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Joy Behar Page
Charlie Sheen`s Bad Night; Bristol Keeps `Dancing`; The Return of Conan
Aired November 12, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: You know I love Conan O`Brien but I find it a little hard to feel sorry for him after his divorce from NBC. I mean the man got a $40 million payout. When I got divorced you know what I got? I got a toaster cozy and an eight-track collection of "Zamfir, Master of the Pan Flute". Ok?
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Charlie Sheen survives the fallout from his alleged Plaza Hotel rampage and Bristol Palin survives another week on "Dancing with the Stars". So, when will the spotlight fade for these two?
Speaking of Charlie Sheen, Joy has an exclusive interview with his attorney, Yale Galanter, and he`ll answer all the tough questions about his erratic client.
Plus a mega church pastor comes out after keeping his homosexuality secret for 21 years. He`ll tell Joy why the rise in guy bullying pushed him to come out.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Charlie Sheen goes on a bender, trashes his hotel room, ends up in a hospital, and is now saying there is no need to panic. I just had a bad night.
To me a bad night is when my TIVO cuts off the last two minutes of "The Good Wife", but who am I to judge? Here I am to talk -- what the hell -- here to talk about Charlie Sheen and more stories from the week are actor, Eric Balfour; comedian, Ophira Eisenberg; and Mark Blankenship -- I love that name -- editor of thecriticalcondition.com.
You guys have very interesting names.
OPHIRA EISENBERG, COMEDIAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Ophira Eisenberg -- ok, very old Israeli name.
EISENBERG: Very old Israeli name, yes. Translates into the worrier, which Charlie Sheen is not; that guy doesn`t have a care about anything. It must be nice to live like that.
ERIC BALFOUR, ACTOR: Well, I think he just has a different reality. My understanding was he sort of said it was no big deal the damage that was done to the room and, you know, yes. No big deal for me is when I sneakily take my room service plate and leave it out in the hallway. That`s no big deal for me.
BEHAR: Yes.
BALFOUR: Trashing a room --
BEHAR: Let`s look at what Charlie Sheen told the TV show "Extra" earlier in the week. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on with the missing watch?
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: It`s still missing but the way I look at it is if you have expensive taste you have to be prepared for expensive losses. So, it is what it is.
I mean, a guy has one bad night and everybody goes insane and panics, you know. I`m not panicking. So what people should be excited about is tonight`s episode of "Two and a Half Men".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALFOUR: Wow.
BEHAR: He turns it into a plug.
BALFOUR: That was amazing. I need to learn how to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
BALFOUR: Charlie Sheen trashed his room like the aliens are going to do in my movie that`s coming out tomorrow night. It`s called "Skyline".
BEHAR: That was good.
BALFOUR: How was that?
BEHAR: That was professional.
BALFOUR: Thank you.
MARK BLANKENSHIP, EDITOR, THECRITICALCONDITION.COM: You have expensive tastes. Do you shack up with an Internet porn star? Why not one who`s made it into DVD releases? I`m just saying.
BEHAR: That`s true.
EISENBERG: Well his ex-wives are showing that he does, he`s going to have to pay for his expensive tastes.
BALFOUR: Touche.
BEHAR: Now, Eric, let me ask you. You are around a lot of actors. Do they all -- I mean you worked with Kiefer Sutherland, no angel himself. Tell me something I don`t know about Kiefer Sutherland?
BALFOUR: What you don`t know about Kiefer Sutherland is that he is an amazing musician. He would get and he would come to my band shows --
BEHAR: Oh, excuse me.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wait a minute. Let me have some coffee to burp myself up here.
BALFOUR: These guys give me jobs. Ok?
EISENBERG: What they don`t know is that he enjoys shrimp cocktail.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about the porn star that he was with. Her name is -- what`s her name?
EISENBERG: Her alias? Capri --
BEHAR: Capri. Now --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Now, have you seen -- are you familiar with her body of work? "Lesbian Tendency", "Damn She is a Lesbian", "Barely 18, Part 41". I prefer her earlier work myself. This is her later --
BALFOUR: I`m personally of a younger generation so we go more for like the free online porn, like the youporns and redtubes. So we don`t really go for the big name. That`s how we roll.
BEHAR: She claims that Sheen destroyed her brand new $1,200 Prada purse which took her an hour to earn -- hello -- and Sheen can`t find his $150,000 watch. Don`t these people know if you`re going to trash a room, if you`re going to hang out with porn stars don`t leave the good stuff at home.
EISENBERG: It`s like using the good China. What are you saving it for, you know?
BLANKENSHIP: Let the concierge put it in a bag. They offer you that service.
BALFOUR: Are we saying that he lost the watch? As in --
BEHAR: Yes. Can`t find the watch.
BALFOUR: Not in --
BEHAR: No, he didn`t lose it.
BALFOUR: Ok.
BEHAR: Eric has a vivid imagination. By the way can I just say Charlie Sheen`s lawyer will tell his client`s side of the story a little later in the show so stick around for that? It`s hilarious.
Moving on, Bristol Palin can`t really dance and she admits she is not a star so how is it she is still on "Dancing with the Stars"? Can anyone explain this to me please?
EISENBERG: I think much like Sarah Palin we don`t want them to win but we love watching them be the train wreck they are. We love it.
BEHAR: But she can`t compete with the train wreck that was Kate Gosselin. I mean that was really -- she was bad.
EISENBERG: Oh, yes she can.
BEHAR: She can.
EISENBERG: I think she can. I think we`re going to take it to a new level.
BLANKENSHIP: Yes. But I also feel like if you vote, ok. I`ve been thinking about this literally all day. If you want to vote -- really, literally all day -- it`s been distracting me at work, on the car.
BEHAR: Ok.
BLANKENSHIP: Maybe you want to vote for Sarah Palin because she is not elite and voting for her --
BEHAR: You mean Bristol.
