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Joy Behar Page
Elizabeth Smart`s Nightmare; The Late Night Wars; Olbermann`s Return
Aired November 10, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Elizabeth Smart took the stand for the third and final time today. And while her testimony has included graphic details of her nine-month ordeal, one glaring question remains. One that even Elizabeth herself has asked herself. Why was she unable to escape when the opportunity presented itself?
Here to discuss this are Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV; Erin Runnion, whose own daughter Samantha Runnion was kidnapped and murdered, she is also the co-founder along with Ed Smart of the Surviving Parents` Coalition; and Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Greetings, everybody.
Ok. Jean, it`s day three of Elizabeth`s testimony. And both the prosecution and the defense asked about her ability to escape and if she tried to get help. What did she say?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": You know, I think the recurring theme that we have heard through this testimony is that the threats that were given to her by Brian David Mitchell, if you cry out, if you try to leave, if you try to do anything, I will find you, I will kill you, and I will kill your family. And she took that to heart. She believed that that was going to happen.
And as far as the Salt Lake City library situation where they went there and a homicide detective who had taken the stand; he was a witness after Elizabeth Smart today. He testified that he immediately went to the library when there was that tip and he sat next to, who we now know as, Wanda Barzee and Elizabeth Smart.
He told them, I am a homicide detective. Mitchell came right up and he very calmly said, we are religious people. You cannot touch us. You cannot lift her veil. You know what he said on the stand, Joy. He said, "I didn`t believe that legally I could take this veil and lift it off of her face." That means he believed he didn`t have probable cause at that point of time that a crime had been committed.
Mitchell, he said, brain-washed him in a sense. That they were religious people and so he left.
BEHAR: Robi, let me ask you. The girl didn`t say, you know, here, it`s me, you know, pull the veil up herself. Why not? Do you think that she was so petrified of the guy?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I do. I do. I don`t necessarily --
BEHAR: But there was a policeman there.
LUDWIG: But the police didn`t necessarily protect her from getting harmed. Also, this was a very dangerous man who went into her home, knew where her family lived and just committed such extreme atrocities. Why wouldn`t she be scared to death? That`s part of what stopped her from saying, "Hey, listen, get me."
She didn`t know who this police officer was. She didn`t know he could really protect her and her family. She had no information at that point.
BEHAR: Right. I see what you`re saying.
Erin, regarding that incident, Elizabeth has said -- this was her quote, "I was mad at myself that I didn`t say anything. I felt terrible that the detective didn`t push harder and had just walked away." She sounds like she`s blaming herself. Is that typical of a victim of that age group?
ERIN RUNNION, CO-FOUNDER, SURVIVING PARENTS` COALITION: It absolutely is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Or maybe any age group.
RUNNION: Exactly. When somebody is kidnapped, it`s not just their body. It is their mind. They feel so totally dependent on their perpetrator. And it`s very, very scary. She was a child. She`s a beautiful grown woman now. But she was 14 years old.
BEHAR: Yes.
RUNNION: And we kind of underestimate just how dependent a child feels, even if it`s a very scary situation.
BEHAR: Right.
RUNNION: Elizabeth is incredibly strong though.
LUDWIG: And also she was saving her life.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: You know, so, you really align yourself with the most powerful person and that was her captivator. He was the one who could really harm her. So she was trying to play it safe and survive. And she did that and deserves credit for that.
RUNNION: Yes.
BEHAR: I definitely agree with that. I mean, certainly, we give her all the credit, this child. So you don`t think that --
RUNNION: I mean, he threatened her family. Not just her immediate family but her extended family, cousins and other relatives.
BEHAR: Yes. Maybe she didn`t feel anything would be done if she said something also, you know, to protect her family.
LUDWIG: Feeling powerless. That`s certainly a hallmark of being a victim of a crime.
BEHAR: So you don`t buy any of this Stockholm Syndrome where they identify with the abductor.
LUDWIG: I`m not hearing that she felt empathic to the person who abducted her. She wasn`t empathizing with him thinking he had some point.
BEHAR: There is nothing in the testimony, Jean, about that at all, that she felt empathic?
CASAREZ: No, there really wasn`t.
BEHAR: No.
CASAREZ: Do you know what we heard it today? We heard that -- she testified that when they were in Salt Lake City, they were at a Hard Rock Cafe. She had to go to the restroom so she was in the stall by herself and she scratched into the stall door that she was Elizabeth Smart and she needed help. No one must have found that.
BEHAR: Nobody found it. So, there she was in the Hard Rock Cafe --
LUDWIG: Yes.
BEHAR: Surrounded by all sorts of people and she did not feel she could say to a woman, let`s say, the way we sort of we teach our own children -- which I want to talk about that to Erin a little bit. You have an organization that teaches children to empower themselves a little bit. What do you say to them?
RUNNION: Well, we teach -- the Joyful Child Foundation teaches the radKIDS curriculum and we`re actually -- under the Surviving Parents` Coalition doing the "not one more child" safety education initiative which combines children`s safety and adult safety.
BEHAR: Ok.
RUNNION: But the idea is that we`re empowering our kids to recognize that nobody has the right to hurt them whether they know them or they don`t, whether it`s a 5-year-old or 105-year-old. Nobody has a right to hurt them and that they have a voice.
