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Joy Behar Page
Fake Rape Claim; "Don`t Ask, Don`t Tell" Soon Gone; Lots to Lovitz; Winona Vs. Mel
Aired December 16, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Matt Damon says even though he spanks a child in the movie "True Grit", in real life he doesn`t believe in spanking children and neither do I, although there are a lot of adults that need discipline and guidance. And they`re all perfectly well-behaved just like mommy wants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up, a high profile weather girl claims she was almost raped by a Hispanic man while out for a jog but now she`s been arrested after admitting to cops she made the whole thing up. What caused this troubled woman to fabricate this harrowing tale?
Then, Winona Ryder says a drunken Mel Gibson made homophobic and anti- Semitic remarks to her and a friend 15 years ago but everybody ignored her claims until now.
Plus, Miley Cyrus`s friends say the star isn`t bothered by the fallout from her smoking a bong.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: WABC TV and "Good Morning America" meteorologist Heidi Jones has been arrested in New York for falsely reporting an attempted rape, a story by the way the police say she later recanted. So why would a woman who seemingly had it all fabricate a story like this?
Here now to discuss further are psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall; Maureen O`Connor, staff writer for gawker.com; and Rikki Klieman, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.
Maureen, she made up this story about being attacked in Central Park, which, you know Central Park is pretty safe these days. Ever since your husband, Bill Bratton, was the police commissioner we`ve had a safe Central Park. So what did she tell the police?
MAUREEN O`CONNOR, STAFF WRITER, GAWKER.COM: In late November she went to the police and she said that two months prior somebody had attempted to rape her. She said a Hispanic man had come behind her and attacked her and that some passerby scared that person away. She said then a couple days later -- excuse me -- she said a couple of days before the day that she went to the police, the man had somehow found her and been threatening her. And then later, so the police investigated it and they kept finding discrepancies.
And so eventually they asked her and she confessed that she actually had made up the entire thing, the attempted rape as well as the stalking and threatening. And what she told them was she wanted sympathy due to some kind of personal problem she was having.
BEHAR: Kind of like a Munchausen situation.
O`CONNOR: Something like that.
BEHAR: But I mean, why is it always a Hispanic guy or a black guy? What is that about?
O`CONNOR: It`s extremely touchy I think because she is a public figure that people think of warmly. You see her every morning. She had -- she was a runner. She said she was running in Central Park.
BEHAR: Yes.
O`CONNOR: She had a Web site called runwithheidi.com where she blogged about fitness. So she was very much portraying herself as somebody you could get along with and know.
And when she had this really scary story and that it touches a lot of people, you know, people are worried about women when they are really raped --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Joy --
BEHAR: Before I get to you, Bethany, I mean I just want to hit on this for a second because in 1994 Susan Smith, that woman who killed her children, drove them into the water, remember, she claimed a black man stole her car and kidnapped her sons. Then in 1989 this guy Charles Stewart in Boston concocted some story that his wife had been attacked and his pregnant wife had been kidnapped by black guys. What is that?
Why use -- Rikki, what is that about?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: One of the things that happens of course is if a person wants to be believed the classic is the white woman, Caucasian woman who says that she was attacked or she witnessed an attack.
BEHAR: More sympathy for her?
KLIEMAN: By a minority. I don`t know if it`s more sympathy or it is just the most convenient thing to say where the police and others may believe you.
The danger in this case, Joy, from a legal perspective is this. If the police had gone along and continued to work with her, that the next thing that might have happened is they might have had a line up or they might have had a showup of photographs.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: And if then if she picked someone at that point we really have a tragedy and a felony.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s exactly right. That has been what happened I think very often.
Bethany, here is a big question for you. I mean, here is a woman who`s got a great job on television. She`s very pretty. She`s young enough, she has a boy. Why would someone do this mentally, psychologically? What is that?
MARSHALL: People who do this -- they`re usually, people who do this are usually diagnosed with something called factitious disorder. And what that is, is when someone stages a crime, fakes symptoms of an illness in order to gain sympathy or attention. Think of it as Munchausen`s light.
But two other things: they really want to assume the role of the patient like say pretending you have cancer and you can go to a hospital so you get to lie in the hospital bed and all the doctors give you attention and take care of you. Or you go to the police department and you get all of the attention of the detectives.
But secondarily, besides gaining sympathy and attention, she may have been mad, jealous, and enraged towards a lover or a boyfriend and trying to assume control over that person by saying, look, you can`t leave me. You can`t have sex with another woman. You cannot betray me because, look, a very bad thing has happened to me. Now you have to rush to my side and I`m going to control you by making you feel sorry for me.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. It`s two separate ideas. One is to just get attention and sympathy. The other one is to cause him to feel guilty.
(CROSSTALK)
KLIEMAN: Well, one of the things we often see, Joy, is the difficulty of women who maliciously accuse someone of raping them who was someone who perhaps they had gone to bed with who didn`t call them again. We`ve seen false accusations of people who want to get back at someone.
This isn`t a false accusation against a particular person. This is a woman who obviously as Bethany points out has some mental problems. There is no question about it. And so in a certain way she garners our sympathy.
