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Joy Behar Page
Navigating Breakups; Tiger Woods Divorce Drama
Aired August 23, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PATTI STANGER, GUEST HOST: Hello. Welcome to THE JOY BEHAR SHOW. I`m Patti Stanger sitting in for Joy Behar.
We`ve got a good glimpse of how ugly breakups can be as the Tiger Woods divorce drama played out in the media. Well, it became final officially today.
Why do some couples last, while others don`t? It`s a question I get a lot.
Joining me to talk about navigating the break-up waters are from Bravo`s "Real Housewives of New York City" and author of "Class with the Countess" Countess Luann De Lesseps; relationship expert and author of "Been There, Done That, Kept the Jewelry", Cooper Lawrence; and sex therapist and relationship counselor Ian Kerner. Hi guys. Welcome.
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: One thing I have to ask you, Cooper, I`m going to hit you first. Why do people break up? I know a little bit about breakups. As in the news, I just broke up. Why do people mostly break up?
COOPER LAWRENCE, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: They mostly break up because going into the relationship, they didn`t know what they wanted. They get into the relationship and they go, wait a minute, I didn`t want this.
That`s why, like in my book, I talk about you should beforehand think about what you want. For example, if you know you want children and you go into a relationship and the person says, I don`t want kids -- that`s not going to work out.
STANGER: Don`t you think people change? Like, for instance, Ian, you`re a sex therapist.
IAN KERNER, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Yes.
STANGER: And "She Comes First", my favorite book out there.
KERNER: Thank you.
STANGER: Don`t you think people break up because the sex went away?
KERNER: I think you know, it`s interesting, when you meet somebody and you fall in love there`s so much unpredictability and spontaneity and magic. As soon as you get into a relationship, things have to become kind of more predictable, especially if you have kids down the line. They become predictable, they become routine and you need that kind of transparency.
So on the one hand, you got to be all kind of unpredictable and mysterious to kind of keep the sex alive, but then on the other hand, in day-to-day life, you have to be very routine. Most couples end up failing because of the routine and because they`re not really bringing the --
STANGER: Really? Because of the routine?
KERNER: I think they`re not bringing enough novelty, enough newness, enough friendship, enough humor -- all of those things.
STANGER: You agree with that Luann?
COUNTESS LUANN DE LESSEPS, AUTHOR, "CLASS WITH THE COUNTER": Yes, I think that you have to keep it spicy. You have to have a lot of interests. I think people get -- you know, they get used to the routine and they stay with the routine and they should shake it up, do new things, try new things.
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: I see money breaks people up. There are choices in money.
KERNER: Oh, sure.
STANGER: Because for instance, if you`re successful, he`s not. That happens to be a deal breaker, right? Do you agree?
LAWRENCE: Well, for some people. For other people, they love the fact that -- I mean, my husband is a stay at home husband and I love that about him because I`m a (INAUDIBLE). I`m a little odd. But that`s how we roll. That`s our thing.
But everyone is very unique about that. So as long as you know ahead of time what you`re looking for -- if I was with a guy that couldn`t put up with that, this wouldn`t work out.
KERNER: There`s a study between couples who succeed and couples who fail. The ones who succeed have maintained a very high ratio of positive communication -- 5 to 1.
STANGER: I don`t want the talk about it, though. I don`t like to come -- you and I talk all day. Look, do you really want to come home and chat, chat, chat. It`s like it`s too much talking. Like in California, all they want to do is go to, you know, therapy.
KERNER: Everybody is alone together because of digital technology. You don`t want to talk to your partner, you don`t want to talk to your spouse but everyone is all too eager to get on Facebook and start chatting away. And I think one of the issues, we`re spending too much time with digital technology, too much time Facebooking instead of facetiming with each other.
STANGER: Oh, God. You`re so cute.
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: So let`s talk about your break up, ok, because I just went through a public breakup. I`m putting you on the hot seat. You pretend I`m Joy, that`s all very (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: So allegedly, he broke up with you via e-mail, is that correct?
DE LESSEPS: I knew that was going to come up. You know, officially we were separated, so to give him credit, we were separated. And he wrote to me and said to me, you know, I do have somebody serious and I want you to know first. So officially it came to the media that it was over, you know, an e-mail, but really we were separated before, to be fair to him.
STANGER: Now, did you have an open marriage like -- did you guys like date other people when you were married?
DE LESSEPS: No, absolutely not. But we had a long distance marriage. That`s very, very difficult. So he traveled a lot. You know, that`s difficult life to lead.
KERNER: A lot of guys break up over the e-mail. Like guys are kind of cowards --
STANGER: Is that true? I heard the texting thing -- teenagers do the texting.
KERNER: Texting and e-mailing. Guys can be very cowardly when it comes to breaking up.
STANGER: Like, you mean, post-it note like "Sex and the City"?
DE LESSEPS: But I think, you know, when you meet the person, you know you meet the right person.
STANGER: And you just met somebody recently.
DE LESSEPS: I did.
STANGER: I heard you`re over the moon in love. I have my sources at Bravo that tell me this.
DE LESSEPS: I am so happy. It`s fabulous. You know when you meet somebody, they have these certain qualities. And I think you need to know what you`re looking for. It`s like shopping. If you go and you don`t know what you want, you stay there all day, you have to ask five people what they think about your choice. When you have all these doubts, I think when in doubt duck. And I talk about that in the book. Just forget it.
STANGER: Ok. Cooper and Ian, give me some advice. I`m new, I`m on the singles market. What do I do?
