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Joy Behar Page
Royal Wedding; Boys in Pageants; Where Should Sex Offenders Live?
Aired November 16, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: The British Royal Family announced that Prince William and his girlfriend Kate Middleton are finally tying the knot. I`m so happy for them. Kate is a commoner, which makes me even more excited because there is still hope for me and King Gustav of Sweden.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, after dating for eight years Prince William and Kate Middleton finally announce their engagement. The queen has given her blessing but will bringing a commoner into the fold cause problems for the royal family?
Then we`ve all seen the dolled up pageant girls but more and more boys are entering these shows and winning. Joy will speak to a mother and son pageant duo about the allure of the crown.
Plus, Bristol Palin plays the pity card saying fellow "Dancing with the Stars" contestants don`t like her because she is a bad dancer.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Prince William and his long-time girlfriend Kate Middleton are engaged and even though Middleton is not a royal, Queen Elizabeth said she is absolutely delighted. In fact, she was so delighted she accidently cracked a smile. The pair gave their first official press conference today.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE MIDDLETON, PRINCE WILLIAM`S FIANCEE: (INAUDIBLE) We had a wonderful holiday in Africa. (INAUDIBLE) It was very romantic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you get down on one knee?
PRINCE WILLIAM, BRITISH ROYALTY: You`ll have to wait and see. That`s a secret.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here now with more details are Katie Nicholl, author of "William and Harry" and royal correspondent for the "Mail on Sunday"; and Betsy Gleick, the executive editor for "People" magazine.
But first I want to go to Richard Quest, CNN International anchor, who is at Buckingham Palace. Hello Richard.
Now, the British tabloids called her "Waity Katie" because it`s been a long time that they`ve been together and they finally are hooking up. Right?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: That is indeed true. There are also some other odd things. For instance, because Kate Middleton`s mother was once a flight attendant, when she was at university with William, whenever she walked into the room, his friends would unkindly say, doors to manual and things like that. So she has had a lot of ribbing over the years. She`s waited eight years.
In the interview tonight in Britain they both talked about how long it had been. And he said, it`s a good thing that they`ve had such a long courtship because it`s a long relationship. They`ve got to know each other in the good times and the bad.
Some would say that "Waity Katie" had waited long enough but she even, Joy, admitted that tonight she was a bit shocked when the proposal arrived.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, he gave Kate his mother Diana`s engagement ring, which was I guess a sweet thing for him to do. Was that a surprise for her?
QUEST: Oh, I think -- I think that`s an understatement (INAUDIBLE) by her reaction when she was talking about it tonight. He said he gave her that ring -- there were two answers really. First of all because the ring was very special to him and Kate is very special to him but also in the interview he also said he gave it to her so that he could feel that his mother was part of what was taking place. Whichever way you look at it, Kate Middleton is now sporting a rather splendid sapphire and diamond ring that was, of course, would have belonged to her mother-in-law.
BEHAR: It was rather splendid. You`re right. Now, we know that the queen didn`t really care that much for Diana or Fergie. She didn`t like any of them. But suddenly she`s happy about Kate. Has the queen mellowed over the years or is she sick of the drama?
QUEST: Oh, I think you`ve jumped a leap and a half there, Joy. I mean, you know, look. The queen never really had anything against Diana. If you remember, you`ve seen in the movie "The Queen" that famous bit where he says, you know, Diana had set out in many ways to destroy what the queen stood for in that respect, but I think there`s a difference now.
Post-Diana, post-Fergie, the royal family realized they had to move on. They had to modernize. And what we`ve seen here with this relationship, the way it`s been structured, the way they`ve been together. I mean, let`s not be indelicate about it. We`re all men and women of the world.
William and Kate are effectively living together in North Wales at the moment. So it`s not a huge leap. But what I think happens now is that the royal family gets to prove that they`ve learned something. They get to show that they recognize the mistakes that were made in the past.
BEHAR: That`s right. Ok. Thank you very much, Richard. Enjoy yourself while you`re there. Bye.
Ok. Prince William and his fiancee, Kate Middleton, sat down for a quieter interview after the press conference, so watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIDDLETON: I really didn`t expect it at all. I thought he might have sort of maybe thought about it, but no. It was a total shock when it came and very excited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Now, I want to turn to my panel. Katy, Middleton is in line to become a queen but she has no royal connections herself. Does the country care at all about this?
KATIE NICHOLL, AUTHOR, "WILLIAM AND HARRY": I think initially we were quite surprised. There has been a bit of snobbery I suppose probably from the older courtiers that she is not blue-blooded aristocracy that Diana Spencer was but look at what happened with Diana. It doesn`t always work out that way.
I think most people think that it`s a breath of fresh air to the British Royal Family and the response that we`ve had over in the UK today to the news of the engagement is everyone just seems to really be embracing Kate and just to be very, very happy for them both. So no, I don`t think it matters at all.