BLANKENSHIP: No, it`s a two-part thought. You want to vote for Sarah Palin because she is not elite. She`s like you. By extension if you vote for Bristol Palin who can`t dance like those elite stars, maybe you`re like indirectly supporting the political cause. You know? You vote for this woman who can`t dance because why should those trained Hollywood dancers get all the credit? I`ll give a vote to that poor downtrodden girl.
BEHAR: I see.
BALFOUR: It is true that these red state voters, the Tea Party voters are the ones voting for her? If their taste in dancing is any indication of their political agenda I think we`re in trouble.
BEHAR: We`re in a lot of trouble. It just so happens that the big news this week is that the executive producer of "Dancing with the Stars" says he believes that the Tea Party might be responsible for keeping Bristol on the show. That is interesting information.
EISENBERG: Yes.
BALFOUR: Right.
BLANKENSHIP: Well, at least they`re spending their time on quality issues.
EISENBERG: Yes. I say focus all your time on that. I like how Bristol is like oh, everyone loves me because they relate to me. I`m like, that`s kind of insulting isn`t it that we only relate to people that suck?
BALFOUR: I do not know anyone whose mother was running for vice president so I do not relate to her.
EISENBERG: Exactly.
BEHAR: Now, Sarah Palin showed up again this week. She keeps coming every week to see her daughter.
BLANKENSHIP: It`s only for her daughter -- that`s the only reason she`s there -- to be supportive.
BALFOUR: No. She doesn`t have a show coming on the air soon.
BEHAR: No. Nothing like that. Maybe Charlie Sheen can promote it for her.
BALFOUR: It`s ok. She is civil.
BEHAR: She tells her daughter, just have fun. Is that a safe thing to say to Bristol?
BLANKENSHIP: Look what happened the last time she did. Right.
BEHAR: Ok. One more thing on dancing. In Israel which you --
EISENBERG: Yes.
BEHAR: Which you know all about because your name is Israeli, they have two women dancing in "Dancing with the Stars" version in Israel. Do you think that would work here? Portia de Rossi who is now Portia DeGeneres -- I have to make that clear -- she married Ellen DeGeneres; she said she might do it on one of the radio shows.
EISENBERG: We, I mean, we were talking about it. We`re divided.
(CROSSTALK)
EISENBERG: I mean, I said it can only work if you had two hot twins because, you know, we got to get some ratings here. We were talking about this as a dancer.
BALFOUR: I grew up a dancer. I think socially it`s great. I think it`s fantastic. But I think you lose something in the translation because it`s not purely that it was made for a man and a woman from a gender standpoint but from a physical standpoint there is a reason why those dances were designed that way and I don`t know if a tango works with two men or two women.
BEHAR: You are so wrong. You are so wrong. Did you ever see a movie that Catherine Deneuve made called, I forget what it was -- it`s about Vietnam, I believe? She dances with her daughter. The two, mother and daughter and the daughter is a beautiful woman just like Catherine and they dance. It is the most beautiful thing to watch. I totally disagree with you.
BALFOUR: It is but they were choreographed specifically for that. I mean they were designed --
BEHAR: So they`ll choreograph it for this.
EISENBERG: Bring out the two gorilla suits.
BEHAR: I like it.
Ok. I`m going to jump ahead to Conan O`Brien because he made his triumphant return to late night this week. His debut numbers were better than -- you know, he went down a little bit in the numbers the second night. Should he be worried, do you think?
BALFOUR: No.
EISENBERG: No.
BLANKENSHIP: No.
EISENBERG: That`s natural. They`re like yes, then they`re like, oh, shiny. And they`re off.
BALFOUR: I would be curious to know what the demographics of the people that he lost were. I think he`s going to be just fine.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do you mean the demographics meaning like old people were watching and they said, nah?
BALFOUR: I think his show now probably skews toward a younger audience.
BEHAR: It always did.
EISENBERG: By old you mean 36.
BALFOUR: Exactly.
BLANKENSHIP: I actually looked it up today and his remaining audience is primarily people in that sort of 18 to 34 demographic. And I think the key thing is that his pull in that demographic is actually much higher than Jay Leno and David Letterman so the people who were going to watch him anyway are watching him.
BEHAR: Right.
BLANKENSHIP: He is doing what he`s supposed to be doing.
EISENBERG: Conan isn`t anymore about watching late night television. It`s a lifestyle. Team Coco, it`s people like drawing --
BEHAR: I`m trying to get Team Joy going but --
EISENBERG: Joy-Joy?
BALFOUR: I`ll go to Team Joy.
BLANKENSHIP: Team Joy-Joy
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much, guys. Always a pleasure to see you all and catch Eric Balfour in "Skyline" which he promoted already; in theaters now.
Charlie Sheen`s lawyer joins me next. Stay tuned for that. I love it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Cocaine on face, porn star in bathroom, hotel room in shambles; these are the allegations about one night Charlie Sheen recently spent in New York`s Plaza Hotel. And what a night it was.
Here to talk about it is a man who`s got more on his plate than the head of homeland security, Charlie Sheen`s criminal defense lawyer, Yale Galanter. Welcome to the show.
YALE GALANTER, CHARLIE SHEEN`S LAWYER: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: There`s been a lot of stories about the night Sheen reportedly trashed the hotel. What did he tell you happened?
GALANTER: Well, I can`t discuss anything that my client told me specifically, but -- but what we need to really do is separate fact from fiction and talk about the facts.
The Plaza Hotel has never made a statement that Charlie Sheen trashed the room. There have been all kinds of rumors, there`s all kinds of tabloid reports about $7,000, $12,000 --
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: -- no, that was the amount she was supposed to have gotten paid -- $20,000. But the truth of the matter is that the Plaza never filed charges. They`ve never made any official announcement that the room was trashed or in any way damaged.
BEHAR: Well, that could be because they don`t want the publicity or they don`t want to you know, go after Charlie Sheen. He probably sent them a check.