LAWRENCE: I think the first thing you do -- I mean you made a really good point because you knew what you wanted. You went into the relationship going, you know what this guy fills my criteria. A lot of women specifically don`t think about that ahead of time. They just get involved with somebody. And they make his life their criteria and it doesn`t work.
But the truth is you have your own wants and needs that this guy might not fill. So you have to make a decision ahead of time -- what are deal breakers and what are not. And that`s unique to you.
STANGER: Deal breakers can change. And that`s what I say to everybody. Recently I got criticized because I said I wanted children. He wanted children in the beginning, he changed his mind. There are no absolutes in life.
DE LESSEPS: Wait. He wanted children in the beginning?
STANGER: And then he changed his mind.
(CROSSTALK)
KERNER: At least he knew. At least he knew. A lot of guys fall in love. They`re like you want two kids, you want ten kids, I`m all for it. And then they realize once they`re in a relationship and in a marriage how they really feel. At least he kind of knew in advance. He took some time to soul search and figure it out.
STANGER: Well, yes, but he hit 50 and the bell went off. He thought he was too old. You know what I`m saying? There are other reasons why people break up other than money and sex. What are some of the other reasons?
KERNER: I think it`s really important that when you`re in a relationship great couples are great individuals. You know, my wife, she works, she has an amazing career and she has her friends. And I think we bring our individualism to the relationship. A lot of times when you get into a relationship, you start living through each other and you become so merged. I think it`s important not to be so merged.
STANGER: But sometimes that`s the good part.
Sometimes opposites attract and zig and zag and you learn their interests and they learn your interests and they mix the party.
DE LESSEPS: I think there`s a difference between merging and complacency, you know. People get complacent and they forget about pleasing their partner and doing things to make them happy. You may not want to go to the ballet. You may not want to go to the sports game.
(CROSSTALK)
LAWRENCE: People break up because, you know, it depends what age you got together. People change. Your identity changes.
STANGER: We all evolve at a different rate. That`s true.
LAWRENCE: That`s a very big deal. The person you were when you start the relationship may not be the person you are five years down the line. And you find that your needs are different. The person you want to be with maybe now reflects who you are with how you see yourself. As your identity changes --
STANGER: Ok. Well, there`s a big break up in the news that happened today. And that`s Elin broke up with Tiger. Now, I`m personally proud of her. Because a lot people criticized her, she stayed for the money. Now it was like, get the hell out of there. I mean one cheating is one thing, a baker`s dozen is a whole other story. How do you feel about this though? Do you agree with this?
LAWRENCE: This was egregious. This wasn`t like he had an affair. It looked like he just screwed everything he possibly could. And he`s still doing it.
KERNER: Look at Tiger and look at people like John Edwards. They don`t end up breaking up because of the cheating itself. They end up breaking up because of all of the lies that come out.
STANGER: And getting caught.
KERNER: The inability to really be truthful.
(CROSSTALK)
LAWRENCE: That`s the one thing that Edwards and Tiger have in common. These are huge egos. And the fact that the women went into this relationship pretending like everything`s going to be great, I`m going to change this guy. You said it before.
STANGER: But you don`t know that Elin had a -- there`s a control issue there. I do astrology. They`re Capricorns, they like to keep everything hidden. But, you know, there`s Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt; there was cheating involved with that. We also have Sandra Bullock and Jesse James. That`s horrendous, too.
He actually has Cat Von D right now -- he likes --
(CROSSTALK)
But most guys didn`t know who he was --
I want to ask Ian this question. Most guys break up and they`re heartbroken for a day and they get back on the market by Tuesday. And they find their next girl.
Women, we lick our wounds. Is that the case you find with your patients?
KERNER: You know, I actually find that guys end up brooding a lot longer. When women leave a relationship or cheat or make a decision, they`re usually really out the door. They`ve tried to keep it together and they`re ready to have some sort of new romance or passion. I find a lot of guys -- guys may be able to have one-night stands easily. They may be able to compartmentalize between sex and emotion. But when they`re actually losing their partner and losing their spouse, they`re usually the ones that are blindsided.
STANGER: But don`t they get into relationships quicker? Statistics show it.
KERNER: Yes, I think that men do because, again, men are really able to compartmentalize between the sex and the emotion. And so they`re able to put themselves much more quickly into sexual situations and ultimately move into intimate situations.
STANGER: But that`s how they bond. Men bond through sex.
KERNER: Yes.
STANGER: Even though people say they don`t, they do, when they`re breaking up -- only when they`re breaking up.
KERNER: I agree with -- look, women are great at communicating. They`re great at hugging, holding hands. There`s all these outlets for communication. For men, sex really is one of the primary ways that a guy expresses emotions.
STANGER: And you think that`s 55 percent, 60 percent, 70 percent -- what is it for a man having sex with a woman? Is it a lot? 100 percent?
KERNER: 100 percent in terms of what? The expression of --
STANGER: Look at the whole picture. How much percentage do they weigh on getting into a relationship with a many woman based on sex?
KERNER: I think infatuation, I think sexual attraction is huge. I think it`s --
STANGER: 70 percent?
KERNER: 75 percent.
STANGER: Yes. I was thinking it was 75 percent. That`s a lot. That is really --
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: Some men are more, you know --
STANGER: Yes.
DE LESSEPS: You know, some men are more into that, you know, than other men. Some think more with their heads.
