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Joy Behar Page
Elizabeth Smart Testifies; Preaching Tolerance
Aired November 09, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Elizabeth Smart back on the stand today confronting the man accused of kidnapping and raping her eight years ago. How has she been able to move on from her horrific nine month nightmare?
Then, a mega church pastor comes out after keeping his homosexuality a secret for 21 years. He`ll tell Joy why the rise in gay bullying pushed him to come out.
Plus, Charlie Sheen says everything is great and the infamous New York incident was just one bad night. So, is he in denial?
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: It`s been over eight years since Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped from her Utah home. But this week the now 23-year-old Smart has had to relive the nightmare all over again as she testifies against the man accused of holding her against her will for nine months.
Here now to discuss this are Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV; Marc Klaas, the father of Polly Klaas and the founder of Klaas Kids foundation; and psychiatrist, Dr. Gail Saltz.
Jean, what was the focus of today`s testimony? Tell us.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": You know, Joy really today was San Diego. They lived in some camps in Salt Lake City and then moved to San Diego in late 2002. And it`s just -- I wish I could tell you, Joy, what it`s like to sit in that courtroom and watch her testify.
She`s very soft spoken, but she really remembers everything. She just really focuses on the jury.
Here`s an example of something that was just amazing. She said that in January and February of 2002 that Brian David Mitchell, the defendant as she calls him, would often leave the camp and go into San Diego and come back. He`d always bring alcohol.
But one day he went down to San Diego and he actually found a newspaper and brought it back to the camp and that newspaper showed Elizabeth Smart, showed her parents and they had their hands in a praying position and they were with John Walsh of "America`s Most Wanted" and Mitchell showed her that and she -- the feeling it gave her inside that her parents were still looking for her.
What happened after that, she said, they moved from the lower camp to the upper camp. They moved around a lot. Every time it looked like that they were going to be found out, he would move them.
BEHAR: Wow. That`s interesting. The girl is incredible, I think. Now, today`s the second day of her testimony, right? Yesterday she focused on the kidnapping at 14 and how the defendant raped her, correct?
CASAREZ: Oh, it was amazing --
BEHAR: That was --
CASAREZ: He went into her bedroom, had a knife, told her if she said anything to anybody at that moment he would kill her and her family. He then got her out of the house. They then walked three to five hours, Joy, up the mountains and down the hills, in the ravine, in the stream beds and finally to this camp where Wanda Barzee was.
Wanda Barzee ushered her into a tent, hugged her, washed her feet, told her she had to remove her clothes and put robes on. She didn`t want to, but she said he`s going to rip your clothes off of you if you don`t do it. And then he came in the tent.
At this point it`s just her and him and he proceeded to begin to rape her. And she screamed, she fought, she said I`m just a little girl. And he said it doesn`t matter. And that was the beginning of her being sexually assaulted at some points three to four times a day, Joy, for nine months.
BEHAR: Oh my God, that poor child. Marc, is this the kind of manipulation and fear that these type of perverts, these sick people and kidnappers try to instill in these -- in the victim? To say that we`re going to kill your parents and we`re going to kill you and all that? Isn`t that what they do?
MARC KLASS, FATHER OF POLLY KLAAS: That`s exactly what they do. And in fact, in my own daughter`s case in 1993, he came into her bedroom where she was with two girlfriends. He had a butcher knife and he said if you make a sound, I`ll slit your throats. It was then manipulation from that point on.
Polly`s last words were please don`t hurt my mother and sister. You have to believe that every one of these kids goes through a similar situation. They`re young, they`re immature, they don`t know how to react. Quite frankly the best thing they can do at that point is be passive, allow this guy to have his way and hope to God your family and you will somehow be able to survive it.
BEHAR: Is there some way for this girl to get past this, do you think? Or is the damage so intense?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: You know, the damage won`t go away, but she`s getting past it. It`s really quite remarkable. Besides the fact that she`s poised and able to speak about it, she`s been functioning. She`s in Paris now.
This is a person who after being taken away and separated and traumatized for nine months has now gone away from her family to do something highly-functioning. So I think this is a remarkable example of incredible resilience.
BEHAR: A lot of times you hear stories about young girls, or even boys who are raped by their fathers.
SALTZ: Correct.
BEHAR: Or uncles.
SALTZ: Correct.
BEHAR: And they lead high functioning lives, too. But are they actually dealing with the emotions and the feelings?
SALTZ: Well, you know, that`s the question. Some people deal with this by disassociating and sort of mentally not being present. It`s hard to be high-functioning. Certainly you`re not emotionally high functioning yet.
But the fact that she`s able to talk about this and recall everything speaks to the idea that she`s not disassociating here. What she has that these other examples you`re saying don`t have, she has family. She had family beforehand, healthy, functioning, supportive, involved --
BEHAR: Yes, that helps.
SALTZ: Hugely.
BEHAR: A lot.
SALTZ: Then she went back to that. That is huge. While this was a terrible trauma that went on for quite a period of time, somebody in a home situation of abuse, it`s repeated trauma constantly.
BEHAR: And when it`s your own father it`s so -- probably the trust factor is even worse.
SALTZ: Even worse. But you know, I don`t want to minimize this. This was horrendous.
BEHAR: Jean, did Elizabeth have a reaction to seeing -- what`s his name -- Brian David Mitchell? I can`t even say his name? Did she have a reaction to seeing him in the court?