GALANTER: Or it could be because it didn`t happen and he hasn`t sent them a check because that`s what I`m in charge of.
BEHAR: So who do you think made all this up?
GALANTER: I think that when these things happen, when celebrities get in these types of trouble and these types of incidents happen, things get way blown out of proportion.
It`s like the rumors today about Obama going to India and $200 million a day. I mean it`s just -- you got to separate fact from fiction.
BEHAR: Oh, yes, you`re exactly right. They`re so similar.
But porn star Capri Anderson --
GALANTER: That`s a -- that`s a fact.
BEHAR: That she exists and that she`s a porn star.
GALANTER: We actually have the tapes.
BEHAR: Ok.
GALANTER: So tapes don`t lie.
BEHAR: Ok, we`re looking at her in the shoot for "Penthouse" -- right -- in the background here somewhere. There she is.
Ok, just so everybody knows what -- who she is, what she did. She claims that she locked herself in his bathroom, that she was fearing for her life and that Charlie repeatedly punched the door. Now, what do you make of those allegations?
GALANTER: Who -- who did she say that to? Those were just reports that were reported by tabloid Web sites. She never told that to the New York Police Department. When they arrived they asked her whether or not she was in any physical danger, verbal abuse, had ever been struck, she denied all that. That`s why nobody was arrested that evening.
BEHAR: Was she in the room?
GALANTER: Of course she was in the room.
BEHAR: Oh so she was in the room. That you know.
GALANTER: She was definitely in the room.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Hotel security saw her in the room, the police saw her in the room. The police did a full, complete total investigation; she denied any wrongdoing on Charlie`s --
BEHAR: Right.
GALANTER: -- part and then the rumor mill just started.
BEHAR: Did he pay her to be there or was she from Craigslist, a date?
GALANTER: Well, what`s Craigslist? I don`t get it.
BEHAR: Did he meet her and it was like a date?
GALANTER: No -- no, there are pictures. They were all at dinner and Denise was there for a brief time --
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: -- at one of the better restaurants here in New York City. And then she went back to Charlie`s hotel.
BEHAR: But did he pay her, is my question?
GALANTER: I don`t know whether he paid her or didn`t pay her. I mean, we all know what she does. I mean, she`s a professional -- I`ll refer to her as paid talent for the evening. How is that?
BEHAR: Oh, really? But she`s an actress. What was she doing, a scene?
GALANTER: Maybe. Joy, if she was, she was doing a scene with one of the best actors on the planet --
BEHAR: Ok.
GALANTER: -- certainly boost to her career.
BEHAR: Ok. Now reportedly she`s suing your client, Charlie Sheen. Here is a clip of TMZ. What is her claim?
GALANTER: Well, she hasn`t sued yet.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: There haven`t been any papers that have been filed.
BEHAR: No?
GALANTER: And I`m sure if TMZ`s reporting it, it must be correct.
BEHAR: Well --
GALANTER: You know?
BEHAR: That`s not -- you`re here -- you`re here to dispel all rumors.
GALANTER: I am. I mean listen, let`s just talk about fact from fiction.
So here are the facts.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: The police come. Their job is to investigate crime. They interview everybody. Ok? They search the room, search Charlie, search her. She makes no allegations that any crime were committed. She makes no allegations that he was anything other --
BEHAR: To the police.
GALANTER: To the police --
BEHAR: Right.
GALANTER: -- and hotel security. I mean, there are like 15 people there.
BEHAR: Right.
GALANTER: So she never says a word about that.
There are these rumors that Charlie had cocaine all over his face.
BEHAR: Right.
GALANTER: Now, can you imagine law enforcement officers introducing themselves to Charlie Sheen and seeing coke on his face --
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: -- and not arresting him?
BEHAR: Does the name O.J. Simpson ring a bell?
GALANTER: He`s one of my clients.
BEHAR: Oh really? Oh, you have quite a list. But I mean, to say that the police are not impressed with celebrity is -- is an understatement.
GALANTER: Yes, but Joy, listen, police officers when they see a crime occurring put people in handcuffs. There is no way that New York`s finest entered that hotel --
BEHAR: I would hope not.
GALANTER: Saw cocaine and let Charlie Sheen go. Additionally there`s no way they entered that room and saw $20,000 worth of damage and let him go. And additionally there`s no way they interviewed her. If she would have pointed a finger at him and said he abused me in any way, he wouldn`t have gone to the hospital. And he would have gone away in handcuffs.
So you`ve got to separate fact from fiction. What the tabloids say and what appears in "The Post" doesn`t make it real.
BEHAR: Ok, I`ll buy the thing about the police. But I`m not sure I buy the other thing about the porn star, that she wasn`t there being paid and that she was not in trouble in the room because he had a violent fit. I meant it just --
GALANTER: If she was in trouble in the room, why didn`t she report that to hotel security or the police?
BEHAR: Because she could be getting paid off by a very rich man? Charlie Sheen --
GALANTER: Oh in what, in 30 seconds?
BEHAR: Well later.
GALANTER: I mean the -- the story is that she ran into the hotel room, called hotel security, they were up there within a minute. So what do you think, in that minute and a half they made some kind of secret deal? The truth of the matter --
BEHAR: It`s possible.
GALANTER: -- the truth of the matter is that nothing occurred in that hotel room that was illegal, nothing. That`s what the police were there to investigate.
It wasn`t until three days --
BEHAR: Ok. Yes.
GALANTER: -- later and she lawyered up -- that was a Freudian slip -- that the lawyer said to her you know what, you had an encounter with Charlie Sheen ka-ching, ka-ching.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: And that`s really the problem when you represent someone like Charlie people like to explore --
BEHAR: Ok, so -- so far Charlie Sheen is an angel -- let`s talk about -- according to you.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Well, certainly nothing happened that night.
