Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Pet Hoarders; Boys in Pageant
Aired December 28, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Americans love their pets, we really do. But how do you know if you have too many? It`s a fine line between compassionate and crazy cat lady, right? So what is the point at which a person goes from being a pet owner to a pet hoarder?
With me now are some of the people featured in Animal Planet`s "Confessions: Animal Hoarding": Robin, who had over incredibly 20 pets; Janice, whose pet collection topped out at over 90 animals -- she`s laughing; and Karen Cassiday, a clinical psychologist and owner of the Anxiety and Agoraphobia Treatment Center in Chicago.
Robin, 20 pets, what happened? Tell me your story, Robin.
ROBIN, ANIMAL HOARDER: Tell you my story. Well I grew up as an animal lover. So it`s kind of easy to get into the habit of having lots of animals around.
But I think that my fall from grace came with a traumatic experience as it does for most people I think in my -- in my case. I had breast cancer and as I was going through breast cancer, although I was surrounded by people that loved me and things, good things going on, I really felt quite alone.
I went to all the chemotherapy treatments alone. You know, I came home alone. But I had my two little girls there. And the comfort that I got came from the four cats that would lay on my bed with me and you know, love me unconditionally through the days I was getting sick and --
BEHAR: How did it get from 4 to 20? How did it go from four --
ROBIN: Well -- well, I started out. I had two dogs and four cats at the time. And then once, once all the treatment and everything was through, it was just kind of a -- a natural progression for me to just add more. Add more things to love, add more things to love me back.
BEHAR: I got it. Now, what animals did you have, though? What were they, dogs?
ROBIN: I had four dogs. I had seven cats. And four birds. And then the rest were small animals, frogs and lizards.
BEHAR: But the birds, weren`t they scared of the cats?
ROBIN: No. Actually you know what the funny thing is seven cats, not one time did the cats ever go after the birds.
BEHAR: Really?
ROBIN: My husband went after the birds.
BEHAR: What?
ROBIN: But the cats never went after the birds.
BEHAR: Ok.
ROBIN: My husband hated those birds.
BEHAR: He hated the birds? Really why did he --
ROBIN: He did.
BEHAR: -- they pooped on his head, probably, right?
ROBIN: No, no, no they made a lot of noise --
BEHAR: Oh yes.
ROBIN: -- and there were times when I said, you know, he said get rid of the birds. And I said, well you know what, the kids make a lot of noise, should I get rid of them, too. You know kinds of things so was always kind of a --
BEHAR: Did you ever get rid of him?
ROBIN: No, no. No but they asked me if I would. They did ask me on the show if I would give up, would I choose the animals or him if I had to make a choice and I chose the animals.
BEHAR: You did, you said you would choose the animals?
ROBIN: I did, I did say that.
BEHAR: Ok, all right, Janice, let`s go to you. How many animals do you have, Janice?
JANICE, ANIMAL HOARDER: Hi, I have 97 dogs. I had 20 cats.
BEHAR: You --
JANICE: I had five goats.
BEHAR: You had 97 dogs --
JANICE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- 20 cats and what else?
JANICE: Five goats.
BEHAR: Goats?
JANICE: Yes.
BEHAR: Where did you keep them -- all these animals?
JANICE: We had five acres. We had five acres. So it, you know, it was, it was a lot of land for all of them.
BEHAR: And why did you -- why do you feel -- why did you get that?
KAREN CASSIDAY, A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Janice, you`ve got to tell people the cats and dogs were all in your trailer. So -- the goats got to live outside.
JANICE: Yes, the goats didn`t live inside, for sure.
BEHAR: No, the goats were not. But the animals were all inside. That`s a lot of dogs and cats to be indoors.
JANICE: It is a lot of dogs and cats. I can tell you that that what happened was, that I -- I started out raising Yorkies. And then I ended up getting hooked up with this guy, and it became a very abusive relationship.
It became a way of him keeping me there. I -- got where I couldn`t leave. He would threaten me. And you know, and I, and I couldn`t let somebody just take my dogs and put them down because he would threaten to take them in to the county and put them down. And so I took care of them.
I did everything that I could do. I loved them, I took care of them. And it was a lot on me. It was a lot on me. But I couldn`t get away.