KERNER: You know, all of that changes. Couples who, you know, were going at it like rabbits and just have so much sexual attraction, there are over 40 million Americans who are stuck in a sex rut today. I think sex ruts are epidemic. You can be a couple who is completely connected and honestly, with Tiger and Elin, they were also new parents. They had two kids under the age of 5. We don`t really know what was happening inside their bedroom as well. We don`t know what happened to their sex life. But I do have to say, regardless of all the porn and addiction and what not, when you stop having sex, when you get into a rut, relationships become vulnerable.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: So what do you do about that?
PATTI STANGER: Yes, what do you do? Do you go get Tantra classes, what?
KERNER: Well, you can go. Sure, go ahead and take some Tantra classes. I tell every couple that you should have sex at least once a week. And some couples are like that`s way too much.
STANGER: Ok, all right, thanks, everyone. We`ll be back in a moment with that note. Thanks, Ian.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) STANGER: So what happens after a breakup? Well, instead of eating your weight in ice cream and watching lifetime movies until your eyes bleed, get on with your life.
Here with me to talk about how to do that is Catherine Hickland, actress and author of "The 30-Day Heartbreak Cure"; Stephanie Dolgoff author of "My Formerly Hot Life"; and Brooke Burke, host of TV lands "She`s Got the Look".
Ok so let`s talk about this. How do you get over a breakup?
Catherine, tell me how you get over a breakup. You say that after a four-year relationship, you have a 30-day plan. What`s the plan?
CATHERINE HICKLAND, AUTHOR, "THE 30 DAY HEARTBREAK CURE": Well, actually the plan can even go faster than that. It`s just that is 30 days is a safe bet. First of all it takes 21 days to break a habit and honestly, most people that break up are addicted to some drama that was going on in there. I work on the mind/body connection. And the mind/body connection works really quick when you get it. And that is what my book talks about.
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: So is it hypnosis? But is it -- I mean, you`ve got to have like -- I mean, I just broke up with someone, so I want to know how do I get over? Is it hypnosis, do I need to meditate? What do I need to do? What`s the specific? Give me details?
HICKLAND: Ok. Well, first of all, your -- your body and emotions will follow what your mind tells it to do. So you have to get your mind on board first. And it is really not hypnosis, although I am a hypnotist and I wrote my book with the principles of hypnosis. What it really is about is getting your mind wrapped around the fact that you are super, super good all on your own. That if something wasn`t working out, there`s somebody better waiting for you.
But you just have to be -- get yourself mentally ready --
STANGER: That`s not going to stop you from being addicted to sex. I`m sorry, oxytocin bonding is a fact of nature. Brooke, how long should you start dating someone after you broke up with someone?
BROOKE BURKE, HOST, "SHE`S GOT THE LOOK": well, you know, that`s -- that`s a tough question. I mean, I`ve been through my share of separations, I think raising a blended family for me is an ongoing challenge. But it really depends on the situation.
Going back to what Catherine said I think, you also have to define about what you want and what you don`t want. And you know a lot of that is about not being guilty and feeling good about your decisions and being strong enough to move on when you need to. Yet that whole dating thing afterwards, it`s a very individual decision, I think.
STANGER: Well, when you look like you, I don`t think you have a problem. But Stephanie, you wrote a book --
STEPHANIE DOLGOFF, AUTHOR OF "MY FORMERLY HOT LIFE": But when you look like me.
STANGER: Yes, ok Stephanie when you -- you wrote a book about my formerly kind of hot life.
DOLGOFF: Yes.
STANGER: Ok and I read part of your book. And in the book it said that you realized you weren`t hot any more when you were on the subway and a guy asked you for the time.
DOLGOFF: Right, well, that was one of the many signs.
STANGER: But why would that be a pivotal moment in your life, you realize you`re not hot anymore. You`re a very attractive woman.
DOLGOFF: Well, -- well, thank you very much. It`s actually, it`s not -- I`m not saying that older women can`t be hot. It`s -- it`s more that -- you step over into this other category of women when you reach a certain age and it`s a different kind of hot. And that took a little while for me to realize --
STANGER: So when you -- are you saying you wanted to tap the 25-year- olds and now you`re 42 and you can`t do that anymore like what is --
DOLGOFF: Not to me, I`m actually married. So I haven`t had a breakup in a very long time. No, what I`m saying is that -- that adjustment from being treated as a beautiful young woman which young women generally are whether or not they`re -- you know, they`re beautiful, step over to the next line to be an older woman. And the world treats you kind of differently. And that can be a little bit of a shock.
STANGER: But don`t you think if you`re hot and you`re in your 40s, you should be looking at men in their 50s and 60s who think you`re really hot as opposed to like 30s.
DOLGOFF: Well sure, I`m not looking at anyone. So I`m married.
STANGER: But why did you write the book?
DOLGOFF: Well, the book is not about breaking up. The book is about the moment that realize that you`re not young anymore and that --
STANGER: So what does the book tell me to do? I don`t want to read a book that makes me whine and complain. I want to read a book that`s positive like what Catherine did.
DOLGOFF: The book is absolutely positive. The book is about how when -- when we`re a little older than -- that you think you can be happy. People think you can only be happy when you`re young. You`re young, that`s the time of your life. But actually what I found out when I crossed over, is that this age is much more happy-making than anything I experienced when I was young. And I would imagine that`s true for dating as well. I am not dating anyone, being married and all, but the women I spoke to who are single and who are recently divorced say that their lives are so rich and full and that they have so much going on, that it`s -- it`s more like wanting a partner and not needing a partner.
And I think that`s a very n empowering position to come from. And I think that`s a little what Catherine was saying about -- about realizing that you`re ok without expressing yourself as person.
STANGER: Yes but when there`s Christmases and there`s birthdays and there`s vacations and holidays like, people get lonely. Catherine, you have a trick that you teach women to do to get over the negative relationship. What`s that trick?
