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Mom Charged with Killing Kids; Reality Show for Slater?
Aired August 17, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight on The Joy Behar Show, horror in South Carolina as police find two toddlers dead inside a car in a river. Today cops say the mother admitted to suffocating her young sons before driving them into the water. With murder charges looming, everyone is left wondering what could cause a mother to kill.
Then, is the hit show "Mad Men" changing our perceptions of the beautiful woman? With the series showcasing 60`s era hour-glass figures, the eternal debate between curvy and skinny rages on. Where do women fall on the issue and what do men want?
Plus, reality show shake-ups. Infamous instigator Danielle Staub may be fired from "Real Housewives" while furious flight attendant Steve Slater may get his own show. Either way, it pays to be bad.
That and more starting right now.
RENE SYLER, HLN GUEST HOST: Welcome to "THE JOY BEHAR SHOW". I`m Rene Syler filling in for the vacationing Joy Behar.
We begin tonight with a tragic story from South Carolina. A mother there faces murder charges for the deaths of her two small children who were found in a car in a river, submerged in the river. An Orangeburg County sheriff spoke earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF LARRY WILLIAMS, ORANGEBURG CO. SHERIFF`S DEPT: The statement was made by the mother that she had suffocated the children and, of course, the children were dead when they was placed into the water. I felt that in the interview, that she truly felt, if I don`t have these two toddlers, you know, I can be free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SYLER: Authorities have served two murder warrants against 29-year- old Shaquan Duley for the deaths of her children.
Here to discuss are George Parnham, criminal defense attorney and former attorney to Andrea Yates who murdered her five children; Lisa Boesky, clinical psychologist and author; and Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV.
Beth, let`s start with you. Give us the nuts and bolts of the story. What`s the latest?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, the report came in yesterday morning, a little after 6:00 in the morning about an accident. And when police responded to the scene and found the car in the water, they also found something very suspicious.
They didn`t see evidence to support an accident. Skidmarks or anything you would expect that someone would have left behind. Moreover, the call being placed by the now defendant charged with two counts of murder, showed she wasn`t wet. She hadn`t been in the water as though she had gone into the water with her sons or attempted to rescue them.
So they questioned her into the night yesterday and she ultimately confessed to what we just heard. She killed them in a motel room by putting her hand over their mouths and noses. That`s what she said. And they were dead when she put them in the car and she staged it to look --
SYLER: She put them in the car seats --
KARAS: Correct, strapped them in the car seats and staged it to look like an accident. The car was in neutral so she would have put it on a slight incline and let the car roll into the water.
George, let me turn to you. As I said, you were the former attorney - - you represented Andrea Yates. She, of course, is the Houston mother, we remember, who killed her five children. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity.
Does this story sound like -- are there any similarities? Does this sound like the act of a desperate mother?
GEORGE PARNHAM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it obviously was the act of a desperate mother, even the sheriff admits that. This was a mother that was unemployed. This was a mother that apparently had no financial assistance to help raise her toddlers but it bears no similarity, quite frankly, to Andrea`s case and I am still continuing to represent her.
Andrea was suffering from a severe mental illness at the time that this happened. I also think that it`s important to gather as much as we possibly can about this woman`s past history and, quite honestly, not rush to judgment.
She`s still entitled to a trial in that community. And the sheriff seems bound and determined to turn every person in that community into a witness so that she can`t get a fair trial.
SYLER: Let me go back for just a second. You say this case bears no similarity to Andrea Yates. And yet we really don`t know, perhaps this mother was suffering from mental illness. We don`t know, right?
PARNHAM: We don`t know. And what we`ve got to do is turn over every page of her life`s history; to go back, to talk to the Ob-Gyn and the pediatricians and her family and see what type of a troubled past she had.
I agree with the sheriff that this was an act of a desperate individual, and it`s -- unfortunately, unfortunately for the lives of those children, this has happened much too frequently in these times that we face.
SYLER: The sheriff went on. So let`s hear a little more about what his theory is as to what may have triggered this tragedy.
WILLIAMS: She was a mother that was unemployed. She had no means of taking care of her children. She lived with her mother. And the mother was a very, I guess, firm individual.
There was a dispute between the mother and the -- Miss Duley. And we believe this is a direct response from Miss Duley. I believe she was fed up with her mother telling her that she couldn`t take care of the children though she wasn`t taking care of the children and she just wanted to be free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SYLER: "She just wanted to be free". So Lisa is Shaquan Duley then blaming her mother? Is she trying to put all the blame on her?
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, people like this don`t just snap. When a mother kills her children, and it`s very tragic when this happens it very rarely, if ever, is due to one event or one person. Usually the mother`s been feeling this way for a while.
It sounds like to me, and I`m very nervous and concerned about how the sheriff is talking about this, about that she`s fed up and she wants to be free. That is not how these cases work. Usually what happens is that a mother who is actually, quote, unquote, "trying to save her children"; that she feels her children would be better off dead than to be with her.