BEHAR: Yes. But I mean -- I understand where you`re coming from. I love my doggies --
JANICE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and I have a cat, too.
So I -- I understand, but I have two dogs and a cat and I have, I have shared custody with my daughter.
JANICE: Right.
BEHAR: So -- but -- that`s 100 animals, approximately in one space. How did it get to be all of those animals? I mean you start with two and then what happens?
JANICE: Well, what happened was, when I moved in with him, of course, I got breast cancer really bad.
BEHAR: Also.
JANICE: Yes, I did. And I actually had 27 out of 30 lymph nodes positive and I had to go through a bone marrow transplant. They didn`t think I was going to survive. By the time that I got out of the hospital, my husband was supposed to be taking care of the dogs and the animals and he wasn`t watching them very well.
So when I got home, I had ten dogs that were pregnant, dropping puppies everywhere --
BEHAR: Oh boy.
JANICE: And I couldn`t find a shelter or a rescue --
BEHAR: Yes.
JANICE: -- that would take them. Because they were like, well you`ve got to get on a waiting list.
BEHAR: Ok.
Karen, what I`m hearing is trauma here, that`s causing this type of hoarding. What are you hearing?
CASSIDAY: Well, what we know from science is that people who hoard animals typically have traumatic or distressing life events that happen that`s associated with the onset of hoarding.
But we think that`s not just the problem --
BEHAR: Hoarding animals or hoarding anything?
CASSIDAY: Well, you know 40 percent of object hoarders hoard animals.
BEHAR: Really?
CASSIDAY: And we really think animal hoarding is a variant of hoarding behavior. And we do consider them a mental health problem. We know that animal hoarders view their relationship with their animals as being a very special, loving one. They`re more likely to attribute human characteristics to their animals than other pet owners do.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
CASSIDAY: And they tend to have difficulties with organization, making decisions, procrastinating.
BEHAR: Robin --
CASSIDAY: Things that make it easy to hoard.
BEHAR: Robin -- your daughter said that your pets were your drug.
ROBIN: Yes, I thought it was quite of an interesting -- an interesting analogy. I -- I did. There was kind of a -- euphoria I think every time a new animal came in. And it got to the point where I was actually hiding them. I would bring in a new cat and hide it in my daughter -- one daughter`s bedroom for a couple of weeks until the other cats smelled it out and there wouldn`t be any fights.
And then all of a sudden I`d say by the way honey there is another cat in the house. So I was using it that way. I was happy doing it and I was --
BEHAR: I had a friend who did that with dresses, but you don`t have to feed an outfit.
Tell us what the cure is for this. It sounds like a mental disorder of some kind. Does that upset you two ladies, when I say it`s a mental disorder?
ROBIN: Not at all.
BEHAR: Ok. Because it seems a little out of control, frankly. Karen? What`s the cure?
CASSIDAY: Well, we know unfortunately if you don`t do therapy 100 percent of the people with animal hoarding relapse. And the treatment that we use right now is one we use for object hoarding.
We do something called motivational interviewing where we try to help the person understand that the best way to love the animals and their family or friends, is to give them up and to just have a reasonable amount. And then we try to help them learn to develop an identity and a way of living that is not based on just perfect love with animals, but connecting with their people and friends and their community.
BEHAR: Yes. You ladies both gave up your pets, right? Robin, you gave up 21 of your pets.
ROBIN: No, no, I did not.
I did not give up all my pets. I gave up one dog and three of my cats.
BEHAR: What have you got left?
ROBIN: I have three dogs and four cats. Oh, and the birds were also given up.
BEHAR: The birds, you had to give the birds up.
ROBIN: Had to because my husband was threatening to use them as an appetizer for dinner. So it was not a good situation.
BEHAR: Yes. I mean it sounds like you have it under control, a little bit now. That`s not as many --
ROBIN: I`m getting there. I`m getting there, yes.
BEHAR: You`re getting there. And Janice, you gave up all but two dogs, I understand, and one cat.
JANICE: Two dogs and one cat and I`m happy with that.
BEHAR: Yes.
JANICE: I`m happy with that, I`m perfectly satisfied that I have two dogs and one cat and I have my life back.
