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Joy Behar Page
Royal Wedding: The Road Ahead; Publicist Gunned Down; Sex Trafficking
Aired November 17, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: "People" magazine has put out its 50 sexiest men list. And I have a little bone to pick with them. Look, I`m not saying that Ryan Reynolds and George Clooney and John Hamm aren`t sexy but my crew is not exactly chopped liver.
God, they`re hot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Kate Middleton has passed eight years of tests but is she truly ready for royalty? And now that she`s wearing Diana`s ring, how will she handle the legacy of the People`s Princess?
Then, a big time Hollywood publicist is gunned down in Beverly Hills after leaving a premiere party. John Walsh, host of "America`s Most Wanted" is here to talk about it.
Plus, more American women than ever are deciding not to have children, but is there a stigma? Joy talks to three women who are childless by choice.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Prince William and his fiancee Kate Middleton announced to the world yesterday that they were engaged. But to Kate, who is not a royal, the road ahead will likely not be an easy one. The couple talked about it yesterday on ITN. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCE WILLIAM, UNITED KINGDOM: Well, she`s excited. You know, we`re looking forward to spending the rest of our lives together. And seeing what the future holds.
TOM BRADBY, ITN: Do you -- you`ve had a long time to sort of contemplate this moment --
WILLIAM: Let`s not overreact.
KATE MIDDLETON, PRINCE WILLIAM`S FIANCEE: No. It is definitely nerve-racking because I don`t know what -- I don`t know the ropes really, (INAUDIBLE) but now I`m willing to learn quickly and work hard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I wish they would just break into a cockney accent, but they won`t.
Here now are Mark Saunders, biographer of the royals; Jessica Callan, news director for "Life and Style Weekly".
But first I want to go to Tom Bradby from ITN who conducted the couple`s first interview yesterday. Ok Tom. How did you get the interview, first of all?
BRADBY: Good question. I guess I don`t really know in one sense. I mean I`ve known William and Kate for -- certainly William, for quite a long time. I cover politics here now, but many years ago I covered the royals briefly and it was a time where they just wanted to come out in the media and have somebody at least that they could have a relationship with.
I got to know them reasonably well and have remained pretty good friends with William and Harry and got to know Kate a bit recently. I guess they just wanted someone they knew and where there was a bit of a friendship and they felt comfortable with.
BEHAR: Well, good for you.
BRADBY: Don`t forget -- well, just don`t forget, let me say, the royal family is haunted here by that interview that Charles and Diana did all those years ago where he said, whatever love means. And it was played back over and over again.
So everyone -- they wanted to avoid that. And by the time I was sitting there, I wanted to avoid it, too.
BEHAR: Well, they seem very chummy, even in the interview with Charles and Di in those days, they seemed a little nervous around each other, but these two don`t seem that nervous, although she seemed a little bit nervous. Not him.
Did you feel as though -- like he kept jumping in to save her from time to time? Did you get that?
BRADBY: It didn`t feel he was jumping in to save her. I mean, you know, Charles and Diana, absolutely no sort of physical chemistry as far as I could ever see. Whereas these two have got a heck of a lot of physical chemistry, there`s absolutely no doubt about that. There`s an emotional and strong physical bond there.
And I think he`s quite protective of her. You know, was she nervous? She`s never, ever done anything like this before. She`s suddenly doing an interview that`s going to be likely broadcast to probably hundreds of millions of people around the world and I`ve had texts from all over. There are people watching it in Japan. People watching it in Korea. People watching it in China.
Not only that, but it`s going to be replayed and replayed for the next 50 years. So it was a pretty tense thing to do and she was nervous, yes. But I thought she got through it fine.
BEHAR: But let me ask you something Tom because you were there. How were they acting when the cameras stopped rolling? Because that will tell you something.
BRADBY: Relief. It was just kind of --
BEHAR: For you or them? Who was relieved; the couple was relieved or you were relieved?
BRADBY: Well, you know, I do this for a living so, I guess, I wasn`t particularly nervous. We just wanted to get through it in a relaxed way. We spent a long time upstairs beforehand, you know, chatting as we do, and I was just kind of joking and laughing.
We talked a little bit about the interview and what ground I would cover. But mostly it was just sort of hanging out and having a laugh. And that was pretty good. And then afterwards we did the same. We did, you know, lots of -- William cracked a joke about every ten seconds.
BEHAR: Do you sense that these -- that they are truly in love with each other or, you know, is it for show? Some kind of publicity thing or she`s right for the throne or something like that?
BRADBY: Oh, no.
What do you think?
BRADBY: No, I don`t doubt for a second they`re really in love with each other. You know, their love story has not always been smooth. I think they`re a couple who met quite young. Probably a period where he thought one woman for my whole life, really, is that it?
But at the end of the day, you know, they`ve gotten through it. He`s decided that, yes, this is what he wants.
I think we have to be clear. I mean, you know, William is -- has seared through his soul, the craziness of his parents` split-up. Not just the divorce but the craziness that came with it, the public nature of it, the international sort of obsession with it. And he -- he doesn`t want that.