One of the difficulties I see from a legal perspective is --
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: -- is those other women who are out there who may want to go to the police for a legitimate reason; does something like this deter them? On the other side, are police who now look at this saying to themselves when the next woman comes in and says she was jogging in Central Park, what are we going to do to assure ourselves she is telling the truth?
BEHAR: How much in the law does that really happen do you think where the police don`t believe you because of a story like this from another woman?
KLIEMAN: I think depending on the enlightenment of the police department it can happen with some frequency. I think if you have a police department that`s been well-trained, certainly the NYPD is one of the best trained departments in the country, also the LAPD. They`ve been sensitized and they know how to deal with victims.
BEHAR: Go ahead, Bethany.
MARSHALL: There is a very good way to make a diagnosis and to tell if somebody is faking it or making it up and that is lack of objective findings. For instance, if someone says they have cancer and they go to the hospital but they refuse to have their blood drawn, well, then they`re making it up.
If someone says, oh, gee. It was a Hispanic. I didn`t see really what he looked like. Oh, no. I couldn`t really identify him. That is lack of objective findings and my understanding is that is how she got caught. She did not want to give up the details of what was happening.
BEHAR: Is that what happened? Let the reporter speak.
O`CONNOR: Well, reports have said that the police have said that they knew pretty soon thereafter that things were too vague. That she said two people had rescued her but she was very vague and wouldn`t -- she wasn`t helping them find those people necessarily. So right away that sort of raised warning flags.
So when they continued to sort of search for these people, for the witnesses or for anything like that and it started to sort of just not coming together that she insisted on being vague that she wasn`t helping out --
BEHAR: So she basically was forced to recant because she couldn`t pull it off.
O`CONNOR: She didn`t have all the details lined up basically.
BEHAR: It`s good police work, too.
KLIEMAN: Whoever these police officers are, they did an intervention. They stopped someone from being charged.
BEHAR: So what is she facing legally?
KLIEMAN: Legally, she is facing up to a year in jail and a fine. The reality in this kind of case, celebrity or not a celebrity, it`s what they call a DAT. She gets really a desk appearance ticket. It`s like getting a traffic ticket. She is supposed to come to court on January 5th.
This case is going to be resolved. It`s going to be from where I sit, if I`m her lawyer and I think Paul Kellen is the best lawyer she could have gotten, competent, compassionate, full of integrity. He`s going to go to the district attorney`s office and they`re going to work out something probationary. She gets treatment. She needs treatment.
I`ll say this, too, Joy. I know Paul well enough to know he is not going to leave her without sources of support right now. She is very vulnerable right now.
BEHAR: Bethany, what kind of treatment do you recommend here?
MARSHALL: Well, look. If she made up being raped in order to get attention, let`s hope she doesn`t make up a suicide attempt to get attention. So she needs to be very carefully monitored because this is a serious disorder and the reason she got this far in life is that people who have factitious disorder but are highly trained, highly educated, highly intelligent, they can cover up for their underlying psychopathology. So she is going to have to have a really good clinician.
And let`s not forget, what did she make up? She made up that she was raped and stalked. So she`s trying to say, I`m desirable. I`m sexually desirable. Somebody wanted me. And so that`s going to be a key to the nature of the disorder is trying to feel desire by other people.
BEHAR: Yes. In your experience is this like a narcissistic disorder also, very difficult to treat or to cure? Is this a hard one?
MARSHALL: I would say -- I would say there`s narcissistic components but she probably would fit the criteria for border lines because with borderlines there`s clinging to the love object --
BEHAR: Borderline.
MARSHALL: And then rage at perceived rejection and this is a rageful, controlling thing to have done.
BEHAR: Thank you very much. Interesting stuff I think.
We`ll look forward to seeing what goes on with this case. Thanks, everybody.
We`ll be back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Jon Lovitz drops by to discuss his new film about disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff.
And Winona Ryder goes public with a first-hand account of Mel Gibson being anti-Semitic and homophobic long before his rants made headlines.
Now, back to Joy.
BEHAR: "Don`t ask, don`t tell" the controversial law banning gays from openly serving in the military could soon be a thing of the past -- I hope. The House voted yesterday to repeal it and now it is in the Senate`s hands. Some Republicans there have changed their minds to support the repeal but will that be enough?
Here now to discuss this and more are political commentator Ron Reagan and Dana Loesch, editor of bigjournalism.com and radio host on KFT 97.1 FM.
You know, I`m sorry I say Reagan. I get confused.
RON REAGAN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is a difficult name.
BEHAR: There was a Don Regan. There is a Ronald Reagan. There`s a Ron Reagan.
REAGAN: We used to be Reagans. We used to actually -- back in Ireland we were the O`Reagans.
BEHAR: See, I just went back to Ireland for a second there.
REAGAN: Yes.
BEHAR: So, Ron, the Senate is going to vote to repeal DADT?
REAGAN: We hope so. Now, Harry Reid says he is going to allow this to come up for a vote. We really have to watch to see whether he schedules a vote and whether that vote is scheduled before Christmas.
If he waits until after Christmas, which the Republicans would like him to do, it`s possible that some Democrats could not come home from Christmas vacation or come back to Washington from Christmas vacation and you`d lose votes. We`re at 60 right now, apparently, with four Republicans now onboard or three Republicans and Blanche Lincoln now back in the senate.