BEHAR: Did you have withdrawal when you had to give them up? There`s separation anxiety when you give up a pet, too.
JANICE: I do miss them because like I said, I was put in that situation, and I had to take care of them. And, yes, you take care of them for so long, yes, you do love them and you do take care of them. You do want the best for them.
BEHAR: Where are they? What happened to them?
JANICE: Well, the Humane Society came. As soon as the Humane Society came, I knew right then and there I could let them go, because I knew they were ok and I knew I could get out of there and I could leave. And get out of the relationship I was in.
BEHAR: Karen, 250,000 animals are reportedly affected by animal hoarding a year. So people who are watching right now, is there anything that they can do to help the situation? I mean there are all of these animals out there.
CASSIDAY: Well I think the best thing is to contact animal control to -- if you have a relationship with a person that hoards to gently confront them and ask them if they need some help. But you have to use a combined approach where you`re trying to encourage them to get treatment. Getting animal control involved because most people can`t make that initial decision to give up their animals. They love them dearly. It hurts to let go.
BEHAR: Right. I know. It`s very hard. It`s very hard when they go. When they go to dog heaven and cat heaven, it`s pretty upsetting for everybody.
Thanks, everybody.
JANICE: Thank you.
ROBIN: Thanks Joy.
BEHAR: Up next, I`ll speak to a mother and son pageant duo about the growing number of boys entering beauty contests.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know, when you think of children`s beauty pageants you usually see them as just little girls in ball gowns and tiaras. But there are more and more boys competing in these pageants. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACY MILLER, 5-YR-OLD SON COMPETES IN PAGEANT: My name is Tracy and 5-year-old son Zander is a pageant king.
Oh let me put your clear gloss on your lips.
A lot of people are wondering why boys are in pageants. They think he`s going to be on the wrong side of the fence. I`m so not concerned.
Ok. So I am a little concerned.
ZANDER MILLER, COMPETES IN BEAUTY PAGEANTS: I just love doing all this stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So what lures boys to the glitz and glamour of the pageant world? Here now to discuss further are Tracy Miller, a pageant mom whose two sons compete in pageants. With her is her 6-year-old son Zander, a pageant competitor who is featured on TLC`s "Toddlers and Tiaras". And -- and here with me on the set is clinical psychologist, Laura Markham.
Let me start with Tracy and Zander. Tracy, how and when did Zander start in pageants? How old was he?
T. MILLER: He was about 18 months when he started and he has been doing them ever since. He just -- we just found an ad in the paper and -- and -- and entered him in to it and it just took off from there.
BEHAR: And you have another child who is only three now. Did you start that child at 18 months also?
T. MILLER: We tried. We tried doing his first pageant pretty close to that age. He was not interested at all. Did not show any interest, actually threw a fit on stage.
So we knew that it wasn`t for him. And then out of the clear blue he asked to do one at the beginning of this year so we put him in one and he enjoyed it. He wanted to do another one.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why do you -- why do you think he changed his mind, he was watching his brother?
T. MILLER: I`m not sure what changed his mind. And I really -- I really don`t believe this is something he really wants to do. Once -- like once he can see you know how much fun soccer is or football then I -- I definitely think he`ll be going that way --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I see.
T. MILLER: -- going over to that.
BEHAR: Zander, let me ask you what do you like about being in pageants? What`s so great about it?
Z. MILLER: I -- I get to do my thing and win trophies and crowns and sashes.
BEHAR: Can you -- can you tell me what he said, mother, because I couldn`t quite get it.
T. MILLER: He likes to do his thing and get crowns and sashes and I don`t think Zander really knows -- he actually wins a lot of money doing these, too.
BEHAR: Oh he gets money, yes. You know, on the TLC show Zander said he doesn`t like to lose because you might be sad. Do you think he is doing this for you?
T. MILLER: I`m not sure where that comment came from. I -- I honestly don`t believe Zander is doing them for me. I think he may have heard me say I don`t know what I would do if Zander ever lost because he`s never lost.
So he may have got it from there. But I -- I mean, Zander, are you doing this for me or for you?
Z. MILLER: Because I want to do it.
T. MILLER: There we go.
BEHAR: What did he say? I can`t -- because he wants to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
T. MILLER: Because I want to do it.
BEHAR: So Zander do you think your mom would be sad if you lost?