BEHAR: Well, you know, it`s interesting to me that she could become the queen because she is married to the king but Prince Philip could never become the king. It`s interesting to me in the sense that it`s as someone put it, reverse sexism. We usually worry about the women not getting their due but in this case it`s the men. That`s interesting to me.
NICHOLL: You are absolutely right Joy. You`re absolutely right. We call it the peculiarities of our royal family. But yes, she will be queen and I think just coming back to your initial point about her being a commoner, that perhaps as we move into a more modern monarchy it`s going to be good for us to have someone who`s in touch with the public, in touch with commoners and bring that to the House of Windsor. I think that`s really very important.
BEHAR: Except the word "commoner" should be stricken because it`s a very pejorative way to describe the average person as common. Don`t you think?
NICHOLL: Well, let`s say, down-to-earth maybe. Shall we be slightly kinder and say down-to-earth?
BEHAR: That`s better.
NICHOLL: I was with Kate today at the palace. She is grateful and she`s ecstatically happy. On the face of both of them, you can just see so much relief. This has been a long time coming.
In my book I talk about a pact that they made way back in 2007 so they knew that this was going to end up in a wedding and now it looks like it`s probably going June, 2011 so excitement and happiness and relief as well.
BEHAR: Well, we`re happy for these boys also because they did lose their mother in a rather violent manner and we are very happy that he is happy and hope that it`s for real.
Now, his dad, Charles, he didn`t really get to marry the one that he seemed to be in love with, which was Camilla.
BETSY GLEICK, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: No. That`s right. He said of Diana, I think I can fall in love with her. We know how badly that turned out.
BEHAR: Yes.
GLEICK: So this couple at least right now while we`re all so thrilled about it, they seem to have done it right. They`ve really got to know each other. They know each other`s families. Prince William calls her father dad. They seem very modern and stable.
BEHAR: I wonder how Philip really feels about it because you never know with Philip.
GLEICK: No, you don`t.
BEHAR: I saw the movie "The Queen" and he had his little personality going on there.
Kate, has Diana`s -- Kate Middleton, rather, has Diana`s ring but how will Kate and William`s wedding and their marriage differ from Diana`s do you think?
NICHOLL: Well, if today is anything to go by, Joy, it`s going to be as big if not bigger than 1981. I mean, standing outside the palace today and broadcasting was a great experience. There is such a buzz. People are so looking forward to this.
We`ve had a tough time in Britain. We really need something to just lift our spirits. There is nothing quite like that, you know, a royal wedding to just make us all happy.
BEHAR: That`s true.
NICHOLL: So I think it`s going to be huge. I really, really do. There is a lot of affection for these two. You know, any of the princes, like you said, they are Diana`s children. We are very, very fond of them and we want to see them married and happy.
BEHAR: yes. It was a heart-breaking situation for those boys.
The other thing is I was reading that they could possibly get married in Westminster Abbey which is where they held Diana`s funeral, the "Candle in the Wind" and that whole thing. Isn`t that a little strange?
GLEICK: Well, I think the fact that he has given her his mother`s ring is a clear signal that he`s not disowning the Diana legacy. I mean to him, she was his mom. That`s it.
BEHAR: That`s right.
GLEICK: And the ring -- I think the ring is the start of what is going to be quite a lot of pomp and circumstance.
BEHAR: What about Kate`s parents, Katie? What do we know -- I know that they`re self-made millionaires.
NICHOLL: Very, very normal. They are. They`re hard working. And the "door to manual" jibe which I reveal actually in my book, was every time poor Kate went (INAUDIBLE), his friends would snidely whisper "doors to manual" because her mother was an air hostess and her father was a pilot. They`ve both jet-setters now; they run a very successful online business. They have a beautiful house in the countryside.
I`d say Americans would refer to them as very, very well off. And no, her parents are lovely people and you can imagine, absolutely delighted. They holiday with William and, of course, it was when we saw those pictures of them at Balmoral, we knew this was coming.
BEHAR: Ok.
All right, thank you both very much. And good luck to the happy couple.
By the way, Kate and Wills if you`re watching, you guys don`t even have to thank me for the crock pot. It was my pleasure.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know, when you think of children`s beauty pageants you usually see them as little girls in little gowns and tiaras. But there are more and more boys competing in these pageants. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACY MILLER, 5-YR-OLD SON COMPETES IN PAGEANT: My name is Tracy and 5-year-old sons Zander is a pageant king.
Oh let me put your clear gloss on your lips.
A lot of people are wondering why boys are in pageants. They think he`s going to be on the wrong side of the fence. I`m so not concerned.
Ok. So I am a little concerned.
