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Joy Behar Page
Reality Nightmares; False Memories; Interview With Phil Collins
Aired September 29, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight is the first anniversary of my show. And I have so many people to thank; the network, the producers, but most importantly, I`d like to thank all the little people who make this show what it is.
CREW: Oh.
BEHAR: No, not you guys; Kate Gosselin, Snooki, the octo-mom and, of course my best friend, Sarah Palin. Thank you so much, all of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW a former contestant on "Kitchen Nightmares" commits suicide. The husband from polygamist reality show, "Sister Wives" faces felony charges.
Reality TV is one of the most popular forms of entertainment but is it ruining lives?
And music legend, Phil Collins talks about his new album and his strange obsession with Texas.
Plus, to celebrate the show`s one year anniversary, Joy looks back at some of her favorite moments, craziest jokes and biggest guests.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: We all love reality TV and train wrecks so when the host of Australia`s Next Top Model accidentally crowned the wrong winner, the video obviously went viral. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s you, Kelsey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So sorry. Oh my God. Oh, I don`t know what to say. This is not -- this is a complete accident. I`m so sorry. It`s Amanda. I`m so sorry. It was fed to me wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s all right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s ok.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what happens when you have live TV, folks. I`m so sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is insane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OMG, I could puke. That was like the Bush election fiasco except this was in Australia with models and a lot less crying.
Here with me now to discuss the perils of reality TV is Marc Lamont Hill, cultural anthropologist; Omarosa, reality TV star and producer; and Bonnie Fuller, president and editor-in-chief of hollywoodlife.com. How awkward is that video?
MARC LAMONT HILL, CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGIST: Oh my God. It`s humiliating. But the good thing is her name will probably be remembered more now by being the wrong name called than if she had actually just won outright.
BEHAR: Yes.
BONNIE FULLER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COME: In fact, she is getting the fruits of being misidentified. She`s getting a trip to New York. She`s getting $25,000. So, I mean, there is some good.
BEHAR: And tell me who you said she -- the one who announced it --
FULLER: That`s right. The announcer was Sara Murdoch and she`s a former model and she happens to be Rupert Murdoch`s daughter-in-law.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. That`s an interesting little fact. Omarosa, she`s probably going to be more famous, like they say right? This is a good thing for her.
OMAROSA MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH, REALITY TV STAR: Absolutely. It`s called taking lemons and making lemonade. Sometimes on reality TV, any time you can make a significant moment for people to remember you -- and this will be remembered for a very long time -- then you will come out on top.
BEHAR: Ok. I`ll tell you, she`s given $20,000 and a trip to New York. So all`s well that ends well.
HILL: That`s not bad at all. It`s not bad at all. It`s fun. There will be conspiracy theories. There will be spoof commercials. This is way better than winning, I`m telling you.
FULLER: She`ll probably get more magazine covers in Australia and around the world because of this.
BEHAR: And public humiliation is what these reality shows are all about. Now, I`d like to really switch gears because I want to talk about something serious that happened.
A former contestant on Fox`s "Kitchen Nightmares", Joe Cerniglia, killed himself on Friday. Here he is on the show in 2007.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE CERNIGLIA, FORMER CONSTESTANT, "KITCHEN NIGHTMARES": It`s everything to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think you could continue like this for what, six more months?
CERNIGLIA: About that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that`s pushing it. Your business is about to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) swim down the Hudson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now Cerniglia had a host of personal problems but questions have been raised whether there`s any link between his suicide and appearing on a reality show. What do you think about that? They`re making a connection.
HILL: There might be a connection but it`s not a causal one. It`s not like going on a reality show suddenly makes you want to kill yourself. If anything, I think a certain kind of person goes on these types of reality shows, that`s what it`s all about. Everybody is not the same and stable and people would choose some of this stuff had issues. We know he had issues anyway, I mean, going into this.
BEHAR: He was deep in debt, he was separated, had a mistress, had drug problems. I think that`s more to the point of possible suicide.
FULLER: And I don`t know that he had all those problems when he went on the show. But I have to agree, I think it`s a certainly personality, maybe a very needy personality is going on the show. They want attention.
And here he is, three years later. He may be running his business but he`s got issues. Why else would he be having -- he was arrested for cocaine possession. He had a mistress.
BEHAR: Omarosa, you were on a reality show. Does that relate to you at all?
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Being the only the person on the show that`s actually been on a reality show, I can absolutely say that when you say there are certain personality types, it`s apples and oranges. Different reality shows draw different personality.
On "The Apprentice" you get type A personalities. On "American Idol" you get artists. When you get this "Kitchen Nightmares", you get chefs who are trying to survive and stay afloat. And this guy actually may have gone on the show to save his business and this may have been the trigger to push him over the top.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Well, that`s the point I was making. Like a said, certain types go on certain types of shows.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: But you shouldn`t group them all together. That`s a danger.