Z. MILLER: No.
BEHAR: No. You would be sad. Do you think you would be sad if you lost?
Z. MILLER: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes. You would be sad.
Well, you know, people do lose things all the time. You know? Not everybody wins. What do your friends say at school about you being in the pageant, Zander?
Z. MILLER: That they -- they really don`t say much about me in pageants.
BEHAR: They don`t -- they don`t bother you or bully you about it? Or did they bully -- mother, do -- do the children bully your son at all or tease him about it?
T. MILLER: As far as I know, no one has ever teased him or bullied him, picked on him, made a bad comment. I -- all I`ve heard is, wow. That`s cool. Girls chasing him on the playground, all positive right now.
BEHAR: Ok. That -- that`s fine. Ok. So you know what?
The thing about it is, unfortunately there is a stigma attached to boys when they do traditionally girlie things, you know. When they play with dolls or they put on tiaras or dress like girls or whatever. They have a little bit of trouble with their peers. Are you -- are you concerned about that at all?
T. MILLER: Zander is a very strong personality. He is not a follower. So I`m not too worried about Zander having issues. He`s -- we`re raising him, you know, care about yourself. Don`t hurt others. As long as you`re happy and you`re not hurting anyone, then don`t worry about what other people say. I know words hurt and I know people are mean and hateful.
BEHAR: They can be.
T. MILLER: And they can be very mean and hateful. But I don`t feel that I`m sheltering Zander but I am definitely letting him be happy.
BEHAR: Yes. I hear what you`re saying. And when he gets a little bit older though it might be a little bit different because, you know, he gets older, children change as they grow. Physically they don`t look the same. What`s going to happen then? Or are you not thinking that far ahead?
T. MILLER: It doesn`t matter if he`s changed -- if his looks change. He`s still going to be Zander. It doesn`t matter if his body changes. He`s still going to be Zander to us. To the public I really don`t care.
BEHAR: Ok. All right, thanks, Tracy. And thank you, Zander. Good luck to both of you.
T. MILLER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s talk to clinical psychologist and parenting expert Laura Markham. You just listened to the interview. The kid enjoys the pageants.
LAURA MARKHAM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
BEHAR: What`s the big deal about it?
MARKHAM: He seems to like them.
BEHAR: So what would be wrong with it?
MARKHAM: I actually don`t think that pageants are good for kids in general. They teach kids to be inauthentic.
BEHAR: Inauthentic?
MARKHAM: Inauthentic. They teach kids to have a false self and to perform at an age, at this age it`s very early, before they have developed other gifts that they might have. On the other hand, I want to say that`s for girls and boys.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARKHAM: And I also -- I also think that all children come to us with gifts and we want them, we don`t really care about them, you know -- the criticism here is about homophobia, I think.
BEHAR: Ok. Hold that thought. We`ll be right back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with clinical psychologist Laura Markham and we are talking about boys competing in beauty pageants.
So Laura, you were saying something about homophobia involved. Where were you going with that?
MARKHAM: Well, I think when a boy does things that are traditionally thought of as girlie it invites the full crashing down of homophobia on their heads and parents have to be aware that that could happen to their son.
Now, of course, is it ok with us if this boy might grow up gay? He is no less dear to us because he is gay. Right? But there are people in this culture who are hateful and homophobic and get nervous if pink is a boy`s favorite color.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARKHAM: And so when a boy wants to dress as a princess for Halloween or act in a beauty pageant sometimes they suffer the consequences of that and parents need to support them through this.
BEHAR: But you`re not implying, I don`t think, that if a child is in a beauty pageant and likes girlie things that it will make him into a homosexual.
MARKHAM: Not at all.
BEHAR: No.
MARKHAM: There is no way to make someone gay.
BEHAR: Exactly.
MARKHAM: If we could make people gay or straight all of those gay people throughout history who suffered at the hands of homophobia would have been straight. We can`t do that.
BEHAR: That`s right. I know.
I think that that point has to always be made over and over again that it is not a choice.
MARKHAM: That`s right.
BEHAR: You know, people should not be attacked for something that they can`t help. If they wanted to be straight they could have been. They would have. But they can`t. Ok.