BEHAR: What about the time they taped him -- when they tapped into his phone and he said some rather graphic things to Camilla? Being in that spotlight is not fun, I don`t think. It seems like it`s not fun, to me.
BRADBY: It`s not. It`s horrible. I think several things have you to understand. William doesn`t want that. He wants domestic happiness. He`s fine to be king, he`s happy to accept whatever comes. But he`s not going to trade that for domestic happiness. And I, I just would be -- I`d eat my hat and my shoes and everything else if they ever got divorced.
BEHAR: Yes. Really?
BRADBY: I can`t promise you they`ll always be happy, but I think they will be.
BEHAR: Ok. I`m going to hold you to that even though I wish them well.
BRADBY: Yes.
BEHAR: Thanks Tom, very much.
BRADBY: Ok, thank you.
BEHAR: Now I want to turn to my panel. Jessica, they`ve been dating for eight years, right?
JESSICA CALLAN, "LIFE AND STYLE WEEKLY": Yes. They were at university together. They`ve known each other for nine years, dated eight years. Split up once about three years ago and then, of course, yesterday the big announcement. So they`ve known each other for a long time.
BEHAR: Does she have a clue what she`s going to go through with the paparazzi and scrutiny?
CALLAN: She`s got a slight clue. I mean she`s had eight years of this. She`s had people following her around. She`s had people working on her -- her last job when she worked for a fashion label, watching everything she gets up to.
She`s been followed by the press. She knows what it`s all about. But of course, she`s now going to be one of the most photographed women in the world.
BEHAR: In the world.
Now Mark, the girl is very private, it seems to me. She doesn`t really give interviews and she seemed a little nervous in front of the cameras in this interview. Do you think that she should get some media training or something like that? To deal with what`s coming up?
MARK SAUNDERS, ROYAL BIOGRAPHER: Well, don`t think you could ever actually get any sort of media training for what is going to come up. I mean, we remember with Princess Diana or Prince Charles, unfortunately, it`s impossible to discuss this without bringing Charles and Diana into it, but --
BEHAR: I know.
Saunders: -- I mean very, very quickly the whole situation became completely out of control. Because nobody had any idea how massive it was going to be.
Now, I know that they`re doing their best to make sure there isn`t a repeat like that, but the press interest already is so big, how could you train somebody? How could you tell them what`s going to come?
I was most interested in Kate`s reaction -- I`m sorry, Katherine`s reaction to the cameras what she first came into the room at Clarence House. It was an incredible barrage of flashes that hit here. And there was complete bemusement and for a moment I thought I saw utter terror in her eyes. It was almost as if that was the moment -- that was the realization that this is what it`s going to be forever.
BEHAR: Yes, indeed.
And the other thing is that she`s now wearing this famous engagement ring, the blue sapphire, which is quite pretty, but she`s different from Diana. She`s older. Pardon my French but she`s not a virgin. Diana, I assume was. She was 19.
CALLAN: Diana was 19. They got married when Diana just turned 20. Kate`s 28 and of course, she`s been with William for eight years.
You know, Diana and Charles were together for about eight months when they announced the engagement. Not only that, but Kate`s been living with William as well.
BEHAR: I know. Exactly. She`s been around the block a few times. She`s a nice girl --
CALLAN: You don`t want the queen to behead you if she hears you say that.
BEHAR: I know, the queen is quite strict. Do you think the public will treat Kate with the same affection that they treated Di?
CALLAN: Of course, Diana was the queen of hearts. She was the --
BEHAR: The people`s princess.
CALLAN: Exactly. The nation`s sweetheart.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s a hard act to follow, I tell you.
CALLAN: Very hard act. But she`s, so far, acted with a lot of class, very demure, hasn`t reveled in any of this. Also, she hasn`t been tipping off the press, which is what Diana did a lot of.
BEHAR: Diana used to do that?
CALLAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: Well, she was rather young and immature in many ways I think - -
CALLAN: Yes. But this is in her later years she was tipping off paparazzi.
BEHAR: I think she was ticked off at the royal family.
CALLAN: Absolutely.
BEHAR: And that`s what that was about. One of the great interview is where she says, there were three of us in the marriage.
Let me ask you quickly, Mark, about the in-laws. I was reading this one report that said that the in-laws said something in front of the queen, which was something to the effect of -- the word toilet came up and the queen was horrified.
Do you think that the queen is going to see them as rather declasse? I know you have an incredible class system in England so that sort of goes with the territory. What do you think?
SAUNDERS: Well, yes, I mean, the grotesque class system that we still maintain in this country, is virtually unexplainable to Americans, but I --
BEHAR: It is.
SAUNDERS: They`re not the in-laws like say, my in-laws are where I could just bring up my father-in-law or I could argue with my mother-in-law and I could --
BEHAR: Yes.
SAUNDERS: -- you know, it`s not that sort of situation.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, we`re happy for them no matter what.
You know, I have to go. I ran out of time again. Oh, thank you very much, guys. We`ll be back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Famed Hollywood publicist Ronni Chasen was murdered last night after attending a movie premiere. Chasen was shot in the chest several times. But so far the LAPD have few clues as to why she was targeted.