We actually train them. It`s more than talking because when you`re in a situation of real fear --
BEHAR: Yes.
RUNNION: Talking doesn`t work. Your cognitive brain shuts off. All you have is your instinctual brain. We train them physically to respond appropriately and to use their voice.
BEHAR: Ok. So if this child, if Elizabeth had been trained by your group, how might she have acted, let`s say at the Hard Rock or with the veil incident? What might she have done if she had been trained properly?
RUNNION: She would have yelled --
BEHAR: She would have yelled.
RUNNION: She would have yelled, gotten up and made a scene.
BEHAR: In that case --
RUNNION: Gotten as much attention as possible.
BEHAR: That`s interesting Robi. The screaming would have kicked in. She still would have been scared. The guy was very, very violent.
LUDWIG: But here`s my assessment of Elizabeth Smart. She`s a good kid. She`s a kid who listens to adults. She was a compliant child. So then you transfer that just even instinctually.
BEHAR: But isn`t that the way we train our kids?
LUDWIG: It is. You know, respect adults and --
BEHAR: Children should be polite. Children should be seen and not heard, be polite.
LUDWIG: That`s right.
BEHAR: I was never trained that way, thank goodness.
LUDWIG: I don`t know that I was either.
BEHAR: I don`t this it`s a great way to train children. I think you should train them to be assertive, not aggressive. Right?
RUNNION: Exactly. Empower them to recognize that nobody has a right to touch their private parts, the parts covered by a bathing suit. And that they can say something if somebody makes them uncomfortable. And we - - yes.
LUDWIG: But the reality -- who gets training for being abducted from your bed or from your front lawn? I mean this is, thank God, an unusual situation.
BEHAR: But a lot of kids are kidnapped every year. Isn`t that true Erin?
(CROSSTALK)
RUNNION: Statistically, 58,000 nonfamily abductions every year and about 115 of those are cases like my daughter`s. And when you think about how few of those make it on the national news, and this is really a pandemic issue.
BEHAR: It is.
RUNNION: The aggravating circumstances, child sexual abuse and one in four girls and one in seven boys are abused before they`re 18. So we have a lot of work to do to empower our kids to stop the violence.
BEHAR: I mean adults have to be trained to spot stuff and children have to be trained to start yelling and kicking.
LUDWIG: Right.
BEHAR: You know.
LUDWIG: Absolutely. And to protect themselves at the same time. In some cases if you fight against somebody, you could be putting your life in danger.
BEHAR: I know, I know.
LUDWIG: It`s hard to know what to do in those situations.
BEHAR: Erin, your daughter was 5 years old when she was abducted from her yard, right outside your house. I mean what is a 5-year-old child supposed to do?
LUDWIG: That`s why they`re targeted. Because they are powerless.
BEHAR: It is.
LUDWIG: They target somebody who can`t fight off against them. And it helps them feel powerful.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: And if their deranged -- RUNNION: It took a while to overcome the notion there was something that Samantha could have done. There`s no guarantees. I wish that she had had options. And I think she would have used them. She fought hard. She drew blood when she scratched for her life.
And I think if she had been actually trained to poke in the eyes and just hit him in the vulnerable locations -- you know, no child can beat up a big guy but they can distract them and get away. These perpetrators are cowards.
BEHAR: Yes.
RUNNION: They`re looking for an easy opportunity. They don`t expect a child to hurt themselves and defend themselves.
BEHAR: I would give them the chair frankly. That`s me lately. I just feel like all these people need to be taken off the face of the earth.
RUNNION: I`m like you. Yes
BEHAR: Jean, towards the end of her capture -- let`s talk about this a little bit -- Elizabeth turned the tables on this creep and she manipulated him back to Utah. Tell me how she did that.
CASAREZ: This is interesting. They`re in Salt Lake City and they`re going to leave because once again too many people are asking questions and Mitchell feels uneasy. So Elizabeth was the one that said, I want to go back to Salt Lake City. She said she said that because she felt she had a chance to be found and she convinced him by saying that the hills are filled with Mormon women outside of Salt Lake City. There are women`s camps. You`ll be able to find other wives.
And that is one of the reasons why they hitchhiked back from San Diego to here.
BEHAR: They were in the hitchhiking situation too. You know you mentioned the Mormonism. How religious was Elizabeth, Jean or is Elizabeth?
CASAREZ: She was very religious, very religious, extremely religious. In fact she said on the stand today -- it was amazing -- she turned to the jury and said, God is just. There is a just God. And a just God would not have told someone to abduct me out of my bed with my sister next to me and put me through and put my parents through what they went through for nine months. A just God would not do that.
She -- she said it as a preacher really to the jury. It was in response to a question. But it was out of the personality and the demeanor we have seen on the stand.
BEHAR: And -- and this guy, Mitchell, he had been called -- he said he had been called by God and instructed to take her as a wife.
CASAREZ: Yes, called by God. That`s right.
LUDWIG: That`s psychosis dialogue.
BEHAR: That is psycho -- well --
LUDWIG: Yes that is -- well, when you are actively psychotic, you either think you are God.
BEHAR: Who knows -- who knows if it was psychosis or manipulation? You don`t know that.
