduce joke is like the ten commandments, only funnier but carved in granite. My dad was a nut.
BEHAR: Well he had a point.
LUDWIG: But it might have been better for you than if he thought, you know, actors were the end all, be all.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: Because it sounds like when you have a parent who`s living vicariously through their child`s fame -
BEHAR: That`s a problem
LUDWIG: Then they`re not really looking out for their child. Because then it becomes -- they also send the message, I don`t love you for who you are. I love you for what you do.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: So then the love, the message is it`s conditional.
BEHAR: It`s unconditional is what you mean.
LUDWIG: To the child says what if I don`t accomplish anything? Will you still love me? Am I a person?
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
BONADUCE: Yes but I got to go with, now so we`ve established that Michael Lohan is just out of line.
LUDWIG: Do you like Michael Lohan?
BEHAR: Yes, I`m feeling the love. It`s overwhelming. Hurry up. I got to go. Go ahead Danny.
BONADUCE: If he gets his face on TV three more times I`ll consider him a celebrity. I`ll put him in the ring. And I`ll put a stop to all this nonsense.
BEHAR: I love this conversation I could continue this for three more segments but unfortunately I have to go with you guys. So thanks for very much.
LUDWIG: OK.
BEHAR: Up next a one on one with Alexandra Pelosi. The daughter of the most powerful woman in politics. According to Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, we know who that is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Most Americans know Nancy Pelosi, the first female speaker of the house. But there`s another Pelosi making waves in this country. Her daughter Alexandra. With me now is Alexandra Pelosi, director and producer of HBOs "HOMELESS: THE MOTEL KIDS OF ORANGE COUNTY." Welcome to the show, Alexandra. You know Joe Biden called your mother -- I`ll quote you - I`ll tell you what he said. He called her "the most powerful person in American politics other than Obama." Quote, "the single most successful, the single most persuasive, the single most strategic leader I`ve ever worked with." That`s quite a compliment that he gave your mother. She`s an Italian grandmother also, isn`t she?
ALEXANDRA PELOSI, DAUTHER OF NANCY PELOSI: Yes, I don`t know much about that, because I`m not really into politics. But she`s a good grandmother. That`s what I know.
BEHAR: Does she baby-sit?
PELOSI: Yes, I mean, I couldn`t work if she didn`t, well, in the summers, there`s a lot of babysitting.
BEHAR: When does she have time to baby-sit? She`s running the Congress.
PELOSI: Yes, well in the summers is when you get the most bang for your - I can dump -- like the film that I just made, I was on a set in Southern California. So I could like dump the kids at her house, and then go there. I originally brought my kids with me to California because it`s Disneyland is set in Orange County, the happiest place on earth. I thought my kids would love it. They`ll get a vacation just like the rest of the kids that all come from across the world to go to Disneyland for the summer. So I brought them and then but I was like hanging out at soup kitchens. And then like my 2-year-old melted down and started crying, mommy, I want to go to a real restaurant. I don`t want to be in a soup kitchen. So I was like - OK, and all of the kids were catching swine flu. So I was like, OK, maybe it is time to send my kids up to San Francisco to be with grandma for the summer.
BEHAR: You tell the story right there by saying your kids have the option and those kids did not, in the piece. It`s a very good film. I watched it last night, the documentary. Let`s watch a clip from the HBO documentary "HOMELESS: THE MOTEL KIDS OF ORANGE COUNTY."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is it sleeping with your brother?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He puts his body parts all over me. I get no room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he almost squishes me. He lays on my pillows and he almost squishes me off the bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you having a good summer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you hope for this summer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope for a house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Did the film -- did your film and your research change anything that you knew or did not know about homeless people in this country?
PELOSI: Well, when I heard the word homeless, I always assumed that it was -- you know, the mentally ill, drug addicted -
BEHAR: Right.
PELOSI: Drunk on the street corner -
BEHAR: On the subway -
PELOSI: Begging for change. And you know if you give it to them, they`ll go buy liquor with it. But then when I started looking into it, like you know, the average age of homeless America is nine years old.