Here now to talk about this case and more is John Walsh, host of "America`s Most Wanted". John, what exactly what happened last night?
JOHN WALSH, HOST, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, Joy, this wonderful woman, very respected in the Hollywood community, a -- a terrific representative of people like you and I, a press person, that -- a very renowned press person, was basically executed. She was just gunned down after leaving a premiere and brutally murdered. And everybody is wondering why.
LAPD has reached out to "America`s Most Wanted"; if they don`t solve the case soon, we`ll probably profile it. But it`s just another -- another example of senseless violence here in America.
BEHAR: Is it senseless or could it possibly be that she was targeted? I mean, there were no threats, I know that, but do we know if she had any - - any kind of enemies? I mean, she was a publicist. Maybe she ruffled some feathers. I don`t know.
WALSH: Well, I think --
BEHAR: I mean people are crazy out there.
WALSH: Well, they certainly are, Joy. And you know, you and I have talked about this before. You know, that -- that I think Bill Cosby summed it up one time when he said, someone can be a crime victim anywhere in America. Michael Jordan`s father was killed for a car. Bill Cosby`s son was killed for a --
BEHAR: Right.
WALSH: -- Mercedes Benz in Beverly Hills. So to me, it`s all senseless, it`s all too violent.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But did they take anything from her?
WALSH: Not -- not to anybody`s knowledge. I mean, they`re in the preliminary, you know, investigation of this. And -- and everybody`s saying that this is a woman who had no enemies, that this may be just a random act of violence. And I -- I don`t -- I don`t know what someone could do, especially a woman with her reputation, that would make someone so mad that they would shoot you multiple times --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Exactly.
WALSH: -- in the middle of the street. Yes.
BEHAR: There`s something strange about it. But we`ll try to follow it, to see if anything comes up because it`s a very mind-boggling kind of story.
Now, ok, let`s move on to something else.
I want to ask you about your latest project, which is a special -- a special on sex trafficking. How big is the sex trafficking industry?
WALSH: Well, I think a lot of people have the misconceptions that it only happens outside the United States. I`ve been on the road for the last month, been in Cambodia. I saw children sold. They`re -- they are sold on the streets.
And -- but people have the misconception that -- that sex trafficking only happens outside the U.S. There are 100,000 kids that are involved in prostitution here in the United States, being exploited by pimps and the creepy guys who pay to have sex with children. America is the country -- the richest, the best country on the planet, in my opinion, that has the biggest sex trafficking problem.
BEHAR: And now the children that they`re using in these sex trafficking cases coming from within the United States or from outside?
WALSH: Both.
BEHAR: Both.
WALSH: They -- they estimate that about 12,000 to 15,000 are people that are brought from other countries, but the vast majority of those 100,000 children that are being exploited in this country are American kids.
BEHAR: Well, let me ask you something, then. If they`re bringing them in from other countries, let`s say, how do they get past securities? Since 9/11 we have very, very intense security checks now. How do they -- how do they get through costumes and everything else so easily?
WALSH: Well, our borders are still very, very porous. And there are coyotes that bring people across all the time. I mean, the reality is we have 15 million illegal people in the United States that got across the border. And 9/11 hasn`t really changed things as far as people smuggling. It`s slowed it down, it`s made people more aware, but people are still getting into this country.
And coyotes and pimps from Central America and Mexico are bringing very young girls, sometimes kidnapping them, sometimes telling them, we`re taking you to a better life. You`re going to be, you`re going to work at a Starbucks.
BEHAR: Yes.
WALSH: You`re going to work at an Applebee`s and next thing they know they`re in a hotel room somewhere being used as a -- used in prostitution.
BEHAR: Did you see the movie with Liam Neeson called "Taken"? Did you see that film?
WALSH: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Do you think that`s realistic what happened in that film?
WALSH: Well, it happens in America. And this week we have a -- a beautiful young woman, she`s a young woman now, but she was involved in that. And she is from a lovely family that was promised that, you know, the dreams of working in the entertainment business. And she is the living example of "Taken," this -- this wonderful woman, Natasha, that will be on the show this Saturday night.
BEHAR: Right. How much are these women and children sold for? What kind of money do these people make?
WALSH: Well, it depends on -- on how -- what type of pimp they`re working with. Natasha happened to be a very attractive, beautiful woman. So she was on the elite level that traveled around to big events like the Super Bowl and they go to big conventions and these pimps take these women, brutalize them, exploit them, scare them to death.
I spoke to Elizabeth Smart this week. And she said, you know John, people say to me, how come I never tried to escape during the eight months? She said, this guy repeatedly reminded me that he had gotten in my house, that he could go back and kill my little sister and my family. That`s why I never ran.
Same thing happened in Natasha and lots of these girls are put in different levels depending upon their looks and they are brutalized, dehumanized, scared to death to get out of it and moved around the country. So it`s very hard for cops to catch these pimps.
BEHAR: Right, right.