It`s often an act of love, of trying to save them. And she may feel like she doesn`t have the resources; that she doesn`t have the parenting skills and she actually feels like she`s doing a good thing for them. It`s very rarely that she wants to be free or is mad at somebody.
SYLER: George, that does not sound rational to me. Could she be setting herself up for, say, an insanity plea? Because it`s not a rational reaction to think "I`m going to save my children from evil by killing them."
PARNHAM: The very definition of a mother who takes the life of a child defies explanation and imagination. It`s motherhood turned upside down on its ear. Madonna and child no longer exist.
It seems to me that in this particular situation, we have to look at, again, all the facts and circumstances that come forth from this case. I also find it to be terrifically ironic that this woman suffocates her children because she gets in an argument with her mother?
Now, if that`s the case, then -- and if it`s truly the case, then we really have to dig into the mind-set of Mrs. Duley to find out what`s going on.
SYLER: But I think Lisa said that rarely that would cause someone to snap like that, right, Lisa, isn`t that what you said? That it`s typically not just an argument with her mother; that she could be feeling like this for some time.
BOESKY: That`s exactly right. And the mother -- nobody is to blame for this except the person, obviously, who did that. What we have to look at is why. And I think that the attorney`s correct. We have to look at what`s in her background.
She clearly doesn`t -- we don`t know for sure, but it doesn`t appear that she was like Andrea, hearing voices and being psychotic. But we don`t know that. We need to look in her history. She may be suffering from say something like depression where everybody would be stressed having kids; three children, two 2 years and under. That would be very stressful for everyone.
But if she`s suffering from depression, then her coping skills are even less and things feel even more overwhelming.
And then you look at how much support does she have. If she doesn`t have much support from her family that, in fact, they`re actually berating her or getting on her case about her parenting, that could make her feel worse.
So it tends to be the last straw that break the camel`s back when this happens. It is not something that someone does out of nowhere like all of a sudden wake up one morning, I think I`m going to kill my children. It just doesn`t happen that way.
SYLER: Right. Right. There was a third child as well, Beth. There`s a 5-year-old that she has.
KARAS: Yes, she has a 5-year-old daughter. And these are the two boys who she`s accused of killing. The daughter being raised, according to reports, primarily by her mother. She would travel and go about her business with her two young sons. The daughter, a little older, would stay with her mother, the grandmother.
There`s something in Sheriff Williams`s words though that to me sound like he may be paraphrasing her own words. In defense of Sheriff Williams, I suspect that he wasn`t reaching his own conclusions that she wanted to be free. That`s probably something she said in the course of her statement to the police.
We don`t know exactly what was said except for that she did confess, according to him. We don`t know if that will stand up in court, the circumstances of it. He said they did give her breaks throughout and they were letting her talk and she basically broke down.
So she may have told them that she had the fight and that she wanted to be free. She just couldn`t handle it all.
SYLER: It is -- it`s a tragic story.
If I could -- real quickly Lisa, if you could tell me, is there a warning sign for anyone in our lives that we might think, oh, you know, maybe they need a little bit of help? Should we be paying more attention to the people in our lives?
BOESKY: Absolutely, absolutely. And it sounds ironic, but it is as simple as this. Most of the mothers who do this often say things to people close to them like, I don`t feel safe around my children or I feel like I want to kill my children or I can`t take this anymore. I can`t do this anymore.
And a lot of times when we hear that, we think yes, yes, we know. Parenting is hard.
SYLER: Yes.
BOESKY: But for some of these women, they`re really telling you, I need help. And when someone says, I need help, I think a lot of us today, feel like, well, we don`t want to get into anybody`s business.
SYLER: Yes.
BOESKY: We want to mind our own business.
But I think when we see that parents are really challenged by their job or we see kids are in danger we have our own moral obligation to do something --
SYLER: Absolutely.
BOESKY: -- to do something to help them. They need support not blame.
SYLER: Yes absolutely. Lisa, thank you. Everyone, thank you so much for your insights.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW. Real housewife of New Jersey Danielle Staub is reportedly leaving the show. But did the housewife who everyone loves to hate quit or was she fired?
And the ladies of "Mad Men" have suddenly made it fashionable again for women to sport full figures. But is the hourglass look what men today really want?
Now back to the show.
SYLER: Well, apparently cursing out passengers, grabbing beers and jumping out the emergency exit buys you more than 15 minutes of fame. Who knew?
Disgruntled JetBlue flight attendant Steven Slater has now reportedly been offered his own reality show about, what else, employees quitting their jobs dramatically.
With me to discuss this and so much more of the news of the day are Dee Snider, star of "Growing Up Twisted" on A & E; Michelle Collins, comedienne and managing editor of BestWeekEver.TV; and Bradley Jacobs senior editor "Us Weekly".
Hey, everybody. Ok so -- so Dee --
DEE SNIDER, STAR, "GROWING UP TWISTED": Yes.
SYLER: Did you see this coming, the Steven Slater -- like a mile away, right? This guy is going to get a reality show.
SNIDER: Oh absolutely. Absolutely, I mean, I`m -- I`m not one to complain because of the TV shows has been using "We`re not going to take it" as his anthem. So ka-ching, ka-ching.