LUDWIG: Well, he might have been manipulating --
BEHAR: I think it was manipulation.
LUDWIG: But he also could have been psychotic too. It doesn`t mean he`s not responsible for his behavior and didn`t know right from wrong. But when you are a psychotic --
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: -- or schizophrenic -- you either think you are God or you`re communicating with God.
BEHAR: It`s always tricky when you say psychotic as opposed to sociopathic --
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: But you know what he -- he`s always made the difference.
BEHAR: Right yes.
LUDWIG: There is a difference, though.
BEHAR: Right yes, there`s a difference. I`m sorry, go ahead.
RUNNION: He was able to discern who he was talking to and how he would talk about religion, which indicates he was not a psychopath or it was no kind of psychosis.
BEHAR: Sociopath.
RUNNION: He would adjust how he talks about religion.
LUDWIG: But you can be -- you can be psychotic and crazy and manipulative. I mean, you know, that`s certainly within the realm of possibility. And you can do and be both.
BEHAR: You know I can`t tell you how happy we all are that Elizabeth Smart is safe. Thank you all very much for joining me on this.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, a woman sues her employer after allegedly being told she needed to hide her breasts because they were just too distracting.
And singer Natalie Cole drops by to talk about her gripping new memoir "Love Brought Me Back".
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: This past week brought to a head one of the most polarizing periods in American history with citizens taking partisan sides and turning on one another with rage and anger. Some wanted Jay, some wanted Dave. And yet others stood with Conan O`Brien. I personally think late night TV should be like Charlie Sheen`s bed, room for everybody.
A timely book, called the "War for Late Night: Why Leno went early and Television went Crazy" Reveals what really went down behind the scenes.
Joining me now is the book`s author and the "New York Times", chief TV reporter, Bill Carter. Welcome to the show Bill.
BILL CARTER, CHIEF TV REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: Thanks. And it`s great to be with you.
BEHAR: Ok, here`s what America knows, "The Tonight SHOW with Jay Leno" was the number one show on late night yet NBC decided to give the show to Conan.
CARTER: Right.
BEHAR: What happened there?
CARTER: In a fiver -- after a five-year waiting period.
BEHAR: Yes. After five years, that`s right.
CARTER: It -- yes, it was a question of -- they were afraid about losing Conan at the time. And I -- they also were afraid of recreating the Letterman/Leno conflict. They want to avoid that so if they could lock in the change over the transition five years in advance, they felt they could avoid the blow-up.
BEHAR: I see.
CARTER: But all they did was light a fuse, really.
BEHAR: But did they feel that Conan had a younger audience; is that why wanted him --
CARTER: Definitely. They thought -- they thought he`s the future, he`s -- he`s younger. He`s going to have a younger audience. Jay at that point was like 55.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: So you know they thought, well, in five years, maybe he won`t be number one anymore. He`ll start to fade.
BEHAR: Right.
CARTER: And they were wrong about that.
BEHAR: I -- I`ve never heard of a decision like that being made in television or anywhere else.
CARTER: Never. You take the number one guy, well, here -- here`s the number quarterback in football.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: But you know what, he`s not going to be any good next year.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: So let`s get rid of him.
BEHAR: Right.
CARTER: That doesn`t -- that doesn`t happen.
BEHAR: It`s like they are looking in a crystal ball. And who was the perpetrator of this ridiculous decision?
CARTER: Well, the decision was made by Jeff Zucker.
BEHAR: Who is no longer with NBC.
CARTER: No he is there for -- for the moment.
BEHAR: Oh he is.
CARTER: Because until the transition takes place probably at the end of the year, he`s still the CEO. They can`t really remove him because they don`t have the right. Comcast is taking over -- NBC.
BEHAR: Right.
CARTER: They don`t have the right yet.
BEHAR: You know, I know Jeff Zucker, I mean, he`s always been a very nice person.
CARTER: Yes, he`s a very nice guy.
BEHAR: How does he -- does he admit that -- does he take blame?
CARTER: He says that -- he doesn`t take blame for the decision to keep Conan because he thought that was a roll of the dice that kept both guys in play. He did do that, he kept both guys at NBC for five years both making money.
BEHAR: That`s true.
CARTER: And they`re -- and they made a lot of money because of that. He thinks his -- his decision to move Jay into primetime is one of the worst he ever made.
BEHAR: Yes because -- how did that come about? When they told Jay, listen, in five years Conan`s taking "The Tonight Show".
CARTER: Yes.
BEHAR: But they didn`t say to Jay, you`re going to get another show?
CARTER: No they just said and Jay was broken-hearted by the --
BEHAR: He was -- I know.
CARTER: He really was.
BEHAR: I know him. He was very upset.
CARTER: So what -- he thought he was being fired in five years. But as the -- as the time came close, they were like, well, is Jay really not going to be number one -- he`s probably going to be number one. And then what do we do, if he goes to ABC, then he might beat Conan. And then -- then we`ll look like idiots for letting him go.
So they start proposing --
BEHAR: But they would look like idiots anyway. That was on the --
CARTER: That`s probably the natural state.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: But -- but they -- but they wanted to -- so they put -- pitched to Jay a lot of ideas. Would he do an 8:00 show in primetime?
BEHAR: And he said no.