CASAREZ: You know --
BEHAR: He was there, right?
CASAREZ: Yesterday.
BEHAR: Yesterday. Yes.
CASAREZ: Well, he`s there at the beginning every morning, but he sings. He constantly sings. So the judge always says, Mr. Mitchell, you have a constitutional right to be in court, but if you keep singing I`m going to have to remove you. He keeps singing so he`s removed.
But yesterday when he walked in I saw her just follow him with her eyes -- no expression -- followed him until he sat down, started singing. Today what I saw when he was removed as he was singing, I saw her follow him, but I saw a look of disgust in her eyes.
BEHAR: Of course.
CASAREZ: As she followed him as he walked out of that courtroom.
BEHAR: That`s appropriate, I think. She should have a look of disgust. I mean, we have it.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: Marc, let me talk to you. During her testimony she said that at first she felt she could take the risk of being killed -- she said that in the testimony -- and try to escape. Then her thinking changed, I think because she decided she would do anything to survive and protect her family. Do you think it was that thinking that helped her survive?
KLAAS: Well, you know, we can look back on other survivors. We can look at Shawn Hornbeck and we can look at Jaycee Dugard who similarly found themselves rescued from their tormenters many, many years later. I think what happens is, at the beginning it`s all about fear. They`re completely and totally manipulated through fear and at some point their thinking does start to change.
It becomes more sophisticated. They find ways to cope. They find ways to live. Unfortunately for all three of them because they all three turned out to be wonderful people, they`re able to survive and move on with their lives.
BEHAR: Jean, the defense is saying that this guy is insane. Is that going to hold up? Because then they get away with it when that happens, it seems to me.
CASAREZ: It`s not over until it`s over. This would be a not guilty by reason of insanity so he`d go to a hospital but he could be released in time.
I`ve looked at the federal guidelines and standards. The jury instructions are going to be very interesting. They`re trying to say he is not responsible for any criminal actions because he didn`t know what he was doing.
BEHAR: Oh, he knew what he was doing.
CASAREZ: That it was the power from the divine being, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes, right, right.
CASAREZ: That came down and told him plurality is the way, you have to get young wives. And this is the way you do it.
BEHAR: By raping them five times a day? I think he`s not insane. I think he`s a nut. A nut is different from being insane.
SALTZ: Well, proving insanity --
KLAAS: Joy?
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: There`s a real difference between improving insanity and someone who`s highly religious and who is sociopathic and using in the name of religion their power to acquire what they want. That`s not the definition of insanity.
BEHAR: Marc, go ahead, marc. What were you going to say?
KLAAS: Here`s the problem here. This is eight years later and this poor girl and her family have to sit through this travesty of a court situation and listen to the most horrible details of her life be dissected, put under a microscope and looked at from every possible angle as his defense team tries to excuse and justify his hideous and horrible crimes against her. And the possibility exists that he will be found not guilty by reason of insanity, and that`s not fair.
BEHAR: That is not fair. It really makes me angry, something like that.
SALTZ: As I said, the burden of proof is really on the prosecution to actually prove that. There are very specific, you know, if you are insane at the time of the crime and don`t understand right from wrong and the reason for that is psychosis, then you have psychotic thinking which is so disorganized that your ability to create such an elaborate (INAUDIBLE) for months and months --
BEHAR: Yes, but he knew -- he knew enough to move her around --
SALTZ: That`s what I`m saying.
BEHAR: And escape from everybody
SALTZ: That`s exactly --
BEHAR: He knew enough for that.
SALTZ: Exactly. So I`m saying this was a very well thought out plan. Hard to say that someone like that sounds really psychotic.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Conan O`Brien returns to late night. So, how did he do?
And Charlie Sheen says he`s not panicking because he had one bad night.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Bishop Jim Swilley is the founder and pastor of Georgia`s Church in the Now, one of the nation`s most prominent mega churches. After the recent spate of gay teen suicide, this twice married father of four revealed to his congregation that he`s gay; a secret he`s been struggling from since childhood. He hopes that his coming out will save a young live.
I`m happy to welcome to my show Bishop Jim Swilley and his ex-wife associate pastor Debye Swilley. Welcome guys.
BISHOP JIM SWILLEY, PASTOR, GEORGIA CHURCH IN THE NOW: Hi Joy.
DEBYE SWILLY, ASSOCIATE PASTOR: Hi there.
BEHAR: It`s a very interesting story and very timely I think. You said that you knew when you were four years old that you were gay. How did you know first of all at four? Did you play dolls or something?
J. SWILLEY: You know everybody I`ve talked to -- and I`ve had such an outpouring. We can make you laugh but I`m trying to be serious about this.
BEHAR: I`m curious about when people say I knew I was gay at four. You don`t have a sexual feeling at that age.
J. SWILLEY: I remember a way that I looked at men.
BEHAR: At four?
J. SWILLEY: Yes. And not sexually, but the attraction was just there. I didn`t know what to call it. And in the world that I grew up in, that was -- when I did find out what that was and started hearing about it, it was made clear to me that there`s no possible way that could ever exist.
What I told my church I was given two things in my life, I didn`t ask for either one, is the call of God in my life and the other is my orientation. I didn`t ever think that those things could be compatible. And so I tried to change it. I didn`t try to hide it; I just tried to change it.
BEHAR: When did you come out? How long ago?