SYLER: Oh yes, right you get something for that, don`t you?
SNIDER: Oh yes I do.
SYLER: Yes.
SNIDER: Lineup and quit your jobs. Ka-ching.
SYLER: That`s (INAUDIBLE) -- so you did think that was -- that was coming -- surely?
SNIDER: Oh well, you know reality show, of course. I thought you meant an airline attendant snapping like a Vietnam vet. Yes, I saw that coming, too. I do a lot of flying.
SYLER: And I feel like kind of feel bad for them, because they really do take a lot of guff. I`ve heard on my own Web site from people, you don`t know what it`s like to be in the service industry. They do take a lot. But I mean --
BRADLEY JACOBS, SENIOR EDITOR, US WEEKLY: Yes, they are angry. But you know, these days all you need is someone willing to do something stupid on camera.
SYLER: Yes.
JACOBS: Another crew willing to film it, and then an opportunity to put it on television. We could all be millionaires. Who would have ever seen that the "Jersey Shore" kids would have become a phenomenon? Today`s bad idea is tomorrow`s phenomenon.
SYLER: I know, I know, I just got to get on the back end of that, or the front end. What am I saying? Yes.
MICHELLE COLLINS, COMEDIENNE AND MANAGING EDITOR, BESTWEEKEVER.TV: Be a lady about it.
I have to say I am absolutely sick of this guy`s face, although if he were to have a reality show for who has the biggest gay face, that I would watch and by the way he would win. Because he has -- the gayest face I`ve ever seen in my life.
But if he had a reality --
SNIDER: That`s not a bad thing.
COLLINS: No, that`s a great thing. I live for gay faces. But if he --
JACOBS: Last night you were surrounded by gay faces.
COLLINS: I always am. That`s why I`m so alone. But if he had a show where people like pulled the slide and every time they were eliminated they had to slide down -- if they don`t play --
SYLER: Yes, don`t give these ideas.
COLLINS: I know. I`m off the floor.
SYLER: Right there.
JACOBS: Somewhere he`s rolling over in his grave.
SYLER: Yes, but you know what, seriously, I mean, there`s a part of me honestly, that I am -- I am tired of trying to get ahead the old- fashioned way. You know go to college and work your way up. I want a sex tape. And so what are you doing later?
SNIDER: That`s a funny thing that you mention that, because my wife is saying that that`s what we need to generate more interest in our show "Growing Up Twisted" Tuesday nights, tonight on A & E.
SYLER: And you do that very well.
SNIDER: Yes.
SYLER: So your wife is saying if that sex tape with me is actually going to help your ratings, because I don`t get that.
SNIDER: Well, I`ll talk to her. You have a lot going on here. You`re married, I`m married, and the interracial thing. The hair.
SYLER: Oh the hair, right.
COLLINS: That isn`t Laurence Fishburne. Am I wrong here?
(CROSS TALKING)
SNIDER: He failed -- she`s off the pole.
SYLER: Right, yes.
COLLINS: She was on the pole, yes.
SYLER: Your job is to keep her off the pole.
All right. Hey, let`s talk about Danielle --
SNIDER: Literally.
SYLER: Danielle Staub, she`s the -- the always bringing the drama real housewife. And it looks like she has been booted, right? I mean, did you see that coming?
JACOBS: Yes, well I saw that. I didn`t see it coming because the thing is I`ve met all the housewives.
SYLER: Yes.
JACOBS: I`ve interviewed them all for "Us Weekly." She is the one that loves being a bitch. All the other ones are kind of nice. Caroline, especially Jacqueline, she`s so nice, Theresa, despite the bankruptcy or whatever.
But Danielle loves being the bitch. So I don`t know how they`re going to do a show without a bitch.
SYLER: Well, maybe they`ll get another one.
COLLINS: I disagree. I first of all, I watch all --
JACOBS: Oh is that and went crawling --
(CROSS TALKING)
COLLINS: -- like I would live in Jersey. Here`s the thing --
SNIDER: Be a bitch in New York but not Jersey.
COLLINS: No, I love Danielle on the show because the other ones, if they get rid of her, it`s just going to be you know, a bunch of a-holes living in a big house because they`re all idiots.
SYLER: Wow.
COLLINS: I can say that, right, HLN? That`s already an acronym. You know, the Jersey house is the dumbest of all the housewives. At least in D.C., they`re a little intelligent. But these -- do you watch the show, Dee?
SNIDER: No, I do not but there`s always a chance that Snooki might get married and move to New Jersey.
SYLER: Yes right.
SNIDER: She is from Jersey.
COLLINS: The camera would have like --
(CROSS TALKING)
SYLER: So do you think that the show is going to jump -- it`s going to jump the shark without her?
COLLINS: It think it already has. I think this season has been unbelievably blind. The only drama they have is the drama with Danielle.
JACOBS: Right so --
COLLINS: So when she`s is out --
JACOBS: -- when she`s gone there`s just going to be -- so you and I agree.