HILL: No, I`m not -- I`m not grouping them. I`m saying certain types of shows draw certain types of people. You wouldn`t do that. You`re a very different type of person.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well she`s probably -- correct me if I`m wrong Omarosa. I think that you were interested in a career, as a career move. Am I right?
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Absolutely. I wanted to be the CEO of one of Donald Trump`s companies. That doesn`t make me crazy or want me to jump off a bridge. It makes you ambitious. That`s the type of personality that goes on "The Apprentice."
FULLER: But this guy was ambitious too. He had problems. And he did thank Gordon Ramsay afterward. He said Gordon actually helped him put his business straight and turn it into a success. He gave him very constructive advice.
HILL: The only problem is this is the second person to die under Gordon`s watch. Now if there`s a third, then we have to start asking some questions.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, yes. Rachel Brown, another chef, shot herself in 2006. I mean kind of weird, they were both on Ramsay`s show. It`s just a weird coincidence, I think.
HILL: Yes, I think it`s a coincidence.
BEHAR: And sad one, very sad.
But Ramsay has responded. He says, quote, "Joe was a brilliant chef and our thoughts go out to his family, friends and staff. Do you think he`s going to tone down the rhetoric?
FULLER: No, absolutely not. NO. Not at all. He has -- this is his signature. He`s known for this. The people that go on his shows know that this is the Gordon Ramsay they`re going to get. And I mean there`s numerous, numerous other contestants who have not committed suicide. I do agree that I think it`s coincidental.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: I think it`s important to note that the audience has an appetite for this type of personality on reality TV. They want the Gordon Ramsay who`s going to be in your face yelling and screaming. It`s entertainment.
BEHAR: Well, to that point, MTV`s "Real World", they put on former drug addicts and people who cut themselves, which is such a weird, fetishy, kind of crazy behavior, alcoholics. To the point, are they picking unstable people? That`s what you were saying before? On purpose.
FULLER: Well, I think -- yes. Shows like that are picking people who are unstable or who suffer from particularly psychological ailments because I think in many cases they`re trying to help -- the whole show is about trying to help these people.
HILL: No. I don`t think it`s about -- I think it`s trying to get ratings by having typecasted people. There`s the angry black guy -- there`s the angry black guy, there`s the drunk white guy, there`s the gay guy, there`s the white girl who gets drunk and sleeps with everybody. They`re typecasted people, that`s what this is about. It`s not about helping them.
(CROSSTALK)
FULLER: Ok. But what about celebrity rehab and addiction? That is a --
HILL: Ok. That`s a better example. That`s a better example. But like "Real World" and shows like that, it`s all about the spectacle.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Well, Joy, there used to be a time when psychological evaluation was taking place on reality TV. When I went through "The Apprentice" screening we had a battery of psychological tests that we had to take. And I`m seeing less and less of that.
I`ve been on 30 reality shows. I`ve only been screened for about three or four of them. I`m hoping that these shows will do more of that to make sure people aren`t pushed over the edge.
BEHAR: She got a very bad rap, I think -- bad reputation after "The Apprentice", right Omarosa?
HILL: Omarosa got a bad rap because she stood up for herself and moved with dignity. A lot of these shows, it`s not about dignity anymore because there`s so many of them and the people are fighting for a narrow slice of pie.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Thank you.
HILL: The shows just keep getting lower and lower and lower. They don`t give a battery of psychological tests.
BEHAR: No.
HILL: Can you touch your ankles? Can you grab --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, that`s true. But people thought you were bitchy, Omarosa. Did that bother you?
FULLER: I think it made had her career.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Well, I think that women -- I think women who - - in business who speak up for themselves and were strong and assertive will get labeled. I got labeled. But you know what? I took it and made a career out of being a strong woman and I make no apologies for that.
FULLER: I think Omarosa, you absolutely took it and you turned it to your success. I think that that label of being strong was actually admired by a lot of people who saw you on the show. I remember thinking, hey, you go girl, when I saw you there.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Thank you for that.
BEHAR: Now, the other reality show, and I interviewed them a couple of weeks ago, "Sister Wives". It`s about the polygamous family in Utah. I mean now they`re being - they`re under investigation because they put their lifestyle on television.
HILL: Right.
BEHAR: The minute you do that, you`re opening the door. But they had to see this coming. Right, Bonnie?
FULLER: They said they did see it coming. They issued a statement saying that they were well aware this could happen. However, they thought that the benefits of exposing their family to this -- I don`t quite get that at all. I think that -- I mean, I don`t understand why you would want to expose your children and your wives.
HILL: It`s called a check. A big wad of sweaty money is what happens.
FULLER: They`re part of a sect too. Don`t you think they wanted to publicize what they do?