ZANDER MILLER, COMPETES IN BEAUTY PAGEANTS: I just love doing all this stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So what lures boys to the glitz and glamour of the pageant world? Here now to discuss further, Tracy Miller, a pageant mom whose two sons compete in pageants. With her is her 6-year-old son Zander a pageant competitor who is featured on TLC`s "Toddlers and Tiaras." And -- and here with me on the set is clinical psychologist, Laura Markham.
Let me start with Tracy and Zander. Tracy, how and when did Zander start in pageants? How old was he?
T. MILLER: He was about 18 months when he started and he has been doing them ever since. He just -- we just found an ad in the paper and -- and entered him in to it and it just took off from there.
BEHAR: And you have another child who is only three now. Did you start that child at 18 months also?
T. MILLER: We tried. We tried doing his first pageant pretty close to that age. He was not interested at all. Did not show any interest, actually threw a fit on stage. So we knew that it wasn`t for him. And then out of the clear blue he asked to do one at the beginning of this year so we put him in one and he enjoyed it. He wanted to do another one.
BEHAR: Why do you -- why do you think he changed his mind, he was watching his brother?
T. MILLER: I`m not sure what changed his mind. And I really -- I really don`t believe this is something he really wants to do. Once -- like once he can see how much fun soccer is or football then I -- I definitely think he`ll be going that way --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I see.
T. MILLER: -- going over to that.
BEHAR: Zander, let me ask you what do you like about being in pageants? What`s so great about it?
Z. MILLER: I -- I get to do my thing and win trophies and crowns and sashes.
BEHAR: Can you -- can you tell me what he said, mother, because I couldn`t quite get it.
T. MILLER: He likes to do his thing and get crowns and sashes and I don`t think Zander really knows -- he actually wins a lot of money doing these, too.
BEHAR: Oh he gets money, yes. You know, on the TLC show Zander said he doesn`t like to lose because you might be sad. Do you think he is doing this for you?
T. MILLER: I`m not sure where that comment came from. I -- I honestly don`t believe Zander is doing them for me. I think he may have heard me say I don`t know what I would do if Zander ever lost because he`s never lost. So he may have got it from there. But I -- I mean, Zander, are you doing this for me or for you?
Z. MILLER: Because I want to do it.
T. MILLER: There we go.
BEHAR: What did he say? I can`t -- because he wants to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
T. MILLER: Because I want to do it.
BEHAR: So Zander do you think your mom would be sad if you lost?
Z. MILLER: No.
BEHAR: No. You would be sad. Do you think you would be sad if you lost?
Z. MILLER: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes. You would be sad.
Well, you know, people do lose things all the time. You know? Not everybody wins. What do your friends say at school about you being in the pageant, Zander?
Z. MILLER: That they -- they really don`t say much about me in pageants.
BEHAR: They don`t -- they don`t bother you or bully you about it? Or did they bully -- mother, do -- do the children bully your son at all or tease him about it?
T. MILLER: As far as I know, no one has ever teased him or bullied him, picked on him, made a bad comment. All I`ve heard is, wow. That`s cool. Girls chasing him on the playground, all positive right now.
BEHAR: ok. That`s fine. Ok. So you know what?
The thing about it is, unfortunately there is a stigma attached to boys when they do traditionally girlie things. When they play with dolls or they put on tiaras or dress like girls or whatever. They have a little bit of trouble with their peers. Are you -- are you concerned about that at all?
T. MILLER: Zander is a very strong personality. He is not a follower. So I`m not too worried about Zander having issues. He`s -- we`re raising him, you know, care about yourself. Don`t hurt others. As long as you`re happy and you`re not hurting anyone, then don`t worry about what other people say. I know words hurt and I know people are mean and hateful.
BEHAR: They can be.
T. MILLER: And they can be very mean and hateful. But I don`t feel that I`m sheltering Zander but I am definitely letting him be happy.
BEHAR: Yes. I hear what you`re saying. And when he gets a little bit older though it might be a little bit different because, you know, he gets older, children change as they grow. Physically they don`t look the same. What`s going to happen then? Or are you not thinking that far ahead?
T. MILLER: It doesn`t matter if he`s changed -- if his looks change. He`s still going to be Zander. It doesn`t matter if his body changes. He`s still going to be Zander to us. To the public I really don`t care.
BEHAR: Ok. All right, thanks, Tracy. And thank you, Zander. Good luck to both of you.
T. MILLER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s talk to clinical psychologist and parenting expert Laura Markham. You just listened to the interview. The kid enjoys the pageants.
LAURA MARKHAM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
BEHAR: What`s the big deal about it?
MARKHAM: He seems to like them.
BEHAR: So what would be wrong with it?
MARKHAM: I actually don`t think that pageants are good for kids in general. They teach kids to be inauthentic.
BEHAR: Inauthentic?