CARTER: No, would he do USA Cable, no. Would he do a Sunday night live, like "Saturday Night Live", a late night show? No, once a week, I can`t do once a week. So they came up with all these plans all of which he said no to. And finally, he didn`t -- Zucker did not want to give him 10:00. He thought that was the hardest one to pull off.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: But it was a matter of keep him or not keep him. Then they propose that -- because by then, I think they were losing a little bit of their confidence that Conan would succeed.
BEHAR: Right. Ok, I asked Jay when I did his show one night --
CARTER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- if -- if he felt bad about Conan being ousted from NBC. When I was back stage at the "Tonight Show" on March. Listen to his response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Conan got screwed. I got screwed.
BEHAR: Yes.
LENO: I mean, this is TV. The reason show business pays a lot of money is somebody gets screwed, you`ve got money left over. Conan was treated terribly. And I was treated terribly.
BEHAR: Right.
LENO: And guys make a decision, I think Conan will come back and he`ll be strong. And you know, we`ll all compete against one another. It should be me against Letterman, against Conan, against Kimmel.
BEHAR: Yes.
LENO: And then, you see who wins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now, after that, I mean, he seemed you know, like he was going to stay, it was going to be ok with it all. He had no choice.
And --
CARTER: Well, yes. But -- by this point, he`d gotten "The Tonight Show" back.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: Which really is all Jay really wanted.
BEHAR: Yes at this point that`s true.
CARTER: Yes, yes, yes.
BEHAR: But that -- this was later, but still everything was acrimonious still.
CARTER: Oh tremendously.
BEHAR: But I guess he could be in a good mood because he got "The Tonight Show".
CARTER: He got --
BEHAR: Yes.
CARTER: That`s what really what he wanted; he never wanted to leave it.
BEHAR: I know that. I know that.
CARTER: Yes.
BEHAR: But Conan wanted that slot also.
CARTER: Yes, it was his dream. Now --
BEHAR: But why didn`t the executives figure out that Conan, who has a particular kind of humor that works later, would not necessarily work at that hour when a lot of people who are not in the youngest demographic --
CARTER: Right.
BEHAR: -- are watching -- still watching television?
CARTER: Yes I think they thought --
BEHAR: They haven`t fallen asleep because they`re -- they`re so old.
CARTER: Yes that`s right. I think they thought that Conan was like Letterman.
Letterman was the 12:30 act after Johnny. Right? And then he did transition to 11:30. They thought that`s what Conan would do. When you`re at the 12:30 slot you`re after the college guys. And then you go to 11:30, you`re supposed to be everybody`s --
BEHAR: Right.
CARTER: That`s what they felt would happen.
BEHAR: Well, they`re all in their places at this point.
When we come back, I want to talk about Keith Olbermann.
CARTER: Ok.
BEHAR: I want to hear what you have to say. You`re a TV maven.
CARTER: All right.
BEHAR: We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: MSNBC anchor Keith Olbermann returned to the air last night after a short suspension for violating network policy by contributing to political campaigns.
I`m back with "The New York Times" chief TV reporter and author of "The War for Late Night", Bill Carter. What do you think of his return, too soon?
CARTER: Well, I don`t know. I mean, it depends on whether you think he really should have been suspended at all.
BEHAR: Do you think he should?
CARTER: I think he made a mistake. He should have known the rules. When he said he was never told about the rules, but suspending him for it, I don`t know. That seems a little harsh in a way because he didn`t do something illegal. He didn`t do something immoral or unethical. He violated a rule of the company which he says he didn`t know.
BEHAR: Well, his political leanings are no secret anyway.
CARTER: True. Everybody knows where he stands. That is the part that I think really is why NBC did this. I think NBC did this because Keith is occupying sort of a dual role for them. He does do commentary and he wears his opinions on his sleeves.
And then when there`s big news even like the election coverage, he serves as an anchor. And the anchor is not supposed to have that -- not supposed to have that opinion basis. And I think, really, if they didn`t make him the anchor, and he wasn`t out there out front as their guy, then this probably would have been blown over.
People would have said, Keith, you didn`t know about the rule but you know ok. Next time please ask us.
BEHAR: Yes. But why did they put him in that position, in the anchor position?
CARTER: I think it`s in his contract, to be honest. I think he`s --
BEHAR: Why did they give him the contract?
CARTER: He`s the most important guy on the network.
BEHAR: He is.
CARTER: He changed their network. Their network was doing nothing until Keith came on and became this voice of the left, to counter Fox News. And suddenly they had a base for a real brand. It became their brand.
BEHAR: You know. Olbermann was on "The View".
CARTER: Yes.
BEHAR: And we asked him why he didn`t vote. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH OLBERMANN, MSNBC HOST: I don`t vote. It`s the only thing I can do that suggests even that I don`t have a force --
SHERRI SHEPHERD, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": How can you be angry and have a platform if you don`t vote and speak on it?
(CROSSTALK)
ELISABETH HASSELBECK, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": Aren`t you just taking your rights for granted?
OLBERMANN: No. It`s a symbolic gesture. I`m saying --
SHEPHERD: That`s a bad role model. I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: We were rough on him. I mean I can understand Bristol Palin not voting, she was busy doing the rumba.
CARTER: Yes.