BEHAR: That would be Senators Snowe, Brown, and Murkowski?
REAGAN: Right, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, if Reid can schedule a vote now the votes seem to be there; 60 votes for the repeal.
BEHAR: Yes.
REAGAN: But it`s all about the timing.
BEHAR: Ok. Dana, now, why are most Republicans not willing to appeal it, despite the polls showing almost 8 in 10 Americans support gays openly serving in the military? Why can`t they just do it?
DANA LOESCH, BIG JOURNALISM.COM: I think right now, Joy, it`s not so much as substance but looking at this from a procedural point of view.
And that you have to remember Republicans back before the lame duck session started they said, look. These are some of the things that we need to have done. The tax extension -- the tax rate extension must be passed before we start considering other pieces of legislation. So if they flinch at all it`s going to look very bad in public relations terms for the GOP.
I think that they`re just looking at it as to what is immediately going to impact people after the first of the year.
REAGAN: They`re playing all sorts of games, Joy. Jim DeMint wants the entire 1900-page omnibus spending bill read aloud.
LOESCH: Why not? They haven`t read it. They haven`t read it.
REAGAN: I think it`s probably they don`t need to read it.
(CROSSTALK)
LOESCH: Ron, are you telling me that they don`t need to read legislation before they pass it?
(CROSSTALK)
REAGAN: Do you think that senators actually read 1900-page bills, Dana? You really think that they do?
LOESCH: Well, they ought to.
(CROSSTALK)
REAGAN: Ordinarily? Do you really think that Jim DeMint wants to educate the senate by having this bill read or do you think he is trying to push things back into the next term?
LOESCH: No, no, no. So you support passing a trillion dollar legislation without reading it?
BEHAR: Cut.
REAGAN: Yes. In this case.
BEHAR: Ok. What about Senator McCain? Who is he pandering to, Dana?
LOESCH: McCain, I don`t -- I don`t really try to pretend even to want to get into John McCain`s mind. He is not one of my favorite people on earth.
BEHAR: Why not?
LOESCH: Well, I haven`t been very impressed with his big RINO record. I think that a lot of the stuff that he does is pretty much just advantageous. He is not one of my favorite Republicans.
BEHAR: Is he not conservative enough for you?
LOESCH: No, he`s never been conservative enough for me.
BEHAR: Well, he is on this topic. Even though, you know, Defense Secretary Gates, Admiral Mullen support repealing, he still doesn`t want to appeal it. He should know better.
LOESCH: Well, then again, too, Joy, I look at it like this. Personally, "don`t ask, don`t tell", when I look at what this is, what the military should be, when you go into the military when you volunteer to be a part of the military, individuality ceases to have any significance once you join the military.
It does -- nobody cares or should care what your sexual orientation is. They shouldn`t care what music you like, what your favorite food is, nobody gives a crap. People need to get over self-importance.
REAGAN: But apparently they do.
BEHAR: To me it`s bad policy. I mean I was reading that dozens of Arabic translators were kicked out of the military because they were gay. That`s really stupid. That is just stupid and dangerous.
REAGAN: It is. What is amazing is to recognize the low opinion the people who support "don`t ask don`t tell" appear to have of our fighting men and women. You would really think that the people in the Marines, if you listen to General Amos, are all a bunch of juvenile bigots, that they can`t handle the stress of having a gay person or a gay man or lesbian anywhere near them.
LOESCH: Well, that`s not -- that`s not the perspective that I hear.
REAGAN: Well, it`s the perspective I hear.
LOESCH: What I hear from people and just on my show today I had a ton of veterans who called in from all branches of the service and they were saying, look. We don`t care. We served with gay people. Gays have served before "don`t ask don`t tell" which I don`t know why Democrats put it into effect in the first place.
REAGAN: I don`t either.
LOESCH: But they`re freaking out trying to get it out of the way.
REAGAN: Yes, I don`t know.
BEHAR: That was a bad idea.
LOESCH: Gays will serve after "don`t ask don`t tell".
The point that I heard from every single veteran who called into my show today was, look, the most important thing is, can you serve? Can you serve? Can you serve well?
REAGAN: Exactly.
LOESCH: We don`t care what you are. Quit putting the focus on individuality. It`s all about breaking a person down, rebuilding them up to be a part of a cohesive unit.
REAGAN: That`s what I`m saying Dana.
BEHAR: But it`s they`re out -- if people find out you`re gay, you lose your job. It`s a job, too, you know.
LOESCH: It is a job, too. But also, infidelity is illegal. You can get court-martialed if you cheat on your wife in the military. There are a lot of things in the military.
BEHAR: This is different. This is about who you are. It is very difficult I think to be in the closet all day and all night constantly. It is very unfair.
REAGAN: Well, it also forces people to lie, which would seem to be against, you know, military ethics.
BEHAR: One would think.
REAGAN: Yes. One would think. But again, Dana was making my point. I don`t think our military personnel, our fighting men and women if you will are all, really (INAUDIBLE), as Sarah Palin might say, about serving alongside gay people. They know they already do. It is just some of the people that are fighting this repeal who seem to think that they`re such juvenile bigots that they can`t handle it.
BEHAR: Let me ask you something, Ron. Yes, Ron.
REAGAN: Yes.
