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Joy Behar Page
Teen Star in Treatment; Interview With Shannen Doherty
Aired November 04, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Can I just say it`s really nice to see George W. Bush and Kanye West bonding? If those two can come together, is a Menudo reunion really just a silly pipe dream in my head?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Demi Lovato in treatment for undisclosed reasons. Could being bullied at a child have played a role? Joy asks the experts is bullying is getting worse or is society just too coddling kids.
Then Heidi and Spencer are back. The famous for nothing couple may be declaring bankruptcy after burning through $10 million.
Plus, he`s the most successful comedian in America with a little help from his wooden friends. Jeff Dunham and his dummy stop by.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Earlier this week teen star Demi Lovato has quit her tour with the Jonas Brothers to enter a treatment center. Her representative says she`s seeking treatment for, quote, "emotional and physical issues". But now we are learning more about what may have provoked her abrupt departure from Le Tour Jonas.
Here now with the latest is Mark Malkin from E! Online. Mark, Lovato quit for emotional and physical reasons. Do we know any more specifics? What happened there?
MARK MALKIN, E! ONLINE: Right now sources are telling us that Demi has struggled in the past with cutting and eating disorders. And then she apparently got into some sort of confrontation on a plane after her concert with one of the other dancers who she felt was telling on her because she was out late the night before.
BEHAR: So she had a little acting out? Is that why she went into the treatment center?
MALKIN: From what we are told, the sources are telling us that this sort of the catalyst. She realized, you know what, I have a problem, I have to deal with it. I don`t want it to get any worse, so she went into treatment.
BEHAR: I see. Were there any hints that she was going down this destructive path before that?
MALKIN: You know, in terms of the public, we did not know. People didn`t know. People had no idea. She always seemed like very stable, very happy, doing just fine. But what we are learning now is in the past she did apparently have issues with cutting, eating disorder and also bullying.
BEHAR: Yes.
MALKIN: She`d been outspoken about bullying and being bullied in high school.
BEHAR: Right. That`s true. And there is another teen star Selena Gomez, she`s speaking out about her bullying problems, too. It seems like this is on the rise. What about her?
MALKIN: You know, Selena Gomez again, she`s another Disney star who`s absolutely amazing. I know Selena very well. She`s absolutely stable and just fine, but she has spoken about when she`s gone back home and gone back to school, people would bully her. They tease her.
What happens with a lot of these child stars is they are living this Hollywood life and then they go back to sort of their regular life and you know kids could be mean and kids could be jealous.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok. Thanks very much, Marc, for the update.
Now Demi Lovato has been talking about bullying and its impact on her for a while now. She talked to Ellen DeGeneres about her experience back in 2008. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMI LOVATO, TEEN STAR: I never really understood why it was at the moment. Looking back, I had a different lifestyle than everyone else and, you know, whether it was because of my hair color or whatever the reason was, I pinned it on myself. One day I wanted help with bullying. Because there`s girls that can`t just up and run from school (INAUDIBLE) --
ELLEN DEGENERES, TALK SHOW HOST: Right. Is that what you did? You left school because it was that bad?
LOVATO: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Why does bullying seem like such an epidemic now? With me to help get some answers are Susan Lipkins, a psychologist and bullying expert; Marc Lamont Hill, professor of cultural anthropology and education at Columbia University, and the host of "Our World" with Black Enterprise.
Marc, Demi said she was bullied mercilessly as a child. It seems like bullying stays with you for a long time. How long can it take to recover from something like that when you`re a child?
MARC LAMONT HILL, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: You know, some people never recover from bullying. You see people who can`t have healthy relationships, who fail at marriage, who can`t get a good job, who have low self-esteem and who may even do damage to themselves later in life because they never recovered from the trauma of being, you know, heckled and teased and bullied as young children.
BEHAR: Well, that`s interesting Susan. I mean even if you`re not bullied by your -- if you are bullied by your parents I can see the trauma. But if the girls are bullying you but if you have a strong sense of yourself does it really last into your adulthood?
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it really depends on what the kind of bullying is and how long it`s been going on and who you are beforehand. But research shows that if you have been bullied significantly for two weeks, the chemicals in your brain are actually changing.
BEHAR: For two weeks?
LIPKINS: For two weeks. So you know, people do -- are affected by bullying and it leads to depression, as we see, even suicide.
BEHAR: Wow, two weeks.
LIPKINS: Two weeks.
HILL: Yes.
BEHAR: You know what, now we`re finding out that Demi may have punched a girl on the tour, you heard before. Does the bullied become the bully? It`s like the abused becomes the abuser?
LIPKINS: Not always. But very often the victim does become a bully. They have had enough. They have lost themselves. It`s gone over the top. And now they do unto others what has been done to them.
BEHAR: Right. I guess they would rather identify with the bully than the victim.
LIPKINS: You would rather be the bully than victimized.
HILL: Exactly.
BEHAR: Rather be the hammer than the nail as they say in the song.
LIPKINS: But you know, even bystanders are affected when they watch a victim. They themselves feel like they could be victimized and they are afraid of that. There is a trauma that they experience as well.
BEHAR: Second-hand bullying --
LIPKINS: Second-hand bullying.
BEHAR: Like second-hand smoke.
HILL: Exactly.
BEHAR: Marc, we heard the story of Tyler Clementi recently. He was the Rutgers student who jumped off a bridge after his roommate broadcast his sexual encounter with another man.
HILL: Right.
BEHAR: Now, how do you know when bullying is that severe that a kid would want to kill himself because of it? That`s extreme.
HILL: That is extreme and obviously, you know, given the nature of homophobia in this country and the nature of digital or Internet bullying, all that was a really dangerous and fatal mix.