COLLINS: Yes.
JACOBS: -- we don`t disagree.
COLLINS: We both say no.
SYLER: Yes but what is -- Dee, I mean, I think I read somewhere that maybe she`s going to get a spin-off. Can she hold her own show? Is there enough -- can I say -- can I say -- I`m -- ok, is there a bitchiness there for her to be able to hold her own show.
SNIDER: The problem with these spin-offs is they fail often because it`s too much of a good thing. You know, it`s happened. They tried to spin off -- a lot of different shows have tried it and it always fails. So I don`t know what they`re up to. Because like I said, if she seems to be - -
JACOBS: Bethenny Frankel got her own spin-off.
COLLINS: Yes, yes.
JACOBS: And people were doubtful, but it proved to be a success because she went from being kind of a cold person to kind of a warm person. She had a baby, she got married, she found love and happiness for the first time.
SYLER: And lost her weight in a month.
COLLINS: I know.
JACOBS: But really she`s a different Bethenny than you saw a year ago. When she was on the -- I don`t think Danielle has an ark in her lifetime.
COLLINS: Let me just say one thing --
SYLER: Yes.
COLLINS: It`s that Danielle could have her own spin-off showing the world how she stole Christmas.
(CROSS TALKING)
COLLINS: I would watch that.
SNIDER: Wait a minute. Her and Slater.
(CROSS TALKING)
SNIDER: Roommates -- the new odd couple.
(CROSS TALKING)
SYLER: Everybody, stay there, stay there. Stop talking. We have more pop culture dish on the way.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLER: And more drama for Mel Gibson. The actor lost control of his Maserati and crashed into a rocky Malibu hillside yesterday. Fortunately the only thing hurt was his car, as you can see in this picture taken from TMZ.
And I`m back with my panel. Dee, police say that alcohol was not involved. Do you think he just is overwhelmed by all of the things going on in his life?
SNIDER: You know what? I want to make a joke but it`s getting to that point with him where it`s starting to become really sad and pathetic. Like with Britney Spears at first, it was like, she cut her hair off. And then all of a sudden there`s a point, like she was a mess. He`s at that point where it`s just -- I`m starting to feel sorry for him.
SYLER: It`s just gone from bad to worse.
SNIDER: Even though he`s a horrible racist and white supremacist but other than that, I feel sorry for him.
JACOBS: So he crashed his car. So interesting that it definitely wasn`t a DUI, but he actually may have been asleep at the wheel. And it was 8:35 p.m. But I`m sure this guy has not had a good night`s sleep in months.
COLLINS: I was going to say I`m glad to know he sleeps. And that`s like -- it sounds like an Ambien situation to me. I`m obsessed with Ambien sleepwalkers. I`m like, you know, people take Ambien and then they like cook entire meals.
I also think he`s on Ambien when he hates Jews. I think awake he`s like a temple.
(CROSS TALKING)
SNIDER: Everybody is Freudian around here.
SYLER: But wouldn`t you think that everybody is watching his every move. Wouldn`t you think that he would be a little more careful?
COLLINS: A segue.
SNIDER: Or like get a driver.
SYLER: Yes.
JACOBS: Why drive yourself if you`re tired and drive yourself home? People who can`t afford anything call car services in New York.
SYLER: And this is -- let me take just kind of a hard turn here. In other Mel news, this was a hard turn, right. His housekeeper, who was set to testify against him in this domestic violence trial died over the weekend. She suffered from cancer. And she died.
Clearly, this will have some sort of impact, you would think, on the child, right? Wouldn`t you think, Bradley?
JACOBS: Yes. This is one star witness that Oksana planned for that will not be turning up at the trial. But also it`s a little suspect -- I mean, I don`t want to speak ill of the situation, but you know, it was just one person testifying. She heard the voice mail messages. We all heard all the voice mail messages already. I`m not sure how valuable her testimony would have been.
COLLINS: How did she die? Are we sure that she died from cancer?
(CROSS TALKING)
SYLER: Have you heard this? Octomom Nadya Suleman has written a book. She wrote a biography. And not one publisher is taking. Is anyone surprised?
COLLINS: The octo-biography. No one`s grabbing it?
SYLER: No, are you -- serious -- are you really surprised by that.
SNIDER: What`s it called "Womb for Rent"?
JACOBS: Maybe that`s --
She`s holding the title. She doesn`t want to explain what the title is. She thinks it will get people to buy it when it`s in stores.
SYLER: Is there anything about this story that we don`t already know?
COLLINS: Yes.
SYLER: What?
COLLINS: Number one, I have a theory that her kids are on every chapter. I think that once they got old enough, they`re going to be in like Toys r Us like backward (INAUDIBLE). That`s how it got sent to the publisher.
But how did all those kids stay in there for so many months? Honestly, how do the muscles hold all those children in?
(CROSS TALKING)
SYLER: Why are you asking me? I had two. I just carried them one at a time. I don`t know.