BEHAR: Ok then let`s -- let`s talk about --
GALANTER: I mean, every -- listen, the one great thing -- the one great thing about Charlie is everything he`s ever done bad he`s admitted that he`s had substance abuse problems. He`s admitted that he likes paid talent, so to say.
BEHAR: Ok.
GALANTER: -- but the police came --
BEHAR: Paid talent.
GALANTER: -- their job was to investigate crimes.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: They determined no crimes were committed.
BEHAR: I heard you. I heard that.
GALANTER: Now, three days later --
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: -- after she goes to some ambulance-chasing lawyer and says, you know, we can sue Charlie and we can get money if you say x, y and z. That`s horrible.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, you know a lot -- ok, but a lot of the tabloids have been reporting all this stuff. So if he`s telling the truth and nothing happened, why doesn`t he sue the tabloids or would he?
GALANTER: I -- I don`t think that somebody who`s got the celebrity status that Charlie has could ever sue a tabloid.
BEHAR: That`s not true. Carol Burnett --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Carol Burnett sued, I believe, the "Enquirer" because they said that she was drunk and she sued them and won. He could sue them if he`s --
GALANTER: Carol Burnett is not Charlie Sheen. Charlie Sheen is the most popular actor on the planet.
BEHAR: She was the most popular actress on television in her day.
GALANTER: He would have to prove actual forethought of malice and intent. And the way the tabloids do it, you can`t because they always cite confidential sources. And you know, it`s just an impossible scenario.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. I`m enjoying this. Sit there, we`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Charlie Sheen`s criminal defense lawyer Yale Galanter, who I will call if I ever get into any trouble because he obviously loves his clients.
Let`s talk about the situation with Brooke Mueller, they`re in the process of getting a divorce. He was married to Brooke. She alleges -- I believe it was alleged that he threatened her with a knife. Was there a knife in the room when he did that?
What do you say to that?
GALANTER: There is no knife. That charge was reduced to a simple assault, which is not a battery, has nothing to do with a weapon or a knife.
BEHAR: There was no knife?
GALANTER: Charlie went to Aspen, pled guilty to the reduced charge of simple assault. Stood up in front of a judge and said, "Judge, I did it." He was later sentenced to probation --
BEHAR: That he did what?
GALANTER: That he had an encounter with his wife.
BEHAR: And tried to slit her throat.
GALANTER: That`s not what he pled guilty to. He pled guilty to a reduced charge of simple assault which was a misdemeanor. He was originally charged with a felony.
BEHAR: So, you say there was no knife to the throat.
GALANTER: There was definitely no knife to the throat.
BEHAR: Because she said that there was and then he said there wasn`t?
GALANTER: Who did she say that to?
BEHAR: That`s what we read.
GALANTER: I know. That`s the whole problem. When we read things, we want to believe them. But you and I both know being as close as we are to the media and you being in the media.
BEHAR: Being as close as we are to each other.
GALANTER: Right. It doesn`t work that way. Because it`s written doesn`t make it true. The only two people who really know what happened between Brooke and Charlie on December 25th is Brooke and Charlie.
BEHAR: Ok. But you`re her attorney also.
GALANTER: I was.
BEHAR: You`re not anymore?
GALANTER: Well, I still represent her in certain things.
BEHAR: That`s a little bit of a conflict of interest there, isn`t it?
GALANTER: There`s no conflict.
BEHAR: They`re getting a divorce now. They both filed for divorce last week.
GALANTER: There`s no conflict. The day after this occurred Brooke made a public statement that she wanted all charges against Charlie dismissed. The Aspen D.A.`s office, the police department refused to do that; they wanted to put the case through the system. Charlie, obviously, wanted the charges dismissed. So there`s no conflict. They had the same interests.
BEHAR: Ok. You know, according to what you`re telling me in these interviews, this guy has done nothing. Now, these are the things --
GALANTER: I didn`t say he did nothing. He stood in an Aspen courtroom and pled guilty. I mean he`s admitted to having substance abuse problems in the past, and he`s gotten help for them.
BEHAR: He accidentally shot his fiancee Kelly Preston in the leg. Did that happen?
GALANTER: Wait a second -- he testified during the Heidi Fleiss trial that he had used paid talent before.
BEHAR: Paid talent, I love how you put that. It`s like "American Idol".
GALANTER: This is not -- listen, Charlie is one of the guys who`s actually never hidden anything that he`s done.
BEHAR: His ex-girlfriend claims he threatened to kill her. He OD`d after injecting cocaine. His ex-wife Denise Richards claims drug abuse and threats of violence and he allegedly held a knife to his wife, Mueller`s throat last December, which you now say is not true.
GALANTER: Denise --
BEHAR: What about -- Denise, the claims of drug abuse and threats of violence.
GALANTER: Listen, I`m honored because Denise sat in this chair.
BEHAR: She did.
GALANTER: I think last week.
BEHAR: She did. She`s a lovely person.
GALANTER: And you interviewed her --
BEHAR: I did.
GALANTER: She`s a lovely person.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: Did she not have wonderful things to say about Charlie?
BEHAR: Why do I have the feeling that somebody`s getting paid off?
GALANTER: I just want to know. Listen, Joy --
BEHAR: All of a sudden everything`s been white-washed. He`s on a cloud, he`s so innocent. Look at that face, will you look at it behind you, it`s so innocent.
GALANTER: Listen, you`re an excellent interviewer.
BEHAR: Thank you.
GALANTER: You had the source here. She had nothing but good things to say about her ex-husband, Charlie Sheen. They were here together for a family weekend.
BEHAR: I know. It`s a beautiful story.
GALANTER: It`s a beautiful story.
BEHAR: Thanks, Yale, very much.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: MSNBC anchor, Keith Olbermann was suspended indefinitely for violating network policy by contributing to political campaigns. It turns out the indefinite suspension will last about as long as Carl Paladino`s political career. He`s expected back on the air tomorrow. So, is MSNBC too lenient?