But really, you don`t know what the limits are. Things that we think are minor that don`t affect people in grand ways actually can end up causing suicide. Heckling somebody over their weight, being too skinny, too small, making fun of the size of someone`s head; I mean things that we might think of as ordinary childhood teasing can lead to suicide.
It can lead to depression because sometimes the kids who are getting teased are the ones who are already vulnerable, the ones who are already seen as weak. I mean they`ll already be struggling with issues.
And then also, it may not be struggling with issues and this may produce a trauma that then gets compounded later in life. So you just don`t know. It`s better to say no bullying than to think that some kinds of bullying are acceptable and other kinds of bullying lead to dangerous outcomes.
BEHAR: Of course. Absolutely. I totally agree with that.
But you know, Susan, what are you supposed to do? Let`s say a kid is watching the show even though they should be asleep. But if someone bullies you and let`s say you`re 12 years old. Should you stand up to them, should you cry, should you run, should you tell your parents, your teachers? What are you supposed to do?
LIPKINS: Well, you are supposed to own your space and know that you have the right to be there. And that you should -- the first thing you should do is say "no" to the bully, firmly and with non-verbal signs as well as verbally.
BEHAR: What if they are hitting you?
LIPKINS: Well -- the second is to report it as quickly as possible to all the authorities. And you just keep on reporting it until you get somebody to pay attention to you.
And the third is to have a group of bystanders or friends who you are with and never to be alone. Try to be with a group of kids and not be isolated, shy, alone, off in the corner. You know, not to repeat that sense of being a victim over and over.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean I remember -- ok, go ahead I`m sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead Marc.
HILL: I was going to say, I think it`s really important to encourage the bystanders to participate. Only 11 percent of people actually intervene when a bully does something. What we find is that when people intervene, bullies back down. Bullies don`t like when other people jump in. Bullies don`t like when people stand up to them.
Just having a group of people stand up to the bully, it`s important to -- even if your child is not being bullied, it`s important to tell your child to help someone else who is being bullied. That can stop the whole thing from --
LIPKINS: A group has to help.
BEHAR: Right.
HILL: Right.
LIPKINS: The group of bystanders are the ones that have to --
BEHAR: But they don`t.
LIPKINS: Well, they do.
BEHAR: The kids do not.
LIPKINS: Sometimes they do if they have been trained. And that`s what my hope is that we train groups of kids to be bystanders. We have to train parents, adults and everybody else. We all have the right and responsibility to intervene and to stand up for a victim.
BEHAR: I stood up to a bully once when I was a kid. I took her fingers, I bent them and made her fall to the ground. I enjoyed that so much.
HILL: I don`t think that`s in the handbook, Joy. I don`t think that`s in the psychological handbook. I agree with you though.
BEHAR: She was pushing me hard. This girl was pushing me hard for week after week after week and finally, I snapped, as I am apt to do once in a while. And I dealt with it and she never did it again. And I learned a lot from that encounter with this girl.
LIPKINS: Right. You have to stand up for yourself.
HILL: So did the bully.
BEHAR: So did she.
LIPKINS: And you know what? I think parents have to give kids the message that it is their right to protect themselves and that they have to defend themselves.
BEHAR: It`s scary sometimes. The girl or boy could be bigger than you. And they come and start pushing you around. You don`t know what to do. It`s not right what they do to these kids.
One of the things we can talk about with Demi Lovato is that her particular case, she left school and was homeschooled because of all the bullying. Is that a good idea or should she confront?
LIPKINS: I don`t think it`s a great idea. I think that maybe she needed a different school. But if you take a kid out of the environment they`re not really going to learn. They`re not going to create the muscles that they need in order to be well-socialized, in order to not be a victim anymore and in order to stand up and hold their own.
So I wouldn`t recommend home schooling as a choice.
BEHAR: You would not?
LIPKINS: No.
BEHAR: What about the parents intervening, last word, Marc?
HILL: You know, again, it`s hard to tell parents not to protect their children whether it is putting them in home school or whether it`s jumping on a school bus and breaking up the bully. Use other methods first but if you have to do what you have to do I totally understand, within the law.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much. Thank you very much, you guys.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, reality stars Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag may be declaring bankruptcy after somehow managing to burn through $10 million.
And ventriloquist extraordinaire Jeff Dunham drops by along with his wooden friend Walter.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Miss Shannen Doherty played a bad girl on "Beverly Hills 90210," a witch in "Charmed" and now is she`s a badass which she explains in her new book, "Badass: A Hard-earned Guide to Living Life with Style and Right Attitude".
Welcome to the show, Shannen.
SHANNEN DOHERTY, ACTRESS: Thank you.
BEHAR: You know, previous to this segment we were talking about bullying.
DOHERTY: Yes.
BEHAR: And it`s a hideous thing.
DOHERTY: It is hideous.
BEHAR: And in your book you talk about the abuse you took online from people who said some very hurtful things about you. Why do you read that crap?
DOHERTY: I don`t read it anymore. Just because it -- it -- it would tear me up. It tore my self-esteem down so low it was insane.
BEHAR: Yes.
DOHERTY: And you read it and you believe it and you take it to heart. And eventually you just have to say, I -- I can`t read any of it. I can`t read the good, I can`t read the bad.
BEHAR: That`s right.
DOHERTY: All that I can do is be happy with who I am. And you know - - the -- the people who want to put you down, it`s their own issue.
BEHAR: And they`re out there.
DOHERTY: It`s their problem. It`s -- it`s -- it`s their insecurity with themselves.
BEHAR: Right.
DOHERTY: Maybe they don`t like how they look. It makes them feel better to put somebody else down.
BEHAR: That`s right.
DOHERTY: And in truth it`s what? You know 13 to 50 people`s opinions out of how many millions and millions and millions in the world?