JACOBS: She`s not going to reveal the husbands or the father. There`s just nothing left to tell. She did interviews with "Us Weekly" and a zillion other places. She gave it all away. If she was going to do a book, she should have had it published months ago.
SYLER: Yes. I agree.
All right. You guys thanks, great insight. Thanks for the laughs.
Catch Dee Snider on the season finale of "Growing Up Twisted", Tuesday August 24th at 10:00 p.m. on A & E.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, the hit show "Mad Men" has brought back the idea that it`s OK for women to have curves and support fuller figures, but is this the look today that men really want? Now back to the show.
SYLER: Hi, everyone. Welcome back. I`m Rene Syler filling in for Joy. Zsa Zsa Gabor is in her Bel-Air home tonight after declining additional surgery yesterday afternoon. Over the weekend, the 93-year-old legend asked for a priest to be called to her bedside to perform last rites. Here with an update on her condition is her husband of 24 years Prince Frederick Von Anhalt. Hi, how are you?
PRINCE FREDERIC VON ANHALT, ZSA ZSA GABOR`S HUSBAND: Fine. How are you doing?
SYLER: I`m good. How is Zsa Zsa right now?
ANHALT: Well, she came home last night, and there are no changes from yesterday, but I think, you know, the environment, the new environment, being at home, getting fresh air up in Bel-Air, seeing all the green sites, it makes her feel better. I can see that already. Even though she doesn`t talk very much to me, but I can see it in her face. Being married 24 years, you know every inch of your wife`s face and every movement of your wife`s face. And I can see she feels much better. She feels safer. There are no nurses around with injections and doing and pushing there and pumping in something there. So it`s much better at home. And I think it`s the best medicine for her to be at home. Over the last four and half years she almost asked me every day, I want to go home, I want to go home, please take me home. And yesterday she had a couple of little problems in the morning and her doctor said, we have to check this through. And there was a decision, something happened to her liver, you know. Shall we go into more or not. And she didn`t want no more operation. I didn`t want it. And so we all decided just to get out of it and go home.
SLYER: So she did decline this additional surgery.
ANHALT: Yes. She declined everything. She just wanted to go home, you know? She couldn`t take it anymore. She told me over the last day, I can`t take it anymore. Please take me, please take me home. She caught my hand and squeezed my hand and said, just take me home. I`m almost sure she`s going to do much better at home than in the hospital.
SYLER: So you`re optimistic?
ANHALT: I`m very optimistic. I`m a positive guy. I`m going to get her out of bed. I`m telling you, I`ll get her out of this mess.
SYLER: Twenty four years you were married. Saturday was your anniversary, right?
ANHALT: Saturday was our 24th anniversary. Unfortunately, we didn`t sit on a nice dinner table, with champagne and caviar. I ate my food out of a plastic container and she got fed through a tube. That`s the mess we`re in right now, but there is another year. Next year is the 25th anniversary. It`s a quarter of a century being married in Hollywood and especially to Zsa Zsa Gabor, this is one for the Guinness book of records. I can hardly wait.
SYLER: Yes, 24 years, that is impressive absolutely in Hollywood. Is there anything that Zsa Zsa would like to convey to her fans? Because so many of them are keeping her in their thoughts and prayers.
ANHALT: Well yes. I showed her boxes of mail, and we got so much e- mail. So many phone calls and flowers. It looked already like a mortuary out here, so many flowers we had. And at this point, you know, I`m talking on her behalf and want to thank everybody. You know, all the fans around the world who send the flowers and the mail and wish her well. And I can promise you, I`m going to take good care of you -- make sure she gets well for you guys and hopefully entertain you soon again.
SYLER: That`s very sweet. We`re thinking of you and of Zsa Zsa, thank you so much. We`ll keep her in our thoughts.
ANHALT: Thank you. Thank you so much.
SYLER: OK, switching gears now to a controversy about the subjectiveness of beauty. The show "Mad Men" has made stars of the voluptuous Christina Hendricks. When asked how it showcased a more curvy form, January Jones said, "[The show`s creator] would prefer that we didn`t work out and that we eat really well so that we look like healthy women. I wish more women would realize that`s what men like. Is she right? Well, maybe. After all, it was only yesterday that former supermodel Tyra Banks apologized for showcasing a 6`2" woman with an impossibly thin waist for a promo of the new season of "AMERICA`S TOP MODEL." So what is the preferred standard of beauty and does it matter what men want? Here with me to answer that are our guests Robin Quivers, radio personality and news anchor of the "HOWARD STERN SHOW," actress Nikki Blonsky, star of ABC family`s "HUGE," and Ann Slowy, fashion director for "Elle" magazine. Hello, ladies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
SYLER: January Jones, she`s the slimmest of all of them.
ROBIN QUIVERS, "HOWARD STERN SHOW": Yes, she`s sort of the Grace Kelly character in the show. She`s very slender and svelte.
ANN SLOWY, FASHION DIRECTOR FOR "ELLE" MAGAZINE: sample size, which I can vouch for.
SYLER: Which is what?
SLOWY: It depends, but let`s say it`s a zero.
SLYER: That`s the sample.