J. SWILLEY: Wednesday night was a week ago to my church.
D. SWILLEY: It was October 13th. No, no, no. It was October 13th.
BEHAR: So you kept this under wraps. You told your congregation.
J. SWILLEY: What happened was -- Debye and I have been married 21 years. And I told her before we got married.
BEHAR: I know I heard that. That`s interesting. Why did you marry him then?
D. SWILLEY: Because I fell in love with him. We fell in love with each other. You know and it didn`t matter to me.
BEHAR: Was there a sexual attraction?
D. SWILLEY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: For you, too?
J. SWILLEY: Initially.
BEHAR: Really?
J. SWILLEY: But at a certain point, you know, you are who you are. And at a certain point it just -- it went so against my nature.
D. SWILLEY: We had two boys, let me say.
J. SWILLEY: We obviously, you know --
BEHAR: And you had them the usual way, not --
D. SWILLEY: The usual way.
BEHAR: -- in vitro?
J. SWILLEY: It`s like if a straight person experiments with the same sex. It`s the same thing if a gay person --
BEHAR: Is it really?
J. SWILLEY: But it doesn`t change your wiring.
BEHAR: No. That`s right.
You say that most of the marriage you were like roommates. So in the initial it probably seemed to be ok to have a marriage in the usual sense, but then it became asexual to some extent?
J. SWILLEY: We had small kids and were build a ministry. In the early days we would kind of talk about it and I kept thinking, she`s going to leave and I understand. We`ll go our separate ways. Life just keeps going. Before you know it another year`s gone by, another year`s gone by.
All right, this is our situation. It`s not typical, but it`s ours and we do love each other. We want to work together.
BEHAR: Yes. You told her but you didn`t tell the congregation.
J. SWILLEY: No.
BEHAR: So how did they react when you just told them?
J. SWILLEY: It`s still new news to them. What happened was nearly two years ago Debye came to me and she said the motto of our church is real people experiencing the real God in the real world. It`s a very non- traditional church. I`ve never said anything derogatory about gay people ever so I don`t have to eat any words.
BEHAR: Good.
J. SWILLEY: She said, you know, you let everybody else be real. We have openly gay people in our church, but she said, we`re not real. And she said this is because of your message.
BEHAR: So you basically -- you pushed him a little.
D. SWILLEY: Absolutely.
J. SWILLEY: I told her, you know you`re outing me. Because if we`re going to still work together and be amicable, then people will say, why don`t we just stay married?
And she said I`m never going to hurt you. I`ve always got your back. And we basically -- she`s still at church, she`s the CFO of the whole corporation -- brilliant woman.
So a lot of people, because it`s a mega-church and not a community church a lot of people saw us as church and it didn`t even register that we were divorced.
BEHAR: Basically you decide this is not real?
D. SWILLEY: No, no, no. Actually I was thinking about this today because somebody actually used the words our marriage was a sham. And it was not a sham.
BEHAR: Who said that?
D. SWILLEY: Just, you know, people coming back with really horrible things to say.
BEHAR: So they were suspicious of you?
D. SWILLEY: Just after all we`ve said and done and he`s come out, they`re like, their marriage is a sham.
BEHAR: Afterwards. Not before. They didn`t suspect?
D. SWILLEY: No. In fact -- no. Literally they would think we had the most perfect marriage ever.
J. SWILLEY: They`d come and say, I want a marriage just like yours. I would think, I don`t know if you do.
D. SWILLEY: You might rethink that one. The thing is we worked that out. The point is that no, I wanted him to -- what I saw, Joy, more than anything was he was regressing, not progressing.
BEHAR: In what way?
D. SWILLEY: Because of the message, because of our message and the inclusion of our message. It`s just -- he began to withdraw and he just -- I think he was tormenting himself because of the message. It was like he was allowing everyone else the freedom.
BEHAR: It`s hard to be in the closet. I think it must be a very, very difficult thing to do.
D. SWILLEY: Especially when you`re preaching a message for them to be free.
J. SWILLEY: If you`re hiding behind a religious facade it`s easy. But in a ministry like ours where I`m very transparent --
D. SWILLEY: Encouraging everyone.
J. SWILLEY: You end up -- you don`t realize it but you`re outing yourself by what you`re preaching.
D. SWILLEY: So we`re living a dual life.
BEHAR: I understand.
Let me ask you about Ted Haggard. He`s a friend of the show. He`s on the show. You might have seen the interviews I`ve done with him.
J. SWILLEY: I have.
BEHAR: He seems like a lovely guy. He left his mega church also after a gay sex scandal and he comes on the show and says therapy has freed him of his gay urges. Do you buy that?
J. SWILLEY: I don`t know Ted Haggard.
BEHAR: Is it possible?
J. SWILLEY: I don`t see how that`s possible.
BEHAR: You don`t?
J. SWILLEY: Years ago I was involved -- not a typical conversion therapy, but we -- see I come from like a Pentecostal charismatic background, so we believed in deliverance and casting out demons and that sort of thing.
Back in the day we had people coming to us when I worked with my father. We -- our church was in the middle of the gay community. People would come and they would want to be delivered. So we would take them through that, you know. We would pray for them and get them married off, whatever.
BEHAR: Yes.
J. SWILLEY: I wrote about this in one of my books a few years ago. I said every one of those people now, they`re gay, openly gay, it didn`t change anything. I`m not saying that he`s lying. I`m just saying, if someone came to me and said do you think that`s possible, I would say no.
