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Ginni Thomas Calls Anita Hill; Yale Frat`s Sexually Charged Hazing; Interview With Wynonna Judd
Aired October 20, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Misogyny 101 at Yale. When a prestigious frat marches its pledges through campus while making offensive chants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No means yes. Yes means anal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So is this a blip on the radar? Or is anti- feminism still thriving.
Then dancing drama as Bristol Palin beats sentimental favorite Florence Henderson and Brandy opens up about her sex life or lack thereof.
Plus legendary country singer, Wynonna Judd is here to dish on the latest chapter of her amazing career.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: The wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has called Anita Hill demanding an apology for accusing her husband of sexual harassment in 1991 and nearly derailing his chances of making it -- nearly derailing it -- on to the high court, because he`s there.
This is the message Ginni Thomas left on Hill`s voice mail. Quote, Good morning Anita Hill. It`s Ginni Thomas. I just wanted to reach across the air waves and the years and ask you to consider something. I would love you to consider an apology sometime and some full explanation of why you did what you did with my husband. So give it some thought and certainly pray about this and come to understand why you did what you did, ok? Have a good day.
Here to discuss this and more are Randi Rhodes, premier radio talk show host; and Christopher Metzler, political analyst and associate dean at the School of Continuing Studies at Georgetown. Welcome to the show.
CHRISTOPHER METZLER, POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you.
RANDI RHODES, TALK SHOW HOST: Thanks.
First of all, I find it interesting that she said, what you did "with my husband", not "to my husband".
METZLER: Yes, that`s kind of bizarre. It seems to be that she is basically implying that they did, in fact, have sex. That seems to be the implication because she said --
BEHAR: I know but Anita Hill never said that.
METZLER: No, she didn`t, which is the most interesting part of this because she seems to be implying that she think there was something else that went on and that`s what she wants the apology for. That`s what it seems to me.
BEHAR: Very odd. I mean what do you think motivated this woman 20 years later to make this phone call?
RHODES: Drunk.
BEHAR: You think she was drunk at 7:30 in the morning?
RHODES: 7:30 in the morning. I mean Joy, they`re like tag-team harassing Anita Hill now. She accused Clarence Thomas of harassing her -- sexually harassing her.
BEHAR: Right.
RHODES: And now the wife 19 years later is leaving a phone message at 7:30 on a Saturday morning. Anybody calls me 7:30 Saturday morning, they`re harassing me. My kid calls me 7:30 Saturday morning she`s harassing me.
BEHAR: Right. True. Good point.
Well, you know, there`s some controversy over her affiliation with this group, Liberty Central, where she is accepting anonymous donations for running this particular organization which is a right wing group really out to get Obama and the Democrats -- ok that`s her right. But her husband -- I was reading that her husband, Clarence Thomas, he has spent a lot of time trying to get the Supreme Court to say, ok, corporations, bring on the money. Anonymous donors are ok from corporations. There is something fishy about what just went down.
Could you give me your take on that, either one of you?
METZLER: I think that`s a bit of a stretch. I don`t think there`s a connection here. It seems probably the more larger reason that she did this is, I don`t know, perhaps she`s trying to get a show on a network -- Thomas/Hill. That`s probably what it seems to me like she`s trying to do.
She`s out doing a bit of publicity. It seems to me that she wants to become a media personality. I don`t know that you can link the Tea Party in any concrete way.
BEHAR: No, but --
RHODES: Oh, yes, you can. She just did one of the largest Tea Party gatherings; 2,000 Tea Party people just recently and stood up there and asked people for donations. Two donations came in: on $500,000, one $50,000 and we don`t know who gave. Now, when a judge has to hear a case like Citizens United which said corporate money is now able to come flooding in, in the form of ads and no disclosure, we never get to know.
So if Target runs an ad against, let`s say, you know. runs an ad for an anti-gay candidate that we knew you that Target gave money, people could say, I don`t want to shop at Target. They could make the decision. Now we don`t even know who is giving the money. And Mrs. Thomas is head of Liberty Central, one of these groups.
BEHAR: And we don`t know who gave her the $500,000.
RHODES: And so her husband is deciding on these issues where maybe one of the givers is trying to influence the outcome.
BEHAR: Does that bother you at all, sir?
METZLER: Well, I don`t think you can make the connection. That`s the issue for me. If you can make the connection, the office of ethical council would have done so. I think to accuse Thomas -- Justice Thomas somehow of being involved in being influenced is way beyond the pale. I just don`t think that that`s accurate.
BEHAR: Well, ok.
RHODES: Well, I`m a woman. I know what pillow talk is, you know. And you sit there and you say, honey, you know I have -- first of all, this is how they met. She was a lobbyist for the Chamber of Commerce. And she lobbied --
BEHAR: Oh, the Chamber of Commerce on the front page right now.
(CROSSTALK)
RHODES: Of course, because they`re the ones that are funneling all the money -- secretly laundering the money for these corporations.
METZLER: But it`s also constitutional. The court made a decision.
RHODES: Yes it is and the court is her husband, which is crazy.
METZLER: No, the court is not her husband. He`s one of nine justices. The court is not her husband.
RHODES: He`s on the side of Citizens United, ok?
METZLER: Well, ok. So he`s on the side of Citizens United. He would have been there regardless of this.
(CROSSTALK)
RHODES: Well, let me finish telling you who she is, ok? She was a lobbyist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. She was lobbying for business interests against Family Leave and Medical Act, against Equal Pay for Women, against Affirmative Action. And Clarence Thomas was at EEOC. He wrote that the EEOC`s position was that affirmative action makes it even worse for minorities and women and that equal pay -- you know, they called it worthy comparison. They said that that`s not a good standard for women.
