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Joy Behar Page

Madoff Suicide; Let`s Make a Tax Deal

Aired December 13, 2010 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOY BEHAR, HOST: So I went to the White House Christmas party on Friday night. And it was fabulous. I saw so many people, the President, of course, and Michelle Obama, the first lady. Meredith Vieira was there, Robin Roberts, my new BFF Bill O`Reilly was there. So at one point I snuck into the Lincoln bedroom and guess who I ran into? Randy Quaid and his wife Evi; turns out they`re living there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Mark Madoff, son of convicted Ponzi schemer Bernie Madoff, committed suicide this weekend with his 2-year-old son asleep in the next room. So did he have a guilty conscience or was the media spotlight too intense? How will this affect the lawsuits against the Madoffs?

Then Miley Cyrus is caught on tape apparently smoking a legal hallucinogen. The video is sparking a furor among adults who want to ban the herbal drug while its sales have spiked among kids.

Plus more and more wives are earning more than their husbands. But new studies show men are having trouble adjusting to the role reversal. Joy will examine the power mom backlash.

That and more starting right now.

BEHAR: On the second anniversary of his father`s arrest, Mark Madoff committed suicide this weekend as his 2-year-old son slept nearby. Mark`s mother, Ruth Madoff is reportedly blaming her husband for their son`s death.

Here now to discuss this are Bethany Marshal, psychoanalyst and author; Ilene Kent, her parents were Madoff victims, she`s also the outreach coordinator for Network for Investor Action and Protection; and Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst and staff writer for "The New Yorker".

Ok. Bethany, let me start with you, ok. Mark killed himself with his 2-year-old son sleeping nearby, and his wife was out of town with the other child. What does that tell you about this guy?

BETHANY MARSHAL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, two things come to mind. First of all, to kill yourself when your child is ten feet away is the ultimate act of selfishness, which tells me that he may have been in a major depression and confused in his thinking. Ninety percent of people who successfully kill themselves have a co-occurring psychiatric disorder like depression or substance abuse.

Secondly, people who kill themselves often are impulsive and they cannot think about what is happening to him. So the fact that his wife was out of town with one of the children, maybe she was the support system and the person he used to process things.

His attorney may have told him, don`t get mental help, don`t get mental help, do not talk to a therapist, do not talk to your friends, do not talk to other people because this will eventually come out. So he had no support system, no way to process what was happening to him.

BEHAR: Jeffrey, do you think they told him don`t get any mental health help?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Out of the question. I know Mark Madoff`s lawyer. He would never have told someone not to get mental health assistance. These are quality lawyers, these are reasonable people. It is true that they would say don`t talk to your friends, don`t talk to your mother.

BEHAR: So there`s isolation.

TOOBIN: Yes, there certainly is isolation, but if he wanted to get mental health assistance, he would have done that.

BEHAR: Ilene your parents --

MARSHAL: But you know what? Let`s not forget that when you are being investigated, you`re in a very paranoid state. So even if his attorneys didn`t prohibit him from talking to a mental health professional, he may have been too afraid to.

BEHAR: That could be.

TOOBIN: I don`t doubt that.

BEHAR: Yes. Now, Ilene, your family, your parents lost a lot of money. How much did they lose?

ILENE KENT, PARENTS WERE MADOFF VICTIMS: It was about 85 percent of their net worth. They have some money left. And they`re terrified now of these claw backs.

BEHAR: What was their reaction to this suicide?

KENT: Oh, they were horrified, as I was. The whole family was aghast when we heard about it; it`s a really, really tragic turn of events.

BEHAR: Bernie Madoff`s secretary -- Jeffrey watch this -- opened up to "Good Morning America" about Mark. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had to live for the last two years under the scrutiny and people alluding to the fact that he should have known or he had to have known. Well, you know what? He didn`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: So she`s basically saying that Mark had nothing to do with this whole Madoff scandal.

TOOBIN: And so far, the criminal prosecutors have not charged Mark or his brother with anything. You know, they were the people who, on the night before this whole thing came down, Bernie apparently confessed to his sons. His sons went right to the FBI.

So there is circumstantial evidence that they were not in on it. And prosecutors have never made that case. But certainly there`s a lot of suspicion that that wasn`t the case; that they were involved and certainly there are lots of civil cases against them seeking money back.

BEHAR: Right now, yes. Yes, Bethany?

MARSHAL: Well, Joy, even if he was already exonerated, which it doesn`t sound like he was, that doesn`t mean that he doesn`t imagine that he`s complicit in some way because he was probably very identified with his father. He killed himself on the same day that his father had been arrested. And what that also tells me, suicide is an act of aggression, which is expressed towards the self, but often felt towards others.

It is repressed unexpressed rage. He may have been angry at future employers who would not hire him, at the investigators, at his father and mother for having put himself in this position. There was a lot of anger towards others that may have come back against the self.

BEHAR: Well, it is also possible if he was complicit that he was afraid he was going to get caught and then his life would have been ruined anyway.