HILL: No, they want a check.
FULLER: Like they`re advocates.
(CROSSTALK)
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: I agree.
HILL: What is it? Polygamy is a third degree felony in Utah. It`s punishable by I think $50,000 fine, probably no jail time. You know how much money they`re going to get for being polygamous? They don`t care.
It`s not about sect, it`s not about religions. You are a nice person --
FULLER: That`s right, he`s got 16 children to support.
HILL: Exactly.
FULLER: So I think you`ve got a point.
HILL: They`ve got four baby and mamas and half a million dollars. So this is -- it`s about money.
FULLER: But I do think that they are advocating for this kind of lifestyle.
HILL: Right.
FULLER: I think that they are fanatics.
HILL: But the way to advocate for a lifestyle --
BEHAR: They seem to love it.
HILL: -- is not go reality TV. That doesn`t want to make people do this, you know, anymore than "Real World" --
(CROSSTALK)
MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH: Well, sometimes you can exploit this platform - - sometimes you can exploit this platform. You can utilize it to force their own agenda or push a message or in this case push a lifestyle. Sometimes it`s very effective.
BEHAR: Ok.
FULLER: Right and they called it a lifestyle choice on your show.
BEHAR: That`s right. And he also said you can`t prosecute love. That`s so beautiful.
Thank you, guys, so much. We`ll be back in a minute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Joy. Happy one-year anniversary. Congratulations. I`ve been waiting for your show. I`m glad it`s here. I hope it never goes away, honey. And I love when you speak your mind simply as you always do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Joy celebrates one year on the air and takes a look back at her favorite show moments from the past 12 months.
And, singer Phil Collins drop by to talk about his new album and his obsession with Texas.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: You know, in 1988 at the age of 37, journalist Meredith Maran accused her father of molesting her when she was a kid. Ten years later she realized it wasn`t true. Meredith is one of the tens of thousands of Americans who during the incest hysteria of the `80s became convinced that they repressed memories of -- that she repressed memories of childhood sexual abuse only to find out the memories were false.
Joining me now is Meredith Maran, author of "My Lie: A True Story of False Memory". And joining her is Dr. Gail Saltz, associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital.
Ok, Meredith, how did you come to believe that your father had sexually abused you? What happened?
MEREDITH MARAN, AUTHOR, "MY LIE: A TRUE STORY OF FALSE MEMORY": It was a perfect storm, Joy. It was a combination of having been a journalist in the early `80s. One of very few journalists who knew the truth about incest, which was this new statistics that one in three American women had been molested as a child. And I was -- I sort became an Evangelist to let the world know and save all of these kids because the culture wasn`t dealing with incest.
That combined with my own psychological profile and the relationships in our family. I had been very close to my father, sort of at the expense of my bond with my mother. And yes so --
BEHAR: I see. So you were -- were you in therapy at the time?
MARAN: Oh, yes. Yes I was in many kinds of therapy.
BEHAR: And -- what was happening there?
MARAN: Well, over the years -- there were a period of years building up to the accusation itself when I was wondering. And during that time I saw several different therapists. I was one of the lucky ones in that none of the therapists did what many therapists did do in those years, which was to say -- if I went in there and said, I think I might have been molested. I have all these symptoms.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
MARAN: That seems to be consistent and then they would say, oh for sure if you have these symptoms you were molested. The therapists I saw for the most part were very neutral. They kind of let me go at my pace where I wanted to go.
On the other hand, none of them said, you think you were molested because you had insomnia as a child? It might have been good.
BEHAR: Wow. Gail, do you want to weigh in on the therapists for a second there.
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, there are -- there are good therapists and there are not -- I mean, therapist is a broad word.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
SALTZ: It means social worker, psychologist, psychiatrist. I mean, actually there`s no -- nothing that you need to hang up a shingle as a therapist. Ok.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: The time that you`re talking about, you know, psychoanalysis have been reeling in its hay day prior to this time. But we`re sort of really lost or losing ground at this time.
So the whole idea that you could have fantasies about your father or an attraction to a parent that that got repressed and then would come back but unexamined and no longer conscious, could drive fantasies, dreams, and so on.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you`re talking about --
SALTZ: That was lost.
BEHAR: -- but did you actually have a memory? Did you picture yourself being molested by him?
MARAN: I did not.
BEHAR: You did not?
MARAN: I did not. I had -- it was so much -- sort of reverse engineering. You know, I had this list of symptoms. And like many other women I knew at the time, I had an incest journal. And in my incest journal was a running list of symptoms.
BEHAR: Like what? What symptoms?
MARAN: Like insomnia, like some medical problems I had as a young child that seemed to be consistent. Like the relationship that I didn`t have with my mother and did have with my father.