MARKHAM: Inauthentic. They teach kids to have a false self and to perform at an age, at this age it`s very early, before they have developed other gifts that they might have. On the other hand, I want to say that`s for girls and boys.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARKHAM: And I also -- I also think that all children come to us with gifts and we want them, we don`t really care about them, you know -- the criticism here is about homophobia, I think.
BEHAR: Ok. Hold that thought. We`ll be right back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with clinical psychologist Laura Markham and we are talking about boys competing in beauty pageants.
So Laura, you were saying something about homophobia involved. Where were you going with that?
MARKHAM: Well, I think when a boy does things that are traditionally thought of as girlie it invites the full crashing down of homophobia on their heads and parents have to be aware that that could happen to their son.
Now, of course, is it ok with us if this boy might grow up gay? He is no less dear to us because he is gay. Right? But there are people in this culture who are hateful and homophobic and get nervous if pink is a boy`s favorite color.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARKHAM: And so when a boy wants to dress as a princess for Halloween or act in a beauty pageant sometimes they suffer the consequences of that and parents need to support them through this.
BEHAR: But you`re not implying, I don`t think, that if a child is in a beauty pageant and likes girlie things that it will make him into a homosexual.
MARKHAM: Not at all.
BEHAR: No.
MARKHAM: There is no way to make someone gay.
BEHAR: Exactly.
MARKHAM: If we could make people gay or straight all of those gay people throughout history who suffered at the hands of homophobia would have been straight. We can`t do that.
BEHAR: That`s right. I know.
I think that that point has to always be made over and over again that it is not a choice.
MARKHAM: That`s right.
BEHAR: You know, people should not be attacked for something that they can`t help. If they wanted to be straight they could have been. They would have. But they can`t. Ok.
So what about this business of the kid feeling sad if he loses? That I thought, that was not good, because kids need to know that they can lose at baseball games and pageants as well.
MARKHAM: Absolutely. And any time a parent is too invested in the child`s performance, there is a problem there. Clearly, this boy had never lost before and his mom would have -- she said, I wouldn`t know what to do if he lost. That is a heavy message to give to a little kid.
BEHAR: I think so too. I mean recently an 11-year-old boy was bullied for being on a cheerleading squad. Isn`t bullying -- you talked about the homophobia but just bullying with his peers.
MARKHAM: Well, but we know that bullying is picking out someone who`s different. Homophobia is fear of someone who is different in a particular way. Right? So much of the bullying that goes on is, in fact, using language that calls somebody gay whether they`re gay or not.
BEHAR: Yes, I know.
What is the mother supposed to do? What should she do this woman? Should she take him out of the pageant? She has another one, 3 years old. She said that kid didn`t want to be in. That was interesting.
MARKHAM: Right. Right.
BEHAR: She didn`t seem like she was going to push that other one into it if he didn`t like it.
MARKHAM: No she didn`t and it did seem that the older boy really loved doing it now.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARKHAM: Clearly this is a choice the mother made. She started him off when he was a baby. He didn`t make the choice to do this.
BEHAR: No.
MARKHAM: Now he likes it. He`s finding meaning in it. If it helps him discover who he is, I suspect that this is not going to go on for long into his childhood. I suspect, you know, when you look at the research on this, kids usually reach a saturation point and they don`t want to do it anymore.
BEHAR: Well, you know, I think that children should be allowed to be free to do what they feel like doing. As Marlo Thomas -- free to be you and me -- said. Right.
But I think that children are programmed to some extent to enjoy the applause, to enjoy the adulation, all that goes with being in a pageant, being in a beauty contest. You know, I don`t think that it`s the healthiest way to raise a child. That`s just me.
MARKHAM: I think -- in fact, the research shows that it`s not a healthy way to raise a child, that kids are prone to getting eating disorders, anxiety disorders.
BEHAR: Well, yes. There`s that.
MARKHAM: It`s actually a really bad way to raise a child in beauty pageants and it does train kids to feel they need to perform at all times.
BEHAR: Exactly. Ok. Thanks very much, Laura.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: It`s been almost 30 minutes since I talked about today`s big story, the upcoming royal wedding. And with me now to discuss this and other stories in the news are actress Joan Cusack, Leeza Gibbons Emmy award winning TV personality and founder of the Leeza Gibbons Memory Foundation. I almost forgot what it was. And comedian, Rich Vos. OK. Welcome to the show, you guys.
JOAN CUSACK, ACTRESS: Thank you.
BEHAR: Now, this guy, he`s a prince, William. Wills as I like to call him wills. He`s the world`s most eligible bachelor besides Jon Gosselin.
CUSACK: Right.
BEHAR: She`s beautiful but a commoner. Do you think it can work?
CUSACK: didn`t it already happen?
LEEZA GIBBONS, TV PERSONALITY: it already worked.
BEHAR: Well, they have to be married now. Do you think the marriage will work?