HICKLAND: Well, I am a very, very big proponent of -- because we tend to romanticize things when we break up, do we not? We think about all the good stuff. And so the trick really is about for every good thought you have, you`re going to have a thought of reality which is what really something that he did that was annoying.
STANGER: Which is why you broke up in the first place.
(CROSSTALK) HICKLAND: Which is why you broke up in the first place.
STANGER: Right.
HICKLAND: But you know, Patti, you said something, you said, you know, that`s not going to help if you`re addicted to sex.
STANGER: Right.
HICKLAND: Which I thought was really interesting Patti, because I didn`t say anything about sex.
STANGER: Yes but in order -- with most -- most people in relationships stay together because of the sex, the glue. That`s the glue. HICKLAND: Yes, well --
STANGER: And if the glue is bad, they leave, and if the glue is good, no matter how toxic your finances could go, emotions can go, they stay.
HICKLAND: I know about that. STANGER: Oh please.
DOLGOFF: I think people say and some people do stay in --
STANGER: I`m a matchmaker, I know this stuff.
HICKLAND: You know what? And may I just say --
STANGER: What`s it, Catherine?
HICKLAND: I love that what you do, Patti. And I love the way that you do it. And I love that you can be very tough. I`m a bit of a softer side of you. But I will say that that`s an interesting thing, that sex and that good sex in a bad relationship -- that -- that is a bad drug, let me tell you. And I don`t come across it personally. If you make me mad, that is not going to happen, you know what I mean?
STANGER: Yes but if there`s makeup sex. Brooke, have you had makeup sex?
BURKE: I`ve had lots of makeup sex. STANGER: I had a feeling.
BURKE: I`ve had bad sex in a good relationship and good sex in a bad relationship. So I think -- I think the key is a good relationship with a lot of great sex, right?
STANGER: That`s what we`re all looking for. How did you, how did you -- you had a very public breakup with Garth, right? And he`s a very prominent plastic surgeon in L.A. How did you get over this? I know Dave is amazing. But how did you get over it, how did you find the right guy? What did you do?
BURKE: It`s really tough. I mean, the great thing about Garth and I is we had sort of that cookie cutter divorce that was with a lot of respect and we were both really committed to raising our children together. So that part was really positive.
I`ve known David since I was 22 years old. So we had a lot of history. It was the one of those situations where it was the right guy at the wrong time. And it took a very long period of time for us to be apart from each other to realize that we belong together.
STANGER: Ok, you know hold that thought we`re going to be back in a moment to continue this discussion. I want to hear about your ex, too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STANGER: I`m back with my panel.
Ok. Stephanie, in your book, you end up marrying your ex-boyfriend. Do you think that`s settling?
DOLGOFF: Well, I met him when I was in my 20s. STANGER: Like Brooke.
DOLGOFF: Then I re-met him when I had was in my 30s. Both of us had matured enormously. We always liked each other, we just were not ready to be in a relationship. It was by no means settling in my case.
We had the click, then we had a long time as friends, then we took a fresh look at each other when we were 34. So it made perfect sense.
STANGER: Is it like -- did it feel like a new relationship --
DOLGOFF: Totally new relationship. We only went on like six dates when we first met. We met on the subway, actually. It was all very sweet and romantic, but it was an anecdote. It wasn`t meant to be a relationship until much later and then we were both at a different place in our lives so it was kind of perfect.
STANGER: Do you think it`s a good idea to go back to your ex- boyfriends and make an inventory and see who the good ones were?
DOLGOFF: You know what? I do. It`s kinds of like recycling. Everyone complains how there`s no good men, especially in New York City. I think it`s another --
STANGER: Well, there`s five -- you know, "Millionaire Matchmaker" this season you`re going to see in October, there are five women to one guy. What do you do? You date in the suburbs.
DOLGOFF: You date in the subway, hang out in the airport, get them off the plane before they --
STANGER: Exactly. You attack them before they get jaded and they hit the meat packing district.
BURKE: You know what, Stephanie, I love what you`re saying in your book because one of the things that impressed me the most working on "She`s Got the Look" was there were some challenges that contestants had to do. These were like 35, 40, 55-year-old women. What I was trying to tell them is don`t try to hold on to that space that you were in in your 20s. You really have to tap into your confidence as a mature woman.
DOLGOFF: That`s exactly --
Burke: And that`s to be the best that you can be at the age that you are. That`s the whole concept behind the show was that beauty knows no age. And it was about being beautiful and being your best at every age. Last season, there was a 72-year-old woman who was amazing, who was competing against 35-year-old women. Honestly, this season a 55-year-old woman blew our socks off.
HICKLAND: That`s the thing.
BURKE: I was really on them about don`t try to be the 20-year-old anymore.
STANGER: Well, isn`t that confidence Catherine that you talk about, confidence and kind of like downloading the computer with the confidence factor. Isn`t that the stuff you do?
HICKLAND: You cannot fool people. If you are beautiful and seemingly have it all together and you have no confidence, that is what people are going to feel. It is a strong energy we put off. One thing about getting older that`s so absolutely awesome is that we get a sense of ourselves, we get a sense of what we want, we get a sense of our own personal power, which I know is a term that`s overused, but it`s true. Honestly, I think that`s what set off that whole cougar movement because it really is something that`s a powerful attraction when a person knows who they are.
BURKE: I totally agree with you.
DOLGOFF: I would agree with the part about the confidence. Absolutely. That`s what the book is about. It`s about how much more confident we are when we`re older, particularly in romantic matters. But the term cougar bums me out.