So he did what she was lobbying him to do. That`s how they met. They got married next summer.
BEHAR: Ok. Let him respond.
METZLER: But his positions have always been clear on this issue. On all of the issues that you talked about: affirmative action, equal pay, those kinds of things.
BEHAR: He`s always been against that.
METZLER: He`s always been against that.
RHODES: He`s always been against it when he was at EEOC which is when she was lobbying him on behalf of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce for business --
METZLER: So?
RHODES: So maybe she influenced him from the beginning, maybe when he was forming his opinions at EEOC.
METZLER: I think this is absolute pure speculation.
BEHAR: I don`t know.
But let`s get back to the sexual harassment part of the whole thing. This issue is still hot. It`s still hot with Anita Hill and him. It`s unbelievable how hot it is.
But is there any reason why Anita Hill would want to get involved in this again? Why would Anita Hill send the tape to the FBI also?
RHODES: She sent it to Brandeis. She sent it to the school --
BEHAR: Then the FBI got it.
RHODES: and then the FBI got it because she didn`t know who this woman was. She didn`t know it was for real, it was for Ginni Thomas. She had no idea why this woman would be calling at 7:30 morning on a Saturday morning. And she -- it was threatening to her. I would love to have seen Clarence Thomas` face when Ginni walk in the room and says, "Hey Clarence, guess what I just did. I just called Anita."
BEHAR: You don`t think that he knew anything about it?
RHODES: You think that they sat there Friday night, you know, planning that she would get up at the crack of dawn to call Anita?
BEHAR: I have no idea. Do you think he knew anything about it?
METZLER: No, I don`t think he knew anything about this. This is part of the conspiracy theory with him. I don`t think that he knew anything about this. I think Anita Hill absolutely did what she should have done which was turn it over because then she would have looked like a nut job had it been someone random who left this message on her machine.
BEHAR: You know, it`s interesting because in the court of public opinion, he is still guilty in a lot of places. It`s kind of 20 years later -- I mean I was talking to women today. And they were like, of course, he did it. Of course, Anita was right. That`s how people see it.
RHODES: I was so shocked I coughed up a pubic hair. Come on. The thing that`s so creepy about the whole thing is that this is 20 years ago and the wife is calling this woman who showed intense bravery -- and the whole world was watching --
BEHAR: Do you think she showed intense bravery --
METZLER: No. I`m not sure that she showed intense bravery. First and foremost, she is an attorney. She worked at the EEOC. If she thought that there was a problem relative to sexual harassment, she knew what the procedures were.
BEHAR: You`re talking about Anita?
METZLER: I`m talking about Anita.
BEHAR: Do you think she lied.
METZLER: I have no way of knowing whether she lied -- but she never filed a claim of sexual harassment against him.
RHODES: Because she would have had to file it with him. He was her boss.
METZLER: No. That is absolutely not right.
(CROSSTALK)
METZLER: Retaliation is prohibited under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
RHODES: Not according to Clarence Thomas.
BEHAR: Wouldn`t she have lost her job if she did that when he was her boss?
METZLER: No. I don`t think -- then she files a claim for retaliation had that happened. I don`t think that that`s the case.
RHODES: So she made it up?
METZLER: No. I`m not saying she made it up. I`m saying she didn`t follow the proper procedure. If in fact that happened, why did she wait until his confirmation hearing?
RHODES: Chris, you have to be a woman to understand why when somebody is harassing you and somebody is say come watch "Long Dong Silver" with me on VHS -- that`s how old it is -- or somebody saying, hey look, there`s a pubic hair on my can of coke. That`s creepy stuff.
And when your boss is the head of the EEOC who`s supposed to be there protecting rights, where are you going to go? Congress. That`s where she went.
BEHAR: And here`s the other thing. Now this problem has been highlighted yet again.
METZLER: Sure.
BEHAR: This month, a Yale university fraternity had its pledges march around campus chanting sexually offensive slogans. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No means yes. Yes means anal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. I just played part of it. It`s really quite obscene and quite obnoxious. And you know, it`s kind of an active call for sexual violence in my opinion. Do you think it`s hate speech.
RHODES: Expect more from our Ivy League that`s for sure.
BEHAR: Really why?
RHODES: Like alliteration or rhyme or something.
BEHAR: George Bush and George W. went there, why do you expect more?
BEHAR: George W. went there. Why do you expect more? I expect more from the city university to tell you the truth rather than these rich brats.
RHODES: Right, it`s true. I mean that this frat boy mentality doesn`t go away. And it seems to serve them like well into their later years in their life. Kind of a rare --
BEHAR: Yale apologized, by the way.
RHODES: Yes, yes they always apologies --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And they are talking that`s it`s funny -- is it funny?
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTOPHER METZLER, POLITICAL ANALYST: No. No.
RHODES: -- with Aqua Buddha too ties up a woman, right tie`s up a woman and force her to smoke from a --
BEHAR: In college --
RHODES: -- this college frat thing doesn`t seem to -- it I didn`t go to college you know, so I don`t know guys like that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They were there.
RHODES: But when -- when you worked for them later in life, you kind of know that you know they`ve gone through this kind of stuff.
METZLER: Yes, it -- it`s bizarre. It`s inappropriate. It absolutely should not have happened. I don`t think it rises to the technical legal definition of hate speech. It should not have occurred.
I think the university has an obligation to deal with it as they have been doing. As the head of a department at a university, if that happened in our university I would deal with it head-on.