BEHAR: President Obama released this statement. "We must ensure that Americans who are willing to risk their lives for their country are treated fairly and equally by their country."
If this gets repealed do you give any credit to the President or do you blame him for taking so long?
REAGAN: Well, I don`t think he got out in front of this parade if you will. He may have made a political calculation in that, though, that if he did get out in front too much on this that the Republicans would get even more obstructionist about it, would dig in their heels even more about "don`t ask, don`t tell" because they would see it as a signature issue for him and of course they want to stop anything that he`s going to do.
So he may have made that political judgment. I`m not sure. I don`t know what --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The Tea Party seems to be all about the will of the people. Well, this is the will of the people. It`s time to move on from this. Don`t you think, Dana?
I`ve got to go. Thank you guys very much.
REAGAN: You bet.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Well, we loved him on "Saturday Night Live and in movies like "City Slickers 2" and "The Wedding Singer" but now Jon Lovitz is taking on a dramatic role in the new movie "Casino Jack" opening tomorrow. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to do important stuff that matters for people.
JON LOVITZ, ACTOR: I don`t know, Jack. I`m starting to see Charlie Manson as my roommate for the next ten years. This isn`t a bunch of native people. You`re dealing with sharks here. I`m going to say no.
But thanks for the $65 steak. It`s delicious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So welcome to my show, Jon Lovitz. You`re dramatic actor now, Jon, huh?
LOVITZ: Yes. I`m very serious now, Joy.
BEHAR: Really? Do you like being a dramatic actor?
LOVITZ: Yes, yes, very much.
BEHAR: Don`t you miss the laughs?
LOVITZ: Yes. It`s hard.
No, you know, the truth is the movie is a drama but there is a lot of humor in the movie. George Hickenlooper directed it and made it and horribly he passed away out of the blue about a month ago, you know. But he was just a great director, he made a great movie --
BEHAR: Did he see the movie before he died?
LOVITZ: Yes, he did.
BEHAR: Did he like it?
LOVITZ: Yes. He loved it. But I love it. I`m really proud to be in a really great movie. Kevin Spacey stars as Jack Abramoff; he`s great. Barry Pepper is in it, Rachelle Lefevre, Kelly Preston -- she`s great in it. Great cast.
BEHAR: Well, you`ve know -- you`ve known Spacey for quite a while, right?
LOVITZ: Yes. Well, I used to go to the restaurant Columbus here in New York and everybody would hang out and I met him there about 25 years ago. I remember seeing him on "Wise Guys" and thought he was a great actor then.
BEHAR: He is a great actor and he`s very funny.
Dennis Miller once said that you should do stand up -- years ago, I guess -- but you didn`t do it until much later. Were you scared to do it? Is that why --
LOVITZ: Yes. Dad used to bring me to "Catch a Rising Star" and my heart would just -- I could feel my chest, you could feel it pounding.
BEHAR: I know the feeling.
LOVITZ: Finally, I -- I needed to do it for -- to keep -- I said to my agent you can get me more work? I`m going to run out of money in five years. They said why don`t you sell your house? I said I have a better idea. Why don`t I fire you and I become a stand up?
BEHAR: I don`t understand -- I`ve never heard a suggestion like that.
LOVITZ: Yes, well, neither had I.
BEHAR: How much was the house worth?
LOVITZ: Mine?
BEHAR: Yes.
LOVITZ: Oh, a lot.
BEHAR: How much?
LOVITZ: I`m successful.
BEHAR: Five million? How much was it worth? I`m trying to figure -- I`m trying to amortize.
LOVITZ: I don`t know. 200 million, 300 million I don`t know. It`s close to a couple of billion I guess. But I love it. Who wants to sell that? So I learned how to do stand up and I have my own comedy club at Universal City lot in Los Angeles comedy club. I did that.
Oh, and if you have psoriasis -- I`m on a Web site areyouseriousaboutpsoriasis.com.
BEHAR: Why, do you have it?
LOVITZ: Yes, horribly and I found a new medicine that worked so I made a funny PSA with Jerry Zucker directing it and the song. I don`t like to come on and say it but this thing had helped me so much so I figured I could help people. You know.
BEHAR: Are you married Jon? Not that this is a come on. I`m just saying --
LOVITZ: Not that it isn`t.
BEHAR: Are you married?
LOVITZ: No.
BEHAR: Are you in a serious relationship with anyone?
LOVITZ: Besides my cats?
BEHAR: Besides your cats.
LOVITZ: I don`t know. It`s my private life.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. You don`t talk about your private life?
LOVITZ: No. That`s why it`s called private. Hello.
BEHAR: Plenty of people call it that and then they talk about in anyway.
LOVITZ: Yes, well, does that make any sense to you?
BEHAR: No, I`m just thinking. You know, you live in this big house, I was wondering if you shared this big house with anybody besides your cat. No?
LOVITZ: What, are you trying to move in?
BEHAR: No, not me. I`m putting it out there for women in case they need a guy. I`m putting it out there anyway.
LOVITZ: Well, that`s not the only thing you`re putting out.
BEHAR: You can see Jon Lovitz in "Casino Jack"; he`s a dramatic actor now -- in theaters tomorrow.
We`ll be right back.
LOVITZ: I made a breast joke. Did you get it?