BEHAR: So it`s not a preference?
J. SWILLEY: Not at all.
BEHAR: It`s not a preference. That`s what people --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll continue this discussion in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Bishop Jim Swilley who recently came out as a gay man and his ex-wife Debye Swilley. You were married a long time so it`s almost like -- I don`t feel like saying ex-wife anymore.
D. SWILLEY: Thank you. That`s good.
J. SWILLEY: Good.
BEHAR: Because you know, you went through stuff together. You knew the truth. It was not a sham, the marriage.
J. SWILLEY: In my head she`ll always be my wife.
BEHAR: Right.
Ok. Now, your church preaches inclusion -- I`ll ask this of either one of you -- and tolerance. But a lot of churches don`t. A lot of churches say hateful things about gays. What part of "God loves all his children" do they not get some of these churches?
J. SWILLEY: Well, if you come from a legalistic interpretation of the scripture you try to line up certain --
BEHAR: The Bible?
J. SWILLEY: Yes, with reality, the reality of life, but the fact is people pick and choose which things they want to crop up.
BEHAR: Exactly. Isn`t it a sin to eat shellfish in the Bible? Why aren`t they anti-lobster?
J. SWILLEY: Exactly.
BEHAR: I ask you that question.
J. SWILLEY: Proverb says put a knife to your throat if you`re given to gluttony. I`ve never seen a fat person cut their throat. Even Paul -- I love Paul -- I preach mostly out of his epistles but he endorsed slavery. He said, you know, if you`re a slave and you have a master, don`t even try to be free.
So with those situations, even very conservative Christians were able to look it and say, ok we`ll, that`s not applicable now but this.
But for some reason homophobia just plays right into a certain --
BEHAR: Why, why?
J. SWILLEY: I think it has to be fear. I think --
BEHAR: Of their own homosexuality?
J. SWILLEY: Possibly. Also there seems to be among Evangelicals this idea that there`s a gay movement that like gay people are recruiting people. And that`s not true. There`s about 10 -- I don`t know what -- 10 percent of the population that is, always has been.
BEHAR: I love it that they have a mega church with thousands of thousands of people and they worry about other people recruiting. They`re recruiting.
D. SWILLEY: Yes.
J. SWILLEY: Exactly. But you don`t turn anybody gay. You can`t turn someone not gay.
BEHAR: I am what I am from "La Cage aux Folles".
J. SWILLEY: Exactly. Even Paul wrote in Romans, he said, talked about the potter and the potter`s wheel. He said, can the thing form say to him, why did you make me this? Meaning that you are who you are.
BEHAR: I don`t get that. Some ceramic upset thing? What was that?
J. SWILLEY: He`s talking about, like God is like the potter making a pot out of you. Think outside the box.
D. SWILLEY: Be creative.
J. SWILLEY: So the pot can`t say -- why is this funny all of a sudden?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
J. SWILLEY: The pot can`t stay, why did you make me like this? You have to say, I`m God`s creation. However God made me, that`s how I am. And that`s how I`m supposed to be.
BEHAR: You would think that they would think that, you know. That God made all this children and all the stuff they preach.
(CROSSTALK)
J. SWILLEY: The big make or break with everybody is people who say it`s a choice. That`s an argument that you just keep having. Is, too -- is not -- is, too.
BEHAR: Ok. One more question before I go, I`m running out of time. Gene Robinson, the first openly gay Episcopal Bishop, he just announced he`ll retire early because he`s getting a backlash and death threats have taken their toll on him. Are you afraid of anything like that coming at you?
J. SWILLEY: Not until you said it just then.
BEHAR: Well, I mean people -- there`s a lot of crazy people out there and mean.
J. SWILLEY: In all seriousness, we beefed up security at church the last few weeks.
BEHAR: Really?
J. SWILLEY: For that reason.
BEHAR: You should. What about your own parishioners, your congregation? Maybe they`re going to get angry with you.
J. SWILLEY: Well, most of the people there now, they have been through so much with me.
D. SWILLEY: They`re amazing people.
J. SWILLEY: I`ve pushed them so much theologically or whatever. I think some of them didn`t see it coming. I`ve broken off some relationships. There are some people that have severed ties with me I never thought would have.
BEHAR: I have to say, I think it`s great what you did because there`s a lot of kids who see you and say you know what, it`s getting better. People are coming out as you should. Thank you very much.
D. SWILLEY: Thank you.
J. SWILLEY: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok.
We`ll be back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Charlie Sheen says just because he had one bad night, there`s no reason to panic.
And George Bush talks with Matt Lauer about water boarding, weapons of mass destruction, and a bizarre encounter with his mother. Now back to Joy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Yesterday was a busy day for Sarah Palin. First, she gave Ben Bernanke advice on the Federal Reserve and then she gave Bristol some pointers on "Dancing with the Stars." The woman is a regular dear Abby. I wonder what earrings she thinks I should wear tomorrow.
Here to talk with me about "Dancing with the Stars" and other stories are fashion designer, Isaac Mizrahi, Sarah Bernard, host of "The Thread" on Yahoo!, and actor, Anthony Anderson. Welcome to the show. Now, Isaac, how is it that Bristol Palin continues to survive on "Dancing with the Stars"?
ISAAC MIZRAHI, FASHION DESIGNER: I think, you know what, I think here`s how she survives. She said this thing about how she didn`t want to reveal herself and wear costumes like minimal tiny little sexy costumes. And every time you watch, have you noticed, costumes get smaller and smaller and smaller.