SLOWY: I have people say to me, I used to be a size zero. I`m like really? Yes size zero. On the runway, it`s zero.
SYLER: And you think -- is that what we should be aspiring to, to be a size zero?
SLOWY: No.
NIKKI BLONSKY, ACTRESS: Not at all.
SLOWY: First of all, who could be? I mean, very few people could be a size zero just because of their body frame.
QUIVERS: I think the kind of person that`s a size zero is in it for the profession, so you`re a very young model or you`re a --
SLOWY: You haven`t even matured.
BLONSKY: Or it could be a person`s metabolism. Everybody`s body makeup is so different.
SYLER: Absolutely.
BLONSKY: Sometimes it`s genetic and sometimes it`s not.
SYLER: Well many of us could never be a size zero, so that`s something to aspire to.
QUIVERS: Here`s the newsflash, for those of you at home going yes, I`m a size zero. Wait until you get over age 25. Because honestly, when you get to be over -- you`re a woman over 40, it`s a lot harder. I don`t want to spend all my time working out and not enjoying my life.
QUIVERS: But I did hear that after you have children, don`t you get a little wider?
SLYER: Wait a minute.
SLOWY: You eat 3,000 calories, that`s why I did this. Get thin.
SYLER: Yes all right so we saw this piece the other day, this promotion for "AMERICA`S NEXT TOP MODEL" with Tyra bringing out this woman that was very, very tiny waist. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANN, MODEL ON AMERICA`S TOP MODEL: I`m from Dallas.
TYRA BANKS: You have the smallest waist in the world. Will you look at this waist? How tall are you?
ANN: I`m 6`2".
BANKS: There`s something about her that I like!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s going to make Ms. J eat tic tacs and watercress for the rest of the season.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SYLER: She came out yesterday and apologized for that because she felt like that -- I guess she had to clarify saying we weren`t really pushing that as a standard of beauty. But that was shocking to see. Weren`t you surprised to see that girl with that teeny, tiny waist?
QUIVERS: What I mean, if somebody`s physically built that way and they haven`t done anything surgically to create that, it`s OK to showcase how you look and what you have.
SYLER: I don`t think she really was -- that`s her makeup. She looked hungry to me.
QUIVERS: Well I`m not saying -- she`s model thin, but again, the waist size is something that`s sort of genetic not everybody is going to - - even if they`re thin, is going to have a waist that is small.
SLOWY: My mom had an 18 inch waist. And believe me I never had anything near it. It was her genetic structure and she ate a lot. But the models do have a tendency to under eat a lot.
QUIVERS: I heard the craziest story. Watching this documentary on some runway models. They said that they used to buy shrimp a week before the show, pit on the window sill for three days.
SLOWY: What?
QUIVERS: And then eat it, get food poisoning and throw up for a couple of days.
BLONSKY: Oh, my gosh.
QUIVERS: So that`s what they`re doing to look like that.
SLOWY: I never heard that story, but there is the joke about diarrhea.
SYLER: Nikki do you think that there`s progress made. Are we willing to accept women who look the way healthy women look?
BLONSKY: Yes. I wouldn`t be sitting here if that wasn`t the case. I think the world, I think Hollywood is just finally ready for just some realism. When you think about it, most of the country is not a size zero, doesn`t have this big of a waist. So you know, I think sometimes when you`re putting these people out there on the screen in the public eye, kids are starting to feel bad about themselves if they don`t look like those people. So it`s putting a bad message out to kids. And so I think with our show on ABC Family "HUGE," I think no pun intended with the title, but it is huge. It`s breaking boundaries. It has a full plus-sized cast where kids can go, hey, those kids look like us and they`re going through issues that we`re going through. You know? And I think it`s just making kids more comfortable with themselves.
SYLER: Well I mean because we started off with a jumping off point talking about the TV show "Mad Men" which has been critically acclaimed but kids are not watching "Mad Men." they`re not seeing Christina Hendricks voluptuous form.
QUIVERS: Haven`t we all known in our lives people who aren`t necessarily the -- you know, society`s model of what should be beautiful and sexy who still are beautiful and sexy. We act like these people don`t exist somehow in Hollywood. But I`ve known people who -- you know you would say why does she feel so good about herself? But she`s voluptuous and she`s sexy and has men dripping all over her.
SYLER: Yes but don`t you think though that come with a certain something?
QUIVERS: Confidence - it comes from inside, yes.
SYLER: But also I think after you`ve lived on the planet for some time and you`re comfortable in your skin.
SLOWY: You learn to accept yourself.
BLONSKY: Well I also think it`s the way you`re raised. And you know people always ask me, I`m 21, people say, you know, how can you be so confident at 21? You know there`s no way, you must be putting on a facade. Now, this is really how I am. And that`s because my parents raised me. And my mom`s in the green room. I want to thank her. Because her and my dad, Carl, raised me telling I`m their beautiful little girl. And I never believed anything different. And I won`t believe anything different.
QUIVERS: Yes, and I think you are absolutely right, I think everybody should be telling themselves I`m beautiful just the way I am.