STANGER: Why does it bum you out?
HICKLAND: Absolutely.
DOLGOFF: Because it implies that a woman who is a little bit older who enjoys sex and who enjoys men, there`s something animalistic and weird about her. You have to call her an animal? She can`t just be a woman?
STANGER: I don`t get it that way at all.
DOLGOFF: I find it predatory. What is that?
STANGER: I don`t agree with you. I think it`s just an animal instinct that we all are out for prey. Well, I want to thank you guys. You can catch Brooke Burke on TV Land`s "She`s Got the Look", premiering Wednesday at 10:00 p.m.
Up next, what happens when the person you`re married to becomes a monster? We`ll find out in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STANGER: Good marriages are built on love, trust and honesty, but imagine if the man you love turns out to be a liar, cheat, or, worse yet, a criminal. For the women featured on investigation discovery`s new show "WHO THE (BLEEP) DID I MARRY" that was reality. With me now are three women on the show. Mary Jo Buttafuoco who is also the author of "Getting it Through My Thick Skull." Jeanne Trantel who wrote "The Sky is Blessings," and Barbara Mastromarino. Welcome girls to the panel, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Hi.
STANGER: Hi So Mary Jo, tell me a little bit about your story. You`re pretty much the most infamous person in New York that we had a situation where your husband is cheating, next day you open the door and there`s Amy Fisher is there and she shoots you. She was 17 at the time?
MARY JO BUTTAFUOCO, "WHO THE (BLEEP) DID I MARRY?": At the time she was 17. You could, you know, knocked me over with a feather. This girl came to my house. I was a Long Island housewife, a mom raising a family, thought everything in my life was very good. I`d been married for 15 years. And this girl comes to my house, I`m in the backyard. I answer the door. And she tells me that her name is Ann Marie and that her little sister is having an affair with my husband.
STANGER: Oh so she lied.
BUTTAFUOCO: Yes. She lied. And from there, I questioned her. We were talking for about a minute and a half. It was really uneventful as far as the things I was asking her. She was a little nervous, but I didn`t understand why. I had no fear. I felt no -- anything was going to happen to me, anything was coming up. And after this brief conversation, I said to her, well, look, I don`t know what you want me to tell you. I`m going to go inside and call Joe and tell him you came by. And I literally said to her, thanks for coming by. And I turned my head to the right. And that was the end of it. It was gone, it was over.
STANGER: She shot you out of the blue, in cold blood, hit the target and that was that and ran away.
BUTTAFUOCO: Absolutely. And I never saw a gun. She never threatened me with a gun. It obviously was in her pocket. And when I turned -- in the instant it took me to turn my head to the right and get my hand on the door, that gun came out and was pointed at my head and she pulled the trigger and right into the side of me.
STANGER: Now did you know that he was having an affair? Was there any indication? You guys were high school sweethearts. You must have known he had a roving eye, he liked looking at woman. What was the story there?
BUTTAFUACO: Joey was a very charismatic fun guy. I mean everybody loved him. The men loved him, the women loved him, the children loved him. I had no idea. If he did this and according to timeline that it happened maybe ten months earlier this affair that he had. It was over and I had no idea that no clue. He was that good, he was that good of a liar.
STANGER: I mean nobody called your house. Women didn`t look at you in the grocery store. I mean you`re in a small town. I mean I can`t believe that you didn`t know anything.
BUTTAFUOCO: Not only did I not know anything, our families didn`t know anything. Our friends didn`t know anything. I`ve been told since I wrote this book, I`ve talked to many, many of my old friends and neighbor. And every single one of them have said he fooled all of us.
STANGER: Really?
BUTTAFUOCO: He was that good, yes.
STANGER: Now, for instance, when this situation happened, he told you that he wasn`t having an affair with Amy. Did you believe him?
BUTTAFUOCO: Well you know a girl comes to your house and tries to blow your head off. She`s obviously a little crazy, you know? And then when he said to me, of course I knew her. I fixed her car. My father-in- law knew her, my brother-in-law knew her. This was a family auto body business. Everybody saw her and knew who she was. And he just claimed she must have had an infatuation with him and it was one of these like fatal attractions where she wanted him. It made sense at the time because everything Amy had said to me was a lie, so it was easier to believe him because I realized everything she said to me on that stoop was a lie and she pulled a gun and shot me in the head. This is not a person that you would say, gee, you know maybe she`s making some sense here.
STANGER: How did you find out it was true?
BUTTAFUOCO: Well, you know what? I never -- he never told me. To this day he has never told me. It`s just as the years went by and he did more and more things and got arrested for more things and the lies just would build up for one thing or another --
STANGER: Well that`s something that Jeanne understands because Jeanne Your husband was a bank robber.
JEANNE TRANTEL, "WHO THE (BLEEP) DID I MARRY": Yes.
STANGER: OK now this story blew my mind. Your husband puts on a suit every day, goes to work, you think he`s going to like a seat on the exchange and life is great. And one day you get a call he`s arrested for bank robbing. How is that possible?
TRANTEL: I didn`t believe it. I was shocked.
STANGER: But I mean how does that play out? For instance like you never met a co-worker or a company picnic or a boss from his company?
TRANTEL: You know we did it for five months and he pretended that he was working every day. So no, I had no idea.
STANGER: You had no idea.
TRANTEL: He woke up every day, I made his lunch. He called me.
STANGER: Now why did he do this? What was the reason? Did he lose his job, what was the story there.
TRANTEL: He lost his job.