BEHAR: I got it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Next week on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, the legendary Bette Midler plus Sigourney Weaver and Denis Leary. Now back to Joy.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: In a new interview with "GQ," Winona Ryder says she`s known all along that Mel Gibson was an anti-Semitic homophobe, jerk. Thanks to an awkward run-in with him 15 years ago at a Hollywood party. She says this about Mel, quote, "he was really drunk. I was with my friend who`s gay. He made a really horrible gay joke and somehow it came up that I was Jewish. He said something about oven dodgers, but I didn`t even get it. I`d never heard that before. It was just this weird, weird moment."
You know, Mel is like the titanic. He couldn`t sink any lower in my opinion. And I have -- oh, I have to introduce you guys. I forgot. With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Are comedian, Dave Attell, comedian, Kate Flannery, and Rob Shuter, AOL`s PopEater columnist. You know, I`ve never heard this term "oven dodger." Where did he find this, in Mein Kampf?
DAVE ATTELL, COMEDIAN: First of all, Joy, I can`t stay long. As you can tell, I have a "Deadliest Catch" episode to shoot.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK.
ATTELL: Finger fisherman, anti-Semitism, (INAUDIBLE) if you know what I`m talking? Oven dodger --
BEHAR: Oven dodger -- I can`t -- it`s really the worst thing you can say to somebody.
ATTELL: I mean, bagel eater, that`s kind of like, you got to know the person, but oven dodger, that`s the closer.
BEHAR: Bagel eater is not offensive as over dodger -- is talking about a tragedy.
ATTELL: You`re half upset. I`m a full blown Jew, all right? You`re like half Jewish, right?
BEHAR: No, I`m Italian.
ATTELL: Oh, so what do you care?
BEHAR: I do care. I care.
ATTELL: Oh, yes?
BEHAR: Yes. You don`t have to be Jewish to eat leaveies. Same thing.
ATTELL: All right. I mean, you don`t need a wax (ph) --
BEHAR: OK. Winona said that Mel was drunk.
KATE FLANNERY, COMEDIAN: Right.
BEHAR: Aren`t you sick of this in vitro veritass, you know, excuse?
FLANNERY: That`s a fancy word for saying yes. Winona Ryder should not be bringing up any dirt on anybody. I mean, she was arrested for shoplifting.
BEHAR: Yes.
FLANNERY: And I`m telling you when I was a waitress in Beverly Hills, she actually skipped on a check for -- it was just for a few sodas.
(LAUGHTER)
FLANNERY: I mean, supposedly like, this was during her, she was like doing pain killers or something --
(CROSSTALK)
FLANNERY: I`m not suggesting that Mel Gibson --
BEHAR: Are you saying she`s a liar or a shoplifter?
FLANNERY: No, no. Well, I just think why are you bringing attention to someone else when you should be lucky that you`re still working and back on the map. You know what I`m saying?
ATTELL: Kate hates Jews.
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: She`s defending him.
FLANNERY: I`m not.
BEHAR: She`s not defending the girl.
FLANNERY: You know, he`s been great for the catholic faith (ph), right?
BEHAR: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
FLANNERY: So proud to be catholic with Mel Gibson.
BEHAR: She`s just saying that, you know, people who live in glass houses should dress in the cellar.
FLANNERY: Exactly.
BEHAR: But I`m saying to you shoplifting is not the equivalent of this type of slander.
ROB SHUTER, COLUMNIST, AOL`S POPEATER: Right.
FLANNERY: I understand.
SHUTER: And she has been saying this before. No one has been listening. She has been saying this. She really has. She said something about Mel Gibson before to her friends, and nobody has really paid that much attention. Now, because of what happened, this has become the headline of that "GQ" story. But this isn`t really new news. She`s been saying for a long time that Mel is an anti-Semite.
ATTELL: You`re out of line, Rob.
BEHAR: Do you think it has something to do with the fact that "Black Swan," her movie is coming out?
FLANNERY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Well, I think, that`s coming out now.
SHUTER: But that`s how she got the interview for "GQ." "GQ" wouldn`t be sitting down with her if she wasn`t promoting this movie. So whenever they promote this movies, they sit down with these girls for hours.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: And I think she probably did a four-hour interview, and they picked the most controversial stuff out of that interview and this certainly is that.
BEHAR: Well, you know, the Simon, Simon, I guess, Wiesenthal Center?
ATTELL: Yes. You really are Italian. Simon?
BEHAR: Simon Wiesenthal Center. I used to date him, OK? So, shut up.
BEHAR: Got it.
(LAUGHTER)\
(CROSSTALK)
ATTELL: A scapegoat, maybe a Jewish person?
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: I`m the only Jew on this panel.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The Wiesenthal Center released its 2010 top anti-Semitic slurs, and Mel did not make the cut.
SHUTER: He didn`t?
BEHAR: Helen Thomas is on this list.
FLANNERY: Wow.
BEHAR: Rick Sanchez and Oliver Stone are all on that list.
ATTELL: Wow.
FLANNERY: Wow.
BEHAR: Isn`t that something? Shouldn`t he be on the list?
SHUTER: He should be the entire list.
BEHAR: He could be the entire list.
ATTELL: Hey, can you get off his back, please, for a second?
BEHAR: All right. Yes.