CUSACK: I do.
BEHAR: You do.
RICH VOS, COMEDIAN: I think she`ll do everything in her power to make it work. You know, he`s a prince. And he had to ask her father for permission.
GIBBONS: No, he didn`t.
VOS: Yes.
GIBBONS: He asked her first, then the daddy.
VOS: Yes. Well, of course, he`s got to ask the daddy after that. And the daddy that`s like publisher`s clearinghouse coming with a check, you know? Of course, you can marry my daughter. I would bring my daughter to the side and go, you do whatever he (EXPLETIVE DELETED) tells you to do, you know? He`s a prince.
BEHAR: These people are multi millionaires themselves. They don`t need the money.
GIBBONS: I thought he was a pilot, and they were more
BEHAR: But they also -- they have a business. They became very, very successful.
VOS: From the internet?
BEHAR: Some kind of party favors or something.
(LAUGHTER)
GIBBONS: Where they make the royal crowns and drones and stuff.
BEHAR: Now, these guys, they`ve dated on and off for eight years. They`re kind of an old married couple already, aren`t they?
CUSACK: They`ve worked through all the stuff. Like he has some serious baggage, doesn`t he?
BEHAR: What, because he`s the prince?
CUSACK: Because he`s the prince and because his mother had such a profoundly failed marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So, he has psychological baggage.
CUSACK: I think he`s got a lot --
VOS: Oh.
CUSACK: I mean, and she`s got the ring and the same color who dresses the same color. It`s like, what was that movie about the woman who --
GIBBONS: "Single White Female."
CUSACK: No.
(LAUGHTER)
CUSACK: I think it`s Rebecca. BEHAR: Oh, Rebecca.
CUSACK: The person is always there and it`s Rebecca and it`s going to be Diana.
GIBBONS: There is some energy on that ring, though. I think it`s lovely and really sweet and special to him, and I think that that was kind of a beautiful part of the story, but I don`t know how I would feel about the ring.
CUSACK: But maybe she will do it better. Maybe she will be the next generation. She will be a princess in the eyes of the public.
GIBBONS: I think she`s lovely, and I think they`re going to make it.
CUSACK: And she won`t have a terrible marriage and die.
BEHAR: You`re saying he needs a therapist before he --
CUSACK: I think they all do.
BEHAR: Oh, yes, I do, too, but that`s not going to happen.
CUSACK: Why not?
BEHAR: Because the royal family is used to "off with their head" and not ought to "deal with my head."
VOS: Anybody getting ready to get married needs a therapist to begin with.
GIBBONS: Are you married?
VOS: Twice yes.
BEHAR: His lovely bride --
VOS: No, don`t get me wrong. She`s OK. You know. I mean, the first one was all right.
CUSACK: She`s no princess.
VOS: You know?
GIBBONS: A lonely night tonight.
VOS: Every night is a lonely night.
BEHAR: Did her father ask you, what, did you --
VOS: Did I ask her father?
BEHAR: Did you ask her father for permission to marry her?
VOS: He`s a farmer. Are you kidding me? I`m a comic. Are you kidding me? He`s just happy if his electricity works. He didn`t care. They came to our wedding in flannels. You know.
BEHAR: OK. All right. OK. Now, you know, Wills is a good looking guy and speaking of good looking men, let`s talk about Keith Richards. In his new book, he talks about a reckless driving conviction he got in Arkansas in 1975. OK. Now fast forward to 2006 when then governor Mike Huckabee pardoned him. Keith now says the only reason Huckabee did that was to further his political career, and then huckabee is a terrible guitar player to boot. OK. A little petty?
VOS: Yes.
BEHAR: For Keith to pull out the guitar card?
VOS: I wish he would have said this a couple months ago before I bought the five-CD collection of Huckabee. You know what I mean?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Is he like Peter Levengelo?
VOS: Are you kidding me?
GIBBONS: Huckabee pardoned everybody. I mean, clemency was sort of the big legacy of this whole term, I think.
CUSACK: It`s kind of sad that he had that little moment with Keith that he thought was so wonderful, and now, Keith is --
BEHAR: That`s true. I mean, he went back stage during a concert in 2006 and he said, by the way, Keith, you know, I pardoned you.
GIBBONS: Because he loves the Stones, right?
BEHAR: He loves the stones?
GIBBONS: Yes
VOS: You think that`s weighing on Keith`s mind that a traffic violation from 30 years ago --
CUSACK: Why did he even bring it up?
VOS: Compared to the blood transfusion. What?
GIBBONS: Does he write? How does he even write?
BEHAR: Who? Keith?
GIBBONS: Yes.
BEHAR: Keith is a genius.
GIBBONS: He is?
BEHAR: Keith is a genius. Keith writes all that music.
GIBBONS: Really?
BEHAR: Yes. He`s brilliant.