BEHAR: Right.
MIZRAHI: So, she`s piqued our interest in something.
BEHAR: You think so?
MIZRAHI: Yes.
SARAH BERNARD, HOST, "THE THREAD" ON YAHOO!: I love that you`re watching it for the fashion.
MIZRAHI: Oh my God. Is there any other reason to watch? No. It`s actually Bristol Palin I want to watch. Excuse me?
BERNARD: No. I can`t believe that she`s on, but I don`t think she can believe that she`s on.
BEHAR: Do you think her mother has something to do with it?
BERNARD: Yes, absolutely.
ANTHONY ANDERSON, ACTOR: Alaska has something to do with it.
BERNARD: But you know, her mom can`t even stay in the main room anymore. She watches from the rehearsal room, because I think she`s afraid of all the boos. Remember, when everyone was booing her?
BEHAR: She was booed at first night, but then, they didn`t boo her at the second time.
BERNARD: Maybe she knows that she needs to keep a low profile.
BEHAR: Anthony, would you like to do "Dancing with the Stars"?
ANDERSON: No.
BEHAR: OK
(LAUGHTER)
MIZRAHI: What about you? I heard that you had like a --
BEHAR: It`s not as easy as it looks because I did a dance on the Dr. Oz show the other day. And he forced me to dance against my will.
MIZRAHI: We haven`t seen it. I DVR`d it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two, three, cha, cha, cha. Two, three, cha, cha cha. Oh, joy. Cha, cha, cha. Don`t think. Just do it. Two, three, cha, cha, cha.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Can you believe this guy lifted me? I`m surprised he doesn`t have a hernia, number one.
MIZRAHI: But wait a second, Joy.
BEHAR: What? MIZRAHI: Can I just tell you something? One thing you`re not supposed to do while you`re dancing is talk. No. Did you see she was talking the entire time? That was not an opportunity. That is supposed to be like dancing. Did you see the mouth was moving more than any other part of the body?
BEHAR: Broke my neck.
BERNARD: I thought your footwork was really good, though. You were moving a lot.
ANDERSON: Who was his partner? Margaret Cho.
MIZRAHI: Look, talk, talk, talk.
ANDERSON: No, let it play. Let it play. Let`s see the --
BEHAR: I have like a smock they made me wear, and I look twice as bad as --
MIZRAHI: Higher heels, that`ll help.
BEHAR: I have high heels. I was barely crippled in the whole -- please. Let`s look at the Charlie Sheen story. He`s finally speaking out sort of. The TV show "Extra" caught up with Sheen over the weekend, and here`s what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on with the missing watch?
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: Still missing, but the way I look at it is if you have expensive taste, you got to be repared for expensive losses. So, it is what it is. I mean, a guy has one bad night and everybody goes insane and panics. And, you know, I`m not panicking. So, what people should be excited about is tonight`s episode of "Two and a Half Men."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Oh, it`s fascinating.
BERNARD: Unbelievable.
(LAUGHTER)
BERNARD: You know what, he is the best actor ever.
BEHAR: I know. That`s why he makes a lot of money.
BERNARD: We just saw that. I mean, the thing about him is it`s kind of like the Mel Gibson scenario. Remember, when we were saying this guy has obviously got so many problems, but why hasn`t it been revealed? It`s like he`s the golden cow. His show is carrying the network. He`s supporting how many kids and wives at this point? No one wants him to be out of a job. So, everyone is just propping him up and letting him get away with everything.
BEHAR: He says he had a bad night. He destroyed a hotel room, a woman is trapped in his bathroom screaming to get let out.
BERNARD: Right.
BEHAR: The cops come in, and he had a bad night.
MIZRAHI: And he lost a watch that`s 150 grand.
BEHAR: Oh, he doesn`t care about that.
MIZRAHI: It`s like losing a house or like Picasso drawing or something. Seriously. I lost my Picasso drawing, you know.
BERNARD: But he`s prepared and watch his show.
MIZRAHI: He`s sexy.
ANDERSON: being prepared for expensive losses?
BEHAR: That`s what he said.
MIZRAHI: Yes, that`s what he said.
ANDERSON: And expensive whores.
MIZRAHI: Oh-oh.
BEHAR: No, she`s not a hooker, that girl. Let`s get this straight.
ANDERSON: Oh, she wasn`t?
BEHAR: No, she`s an actress.
ANDERSON: Oh, my bad.
BERNARD: But he`s talked about his fondness for paid talent, isn`t that what he said?
ANDERSON: Actors are paid. We`re all paid talent here.
BEHAR: Well, maybe they were doing voiceovers in the hotel. Did you ever think of that?
(LAUGHTER)
BERNARD: Possible.
MIZRAHI: By the way, I`m sure the show ratings have spiked, right?
BEHAR: Yes.
MIZRAHI: Yes. And I`m sure there`s a book coming. Maybe he fabricated the whole thing.
BEHAR: But how does he get --
BERNARD: He`s writing a book --
BEHAR: He gets to get a --
MIZRAHI: What a scam.
BEHAR: That is talent. To be able to in the middle of all of this, he`s plugging the show.
MIZRAHI: "Two and a Half Men." Please watch it. You know, 8:00 central, 9:00 pacific.
BEHAR: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
MIZRAHI: CBS, check your local listings. Check your local listings, you whore.