BEHAR: But why Keith Olbermann doesn`t vote --
CARTER: And he`s making it sort of a principle thing. No one knows whether you vote or not.
BEHAR: Exactly.
CARTER: No one knows who you voted for or not. And you don`t have to state who you voted for. So I don`t understand that. I`ve never understood that mentality. You can vote completely in secret. It`s not influencing anybody.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, why do they say this then on television? Bristol Palin admits she doesn`t vote.
CARTER: That was completely an oversight. She just doesn`t pay attention. She`s not paying attention. She was too busy.
BEHAR: Yes. She was watching her feet.
Carter: She`s in California. She`s got a career now.
BEHAR: Yes, right. But Olbermann said he shouldn`t do it --
(CROSSTALK)
CARTER: He`s arguing to be politically active on his show. He`s arguing people -- he should vote. I think he should vote. I think that`s a silly stance. He should vote and not donate instead of donate and not vote.
BEHAR: Right. I agree with you.
What about the blurring of the line between journalism and commentary? Fox News, for example, they have potential presidential candidates --
CARTER: On their payroll.
BEHAR: As commentators -- on the payroll.
CARTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Isn`t that a conflict of interest?
CARTER: Well, it`s worse in a way. Because they have them on the payroll and gives them a free soap box to sell their point of view until they announce.
That`s been done before. Pat Buchanan was on CNN for example, for years. And then when he ran for president, he stepped away. Never on this scale.
But the other part of it is they have made them exclusive to Fox. They can`t be interviewed by anyone else. That means they`re like in this protective shell and no one can criticize them.
BEHAR: Exactly. I keep begging Sarah Palin to come on this show.
CARTER: Good luck.
BEHAR: For some reason she doesn`t want to come over here.
CARTER: Good luck. Maybe Bristol.
BEHAR: Yes. Right. Maybe Bristol.
Ok. Thanks very much, Bill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Amy-Erin Blakely is filing a sexual harassment suit against her former employer, the nonprofit Devereux Foundation, claiming she was repeatedly harassed for having large breasts and eventually fired for complaining about it. With me now to discuss this are Amy-Erin Blakely herself and her lawyer, victims rights attorney Gloria Allred. OK Gloria - - Amy, let`s start with you. What exactly did your bosses and your colleagues say to you?
AMY-ERIN BLAKELY, FORMER EMPLOYEE: Well I was repeatedly told that I had large breasts and I was judged basically on my looks and my breasts as opposed to my performance.
BEHAR: Were you ever dressed in a provocative way? Did anyone say anything to you previous to that about the way you were dressed? Were you reprimanded about your attire, anything like that?
BLAKELY: I was always dressed professionally.
GLORIA ALLRED, LAWYER: As a matter of fact, Joy, she was wearing on the job often what she`s wearing on your program today. That`s the way she was dressed for the job.
BEHAR: Actually, it`s very nice. You look like a nun. It looks like a collar for a nun. And plus, you`re wearing a cross. It`s hardly provocative unless maybe, you know, you`re not a nun. Whatever. Amy, now you say --
ALLRED: Not only, Joy, is she not a nun, but she has a B.A., a masters in business administration, she was supervising 900 employees. She received numerous promotions and numerous raises while she was at Devereux. So she really is a very highly skilled employee and was earning in the six figures.
BEHAR: But the harassment started in 2003. You didn`t file a grievance, Amy, until 2009. Why did you wait so long?
BLAKELY: That`s correct. Early on, I was promoted approximately eight times during my 13-year tenure. The last position that I received was an executive level position. And that`s when there was inappropriate comments and undesirable types of behavior going on. I really wanted to advance with the company. I felt I had earned it. I felt that I had the skills to move forward and advance. And I was fearful of retaliation if I brought this forward.
BEHAR: I see. So Gloria, what do you make of this? Her boobs are distracting the men in the workplace? Is that really what`s happening there? It sounds crazy to me.
ALLRED: There were --
BEHAR: She`s dressed like a normal woman. Why is it so distracting.
ALLRED: I guess you`d have to ask the men why it was so distracting to them. They used words to describe her breasts, Joy, that I would prefer not to use on television. And in addition, she alleges that she learned that they have suggested that she should hide her breasts, that it was a distraction. That she was too sensual. And that one person in management said he had even discussed her breasts with his wife. Now, that`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: Really, don`t they have even -- can`t they just play mahjong together, these two? But you know, Gloria, what do you really make of this? What`s going on? Come on, what`s happening there? Are they a bunch of jerks, is that it?
ALLRED: Well, I guess I`m not going to name call, but I will say this, there is a name call for what they have done. And that is what we would call sexual harassment in the workplace, gender discrimination. And when she did file her two grievances protesting this, the fact that they retaliated against her by firing her the day after she filed her second grievance, that is against the law if we can prove it because an employee is protected under the law. They have a right to protest unlawful sex discrimination and sexual harassment and they cannot be fired, they cannot be retaliated against if they do. So that is one of our allegations in our lawsuit which we filed.
BEHAR: Let me ask you one more question, Gloria, because I think people that perceive you as a woman`s lawyer, right?
ALLRED: Well, I`m a women`s rights lawyer.