BEHAR: The ones who are negative actually do more of the writing.
DOHERTY: Of course.
BEHAR: Yes.
DOHERTY: Well, because usually the ones who have something positive to say are too busy living an actual life.
BEHAR: Yes. Good point.
That phrase, get a life, is one of the best phrases of the 20th century.
DOHERTY: Get a life. Yes, it is?
BEHAR: Let`s talk about "Badass".
DOHERTY: That should be the name of your book.
BEHAR: Get a life. I like it. Ok. And you -- top Badasses in your book --
DOHERTY: Right.
BEHAR: By the way before we get to that. I would -- I have to --
(CROSSTALK)
DOHERTY: Did you see your name? It was number 11.
BEHAR: Am I in here?
DOHERTY: And they cut it because they said I could only have ten.
BEHAR: So who did that?
DOHERTY: You weren`t -- Random House. You should really take it up with them.
BEHAR: They have got some (EXPLETIVE DELETED) damn nerve over at Random House. I like Hyperion better. So there, you know, I happened to turn to this lovely poem that you wrote when you were seven years old.
DOHERTY: Oh, wow.
BEHAR: Listen to these guys. She says, but I want to just read a little bit of "I feel the rocks under my feet and the wet sand oozing between my toes". I guess you were on the beach. Yes, "When I`m at the beach, I feel God`s presence as I walk on the wild side." You were seven years old and you were a badass already.
DOHERTY: Seven years old, when I was predicting my life at seven. Wow. Self-fulfilling prophecy right there.
BEHAR: You`re walking on the wild. Wow, yes. Can you remember what you were thinking in the 2nd grade? And you won 1st price by the way.
DOHERTY: I did. I do remember I was living in Palace Radiance Estate (ph) at the time we had just moved -- moved to California from Tennessee. And there was this poetry contest at my school. And I was down on the beach at Mali Coco (ph) walking and it was -- my parents and I always went to the beach. We lived right there.
And -- and I was like, mommy, I have -- I have my poem. And I -- you know, I sat down and started saying all of these things. My mom was like, ok, I`ve got some crazy kid. It`s amazing.
BEHAR: Did they put you on medication after that?
DOHERTY: Immediately. Immediately and then I went off when I was 19 and we all know what happened after that.
BEHAR: Yes we did. We do -- we don`t have to rehash all of that. Read the book.
DOHERTY: Exactly.
BEHAR: But in the book you do mention some top badasses.
DOHERTY: Yes.
BEHAR: The ones that didn`t get cut off the list.
DOHERTY: Right.
BEHAR: By Random House.
DOHERTY: But you`re in the second book. Yes.
BEHAR: Oh my "Badass 2".
DOHERTY: There are like chapters on you.
BEHAR: You have Madonna, Angelina, Lucille Ball, Drew Barrymore, Oprah Winfrey, Sandra Bullock, Katherine Hepburn, Tina Fey and Reese Witherspoon. Oh I adore her she`s such a great little actress.
DOHERTY: A classy girl.
BEHAR: I love her.
DOHERTY: Yes.
BEHAR: So what do these women have in common?
DOHERTY: Well, I think that they -- they -- they have an inner strength that you can see in all of them. There is a confidence, there is a strength; but there`s also, you know, a sense of humor and there`s also sort of this -- it`s -- it`s like they`re in on it constantly. They -- they -- they know what they`re doing. And they don`t take themselves too seriously. What -- what they do is just a job. And they enjoy life and embrace it and are compassionate.
BEHAR: Right.
I think Angelina takes herself seriously.
DOHERTY: I mean --
BEHAR: Yes.
DOHERTY: -- I think she probably takes her --
BEHAR: And Madonna she was on the --
DOHERTY: -- humanitarian work very, very seriously.
Madonna is a badass because that is the longest -- one of the longest running careers ever; to be relevant for that long of a period of time --
BEHAR: I know.
DOHERTY: -- to constantly evolve, change.
BEHAR: She wins them constantly.
DOHERTY: She wins it`s amazing to me.
BEHAR: Yes, she`s like Thomas Edison.
I like your helpful tips in here also. I like how you get out of a speeding ticket. What did you -- tell me what you tell the cops?
DOHERTY: Well, I mean, if I was really speeding and I -- I really needed out of the ticket I would look at him and be like, I have diarrhea. I have to get home.
BEHAR: Does that work with the LAPD? Ok.
DOHERTY: Sometimes. On occasion it has worked. You know, honesty also has worked, too. I have to be honest.
BEHAR: I see, yes.
DOHERTY: I`m just turning to them and saying, I -- you know what, I`m an idiot.
BEHAR: You`re an idiot. Ok.
DOHERTY: I`m an idiot, just call me an idiot. And -- and they -- I think cops respect honesty, but they also respect a sense of humor. So when you turn the diarrhea line out, it -- it -- it can work.
BEHAR: Ok.
DOHERTY: My mom is going to be like -- I cannot believe you were talking about that on CNN with Joy.
BEHAR: Oh -- oh so much.
DOHERTY: Like that`s great.
BEHAR: It`s fun. Let`s see. I only have a minute left in the segment, but I want to know. You said that commitment is not for everybody. Now, you`ve been married twice to -- to -- for a short period - -
DOHERTY: Well, technically once. I was annulled so --
BEHAR: Which one was annulled -- you were married to Rick Solomon --
DOHERTY: The second one was annulled. Rick.
BEHAR: Rick was annulled.
DOHERTY: Yes.
BEHAR: He`s the one who made the sex tape with Paris Hilton. Did you ever see that?
DOHERTY: That`s what he is famous for, yes.
BEHAR: Did you ever see the tape?