BEHAR: So it really was more like, I must have been molested --
MARAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: And instead of I remember being molested?
MARAN: Exactly, yes.
I did have a whole slew of really horrific nightmares. But -- and at the time I believed that if you have a dream, even though I was having dreams of flying and lots of other things --
BEHAR: Yes.
MARAN: -- I believed that if I dreamed it, it must have happened.
BEHAR: I see.
Now, are these memories -- well, a lot of times they are real. And most of the time I think they are real.
SALTZ: Well, memories can -- memories that people actually have but memories can be real. They also can be repressed. I mean, that did happen at the time. There -- there are kids who have a traumatic experience and a self -- a defense mechanism of the brain is to repress that.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARAN: Although that`s controversial. There are plenty of people out there who say that`s absolutely impossible.
SALTZ: Impossible?
MARAN: Yes.
SALTZ: I -- I -- you know, I would say the mainstream of mental health professionals believe that it can happen. That kids can repress it and remember later --
BEHAR: Correct.
SALTZ: -- or they can dissociate at the time and therefore it becomes this foggy, weird memory.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: But a dream is never a memory.
BEHAR: No.
SALTZ: That being said --
BEHAR: Some shrinks think that dream is just a flat brain wave. That it has nothing to do with anything.
MARAN: Well, for the book I talked to a lot of neuroscientists and I wanted to know if I came to you now with the wondering that I was going through in the `80s, would you be able to stick me in one of your machines and tell me yes it`s true or no? It`s not -- and they said, basically no, that`s not the case.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: Right.
MARAN: But they also told me that a dream is -- a dream reflects of what you were thinking about that day.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARAN: And I was living my life thinking about incest.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: But you were right.
MARAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: You know, before -- before we end this because we don`t have a lot of time. The thing about this story that`s upsetting is that it`s almost like you know, when a girl says that she was raped when she really wasn`t. It puts a bad light on the poor girls who actually are raped.
MARAN: Right.
BEHAR: And the victims of sexual abuse, which -- is it still one out of three?
MARAN: I don`t believe that it is one out of three. But I don`t know. And that`s a phrase, having written this book and gone through this.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARAN: I`ve learned the value of those three words, I don`t know.
BEHAR: I mean, there was a hysteria during the `80s --
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and the McMartin trial.
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: I remember, everybody remembers that.
But this -- most of the stories I think are true.
MARAN: Are true just like rape or anything.
SALTZ: Well, you know, the pendulum was flung too far -- was too far in one direction. We couldn`t talk about it. It was shameful.
BEHAR: We have more time after the break. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back and we`re talking about a woman who accused her father of molesting her years ago before realizing her memories were incorrect.
Meredith, how did your family react to the accusation? What happened when you told your family?
MARAN: The first person I told was my brother and he kind of surprised me by believing me very quickly. Part of the reason was that there was this mania -- as Gail said -- going on. So he was sort of predisposed to believe me. Then I told my mother, who was absolutely devastated and said that it couldn`t have happened. It just couldn`t have happened.
BEHAR: That`s kind of a typical reaction too.
MARAN: Totally.
BEHAR: A lot of mothers cannot -- they deny.
SALTZ: Absolutely. And that`s -- so sometimes the trauma is not only between the parent that did the molesting but the other parent who ultimately ends up feeling horribly guilty and denying.
BEHAR: And the child (INAUDIBLE) the parent who didn`t protect them.
GALTZ: Exactly, she didn`t protect him. That is correct.
MARAN: In these cases in court, the molested child will go to the father who molested her instead of to the mother.
BEHAR: So, how did your father react? What happened then when you told him --
MARAN: I didn`t have a chance to tell my father or confront him directly. But he heard about it from my niece actually because I didn`t let my kids see him, which is really the part of this that I, in many ways, feel the worst about because my kids are my kids and I was trying to keep them safe. Because I thought my father was a child molester.
But in doing so -- because I thought my father was a child molester -- in doing so, I destroyed their relationships with their only grandfather and separated them from their cousins. So it was really awful.
BEHAR: But now you do speak to your father?
MARAAN: My father and my stepmother and I are closer than we`ve ever been. You know, it`s really -- what the book is about really -- it sounds cheesy, but the power of redemption. When we finally sat down after 20 years and really had that conversation. And I told him why I thought I did what I did and what really stunned me was -- it makes me cry to think about it -- that he said, I`m sorry too. You know, that if I had been the father I wish I had been, this never could have happened. To go to him to apologize that way --
BEHAR: Did you write the book so that you could sort of have your redemption for the family?
MARAN: I kind of think -- I didn`t say that when I was working on it, but now that that`s what`s happening, I feel so grateful for that chance.
BEHAR: What would either one of you say to families who may be working something like this out? Is there anything you can say to someone?