STANGER: So the economy`s tanking and he didn`t have any money. And he goes up - now how did he get away with it in this technological age. I mean that`s kind of weird. Nobody ever caught him robbing the bank?
TRANTEL: No. He got away with it for -- he started robbing a bank in the end of June, and he got caught in --
STANGER: How many banks did he rob?
TRANTEL: Eleven.
STANGER: Eleven, so 11, how did he get caught on the 11th one?
TRANTEL: He had a prints. I had a letter that he wrote and he got caught there.
STANGER: Interesting, now Barbara, your story is the most unusual. Because this is a complicated story. You were Ken and Barbie in little suburbia. Had the dream life, your husband`s hot, you have kids. He`s an oral surgeon, right? And then one day you get a call that he`s face down in the O.R., while a patient`s under anesthesia, he has a Demerol addiction, he cleans himself up, loses his medical license and the next thing you know he`s buying a body tissue selling company. Is that correct? OK, then what happened?
BARBRA MASTROMARINO, "WHO THE (BLEEP) DID I MARRY": After he got in trouble?
STANGER: After he got the body tissue company and then what did you find out later?
MASTROMARINO: Yes, well I came to find out as everyone else did that he was guilty, but at first he kept giving us stories.
STANGER: Guilty of what?
MASTROMARINO: Guilty for cutting bodies for tissues.
STANGER: He`s selling body parts.
MASTROMARINO: Yes.
STANGER: And they are stolen body parts. Correct?
MASTROMARINO: Yes. There were no consent.
STANGER: And you had no idea this was going on considering he was an addict. He had lied before. MASTROMARINO: He had risen from the ashes. After -- he went through four recoveries - well excuse me, four rehabs in one year. And he came out of it after a three-month rehab. And he was so together. He was this new man starting and starting a new business.
STANGER: How long did the new man last for? Like a year, two years, six months?
MASTROMARINO: A couple years, couple of years. STANGER: So he`s pretty steady then.
MASTROMARINO: Yes and it -
STANGER: Now one of the situations that you find out is one night you come home, OK, he doesn`t come home from work. You get in your car, you go out looking for him with the two kids in the car. And you find out that there`s a roadblock, please are there, not only has he been doing this illegal thing, he`s cheating on you. There`s a woman in the car.
MASTROMARINO: No, that happened during the drug days.
STANGER: Oh so that was a drug incident.
MASTROMARINO: Yes, yes.
STANGER: Oh OK.
MASTROMARINO: Finding him with another woman -
STANGER: So he had cheated before you and you took him back. Why did you take him back?
MASTROMARINO: Everybody needs a second chance. When you have a husband that you love and he`s swearing love to you till his dying day --
STANGER: OK, OK.. Great. Mary Jo, when this situation went down and you found out that he had lied to you and you were very ill when this happened. Did you take him back?
BUTTAFUOCO: Oh, after I was shot, I was in no shape to do anything or go anywhere. I had two little kids who were at home that were traumatized. Their home was a crime scene. This person did this at their house. He had me convinced that she`s crazy and he`s not. And he got me when I was at my most vulnerable. I was so sick. I had surgeries. I became addicted to the pain medication over the years.
STANGER: Wow.
BUTTAFUOCO: You just -- it`s just where are you going to do, what are you going to do? And he`d just -- we`d have these pillow talks where I would go to him, why did she do this? And he would go, I don`t know. She`s crazy.
STANGER: OK, hold that thought. We are going to be back with our panel and get further into this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did it, he ran out of money, he didn`t know where to go, he was in fear, he was stuck, we were losing our house, and he thought to himself, one day I have to rob a bank. And that`s what he did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STANGER: I`m back with my panel from the show "WHO THE (BLEEP) DID I MARRY." and joining us is Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Welcome. So these women have gone through horrendous ordeal. How do you get back on the horse and trust men again?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTERAPIST: Well, first of all, there are, as you know, lots of really great guys out there. And you have to really ask yourself what made you vulnerable to this kind of person --
STANGER: Do you think it`s desperation?
LUDWIG: I think in some cases it can be. I don`t know if it was in these women`s cases. In some cases, it`s a naivete about romantic relationships. But if you`re afraid to be alone and you can`t be alone --
STANGER: Is that the common denominator that they`re afraid to be alone. People settle when they know that they`ve been wronged.
LUDWIG: I don`t think that that is the case across the board, although we do live in a world where it`s very much about couples. And if you`re not part of a couple, as a woman, it`s very hard to feel successful because we define ourselves by relationships.
BUTTAFUOCO: Hey Robi, let me butt in.
LUDWIG: Hi, sure, good to see you.
BUTTAFUOCO: Listen, real fast, in my case, I was a teenager. I was a teenager, I was 17, I was in high school. I wasn`t desperate, I wasn`t lonely. It was just -- it just evolved into this. And I don`t know if that has anything to do with it.
LUDWIG: Right, in your case, it would be romantic naivete. It was a high school sweetheart. What do we know when we`re in high school? We really don`t know a lot. And it`s very possible that your husband or ex- husband got worse as time went on.
BUTTAFUOCO: Absolutely.
LUDWIG: I mean, sometimes, you know, these people who women marry are not really as bad at the beginning. Maybe there`s a history --
STANGER: And how do you vet somebody like that?
LUDWIG: You really need to get to know somebody. Here are the things that women need to ask. They need to ask about previous relationships. What were your other --
STANGER: Nobody`s going to come there and tell you that they`ve cheated and done terrible things. LUDWIG: You have to get a sense over time. What was their family background like? Do they have a drug addiction? What`s their mental health history.