BEHAR: A woman`s rights lawyer, OK. Now, what if a guy came to that office and he was wearing really tight pants and it distracted the women. Would you then defend him?
ALLRED: You know, it really depends on what the facts are. But I will say we have represented men in sexual harassment cases where they have been victims of sexual harassment. And we have won substantial verdicts for the men whether they were sexually harassed by other men or sexually harassed by women supervisors.
BEHAR: All right, thanks very much, ladies. Good luck with the suit.
With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news are Greg Fitzsimmons, author of "Dear Mrs. Fitzsimmons: Tales of Redemption from an Irish Mailbox" and Michelangelo Signorile, Sirius XM radio host. Did I say your name right, Michael?
MICHELANGELO SIGNORILE, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: You got it.
BEHAR: Signorile, right?
SIGNORILE: That`s it.
BEHAR: Now she was told to cover up her large breasts. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. They`re distracting. What is she supposed to wear, a burqa to work? She was dressed like a nun.
GREG FITZSIMMONS, AUTHOR: Yes, I don`t think it was anywhere near as distracting as Gloria Allred`s eyelashes.
BEHAR: Well come on, Gloria is trying to defend this woman. Get serious here for one second.
FITZSIMMONS: She`s trying to fan the flames with her eyes.
BEHAR: Why can`t these men control their stupid selves in these offices for god`s sakes? A woman can`t come in there dressed the way she wants to dress without them leering at her?
SIGNORILE: It is. It`s like the Taliban where they have to protect the women from themselves, right?
BEHAR: Yes, exactly.
SIGNORILE: All she wants to do is do her job. She wants to look nice, presentable, feminine. What is she supposed to do, just cover up her whole body, have no curves at all?
BEHAR: You know, let me tell you something. There are some men, you could be having an eye-to-eye conversation, their eyes will go right to your boobs. I have experienced this because I have them too.
FITZSIMMONS: Well you do, Joy. But you don`t -- I like the cleavage for you, you`ve got top third, you see the trajectory. You see where it`s going. It`s nice. You don`t need more than that. A lot of women, they`re getting implants and fake tans.
BEHAR: I don`t need anymore, no, no, no.
FITZSIMMONS: They rub glitter. I mean, where am I supposed to look?
BEHAR: I don`t know. I mean, that`s your problem. OK moving on. GLAAD, the gay and lesbian organization is under fire for it`s recent criticism of the TV show "Glee" for using the word tranny. They were mad at "Glee?" That`s the gayest show on television if you don`t count this one. OK take a look at the scene in question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Schu, my parents read the script and they`re pulling me out of "Rocky Horror."
MATTHEW MORRISON, ACTOR: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really want to do it, but they`re just not cool with me dressing up as a tranny. I hate to let you down but I`m out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK now they used the word tranny in there. I also was reprimanded by "Glee" -- not "Glee" -- by GLAAD rather for using the word tranny because I didn`t know any better. Now that I know I won`t use it because they told me. But do you think "Glee`s" use of the word was offensive?
SIGNORILE: Absolutely not.
BEHAR: Explain who you are, first of all.
SIGNORILE: Who am I?
BEHAR: Well you`re a gay guy and that you`re also an activist in the gay community.
SIGNORILE: Of course. And I have used the word tranny. I have many friends who are trannies who use the word tranny. There is a big party in San Francisco that`s been going on for years, a dance party called Tranny Shack. It came out of the transgender community, people using it themselves.
Now somebody may use it derogatorily. But you have to take it in context. The "Jersey Shore" guys, one of them used it derogatorily and they apologized for it. But in this case, he`s actually depressed that he can`t be in the role, he said his parents said this, he`s not using it to attack transgender people.
BEHAR: But I mean if you unleash the word then the "Jersey Shore" is going to use it, so why not harness the word the way they want you to?
SIGNORILE: Well I think you criticize them when they use it in a negative way. You know, sometimes people say that`s so gay.
BEHAR: They don`t like that either.
SIGNORILE: That`s used negatively. That`s bad if you use it negatively. But if you say that`s so gay, that`s fabulous, that`s different.
BEHAR: So if it`s a compliment, it`s OK?
SIGNORILE: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Well is a tranny ever a compliment to somebody?
FITZSIMMONS: If you`re a car.
BEHAR: No if you`re a transvestite or transsexual or a transgender, is it a compliment?
SIGNORILE: If you`re using the word to call yourself that or somebody else, your friend that or whatever and saying, I`m a great, fabulous tranny, absolutely.
BEHAR: I see, OK. What do you think?
FITZSIMMONS: I just think look, the word police is a dangerous thing in a free society. Two weeks ago, the Tea Party said -- no, the NAACP said that the Tea Party was racist. And I wish somebody from the Tea Party who I don`t support, but I wish somebody had said, oh, we`re really sorry. We want to make it right. Let me make a check out to the NAACP. How do you spell colored again? Like, it`s in the name of your organization but we can`t say it.
BEHAR: That`s their organization.
FITZSIMMONS: But it`s my check.
BEHAR: I know that but it doesn`t work like that.
FITZSIMMONS: Why not though?
BEHAR: Well, I understand what he`s saying. Because if I`m Italian, you cannot say ethnic slurs to me as an Italian. It`s OK if you say it and if I say it. But if somebody who is not Italian says it, I take offense. And you`re Irish. You don`t like being called whatever the name is.