SALTZ: I think -- I mean working real incest out or --
BEHAR: Either one.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: What`s great about this story is that you forgave him and he forgave you because you both understood that you`re not perfect people and you have your limitations, real limitations. I think that for most -- when there`s basically a mostly healthy situation going on, that is possible.
You can say, boy, I didn`t like this about your parenting, or I didn`t like this about you being my child. But -- and communicate about it. But in cases of real incest, that is terribly traumatic. It affects someone for the rest of their lives. Sometimes those relationships really cannot be repaired. They just cannot. And I think --
BEHAR: Can the person be repaired, the victim?
SALTZ: The person -- the victim can absolutely make progress with a very good therapist, who is used to working with someone who specifically has dealt with this kind of trauma. Yes, they can improve their ability to have intimacy. That`s what gets most damaged, trust and intimacy.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you ladies, very much. It was very interesting and the book is great.
We`ll be back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL COLLINS, SINGER: Whenever I`m with her, something inside starts (something inside) to burning, and I`m filled with desire. Cause it`s easy -- like a heat wave burning in my heart, it`s like a heat wave, it`s tearing me apart heat wave, burning my heart, tearing me apart - whenever she comes --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: I love it. He`s one of the most successful singer/songwriters of all time. With over 250 million albums sold, an Oscar and eight Grammy awards. His new album is called "Going Back" and it`s out now. Please welcome to my show, the great, Phil Collins. Come on.
PHIL COLLINS, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Thank you very much. Glad to be here, Joy.
BEHAR: So nice to see you, Phil. I`m a huge fan. You know my daughter loves you. Everyone in my family, we love your music.
COLLINS: Well it`s very nice of you to say so.
BEHAR: I love your "Tarzan" album.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: That was a great one.
COLLINS: Yes well the film was great to make. But I think I`ve reached the music border, I really had such a great time on that movie, wrote a lot of new you songs. And I was proud to have my name on Broadway.
BEHAR: But the music is beautiful. It`s so touching, you know, a lot of it.
COLLINS: Well when you`ve got kids, that`s what happens.
BEHAR: Is that what happens, you get more touched?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Touched. You know, you, Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson are the only musicians who have sold over 100 million albums, both as solo artists and separately as members of a band. What`s it like being a musical god?
COLLINS: My garage is stocked full of records. I can tell you that. It doesn`t seem to work, does it? It doesn`t seem to fit. I mean I`ve heard this figure. McCartney, he`s a Beatle, Michael Jackson, and then there`s me. And it just doesn`t work.
BEHAR: You`re much too modest. And I see you`re a self-effacing type of guy -
COLLINS: Well you know.
BEHAR: And it`s wrong of you.
COLLINS: It feels great, Joy. I feel so superior. No, I don`t think of it. I don`t think of it.
BEHAR: I know you don`t. You don`t think of yourself that way. You`re shy about yourself.
COLLINS: I am.
BEHAR: And you shouldn`t be because you`re fabulous. What`s this I hear about you being adored by rappers and punks? They think you are cool now so what`s --
COLLINS: Yes well I don`t know. The hip-hop kind of world and rap guys have for quite awhile. You know when I did "Sussudio," I think that was the first cross over record to hit the R&B stations as well. And then "Easy Lover" for Bailey -
BEHAR: Love.
COLLINS: It`s a great record. And I think they became aware of what I was doing around that time. And yes, they kind of come out in my defense sometimes. I mean you know because the other critics, the white critics, put it that way, don`t go for it that much. But the hip-hop guys have been very loyal to me.
BEHAR: What exactly does "Sussudio" mean? And where do you come up with it?
COLLINS: It doesn`t mean anything. I just - well. It popped out of my mouth when I was writing the pop song. I mean it`s a bit difficult to record a song even. It`s kind of a good idea with a nice horn riff. But I tried to find a word that scanned as well "Sussudio." I improvise words, you know. And I couldn`t find one that worked as well as so I stuck with "Sussudio" and then invested a name. You know a name of a girl or - my daughter had a horse which is called "Sussudio."
BEHAR: Oh after the song -
COLLINS: After the event.
BEHAR: After the song. It`s kind of like scatting in a way.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Just make it up as you go along.
COLLINS: Yes, I see it on a number of plates you know. I goes like this. Somewhere there are probably poor children called "Sussudio."
BEHAR: Called "Sussudio,", I know. I know, OK, it sounds like an Italian sussudio mange pepete.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Or something like that. That has a ring to it. I don`t think of you as Motown and R&B.
COLLINS: No, no. I don`t think it`s all those years with Genesis that put the two pictures together and don`t seem it -- doesn`t seem to make sense. But from me, apart from the Beatles when I was a teenager, 13 onwards, I was listening to Motown and Atlantic, you know like Sam and Dave and Otis Redding and people like that. For me, Motown had a magic. Great musicians in band and great sound. And people like the Four Tops and Martha and the Vandellas are heroes.