DOHERTY: I watched about a minute of it and not by choice. It was -- I actually flew into New York to do press for something else and I got asked about the tape and I had no idea about it. And I was sort of bombarded with this and was clueless and a publicist at the time took me aside and said, "I have it. Do you want to see it?" And I was like, what. she was like, I really think you should see it. And I -- I maybe watched ten seconds and got instantly ill. And --
BEHAR: What made you sick? The acrobatics?
DOHERTY: I -- I think the two people starring in it might have had something to do with it. And at the time --
BEHAR: It`s not exactly -- yes --
DOHERTY: -- it`s not exactly what you want to see.
BEHAR: It`s not George Clooney and Angelina Jolie.
DOHERTY: Right. Right.
BEHAR: It`s these two.
That was not right what he did. He did that behind her back, too.
DOHERTY: There are two sides to every story. I`m not defending him for anything in the world, but there`s always two sides.
BEHAR: There`s always two sides.
All right. We`re going to have more with the lovely Shannen Doherty in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Shannen Doherty. You know, I have twitter questions for you. Your fans are out there, your legions of fans. Number one question, "Would you pose for "Playboy" again, please?"
DOHERTY: Please? No, I wouldn`t.
BEHAR: You wouldn`t do it again?
DOHERTY: No.
BEHAR: How old were you when you did that?
DOHERTY: The first time I did it I actually didn`t know I was doing it. It was for a coffee table book and then I showed up on the cover. I was like, huh, that`s interesting. I guess I should get paid.
BEHAR: What do you mean photo for a coffee table book?
DOHERTY: It was for a coffee table book and all the money was going to AIDS. I thought it was for a really good cause. And then it ended up being in "Playboy". And I was a little flabbergasted by that, needless to say.
BEHAR: Oh.
DOHERTY: And then the second time I did it and because I got to pick my photographer and the paycheck was great. I`m not going to lie. It looked like to me "Italian Vogue". You saw less in my "Playboy" than you do in "Italian Vogue".
BEHAR: You don`t want to do it again?
DOHERTY: No.
BEHAR: Why not?
DOHERTY: Well, I`m older.
BEHAR: So what? You could pull it off. Do the words "air brushing" ring a bell?
DOHERTY: Yes. But you know, it`s always scary when somebody doesn`t air brush you.
BEHAR: Well, they always air brush. Those girls are not so perfect.
DOHERTY: True. But you know what? I`m now at the age where I want kids and I want kids sooner rather than later. I would rather that be a little bit further in the past in my children`s lives than in the present.
BEHAR: Do you have a guy or a sperm donor?
DOHERTY: I do. Both.
BEHAR: I like when they are both in one package.
DOHERTY: Yes. It`s good. Oh, was it supposed to be in one package?
BEHAR: So much more convenient.
DOHERTY: He`s right over there actually.
BEHAR: Is he?
DOHERTY: He`s like, uh, yes, one package.
BEHAR: Come over here. Let`s see who he is.
DOHERTY: Like, I`m not going on TV.
BEHAR: Everyone wants to see what you look like. He looks like a lumberjack.
All right. Plastic surgery, would you ever consider it?
DOHERTY: Yes.
BEHAR: You would. Of course.
DOHERTY: Maybe eventually yes. Maybe I would. You know maybe a tummy tuck after I`ve had, you know, four kids and I can`t lose the weight.
BEHAR: Four?
DOHERTY: Or three.
BEHAR: Are you ready for that, sperm donor?
DOHERTY: He wants six. That`s scary.
BEHAR: He wants six.
DOHERTY: My brother has seven. So I think maybe they`re trying to compete or something. Yes.
I think that there is a time and a place for everything. To me, there is something slightly unnatural about it. And I would never mess with my face.
BEHAR: No.
DOHERTY: Because this is me --
BEHAR: Botox, nothing?
DOHERTY: Not yet.
BEHAR: Not yet.
DOHERTY: Maybe. Maybe.
BEHAR: Believe me. You will.
DOHERTY: Yes. Of course.
BEHAR: It comes to all of us.
DOHERTY: Yes. It`s there. I have had people suggest that I get it.
BEHAR: Now? No, no. You`re perfect now.
DOHERTY: I just ignore it.
BEHAR: You should ignore. You`re beautiful. You don`t need it right now. Do you still talk with your ex-husbands?
DOHERTY: No.
BEHAR: One of them was annulled. Rick Solomon, we know what a jerk he is.
DOHERTY: Right. No. There is no reason to stay in touch.
BEHAR: And what about the son of George Hamilton? You were married to him?
DOHERTY: Yes, I mean super short. I was incredibly young. I don`t - - we don`t know each other. We didn`t know each other then much less now. That`s usually the case.
BEHAR: All right, Shannen. Was this fun for you?
DOHERTY: It was really fun. I was like, oh, it`s CNN, it`s going to be so serious.
BEHAR: Oh, please, this is HLN. This is news & views, baby.
DOHERTY: I love it. I`m here whenever you need an extra desk. Somebody drops out. I`m here in my sweats.
BEHAR: Thank you. The book is called "Badass".
We`re back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, ventriloquist extraordinaire, Jeff Dunham, drops by along with his puppet, Walter. Now back to Joy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Kanye West understands George W. Bush, the former president, told Matt Lauer the all time low of his presidency was when Kanye implied he was a racist. Kanye responded to that in a radio interview yesterday. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, SINGER: I definitely can understand the way he feels to be accused of being a racist in any way because the same thing happened to me, you know, where I got accused of being racist. For both situations, it was basically a lack of compassion that America felt in that situation.