FITZSIMMONS: Well a mick, but a mick is just short for McCarthy or whatever.
BEHAR: It`s still derogatory.
FITZSIMMONS: But only -- I`m sorry, but if the context of it is if you call someone a guinea, it means they work for little money back then, and that`s derogatory. Mick is just an abbreviation for McCarthy.
BEHAR: By the way, GLAAD gave us a statement, it`s up there on the statement. You can read it, OK about educating the public. Go ahead.
SIGNORILE: "Glee" is a show that is very positive about being who you are, being gay, being lesbian, being transgender. They really are inclusive, they`re very supportive. So you have to take it from where it`s coming from. The show is a show that`s watched by a lot of young people who get educated by gay people. And that`s a good thing.
BEHAR: All right, if you insist. I happen to think they`re right. Go ahead. I do. They also have other things. They say, for example, if you use the word homosexual is offensive. They prefer gay or lesbian. To say sexual preference is offensive, sexual orientation.
SIGNORILE: They prefer gay or lesbian. Homosexual is clinical, right? But there`s a context for it. But, yeah.
BEHAR: OK thanks very much, guys. And pick up Greg`s book, "Dear Mrs. Fitzsimmons" in stores now. Be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She`s not only the daughter of legendary crooner Nat King Cole but a multi Grammy Award winning singer in her own right. Her new book "Love Brought Me Back: A Journey of Loss, of Loss and Gain" recounts her battles with addiction, a life-threatening illness, and her road to recovery. Welcome the supremely talented Ms. Natalie Cole.
NATALIE COLE, SINGER: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: I want to talk about your family for a minute because I`m old enough to remember your father in his heyday. He was very, very famous in his day.
COLE: Yeah.
BEHAR: And you were a little girl, you were a kid. Was it hard for you to be in his shadow? I often ask that of celebrities` children.
COLE: I think for a daughter who wants her daddy, that makes it hard. But I never thought about -- because I needed attention from other people. I just wanted attention from him. So yes, it was a little challenging.
BEHAR: Right but when you`re little you feel that way. But as you get older and you have your own thing -- how old were you when he passed away?
COLE: I was 15. It was a few days after my birthday. When I started singing in my career, I remember getting billed as Nat King Cole`s daughter, no name. That kind of thing. You can just imagine.
BEHAR: That`s kind of annoying.
COLE: That kind of pisses you off.
BEHAR: Definitely annoying. And your dad came up in a time when black performers could not even stay in the hotels that they were performing in.
COLE: That`s right, yeah. Typical example. My father performed at the Sands Hotel and I remember being there with him one time. And we stayed at a motel down the street. I didn`t know why at the time.
BEHAR: You didn`t know? They probably tried to shield you from that hardship.
COLE: Yeah, they did. They did a pretty good job, I must say. I don`t remember hearing of all that.
BEHAR: Like Sammy Davis Jr. was not allowed to stay in those hotels either. And Dean Martin refused to work there when they would do that. Good for him, you know.
COLE: Definitely.
BEHAR: And you lived in a very affluent part of Los Angeles.
COLE: Yeah. The only black family within miles.
BEHAR: Really?
COLE: In Hancock Park, beautiful area. Still to this at day, a gorgeous area in Los Angeles.
BEHAR: I know it. How did that work out?
COLE: Worked out fine for me.
BEHAR: Was it a good experience?
COLE: I loved it. I had a great childhood. I mean, I was the -- you know, one of the darlings of the neighborhood. I mean, I lived down the street from the Gettys, down the street the Shell family, Shell oil.
BEHAR: Wow. A lot of oil on that block.
COLE: Van de Kamps the other way. God, Governor Brown lived not far away. I mean, it was an amazing area.
BEHAR: But did you experience racism there?
COLE: No. My parents did.
BEHAR: They did?
COLE: But I didn`t feel that directly, no.
BEHAR: How did they experience it?
COLE: There was an incident that some people threw some things at our house and burned a cross, I think, on the lawn.
BEHAR: In Hancock Park?
COLE: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: People don`t realize how -- that`s not that long ago in this country.
COLE: That`s right.
BEHAR: OK now tell me about your Hepatitis C a little bit and how you got a kidney donor because of the Larry King show. I love that story.
COLE: Larry loves it too, believe me. Yeah, I was diagnosed with Hep C in 2008, which was after years of being involved in heroin addiction. It turns out the virus can stay in your body for a very long time. And I was getting ready to have some elective surgery. My doctor found some discrepancies in my lab work and sent me to it a nephrologist who then sent me to a kidney guy and he said, you do have Hep C, we`re going to start you on a treatment in a couple of months. I was working on my "Still Unforgettable" CD. Finished that, went on to get interferon injections which were horrible, horrible. And six months later, I went into kidney failure. OK that`s the real short story.
BEHAR: So how does Larry figure into it?
COLE: Well what happened was once I kind of got used to, more or less, being on dialysis, I went on Larry`s show to talk about an organization that I became involved in. And the woman that took care of me -- I was in the hospital one day at Cedars in Los Angeles to do an outpatient treatment. And there was a nurse who was my nurse for about five hours. And it was her niece eventually whose kidney I got. Because this woman passed away. But they were watching the Larry King show back in 2008 --
BEHAR: When you expressed that you needed a donor.