Now, in your special you ask viewers to help catch these accused traffickers. How can a viewer actually help? And then we`re going to bring Natasha in, in a minute too. So tell me that, how can a viewer help?
WALSH: Well, two things. This is really a call to action. I mean, I have -- as much as I think I know about the exploitation of children, the more I got into this more recently. And when I found out there were 100,000 kids that were being used in prostitution in this country, I said, you know what, our -- our Congressmen, our Congresswomen, they need to know that the laws need to be stiffened and that people need to be punished.
So people can help. They can certainly go to AMW, you know that Joy, so I mean, I -- I`ve been on your other show, you know, and talked about these creeps, and that`s how people can help. They can go to amw.com and leave their tip. They can remain anonymous.
You and I have said it before, Joy, we don`t need to know your name. We don`t trace calls. We don`t tap calls.
BEHAR: Right.
WALSH: Pick up 1-800-CRIMETV --
BEHAR: Right.
WALSH: Yes, absolutely.
BEHAR: And help the police. Ok. John, we`ll be back with Natasha, a sex slave who was able to escape. So don`t go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing sex trafficking with the host of "America`s Most Wanted" John Walsh and joining the conversation is Natasha Herzig, who was abducted at gunpoint as a teen and trafficked around the United States as a sex slave for ten months before she escaped.
Welcome to the show, Natasha. Tell me, what was life like during those ten months, if you can encapsulate it?
NATASHA HERZIG, SEX TRAFFICKING SURVIVOR: Well, it was very scary. A lot of -- a lot of psychological terror; it`s almost like living in invisible chains. As if you`re physically being chained up but they`re invisible -- nowhere to go, nowhere to run to. You feel that all you have to do is just listen to them to survive.
Each day is a day of survival and trying to do your best so that you can get through that day.
BEHAR: But how did you manage to escape? Not everybody can escape. You did it. How did you do it?
HERZIG: Well, the girl that I was rescued with, the night before she had been beaten pretty bad by my trafficker. At that point I decided enough was enough. And I called somebody and I told them, please call my parents. And I was afraid to call the police just with the things that I had been told.
And this person called my parents. They called the police. And before I knew it, the police were at my door at where I was being held and they were rescuing us.
BEHAR: The lesson you learned was you should have called the police maybe or turned them in earlier. I mean, it`s easy to say in retrospect but that was the right thing to do, wasn`t it? John, was that the right thing to do?
WALSH: Well, absolutely, but I know this woman`s story firsthand. You`re so terrified. You`re so afraid that that pimp and those people are going to kill and go back and hurt your loved ones. It`s very hard. They control your life every minute of the day. I know what these creeps do.
And a woman like this -- and she was a young girl -- lives in terror. That`s why I say the public has to get involved. People have to help. And I think that when people see her story, and I think and hope other girls that think there is no way out, that -- as we all said, I make the analogy.
I saw Elizabeth Smart testifying so bravely on that witness stand because she said I need for the world to know what this creep did, what this guy did to me for eight months. I hope that there are girls that are going to watch on Saturday night or even this interview, Joy, and say, here`s a woman that did it.
BEHAR: Right.
WALSH: She escaped. She was brave enough, she was dehumanized, her self-esteem was taken away from her, she was beaten on a regular basis, but she got away. There are some happy endings to this.
BEHAR: Yes, I think that this is a very instructive segment we`re doing here. In case any of these people are watching, any of girls are watching, you know, think about --
WALSH: And, Joy, how can these creeps do this? You know, you and I talk about this. Did they not have a mother or a grandmother or a sister? How -- and the guys who pay to do this, they`re just as bad as the pimps and it happens all over America.
BEHAR: There`s a lot of evil in the world and a little evil goes a long way. You need ten good people for every one evil person, I think.
WALSH: You`re absolutely right.
BEHAR: It`s just impossible -- there`s so much of it.
Ok. I`ve run out of time. Thank you guys very much.
Be sure to tune in for John`s special investigation on sex trafficking Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on "America`s Most Wanted" on Fox.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, more women than ever are deciding not to have kids, but is there still a stigma? Joy talks with three women who are childless by choice. Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: You know, those kooky Palin girls are in the news once again. Thank goodness for my show. Last night, Bristol Palin advanced to the finals of "Dancing with the Stars" basically because the tea party is voting like crazy. In fact, they just elected Willow Palin, Secretary General of the U.N. And willow herself is making headlines by throwing around homophobic slurs on Facebook.
Here now to discuss this and, oh, so much more are comedian Judy Gold, Dick Cavett, legendary talk show host and author of "Talk Show" and Erika Vetrini, senior editor of "In Touch Weekly." Welcome to my show. Hey, Dick, it`s a pleasure to have you here.
DICK CAVETT, TALK SHOW HOST: Well, you too. By the way, I should warn you that anything I say might seem a little prejudice because my blog about Sarah Palin was entitled, "The Wild Word Smith of Wasilla.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. So, we know where you`re going.
CAVETT: The line most people remembered from it for some reason was she seems to have no first language.
BEHAR: Exactly.
JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: That`s so true.
BEHAR: Like George Bush.