ATTELL: First of all, he`s a great actor. He`s a star. And I give him five Sieg Heils, all right?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s good. Remember that -- OK, pay attention now. Remember that poignant video TMZ got of Miley Cyrus reportedly smoking Salvia from a bong? Well, her camp still hasn`t released an official statement about it, and sources say it`s because the teen star doesn`t think it`s a big deal. In fact, she`s looking forward to smoking some mistletoe over the holidays.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: All right. So, Miley is taking it that she`s just young and having fun like a normal teen. What do you think of that?
FLANNERY: I think she`s too young to have seen Hugh Grant apologize on the tonight show for having a hooker. I mean, I think, she just doesn`t get it. She`s been in this bubble. And the truth is that, anything she`s ever done that`s offended her very young demographic like singing with a stripper pole, they`re too little to stay up to see it. So, they don`t even know. So, I don`t think she understands the ramifications. And that she has to take responsibility.
SHUTER: I think she`s a genius. I think she just dismissed this. She`s like I don`t care. Move on. (INAUDIBLE) of it already.
BEHAR: You don`t think -- he`s a P.R. guy. You don`t think that she should do damage control?
SHUTER: No. I think she didn`t make the cover of "Single" magazine. This hasn`t had that many readers. Everyone`s already has moved on.
BEHAR: So, how has it helped her?
SHUTER: It hasn`t helped her, but it has halter (ph) like the outrage that people are having isn`t the (INAUDIBLE) that I think we thought it was there. (ph).
BEHAR: See, the thing is, Dave, she`s a Disney star. See?
ATTELL: That`s the thing, Joy. She`s a star. She`s super hot. i give her five bong hits.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Do you think she wanted to get caught?
ATTELL: Hey, listen. She`s allowed to do whatever she wants to do. She smokes herb the way it should be done in a tour bus as you`re on the way to a sold out concert, not in somebody`s basement when you`re 40 years old going, what happened? I can`t believe it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. All right.
ATTELL: Larry.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Here`s another story.
ATTELL: Sorry.
BEHAR: Matt Damon starred the new movie "True Grit" and had to spank a young co-star with (INAUDIBLE) pivotal scene, but in real life, Damon would never lay a hand on his four daughters saying I definitely don`t spank them. Notice he never mentioned whether he spanked Ben Affleck. OK. All right.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Even if you spank them in the movies, I think it should be taken out of the movie. I hate it so much when they hit children that I don`t even think you should put it in the movies.
FLANNERY: Right. Because in the movie where they hurt animals, they always have no animals, you know, were actually hurt.
BEHAR: Right.
FLANNERY: But you know, but they actually hit this kid. Supposedly, she had padding which I think is equally as damaging for a young actress to have her rear end seem bigger than it really is. I mean, that`s kind of damaging.
(LAUGHTER)
FLANNERY: I mean, maybe Matt Damon has a thing where he only gets paid to spank, right?
BEHAR: That`s true. Have you ever been spanked?
ATTELL: Have I? Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Not recently.
ATTELL: Oh.
BEHAR: Like when you were a kid.
ATTELL: What`s wrong with -- next? So, what`s the biggy? He did it in a movie. He was acting, right?
BEHAR: I know.
ATTELL: OK.
BEHAR: But it sort of sends out the message a lot of people think it`s OK to spank children, do you?
ATTELL: Have you been through airport security lately? Anything goes, Joy.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What do you think?
SHUTER: I think the spanking children is not a good thing, and I`m glad he issued the statement. It`s a movie. It`s not that big a deal.
BEHAR: So, let`s move on from that.
SHUTER: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Next story. In the wake of the announcement that Ryan Reynolds and Scarlett Johansson are getting a divorce.
ATTELL: What?
BEHAR: Yes, I know. Tragic.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: They lasted two years, OK? Rumors of Reynolds` infidelity are starting to surface. I have nothing to do with it. I never even met the man, OK? It`s not about that. Scarlett Johansson is one of the most gorgeous women. She`s a beautiful girl.
ATTELL: Yes.
BEHAR: Very, you know, beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: Both hands up.
BEHAR: Why is it that, you know, these beautiful women all get cheated on? I mean, you know, like Elizabeth Hurley. You mentioned Hugh Grant before. Sandra Bullock. Elin Nordegren whatever her name is, Tiger Woods` wife. All these women. The prettier you are, the more the guy cheats. What is it with you, guys?
ATTELL: Because guys crave skunks. Don`t you get it, Joy?
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: You are the power list of titans there.
BEHAR: No wonder I never got a date.
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: Is there anybody hotter than that chick? No.
BEHAR: True.
ATTELL: Except for Winona Ryder from the earlier story.
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: But she`s super hot and so is he. But I think you can even have sex and just like look in the mirror and finish. Come on. That`s pretty good.
BEHAR: How about the idea that good looking women don`t try so hard in bed?
ATTELL: Yes.
BEHAR: What do you think of that?
FLANNERY: I still have my boyfriend. I`m just saying.
(LAUGHTER)
SHUTER: At the moment there are just rumors. No lady has come forward. There`s nobody really, really accusing this. I think it`s just a gossip rumor. I don`t really think I believe this at the moment because nobody has said that they`ve slept with Ryan and until that happens --
BEHAR: Well, it`s a rumor, but you know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: We can still talk about it. As long as we say it`s just a rumor. We`re not breaking anybody`s marriage up. They`re already getting divorced.