BEHAR: They were great. They were great.
COLLINS: So it`s always been in my blood. I`ve been thinking about it because you know I`ve talking about the record. And I think, I joined Genesis when I was 19. And at that point, we didn`t do anybody else`s material, we just did Genesis material. So I kind of never got a chance to work through the pub, kind of circuit playing a few of your own songs and playing a few hits. And I was never able to do that.
BEHAR: It`s nice. Reinventing yourself in the middle of your career.
COLLINS: Middle of my career.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It`s right in the middle.
COLLINS: Is it?
BEHAR: Yes, it`s not the end, Phil. Let`s to the get depressing.
COLLINS: No, I`m not getting depressed, I`m quite looking forward to it. I want to go home. I`m quite looking forward to going home.
BEHAR: You are? And where is home?
COLLINS: Switzerland.
BEHAR: Switzerland. Is that because it`s a tax shelter?
COLLINS: No. He said quickly.
BEHAR: What is the reason you moved there, besides your love of lederhosen?
COLLINS: Damn, I played there in `94 and met someone and fell in love and we got married and we have two children. And I`ve been living there 15 years.
BEHAR: Oh.
COLLINS: And it`s a lovely place. It`s quiet.
BEHAR: It`s very quiet.
COLLINS: It`s quiet and it`s a nice place to bring kids up. And I you know, wouldn`t have put it on my list of top ten places to go and live. But you know the heart makes you do foolish things.
BEHAR: I have a picture --
COLLINS: I`m going to write that down, sorry.
BEHAR: Good maybe that`s a new lyric. The thing about Switzerland is that I think of it as extremely boring, my personal feeling about it.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: But that safe, no crime, no drugs, maybe alcohol from the boredom.
COLLINS: Yes. But apart from that -- apart from that, yeah, this is the German part of Switzerland you`re talking about.
BEHAR: Oh, there`s a German part.
COLLINS: This is the Switzerland is a country of three countries. The Swiss-Germans who are more Germans than Germans. And the Swiss French which is like French part. Which is like it together, France. You know it`s actually, it`s a good nice place to live. And the other part is the Italian part. But --
BEHAR: They always said they were neutral during World War II. I bet the German part wasn`t neutral. Hello.
COLLINS: Don`t drag me into this. You know I just live there.
BEHAR: You know I`m a troublemaker.
COLLINS: Yes I know.
BEHAR: One night I have to tell the audience how you`re so great. You came to see me at the Zipper Theater in New York with your girlfriend, Dana Tyler.
COLLINS: Dana Tyler.
BEHAR: And it was like, I was so taken with the fact that you are in the audience. I had sung two songs and humiliated myself before you, before I realized you were there.
COLLINS: You were wonderful, I had a great time. You know I`d known you from the TV. Dana said, it`s a really good show. When we used to go to the Broadway much more than we do now. It was great entertainment and it was lovely to meet you afterwards. I feel we are friends.
BEHAR: We are pals for sure. And the other thing about you that`s interesting to me in particular is that you said something interesting. You said that if you hadn`t broken up with your first wife, you might have been a nobody. I sort of understand it. It`s like it catapulted me out of the cocoon and into the career.
COLLINS: In my instance, it pushed me, not push me. I ended up writing songs. Whereas before that event, I would have -- it was more and more music, more drumming than singing than writing. And I obviously had a lot of things I needed to get out on of my system. I did that on face value, which was the first album. And so my life changed at that point. And it`s not that I regret it or it would have been great if it never happened. Then we wouldn`t be sitting here talking. I wouldn`t have five kids. You know, none of that would have happened. You have to look differently at life once that happens.
BEHAR: You have five children with three wives, right?
COLLINS: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s OK. You`re only in the middle of your career. God knows what will come up the pike next week.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: But the thing about you that I read, I just can`t believe - that you pay over 40 million pounds in alimony. Who is your lawyer, Sarah Palin? I mean who`s your lawyer?
COLLINS: Well, you know, if that is the eye of the law, then the law is a hash, as Charles Dickens wrote. That`s the law. You know, that`s the way it is. And I don`t think of it like that. If they -- you know, they can only -- they leave you with half.
BEHAR: And you`re friends with all of them?
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s so charming. Are they making any money often the album, the new album?
COLLINS: No, no, no. Yes, I think at this -- I think it`s great to be actually -- having been married three times to actually it -- and Dana`s beautiful, you know.
BEHAR: Dana`s beautiful. I love Dana. Dana Tyler. She`s on CBS.