GIBBONS: I have no idea.
BEHAR: He`s a brilliant guitar player. And his book is good, too. I wish he`d come on my show.
CUSACK: He will.
BEHAR: No, he won`t. I know it.
CUSACK: He loves strong women, though. He does. I`m sure he must love you, Joy. He loves your type.
BEHAR: I would love to have him here.
CUSACK: He`ll be on.
BEHAR: You think so?
CUSACK: Yes.
GIBBONS: Would you sing with him if he came on?
BEHAR: Absolutely I`ll sing (SINGING) under my thumb. OK. By the way, we asked Keith Richards to confirm this story, and he said, quote, "every word is true where the hell am I?"
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Finally, Bristol Palin, says one of her co-stars, Maxim (INAUDIBLE) has been trashing her behind her back. She claims this is because he thinks she can`t dance. What do you think of that?
GIBBONS: Well, listen, Maxim probably thinks anyone on the show can`t dance. I couldn`t dance. When I was on the show, he was nice to me. That`s all I can say.
BEHAR: Oh, you were on the show?
GIBBONS: Season 4. I can`t believe you missed me, Joy. Come on.
BEHAR: They say Republicans watch "Dancing with the Stars," so I`m a Democrat more or less.
GIBBONS: There`s left leaners on the show.
BEHAR: I know. Yes.
GIBBONS: No, I think that Max -- I don`t know. I mean, there are people that think she can`t dance. I think she`s done unbelievably well.
BEHAR: You have to give her credit for sticking to it.
VOS: You don`t think liberals dance? Who do you think has been dancing around the White House for two years now?
BEHAR: I know. That`s true. They did a study and I read last week. It said that Republicans watch "Dancing with the Stars." Democrats watch "Mad Men."
VOS: Oh.
GIBBONS: Really.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. Something more like nitty gritty that Democrats don`t like the dancing. They don`t care for that.
VOS: Well, Sarah Palin, her mom said that the dancing helps her deal with being, you know, a single mom, you know, and going through the breakup.
BEHAR: That`s right.
VOS: And t dancing has helped a lot of single moms throughout history, you know.
CUSACK: Be the change you want to be.
VOS: What`s that?
CUSACK: Be the change you want to be. Be a dancer.
VOS: Yes. That`s what I`m saying.
CUSACK: If that`s what you want to be.
VOS: Well, I`m talking about different dancing that`s helped single moms.
(LAUGHTER)
CUSACK: Oh, gosh.
GIBBONS: Interesting.
BEHAR: Horizontal dancing.
CUSACK: Yes. You have to be on with Keith.
BEHAR: Let`s do Sarah before we go because she`s happy that Bristol went on the show after breaking off her engagement with Levi. She said, quote, "she`s putting her life in God`s hands, and it`s scriptural, too," which is a real word. We looked it up, where it says, this is part of a quote, "he will turn your morning into dancing." God wants you dancing with the stars, I guess. I mean, what do you make of that?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you know, maybe.
GIBBONS: I think it is probably more of a religious experience when the situation would rip his shirt off.
BEHAR: Yes, baby.
GIBBONS: But I`m just saying, this could be inspired -- I think she has really -- that is what the show is about. That whole metamorphosis, that, you know, getting outside and taking a chance.
(CROSSTALK)
GIBBONS: She`s really taking the risk.
CUSACK: I think like the big picture though is like we need more like (INAUDIBLE) shows. There`s something depressing about "Dancing with the Stars." sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. I got to go. I love this conversation. I could sit here all night, but we have to go. OK. A quick note, Joan is working with Glad Products in the battle against pediatric cancer. For more information, go to glad.com/.com/glad to give and check out Leeza`s new campaign for Alzheimer`s caregivers at alzheimer`s.com. What are you doing, Rich? Nothing.
VOS: What am I doing?
BEHAR: Alzheimer`s disease.com. What are you doing?
VOS: Some gig in Ft. Myers this weekend.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll be right back.
GIBBONS: And having your divorce.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You`re too good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, America`s most wanted host, John Walsh, talks about his latest target, American pedophiles traveling overseas in order to buy underage sex slaves. Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Well, on that same topic, California judge, Peter Espinoza, recently overturned portions of Jessica`s law which prohibits sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of a school or a park. So, was the judge correct or should sex offenders be banned from living in certain areas?
Here to debate this are Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, Robin Sax, former prosecutor and author of "predators and Child Molesters," and clinical psychiatrist, Dr. Gail Saltz. Now, the judge said that sex offenders can live near parks and schools. Robin, what do you think of that? A good idea?
ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: No, absolutely not a good idea whatsoever. It`s amazing that a superior court judge decided that his opinion was more important than the voters in the state of California and basically already poked holes of Jessica`s law that was passed by voters.