(LAUGHTER)
BERNARD: Also, the interview in the car with the seat belt that`s very classy. That`s a nice way to address everyone.
MIZRAHI: At least he was wearing a seat belt.
ANDERSON: Can you (INAUDIBLE) story that two of his Mercedes have been stolen from his home and driven down the same ditch off of --
BEHAR: Is that true? I never heard that one.
ANDERSON: Yes, that was just on the news.
MIZRAHI: Where did you get that one?
ANDERSON: That was on the news. Two of Charlie Sheen`s Mercedes have been stolen from his home and driven down the same ditch.
MIZRAHI: You have to expect expensive thefts.
BERNARD: OK. Now, it`s a watch and two cars.
BEHAR: All right. Next story. Moving on. Oprah Winfrey scored a big interview with not only the parents of Michael Jackson but also his three children. Michael`s daughter told Oprah he was just a normal dad, you know, except for the oxygen chamber, the elephant bones and the monkey. He was kind of normal. OK. The kids told Oprah that they want to be in show business. Does that surprise you, Anthony?
ANDERSON: None of them wanted to go into dentistry?
BEHAR: No. Not one of them.
ANDERSON: No?
BEHAR: No.
ANDERSON: No, it doesn`t surprise me. I mean, their father is, hands down, the greatest entertainer that ever lived, you know, that I believe. So, no, it doesn`t surprise me at all. I want to know what --
BEHAR: Do you think he was the greatest entertainer that ever lived?
ANDERSON: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s pretty -- more than like, I don`t know, Barbra Streisand. In the gay (ph) community, it`s Barbara Streisand.
(CROSSTALK)
MIZRAHI: She can dance, too. So could Michael. Michael could dance.
BEHAR: Well, Sammy Davis Jr. could do that, too. Remember that?
MIZRAHI: And by the way, Michael Jackson is a father figure to someone. I mean, like, he would have been a really good father figure to me probably, seriously.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, they speak very highly of him. His children.
BERNARD: You know, what`s a little surprising thing I thought of this interview was really talking to his mom because looking from the outside, you assume that she must have been, you know, right in there with him, thinking that this was just a completely normal way to live, but she said to Oprah that she actually was begging him to stop with all the plastic surgery.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
BERNARD: She even said to his plastic surgeon, just tell him you`re going to do a procedure and don`t do it.
BEHAR: That he was buried without his nose. Did you ever hear that? (INAUDIBLE)
MIZRAHI: That`s crazy, Joy.
BEHAR: It`s possible. They could zzz knocking it down.
BERNARD: You were talking about the cheese cloth.
MIZRAHI: Oh, yes. That was the photograph of "Hello" magazine that one time was a real close-up and it almost looked like there was like cheese cloth and that the makeup was --
BEHAR: Yes. He had no nose left.
MIZRAHI: And cheese cloth and then makeup applied.
BERNARD: But is it interesting to know that his mother was surprised by that and upset?
MIZRAHI: 1998. Something like --
ANDERSON: Do you remember what you were on in 1998?
MIZRAHI: Well, no, I have to say, I do not remember what Michael Jackson looks like. And there is no way to know if those children are his genetically until they start getting plastic surgery, right? Because until then, they will not resemble his father.
BEHAR: No, no. We know what he looks like before. We saw him as a kid. They don`t look like him.
MIZRAHI: They don`t.
BEHAR: They`re beautiful kids.
MIZRAHI: They are.
BEHAR: He was cute as a kid. (INAUDIBLE)
ANDERSON: Those are not mixed breed children. That`s all I`m going to say.
(CROSSTALK)
MIZRAHI: They`re very white, Joy. They`re very white.
ANDERSON: They`re very homogenized.
BEHAR: OK. Conan O`Brien made his return to late night TV last night, and critics called his performance everything from very funny to (INAUDIBLE), which by the way were the exact words used to describe my wedding night. OK. So --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: All right. So, Sarah, did people watch? I think they did.
BERNARD: Absolutely.
BEHAR: I think he knocked it out of the park.
BERNARD: He did really well. He --
MIZRAHI: Yes.
BERNARD: Which was better than Jay Leno which I think was really the whole point, right? He just wanted to do better than Jay Leno.
MIZRAHI: It`s one night. One night.
BERNARD: Right. You know, and there`s no surprise that he did. There`s a lot of attention. I think all the other talk show hosts made a little, you know, illusion to him being on the air, but can he really keep this up is the question.
BEHAR: That`s the question.
BERNARD: In a month, in two months, is he still going to have the same kind of momentum because his whole night was I was fired, and now I`m back, but you can`t really do that more than once.
MIZRAHI: Yes, I know you`re right about. You can work that just so far.
BEHAR: Well, they said in one interview, one thing I read, Johnny Carson used his divorce as a motif.
MIZRAHI: Right. He just kept going back to that.
BEHAR: But I think that this weird (ph) thing. Divorce is an evergreen (ph).
MIZRAHI: But he is a compelling personality, don`t you think?
BEHAR: Conan?
MIZRAHI: Yeah.
BEHAR: Yes, he`s interesting.
MIZRAHI: He`s a little also like trouble. There`s something beneath the surface. Where Leno, it`s just really easy to just put on, Conan really keeps you there. To me, I like, want to watch him --
BERNARD: I think what we learned from this whole thing is not only do people like Conan, but how much people don`t like Jay Leno.