GOLD: Some as a second language.
BEHAR: So, Sarah was interviewed by Barbara Walters, and it was leaked it`s going to be on -- I don`t when. I thin next week. But it was leaked that Sarah Palin actually said and then we`ll get to Willow in a minute. Sarah Palin actually said to Barbara that if she was up against Obama in 2012, she would win. She actually thinks that. Could she win?
GOLD: No! She can`t win. Are we that stupid?
ERIKA VETRINI, SENIOR EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": we are leaving.
GOLD: Hello.
BEHAR: Now, here`s the story with Willow Palin. On Sunday night, a kid named Trey who went to school with the Palin kids -- are they all named Trick, Trey --
CAVETT: They ran out of names.
BEHAR: OK. This kid Trey, who`s not related, wrote on Facebook, quote, "Sarah Palin`s Alaska" is failing so hard right now which prompted Willow to reply, "ha, ha, you`re so gay." She didn`t spell it right, though. I don`t know who you are but I`ve seen pictures of you, you are disgusting. My sister had a kid and is still hot. OK. Where do you think this Willow picked up this language?
CAVETT: How do you misspell gay?
(CROSSTALK)
VETRINI: This is my point, and I think I`m expecting it. It`s really fresh in my mid. I have a 2-year-old daughter. As a parent, isn`t it your responsibility -- I don`t believe their camp is saying that she doesn`t use this language. This is new. I don`t believe that. She`s 16 years old. This is the way she speaks. And when you hear that your child is speaking this way, it`s your responsibility as a parent to inform her that`s not the proper way to talk.
I even think about the people that we meet on the streets that talk this way, and that I`d have to have a conversation with my daughter and say, that`s not appropriate.
GOLD: Right. Right.
VETRINI: And that really -- that says something I think about Sarah Palin`s parenting skills.
BEHAR: Another part of this, she used -- I`m not going to say the word because it`s offensive. It`s the "F" word about gays. Everybody knows what that is. I don`t need to say it. I mean, it`s really --it`s beneath content.
GOLD: Can you even imagine, even the Bush twins, the Obama girls, Chelsea Clinton ever using language like that?
VETRINI: Absolutely not.
CAVETT: You have to feel sorry in a way for her parents because the money they blew on finishing school for her.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, Bristol got into the act on Facebook --
GOLD: Bristol who, you now
BEHAR: Bristol who just -- is on --
GOLD: Can I just say they stole the election and now they`re stealing "Dancing with the Stars"? It really -- I can`t even -- you know Brandy was so much better than her.
BEHAR: I know, but she has all these tea parties voting for her because of her mother. But anyway, she responded to Trey by saying, you`re a typical (EXPLETIVE DELETED) talker. Talking (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because you have nothing else going for you. What is with -- I mean, shouldn`t she know better, Erika? She plays the victim just like her mother. The whole family are all victims, you know?
VETRINI: How do they get -- they`ve been around for a while now. They`ve had to have press training. How do they not know that Facebook is an open forum that we`re all going to (INAUDIBLE). How did they not know that? And what bothers me more is that it wasn`t even live. What they said and they quoted. She had time to think about her message and write it. That says something.
BEHAR: She did apologize. She said, Willow and I shouldn`t have reacted to negative comments about our family. We apologize. On a nicer note, thank you for supporting the great competition.
GOLD: That`s not an apology. That is not an apology.
BEHAR: Who do you think got to her, mother`s banker?
GOLD: You know what, Sarah Palin makes me look like a good mother and that`s really bad, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So, is that an apology, Dick, do you think?
CAVETT: I would say it`s an apology in the idiot sense.
(LAUGHTER)
CAVETT: To put it politely.
BEHAR: Well, you know, I have a feeling that the more we trash this family, the more popular they get.
GOLD: Right.
BEHAR: I really -- I`m so ambivalent about it because they do make you angry, these people, and yet, you know, they`ll move right into the White House. It`s scary.
VETRINI: No, we`re leaving. My husband said to me, he`s like, we`re moving out of the country.
BEHAR: No, no, don`t say that. Alec Baldwin that we`ll talk about in a minute, he said he would do that, and he couldn`t.
CAVETT: What history look back on these times with her as one of the great admirations of the history of the country?
VETRINI: Oh, absolutely.
CAVETT: The enthusiasm for a know nothing who might have been president.
GOLD: And if she becomes president, she certainly will not be the education president. I`ll tell you that.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s talk about this. Alec Baldwin and Nora Ephron are apparently having a little tiff. It`s interesting, OK? Here`s the story. Baldwin blasted Ephron on "The Huffington Post" saying "Dora simply cannot shut up about her anger, her betrayal and her bottomless contempt for her ex." Nora Ephron fired back. She knew who Dora was. She`s not dummy.
She said, "I`m afraid -- she`s so funny. "I`m afraid that Alec whom I love" -- there are people always say that when they are about to stick a knife in you -- "has confused me with Kim Basinger, which is the first time anyone has ever done that." OK. Their feud has gotten so bad Willow Palin is not speaking to either one of them. So, who is wittier, Alec or Nora?