It`s like that guy who allegedly shot Ronni Chasen in Los Angeles who shot himself because he didn`t want to go to jail.

TOOBIN: You know, it is hard to think of how there would have been a happy ending for this guy in any case. And I think that`s probably what his thought process was. His name alone --

BEHAR: Well, she changed the name. His wife changed the name of herself and the children, yes.

TOOBIN: But he didn`t. And you know, that name is now so permanently associated with fraud that even if he was exonerated, to go through life with the name Madoff at this point would have been a burden.

BEHAR: Why didn`t he just move out of the country? He lived in a $4 million apartment with a $6 million country house. Pare down and get out, in my opinion.

TOOBIN: Certainly that makes a certain amount of sense. What we don`t know is what deals he made to say I won`t go anywhere, just don`t arrest me. Sometimes those things go on like that. I`ll stay available.

BEHAR: Bethany?

MARSHAL: But Joy, also he had no money. He couldn`t even go out to dinner without his friends paying for him. And your point about whether or not he was complicit, even if he wasn`t, if he was in a major depression, people who are depressed feel guilty, worthless, they`re full of self- recriminations. And they cannot distinguish between the accusatory stance of others and whether or not they`ve really done something wrong, which is why I think it`s significant that he waited until his wife went out of town. She may have been his only supporter at this point.

BEHAR: Now, Ilene, Bernie`s wife Ruth, who I understand is doing good works in Florida now, she`s trying to get back her name and she`s delivering food to the indigent and people who -- shut-ins. So she`s blaming her husband. She blames Bernie for the suicide, which is rough also. What do you make of that? Does she have a point?

KENT: More than likely. I can`t believe there`s not a tie-in with the date, but I`d rather not speculate on that part, you know.

BEHAR: Yes. Ok.

TOOBIN: I don`t think this is any mystery. I mean he killed himself two years to the day after his father was arrested. He was depressed. He was scared. He was anxious. You know, obviously someone who commits suicide has a universe of problems. But the fact that his father is one of the most notorious criminals in the history of the country has to have something to do with it.

BEHAR: Yes. But what about this --

MARSHAL: I think it`s noteworthy that Ruth Madoff is finally able to be angry at her husband. And in terms of blaming him, it might be unbearable for her to think that the family dynamics played a role. But certainly the legacy in this family is of being self-destructive and not thinking about the next generation. Just like Bernie didn`t think about his sons, now Mark hasn`t thought about his son. And that`s how these things go down inter-generationally.

BEHAR: What about -- Jeffrey, what about the fact that this Austrian woman, Sonya Koen (ph), she was getting kick backs from Madoff. And I believe she was about to be arrested or was arrested. Now, that also happened right before this suicide.

So the day two year ago Bernie came to them and said this is what it is, and then this woman is arrested in Austria who`s complicit in the kick backs. I mean the whole thing sounds fishy to me.

TOOBIN: Some of it is not a coincidence. Remember Irving Picard, who is the trustee, the person in charge of trying to get all the money back, he had a two-year statute of limitations to file his lawsuit. So it is not surprising that just as the two years was coming up, he started suing a lot of people.

But one of the great mysteries that remains about the Madoff case is how many of the people he was involved with knew the whole thing was a fraud. And the accusation here is this woman Koen, she knew.

BEHAR: She knew. Yes.

TOOBIN: But I don`t think that`s been proven.

BEHAR: Ilene, do you want to say something?

KENT: Yes. What I would like to add here is that there`s been a lot of publicity about the lawsuits against Sonya Koen and the large banks and (INAUDIBLE) who knew or should have known and almost no publicity against the innocent investor who are now being called back for things like mandatory IRA withdrawals.

And that`s what my organization --

BEHAR: Is that your family involved in this?

KENT: A number of families. A number of people that I know; a number of our members, and people --

BEHAR: I`m just curious, as a family victim yourself, how has your family dealt with the rage psychologically?

KENT: There`s rage. There`s anger, there`s rage, there`s depression. It`s a whole range of events, almost -- I don`t want to make light of, you know, of a death. But it`s almost like a death.

I mean, you know, you have very hard working entrepreneurs who have spent their life working, invested with a man that had SEC approval --

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Right.

KENT: -- it had IRS approval.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: So many people betrayed --

KENT: And it`s gone.

BEHAR: Yes.

KENT: And -- and nobody wants to take responsibility.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHANY MARSHAL: And not -- not only --

BEHAR: Go ahead, Bethany.

MARSHAL: Not only the helplessness, but the loss of one`s hopes and dreams.

(CROSSTALK)

KENT: Absolutely.

MARSHAL: When you grieve, you don`t just grieve the loss of what was, but you grieve the loss of what you thought your future would look like.

So -- so their whole future is unalterably changed.

But when you were saying about Sonya and her being arrested, I -- what I think is this is a great case study for is something called institutional sociopathy, it`s when one sociopath finds another person who has a corruption of conscience, then, they find another and then they may find another and they weave a vast network.