So what about this business of the kid feeling sad if he loses? That I thought, that was not good, because kids need to know that they can lose at baseball games and pageants as well.
MARKHAM: Absolutely. And any time a parent is too invested in the child`s performance, there is a problem there. Clearly, this boy had never lost before and his mom would have -- she said, I wouldn`t know what to do if he lost. That is a heavy message to give to a little kid.
BEHAR: I think so too. I mean recently an 11-year-old boy was bullied for being on a cheerleading squad. Isn`t bullying -- you talked about the homophobia but just bullying with his peers --
MARKHAM: Well, but we know that bullying is picking out someone who`s different. Homophobia is fear of someone who is different in a particular way. Right? So, much of the bullying that goes on is, in fact, using language that calls somebody gay whether they`re gay or not.
BEHAR: Yes, I know.
What is the mother supposed to do? What should she do this woman? Should she take him out of the pageant? She has another one, 3 years old. She said that kid didn`t want to be in. That was interesting.
MARKHAM: Right. Right.
BEHAR: She didn`t seem like she was going to push that other one into it if he didn`t like it.
MARKHAM: No she didn`t and it did seem that the older boy really loved doing it now.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARKHAM: Clearly this is a choice the mother made. She started him off when he was a baby. He didn`t make the choice to do this.
BEHAR: No.
MARKHAM: Now he likes it. He`s finding meaning in it. If it helps him discover who he is, I suspect that this is not going to go on for long into his childhood. I suspect, you know, when you look at the research on this, kids usually reach a saturation point and they don`t want to do it anymore.
BEHAR: Well, you know, I think that children should be allowed to be free to do what they feel like doing. As Marlo Thomas -- free to be you and me -- said. Right.
But I think that children are programmed to some extent to enjoy the applause, to enjoy the adulation, all that goes with being in a pageant, being in a beauty contest. You know, I don`t think that it`s the healthiest way to raise a child. That`s just me.
MARKHAM: I think -- in fact, the research shows that it`s not a healthy way to raise a child, that kids are prone to getting eating disorders, anxiety disorders.
BEHAR: Well, yes. There`s that.
MARKHAM: It`s actually a really bad way to raise a child in beauty pageants and it does train kids to feel they need to perform at all times.
BEHAR: Exactly. Ok. Thanks very much, Laura.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: He is one man with four wives and 16 kids. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KODY BROWN, POLYGAMIST HUSBAND: I like marriage, and I`m a repeat offender. Twenty years ago, I married Meri, and then, 17 years ago, I married Janelle, and then, 16 years ago, I married Christine. I just fell in love and then I fell in love again and then I fell in love again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: How one man can juggle all that is beyond me, but what do I know? Here now to talk about their polygamist family and their new TLC series "Sister Wives" are Kody Brown, the man who has four wives, Meri, his first wife, Janelle his second wife, Christine wife number three, and Robyn, wife number four, who just recently married Kody. Welcome to the show, you guys. I must tell you that I love the show. It`s riveting.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s the real deal. Now, big love is fictionalized. This is fabulous. Love it. Let start with you, Kody, since you are sitting here next to me. Polygamy is illegal. So, the first question is how come you can do this?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Good answer. How about you? Is he this quiet around all of you?
(CROSSTALK)
KODY BROWN: They`ve determined that it`s more or less, at this point, a lifestyle choice.
BEHAR: It`s a lifestyle.
KODY BROWN: Yes. And so, it`s really tough to prosecute love on that issue, I think.
BEHAR: So, you`re not all legally married?
KODY BROWN: No.
BEHAR: You`re only legally married to Meri --
KODY BROWN: Correct.
BEHAR: Your first wife, right?
KODY BROWN: That`s right.
BEHAR: So, the rest of you got married in a ceremony, a church-type of ceremony?
KODY BROWN: Just a religious ceremony.
BEHAR: And that`s okay with everybody.
MERI BROWN, POLYGAMIST, FIRST WIFE: Everybody meaning us?
BEHAR: Let`s start with you.
MERI BROWN: Yes.
BEHAR: You`re okay with all of that? Because, I mean, legally, in a certain way, when you die, will she be the one who gets all your money?
KODY BROWN: Well, if she`s fair, she`ll divvy it out well.