BEHAR: You would?
METZLER: Absolutely.
RHODES: This would never happen at Georgetown. It never would; it`s a wonderful school.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Would you suspend them -- would you suspend them, would you throw them out of the school?
METZLER: I would throw them out --
BEHAR: Throw them out of the school.
RHODES: Yes.
BEHAR: Good for you.
METZLER: I would throw them out of the school. That is absolutely not appropriate.
BEHAR: That`s good. So why aren`t they throwing them out?
METZLER: Well, they`re going to talk about due process. They`re going to talk about all of those kinds of things but let`s understand that due process is what the name says. The process that`s due. And in this case, the evidence speaks for itself.
BEHAR: Ok. Ok, very interesting. Thank you very much, both of you.
Up next, Karl Rove says the Tea Party is not sophisticated. With friends like that, who needs enemies? Oh my God.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Karl Rove takes a shot at the Tea Partiers saying that they`re not sophisticated and they probably haven`t read the work of economist Frederick van Hayek. Was he married to Salma Hayek?
Here now to discuss this and other stories are Eddie Sarfaty, comedian and author of "Mental: Funny in the Head"; Paulina Porizkova, a former supermodel and blogger for the Huffington Post; and Joe Levy, editor in chief of Maxim.
You know when he`s says that they are unsophisticated, is he talking to the whole Tea Party about them or is it just speaking about a few of them? Anybody?
JOE LEVY, EDITOR IN CHIEF, MAXIM: You know, it -- it seems like he`s talking about the whole Tea Party. He could be talking about certain candidates, I don`t know.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: Maybe Christine O`Donnell can see this economist from her house, I`m not sure. But you know, the thrust of his comment in some German magazine in the Reagan revolution, people were sophisticated. We read -- no, economic theory. No, people just voted for Reagan because he made them think America was great and promised to lower their taxes.
BEHAR: Yes but at this point in his administration, his approval ratings were lower than Obama`s right now.
LEVY: Yes.
BEHAR: So you know --
LEVY: Yes, but the comparison to the Reagan revolution and the Tea Party revolution is not as sophisticated. That Reagan revolution didn`t feel particularly sophisticated at the time.
BEHAR: No that`s true.
PAULINA PORIZKOVA, FORMER SUPERMODEL: But he does have a good point about the Tea Party not being so sophisticated. I mean, I never thought that I would agree with Karl Rove on anything. And for once I`m like, yes, yes, he`s got a point.
BEHAR: Well, I mean, you can`t really lump the entire Tea Party -- it`s made of a lot of different kinds of people. Christine O`Donnell --
PORIZKOVA: I don`t think they have a lot --
BEHAR: I know you do, but they don`t like that. And I can understand it in a way they`re kind of like -- you know, people who are scared of -- of what`s happening to their -- to their lives. Isn`t it?
LEVY: Yes. If you want -- if you want to take the Tea Party as a movement seriously, then you are bound to come to the conclusion that these are people who are fed up with government, plain and simple. But if you go to the Tea Party ideologues who stir up the crowd --
BEHAR: Right.
LEVY: -- these -- these people aren`t sophisticated either. And they`re preying on people`s fear and anger as ideologues always do.
BEHAR: Like who, give me a name.
LEVY: Glenn Beck.
BEHAR: Sarah Palin.
LEVY: Glenn Beck.
BEHAR: Glenn Beck.
LEVY: Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin. You know these people who --
PORIZKOVA: Taylor Miller?
LEVY: Yes, people who compare Obama to socialism, this is ridiculous.
BEHAR: Ok.
Well, Christine O`Donnell, as you know yesterday she was or it was yesterday or the day before, whatever it was I have lost track of time, she did not know apparently during a debate that the First Amendment covers separation of church and state. I mean, is she -- do you think that`s dumb or do you think she`s typical?
PORIZKOVA: Listen, I`m a former supermodel and I knew that, and I`m not even American.
BEHAR: Good point.
EDDIE SARFATY, COMEDIAN: Well, I do think that --
BEHAR: Yes.
SARFATY: -- in all fairness, she is running to be a lawmaker, not a law reader.
BEHAR: Yes.
SARFATY: You know, and I believe that if the Bill of Rights had been written by the unseen hand of God on a stone tablet, she would be completely up-to-date with it.
BEHAR: Yes, well, I mean, actually Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase separation of church and state. But it`s implied in the First Amendment. Everybody knows that.
PORIZKOVA: It`s not just implied, I mean, it`s fairly clearly stated.
BEHAR: Everybody -- I mean, Joe --
LEVY: The government is not going to make -- you want me to quote from the First Amendment? The government will make -- no it`s -- it`s ridiculous the government will make no, no, no -- it`s -- it`s insane. It`s absolutely insane. And when -- and when does this come back -- when does this all of this nonsense come back on the people who have endorsed O`Donnell?
When does it fire back on Sarah Palin, who put her seal of approval on Christine O`Donnell, who put the seal of approval on Joe Miller.
BEHAR: Ok, Joe Miller, he said about securing our borders -- I`m going to read you what he said. He`s the guy from Alaska. "East Germany was very, very able to reduce the flow. Now, obviously other things there were involved. We have the capacity to, as a great nation obviously to secure our bored. If East Germany could do it, we could do it."
What is he -- what`s the point?
PORIZKOVA: Did he notice that the walls were created to keep people inside?
BEHAR: Good point.
PORIZKOVA: Hello.
SARFATY: Not to mention that it kept freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press out.