CAVETT: Well, was Dora supposedly Alec`s attempted disguise or did he have a code?
BEHAR: No. It was his sort of attempt to do that.
CAVETT: I do like them both.
BEHAR: I do, too. We love both of them.
CAVETT: I just can`t help noticing something. What a pairing of women that we`ve just -- the two we have just discussed, Bristol and -- and here you have one woman who`s brilliant, highly educated, wonderful writer, very successful, has a lot of class and then you have Nora Ephron.
(LAUGHTER)
VETRINI: Oh, I like her. I like her.
GOLD: Man, I didn`t see that one coming.
CAVETT: I love --
BEHAR: Nora is coming on the show a week or two. We`ll have Nora. I`ve had eaten her dinner. She`s fabulous cook.
CAVETT: I`ve known and loved with Nora for many years, and she will verify that, I`m quite sure, even in public. And she said something recently in her new book that I could totally identify with, somebody had to say it, for people of a certain age, perhaps.
BEHAR: What did she say?
CAVETT: I look at "People" magazine. I don`t know who anybody is.
BEHAR: Well, we all relate to that. But, you know, why can`t -- and he`s sort of criticizing her for bitching about her ex who cheated on her. Why can`t she bitch indefinitely, and she`s a writer --
GOLD: She`s a writer. It`s like, you know, that`s why I have a comedy act.
VETRINI: I read the excerpt. It was really poetic. She was describing divorce. The guy -- the guy I`m saying, Bernstein, he left her when she was -- she was -- he had had an infant and she was pregnant. She had a premature delivery. And this is the kind of stuff that resonates with you for a while, and she wasn`t backing him. She was actually just describing how it had taken over her life. And I appreciated that. I really did. And Alec is just bitter, I think.
BEHAR: OK.
CAVETT: I love Alec.
GOLD: I love Alec, too.
BEHAR: We all love -- we love everybody. We love them. Come on the show and we`ll work the whole thing out. I`ll be like Jimmy Carter to you (INAUDIBLE)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, finally, it`s that time of the year when "People" magazine announces their sexiest man alive, and this year, it`s actor, Ryan Reynolds. OK. Good choice, bad choice?
GOLD: OK. I had no idea who it was. I don`t know who it is. Not that I would care anyway because, you know, I play for the other team but - -
CAVETT: I`m willing to admit that there may be a Ryan Reynolds.
(LAUGHTER)
VETRINI: There is a Ryan Reynold.
CAVETT: Is there?
VETRINI: Yes.
BEHAR: And he`s in "People" magazine, which you referred to before.
CAVETT: Oh, yes. I`m crazy about Ryan -- Reynolds, is it?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, past sexiest man have been Brad Pitt, George Clooney, and Johnny Depp, who, by the way, is living with his girlfriend, the French girlfriend in France because he doesn`t like to live here. Just FYI, Johnny, Paris has bedbugs. O. Moving on.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, is he really on the same level, this guy, as Brad Pitt, George Clooney and Johnny Depp?
GOLD: I don`t know.
CAVETT: How do we say not (ph)?
BEHAR: How about to start it right now?
VETRINI: He`s married to Scarlett Johansson if that means anything.
BEHAR: That makes him hotter, I guess. And she`s so cute.
VETRINI: But Jon Hamm came in second. Come on.
GOLD: Oh, yes, Jon Hamm should be the sexiest --
BEHAR: Jon Hamm.
GOLD: I even pick Jon Hamm as sexy.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Larry King drops by to look back on his incredible career. Now, back to Joy.
BEHAR: Back in a day, a woman`s place was in the home, taking care of the kids, but not any more. More and more women are now choosing not to have kids at all, preferring to sleep through the night and focus on their careers or relationships instead.
With me now to discuss this are Rachel Shukert, author of "Everything Is Going To Be Great," Laura Scott, author of "Two is Enough: A Couple`s Guide To Living Childless By Choice," and Helen Fisher, biological anthropologist and author "Why Him/Why Her." OK, ladies. Let`s get into this. Lori, you`ve done the research. What are the biggest reasons that people do not want to have kids? Or women. We`re talking about women.
LAURA SCOTT, AUTHOR, "TWO IS ENOUGH": And particularly women --
BEHAR: Yes.
SCOTT: Is lack of desire. Seventy-five percent of the women I surveyed said I have no desire to have a child, no maternal instinct. That`s huge. And also --
BEHAR: How many?
SCOTT: Seventy-five percent of the childless by choice women --
BEHAR: They have no maternal instinct.
SCOTT: They claim they don`t.
BEHAR: Is that like a deformity?
SCOTT: Society thinks so.
(LAUGHTER)
SCOTT: What is wrong? This woman doesn`t want a child. There must be some dysfunction.
BEHAR: Helen, how much do you find that in the animal kingdom? I bet you don`t find that a lot.
HELEN FISHER, BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGIST: They don`t have any choice either, you know, but animals do, you know, cull in a herd. If they can`t actually raise their young, they`ll kill their young because, you know, woman has only so much metabolic energy. She only has so much time to raise babies and so many opportunities. So, they are very careful about when they raise a child, a lot of primates.