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: But the family background owned the body shop and they were wonderful people.
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: And in some cases -- and here`s the sad part. In some cases you really don`t know until you get to know a person. And --
STANGER: But don`t you think in Barbra`s case she took him back after he had been on drugs, he had cheated.
MASTROMARINO: But he was absolutely perfect as far as his family, his values, how we lived our lives, father, as a husband.
LUDWIG: And in defense of you, isn`t that what we`re taught as women, you know that you want to give a spouse a second chance and maybe if you`re a good enough wife, you can help them get past the drug addiction.
STANGER: So you are going to fix him.
MASTROMARINO: You are going to fix them.
LUDWIG: When you`re married and you take your vows, whoever falls a little, you help them up, if you`re married, that`s what you do.
STANGER: I have to be honest with you, in my work, I see people do this all the time. There are criminals in the company every now and then and I have to kick them out because they lie on their paperwork.
LUDWIG: Yes.
STANGER: And when we do background checks. And most types the wives stay with them because of the grandiose lifestyle. You have money, you have got privilege, you`re kids are going to good schools. You are going on vacation and you`re getting that expensive dress every so often. And they stay because of money.
LUDWIG: And they make a deal with the devil.
STANGER: Right exactly.
LUDWIG: You know what I mean and that`s what they`re choosing.
TRANTEL: I don`t view my story at all that way. MASTROMARINO: I stay with him through the highest and the lowest, where we had nothing. And I really thought I was going to be out --
STANGER: But then are you addicted, are you addicted? Because that`s the question, are they addicted to these men? Can you break an addiction like this?
LUDWIG: You absolutely can. If there`s enough pain, you can break an addiction. If you want to break the addiction, you can break the addiction. I think also in some cases it`s based on what your family history is like. It sets the scenes for what we`re attracted to and what is familiar to us. So -- but you have to work on looking for certain characteristics when you`re choosing a partner. Using a combination of your head and your heart. Realizing somebody who wants to spend 24/7 with you isn`t necessarily a good thing.
STANGER: Do you both have closure from your men where you asked them why? Did you Barbra?
TRANTEL: Did I ask him -
STANGER: Why did he do this? Did you ever have closure into where he gave you the honest answer. You know there`s always a why. Did he give you the why?
TRANTEL: As far as the crime?
STANGER: The whole thing. From the beginning to end, why did he act this way?
TRANTEL: As far as the affairs, he had no answer. He said it was for business. He always had an excuse. STANGER: OK that`s a good one.
MASTROMARINO: He`s a sociopath as far as most everything --
STANGER: Mary Jo, do you think that Joey`s a sociopath?
BUTTAFUOCO: Absolutely, he absolutely is. That`s just it. They give you answers, reasons, excuses. They never can say to you I was wrong, I`m sorry.
STANGER: So no conscience.
TRANTEL: Very quick on their feet.
BUTTAFUOCO: Oh, yes.
LUDWIG: That`s another sign, too. Mary Jo, I`m sure you`ll agree with me here, somebody who constantly blames everybody else for their problems. But it`s everybody else`s fault. They don`t take responsibility at all for their life.
STANGER: But were there little things along the way that he never apologized to you, Mary Jo, during the course of your courtship?
BUTTAFUOCO: I look back now and there`s no simple answer, as everybody knows. I was in the Joey vortex. It`s everybody else, everybody`s wrong, he`s right, poor him. You know help me, love me, be my buddy, be my friend. That`s what we do as wives. We`re there to support them.
LUDWIG: And that`s what we`re trained to do. Also in some cases the sociopath, the narcissist, very charming, more likable than sometimes your regular guy. Because that`s what they do. They seduce -- STANGER: Do you believe your husband was a sociopath?
TRANTEL: That`s what I wanted to say. I was married to him for nine years. To tell you the truth, I was shocked with this.
STANGER: Do you think you`re husband had a mental illness, though?
TRANTEL: I think he had a mental illness. I really think Steven more had a breakdown.
STANGER: Was he evaluated for bipolar or manic depression or anything like that.
TRANTEL: He hasn`t been but he probably should be.
LUDWIG: I mean that`s what it sounds like to me, that there was a mental breakdown, he panicked then did what was the path of least resistance which happen to be -
(CROSSTALK)
STANGER: Did he ever tell you why he didn`t tell you that he lost his job? Because that`s the pivotal moment, right.
TRANTEL: Yes that`s one thing I have to say I was so hurt by and so angry at him by because he didn`t give me a chance. He didn`t give me a choice at all. STANGER: And that`s an important thing.
LUDWIG: Well if he was mentally ill, he could have been paranoid and he could have assumed that his wife would have turned against him. I don`t know, of course, I don`t know your husband. But you know when somebody has a breakdown, who knows what`s going through their brain and their logic isn`t thinking - you know they aren`t really thinking properly.
TRANTEL: He was acting crazy. He was totally in fear and he was totally wrong for what he did. He just was not acting like anybody that was -- he was so abnormal at the time.
STANGER: But I think there`s clues along the way. So what are the clues that women should be looking for. And when they are dating someone or when they are married in this case.
LUDWIG: Well first of all, use your gut instinct. It`s there to protect you. So if you have --
STANGER: The woman`s intuition.
LUDWIG: Woman`s intuition. Don`t excuse it away. Don`t excuse poor behavior away. Don`t think that you can cure a man. Listen for his history. See how he interacts with you. You know, look at if there`s a drug addiction, mental illness, because those things can seriously influence how a person acts and behaves and can contribute to a second - you know living a second life.
TRANTEL: You know Stephen started to really get very quiet.