PORIZKOVA: And they shot at you -- they shot you when you tried to climb the wall.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ronald Reagan, didn`t he worked with --
LEVY: Tear down this wall. Yes.
PORIZKOVA: Yes that`s right.
SARFATY: I think if we did build a wall, it would be an infrastructure project that we could all get behind.
BEHAR: That`s true.
SARFATY: And with no minimum wage, we could do it cheaply.
BEHAR: Yes but we`ve run out of stimulus money at this point, we don`t have any more money.
Ok, so I fell asleep on the couch last night. Bristol Palin was dancing in a gorilla suit. I had this crazy dream. Is that possible? What do you think? I have to lay off the Chardonnay. Did you watch it?
PORIZKOVA: I think I had the same Chardonnay.
BEHAR: Did you -- did you have a dream? It was Bristol in a gorilla suit. Were we in the same bed by any chance?
LEVY: Oh, oh wow, this is getting interesting. Hold on I`ll watch this show.
BEHAR: Anyway, 76-year-old Florence Henderson --
LEVY: Yes.
BEHAR: -- she tangled off into the sunset yesterday. She was voted off. Now, explain this to me. Why is Florence Henderson off or one of you, and Bristol Palin, who came out in the gorilla suit still there?
PORIZKOVA: I have to jump in. I`m so sorry. You`re much funnier than I am. I was one of the contestants on "Dancing with the Stars" and then I got kicked off first. So clearly --
BEHAR: So, you`re bitter.
PORIZKOVA: I`m bitter. I`m totally bitter, really bitter. I practiced for weeks. And then I got kicked off. And I wasn`t even like a really bad dancer. I was just a mediocre dancer.
BEHAR: We`re going to take a break and then we`ll pick this up in the next segment. So stay right there. We`ll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. Eddie had something to say about Florence Henderson getting kicked off.
SARFATY: Well, first of all, I`m sick over it because I love her. But the thing is, she`s totally sexed up. Who wants to see Carol Brady getting all sexed up?
BEHAR: Why not?
LEVY: Wait a minute. Carol Brady getting all sexed up I want to see. Florence Henderson in her 70`s getting all sexed up I`m not sure that I want to see.
SARFATY: If it was Alice, a different story.
BEHAR: Alice, well Alice -- that`s a whole other kind of --
(CROSSTALK)
PORIZKOVA: How old do we have to be to qualify as hot?
BEHAR: Under 35. Don`t you know the rule, under 35. After 35, you become invisible to men. That`s the rule. Don`t you know that?
PORIZKOVA: Well, no.
BEHAR: Maybe it doesn`t apply to you.
SARFATY: I do think it`s important that Bristol Palin stay on the show because I think it`s really important for her to set a good example to young girls around the country so that they know that unwanted pregnancy will in the end lead to close dancing and provocative outfits.
BEHAR: All righty. Another "Dancing with the Stars" cast member Brandy said she hasn`t had sex in six years and is abstaining until she falls in love. Now Brandy`s abstaining, Bristol is abstaining. Is the Bruno the only woman on the show getting anything? That`s what we all want to know here.
She said in a recent magazine interview, "I haven`t been with a man seriously and in love in six years. And honestly, I tend to abstain if I`m not in a relationship." When asked if she has been celibate for six years, she said, "No, but it`s been a long time. We`re talking years."
That doesn`t even make sense. Did you have it or didn`t you have it? Maybe she doesn`t know what the meaning of the word celibate is. Why do we need to know about Brandy`s sex life and why are the three of you staring at me like that?
LEVY: Because you are so outraged over this. Is it six years or has she had sex in the last six years? I need to know.
(CROSSTALK)
SARFATY: Maybe she`s having a Bill Clinton definition of sex issue.
PORIZKOVA: I just think who cares?
BEHAR: Maybe.
PORIZKOV: I don`t care.
BEHAR: So you don`t care.
PORIZKOVA: I really don`t want care.
BEHAR: The question is why does America care and why would she say it?
LEVY: I think the insight that we have here is that Brandy is a fearsome competitor and she wants to steal the abstinence vote away from Bristol Palin. So she`s trying to muscle in --
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: She`s trying to muscle in on the abstinence vote.
BEHAR: You know what else is shocking. Howard Stern who parades women around naked on his show all the time -- well he was shocked at the fact that the guy who was with Brandy -- what`s his name?
PORIZKOVA: Maksim Chmerkovskiy.
BEHAR: Maksim Chmerkovskiy -- that guy. Well, you would know how to say it. You`re a Czech.
He was smacking around the ass, Stern said, like she was his property. I was astounded that they were showing this on TV.
LEVY: Yes. This is because Howard, when he sees girls dancing there`s always a pole and they`re by themselves. So he`s never seen anybody dancing with them.
SARFATY: You know this guy, his first question to every female guest is, are your boobs real?
PORIZKOVA: He asked me that when I was on his show.
SARFATY: And --
PORIZKOVA: Like, I can see your nipples through your T-shirt.
SARFATY: I don`t know but I`d like to find out.
PORIZKOVA: You know what? He is so loud. He`s so loud on his show. Like his mike is turned up way louder than everybody else`s it doesn`t matter what you say it just like goes right over you.
BEHAR: Oh, really. Sounds familiar to me on some of the shows I`ve been on lately. Is Howard just becoming the Gloria Steinem of Sirius radio? He has older children now maybe he`s getting a consciousness --
PORIZKOVA: Well, he`s married to a new woman that he probably wouldn`t like Maks Chmerkovskiy to be hitting on the butt.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much you guys.