You know, with him, it was lack of compassion with him not rushing, you know, him not taking the time to rush down to New Orleans. With me, it was a lack of compassion of, you know, cutting someone off in their moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes, interrupting a pop star and not responding to a drowning city are very similar. Here now to discuss this and much more are correspondents of "Extra," AJ Calloway, actress Jaime-Lynn Sigler, and comedian, Kevin Hart. Kevin, let me start with you. Do you see the similarities?
KEVIN HART, COMEDIAN: Yes, I do. I do.
BEHAR: Tell me.
HART: Well, the reason why Kanye was accused of being a racist is because the microphone was white. When you snatch a white microphone out of a white person`s hand, it`s the last thing you can do as a black man. So, I definitely understand where he`s coming from, you know? Honestly, his situation is a lot worse than George Bush`s to me, you know? Honestly, Taylor Swift is a small innocent white woman that (INAUDIBLE) black man`s tragedy.
BEHAR: OK. We`re looking, by the way, while you were speaking, we`re looking at some footage from MTV when he got up and snatched the mike.
HART: It was black and white. I just saw.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: But, Jamie, what do you think? I mean, Kanye`s a little self- absorbed here, isn`t he?
JAIME-LYNN SIGLER, ACTRESS: Well, I mean, I can kind of sort of understand what he`s trying to say. I think he`s apologizing for a lot of things. I think he acts out in inappropriate ways or he has.
BEHAR: Kanye or George Bush?
SIGLER: Well, one at a time. But I think with George Bush, I mean, you know, his comment that it really hurt him, it`s sort of a human thing. I mean, you can understand -- you know, when you`re a public figure, obviously, especially the president, everything you do is going to be questioned or judged. But when somebody really questions your character, that really hurts. So, I can understand how that can be.
BEHAR: I can understand that, but you can keep that to yourself, I think, if you`re the president.
SIGLER: Right.
BEHAR: And say instead, the lowest point was not for me, it was for the Katrina victims. You know, you could say that. Oh, it`s about me. He called me a racist. You know what I mean?
HART: Well, I think it should be. But, you know, you`ve got to understand. I mean, I`m definitely not a George Bush fan, so I don`t want to --
BEHAR: I would have never guessed that.
HART: Yes, I`m definitely not. But, at the same time, you know, George Bush being a man, you have to understand something. You know, George Bush was the joke of the public eye for a long time.
BEHAR: Eight years.
HART: Eight years. Exactly. As I said three hours (ph) right now. But with that being the case, you know, George Bush was made fun of constantly from his speech to his lack of knowledge on certain topics and people doing everything for him. So, the one thing he probably prides himself on not being is a racist. So, hey, talk about my language and talk about the way I do things but don`t call me a racist.
BEHAR: I`m sure he`s not a racist, George Bush. That`s a least of his problem. Kanye also said that he now connects with Bush on a humanitarian level. AJ, do you think they`ll be cutting an album together?
AJ CALLOWAY, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": It`s possible. You never know, Kanye and West. Would you buy that? I`d buy that. I can see Bush rapping with Kanye.
BEHAR: This was a good PR move for Kanye, wasn`t it?
CALLOWAY: I think, I mean, Bush made the comments and Kanye had to respond and he kind of tied it in. I think, definitely, what happened with him and Taylor Swift, he was going through a lot. He was dealing with the death of his mother.
HART: Exactly.
CALLOWAY: And it gave him time when he went away out of the public eye to actually really deal with it. And he`s a little bit more grown up now.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s talk about Cher. She`s in Vanity Fair this month, and she opened up about her son, Chaz Bono, aging in Hollywood and even Sarah Palin. This is what she said about Chaz who used to be Chastity, remember? OK. This is Cher`s speaking. "She`s a very smart girl -- boy. This is where I get into trouble. My pronounced are -- expletive." Whatever she said there. "I still don`t remember to call her him. She`s really cool about it." I mean, that`s kind of hard (ph) for Cher.
SIGLER: She`s being refreshingly honest.
BEHAR: I almost had a nervous breakdown when my daughter changed majors. So, you can just imagine.
(LAUGHTER)
HART: You what? What did you change?
CALLOWAY: She changed majors.
HART: No, I mean, to change her gender. That`s rough on a mother.
CALLOWAY: It`s harder. That`s going to be harder.
BEHAR: It`s going to be rough.
SIGLER: And she says that she can`t quite understand it, because, you know, to envision herself in a man`s body would be torture for her, but she can`t understand it, but she`s accepting it. And I think she was incredibly candid and honest. You know, she makes a mistake, she`s honest. You know, she`s not trying to put it in a perfect light. She accepts what happened.
BEHAR: You don`t think Chastity -- or Chaz rather is upset with any of this?
HART: Probably upset that she called her a girl-boy. You know, maybe that wasn`t a correct title for it. But the reason why if I was Chaz -- Chastity? The name?
SIGLER: Chaz.
CALLOWAY: Chaz.
HART: Just to be safe.
BEHAR: I meant to call you Kevin. I called you Ken.
HART: That doesn`t matter. It`s racist (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
HART: What I think, though, you know, the reason why I will take my hat off to Cher is for this reason alone. You know, to come out of the public eye and be the parent of a person going to something like this and speak on behalf of positivity on your child, I think that`s huge.
You know me, can I speak so positive about it? You know, I could be a little angry, because, you know, as a parent, I may hold myself responsible a little bit and so I think about what I did or what I didn`t do, but for Cher to be as honest as she is about it, I take my hat off to her.
BEHAR: Right. I don`t think it has anything to do with parenting. That particular factor. But now, another thing that Cher said was that she saw Sarah Palin on TV and she said, quote, "this is the end because a dumb woman is a dumb woman." Now, I mean, is she being honest or you know, does Cher care about what she said here or not?