SLOWY: Yes, it`s a matter of self-esteem really.
QUIVERS: Absolutely and not comparing themselves to a model on a cover of a magazine.
SLYER: An unattainable standard, right. Ladies stay with me, we are going to continue this. Up next, what do men really want? Probably best to go right to the source for that answer. One of the stars of the "Expendables," joins in on the conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SLYER: Well we`re back discussing the ideal female form. So are men really liking this new "Mad Men" full figured renaissance? Let`s bring in Terry Crews, former old spice guy and actor in the new movie "The Expendables." hi, Terry.
TERRY CREWS, :THE EXPENDABLES": How are you doing?
SLYER: I`m good. Not that we really care or that we`re going to change anything, but really what do men think? If you were going to take a woman out on a date, would you be more inclined to do that if she was really skinny and ate salad or is it she was more full figured and had a burger?
CREWS: No, no, she`s got to be happy. You know what I mean? I`ve been married for 21 years, I have four daughters. I want the women in my life happy, OK. The big deal is the big mistake is made in trying to set up an ideal in the first place. There is no ideal. You will never reach this impossible ideal that everybody`s talking about. Because look, men love women. Men love women. All different sizes, shapes, colors, period. You will never stop men from loving women, period. And I just think that you`re really setting yourself up for failure when you try to talk about an ideal. That`s totally impossible. It`s like for men to reverse, just like setting up Justin Bieber and saying we all got to look like that. Look, I`m hopeless. There`s no way, I can`t do the hair. It`s not going to happen. It`s not going to happen!
SLYER: But, are women doing this for women? If they`re not doing it for men, who are they doing it for?
CREWS: The media. There`s the Hollywood stereotype. For men, the NFL is the standard. Dude, a lot of guys are hopeless to try to look like the NFL standard. It`s what you`re around. And then when you go to Hollywood, everybody looks like that. But in real life, men love women. You know what I`m saying? I just got to reiterate that fact. I made a lot of mistakes with my wife because I`ve always asked that, do I look fat question, uh-oh.
SLYER: Uh huh.
CREWS: In 21 year, I`ve made that mistake. But I remember with my daughter. She`s 19. I used to be on her, we got to be in shape. And you know I found out she started feeling unloved. And that was my big mistake. And she really sat me down and said, I feel like you don`t love me. Whoa. I`m thinking I`m helping you. I`m thinking I`m with you. I turned everything around. Then I said, you know what? Now I`m just going to love you 100 percent love you.
SLYER: Right, right. And -
CREWS: Now it`s crazy. She works out, does her thing, because she knows I love her. You know what I`m saying?
SLYER: And Nikki, that talks to what you were just speaking with, the fact that this unconditional love from your parents no matter the size is really, really important.
BLONSKY: Absolutely, it`s the support that carries you through your entire life. You never forget your childhood and how you`re treated by the most important people in your life, your parents.
SLYER: Did you see the video that was playing when terry was talking.
SLOWY: Yes, I was watching it. Yes, I was watching.
SLYER: I don`t understand that world. Why is it that someone would look at a model with bones protruding like that and think, I got to have me some of those underwear or whatever?
SLOWY: The industry`s gone through a bit of a wake-up call in the last four years. They`ve really made an effort to not -- to pay attention and to wake up. There`s that horrible story of Carolina who was 88 pounds and contracted the infection which killed her because she was anorexic. You know who`s paying attention? We spend a lot of time together in the industry. Like somebody needed to wake up. You see like designers Marc Jacobs for fall this season they showed more full, curvier, rounded body models to show off their collections. I think you know the eye is trying to -- we`re trying to consciously change it. I don`t think anyone who is under fed looks healthy or attractive. I think these girls aren`t being advised correctly. They`re not being taken care of properly. They`re highly competitive. It`s a highly competitive industry.
SLYER: But Robin, it`s different in African-American communities where curves have long been accepted. I hear Terry. I hear Terry.
SLOWY: Yes he`s going Amen.
CREWS: Yes let me tell you something, you know what we used to call it? We use to call it big boned. You know what I mean.
SLYER: And it was called healthy, right.
CREWS: Big boned, you know.
SLYER: It`s healthy. It`s healthy.
CREWS: It`s healthy, it`s wonderful.
(CROSSTALK)
BLONSKY: -- I use to go to the back yard thing.
(LAUGHTER)
SLYER: Yes but it is something that has been accepted among African- Americans more readily than among others.
QUIVERS: But you know what, those things are beginning to crop up in the African-American communities too. I saw a special not too long ago about black women with eating disorders. And then so we are being impacted by the media just like every other community at this point.
SLYER: You know I heard long ago a saying about, at some point, you know as a woman, as you age, you have to choice between you - and your face.
(CROSSTALK)
SLYER: But seriously, you`re either very, very skinny. Listen and why wouldn`t you? That`s what I`m going to do. I`m going with my face and if that means, I have to weigh ten extra pounds, as long as I`m healthy. And I think that`s really even the concern. When I heard the quote from the creator of "Mad Men," saying that he didn`t want the women to work out.