Here to talk with me about this and other stories are the star of Broadway musical "Rock of Ages, " Dee Snider, in touch weekly senior editor, Amy Palmer, and illusionist Penn Jillette. Welcome, guys. Penn, let me start with you. Olbermann`s political leanings are known to everyone. I mean, so, why bother suspending the guy?
PENN JILLETTE, ILLUSIONIST: Well, he never voted. Didn`t he say that on "The View"? Was it on the "The View" that he said he never voted? And the reason he never voted was because he was a news person, and he was a journalist, and now, he`s saying that he`s not -- he was a sports person for what, 20 years, and he never voted during any of that.
And so, I don`t know which he`s saying. I mean, he claims he`s not voting because he`s a journalist, and yet, he`s donating money because he`s not a journalist. I mean, which way is going to be?
DEE SNIDER, STAR OF "ROCK OF AGES" ON BROADWAY: are there any true journalists out there any more?
BEHAR: The Walter Cronkite`s --
SNIDER: Yes, the Walter Cronkite`s
AMY PALMER, SR. EDITOR IN TOUCH WEEKLY: I think that`s what it is. It`s the blending of the journalist versus the TV host. And how do we have restrictions, because with the internet and technology, it`s just going to get worse.
BEHAR: So blurred.
PALMER: It is. It`s blurred. We don`t know who is doing what, and this is a great example of that.
BEHAR: But you know, he was reportedly suspended because he would not apologize on the air. Now, reports are saying that he wouldn`t return to the air until his bosses apologized to him. That is a definition of chutzpah. I love it. You know?
PALMER: Yes, but he had 300,000 viewers who signed a petition saying bring him back to air within two days and MSNBC listened.
BEHAR: That`s a nice publicity gimmick, isn`t it? I mean, their ratings were in the toilet on Election Day compared to Fox. Believe me. I don`t think they`re so happy about that.
JILLETTE: What I want is I want the gig. You know, I do a show called "BS" that deals with subjects. I want to be a journalist so that I can tell politicians, I`d love to give you money, but you know I can`t. I love to host up in my house, but I can`t. I can (ph) give you a penny, I`m a journalist. I have opinions on things, I`m a journalist.
SNIDER: I think I was just going to say that.
(CROSSTALK)
SNIDER: I can`t give you money.
JILLETTE: But I walk down the street, homeless people, I`m sorry, I`m a journalist, I can`t give you money.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s right --
JILLETTE: I can`t give you money. I`m a journalist.
BEHAR: What do you, guys, think about the fact that Fox Network has a lot -- a few people who are presidential hopefuls who are actual commentators on the air. Isn`t that kind of like paid advertising for a campaign? What about that?
PALMER: Yes, but I think fox is taking a different direction with that, and they`re saying that we`re paying them for their opinion, but they`re not really representing Fox. And I think that`s where the differentiation is if you can say that.
BEHAR: So, if I start decided to run for Congress, I could come on this show --
JILLETTE: I think you should.
BEHAR: I could come on this show every night and just talk about whether I believe and what I`m going to do for the country and that they would pay me for that.
PALMER: But that`s a great platform. And I think that`s what`s happening is the blurring of lines.
BEHAR: I don`t think they`re talking about --
JILLETTE: Isn`t the solution to bad speech more speech? Isn`t more people being allowed to say more things in that situation --
BEHAR: Fine, fine. So, fix campaign finance and let them do what they have to do.
JILLETTE: Why not just take it away and let anybody say anything they want?
BEHAR: Well, then -- OK. Then, you`re talking about a different playing field. That if you`re (ph) MSNBC, if I`m running, I can be doing over here, too.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Either everybody does it or nobody does it. It`s not --
JILLETTE: You can play by company, too. I mean, MSNBC can say this is the way we want to portray our journalist, and Fox News say this way we want to do it.
SNIDER: They`d be more than what`s (ph) right if they did that.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: Those rules were known. These rules aren`t secret.
PALMER: The people can also get on the internet and they can say whatever they want there, and they can put it on Twitter and Facebook. So, who`s controlling that, and I think --
JILLETTE: That`s what it should be.
BEHAR: Deregulation.
JILLETTE: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. After losing "The Tonight Show" a year ago, Conan O`Brien is back on the air this evening with his new show and not a moment too soon. You can only live on a $40 million severance check for so long. OK. Amy, who is going to be Conan`s first guest?
PALMER: OK. Well, it`s not Seth Rogen. It`s not Lea Michelle.
BEHAR: Jack Nicholson?
PALMER: It is not Jack Nicholson. It is Arlene Wagner, the creator of nutcracker museum from Washington State.
(CROSSTALK)
SNIDER: Go, co, go. It`s so boss.
PALMER: You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me the fact that he followed one person on Twitter and that woman now has 30,000 followers. And she`s just a random woman from the United States who is doing her thing and blogging about the fact that she just had lunch. So, I think that that really says that Conan is one of us, and I think that`s what his show`s going to be about.
BEHAR: He`s going head-to-head against Jon Stewart now, you know. So, do you have any advice for him on how to beat Stewart?
JILLETTE: I don`t understand the whole --
SNIDER: You don`t have Obama on.
(LAUGHTER)
JILLETTE: I don`t understand the whole competition thing. I don`t understand how -- I think it`s important to the networks. It`s important to the performers, but as far as people watching, I just want them all to do good shows. There`s really no competition left. You can time shift anything. And the idea that it`s some sort of sports team and go, team Coco, and Leno`s doing this, I don`t follow any of that.
I just want to hear good jokes and smart people. And Conan`s smart and Jon Stewart`s smart, and I don`t need them to have mud wrestling matches.
BEHAR: Well, you know, this Wednesday, we`re having, on my show, Bill Carter, who wrote this book about the whole O`Brien and Leno debacle that went on.
JILLETTE: Who cares?
BEHAR: We care over here, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
SNIDER: We`re trying to have a show here.