SIGLER: She said she couldn`t tear herself away from C-span. I mean, she`s --
CALLOWAY: She`s being extremely honest. This interview, she`s so candid. And Cher doesn`t do a lot of interviews. When she speaks, she speaks the truth.
SIGLER: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
CALLOWAY: So, I think she was just being honest about her opinion as far as what she feels about Sarah Palin.
SIGLER: Cher, she doesn`t -- we don`t hear from her very often.
BEHAR: No.
HART: You don`t use the word dumb unless you mean it. You`re a dummy. When you say dumb, you`re a dummy. That`s heartfelt.
BEHAR: Talking about the Palins now. Turnout was high for this election, but someone who didn`t vote was Bristol Palin. Watch what she told the "Inside Edition."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRISTOL PALIN, SARAH PALIN`S DAUGHTER: I did not send in my absentee ballot in Alaska. I`m going to be in trouble. Sorry, mom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Is she going to get a timeout from her mom, Kevin?
HART: You know some things you just don`t say on television. That`s one of things you take to the grave with you. You lie. And that situation, you lie. Yes, I voted.
BEHAR: You mean, she should have lied that said she voted?
HART: Yes.
SIGLER: But don`t you think they would have checked it?
BEHAR: I don`t know. Can you check that?
(CROSSTALK)
HART: There`s no way to check it. You lie and you take that to the grave.
(LAUGHTER)
HART: You don`t come out and say it.
SIGLER: I feel like if your last name is Palin, people are going to figure out the way to check it.
HART: How?
SIGLER: Yes.
HART: If you`re registered, there`s no way to check--
CALLOWAY: No. They know if you sign, if you came in and voted. They can check.
SIGLER: Yes.
CALLOWAY: They can check. She shouldn`t have answered. Kevin was right. Maybe just lie about it.
BEHAR: She told the truth.
CALLOWAY: She was honest
BEHAR: She was honest like Cher.
SIGLER: Yes. We`re celebrating Cher. Why aren`t we celebrating Bristol. She was just honest.
CALLOWAY: She was honest. Give it up for honesty.
SIGLER: Kanye --
BEHAR: Isn`t it a little bit embarrassing for Sarah Palin --
SIGLER: Of course.
BEHAR: You know, who`s all about, you know, waiting the flag and being a patriotic American, and now the girl doesn`t vote.
SIGLER: You know, she`s learning the rumba. She`s busy.
BEHAR: Maybe she was voting for herself on "Dancing with the Stars."
HART: And brings it back to my point, that`s why you lie, OK? And take it to the grave.
BEHAR: I got it. I got it. Shall we switch topics because I have another thing because Meghan McCain took a swipe at Bristol for not voting. Watch what she told Leno on "The Tonight Show".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN MCCAIN, AUTHOR: If you didn`t vote in my family that was like bad news. I`ve been voting since I turned 18. I guess, it`s only important to Bristol Palin to vote for "Dancing with the Stars." I don`t know. I think a lot of women worked really hard to give us the right to vote, and I think that anyone who doesn`t vote it`s just ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, I don`t think she likes the Palins. What do you think?
HART: Sounds like (ph) she came from an abusive family.
CALLOWAY: I think she`s being honest. More honesty.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s go to our next topic. Reality couple Heidi Montag and Spencer Pratt are reportedly broke and on the verge of bankruptcy after going through $10 million. How much money did she blow in plastic surgery? The poor girl has been carved up like Germany after the war. I mean --
(LAUGHTER)
CALLOWAY: Wow, how do you really feel, Joy?
BEHAR: I`m just saying, she`s had so much plastic surgery.
HART: Important question, where did they get $10 million?
CALLOWAY: That`s $5 million a breast.
HART: How did they make $10 million?
BEHAR: That is the question. I mean, I have two jobs. I don`t have that kind of money. Where did you make that kind of money?
SIGLER: I just feel like there are people that are really going through these types of problems in our country. Like, I really hope this isn`t another publicity thing because that`s -- I mean --
BEHAR: Well, they said they were getting a divorce for publicity.
SIGLER: Of course, that`s what I`m saying.
BEHAR: Because it worked for Sandra Bullock.
SIGLER: If they`re really going through it, my apologies. I hope that things get better, but let`s be honest. I mean, the charades they`ve been putting on, I hope that they would be smarter than that.
BEHAR: I mean, there`s no other solution to --
SIGLER: Go to a club in Atlantic City.
BEHAR: They need a telethon. I got to go. I`m sorry.
SIGLER: They need a telethon. That`s exactly what they need.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, guys, very much. Check out Jamie-Lynn Sigler in "Beneath the Dark" available on demand that opening in New York at the IFC Center tomorrow and catch the hilarious Kevin Hart performing at the New York Comedy Festival this weekend. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest has made more money working with dummies than Nancy Pelosi. He was the top grossing live comedy act in the world last year and sold over 6 million on his DVDs. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF DUNHAM, COMEDIAN: You`re happy to be here?
WALTER: Oh, sure, better than last week.
DUNHAM: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, we were there. You didn`t like that?
WALTER: No.
DUNHAM: Why not?
WALTER: Everyone in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, looks exactly like me.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
WALTER: It`s like one giant nursing home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here with me now is Jeff Dunham, comedian, ventriloquist and author of "All By my Selves: Walter, Peanut, Achmed and Me." And joining us as well is Jeff`s partner in crime, Walter.
DUNHAM: Thank, Joy.
BEHAR: Welcome to both of you.
WALTER: Thanks, Joy. It`s a pleasure to be here. I`m a big fan of your work.
BEHAR: Thank you.
WALTER: I especially like the controversial stuff. That`s fantastic. I`m not saying -- your set is lovely. Do the folks know you`re actually on the roof at CNN?