BEHAR: Wow -
PELOSI: Of the homeless people, 40 percent of them are families.
BEHAR: Yes.
PELOSI: And so -
BEHAR: Forty two percent of them are younger than six. That`s another statistic, which is disgraceful really, in this country.
PELOSI: It is because they give these speeches, the greatest country on earth. And if that`s true then how come we have so many homeless kids eating in soup kitchens? I mean you expect to see that in third world counties, you know, you don`t expect to see that in Orange County.
BEHAR: No you don`t. But I mean these kids, these families are living in motels. This particular film takes place right in Anaheim, I guess, right outside of Disneyland. The irony of that is kind of striking, too. And they live in one motel room. And you lived there with them when you did this right?
PELOSI: I did. I had my kids with me. They were getting lice.
BEHAR: Right.
PELOSI: And bed bugs and swine flu. And that`s when I actually moved across the street. You know it was like a little distance if all the diseases. It`s a very dangerous drug dealers, child predators, all kinds of creepy people living in motels. Places where you would not want your kids to be.
BEHAR: One family you spoke to had six people living in really a small motel room. How did they make that work? I mean it was striking how the parents that you interviewed were sort of cheerful, I found. They were not under it in the way the kids kind of were sadder than the parents, I thought.
PELOSI: Well they work. The thing is you think of homeless people you think of down and out bums, welfare kids, welfare moms. These are people who went to work every day. They got up, they got dressed, and they went to their low paying jobs. And they just didn`t make enough money to afford a place to live.
BEHAR: Well one of them was a nurse`s aide, I think right?
PELOSI: Uh huh.
BEHAR: The one with the husband and the house and he took care of the kids while she did the night shift so she could make a buck and a half more or something per hour. Because she took the night shift.
PELOSI: I bet you paid more for than on a cup of coffee this morning.
BEHAR: Of course.
PELOSI: And this woman has to work extra to make an extra $1.90.
BEHAR: It is terrible. I mean, you know, don`t they have any other income, any welfare money, any source of income besides that one person`s job?
PELOSI: Ironically, these are the people that, you know, you never hear about because they`re living at the poverty line. There almost is -- they work and they make some money. So it`s almost like they`re doing too well to get all those kind of benefits.
BEHAR: Right and they`re living in Orange County, which is an extremely wealthy community. You know. Why do they live there? Why don`t they move to a less expensive -- so they can get an apartment some place.
PELOSI: because that`s where their jobs are and they need to get to work. You need to get back and forth to Disneyland.
BEHAR: Some of them worked in Disneyland.
PELOSI: Walmart, Mcdonald`s. All those places that don`t pay a living wage.
BEHAR: So you mean to tell me that if they moved out -- I`m not criticizing anything about these people, I`m just trying to see what else they can do. If they move to a less expensive neighborhood, they couldn`t get a job at a Mcdonald`s or Walmart same level of job.
PELOSI: I don`t know, I guess they`d lose the job they have there and they`re comfortable there. And also, you know, there`s a special school in the film as you saw.
BEHAR: Yes.
PELOSI: It is called the "Hope" school it is where all the homeless kids are going to school. So they have this place where their kids are taken care of. That`s rare. There are only four of those in America. Where the kids can be taken cared of so that the parents can go to work. Otherwise they`d have to pay for child care and that would be really very expensive.
BEHAR: Of course, you know, one viewer from "Variety" took issue with the fact that you`re using children to make a political point. How do you respond to that kind of criticism?
PELOSI: Well first of all, I think it`s ironic because there`s no talking heads in this movie. It is just a portrait of the children. So I didn`t think it was political at all. I thought I had escaped from doing political movies because I use to make political movies. And they were all comedies but this is a real tragedy. And I thought of - what he is basically saying is he said in his review that this was tied in to the fight in the senate about unemployment benefits being extended. And I was like, I made this movie a year ago. I love that people -- the media has this impression that -
BEHAR: Anyway so what if it was?
PELOSI: But it`s funny that they think you`ve coordinate and it say that the world is organized -
BEHAR: Oh exactly.