STANGER: Yes.
TRANTEL: And he lost his appetite. He stopped really, you know, caring about things. Like he stopped laughing. He just changed so much.
STANGER: I mean do you think he had a thought disorder? Was there schizophrenia in the family?
TRANTEL: There`s no schizophrenia in the family, no.
STANGER: All right, Mary Jo, do you feel that you can forgive Joey for this?
BUTTAFUOCA: Well, you have to forgive to move on with your life. I don`t -- between that and Amy Fisher, I`ve had to forgive these people for the hurt they`ve caused me and the anguish they`ve caused me or else I`d be stuck in this old anger and hate. And I`ve moved on with my life. I have a very good life now.
STANGER: And you`re dating someone now?
BUTTAFUOCO: well, I`ve been with him for eight years.
STANGER: That`s right, 8 years. So are you engaged? I heard you were engaged?
BUTTAFUOCA: Yes, we are engaged, we`re chronically engaged, we like to say.
STANGER: So why won`t you close the deal? What are the reasons?
BUTTAFUOCA: You know, I`ve been asked is it a psychological thing because you`ve been married and you got so hurt? I don`t know. At this stage and age in my life, it`s just not a priority. There`s really no reason.
LUDWIG: I just wanted to say, too, and I love who you`re engaged to, which you know, Mary Jo.
BUTTAFUOCA: Yes.
LUDWIG: I think, too, if somebody seems too good to be true, that also can be a danger sign because real people have real idiosyncrasies. And if somebody is really working hard to cover that --
STANGER: OK. Why don`t we hold that thought. We`ll be back in a moment with our panel and we`ll talk a little more about this.
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: Hello, hello, stay with us friends, we are seeking justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STANGER: I`m back with my panel. So Robi, how do you get back on the horse, as I said in the beginning of this segment, for these ladies to date? Because you`re single, you`re single, and these are beautiful women. They should be out there meeting hot men -
LUDWIG: Yes.
STANGER: That are nice and not criminals.
TRANTEL: Good people.
STANGER: Yes, good people. Have you guys dated since the ending of - -
BUTTAFUOCO: Yes.
MASTROMARINO: I even trusted somebody.
STANGER: OK and did it work out?
MASTROMARINO: For different reasons, it didn`t. STANGER: But he wasn`t a criminal. He was a nice guy, right?
MASTROMARINO: Heart of gold.
LUDWIG: I mean think the best thing women can do is take responsibility for their own dating life, and to figure out what really works for them. And you know, what their tendencies are. Maybe what you`re attracted to is not so healthy for you. So to you use a combination of your head and your heart to look at somebody who maybe is needy who wants to get into a relationship too quickly.
STANGER: Both your stories are infamous, right. You`ve been in the news, you`ve been in the news. How do you get over the fame factor because a guy goes, what`s wrong with her? She had in idiot husband or criminal husband what are you going to do about it?
LUDWIG: Just be open and honest. You know if you have nothing to hide, it`s less mysterious. I can just say I happened to be in a relationship with somebody who was not well and I came through that and now I`m open to a healthy relationship and it`s just part of my history. You know I think if you`re stuck there in your dating world and you`re using your dating life at a therapy session, that`s a problem, and what guy is going to want that.
STANGER: Now re both of you in therapy?
TRANTEL: I have been in therapy.
STANGER: What about you?
MASTROMARINO: Had been.
STANGER: Do you think it`s wise for them to be in therapy on a regular basis when they`re dating?
LUDWIG: If they feel they need it. It is not a must, but certainly if they think that it helps them to be more aware of what`s good for them, then why not? Therapy is always great.
STANGER: Mary Jo, are you in therapy or did you go to therapy when the incident happened?
BUTTAFUOCO: I did a long time ago. I really believe the first thing you have to do, girls, is forgive yourself. You did the best you could. We did the best we could.
STANGER: Good advice.
BUTTAFUOCO: We`re good people, honest people and decent people. And that`s almost what got us in trouble because we did believe in these people because we are good, honest, decent people. We can`t believe anybody would do this, especially the people we live with and had children with.
STANGER: So how do you trust the new guy? I mean you were with him eight years, that`s a long time.
BUTTAFUOCO: Well I was on my own for a long year. After Joe and I got divorced, I was alone for two and a half years. And I went on a what does Mary Jo want quest and I went back to school and I did everything for me and I was very introspective and I did go to therapy. And then when I did meet this man, I knew what I didn`t want any more. I would rather have been alone for the rest of my life than go back to that. And because I was healthy mentally, I found somebody who was also healthy mentally.
STANGER: Yes, that`s a criteria.
LUDWIG: Which is a great point. The healthier you are as a person, the healthier person you will attract.
BUTTAFUOCO: Absolutely.
LUDWIG: And you won`t be attracted to somebody who is sick anymore because they just won`t do it for you.
BUTTAFUOCO: That`s right.
LUDWIG: So that`s another way to attract a healthy, good partner, be healthy yourself.
STANGER: And not be seduced by the fame, the flash and the fun. You know what I`m saying, guy comes in with lots of money and lots of bank, and take you here and there, check it out, check his credit out, check out if you know the people.
BUTTAFUOCO: Nowadays, you can do that because you had the internet. Eighteen years ago when I got shot, there was no such thing.
STANGER: OK. Great. Well I want to thank you for joining me tonight. "WHO THE BLEEP DO I MARRY" premieres Wednesdays at 10:00 on Investigations Discovery. I`m Patti Stanger. Good night everybody thanks for coming in. Bye Joy.
END