SLOWY: Yes.
SLYER: We do want to work out -
QUIVERS: Working out is good. Yes. It`s good for you. I mean - all things in moderation you know. And I think one of the problems is men dictating what women should do.
CREWS: Right.
SLOWY: Well the funny thing is "Playboy" wrote a story about how brain scans of men and they actually do fire synapse more frequently when they are looking at a voluptuous woman. It has mostly to do with the ratio between the waist and the breast and the hips.
SLYER: Right.
SLOWY: So it`s proportion maybe more so than actual like flesh. But you know, I think, most the men I know, you know, they like a real woman.
SLYER: And most of the men who gravitate toward those mode types. You know I`ve had - we`ve had beautiful women in the studio all the time. And I can remember one of them saying to me, as she was getting older, it`s tough to be beautiful because this doesn`t last forever.
QUIVERS: Yes, right.
SLYER: And when your whole life has been about this, and it starts to go, you really don`t have much else to rely on.
QUIVERS: Good thing I never had to worry about that.
SLYER: None of us.
QUIVERS: I have a wonderful personality.
(LAUGHTER)
SLYER: All right you guys, thanks, stay right there. We`ll be back in just a minute.
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: Hello, hello. Stay with us friends, we are speaking justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SLYER: And I`m back with my panel. Terry I`m going to come out to you. I want to hear about your new movie the "Expendables." Are there good, strong, real size looking women in the movie? Please tell me yes.
CREWS: Yes there are very healthy women in our movie.
(LAUGHTER)
CREWS: Very healthy, very real. No - it`s a great deal. I mean that`s what really what a real man wants. This movie is the manliest movie ever made. We knew we had to put some real women in there.
SLYER: What is it about, Terry, tell me about it? It is in theaters now, tell me about it.
CREWS: Yes we play a gang of mercenaries, we are out on the fringes who really - we decide to do one great deed. We`ve been bad guys all our lives. But we decided to do one good thing. And it`s a love story with violence.
(LAUGHTER)
SLYER: Really a testosterone laden love story. Who would have thought.
CREWS: I`m just telling you.
SLYER: Who does Terry fall in love with?
CREWS: I fell in love with my gun. If you ever see it - I have a gun I call my girlfriend.
SLYER: Nikki, of course, we know you were in "Hairspray" you said just a moment ago, off camera, that you were on award show the girls were really, really thin. They were teenagers right?
BLONSKY: Yes, absolutely.
SLYER: And possibly looking - skinny.
BLONSKY: You know, I have to say, that`s why I`m so thankful - like a said before that "HUGE" is on the air. Because you know, the TV shows that are out right now. Not to name anyone in particular, certain ones like "zip codes" and other things like that - it`s very, very thin, and I think girls are trying to attain that quote unquote "beauty" but I - just - like you said it`s unattainable.
SLOWY: Well Heidi Montag -
BLONSKY: It`s not real.
SLOWY: Went through ten or 12 surgeries in a day. And I heard you know, she wanted to be the best Heidi she could be and she thought it was to change herself physically -
BLONSKY: If only she had started from within.
(CROSSTALK)
QUIVERS: I find that interesting because, first of all, it`s going to change. Once you know - 23, what you are at 23 is not the same as you are at 43. It`s all going to be different. So whatever - it needs to come from in here.
SLOWY: Well it`s really what the discussion should be. And I think you know, it`s healthy for people to talk about these things. And I wish it were a bigger discussion out there in the media. It`s really about self esteem. And you know figuring out, you know, what feels right for you. And what point are you healthy. And that`s the goal. What is the best you you can be.
(CROSSTALK)
SLYER: And this is all great. And this is all pie in the sky and I love that we are having this conversation. But are the people, the movers and shakers, the people who are really making the decisions going to listen. I know that they are a band of a couple of very, very skinny - a couple of shows that banned skinny models on the runways but are we really going to make head way? In that?
SLOWY: Well you know, Marc Jacobs talking about doing plus size models. I mean I think if you look at the plus size industry, they spend $25 million a year on clothes. The you know, the average women is 5`3, she weighs 167, she has a body mass index of 29.2. But yes the CDC says obesity starts at 30. So you know you have to look at like well, where is the majority? What is healthy? But how is fashion responding to it? I mean absolutely you are seeing healthier and healthier models.
BLONSKY: I think it also needs to come from somebody who is plus size. And that`s why I`m starting my own clothing line.
SLOWY: Yes, that`s great. Oh good for you. Excellent.
BLONSKY: I want girls to feel as beautiful as I do.
SLYER: Aww you guys thank you so much.
QUIVERS: That and put something on people -
BLONSKY: Thank you. Thank you Robin.
SLYER: Ladies thank you so much. Everybody can catch Nikki Blonsky in ABC Family`s "HUGE" on Monday`s at 9:00 p.m. The season finale airs August 30th. And check out Terry Crews in "The Expendables" now in theaters. I`m Rene Slyer, have a great night everyone.
END