BEHAR: Aha. Jayne, what do you think of the idea?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that it`s just promoting leper colonies. I think that we need to revamp the entire sex offender out sphere because it`s just too over inclusive. We are including people that are downloading and looking at pictures like, not you Joy, but other people in the day would look at, you know, their parents magazine. Downloading is like file sharing today. And these kids that are doing that, 20, 23, they`re getting lifetime bans of sexual --
SAX: I agree with what Jayne is saying there. As a matter of fact, that is probably a big problem within the registry. It`s not what the rules are for registered sex offenders so much as it who is on the registry themselves.
BEHAR: OK. You`re talking about one point of this conversation, which is that they`re lumping -- you can relate to this, too, Gail, they`re lumping people who download porn or a young boy, 18-year-old, who is sleeping with a 16-year-old girl.
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST, MY PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: Right.
BEHAR: With child molesters on this registry. That`s a very good point that you`re making. They should be on different lists.
SALTZ: I mean, we`re talking about the difference between frankly normal behavior, an 18-year-old sleeping with a 16-year-old girlfriend or whatever legally might be the issue. That`s normal behavior as opposed to somebody who has a real what we call a paraphilia or perversion like pedophilia or someone who wants to rape.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: And that`s someone with, you know, a problem that, by the way, is not going to respond well to treatment and has a much higher recidivism rate.
BEHAR: That`s right.
WEINTRAUB: Well, we can`t guide people and monitor people just because of what they`re thinking. I mean, come on. This is not 1984. I mean, ladies, we have to think about who can we monitor? We want to get to the real violent sex offenders? That should be labeled sex offenders and not be near our kids. Those are the dangerous people.
BEHAR: Right. That`s true.
SALTZ: We`re not talking about monitoring people who think something. I agree with you. People think all kinds of things that they never act on, but when somebody has committed a criminal act that`s a violent sex offense --
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: You know, that`s someone that clearly needs to be monitored. One, we`re not going to make them better.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: Quite honestly, and two, they`re going to repeat that crime.
SAX: And not even just a violent sex offender but a sex offender that violates very young children. They don`t need to do it in a violent way, but there should be a distinction on the sex offender list between the worst of the worst, the ones that prey on kids, the ones we don`t want around our children, and the owners should be on them not to live near schools. If we throw everyone together, that`s when you start getting into the school problem and wearing down the issues.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s just talk about the violent sex offenders for a minute. Let us just separate the two, OK? One reason that the judge gave for overturning the law was that it forces sex offenders into homelessness. So Jayne, what do you say to that?
WEINTRAUB: I say that I agree with the judge, and I think it`s a terrible situation because even somebody who is a first offender, and I agree, a violent sex offender, they shouldn`t be out, period. They shouldn`t be getting probation or parole. But if it`s somebody who was worthy of parole or probation, what`s the message if you just put them out and they have nowhere to live.
The homeowners associations, we all have local rules at residential communities that are all gathering and saying you can`t live here. So, what do we do? We put them under bridges in Miami and it`s awful. They can`t work. They can`t go to school. They can`t live. What`s the point? We`re just promoting more criminal activity.
BEHAR: The knee jerk response for all of you is that, you know, you should lock them up and throw away the key, but that`s not reality. It seems to me this is an intractable problem. On the one hand you say, they cannot be cured. I`m talking violent now molesters. People who actually touch children and injure them in one way or the other psychologically or physically. That is not feasible to say that you can just lock them up and forget about them.
WEINTRAUB: Joy, it`s such a small tiny percentage of the sex offender label that these people are getting. I mean, you have people that are just looking at the pictures, then you have people who are chatting on the internet, who are wanna-bes as I call them, and those people, too. They are labeled sex offenders for life. I mean, they are promoting, you know, that --
BEHAR: We all agree that they should separate the list. We`re agreeing on that.
WEINTRAUB: True.
BEHAR: But now, I`m talking about the A-list of sex offenders who need to be controlled.
SALTZ: So, the A-list of sex offenders. I have a question whether they`re really homeless because they can`t live near a park or a school or whether they`re homeless for some other issue --
SAX: I agree.
SALTZ: Like mental illness or, you know, inability to work with people. To figure out how to survive and be in a home somewhere.
SAX: Right.
SALTZ: That they can`t operate with other people. And that makes them even greater risk, frankly, for repeating a violent crime that they`ve already done in the past.
BEHAR: OK. Robin, what do you want to say, Robin?
SAX: And I can`t tell you how many sex offenders I have seen actually faying (ph) homelessness because it is in their interest not to be monitored. So, they choose to have a homeless-type of transient status when they`re in fact not homeless. So, the numbers are skewed that were seen, and I just find it outrageous that a superior court judge decides on his own will in a superior court setting, not a federal court, not any sort of ballot or election, decided that they were going to annihilate Jessica`s law. That`s outrageous.