COLLINS: CBS. And she knows all three of my ex-partners and gets on great with all three --
BEHAR: She knows all three of your ex-wives -- can we take a break and come back more with this topic. I must hear more about this. We`ll be back with more Phil Collins, when we -- in a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy one-year anniversary, Joy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Joy, happy anniversary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joy, one year. Bet it felt like 20, hasn`t it. Good luck on number two, now you`re really feeling old.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One year of pure Joy. Happy anniversary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Happy anniversary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joy, has it really been a year? You know, you don`t look more than, I don`t know, three, four weeks old.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: We`re back with music legend Phil Collins. OK when we took a break, we were talking about how Dana Tyler, your girlfriend, is friendly with all your ex-wives. Do you like have parties together? Not key parties but like --
COLLINS: Sleepovers.
BEHAR: I mean dinner parties.
COLLINS: No, no, it`s not quite like that. I just think it`s great. And I`ve got five kids from 38 to 5, you know. And it`s great for the kids to see mom and dad get on.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And that`s finally happened. I think that`s the most important thing. And I -- we are great friends. You know, not necessarily each with each other. But certainly me and my ex-partners are great. And Dana is a jewel. You know --
BEHAR: The three wives also are friendly with each other are Dana is friendly with them. Each one --
COLLINS: Dana is friendly with them. I can`t guarantee that the other chemistry is quite the same. That`s not -- you know.
BEHAR: Uh huh, so like when you first got divorced, I`m sure it wasn`t as friendly. It`s never friendly --
COLLINS: No, no, it never is.
BEHAR: That`s a horror, that first year, oy.
COLLINS: Yes. Because there`s -- your corner, my corner. Your friends, my friends.
BEHAR: I bet you kept all the friends. Because you know, you`re famous and you`re rich. So are they at this point though. Thanks to you.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: Exactly, you see. No, you know, it is always the taking of positions. I just think that it`s -- to get over that as soon as possible. And I`ve gotten over it.
BEHAR: And especially for the children.
COLLINS: Yes it`s fantastic for the kids.
BEHAR: You know your career is interesting. You were a child actor. You did an extra part, 1964 in "Hard Day`s Night." How did that happen?
COLLINS: Well I went to drama school and they just got the call. Send 50 kids to the Scarlet Theater which was on Charlotte Street. It`s not there anymore. No one knew what they were going for. We just turned up. And so did every other drama school. And we turned up and walked in. There was the Beetles` drum kit. They walked on stage "She Loves You." everyone went nuts. I`ve seen my friends in it but I`ve never seen me. But 30 years later they made the making of "A Hard Day`s Night," to celebrate.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And Walter Shanksman (ph) produced the film had heard this story and gave me the out take. So -- and I found me eventually.
BEHAR: So were you getting residuals?
COLLINS: I may be feeling shame -- I feel sorry for the kid -- there`s a kid that does a river side scene with Ringo.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And everybody thinks that`s me now. The kid`s one moment of fame. He`s probably in obscurity now. That wasn`t me. I was not even in the film. I was there listening. The little still that I found when I watched the outtakes was me like this. Because I just wanted to -- just shut up and listen to the music, you know.
BEHAR: So you had your calling. I always say that people know what they should be in life. If you look back at when you were 10 years old. What did you want to do at 10 years old? That pretty much tells you what you should be.
COLLINS: Yes, I was playing drums. I never wanted to be anything else. Never a train driver, never an astronaut, never a racing car driver.
BEHAR: Always a musician and a singer.
COLLINS: Well no, I never wanted to be a singer. I was just - nor a musician, just a drummer.
BEHAR: Well the drums, that`s an interesting story, what happened to your hands? That I read something --
COLLINS: Yes. I don`t know what happened. But long story short is that I don`t really have -- I can`t feel the end of my fingers, which means I don`t have the strength in my fingers I used to have. So when I made the record, I had to take the stick to my left hand, which is a different sensation having played since I was 5 years old. But we finish the record I think - but you know --
BEHAR: Yes but you had to tape the -- that`s interesting.
COLLINS: I don`t know whether it will right itself or snot. We`re philosophically adjusted to the idea.
BEHAR: OK what`s this I hear about you being obsessed with Texas and you`re writing a book about the Alamo?
COLLINS: Yes When I was 5 years old, Fess Parker. And Disney`s --
BEHAR: Davey Crockett.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And it caught my imagination and stayed with me. And then I started, you know, 15 odd years ago, I started collecting documents. Because I came across a letter written by Davey Crockett. And I thought, I never realized this stuff might exist. So I started collecting, I`ve got cannons and I`ve got rifles and knives from the Alamo.
BEHAR: I see.
COLLINS: And I`m writing a book about the collection.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. From a Brit. I guess you`re just interested --
COLLINS: Well a lot of Europeans at the Alamo. You know this is real train spotter stuff. You know --
BEHAR: Is that where they got the term I reckon? Because I see it all in British movies, they use the term, I reckon.