BEHAR: That`s before Bill Carter`s book is coming out which I`m interviewing him tomorrow night. And that is really pro-Jay more than pro- Conan as far as I can tell.
MIZRAHI: Uh-oh.
BEHAR: Yes.
BERNARD: Trouble.
BEHAR: There are no angels here.
MIZRAHI: No.
BEHAR: OK.
MIZRAHI: Conan is very edgy here, don`t you think? You always think he`s going to burst into tears.
BEHAR: He does have something --
MIZRAHI: A darkness.
BEHAR: In the book, he talks about Bill Carter, about how he was much more disturbed. The beard that time he was interviewed, that he really got to him. I know. We`ll find out more about that tomorrow. But thank you, guys, very much for coming on the show.
And a quick note, Anthony Anderson is a spokesman for face diabetes to raise awareness for support for African-Americans with type 2 diabetes. Go to face/diabetes.com for more information. Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Former President George W. Bush is promoting his new memoir "Decision Points" about his time as the most powerful man on the planet. He spoke about his legacy to NBC`s Matt Lauer last night. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope I`m judged a success. I`m going to (ph) be dead, Matt, when they finally figure it out, and I`m comfortable knowing that I gave it my all, that I love America, and that -- and I know it`s an honor to serve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me to talk about the former president, our Florida congressman Alan Grayson and Lizz Winstead, comedian and commentator. OK. Let`s talk about the interview. One of the things that Matt Lauer asked President Bush was if he ever considered apologizing to the American people for taking us to war in Iraq based on faulty intelligence. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I mean, apologizing would basically say the decision was a wrong decision, and I don`t believe it was the wrong decision.
MATT LAUER, HOST: You would still go to war in Iraq?
BUSH: I, first of all, didn`t have that luxury. You just don`t have the luxury when you`re president. I will say definitely the world is better off without Saddam Hussein in power as our 25 million people will now have a chance to live in freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. Lizz, did he make an argument? Did you feel better?
LIZZ WINSTEAD, COMEDIAN/COMMENTATOR: No. That in the world would be better off without a fried onion loaf, but we`re not going to blow up apple bees everywhere because they`re, you know, making Americans fatter. Like, there was no reason and justification to go to war. And he also said in the interview which I find fascinating that they would have no way of knowing that, you know, we would be attacked on 9/11 except for that memo that said, oh, I think that Osama Bin Laden wants to attack us --
BEHAR: Not Osama -- al Qaeda.
WINSTEAD: I mean, al Qaeda wanted to attack us. So, I just feel like no, he didn`t make a compelling argument at all. In fact, say I`m sorry, because Iraq never attacked us and that`s where we went to war.
BEHAR: Congressman, he never actually answered the question Matt Lauer asked which was, if he knew then what he knows now which is that there were no WMDs, would he still have gone to war? Why not answer the question? He never really answered that.
REP. ALAN GRAYSON, (D) FLORIDA: Because he has no empathy or shame or loyalty to the people who elected him president. That`s why. Let`s think about this. The war has cost us $4 trillion. That`s 8 percent of our national wealth. That`s $13,000 for every man, woman and child in this country. There are a quarter of million Americans who have suffered permanent brain abnormalities after serving in the war in Iraq.
Four thousand Americans have died. God only knows how many Iraqis have died. We`ve lost count. And over a million Iraqis have become homeless and refugees because of this war, and he couldn`t care less. He just couldn`t care less.
BEHAR: I don`t know if that -- do you feel that way that he couldn`t care less? I think that he just didn`t -- he was not capable of making the correct decision. Maybe it`s over his head to be president. That might be the issue.
WINSTEAD: I mean, I think what I find so maddening is when he just keeps making these excuses for removing somebody who was a horrible leader, when we`ve never in the history of this country preemptively blown up another country and go in there. And I just think it`s crazy to keep saying, we didn`t know. Everyone agreed with us. Everybody said the intelligence was correct. That`s not true.
BEHAR: That isn`t true. That isn`t true. They cherry picked the intelligence --
WINSTEAD: Yes.
BEHAR: People that I spoke to said that is a bad mistake to go in there and attack that country. How come they didn`t get it? Look, Hillary Clinton voted for that. One of the reasons I think she did not get the nomination is because of that vote. Do you agree with that, congressman, about Hillary?
GRAYSON: Yes, I think that ironically, in retrospect, I think that Barack Obama was thought of as the peace president, the peace presidential candidate. And Hillary was not. There`s a lot of reasons why Obama beat Clinton in the primary, but I think that was one of them. And I think the American people thought of both the 2006 and the 2008 elections as referenda on the war, the wars that are still entangling us.
BEHAR: Yes. Meanwhile, he escalated in Afghanistan, Obama.
WINSTEAD: Absolutely.
BEHAR: So, you know. Anyway, President Bush also spoke about his decision to water board one of the 9/11 masterminds, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Watch what he told NBC`s Matt Lauer about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: They say, he`s got information. I said, find out what he knows. So, I said to our team, are the techniques legal? And a legal team says, yes, they are, and I said, use them. I will tell you this. Using those techniques saved lives. My job was to protect America and I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. Now, you have to give him one thing, and that is that after 9/11, we did not get attacked during his administration again. It`s a fact, right? Congressman, that is the truth about that. Do you think that the end justifies the means about the water boarding? At all?