SARFATY: That was very graphic.
BEHAR: Country superstar, Wynonna Judd joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She started out in the early 1980s performing with her mom as half of country music`s most iconic duo, The Judds. Five Grammys, 14 number one hits, and 20 million albums. Later, Wynonna Judd embarked on an equally successful solo career. Her new CD, "Love Heals," is now available exclusively at Cracker Barrel and benefits the Wounded Warrior Project. I`m so happy to welcome to my show, the lovely and talented, Wynonna Judd.
WYNONNA JUDD, SINGER: Wow. Quite an introduction. Thanks, Joy.
BEHAR: Isn`t that nice? Cracker Barrel?
JUDD: Listen, we`re talking America, people. You don`t know about that?
BEHAR: No. Where is Cracker Barrel?
JUDD: What`s the matter with you?
BEHAR: Where is Cracker Barrel?
JUDD: Everywhere.
BEHAR: It`s not in New York.
JUDD: It`s one of the biggest corporations in the history of the world. Listen, in country music, we team up with the best.
BEHAR: OK.
JUDD: OK? So, here`s the deal. I`ve done it all.
BEHAR: You have?
JUDD: Twice.
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: You know my story, read the book, seen the movie.
(LAUGHING)
JUDD: I`ve tried to figure out ways to hook up with people in different ways. And those fine people, you know, not only brought me in, made me a part of, you know, their store, which is literally like going into a general store.
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: You know, you eat everything you love, that you grew up eating, if you`re from the south. And they have this general store. You walk in, you see the Wynonna in a merchandise, and a 12-year-old is buying this shirt (ph), and my CD is sitting there, and you but that, after, you know, good meal. It`s just what country music is all about, right?
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: Food and music, right?
BEHAR: I guess I just haven`t heard of it because I don`t leave New York City. I`m working 24/7.
JUDD: Come to Nashville and you and I can go and have our own table.
BEHAR: I`ve been to Nashville. I love Nashville.
JUDD: Seriously, it`s (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: The Wounded Warrior Project is something that I`m very passionate about. And I`m not even going to go into politics or war or any of that. I`m going to tell you that I`m a people`s people kind of person. And I`m all about music and healing and giving people hope. And so, when they put out love heals, love is the greatest of these. So, for me, it was a no-brainer.
BEHAR: Good for you. Good for you. That`s right. And now, career- wise though, you`re going to be performing with your mother again, I hear.
JUDD: Who would have thought it?
BEHAR: So, how did that will happen?
JUDD: It`s bring your mother to work here.
(LAUGHING)
JUDD: How did it happen? OK. Last year, seriously, I`m singing with her on a TV show for 50,000 fans.
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: I look out in the audience and we see generations. And the next generation of Judd heads are born. And I`m watching them sing, and I`m watching mom. And I`m thinking as a daughter, oh my God, you know, 15 years ago, she walked off stage. Here we are. And 50,000 people are singing back to us the Judd music. And I`m going, oh, this is just an absolute. It has to be. And a woman knows. A woman knows when she`s ready.
BEHAR: Ready for mom?
JUDD: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Aha.
JUDD: Ready for love, ready for whatever.
BEHAR: Well, she was forced to retire, I understand. She was diagnosed with hepatitis C. And the doctors only gave her three years to live. That`s pretty deep.
JUDD: About six feet deep.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s right.
JUDD: Come on. I`m quick. I`m like you. I`m a comedian. Come on. Work with me.
BEHAR: But you know, I know that from reading all your stuff that your relationship with your mother has ups and downs over the years.
JUDD: Tumultuous.
BEHAR: Tumultuous, yes. I mean, did you ever go into therapy together?
JUDD: Oh, for about 20 years.
BEHAR: Really?
JUDD: Seriously.
BEHAR: You gave it a shot?
JUDD: I gave it a shot. I think we built many wings on to the institutions of healing and recovery. Our life coach literally went with us to do Oprah and he said, you guys, are doing so well. You know, it`s OK for you to be in public without me. And we decided to tour because our healthy relationship is -- well, it`s better than it`s ever been.
BEHAR: I see. You know, sometimes, you just have to work at these things.
JUDD: You have to show up.
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: And agree to disagree.
BEHAR: That`s right.
JUDD: And we did so today. And, you know, I shot her a couple of looks and she poked me a couple of times. And I thought making little notes for our next meeting of boundaries. You know, we`re working progress. We`re about progress, not perfection. So, we show the fans and the audience if we can do it, anybody can. You just have to continue to show up. I mean, look at that dress. Look at that woman, prissy butt, you know, dancing on stage. She`s so cute.
BEHAR: She is cute.
JUDD: The older I get, the smarter she is. It`s awesome.
(LAUGHING)
BEHAR: Let`s show the thing from the Ralph Emery Show. I want to hear the music. Take a look at this.
JUDD: Oh my, gosh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING) We didn`t have much money. I was rich as I could be in my coat of many colors my mama made just for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Look at you at 19 or 20. How old were you then, right?
JUDD: I was literally like 18, 17.
BEHAR: What do you think when you see that?
JUDD: Oh, crap.
BEHAR: Is it weird? You look beautiful. You look beautiful now.
JUDD: No. You know what, it was like 6:00 in the morning. I didn`t have to go to high school. Duh.
BEHAR: Yes. You loved that.
JUDD: I was ready to be a rock star.
BEHAR: But you`ve had rocky road. I mean, a lot of your stuff -- first of all -- but the one thing I noticed also was that when you were kid, you were growing up in Kentucky without a TV or a phone. You know what, I didn`t have a TV either when I was growing up in Brooklyn.