BEHAR: No, they definitely know that.
WALTER: It`s a show on a budget. It`s fantastic.
BEHAR: How do you do that without moving your lips?
WALTER: He`s a politician. Ha, ha, get it? Oh, shut up. I don`t care.
BEHAR: So, this is how you -- what do we call you, by the way, Walter? Are you a puppet, a dummy? What?
DUNHAM: It`s OK, Walter. You can tell her.
WALTER: It`s wooden American.
DUNHAM: Right, yes.
BEHAR: A wooden American?
WALTER: That`s the politically correct -- are you married?
BEHAR: No.
WALTER: Oh, no.
BEHAR: But I have a spousal equivalent?
WALTER: Oh, you do?
BEHAR: Yes, I do.
WALTER: Well --
BEHAR: Why, are you attracted to me?
WALTER: Yes, I`m very attracted to you.
BEHAR: You`re not the only dummy who`s been attracted to me.
WALTER: You should sit on Jeff`s other knee. That`s very funny.
BEHAR: I`d break his leg.
WALTER: You know, I hit on (INAUDIBLE) this morning, it didn`t work out. So, maybe I got a shot with you now.
BEHAR: It`s possible. How long have you, two, been together, you and Jeff?
WALTER: Well, it`s not like we`re a couple. This is all professional.
BEHAR: Sure, that`s what you say.
WALTER: Yes, I know.
BEHAR: I`ve heard of kinkier things than this, believe me.
WALTER: It does come out in the book that every night Jeff has a small man in his lap.
DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Yes. Walter and I have been working together actually I built him when I was in college. So, it was about 1986 that he came about.
BEHAR: You see what he says, he built you as if he controls your entire life.
WALTER: I know it`s like talking about someone in the hospital when they`re right there. You know, doesn`t know if he`s going to make it. I`m here. Hello. You know what I`m saying?
BEHAR: He built you, you know?
WALTER: You`ve never been married, Joy?
BEHAR: I have been married.
WALTER: Oh, yes, you know how that works.
BEHAR: How what? Marriage works?
WALTER: Well, you know.
BEHAR: I tried it.
WALTER: Yes. Until death do us part. When you say that, it a sweet little vow, it eventually becomes an interesting idea.
BEHAR: Well, I will get married on my death bed because that`ll be only five minutes more from here to eternity.
WALTER: That`s really good.
BEHAR: That`s my plan.
WALTER: Can we write that down.
DUNHAM: Sure.
BEHAR: You can use that.
WALTER: Thanks.
BEHAR: You and Jeff make a lot of money together. I was reading it. And you`re on the Forbes list of big money makers. How do you feel about that?
WALTER: I don`t get a penny of it and I don`t care. I`m here for the joy of it, Joy. See how I did that?
BEHAR: Does he keep you in a box at home? What does he do with you?
WALTER: Yes, that the worst is going through security at an airport.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
DUNHAM: Oh, it`s been many times. Tell her about Birmingham.
WALTER: Birmingham, Alabama. You know, there`s a little mechanics on my head. We`re going through security there. It was on the x-ray machine, the guy looks at the screen, turns to Jeff and he goes, you got a banjo in there? Jeff goes, no, it`s a head. And the guy goes, oh, have a nice day. That`s it? That`s our security work.
BEHAR: Really, the TSA has to hear this. I hope they`re watching.
WALTER: It`s fantastic. I don`t care.
BEHAR: Now, where did you, two, meet? On like Craigslist? Man looking for puppet? I mean, what happened there?
DUNHAM: Actually, the genesis of Walter it came about because I saw Bette Davis on "The Tonight Show" very last time. She was on with Carson and I saw this woman who was speaking her mind. She didn`t care what anybody thought.
BEHAR: Bette, oh yes.
DUNHAM: What did I say?
BEHAR: Bette Davis.
DUNHAM: And I thought this is delightful. Carson loved it. It was refreshing. I thought I can have a character like this, and I came up with Walter. And I get away with a lot with him.
BEHAR: So, it`s safer to have the puppet be your mouthpiece.
WALTER: You know, he`s building a puppet for you, Joy.
BEHAR: I can use the puppet.
WALTER: Yes, you can use words like bee-yotch and get away with it.
(LAUGHTER)
WALTER: I heard about that.
BEHAR: I know. If I had the puppet saying that, I would be in less trouble.
WALTER: You`d be more of a hero. Now, you`re controversial and a hero.
BEHAR: Well, what can you do?
WALTER: Nothing.
BEHAR: Now, you, two, are together all the time. Don`t you get sick of each other?
DUNHAM: We`re all right.
WALTER: It`s a very professional relationship. We do not fraternize after the shows.
BEHAR: Oh, you don`t?
WALTER: Right.
BEHAR: But do you have any siblings, Walter? Are there other puppets?
WALTER: I don`t have siblings and other characters. Have you heard of Achmed, the dead terrorist?
BEHAR: No, I haven`t.
DUNHAM: Yes, that`s the guy that`s got me in trouble.
BEHAR: What did he do? Oh, really?
DUNHAM: Absolutely.
BEHAR: He got you into trouble?
WALTER: You haven`t heard of him? What, do you freaking live here?
BEHAR: I live in the studio.
WALTER: CNN, they`re not going to air Achmed, the dead terrorist.
BEHAR: They might. But, I mean, what did you say about Achmed?
DUNHAM: He`s basically a dead terrorist. The picture`s right there on the front of the book.
WALTER: Look at the picture, Joy. You see him right there. See on the book to your right. The book, right there. We gave it to you.
BEHAR: Oh, the book?
WALTER: The book, yes. Well, let`s see. Which one would be Achmed the dead terrorist? The one that looks like a purple alien? I`ll go with the terrorist.