We saw this with Michael Jackson who -- his security guards looked the other way. So they gravitate towards each other. And then all of a sudden there`s a lot of collateral damage. Ilene, your family, the people you know, the investors --

(CROSSTALK)

KENT: Right.

MARSHAL: -- but also this poor little 2-year-old who was only ten feet away from his father when he hung himself.

TOOBIN: Right.

BEHAR: But to that point, don`t you need the SEC to be watching these people, all these sociopaths hooking up with each other --

KENT: That`s right.

BEHAR: -- and screwing people like her family?

TOOBIN: Well --

BEHAR: You need the SEC and where were they?

TOOBIN: Where were they? They were told repeatedly look at this guy --

KENT: That`s right.

TOOBIN: -- look at this guy, he`s running a Ponzi scheme.

BEHAR: Yes.

TOOBIN: And -- and Bernie Madoff was such a cool customer. He met with the SEC investigators and talked his way out of it more than once. I mean, it is incredible testimony to how evil this guy Madoff was and how incompetent the SEC investigators were.

KENT: And not one person has been fired.

BEHAR: And not one person has been fired.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Or the SEC.

TOOBIN: Once they let -- she was sued, not arrested.

BEHAR: Sued, I`m sorry.

TOOBIN: Correct, correct.

BEHAR: Ok, thanks for correcting that. Thank you everyone. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Billy Ray Cyrus says his daughter Miley is beyond his control after a video surfaces of her taking a hit from a bong.

And -- a new report says more women than ever are becoming the primary breadwinner of the family. So how are couples adjusting to this new role reversal?

Now back to Joy.

BEHAR: The Senate voted today to move forward on the tax compromise that will keep unemployment benefits going for 13 months but will also give big tax breaks to the richest Americans for two years.

Here to talk about this are Dana Milbank, writer for "The Washington Post" and the author of "Tears of a Clown"; plus S.E. Cupp, conservative blogger and co-author of "Why You`re Wrong about the Right". Dana, this deal -- this -- the final vote could come tomorrow. Is this deal going to completely pass at this point? We know it will, huh?

DANA MILBANK, WRITER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": You know, every -- every time you say absolutely, completely sure, something goes wrong, but it really does look that way. It looks like this is all baked and ready to go. The -- the President has got enough Democrats and enough support from the Republicans that they`ll make noise in -- in the House, but it sounds like it`s going to happen.

BEHAR: Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing for President Obama, as a Republican?

S.E. CUPP, CONSERVATIVE BLOGGER & AUTHOR: It`s a good thing. I hate this bill.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Why?

CUPP: I`ve got to say.

We`ll it`s larded up with all of these trinkets and goodies which I hate.

BEHAR: Like what?

CUPP: Oh no.

BEHAR: Food -- food for the needy? What?

CUPP: I don`t know that Rome and Puerto Rico is considered a necessity. I mean, we`re giving out a lot of money to -- to places, you know the Hollywood film industry is getting some money out of this. I don`t love that.

I mean, we had an election recently just about that. And -- and I don`t think that two years is really a long enough time to extend the tax cuts to give investors a long-term forecasting ability.

So I don`t love this. But it is good for Obama, it`s great for Obama. It makes him look sort of like, you know, he triangulated between the left and the right and got something done that was thought to be kind of impossible.

BEHAR: But you know, Dana, he did alienate the base because of this. And --

MILBANK: He didn`t.

BEHAR: He did. They`re very angry with him on the left.

MILBANK: They`re -- they`re absolutely furious with him, and yet that`s good politics because you know the -- the whole issue is the Republicans have been coming at him saying you`re a socialist, you`re trying to nationalize the whole economy. And now he can say, aha, no, the socialists are mad at me, too.

So -- so I`m -- I`m a centrist. I`m one of you, independent voters. So it`s very good politics for him. It`s finally -- I think it`s -- it`s good news that he`s finally showed some backbone. Admittedly he`s showing it to his friends instead of his foes. But the fact that he`s found some backbone may mean that he in fact will show it to the Republicans.

BEHAR: Ok, those -- those kind of remarks got you slammed by Krugman among others, you know, many people. And what -- what`s your response to that? They just don`t -- they think that the fact that you`re happy with the President on this one is not a popular position for you?

MILBANK: Well, look, as a guy who just did a whole book attacking Glenn Beck, I`m delighted to be getting a little grief from the left right now.

Look, I mean people have different recollections about why the health care bill failed. I think it`s because Obama gave too much power to Nancy Pelosi. Some on the left think Nancy Pelosi should be running the show more often. That`s an argument I`m willing to take on.

BEHAR: You know, these things are going to be permanent. Republicans would like these tax cuts to be permanent.

CUPP: Right.

BEHAR: Let me ask you something S.E., just as a person in the world.

CUPP: Ok.

BEHAR: These tax cuts did not work under the Bush administration.

CUPP: I have heard this argument --

BEHAR: Wait, let me finish my thought.

CUPP: Yes.