PELOSI: But I made this movie with this -
BEHAR: But isn`t it that timing is everything in life? So maybe it will have a wider distribution. Stay right there. We`ll be right back after a quick break, we have more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with director/producer and daughter of Nancy Pelosi, Alexandra Pelosi. You know, in watching the movie, one of the saddest parts of the movie for me and a real heart breaking moment is the kids are so adorable. And when you ask them, what do you have to look forward to? All of them, they thought about the question, and then they said, nothing. Nothing. These kids are depressed. They`re depressed.
PELOSI: They have a lot of problems. They also eat crap all day, you know, fast food that`s free from the state. So they have the obesity issue going. And they`re getting --
BEHAR: The kids were not obese.
PELOSI: But if you look at the adults.
BEHAR: The adults were obese. PELOSI: That`s what happens when you don`t have any money. They eat whatever they give you, and it is not stuff you should be eating.
BEHAR: Yes.
PELOSI: And they - yes, I worried about their mental well-being. Because you know they`re around -- they see so much violence and crazy stuff going on in the places where they live that it has to affect them eventually.
BEHAR: What`s your objective in making this film. What did you want to accomplish? Did you want to just expose the situation?
PELOSI: Yes, I just thought it was important for people to realize that homeless isn`t what you thought it was. That there are a lot of children. And it`s always that thing about, I think that this movie could have been made in any zip code in America not just in Orange County, but it could have been in any County in America. But it also could have been made in a third world country. Where do you see kids playing in dumpsters.
BEHAR: I know looking for toys and discarded stuff, junk. You know let me ask you a hard question. Did you deliberately only interview white families?
PELOSI: Well, they just happened to be the school I was interviewing, that`s who was there.
BEHAR: I`m only asking that because maybe you felt that that would make more of an impact on Republican congressmen and people who tend to, you know, veto any kind of help for people on the -- because -- you know what I`m saying?
PELOSI: You know I was at the "Hope" school where these kids go to school. And that`s who goes there. That`s sort of the population. I guess they don`t have enough black people.
BEHAR: Is the majority, are the majority of people who are homeless white or Caucasian or African-American.
PELOSI: Well in Orange County, white. I don`t know, I mean as far as the national figure, I don`t know about that, actually.
BEHAR: And you know the other thing that bothered me, they live across the street from Disneyland. Then every night there`s those damn fireworks and cars honking. I mean who can live with that? The noise pollution alone would drive me crazy.
PELOSI: Yes but they get some joy from it. They get to see the fireworks for free.
BEHAR: But every single night? What about the adults? They are going demented those poor adults listening to that every night. Do they ever get to go to Disneyland?
PELOSI: Well they can go to the perimeter and see the fireworks. They can walk around in the parking lot.
BEHAR: Doesn`t Disneyland themselves if they find out about these kids, around there, they won`t give them free tickets to go to Disneyland every once in a while?
PELOSI: Are you kidding me? Why do you think there`s no affordable housing in Orange County?
BEHAR: Why?
PELOSI: Well it depends who you`re listening to.
BEHAR: Well I`m listening to you.
PELOSI: Oh thank you, that`s so nice, well, that`s so nice Disneyland has done a lot to build up -- I mean, they have their own government, their own little world --
BEHAR: Oh yes, I know. I worked for them in the daytime.
PELOSI: Right, so you know all about it. If they wanted affordable housing to be built, it would be built.
BEHAR: Well I`m talking about -- OK. I was just talking about some perks you know from Disneyland. But housing is a situation that the government`s going to have to provide. Why doesn`t the government put some housing up there?
PELOSI: They`re trying. But nobody wants it in their backyard. Everyone is fighting --
BEHAR: But they have them in their backyard. That`s the irony of it.
PELOSI: But they pretend that they don`t.
BEHAR: They pretend it but they`re in these motels with lice and bed bugs. That`s terrible. I hope your film gets a lot of attention. Thanks very much, Alexandra. "HOMELESS: THE MOTEL KIDS OF ORANGE COUNTY," it airs Monday night on HBO. Good night, everybody.
END