BEHAR: Janie?
WEINTRAUB: It`s so political.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
WEINTRAUB: No. I don`t agree with any of it because I think it`s also very political. I mean, you know, these constituents that vote, they`re not dealing with the issues. This is not something to legislate. This is something to treat. This is an illness. This is a disease. We`re not talking about the 95 percent.
BEHAR: But is it treatable?
WEINTRAUB: I`m sorry?
BEHAR: Is it treatable?
WEINTRAUB: Well, if it`s not treatable, then what do you want to do? Then, we need to warehouse these people? You can`t warehouse people. You need to find treatment.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: The problem is, you know, treatments that work well, physical castration works incredibly well.
BEHAR: What does that mean?
SALTZ: We`ve decided we won`t do that in this country. I`m not advocating for it.
BEHAR: Does that really work?
SALTZ: Well, physical castration works which means you`ve really removed all possibility of there ever being -- you know, that`s a permanent situation as opposed to chemical castration where you give them medication that blocks hormone, but this is something that someone can stop taking at any point that they choose.
I`m not advocating for any of these. I`m just saying when you look at, quote, "treatments" out there, there`s aversive behavioral modification which works minimally in these kinds of really violent offenders.
BEHAR: OK. I want to take a break now. Hold on a minute We`ll be right back with more on this topic. Hold on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the rights of sex offenders and what they have -- what should they do? OK. And do they have rights? Do they not have rights? You`re talking about castration which is interesting because physical castration, does that really remove the desire and --
SALTZ: That`s exactly it. When you talk about removing testosterone, that is the hormone of desire so, yes. It certainly greatly decreases desire. Does it eradicate it?
BEHAR: Isn`t a lot of child molestation, all of you can weigh in on this, about power over the child?
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: That has nothing to do with sex.
SAX: Absolutely.
SALTZ: But you can`t actually perform.
BEHAR: What do you do with that?
SAX: If they don`t use the penis, then they`re going to use the finger, they`re going to use the tongue, they`re going to use some other object.
SALTZ: Right. This is not a hundred percent. It`s not a hundred percent. I`m just saying if you look at the data in countries where this is done, it greatly reduces the recidivism rates. I mean, this is obviously taking away someone`s civil right more than living near a playground. I mean, you know, I`m not saying this is something we could do. I`m just saying if you look at the data available --
SAX: Right. If you can`t deal with the school rules, how is the country going to respond to castration?
SALTZ: Right.
SAX: That will never happen in this country.
BEHAR: What about GPS? How do you feel about GPS monitoring? That would be hard for them to get a job if they have that thing attached to them so then they become a burden on society.
WEINTRAUB: I`m sorry, but they can`t get jobs. They can`t get into a school or a college or even a community college. Are you kidding? They have to fill out whether they`re a sex offender. Would you want to employ a sex offender in your place of business and then become liable? I don`t think so. Why do you think they`re living under the bridge? Because they are labeled sex offenders.
BEHAR: If it was an 18-year-old boy who slept with a 16-year-old girl, he could work for me. If he`s a man who molests a child, no, then he can`t work for me. So, I mean, there has to be some kind of differentiation here. I think that we started this with that. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: One girl. One at a time.
SAX: In addition though, the other problem is that we`re sitting here wanting to put the burden on the innocent children and innocent people. The fact of the matter is, sorry it`s inconvenient for the sex offender to have to get a job. That`s something that they must deal with as a result of the crime that they did. That`s not us doing the crime.
WEINTRAUB: But they can`t get a job. That`s the problem. I represent somebody who is 24 years old, who was an inexperienced, socially awkward kid, chatting on the computer, just awkward, socially awkward. A dork, in my opinion. And P.S. He is a lifetime registered sex offender, and he`s a great guy.
BEHAR: OK. Jayne, but you`re back on the other point which we all agree with you on that. We`re trying to get to the bottom of how would we deal with the worst sex offenders here in this --
WEINTRAUB: They should be in prison if they are convicted. That`s the problem here. They don`t get out.
BEHAR: So then, throw the key away. Lock them up and throw the key away. That`s what you`re really advocating then, right?
WEINTRAUB: For somebody who has preyed upon children and physically abused children and raped them? Yes, that`s what I thought.
BEHAR: A life sentence.
SALTZ: Let me also add and for most of these people who committed really violent sex crimes, when they`re picked up and they`re given say a lie detector test and it serves their best interests they need to now tell the truth, they often admit to many past crimes that they were never picked up for.
So even, whatever numbers we`re looking at at recidivism or repeat offense, I`m talking about for violent sex offenders is an under estimate. So, I mean, I think the onus shouldn`t be on the victims or the potential victims.
BEHAR: Ever. OK. Thank you very much, ladies. And thank you for watching. Goodnight, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