BEHAR: More jobs did not come down the pike. The economy did not get better.

CUPP: South.

BEHAR: The deficit increased.

CUPP: Right.

BEHAR: Why do Republicans and apparently some Democrats think that this will work?

CUPP: Yes, no, you`re right. But I don`t know that anyone`s made a compelling case that there`s a cause and effect between the two. That the Bush tax cuts was either responsible or can be held to blame for the economic downturn or that they should have done something more for the economic downturn. I get that.

But the bottom line is in this kind of economy, you do not raise taxes on anyone, especially, I think, on the top income earners and the people who do the hiring.

BEHAR: Well, that`s the Republican position.

CUPP: Right.

BEHAR: But again, it didn`t work.

All right. Let`s change the subject for a second because on Friday President Clinton took the podium. I love this. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In my opinion, this is a good bill, and I hope that my fellow Democrats will support it. There`s never a perfect bipartisan bill in the eyes of a partisan. And we all see this differently. But I really believe this will be a significant net plus for the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Ok. And then he didn`t shut up for about a half hour.

CUPP: Yes. Yes.

BEHAR: Dana, was this like Obama bringing in the big brother to fight the bullies? Is that what that was about?

MILBANK: I`m not sure he expected it to work out this way. He thought maybe Clinton would say a few words and walk off the stage. So he takes questions, and everybody`s calling him Mr. President, of course, and he`s in the White House briefing room.

MILBANK: Yes, it did have sort of the same thing when George W. Bush would -- you know, why he was reluctant to bring in his dad. But it had that same effect.

On the other hand, you know Bill Clinton has some real credibility on the economy. So it`s an important endorsement. I wonder if Obama thinks maybe he should have handled that slightly differently.

CUPP: I think he probably does. To me, optically, this is how it read to me. The guy I`m currently seeing just left me alone in the room with my dreamy ex-boyfriend, who, let`s face it, I still think about from time to time, ok? That`s how it read to me. Not a good move.

BEHAR: He was very helpful in a way.

CUPP: Yes.

BEHAR: I mean he`s helping to make the case. Let`s not forget during the Clinton years, as opposed to the Bush years, we were in a much better situation economically.

CUPP: It was. It was nostalgic. A very a smart move.

MILBANK: And Joy, there`s a lot of talk about how much -- how long Robert Gibbs will stay on the job. This could be a permanent gig.

BEHAR: Ok. We have a little more time to talk about John Boehner next, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with my political panel, S.E. Cupp and Dana Milbank. Ok.

Now, the future speaker of the house John Boehner was on "60 Minutes" last night. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOEHNER (R), DESIGNATED SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Some things are very difficult the talk about. Family, kids. I can`t go to a school any more. I used to go to a lot of schools. I see all these little kids running around, can`t talk about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

BOEHNER: Making sure that these kids have a shot at the American dream like I did. It`s important.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: You know, he`s like Tammy Faye Bakker, the guy.

CUPP: I will sympathize (ph) with Boehner if I can stop laughing long enough. Look, if Nancy Pelosi can cry fake tears over fake racism --

BEHAR: When did she cry?

CUPP: Oh, come on. Remember that very memorable press conference she gave about Obama care where she remembered back to 1970s in San Francisco and the racism -- I mean, that was a bizarre moment.

BEHAR: But that was one moment. This guy cries constantly.

CUPP: He does seem to have --

BEHAR: He`s always crying.

CUPP: -- some trouble keeping it in. I don`t hold it against him.

BEHAR: Dana, do you know what the diagnosis is here? I mean is he unstable or is he -- what`s the matter with him?

MILBANK: I did do a little research on the Internet, Joy, and crying is the sign of acute nicotine withdrawal. You`ve never seen a man cry with a cigarette in his hand. But it does come up extremely often.

But it`s not such a bad thing. It`s good. It conveys a sense of sincerity, whether it`s in politics for the Speaker of the House or another talk show host with whom you`ve occasionally disagreed.

But it is so important to convey sincerity that some have actually used some insincere methods. I`ve brought some of it right here. A little Vaporub underneath the eyes will get the tears going and it`s nothing but success in politics.

BEHAR: See, I think that they are sincere. That`s what frightens me.

CUPP: Yes. I mean he wouldn`t choose to do this. If he could stop it --

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Yes. I know. Right, exactly. It`s like that girl who has the hiccups constantly.

CUPP: Right. You don`t want to be in that state.

BEHAR: Do you think the American people like this about him or do they think he`s a blubbering fool.

MILBANK: It`s problematic if he`s going to cry because says he can`t go into schools because he sees children and he`ll cry. But there are children in lots of places in American public life.

(CROSSTALK)

MILBANK: The grocery store -- even they come into the Capitol. It could be very embarrassing there on the floor of the House if they`re in the gallery.

BEHAR: But I mean, you know, he basically -- S.E., you have to know that the Republican Party is the party of no and he`s one of them.

CUPP: Ok.