JILLETTE: I`m sorry. I`m just saying who cares that the fry cook is arguing at McDonald`s.
BEHAR: We want to hear the background of what really went on. I`m interested.
PALMER: Yes, people are interested.
JILLETTE: Not me.
BEHAR: Whose side were you on during that time?
SNIDER: I was on Conan`s.
BEHAR: People did take sides.
JILLETTE: OK, I didn`t.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: But they`re working on it and that`s what matters.
SNIDER: But they were working off of one share. There are hundred one shares out there. So, what you`re saying is everybody could have a one share and be happy.
JILLETTE: People talk about shares. If you`re not an executive doing this stuff, just watch stuff that`s beautiful and enjoy it.
PALMER: Because everybody wants to be on television. Everyone wants to be --
JILLETTE: So be on television and be famous, but don`t keep score.
PALMER: But this is what the American public likes to see. They want to be team Coco, they want to be team Jay, and now, Jon Stewart is in the mix because it`s that same audience. It`s the young, energizing audience who goes on the social networks and talk about that.
BEHAR: And buy everything.
PALMER: Exactly.
BEHAR: Even though they`re unemployed. But you know --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It`s funny because I was basically wondering why Jay Leno was taking all the hits. He was. And now, Bill Carter`s book, if you read it, basically says that Conan was no angel in that event, and we`ll hear about that --
JILLETTE: "Anderson Cooper 360" code word. Isn`t that what he said?
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right. OK. Let`s talk about Pam Anderson. She`s taken her anti-fur crusade to Israel where she`s encouraging lawmakers to ban the fur hats that Hasidic Jews wear. Good luck with that, Pam. It`s easier to pull Randy Quaid out of someone else`s house.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Amy, what is going on here?
PALMER: OK. Well, Pamela Anderson -- I don`t know if you know as you saw her, but she was on "Dancing with the Stars" last season, and she was really --
BEHAR: In the Hollywood.
PALMER: In Hollywood. And she was really sexy. I don`t know if you, guys, saw.
BEHAR: She was very good.
PALMER: Isn`t she? She was great.
BEHAR: Yes.
PALMER: Now, she`s in Israel for the Israeli "Dancing with the Stars" for guest appearance.
BEHAR: Right.
PALMER: So, she just thought that it would be a good time to meet with Israeli lawmakers to discuss this hat Hasidic Jews wear.
JILLETTE: You said everything is smart.
(CROSSTALK)
PALMER: Right. Exactly.
BEHAR: That`s where she went.
JILLETTE: I thought she went to the hat.
BEHAR: She went to the hat.
SNIDER: Well, at least, now, she knows how to say (INAUDIBLE) in Hebrew.
PALMER: But, listen, we`re talking about it. And that`s what she does.
BEHAR: Do students (INAUDIBLE) in Hebrew, will she get like a gimlet (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Do you think Pam should maybe, you know, think about as he says, think about her battles and pick which one is really relevant before she goes after the Hassid? They only have a trim. OK. It`s no big deal.
JILLETTE: I`m so happy -- I`m very willing to argue with her about the PETA (ph) stuff when it comes to drug research and diabetics and the insulin that are made from animals and animal testing.
BEHAR: Right.
JILLETTE: That`s a battle I`ll take. But I`m not willing to take the other side of the hat back. I won`t get (ph) either side of that. I mean, fur animal rights stuff is crazy and wrong.
BEHAR: What`s wrong with it?
JILLETTE: I think because my dad died of diabetes --
BEHAR: Yes. And that`s Pamela Anderson`s fault?
JILLETTE: PETA comes out against bovine insulin stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Do they have to kill the cow?
JILLETTE: To save my dad, I would kill a cow.
BEHAR: Of course.
JILLETTE: Maybe you think that`s out of line, but I wouldn`t fight for a hat.
BEHAR: But I don`t believe that they should test animals for make-up.
SNIDER: Actually, you know what, a lot of people agree with PETA when they take this, they go too far at a time, and then everybody pulls back from them. They`re too extremist.
PALMER: But if you see videos of these animals being tested and being abused, it`s awful. And I think that she`s using her celebrity for a cause that she believes in. And it`s something that she does have a lot of influence over. And we talk about it. She puts in it the press. So many of her advertisements and videos have been actually banned. Canada banned a video that she was in because it was too racy. So, we`re talking about it and that`s really the point. It`s the dialogue.
JILLETTE: Yes, and the dialogue is important because animal testing does save lives. And I would kill every chimpanzee on the planet with my bare hands to save one junkie with AIDS.
BEHAR: All right. That`s a little extreme.
JILLETTE: I don`t think you put animals --
BEHAR: I`m calling Dian Fossey right now.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Whatever.
JILLETTE: They`re primates.
JILLETTE: I`m just saying. OK. They`re primates.
BEHAR: We have 98 percent of our DNA primates.
JILLETTE: And we are going to get it back. Those rat bastards stealing our DNA. We`ll get it back. The chimp thieves.
BEHAR: What were you going to say before we go?
SNIDER: I was going to say Pam believes in a cause. She has a fake fur merkin that she -- (LAUGHTER)
SNIDER: She uses (ph) in cold weather.
JILLETTE: How much money do you get for using the word merkin on TV? Playing all their best (ph) with the guy of "rock of Ages." I`ll say merkin on Joy Behar.
SNIDER: You can sell those at the front door.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys, very much. And catch Dee Snider in "Rock of Ages" on Broadway now through December 24th. And you can see the lovely Penn Jillette in Penn & Teller at the Rio in Las Vegas now celebrating their tenth anniversary. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Bishop Jim Swilley is the founder and pastor of Georgia`s Church In The Now, one of the nation`s most prominent mega churches. After the recent spate of gay teen suicides, the twice married father of four revealed to his congregation that he`s gay. A secret he has been struggling with since childhood. He hopes that his coming out will save a young life. I`m happy to welcome to my show Bishop Jim Swilley and his ex- wife, associate pastor, Debye Swilley.