BEHAR: Primates.
RACHEL SHUKERT, AUTHOR, "EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE GREAT": That`s true. My hamster ate all of her babies.
BEHAR: Your hamster ate all of the babies?
SHUKERT: Yes, she ate all the babies.
BEHAR: Really?
SHUKERT: Yes. I was so excited. She had babies. I was like my hamster is a mommy.
BEHAR: She ate the babies?
SHUKERT: And then she ate the babies.
FISHER: That`s not cool.
BEHAR: What type of hamsters are you raising?
(LAUGHTER)
SHUKERT: Non-maternal ones, that`s for sure.
BEHAR: You`ve been married for four years, but you`re not anxious to have kids.
SHUKERT: I`m not so anxious. I mean, I`m not like totally, you know, I`m not one of these people that`s like, I had my tubes tight when I was 24 years old. I think that eventually I probably will have a baby, but I`m not -- it doesn`t feel like my number one priority right now.
BEHAR: Well, you`re how old now?
SHUKERT: I`m 30.
BEHAR: Thirty. Now, you two ladies have decided not to and I presume that you`re over the egg-producing age.
FISHER: Big time over.
BEHAR: OK. So, when did you make that decision?
SCOTT: I made it about 15. I told my mother -- we were washing up dishes and I said, you know mom, I don`t think I want kids, and she said, that`s okay. I think, you know, education is important. You don`t have to rush into having kids. But she did say that I probably would change my mind.
BEHAR: And you never did.
SCOTT: Well, yes, no, I never did. And I believed her, though. I did believe that at, you know, at 35, there would be this hormonal ticking time bomb, and all of a sudden, I would just, boink, I would want children.
BEHAR: Well, there is, Laura. There` the call, the biological clock.
SCOTT: Sure. Absolutely.
BEHAR: But you didn`t have it either?
SCOTT: No. I never made the decision. I never wanted to have children. I knew it as a small child. Nobody, fortunately, forced me into it. It just simply never interested me. I was always interested in my work. I played dolls as a child. I`m a nurturing person to my friends. I cry at parades, but I never wanted to have children.
(LAUGHTER)
SHUKERT: She`s not an unfeeling monster.
BEHAR: No, she`s an anthropologist and an intellectual, but do you have any regrets at all?
FISHER: I have none. Do you?
SCOTT: No regrets. You know, actually, when I went to interview people, I went looking for evidence of regret. And I did not find it. Curiosity, perhaps, you know that kind of thing like, ooh, I wonder what it would have been like if I had children, but not regret.
BEHAR: What about your old days, don`t you want somebody to be there when you --
FISHER: But will they be there?
SCOTT: We have saved so much money by not having kids. I can hire the hot, Swedish guy to like care for me.
SHUKERT: That`s true.
SCOTT: I mean, really --
BEHAR: So, you don`t have the urge to be surrounded by your grandchildren and have the Christmas tree --
FISHER: No. I want to travel all over the world at Christmas, and you know, I don`t even want to have a dog. I mean,
BEHAR: You don`t even want a dog?
FISHER: No, absolutely not.
SCOTT: I can barely keep a plant alive.
SHUKERT: I would rather have a baby than a dog.
FISHER: For many years, you know, we lived in these little hunting and gathering bands and a woman could hand her baby to the next woman. I mean, these days it costs $250,000 to raise one child before you send it to college. I mean, this is an unbelievable undertaking.
BEHAR: Why does it cost so much money?
SCOTT: Well, they want computers and bicycles and trips to Europe, et cetera.
BEHAR: Well, they don`t have to go to Europe.
SHUKERT: No.
BEHAR: I mean, they don`t have to have every, you know, thing that -- we never had it.
FISHER: I agree with you.
SHUKERT: I think that it`s become really difficult, though, to raise a child in a way that it never was before and that`s something that I sort of talk to myself about a lot when I`m thinking about, you know, am I going to do this? When am I going to do this? It`s that -- it seems like it`s such a project now to have a kid. You know, everybody - I`ve all these friends who have kids they`re like so stressed out about getting the kid into nursery school and then where you`re going to send it to school --
BEHAR: That is a New York and L.A. thing.
SHUKERT: Totally a New York thing.
BEHAR: I do not think that happens in the rest of the country. There are plenty of public -- I went to all public schools up all the way up to graduate school.
SHUKERT: Yes, so did I.
BEHAR: I hardly paid a dime for my education. And you know, you don`t need to spend that kind of money. A recent study found that in 1 in 5 women will never give birth compared to only 1 in 10 thirty years ago. What are the implications of that, Helen, societal wise?
FISHER: Well, I mean, people are certainly worried about, you know, pension plans and who`s going to support the elderly, but I think we`re going to have to let more immigrants in. I mean, there`s plenty of children in the world. It`s just that we have this sort of clannish feeling that we`ve got to propagate our own children, our own historical background.
And I think that the world`s going to -- we`re going to see more globalization and more realization that we`re all human and that we can have other people come in with their children to help us.