BEHAR: Is not what we perceive on the left to be an empathic party. And so he`s crying about all -- about children and the American dream. I get the impression he votes against a lot of things that would help children, in my opinion. Maybe it`s in the short term, maybe in 20 years those same children who are 35 years old will be able to take advantage of children --

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: That`s a perception of Republicans, absolutely. But it`s not really an accurate one. I mean, when you look at Republicans, a number of studies have been done that Republicans give more than Democrats, for example, when it comes to charity, money, blood, time. I mean, there`s lots of sort of anecdotal evidence that come back that --

BEHAR: Is that true, Dana? She hit me with that. I don`t have any idea if it`s true.

MILBANK: It`s somewhat true on the charity. I don`t know about the blood, though.

CUPP: I`ll cut myself right now.

BEHAR: Do that in front of Boehner and he`ll start crying.

CUPP: He would. He would. He probably would.

BEHAR: Thanks very much to you two.

We`ll be right back in a minute or so.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on "The Joy Behar Show," a new report says more women than ever are earning more than their husbands. So how do couples adjust to this new role reversal? And now back to Joy.

BEHAR: Has Miley Cyrus gone from Hannah Montana to Acapulco gold? Sales of the natural hallucinogen salvia which is legal in California reportedly skyrocketed after a video of Miley allegedly smoking this stuff from a bong surfaced on TMZ. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold it.

(CROSSTALK)

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: You know I used to own a bong, but I traded it in for a vaporizer. "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" reached out to Miley`s people for comment, but as of taping time they had not responded. With me to talk about this and other fabulous stories in the news are Joe Levy, editor in chief of "Maxim," Jennifer Williams, costar of "Basketball Wives" on VH-1, and Lea Delaria, comedian and singer.

The drug is legal, Joe, so what is all the fuss?

JOE LEVY, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "MAXIM": I don`t know. The drug is legal. Now there are impressionable kids going online and saying I want what Miley is smoking and that because it looks delicious. It`s a mild hallucinogen.

BEHAR: Only kids?

LEVY: I think it`s only impressionable teenagers. It`s a mild hallucinogen. Mexican shaman used to use it, only they made tea out of it. When you smoke it, you get a little high.

BEHAR: You know all the jargon. Very interesting. They made tea out of it?

LEVY: I`m a licensed counselor. I can show you how to get high off of this, yes.

BEHAR: But have you ever tried it, anybody?

LEVY: I can neither confirm nor deny.

LEA DELARIA, COMEDIAN: I`m pretty sure I`ve tried what she`s smoking because I don`t think it`s anything other than marijuana. I have smoked marijuana before. I`m a jazz musician. I`ve seen many a person who has been high on marijuana. I`m actually calling her "Miley High-rus" now.

BEHAR: What do you think, Jennifer?

WILLIAMS: I think whatever it was, it was definitely strong.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: She couldn`t recognize her boyfriend. She was going, are you my boyfriend? No, honey, that`s a lamp. You are really high. This girl is a role model for young kids for Disney. What is she doing here? Trying to change her image?

JENNIFER WILLIAMS, CO-STAR, "BASKETBALL WIVES": I don`t know. But you know what? I feel like these celebrities don`t realize that their job is 24/7. Regardless of if you are around with your friends, you never know who is filming you, who has the camera. So I just think she has to be more careful.

BEHAR: She knew she was being filmed. She knew she was being filmed. If you watch the tape, she`s looking right into the camera. Why would you do that?

LEVY: I don`t know. Whenever I have a bong, I say shut off the camera. Stop now.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Why did she do that? Because she`s trying to go from adolescent to teen idol to hot stuff.

LEVY: She`s 18 years old. Her parents are splitting up. I think under those circumstances, a bong is practically legally mandated. It`s a coping mechanism. I`m not saying --

(LAUGHTER)

I guess that would be wrong. But, I mean, a lot of kids do it.

WILLIAMS: I mean, that`s like saying because your parents are getting divorced, like go sniff coke?

LEVY: No, no, no, no. That would be -- marijuana is much better than cocaine.

DELARIA: Absolutely.

WILLIAMS: You`re saying it`s OK for her to do drugs.

LEVY: I`m making a joke. I`m trying to make it funny.

DELARIA: I`m saying it`s OK because I`m all for virgins getting high. I think that`s really important.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Moving on. One of Oprah`s fans had a meltdown when the queen of talk and Gayle King arrived in Australia to do a couple episodes of her show. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DELARIA: Oh, my god.

(SCREAMING)

DELARIA: She`s the best thing. She`s amazing. She`s the queen and Elvis is the king. I love you, Oprah. I love you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Oh, my god, the vapors. Did she not get the memo that Oprah is not a lesbian?

LEVY: Wait a minute. Did you just re-air the Miley Cyrus thing? Is that Miley again?

(LAUGHTER)

DELARIA: I was good to say exactly the same thing. I think she smoked salvia, that one.

BEHAR: She is obviously in love with Oprah Winfrey. She has the hots for her.

DELARIA: Why are you looking at me?