BISHOP JIM SWILLEY, PASTOR, CHURCH IN THE NOW: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: It`s a very interesting story and very timely, I think. So, you say that you knew when you were 4 years old that you were gay. And how did you know, first of all, like four? Did you play with dolls or something?
JIM SWILLEY: You know, everybody I`ve talked to, and I`ve had such an outpouring (INAUDIBLE)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I`m curious about when people say I knew I was gay at 4. You don`t have a sexual feeling.
JIM SWILLEY: No, but I remember a way that I looked at men.
BEHAR: At 4?
JIM SWILLEY: Yes. And not sexually but just the attraction was just there. I didn`t know what to call it. And in the world that I grew up in that was, when I did find out what that was and start hearing about it, it was made very clear to me that there`s no possible way that can ever exist. When I told my churches that I was given two things in my life that I didn`t ask for either one is the call of God on my life and the other is my orientation.
And I didn`t ever think those two things could be compatible. And so, I just tried to change it. I didn`t try to hide it.
BEHAR: Yes.
JIM SWILLEY: I just tried to change it.
BEHAR: So, when did you come out? How long ago?
JIM SWILLEY: Wednesday night, it was a week ago, to my church.
DEBYE SWILLEY, ASSOCIATE PASTOR, CHURCH IN THE NOW: It was October 13th on a Wednesday night.
BEHAR: So, you kept this under wraps. You`ve told your congregation.
JIM SWILLEY: What happened was Debye and I had been married 21 years and I told her before we got married.
BEHAR: I know. I heard that.
JIM SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. Why did you marry him then if you knew he was gay?
DEBYE SWILLEY: Because I fell in love with him. We fell in love with each other, you know? And it didn`t matter to me.
BEHAR: Was there sexual attraction?
DEBYE SWILLEY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You too?
JIM SWILLEY: Initially.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: Really?
JIM SWILLEY: But at a certain point, you know, you are who you are. And at a certain point, it just -- it went so against my nature.
DEBYE SWILLEY: We had two boys.
JIM SWILLEY: So, we obviously, you know, had something.
BEHAR: And you had them the usual way, not --
DEBYE SWILLEY: The usual way.
JIM SWILLEY: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: Not in vitro or any other things they do these days.
JIM SWILLEY: It`s just like if a straight person experiments same sex. Same thing if a gay person has sex.
BEHAR: Is it really?
JIM SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: OK.
JIM SWILLEY: But it doesn`t change your wiring.
BEHAR: No. That`s right. You say that most of the marriage, you were like roommates. So, in the initial, it probably seemed to be OK to have a marriage in the usual sense, but then, it became asexual to some extent?
JIM SWILLEY: Well, we had small kids and we`re building a ministry. In the early days, we would kind of talk about it, and I kept thinking she`s going to leave, and I understand. You know, we`ll go our separate ways. And you know, life just keeps going. You know, before you know it, another year has gone by, another year has gone by, and I thought, well, all right, we`re -- you know, this is our situation. It`s not typical, but it`s ours. And we do love each other.
BEHAR: Yes.
JIM SWILLEY: We want to work together.
BEHAR: You told her but you didn`t tell the congregation.
JIM SWILLEY: No.
BEHAR: So, how did they react when you just told them?
JIM SWILLEY: It`s still news for them. What happened was nearly two years ago, Debye came to me and she said, you know, the motto of our church is real people experiencing the real God in a real world. It`s a very nontraditional church. I`ve never said anything derogatory about gay people ever, so I don`t have to eat any words.
BEHAR: Good.
JIM SWILLEY: But she said, you know, you let everybody else be real. We have openly gay people in our church, but she said we`re not real. And she said this is because of your message. You said --
BEHAR: So, you basically, you pushed him a little.
DEBYE SWILLEY: That`s true.
JIM SWILLEY: And I told her, I said, you know you`re outing me, because if we`re going to still work together and be amicable, then people are going to say why don`t we just (ph) stay married? And she said I`m never going to hurt you. I`ve always got your back. And so, we basically -- she`s still at church. She`s the CFO of the whole corporation.
Brilliant woman. And, so, a lot of people because it`s a mega church, and it`s not a community church, a lot of people still saw us at church, and it didn`t even register that we were divorced. And so --
BEHAR: So, basically, you decide, this is not real?
DEBYE SWILLEY: No, no, no. Actually, I was thinking about this today because somebody actually used the words our marriage was a sham. And it was not a sham.
BEHAR: Who said that?
DEBYE SWILLEY: Just, you know, people coming back and with really horrible things to say.
BEHAR: So, they were just suspicious of you?
DEBYE SWILLEY: Just after all was said and done and he`s come out, they`re like their marriage is a sham.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. Afterwards. Not before.
DEBYE SWILLEY: No, no, no. In fact, literally, they would think we had the most perfect marriage ever.
JIM SWILLEY: They would come and say, I want a marriage just like yours and I would think, I don`t know if you do.
DEBYE SWILLEY: But the thing is we had worked that out, but the point is that, no. I wanted him, what I saw, Joy, more than anything was he was regressing not progressing.
BEHAR: In what way?
DEBYE SWILLEY: Because of the message, because of our message and the inclusion of our message it`s just, he -- he began to withdraw, and he just, I think, he was tormenting himself.
BEHAR: Right.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Because of the message. It was like he was allowing everyone else the freedom.
BEHAR: It`s hard to be in the closet. I think it must be a very, very difficult thing to do.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Especially when you`re preaching a message for everyone to be free.
BEHAR: Particularly. Particularly.
JIM SWILLEY: If you`re hiding behind a religious facade, it`s easy, but in a ministry like ours where I`m very transparent --
DEBYE SWILLEY: Encouraging everyone.
JIM SWILLEY: So, you don`t realize (INAUDIBLE) yourself about what you`re preaching.