JUDD: Thank God.
BEHAR: But I mean, were you very poor, is that why?
JUDD: We were poor in terms of, you know, I mean, we were living this genteel poverty. My mother was always creative. We always had what we needed. We had food stamps. You know, she was studying to be a nurse. You know, the bio reads pretty consistently that we went from welfare to millionaire, you know, like overnight. So, it`s a crazy story.
BEHAR: Isn`t that the dream?
JUDD: It is. Absolutely.
BEHAR: But that`s the dream that a lot of politicians have and they said, oh, everybody is going to do what The Judds did. And that`s not true.
JUDD: Well, I just know that it was a destiny thing. Seriously, all I had if people keep thinking this is magic solution to being poor. All I can tell you is this, we`re part of this incredible story of rags to riches, and people look at us and go, even though I don`t listen to country music, your relationship.
They look at Ashley as an actress. I mean, we`re the American dream. And so, going from poverty to the White House, I mean, hello, we`re singing on the wall in Washington, D.C. We`re, you know, on all these tours that have just been record selling, you know.
BEHAR: It`s very Abraham Lincoln. He went from poverty to the white house.
JUDD: That`s one of my favorite stories of all time, by the way.
BEHAR: Yes. Now, I read that growing up, you didn`t know who your real father was.
JUDD: I didn`t find out about my real father until I was 30 and pregnant with Elijah.
BEHAR: How did you find out?
JUDD: We were in counseling and my sister told me.
BEHAR: Your sister --
JUDD: She`s known since she was 11.
BEHAR: So, Ashley had -- you were raised by Ashley`s father?
JUDD: Uh-huh, biological father.
BEHAR: So, she knew?
JUDD: Everybody knew but me.
BEHAR: Well, that`s odd.
JUDD: Beyond odd.
BEHAR: How did that make you feel?
JUDD: I went through a real dark night of the soul. And the only thing that I think kept me going was that I had life growing inside of me and I knew who Elijah is in terms of a Judd side. I did go through a period of questioning, who am I, and then all of a sudden, I literally stepped into this -- OK no keyhole thinking here. I had to think universally that I know who my heavenly father is.
I had to go through this whole process with realizing that it`s not just about, you know, being a sperm donor. This is about -- OK. This is your story. And you`re going to have to be better, not bitter. Figure it out. And I had to go into this process of mourning.
BEHAR: I mean, it`s a little bit odd. And your mother should have told you probably, right?
JUDD: You know, I questioned that a lot and I finally did some work around that and I realized that in her defense, she didn`t know what to do. And sometimes, when people don`t know what to do, they hold secrets. Secrets keep you sick. You know, we hear that all that time, and our recovery --
BEHAR: Right. But Ashley had to hold the secret, too, which sort of impairs your relationship with your sister, too.
JUDD: Well, I tell you what it does. It holds people hostage. And when the truth was told, it set us free. And I could now step into, you know, who it is that I am and embrace that and make peace with -- listen, we did the song "grandpa." You know, my sister`s biological grandparents raised me. I think everyone knew that it would devastate me.
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: And they were putting it off. So, that I could be older when I found out, maybe to handle it better. I`ve questioned everything.
BEHAR: Right.
JUDD: But I do know this that the work I`ve done has propelled me into this great place of acceptance. And they say the five stages of grief are denial, bargaining, -- what`s the next one, hello -- anger and sadness. You go through that and then you accept it and then you surrender it.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross on "Death and Dying."
JUDD: Absolutely.
BEHAR: As a lot of things apply to that particularly --
JUDD: I`m a walking monologue when it comes to things that I -- words that I literally hold like the best revenge is living well. What am I going to do with this information? Am I going to be a victim or victor? And I had to make that decision for myself, Joy. I had to sit there and go. I can laugh about it and make jokes or I can really face it and walk through it and go in the wilderness and yell at God and say, why, or I can go. OK. This is what it is.
BEHAR: Yes, but you have suffered over the years.
JUDD: Yes, I have. And I wrote a book about it, and ironically, it`s a best seller. So, how interesting is that? I mean, everybody sees themselves in me. I see myself in the fan. They relate to me.
BEHAR: Well, people have issues. People have difficulties.
JUDD: No kidding.
BEHAR: As you said, there are lots of secrets and lies in family so they can relate and identify --
JUDD: I thank God I found out when I did because I was pregnant with Elijah and I put all of my love and all of my truth into promising my son and my daughter that I would not do that. So, do you see what I`m saying?
BEHAR: I do.
JUDD: You learn from it.
BEHAR: You should learn from it, and you did it. OK. We`re just getting started with Wynonna Judd. Back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING) No one else on earth could ever hurt me. Break my heart the way you do. No one else on earth was ever worth it. No one could love like you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with country superstar, Wynonna Judd. You know, you look great. You lost weight. You you`re skinny now.
JUDD: I`ve lost my mind a couple of times.
BEHAR: But you lost -- I read that you lost 60 pounds. How did you feel?
JUDD: Believe everything you read, people.
BEHAR: Which is what?
JUDD: I don`t know if it`s 50 or 60 or 53. I don`t even know. I don`t go by numbers, seriously.
BEHAR: But how did you lose it?
JUDD: I got into a process of putting myself back on the list. I`m serious. It`s not that big of a secret, people. The word no is a complete sentence. And I literally started saying no. And I started walking. And I started saying, I would love to do that benefit and I can`t.