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: I can`t take my eyes off that hair.

DELARIA: Maybe because it`s because you dress like a boy.

You know, Joy, I would also like to take a moment to put out the memo that I`m actually not a lesbian either. This has all been a career move for me.

BEHAR: Really? You`re very good at it.

DELARIA: If Oprah will do it, I`ll do it as well. I have a husband at home named Stedman.

BEHAR: I don`t understand why this is such a big deal about her sexuality, Oprah`s. When Phil Donohue put on a dress, remember on the way out of that show?

LEVY: I remember it every night.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Nobody questioned his sexuality. Why is everyone questioning Oprah`s sexuality all the time?

LEVY: Longstanding rumor, she`s never married. She goes everywhere with Gayle. People put two and two together and got some number that apparently is incorrect. I don`t know.

DELARIA: Can I take it one step further and say in the heterosexual society that we live in any strong woman becomes suspect for being a lesbian. I`m not just saying that because I`m often suspected of being a lesbian. If you`re a strong woman, if you`re savvy, rising to the top of a field, you are, poof, a lesbian.

BEHAR: Is this the cross that you bear, that people think you`re a lesbian?

DELARIA: It`s just a nonstop thing for me, Joy. And the women that throw themselves at me.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: I can just imagine.

Jennifer, what is it about Oprah that causes these out of body experiences with people? That woman was whacked.

DELARIA: That`s something that I never understood. Even when you see these people at concerts for like Beyonce and once Michael Jackson, people are crying and passing out. I was just like, they`re human just like we are. I know I`ve been to the Oprah show. And I must say I haven`t met her, but I was in the audience. She definitely has this essence about her. But it`s not where you should be passing out.

LEVY: You watch the video of Oprah`s favorite things, those episodes.

BEHAR: People go wild.

LEVY: People go insane.

WILLIAMS: You`re getting a car.

LEVY: OK, so that`s a good reason, but just Oprah herself --

BEHAR: Well, it`s a little of get a life.

DELARIA: They go wild over everything. She can give them a bug light. Oh, a bug zapper!

BEHAR: They go nuts for her. She`s too fabulous for herself.

OK, next up, Bill Clinton and his saxophone have some competition. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin wowed the star-studded crowd at a fundraiser for kids in St. Petersburg, Russia, when he sang "Blueberry Hill" in English. Take a look. I love it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: What will we hear next? Ahmadinejad singing "Feelings, nothing more than feelings"?

DELARIA: Oh, yes, Kim Jong-il singing "My Ding-a-Ling." This is despot idol.

(LAUGHTER)

Mugabe singing "Johnny be Good."

BEHAR: But Putin is a tough guy, Joe, isn`t he? This softens his image a little bit. Isn`t he KBG in the old days? KGB.

DELARIA: You just said KBJ.

LEVY: KFC.

LEVY: He can get you all the chicken you need. He can.

(LAUGHTER)

No, he was a brutal enforcer in his day. He`s still ruling Russian society. Does this soften his image? I don`t know. It definitely he can`t swing. The man has no rhythm. The audience is going -- they don`t even seem to be there.

BEHAR: I know.

DELARIA: He`s getting a cyanide shot in two seconds. As soon as he leaves the building.

BEHAR: Who, Joe?

DELARIA: Putin`s got him right now. If he`s anywhere, you`re the best singer I`ve ever heard, Putin. You rock, man. You should get your own record label.

BEHAR: Isn`t it interesting that he picked an American song trying to make nice with us? He could have sung, you know, "The tractor is in its garage" in Russian. Isn`t that more their speed?

LEVY: I think he was trying to make nice with us, he would have left Fats Domino alone. You watch the whole thing --

BEHAR: That`s painful to watch.

LEVY: He`s barely awake.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: They`re terrified. Of course he got a standing ovation.

DELARIA: They thought they were going to get poisoned. The really ugly thing about it was all the white people in the room clapping on the one and the three. You watch the video, Goldie Hawn, and Kevin Costner, Sharon Stone, just amazing.

BEHAR: Now, the Hasselhoffs reality TV show was canceled after just two episodes. "Dancing with the Stars," now this? Good thing he`s still big in Dusseldorf is all I have to say. He`s big in Germany.

DELARIA: It can`t be canceled in Germany.

BEHAR: These people were just on my show, he and his two lovely daughters. And they were so hopeful. Now it`s all up in smoke.

DELARIA: Was he sober?

BEHAR: Yes, I think so. I mean, how do I know?

DELARIA: A breathalyzer test.

BEHAR: I don`t work at AA.

LEVY: Could you smell salvia on his breath? Did he giggle a lot?

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: No, but you just smelled Silvio (ph) on mine.

Oh!

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Do you think anyone cares what he`s doing? So I think that might be the issue.

BEHAR: You don`t think anyone cares about him. He was voted off, you know, "Dancing," and that is a popularity contest.