ATTELL: I`m taking my emotional glasses off right now.
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: First of all, I don`t think either one of them are going to be alone more than, like how long, like a blink of an eye or something?
BEHAR: Why? How long will the next one last?
ATTELL: Who cares? I mean, first of all, I think what she should do is marry the prince who`s not getting married. What`s his name? Harry.
SHUTER: He`s very handsome.
ATTELL: Put in some like hot gene pool into their thing.
(LAUGHTER)
ATTELL: No offense.
FLANNERY: Into the royal family.
ATTELL: Yes, like just hot it up a little bit
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Are you talking about --
ATTELL: They can give us a little class, we give them a little hot. You know what I`m saying?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You realize you`re talking about the kid who was in a Nazi uniform.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thank you, everybody. If you`re in New York, pay attention, catch Dave Attell at Caroline`s December 26th through the 30th and Kate Flannery is performing Sunday night at Joe`s Pub at the Public. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She is the brains behind such films as "When Harry Met Sally," "You`ve Got Mail" and "Julie And Julia." Her new book of essays is "I Remember Nothing." I`m happy to welcome to my show, my dear friend, my good pal, Nora Ephron. Welcome to the show, Nora.
NORA EPHRON, AUTHOR: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: You know, you say that "I Rember Nothing" could also be the title of a George Bush`s memoir.
EPHRON: Yes. I read at George`s memoir, and it came out the same day as I did.
BEHAR: Is that so?
EPHRON: I was lucky on that one that he didn`t use my title, but he should have.
BEHAR: Because he remembered nothing that he did.
EPHRON: He remembered nothing that I remembered about him.
BEHAR: I know. According to him, he made very few mistakes, and he was just a great president.
EPHRON: And people told him things and he believed it.
BEHAR: Exactly. But the way he talks, it doesn`t sound like Cheney was the brains behind that. He sort of eschews that idea.
EPHRON: Well, but in a way, that makes you think he`s protesting too much. Don`t you think?
BEHAR: Oh, I don`t trust him for a second.
EPHRON: I mean, an awful lot of I was in charge. I was the decider. He`s so committed to that word as if deciding is people say to you, do you want your coffee black or your coffee with milk and you say with milk and that`s a decision. You know, it`s not, well what are the -- what do we have to know about this? What about this, what about this, about actually doing the work in order to make a decision. There is none of that in it.
BEHAR: No. It`s almost like a toddler.
EPHRON: Yes, but I did, it`s true. But, you know, the thing I was interested and the reason I bought the book, well I didn`t buy the book --
BEHAR: Someone gave it to you.
EPHRON: No, I put it on my kindle which is not quite the same as buying the book, but I did want to know about that thing about the fetus.
BEHAR: Oh, that the mother brought, showed him the fetus.
EPHRON: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes, that was odd.
EPHRON: That was really odd when I read about it, but I have to tell you something, it`s not quite what you think.
BEHAR: What is it? Tell me.
EPHRON: Well, apparently, she had a miscarriage, and she asked him to take her to the hospital, and she brought what she had miscarried to the hospital. It wasn`t what I thought which is that they had a little, stored like a memento or something.
BEHAR: So, it wasn`t a teachable moment. It`s just the fetus happened to be there.
EPHRON: Yes. In the car.
BEHAR: I see. Well, whatever
EPHRON: Yes. Because I thought that was really up there with the weird thing until I read about it.
BEHAR: I love Barbara Bush now because she said that Sarah Palin should stay in Alaska. I love her now.
EPHRON: I love that, but don`t let it kid you. She spent eight years pretending she wasn`t in favor of reproductive choice. That`s --
BEHAR: Well, and now?
EPHRON: Well, she`s still pretending
BEHAR: She`s still pretending.
EPHRON: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s like, well whatever. I want to talk about you.
EPHRON: OK.
BEHAR: So, you say in the book that the Democrats are deeply disappointing.
EPHRON: Well, yes. That`s one of the things in a list of things that people are always totally shocked to rediscover, you know, along with -- with beautiful women sometimes marry really unattractive, old rich men.
BEHAR: I know.
EPHRON: And he goes what? What happened?
BEHAR: It`s shocking.
EPHRON: How did that happen? What did she see in him? Hello. You know, we know the answer to that. And the Democrats are deeply disappointing, and we discover this every two years --
BEHAR: Every cycle.
EPHRON: Every four years.
BEHAR: Yes, right.
EPHRON: It`s just -- and we go, how could we have ever thought it would be any different?
BEHAR: I know. I know. But we`ll see what happens now because we`re furious with everybody right now.
EPHRON: I know.
BEHAR: With this tax thing (ph). Now, you have this interesting thing in the "Huffington Post" right now, too, which is about divorce, which you got a little flack for.
EPHRON: Oh, yes, but, you know.
BEHAR: From Alec Baldwin.
EPHRON: I did.
BEHAR: But I have to read it because Alec wrote, if they gave prizes for bashing your ex, you would have won the Pulitzer, Nobel, and screen writing Oscar. And then, you wrote, I`m afraid that Alec, whom I love, which I love that little detail there, has confused me with Kim Basinger which is the first time anyone has ever done that. You know, it`s like he is a great actor, but don`t mess with the wit is the answer to that.