COLE: Correct. And the nurse had just been with me a couple of months before that. And she said I sure do wish we could get her a kidney. And Jessica said, I wish we could help her. And she didn`t know she was going to lose her life and I would be getting her kidney.
BEHAR: It`s such an incredible story.
COLE: Every time I tell it, it`s chills.
BEHAR: You`ve been fine ever since?
COLE: I`m telling you, it is absolutely like someone has plugged me back in. Really amazing.
BEHAR: So if I need a transplant, a hair transplant, I should go on Larry King?
COLE: Hey. Let me tell you, there`s a lot of people that watch his show. E-mails for days.
BEHAR: But the power of television, it`s just an incredible story when you think about it. And you tell a lot about it -- I can`t cover everything. So people will just have to buy this book.
COLE: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Is there a song out today that -- I know that you would want to do a duet with your father. I know that you have a CD, duets with your dad. Is there a song now that you would like to do with Nat King Cole?
COLE: With my dad, oh. I don`t know. There`s a crazy little song that my sister and my dad and I recorded back in the day. I must have been only about six. It was called "Ain`t She Sweet."
BEHAR: She`s a walking down the street. Well I ask you very confidentially, ain`t she sweet?
COLE: I can`t believe it.
BEHAR: Natalie, I`ll do the duet with you.
COLE: You are too much. That is funny.
BEHAR: Thank you, Natalie, so much for being here.
COLE: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: Her book is called "Love Brought Me Back: A Journey of Loss and Gain." And it`s out now. Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: He is one of the most talented and recognizable fashion designers in the world. He`s imparting his wisdom to others. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISAAC MIZRAHI, FASHION DESIGNER: I would advise you to put the clothes on. The more you can see the clothes on and in movement, the better off. You have Dominique off. And you have you. Did you just really call me a girl?
UNIDENTIIFED MALE: I got called a chick by Isaac Mizrahi. This is bananas.
MIZRAHI: Good luck and go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining me now is fashion designer and host of "The Fashion Show: Ultimate Collection" Isaac Mizrahi. Isaac --
MIZRAHI: Hi darling.
BEHAR: How is this show different from the other shows that are on about this sort of thing? Besides having you who is fabulous.
MIZRAHI: Exactly, and Iman, who is so fabulous.
BEHAR: Oh and Iman is there, she`s there in every show?
MIZRAHI: She`s there, every single show.
BEHAR: Does she bring David Bowie with her?
MIZRAHI: She doesn`t bring him, no, actually. But the way it`s different, I would say, is that for one thing, we kind of approach it in a very realistic way in that it`s houses that are competing. They do these two collections. It`s not just one project. It`s these collections. Like a green team and a blue team. They do these collections. And each week they do very elaborate and beautifully produced fashion shows. And there`s an intense -- besides the idea of competition, there`s collaboration and the creative process. A lot of drama.
BEHAR: Probably some fights too?
MIZRAHI: A lot of fighting.
BEHAR: But when the team does it, then how does a single talent emerge from that?
MIZRAHI: Well, each week there`s a winning house, right? And a house that doesn`t win. And from the house that doesn`t win, somebody goes home. And usually there`s a winning look, the best look in the house that won is this.
But the thing is, sometimes I would sit there and go, I still don`t want -- I love the show better and I want that person to leave. But we couldn`t do that because the rules were that the winning house has immunity, all of the people. Sometimes it`s skewed that way.
BEHAR: Are you strict?
MIZRAHI: Am I strict?
BEHAR: Are you bitchy, come on?
MIZRAHI: Me, bitchy, strict? Well I guess so. I don`t see myself as that. I see myself as this person who is very honest. This time I actually wanted to connect with them, you know, because they were so good for one thing.
For another thing, some of them were cute. No, just kidding. But I wanted to connect with them because it was like before I started taping, I was like, what am I really getting out of this except a lot of scheduling and being somewhere for a long time.
BEHAR: Right.
MIZRAHI: What I`m going to get is maybe to learn something. I don`t know if you know this. Joy, I`m sure you know this. When you teach somebody, you learn a lot, don`t you? If you taught someone how to cook a pie, you kind of learn oh right in the midst of teaching them --
BEHAR: I learned a lot of grammar when I taught grammar, English grammar.
MIZRAHI: I love that.
BEHAR: You learned the details, the usage of who and whom when you teach it.
MIZRAHI: I see, I love that. OK well you see what I mean.
BEHAR: I do. You know, before we go, I don`t have a lot of time in this segment, but Donatella was on the other day --
MIZRAHI: Donatella Versace?
BEHAR: Versace, last week -- yesterday. What`s today? No, it was the other day. And she said that Italian designers are better than French designers. Now you`re -- she did.
MIZRAHI: Wow. Well I think American designers are better than them all.
BEHAR: Do you really? Are Brooklyn designers better than Queens designers?
MIZRAHI: For sure. And then Brooklyn designers who are queens are the best.
BEHAR: On that note, catch Isaac on "The Fashion Show: Ultimate Collection" Tuesdays at 10 p.m. on Bravo. Goodnight, everybody.
END