COLLINS: I reckon.
BEHAR: And then so do the West -
COLLINS: Yes probably the immigrants.
BEHAR: OK I have questions from viewers now.
COLLINS: OK.
BEHAR: They tweet and they ask questions because they`re so interested in you. Will there be a Genesis reunion with Peter Gabriel? He`s also a great musician.
COLLINS: Yes, yes. No, he`s fantastic. I love Peter. That`s been talked about for quite a few years now. And with the advent of this problem with my hand, my job would be as drummer. So it`s out.
BEHAR: It`s out.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. How about "AMERICAN IDOL" people want to know, if they ever ask you to be a judge there, would you do it?
COLLINS: No, I think I`d draw the line there.
BEHAR: Why?
COLLINS: I don`t think it`s a civilized way - I don`t think the judges become more - you know the more vitriolic they are, the more talk, the more celebrities they become. And I just don`t like it.
BEHAR: OK what about "DANCING WITH THE STARS" are you twinkle toes?
COLLINS: No, I went to drummers school and I had to learn ballet. I had ballet -
BEHAR: Oh.
COLLINS: Lessons and modern jazz dancing and tap dancing. But I try to keep that well into the depths - you know, past.
BEHAR: I can`t tell you how I`ve enjoyed seeing you Phil.
COLLINS: It`s nice to see you again Joy.
BEHAR: It`s been just delightful to have you know, just brilliant. Everyone thinks you`re just the best.
COLLINS: I`ll come see you again.
BEHAR: Come see me again.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Well you`re seeing me now.
COLLINS: Happy first anniversary.
BEHAR: Come and see me do stand up sometime again.
COLLINS: I will.
BEHAR: OK, check out his new album, "Going Back" we`ll be back after a quick break. Thank you Phil so much.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, HOST: Hey Joy. We hear it`s your first anniversary with the JOY BEHAR SHOW so we just wanted to say congratulations. Right guys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we are very proud. Just don`t miss a day at this show.
GOLDBERG: That`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would be do without you?
GOLDBERG: That`s right, bitch.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know it`s hard to believe we have been doing this show for a year. Just like yesterday, Tony Danza was on the show. Oh wait a second, he was on yesterday. Never mind, you get the point, time flies when you`re having fun. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
BEHAR: Welcome everybody, glad you are here for my opening night, make yourselves at home. Me casa e sou casa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very good show, that`s why I wanted to come here.
BEHAR: Oh is that why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had it with someone - I thought, that looks wholesome.
JENNIFER LOVE HEWITT, ACTRESS: Bejazzling is where you take raw crystals and decorate your little lady -
BEHAR: Oh your little lady.
HEWITT: Your lady -
BEHAR: And don`t the sequence get itchy?
HEWITT: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one wants to see my full frontal.
BEHAR: Oh contraire, mon ami. I have all sorts of things here, to clean the studio up with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s like porn to me, the smell of Lysol. Did you just cough, thank god that that just stays here.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joy let`s not kid around Joy.
BEHAR: OK, let`s not. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are Joy, and here we are clearly in the court of JOY BEHAR.
BEHAR: Yes, I want to talk to you about Sandra Bullock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I feel badly for her.
BEHAR: Because - you feel bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know her but I just -
BEHAR: You feel bad not badly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, it`s an adverb.
BEHAR: No, no, you don`t sadly do you? You feel bad, you feel sad. All right, I want you to change seats right now. Change seats. No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BEHAR: Oh my god. Who told you you could do this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suck it in. Suck it in, 31.5 inches.
BEHAR: Seriously?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very impressive.
BEHAR: So Liza, are you going to get married again?
LIZA MINNELLI: So I`m doing this musical. It`s so terrific.
BEHAR: I was at your wedding.
MINNELLI: Which one, Cary Grant, same thing.
BEHAR: He was gay too?
BETTY WHITE: Well I don`t know.
BEHAR: Yes, you know something, Betty.
WHITE: No I don`t know. I never had him. I`ve never had him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you and this woman from the beast hate Christians why? Why?
BEHAR: Oh now you`ve really gone too far. Listen, Mark, don`t give me that crap. I come from a working class family, OK. My mother was a sewing machine operator. My father was a truck driver, give it a rest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Great Joy to do it.
BEHAR: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope your husband tells you that every morning.
BEHAR: I`m not married.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Easiest interview you ever had.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Easiest by far and probably the best.
BEHAR: We have much more to discuss -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you perfect?
BEHAR: Just a minute, yes, I am. We`ll be right back.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yes, I am. Thank you all so much for watching over the last year. It`s been so much fun. Tomorrow on the show I`ll be talking to the one and only, Dr. Phil. Goodnight, everybody.
END