BEHAR: There is a stigma attached that you don`t seem to feel.
SHUKERT: Huge.
BEHAR: I mean, they say that -- that you`re selfish, that there`s something wrong with you. This is not attached to men as much as women.
SCOTT: Isn`t that interesting.
SHUKERT: No.
SCOTT: Because, you know, men -- female identity is so tied to motherhood. We don`t have the same equivalent in the male species. So, there is a sense that if you`re a woman and you don`t care to have children, you don`t want children, there must be something seriously wrong with you.
BEHAR: Yes.
SCOTT: That you`re missing a gene or you`re missing, you know, some defect. There`s some detective thing going on.
BEHAR: Doesn`t bother you at all, does it?
(CROSSTALK)
SHUKERT: You know, I don`t know that I`m not going to have a baby, but I do sort of reject the notion that motherhood is the absolute pinnacle of female achievement and it`s the most important thing that you can do. I mean, I feel like you see these celebrities on talk shows, women that are incredibly accomplished and that she thinks that other people can only dream of, and they`re on there like, well, I never really knew what anything meant until I had a baby, and it`s the most important thing I`ve ever done in my life.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Great. We`re going to continue this in just a minute. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel talking about women who are childless by choice. Why do you suppose, Helen, people say that there`s something odd about not having kid?
FISHER: Because there is something odd about it. I mean, from a Darwin evolutionary perspective, you`re choosing to not pass on your DNA on into tomorrow. And in terms of, you know, genetic survival, you have lost.
BEHAR: So, it seems counterintuitive --
FISHER: What`s odd, though, is that we are so sad when women don`t pass on their DNA, but we`re not so sad when men don`t on their DNA.
BEHAR: Well, they want to pass their name on. They`re always about their name.
FISHER: So, I do think it`s a natural response to have a little pity for somebody who doesn`t. On the other hand, times have changed so dramatically, and we`re finally at a time in human evolution when women can make that choice. And I think that`s a thrill.
BEHAR: Do you think that some women actually just make the choice to have kids because they can`t think of something else to do?
FISHER: Sure.
SHUKERT: I do. I absolutely do.
SCOTT: I think parenthood isn`t assumption still for many women and men. And when I did my research, I noticed that parenthood had moved from an assumption to a decision. And the reason why is the people are delaying marriage, were delaying child bearing well into our 30s and 40s, and we had this child-free life. And so, suddenly, when it comes to the point where, OK, when are we going to have kids? Sometimes, that question morphs into, should we have kids?
BEHAR: I see. That`s true. And then they`ve established a life.
SCOTT: They have. And then they have to make tradeoffs.
BEHAR: That`s why it`s better to do when you`re young and if you`re going to do it.
FISHER: Sure. Before you grow up.
SHUKERT: Before you can change your mind.
BEHAR: You know, successful women without kids sexuality is questioned very often. I think of Sonia Sotomayor, the Supreme Court justice, Janet Napolitano, I mean, Condoleezza Rice, Oprah Winfrey, people who are very successful. I mean, they think that they say that they`re, you know, they`re gay and that`s why they don`t want to have children. What do you think about that?
FISHER: Well, I think that`s ridiculous. I mean, first of all, there`s good data that women who climb up the business ladder tend to be the higher in testosterone, and because they`re higher in testosterone, they seem also to be less interested in home and family. So, the kind of woman --
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
FISHER: Who`s at the top of the business ladder is likely to be highly sexual, but whether she`s gay or straight, that is a different part of the brain. That has nothing to do with --
BEHAR: Well, it`s ironic that a lot of lesbians are having babies.
SCOTT: There are a lot of lesbian couples having babies. And I had, in fact, I had a lesbian woman come up to me in film festival and say, you we get as much pressure to have kids as heterosexual you`ll --
SHUKERT: Everybody wants grandkids.
SCOTT: Everybody wants the grandchildren.
BEHAR: Of course.
SCOTT: And so, they do get a lot of pressure and they do feel compelled.
BEHAR: What about these people who are overpopulating, the Gosselins, the octo-moms, these people who have been vitro with hundreds of things in there, you know what I mean? What`s up with that?
SHUKERT: You know, I think it`s interesting how the way that like their kids have sort of like taken the role of kids in the olden days when they all had to work as farmhands.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUKERT: Now, they`re on reality shows instead of in the field.
BEHAR: Yes, exactly. I mean, what do you make of that?
FISHER: Well, I think it`s as if -- I mean, now people regard that as littering. And you know, as if we`ve got too many people on this planet to begin with.
SHUKERT: That`s true.
FISHER: So, it`s interesting that --
SHUKERT: Much greener it is to not have kids. That he feels he can have steaks and things because he doesn`t have kids. It`s like I can drive a Hummer. I don`t have a kid.
FISHER: Well, you know, we ended up having one or two children per woman, and we`re moving back to that now, one or two children per women.
BEHAR: A country like Italy has zero population growth. And that was always about the bambini. When are we going to said (INAUDIBLE) OK?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Thank you, ladies. And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