LEVY: Let`s take this for what it is. It`s a great moment in America. We have finally found the reality show people will not watch. We drew a line in the sand collectively as a society. Like 700,000 people watched episode one. Then we were down to 500,000 people, and they canceled it. We finally found one. We will watch like 50 shows about making cakes, but we will not watch David -- we just won`t do it. We need to celebrate.

BEHAR: They totally crossed the line with this one and they hit the wall.

LEVY: One Hasselhoff too far.

BEHAR: Thank you very much you guys. You can catch Jennifer Williams on "Basketball Wives," that`s a reality show. It`s still on the air. It`s Sunday at 10:00 p.m. on VH-1. And Lea Delaria`s newest jazz release, "Be a Santa," and she is not a lesbian.

(LAUGHTER)

It`s out now. Back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: You know, recent studies show that men who are not the breadwinners tend to cheat more often. Well some couples where the women make more money than her husband tend to split up more frequently.

And with me to discuss this issue is Sara Moulton, cookbook author and a TV chef, M. Gary Neuman, mental health counselor and author of "In Good Times and Bad," and Carolyn Kepcher, former executive of the Trump organization and currently president of the media company Carolyn and Company. Welcome to the show, you guys.

Carolyn, let me start with you because you were Donald Trump`s EVP, executive vice president, his right hand on "The Apprentice" a few years ago. And I guess you were making some money, you were the main breadwinner in your family.

KEPCHER: I was.

BEHAR: Tell me how that played out in your marriage?

KEPCHER: I was married for 16 years and "The Apprentice" came on later. When I met my husband, I was fairly successful and so I was the breadwinner then. And then moving onto "The Apprentice" things got a little crazier.

But we had established from the beginning that I would go on, because it was more time, it was more money, but he was going to be a sort of the primary caregiver for that period of time.

BEHAR: You have children.

KEPCHER: Yes, two.

BEHAR: Two kids. How old were they when you got to "The Apprentice" job?

KEPCHER: Very young -- one and three.

BEHAR: He would stay home with the kids?

KEPCHER: He was working.

BEHAR: What did he do?

KEPCHER: He was doing high end development in Westchester.

BEHAR: But then he became the house husband and took care of the kids, and that`s when the thing went on the rocks a little bit?

KEPCHER: I had help and he was more of a primary caregiver. I wasn`t able to be home as much. But we had established that. I`m no longer married now, but that`s really not a --

BEHAR: It wasn`t a factor?

KEPCHER: It really wasn`t, to tell you the truth. We had really had that discussion before we went on. We worked very well at it.

BEHAR: Right. OK. Now, Sara you had a big job on the Food Network.

SARA MOULTON, TV CHEF: I did.

BEHAR: The main breadwinner in your family. How did that affect your family?

MOULTON: It was just fine.

BEHAR: You so what is this discussion about?

MOULTON: Thanks very much. I don`t know.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: This discussion has just gone out the window. You didn`t have that problem. I don`t have a problem. There`s no problem. Everyone`s happy.

(LAUGHTER)

MOULTON: Joy, I think it`s normal. I had dinner with two cousins last night.

BEHAR: Two cousins. Tell me they`re having a problem.

(LAUGHTER)

MOULTON: No. Between the three of us, we had 30 years average marriage, I mean, for each couple and everybody was happy, although something in common with all three of the men. They`re all sort of artist types. And I think that helps.

BEHAR: Why? Because they don`t care about who makes the money? They just want to do their thing?

MOULTON: Exactly. It`s driven by passion. But I think everybody should be allowed to pursue what their passion is.

BEHAR: Gary, is this a problem or isn`t it?

M. GARY NEUMAN, MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR: This is a big problem. It is!

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Go ahead.

NEUMAN: Listen, since time immemorial, men have been the protectors and the earners. I think it`s great that in one generation we change diapers, we clean vomit, we cuddle, and that`s really good stuff. But our value personally for men is how much we make. And women when they look at this guy`s manliness, it is about the money that he brings in.

BEHAR: You really think so?

NEUMAN: I really think so. I help couples and that`s what happens.

BEHAR: But if the guy is sexually adequate, what`s the big deal?

(LAUGHTER)

NEUMAN: Wait till you talk to a house husband.

BEHAR: If a guy is secure in himself, what is the difference who is making the money?

NEUMAN: The only difference is the sense of personal value. And also the other difference is, unlike what you have said, most of the time these women take on this huge role of being in charge of the family. They come home, they expect that their husband will support them and take care of the kids in the home as they did when they supported their husband.

BEHAR: Support them emotionally.

NEUMAN: Yes, and the house. And then they come home and the table`s a mess and the kids are asleep again with jam in their hair. He`s still a guy. And then they begin very resentful, a lot of women are really doing everything. They`re having to make the money --

BEHAR: Did that happen to you, Carol?

KEPCHER: Yes, but I would say, years and years ago we were groomed that the woman would stay home and the husband take on the leading role. And then years ago the husband and the wives worked. You can still go home and there`s jam in the kid`s hair and the wife can still be the primary care giver. Let`s not discriminate about -- you had opened the segment about who cheats --

BEHAR: That`s studies that show that house husbands are cheating.