BEHAR: This guy, huh? Oh, he`s a dead terrorist.
DUNHAM: Yes. So, he`s the one that`s really gotten me on the map because he came out in our DVD -- how long has it been? Three years ago now, and a lot of controversy there. We came up with a song on YouTube called "Jingle Bombs."
BEHAR: Jingle bombs?
WALTER: Yes. That went over as well as your calling you know who a beee-yotch.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You`re really hanging onto that one, aren`t you, Walter?
WALTER: You`re my favorite newscaster now because of that. I like Bill O`Reilly, but I can`t bring that up.
BEHAR: You can bring him up. Of course, you can bring Bill O`Reilly up. We bring him up all the time here.
WALTER: Do you?
BEHAR: Yes. With lunch. But listen --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Listen, I want you to cover Walter`s ears while I ask you this question. Is ventriloquism a dying art?
DUNHAM: Yes, you know what, as a serious question.
WALTER: I`m pretending not to pay attention. Yes, just like I`m watching.
BEHAR: But not for you, but for others. I mean, there aren`t a lot of ventriloquist around.
DUNHAM: No, and it`s had a bad rap for many, many years. And I`ve tried to put kind of hip fresh patina on the thing.
WALTER: Patina.
BEHAR: A patina.
WALTER: He used a big word here, Joy.
BEHAR: I used to date a guy Frank Patina.
DUNHAM: Oh, it`s nice.
WALTER: And he was completely fake?
BEHAR: He was completely fake. All right. I have to take a break now.
WALTER: The crew actually got that one.
BEHAR: They`re very good, the crew. They`re sharp as a tack. Don`t go anywhere. More with Jeff Dunham in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with comedian and ventriloquist, Jeff Dunham and his --
WALTER: Wooden American.
BEHAR: His alter ego, Walter, would you say?
WALTER: I love looking at you, Joy. It`s just -- you know, I know I`m much older, but it doesn`t matter.
BEHAR: But you`re my type, Walter. You`re the type of guy who`s coming onto me lately.
WALTER: You mean honest guys?
BEHAR: No. Guys who do reverse mortgage commercials, basically.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Those are the types that are attracted to me as I get into my dotage.
WALTER: Yes. I got it.
BEHAR: But you know what I`ll take what I can get.
WALTER: I understand.
BEHAR: So --
WALTER: So, what do you think of the health care thing?
BEHAR: Whatever.
WALTER: Yes, it`s a mess.
BEHAR: What do you think of it?
WALTER: Well, I don`t know. I mean, your health care, you get a bump, how much do you have to pay in it?
BEHAR: None of my doctors take health insurance. They do not take it.
WALTER: Ironically, to pay for my health care I had to sell a kidney. It was horrible.
BEHAR: That sucks.
WALTER: Yes, it does.
BEHAR: I hate that.
WALTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, Jeff, this book is a very intimate autobiography. What have you shared in here that people out there who know you don`t know yet?
DUNHAM: It starts when I was 8 years old, got my first dummy for Christmas and just kept going. So, basically, it`s a kid with a dream. Pretty much only in this country can this happen. And I hope when people read this they`ll understand that this has been a lifetime. It`s been 40 years on stage. As you know, in comedy, there`s ups and downs and there`s feast and famine.
And, you know, a lot of great stories and experience of the people I`ve worked with. One of my favorite pictures in there is a picture of me when I was 14 years old sitting on a couch with a reporter from the local Dallas affiliate where we lived in 1976. It was a film camera and the long-haired reporter in there is Bill O`Reilly.
BEHAR: Oh, really? No kidding? You see, it`s (INAUDIBLE) of separation.
WALTER: It`s before he was angry.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: When was that? When was he in utero?
WALTER: Utero and patina. Those are two new words for me today.
BEHAR: OK. You know, Edgar Bergen (ph), he has a beautiful daughter Candice Bergen. I love her. She`s a lovely person.
WALTER: He`s dead, you know.
BEHAR: I know Edgar Bergen passed many years ago.
WALTER: Yes (INAUDIBLE)
BEHAR: He had a - I don`t know so I say the word dummy or is that like offensive to you?
WALTER: No, you can say dummy. It`s fine. You say bitch, you can say dummy.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: He had a dummy called Charlie McCarthy. And there were two things that interesting about it. One was that Candice thought he was her brother and she had to kiss him good night. That`s a little weird, isn`t it?
DUNHAM: Right. I have three daughters. I don`t make them do that.
BEHAR: You don`t do that?
WALTER: No.
BEHAR: Candice has grown into a very intelligent woman, so it`s not a problem in case your children do that
WALTER: They have to rub me on the head.
BEHAR: Yes. The other thing is that Edgar Bergen used to be on the radio doing ventriloquism. Now, who knew whether he was moving his lips or not? It was ridiculous.
DUNHAM: Right, but what was amazing about that particularly we don`t know is that is he was very much the Seinfeld of the radio days. He had the number one radio show for years. But what`s great about that and a lot of people don`t get is the reason he was so successful was the characters and the jokes and the material were so great. I mean, it was topnotch. The writers were topnotch. And people actually thought that Charlie was a little boy actor playing the part of the ventriloquist dummies. So, that`s how great he was.
BEHAR: Isn`t that special?
WALTER: No one cares. Thanks, Jeff. So --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Listen, it`s been a pleasure actually meeting both of you. I enjoyed it very much.
DUNHAM: It`s been really great.
WALTER: Yes, it`s been greater for me.
BEHAR: And I know that we`ll meet again somewhere.
WALTER: I hope so.
BEHAR: OK. The book is called "All by Myselves: Walter, Peanut, Achmed and me." Goodnight, everybody.
END