EPHRON: Thank you. Thank you so much for answering that.
BEHAR: You`re welcome.
EPHRON: Yes. But I had written a piece in the book about divorce because I think if you get divorced, it defines you. It takes up way too much space in your brain. It`s ongoing. And after I wrote it, I said to Arianna Huffington, we should do a section on "Huffington Post" about divorce because look at all the amount of time people spend getting married. That just takes a year. Getting divorced --
BEHAR: Right.
EPHRON: Is years, 20 years. It`s at least until your children are grown up that you are constantly renegotiating. You`re constantly dealing with --
BEHAR: With what you did, what happened?
EPHRON: Well, and visitation and the nightmare of the divorce Bar Mitzvah should you have to have one, and the divorce wedding with all the newly remarried people and all of their friends. There are a lot of things that come up in divorce.
BEHAR: Well, I think that you`re right, that it does define you. I mean, I`ve been talking about it, and I`m divorced 28 years.
EPHRON: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: And you are too, I think.
EPHRON: Oh, more.
BEHAR: More than that.
EPHRON: Yes.
BEHAR: First of all, we`re performers and writers, so we have stuff to write about.
EPHRON: But it`s also interestingly one of the, you know, we don`t lead wildly dramatic lives thankfully.
BEHAR: Oh, speak for yourself.
EPHRON: Yes, right. But, you know --
BEHAR: I was in my bath robe all weekend, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
EPHRON: This is the drama. This is the thing that the unexpected thing that happened. Nobody really plans on it.
BEHAR: No.
EPHRON: And then you really have no idea what a commitment it is. It`s a much bigger commitment to being married, which you can get out of. You can`t get out of being divorced.
BEHAR: Like herpes. It`s forever.
(LAUGHTER)
EPHRON: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. We have to take a break. We`ll have more with Nora Ephron in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Nora Ephron. You know, you write in your book that your mother was an alcoholic.
EPHRON: Yes.
BEHAR: That was an interesting part of your life that I didn`t really know about, and then she died at 57.
EPHRON: Isn`t that amazing?
BEHAR: Yes. And you know, I read somewhere that kids of alcoholics are very competitive. Do you think of yourself as competitive?
EPHRON: I don`t think I became a child of alcoholic --
BEHAR: No?
EPHRON: Until I was, you know, my mother really didn`t become an alcoholic until I was 15.
BEHAR: Oh. She waited?
EPHRON: She waited. And by the way, I think a lot of people have this, that they have some years with their alcoholic parent where it hasn`t manifested itself, where it isn`t the issue.
BEHAR: I see.
EPHRON: And then it is. And that`s what happened with us. And I was the eldest as my mother always taught me to say.
BEHAR: Not the oldest.
EPHRON: Right. And so, it was worse for all of my sisters.
BEHAR: Yes. But you were in high school. That could be kind of weird, like open school day.
EPHRON: Well, she never went to that, anyway.
BEHAR: Oh, she didn`t.
EPHRON: No.
BEHAR: No. But you were going to say what? I`m sorry.
EPHRON: No. I just think that the younger you are, the worse it is. And the more you become one of those kids that`s always negotiating, but I think the main thing was that nobody talked about this. It`s interesting to me that I`ve gotten a bunch of letters from people I was in high school with and college who said, we never talked about this. We were all so ashamed. It was almost the dark ages in terms of AA.
BEHAR: Oh. And a lot of other things in those days.
EPHRON: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: I mean, I always say Oprah and Phil Donahue opened the flood gates to all of these topics.
EPHRON: That`s right.
BEHAR: We never really discussed them.
EPHRON: That`s right. And you never knew anybody else was dealing with them.
BEHAR: But your father was not an alcoholic.
EPHRON: Oh, yes he was.
BEHAR: Oh, he was, too.
EPHRON: Yes, but he was just a different kind.
BEHAR: But your parents were writers, weren`t they?
EPHRON: Yes,
BEHAR: And so, don`t all writers drink?
EPHRON: Well, all writers did drink. That`s true. There was a certain period of that, but that`s different from being a drunk.
BEHAR: I see. They over did it.
EPHRON: And being, you know, nightmares.
BEHAR: I also found out -- somebody wants to know on Twitter, was that famous fake orgasm scene in "When Harry Met Sally" based on your own experiences?
EPHRON: Well, actually, I guess, well, possibly. Possibly yes. Well, it was my idea to have a thing in it because Rob Reiner, at one point, said to me, you know, we`ve told you all this stuff about secrets about men. You tell us something that is a secret about women that we don`t know. It was sort of I dare you.
BEHAR: And what did you say?
EPHRON: And I said, women fake orgasms, and Rob said, not with me.
BEHAR: Oh, sure.
EPHRON: And he walked out into the office, made all the women come in, asked them all.
BEHAR: How they did it?
EPHRON: If they did it.
BEHAR: And they said?
EPHRON: And they all said they did.
BEHAR: Of course.
EPHRON: And there it is.
BEHAR: OK.
EPHRON: Yes.
BEHAR: The book is called "I Remember Nothing" which is not true. She remembers everything. Goodnight, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