BEHAR: How many women are home because their husbands are working the powerful job?

BEHAR: The women who are home are sleeping with the pool boys and the gardeners and everything else. I`m not saying every woman. But it happens.

NEUMAN: Of course it should work. I don`t think people should be stuck into roles. I`m just saying that there are a lot of men who will feel a reduction of value. The cheating issue is significant because what happens is they feel like they`ve lost their value to their wives and they can`t get respect from them.

BEHAR: What`s a woman supposed to do if she gets offered a big job?

NEUMAN: I think what probably is the antidote, I think there are two things that should happen. There should be a lot of discussion. What happens in most couples is they don`t discuss these things. They just upset each other, bicker, and bark. If people sit down, what`s going to be my new roles and you`re new roles, that`s crucial.

And appreciation is huge. Both he to her that she`s now doing this and back to the husband.

BEHAR: But if she comes home and the kid`s got jam all over his pajamas and the place is a wreck, it is hard to say, darling, you did a wonderful job.

NEUMAN: Yes.

KEPCHER: But this whole economy has turned things. I was lucky enough that we made this decision years ago as to who would be the primary care giver. Now the economy has changed, men are out of work, women are taking on bigger roles, so they`re forced into that situation. They`re forced to kind of suck it up for the good of the family.

BEHAR: Let`s take a break and have another short segment where we talk about the guys who cheat on their wives because of it. I want to hear more about that. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. So Gary, what are you saying to me about women cheating when they`re in the workplace?

NEUMAN: Well, when they start making more money than their husbands, statistically they actually start cheating more as well as the husbands.

BEHAR: Is that because it presents itself at the office?

NEUMAN: Yes, because they a lot of times they will lose value with their husbands. And, of course, if they`re in big money situations, there`s a lot of other men who are powerful and also in big money situations. So that is alluring for some. So the statistic goes up.

KEPCHER: I don`t think these people had good marriages to begin with. It`s a partnership. And whatever works at whatever time in your life should be fine. I`m sorry, it seemed so old fashioned to me.

NEUMAN: There`s no doubt that obviously a lot of cheating situations occur. You look back on the relationship and you see the relationship was a problem. But still situations do bump us along on the bumpy road.

BEHAR: Are you married, Gary?

NEUMAN: I am -- 23 years, five children.

BEHAR: What does your wife do?

NEUMAN: My wife takes care of the children. She co-authored this book with me.

BEHAR: That`s how he likes it.

(LAUGHTER)

NEUMAN: She co-authored this book with me. She`s a writer. We home- schooled our kids.

BEHAR: Really?

NEUMAN: Why? What`s wrong with the public school system?

(LAUGHTER)

NEUMAN: So she`s a remarkable person and she has tremendous respect for me and vice versa. And I think --

BEHAR: Well, what if she went out and had a big job like Carol had and left you with the kids?

NEUMAN: I would love it.

BEHAR: You would. Would they have jam in the pajamas?

NEUMAN: More so than when she`s home, yes.

(LAUGHTER)

I am a man, I must say. No, that`s the old joke, you know.

BEHAR: House husbands who cheat, who are they cheating with? There`s a lot of women on the playgrounds, women who are sort of bored with their lives, let`s say, some of them who are looking around.

BEHAR: It`s a lonely job being the caretaker. It`s the hardest job on the planet is to be a mother and stay home.

BEHAR: What is the answer to that? Let`s go there for a second, because I think that that is a very difficult thing to do. Be alone. That`s why Hillary Clinton famously said it takes a village, because it`s very lonely to be with a child all day long, isn`t it?

NEUMAN: Well, it is. But a lot of times mothers do come together. There`s a lot of activity. Taking children to other places, there is this sense that we are raising our children.

I wish mothers and fathers would see that what they`re doing for their children really sets them up for the rest of their lives. There`s nothing more important. Years later, we`re in our 50s and 60s, our self-value is still brimming from what happened to us as children. It`s a wonderful position. But it`s 24/7.

BEHAR: Those first five years are crucial.

NEUMAN: They really are. It`s wonderful.

BEHAR: But the guys, they`re probably lonely out there because it`s mostly women who are tending to their children and nannies, a lot of nannies in New York City.

NEUMAN: Yes.

BEHAR: Do you have a nanny?

NEUMAN: We don`t, but when the kids were younger. My youngest are 15, believe it or not.

BEHAR: You had them.

NEUMAN: We always had help.

BEHAR: That helps a lot, doesn`t it?

KEPCHER: It sure does.

NEUMAN: I used to say to my wife sometimes, let me help you with the children. She would say, no, no, no, let me help you with the children.

BEHAR: Oh, she`s smart.

NEUMAN: This is our children. Let`s partner with this.

BEHAR: A man picks up a dish and applause breaks. People are clapping all over the world.

(LAUGHTER)

Thank you so much, everybody, for coming by. And thank you for watching. Goodnight, everybody.

END