That was the hardest thing for me to say no, and I did. And I started taking care of myself and mattering to myself because I`m a mom. I`m raising teenagers. I`m the working mom. And I just had to say no and work less.
BEHAR: So, you`re just trying to take care of yourself instead and thinking more about yourself instead of everybody else.
JUDD: Which to women and men out there feel selfish, but we have taken the word selfish out of the equation, and we now self care.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s good.
JUDD: Thank you. Thank you.
BEHAR: I heard that you`re close to your family obviously, but you had trouble talking to them about weight. Is that because, you know, your mother and your sister are both -- neither one of them seems to have a weight problem.
JUDD: It`s because they can buy off the rack.
BEHAR: Bitches (ph).
JUDD: Don`t get me started.
(LAUGHING)
BEHAR: People who can ride off the rack are annoying.
JUDD: Bless their hearts. OK. Here`s the deal. I`m so close to my family. We live on the same farm. We are so close. And I think we had to sort of, you know, separate and redo the contract and say, OK, this is what works for me. And I told Oprah literally on her show that this is what I learned.
"That doesn`t work for me" is one of the greatest lines I have ever heard and learned and used in my family. I just had to start saying, you know what, I`m not you guys. I`m a different bird. I`m the rebel. I`m sort of the black sheep, whatever. All those diagnoses, you know.
BEHAR: So that doesn`t work for me. You know Star Jones. You know Star when she was --
JUDD: Very well.
BEHAR: She said to me, she uses this one, my needs have changed. I thought that was very good.
JUDD: Because it`s about me doesn`t make you, you know -- it just means I need this because I`m working on something. And you don`t have to agree with it, but this is what I need. They`re still going to think you`re crazy.
BEHAR: Yes, they will.
JUDD: But at least you stood up for yourself.
BEHAR: Now, you went through a painful divorce in 2007. This is a shocking story. Your husband was arrested and eventually convicted of aggravated sexual battery against a minor under the age of 13. What the heck was that about?
JUDD: It was about betrayal for me.
BEHAR: Is this the case of you think you know somebody and then you really don`t.
JUDD: No. It`s about addiction.
BEHAR: What was he addicted to?
JUDD: I can`t talk about this recovery. I can`t tell you this, Joy, that I -- I just want to be really clear that I`ve talked about it already so I can`t go into it again because I promised myself I wouldn`t be labeled the victim of -- and because I`ve done so much healing work around it. And I just know this. I know that there`s good in everybody. And when someone`s addicted, they are not their disease.
And some people in their disease do things -- I`m a Judd not a judge. I know that`s a one-liner but that`s my story. And I`ve moved on. And my kids are healthy. I`m healthy-er. And I`ve moved on. And my music is new. I`ve got this new attitude. I`m surprising everyone I go see who`s known me for a long time.
They`re be like, how did you do this? I did it with brain state. Go online, brainstate.com. I did it with, you know, Alli (ph) helped me in the beginning. You know, you and I both done things to get started. But you know what, I am -- I`m just always -- one thing about me, I`m a seeker. And I`m always trying to find new ways to do my music, whether it`s Cracker Barrel or I`m teaming up with my mom. If you look at me, you see someone who`s always trying to do the next right thing.
BEHAR: But you work on things, I think.
JUDD: Heck, yes.
BEHAR: A lot. I mean, is it hard for you to trust men now?
JUDD: No.
BEHAR: It`s not.
JUDD: No. It`s hard for me to trust myself sometimes, but I have this wonderful --
BEHAR: In what way? What do you mean by that?
JUDD: Because I think growing up in the music industry, you`re so diagnosed and told who you are. You have to figure -- you have to unlock your own mythology and say, no, I`m not. No, I`m not.
BEHAR: People telling you who you are?
JUDD: Yes. And so, I think I finally at the age of 46 say, no, thank you. I will not accept that.
BEHAR: Are you dating now?
JUDD: Oh, yes. You should see me.
BEHAR: I`m looking at you.
JUDD: I`m really something.
BEHAR: Now, this summer you had not one but two near-death experiences.
JUDD: Why not?
BEHAR: What happened?
JUDD: Let`s just make it drama all the way.
BEHAR: So, what happened to you?
JUDD: Go big or go home. Well, I almost died from a blood clot through my heart, which the thing that saved me was, ironically, my lungs, which, you know, I`ve been complaining about the music industry for 25 years. The very thing that sometimes in my life I loath was the thing that saved me. Isn`t that ironic that my lungs held on to the clot? It didn`t push it back through my heart. I`m still here. The doctors say I`m 1 out of like a million people.
BEHAR: Then you had a head-on collision crash?
JUDD: I didn`t have a head-on. He had a head-on, and I was in the car going -- you know. It was crazy.
BEHAR: Who`s he?
JUDD: I have no idea. This man came across the lane. And my daughter`s in the car. And I saw her fly. And my road manager was driving. And I heard her say, oh, no. And it`s like a movie. It`s like a slow motion thing. I walked away from it. I was on stage the next three nights with a broken rib and hematoma. And these people go and, you can`t leave the hospital. I`m like, watch me.
Because I`ve got a job to do. I`m just one of those people who says I can`t be stuck in this anymore. So, I`m going to go tour with my mother. You know, talk about crazy.
(LAUGHING)
JUDD: Let`s talk about that. The wrecks and all that`s nothing. You get a bus. You get on the road with your mother for ten years and call me. Then tell me how it went.
BEHAR: That is a rough one. A lot of people could not do it.