GRAYSON: Well, listen, I`m curious about the premise. President Bush was president at the time of the greatest attack on U.S. soil that was not in wartime in history.
BEHAR: Right. That`s true.
GRAYSON: We lost 3,000 people while he was president. He got a specific warning about it five weeks ahead of time and then went on vacation that month. So, I don`t buy the premise that he kept us safe when, in fact, he was the president when the bad, the worst thing happened. And that was true over and over again. It wasn`t just 9/11. He was the president when the worst natural disaster in American history happened.
BEHAR: We`ll get to that in a minute.
GRAYSON: Katrina.
BEHAR: We will get to that in a minute.
GRAYSON: He was the president when the worst foreign policy disaster happened, worst economic disaster happened. I don`t think we should be asking ourselves did he keep America safe because the answer clearly was no. He didn`t keep America safe --
BEHAR: Not in the 09/11. And Rudy Giuliani, I believe, made the gross error of saying there was never an attack on Bush`s watch which is exactly what you are saying, congressman. So, I agree with you there. But after 9/11, we were not attacked again. That is what Bush`s argument is. And he also said that water boarding yielded valuable information. Is there any proof of that, congressman? You answer that one. Is there any proof of that?
GRAYSON: Well, the answer is no. I mean, he keeps saying lives have been saved and he can`t point to a single one. It`s always this waving of hands when you try to get down to specifics, but it doesn`t matter. I mean, look, we got through World War II, a far greater challenge to us, an existential challenge not only to America but to Democracy all around the world without torturing people. How come we couldn`t get through investigations of the aftermath of 9/11 under the same principles?
BEHAR: OK.
GRAYSON: When we torture people, that means everybody else can torture Americans. It means that we lose our moral standing in the world, and at the same time, commit a felony which everyone seems to have overlooked. It is against the criminal codes to commit torture and none of the people who committed that tortured were ever prosecuted.
BEHAR: And Colin Powell said that the techniques like water boarding would put our own troops at risk. So, it was not a great thing to do.
OK. We`ll continue this in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Florida congressman, Alan Grayson, along with comedian and commentator, Lizz Winstead. Now, President Bush admitted he looked detached and uncaring in this photo which has taken as he flew back to Washington over the devastated New Orleans. Listen as he explains that moment to Matt Lauer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: That`s always my fault. I should have touched down in Baton Rouge, met with the governor, walked out, said, I hear you. I mean, we know, we understand and we`re going to, you know, help the state and help the local governments with as much resources as needed. And I got back on and flew up to Washington. I did not do that and paid a price for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He paid the price. I love that.
WINSTEAD: Yes, poor thing.
BEHAR: I love that. Was Baton Rouge under water? What has Baton Rouge got to do with it?
WINSTEAD: It`s the capital.
BEHAR: I know that. But New Orleans is the one we`re dealing with.
WINSTEAD: Right, but the governor would be in Baton Rouge. That would be my deduction. But what I found interesting this morning, I was watching aftermath on another morning show and Dan Bartlett was on and he was talking about how just the information that they were getting at the White House about Katrina was different than what was being reported on the ground, and it`s like, excuse me, the reporters got there before you and they were standing knee deep in water and human bodies.
BEHAR: We saw it.
WINSTEAD: We saw it.
BEHAR: We saw it.
WINSTEAD: Were you on a different story just like the WMD? Just give us the story we want seems to be the ongoing theme of his administration.
BEHAR: Congressman, when he says he paid a price for it, how does that make you feel?
GRAYSON: Creepy. You know, he embodies this right wing philosophy of simply not caring, of callousness, of selfishness. And to say that he paid a price for it is a disgrace to the one -- no, actually almost 2,000 people who died as a result of Katrina. It`s a disgrace to the memories of the million people who were displaced and left homeless.
And it`s a disgrace to the fact that we had to bear $100 billion of cost from federal spending and $90 billion of property damage, the largest natural disaster in American history. And he thinks he paid the price? No, we paid the price, particularly the dead.
BEHAR: OK. Let me quickly just ask you one more question. First of all, things are looking very tea party-ish right now in the country. How do you feel about -- I mean, I know that you didn`t win the last election, congressman. So, are you worried about the country now?
GRAYSON: No. I`m not that worried because I understand what`s at stake here is a fight over the way America is going to be, And I think that our version and our vision of America is a lot closer to human nature than the other side`s ever can be. What you`re going to see coming out now from the tea party and from the right wing now that they have power is simply meanness. It`s nastiness.
They`re going to show their true colors. They`re going to cut benefits to the unemployed. They`re going to cut benefits to seniors. They`re going to cut benefits to people in need and they`re going to make the miserable even more miserable. They`re going to afflict the afflicted. And that`s simply not what America wants.
BEHAR: I agree with that. I think it`s a very sad scenario that we`re all going to be watching very shortly. And, unfortunately, a lot of those people didn`t vote the correct way, in my opinion, for their own interests.
WINSTEAD: Right.
BEHAR: You know? All right.
GRAYSON: But, in the long run, it`s still true that Americans like people over the world have a good heart and the progressive vision appeals to those people with a good heart. That`s what it`s all about. That`s what it`s always been about.
BEHAR: Let`s see what happen.
GRAYSON: That`s what it`s always been about.
BEHAR: OK. I appreciate your input on all of this. And Lizz will be in Pittsburgh at the August Wilson Center November 20th. Get details at lizzwinstead.com. Goodnight, everybody.
END