DEBYE SWILLEY: So, he`s living a dual life, you know?
BEHAR: I understand.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: Let me ask you about Ted Haggard. He`s a friend of the show. He`s on the show. You might have seen the interviews I`ve done with him.
JIM SWILLEY: I have.
BEHAR: He seems like a lovely guy. He left his mega church also after a gay sex scandal. And he comes on the show, and he says that therapy has freed him of his gay urges. Do you buy that?
JIM SWILLEY: I don`t know Ted Haggard.
BEHAR: Is this possible?
JIM SWILLEY: I don`t see how that`s possible.
BEHAR: You don`t.
JIM SWILLEY: Years ago, I was involved with not a typical conversion therapy, but we -- see, I come from like a Pentecostal and charismatic background. So, we believed in deliverance and casting out demons and that sort of thing. And back in the day, we had people come into us when I worked with my father. Our church was right in the middle of a gay community. So, people would come, and they would want to be delivered.
And so, we would take them through that. You know, we would pray for them and get them married off, whatever. And I wrote about this in one of my books a few years ago. I said, every one of those people now --they`re gay. They`re openly gay. It didn`t change anything. I`m not saying that he`s lying. I`m just saying I -- if someone came to me and said do you think that`s possible --
BEHAR: So, it`s not a preference.
JIM SWILLEY: Not at all.
BEHAR: That`s what people didn`t seem to get through their heads.
JIM SWILLEY: Not at all.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll continue this discussion in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Bishop Jim Swilley who recently came out as a gay man, and his ex-wife, Debye Swilley. But you were married a long time. So, it`s almost like -- I don`t feel like saying ex-wife anymore.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Thank you. That`s good.
BEHAR: Because, you know, you stuck together.
JIM SWILLEY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You knew the truth.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: It was not a sham the marriage.
JIM SWILLEY: In my head, she`ll always be my wife.
BEHAR: Right. OK. Now, your church preaches inclusion. I`ll ask this of either one of you, and tolerance. But a lot of churches don`t. A lot of churches say some hateful things about gays and -- I mean, what part of God loves all his children do they not get some of these churches?
JIM SWILLEY: Well, if you come from a very legalistic, interpretation of the scripture, you try to line up --
BEHAR: The bible?
JIM SWILLEY: Yes, with the reality of life, but the fact is people pick and choose which things they want to --
BEHAR: Exactly. Isn`t it a sin to eat shellfish in the bible? So, why weren`t they anti-lobster?
JIM SWILLEY: Exactly.
BEHAR: I ask you that question.
JIM SWILLEY: Proverbs says put a knife to your throat if you`re given to gluttony. I`ve never seen a fat person cut their throat. Even Paul. I love Paul. I preach mostly out of his (INAUDIBLE), but he endorsed slavery. He said, you know, if you`re a slave and you have a master, don`t even try to be free. So, with those situations, even very conservative Christians are able to look at it and say OK, well, that`s not applicable now but this is. But for some reason, homophobia just plays right into a certain --
BEHAR: Why?
JIM SWILLEY: I think it has to be fear.
BEHAR: Of their own homosexuality?
JIM SWILLEY: Possibly, but also, there seems to be among evangelicals this idea that there is a gay movement that like gay people are -- they`re recruiting people and that`s not true. There`s about -- I don`t know what, 10 percent of the population that is, always has been.
BEHAR: I love it that they have a mega church with thousands and thousands of people and they worry about other people recruiting.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: They`re recruiting.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
JIM SWILLEY: Exactly. But you don`t, you know, turn anybody gay that`s why you can`t turn someone not gay. And so --
BEHAR: I am what I am.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m like (INAUDIBLE).
DEBYE SWILLEY: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
JIM SWILLEY: Exactly. Well, even Paul wrote in Romans and said, talked about the potter and the potter`s wheel. He said can the thing formed say to him who made it why did you make me thus. Meaning, that you are who you are.
BEHAR: I don`t get that. Some ceramic of stuff thing? What was that?
JIM SWILLEY: He`s talking about like God is like the potter.
DEBYE SWILLEY: Your creator.
JIM SWILLEY: Think outside the box.
BEHAR: Oh, God is the potter.
JIM SWILLEY: Yes. And so, the pot can`t say -- why is this funny all of a sudden?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
JIM SWILLEY: The pot can`t say why did you make me like this? You have to say I`m God`s creation. However, God made me that`s how I am and that`s how I`m supposed to be.
BEHAR: You would think that they would think that, you know? That God made all his children in his image and all that stuff. They preach.
JIM SWILLEY: Exactly. The big make or break with everybody is people who say it`s a choice. And that`s an argument that you just keep having, is too, is not, is too, is not.
BEHAR: OK. One more question before I go. I`m running out of time. Gene Robinson, the first openly gay Episcopal bishop. He just announced he`ll retire early because he`s getting a back lash and death threats have taken their toll on him. Are you afraid of anything like that coming at you?
JIM SWILLEY: Not until you said it just then.
BEHAR: Well, I mean, there`s a lot of crazy people out there and mean.
JIM SWILLEY: Absolutely. And in all seriousness, we beefed up security at church the last few weeks for that reason.
BEHAR: Really? You should. What about your own parishioners, though? You know, your congregation? I mean, maybe they`re going to get angry with you.
JIM SWILLEY: Well, most of the people who are there now -- they`ve been through so much with me. You know, I`ve pushed --
DEBYE SWILLEY: They`re amazing people.
JIM SWILLEY: I`ve pushed them so much theologically or whatever. I think some of them didn`t see it coming. And I`ve broken off some relationships. There are some people that (INAUDIBLE) with me I never thought would have.
BEHAR: I have to say, I think it`s great what you did, because there are a lot of kids out there who see you and say, you know what, it`s getting better. People are coming out as you should. Thank you very much.
JIM SWILLEY: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: Goodnight, everybody.
END