JUDD: But we`re so great. We`re so great. We`ve got new music coming up. We`ve got, you know, this tour, 18 or 20 cities. You know, go on wynonna.com or the Judds tour. It`s a universal message which is hope. I mean, you just going to have something to --
BEHAR: Do you want to put Ashley in the singing mix? Does she sing?
JUDD: She does sing.
BEHAR: She does. Is she good?
JUDD: I think she`s good. I think she`s -- she sang for me -- you know, your voice changes. So, I haven`t, you know, heard from her in a couple of years. But when I first heard her sing, I thought, she has a voice, but she`s very smart, because there`s only road for one Judd on the bus now. Just like, you know, I go see her on set, and I`m very respectful if that`s --
BEHAR: You don`t want to be an actress?
JUDD: I`m an actress.
BEHAR: But I mean, would you like to be in a movie like her? She`s a movie actress.
JUDD: Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know what, I have respect for her, and it`s sort of her thing. So, I walk behind her, not in front of her. I try very hard to respect, you know, mom that she`s, you know, older and wiser and more experienced, and yet, I`m the lead singer. I can hold my own, but I have that respect.
BEHAR: You know, you three are very talented, all three of you, but don`t you think it`s because but you`re all pretty also that you`re so successful? You`re all very pretty.
JUDD: No. I don`t.
BEHAR: OK. Never mind.
JUDD: Never mind. Next page, Joy. I look at that picture and I don`t see myself that way. Anybody knows -- I`ve never thought of myself as pretty. I can be honest with you here. I`ve thought of myself as very gifted with something that isn`t mine.
BEHAR: You`re all pretty. You`re all pretty. All three of you. Stop it.
JUDD: I can work a room (ph) if I have to.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll be back with more, yes more, from Wynonna Judd in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with Wynonna Judd, half of country`s music most beloved duo, The Judds. I have Twitter questions for you. You know, people like to write and then answer their own question (ph). So, let me hit you with a few, right?
JUDD: Bring it.
BEHAR: Wynonna and Naomi are not your real names. What are they and why did you change them?
JUDD: First of all because I can. This is America. And I was 12 and I knew everything. I knew I needed a new name for a new attitude and a new guitar. I`m serious. I walked in and literally said, mom, my name was Christina. Read the book.
BEHAR: That`s a pretty name, Christina. Yes. And what was Naomi`s name?
JUDD: Diana. She was born Diana, which is pretty but not prissy enough. So, when I changed mine, my mother changed hers, and now, we`re (INAUDIBLE)
BEHAR: OK. Are you aware you have a huge gay following?
JUDD: Are you kidding me? It`s the highlight for me. Halloween, I`m like how many men are going to be me for Halloween. That`s all I care about.
(LAUGHING)
BEHAR: I think a lot.
JUDD: That`s when you know you`ve really made it. It`s so amazing that people like impersonating, I`m like yes, I`ve made it.
BEHAR: I think you`re competing with Snooki.
JUDD: I can take her -- is it a girl? I can take her with one hand- tied behind my back.
BEHAR: You don`t know who`s Snooki is, she`s the one with that thing on her head and "the situation." "The Jersey Shore."
JUDD: I got a situation.
BEHAR: I can`t believe she never heard of him. I love you even more for that.
JUDD: I don`t watch TV. I know about your show and the orgasm show is the only one I`ve ever seen.
(LAUGHING)
JUDD: I`m serious.
BEHAR: OK.
JUDD: You just needed to know that.
BEHAR: I`m happy that you watch my show. Now, last year, this person says, not me, you got a lot of flack for saying it was too soon for Taylor Swift to be winning entertainer of the year? Do you regret saying that? Is she ready now? (INAUDIBLE) Taylor Swift. No. Kidding.
JUDD: I wrote her a letter, by the way. Here`s the deal. They only got part of the story. If you walk around the corner and you hear somebody say the last part of the sentence. That`s what the press did. They didn`t hear the beginning about me saying, listen. It`s like winning an Oscar at age 12. What`s next? I said, too much, too fast. I wasn`t upset that she won. I wasn`t jealous.
I have plenty of awards, thank you. I was simply saying, where do you go from here? What`s next for her? Prom? I was making a joke. I was being funny? I was being light-hearted. I was saying, what do you do when you`re Taylor Swift and you`re 18, and you`ve done it all? what do you do? And everybody thought that I was being, you know, unkind. And that was not my point. They didn`t understand the whole snippet. I mean the whole story. They just got snippet and took that in the press went with it.
BEHAR: Well, of course, you know.
JUDD: Shocking.
BEHAR: I know. I know. What would you be doing if you weren`t an award-winning singer?
JUDD: You want to know the truth?
BEHAR: Yes.
JUDD: I`d probably be in either prison or I would be in a life of absolute despair, because I`ve struggled all my life to find -- if it hadn`t been for the arts, I really honestly, Joy, don`t know that I could have made it.
BEHAR: I think you would have been a gang leader.
JUDD: I am a gang leader. You see them right there.
BEHAR: is that your gang?
JUDD: Yes.
BEHAR: All right. You know, I don`t care. Whatever you would have done, would have been OK with me.
JUDD: It wouldn`t have been great. I probably would have done something with animals because they don`t talk back.
BEHAR: Animals, they don`t talk. And they just love you.
JUDD: Yes.
BEHAR: And you`re you terrific. Thank you so much.
JUDD: You know I love you. I`ve always loved you. And you`ve always been good to me.
BEHAR: You`re a sweetheart. Be sure to see Wynonna and The Judds: The Last Encore Tour beginning in November 26 in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
Tomorrow night, my guest will be Rod Stewart. Goodnight, everybody.
END