BEHAR: Oh, if she`s fair. That`s not worth the paper it`s written on, Kody.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. You`re all not worried.
CHRISTINE BROWN, POLYGAMIST, THIRD WIFE: No, honestly. We work together well.
BEHAR: Meri, are you worried about the exposure this show will bring to the family at all?
MERI BROWN: You know, there definitely has been a concern when we decided to go ahead and do the show, you know, it was just coming out like this and just exposing us to everybody. Just -- it did kind of make us all a little bit nervous.
BEHAR: You`re kind of natural on television, I have to tell you. Everybody seems very comfortable.
MERI BROWN: Thank you. But our hearts beat wildly inside.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean, 16 children all together. What a guy. I mean, you must be exhausted, are you?
KODY BROWN: Just have a lot of energy, I guess.
BEHAR: You have a lot of energy. How do you find the time to be with all of these women?
KODY BROWN: I quit watching TV as much.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
KODY BROWN: I fit you in last week.
BEHAR: Did you fit me in? Can I be the fifth wife?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: How do you support everybody?
KODY BROWN: I actually don`t. We all --
BEHAR: Everybody works --
KODY BROWN: Pretty much.
CHRISTINE BROWN: Three of us work right now. I`m looking for a job, and she gets to stay home.
BEHAR: You get to stay home. You like staying home, right?
ROBYN BROWN, POLYGAMIST, FOURTH WIFE: Love staying home.
BEHAR: And you don`t like staying home.
MERI BROWN: No, she doesn`t.
BEHAR: One of you likes to work. It`s you. OK.
JANELLE BROWN, POLYGAMIST, SECOND WIFE: I do.
MERI BROWN: That`s the benefit of this is that she can go off and work.
BEHAR: But then don`t you get stuck with all the house work? Christine?
CHRISTINE BROWN: I don`t do it all. I mean, I have a real awesome system, and I expect the kids to do their share.
JANELLE BROWN: Sixteen kids.
CHRISTINE BROWN: Yes. I have a real set schedule, and the kids help out amazingly.
BEHAR: You all live in one big house, right?
CHRISTINE BROWN: There are two houses.
BEHAR: Oh, two houses. I have to talk about your sex lives for a second.
KODY BROWN: You can`t.
CHRISTINE BROWN: You can`t.
BEHAR: Yes, I can. And I will.
(CROSSTALK)
MERI BROWN (ph): We`ll watch you talk about it.
BEHAR: I mean, do you -- I don`t understand how you do it, Kody. Tell me. I mean, every night is another woman or every other night? It`s exhausting, is it not?
KODY BROWN: It`s not exhausting because that`s not what marriage is all about.
BEHAR: Oh, I know that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You`re not telling me something I don`t know.
KODY BROWN: OK. Well, then, you know the whole story.
BEHAR: Yes. So, but, now you have a new wife coming in, Robyn. And has that upset the cart at all the fact that you know, you, guys, have been together the four of you for a while, and now comes this new upstart, you know? Does that upset the cart at all sexually let`s say? Meri?
MERI BROWN: We`re not talking about that issue.
BEHAR: Oh, we`re not.
MERI BROWN: No.
JANELLE BROWN: We told you.
MERI BROWN: That`s very private.
BEHAR: Oh, you were serious you`re not talking about it.
MERI BROWN: Yes, right.
KODY BROWN: Actually, I just know the things that a gentleman doesn`t tell.
ROBYN BROWN: And neither do ladies, honestly.
MERI BROWN: We can talk about our family, though.
KODY BROWN: On a social level with the family, yes, Robyn coming into the family has been kind of a fruit basket upset. Everything is adjusting. You know, we`re having to adjust new schedule. I`m actually following more of an established schedule now. So, things have just, you know --
BEHAR: No, I mean, I thought I was very impressed with the way all of the women got along separate from you in a way. You know, he`s in the picture, but you, guys, seem to like being with each other. Is that true?
MERI BROWN: It is true. It`s a big part of the relationship is for the four of us, women, to get along.
CHRISTINE BROWN: If we were doing it for the camera, it just wouldn`t last (INAUDIBLE) either.
MERI BROWN: Yes, we genuinely really like each other.
BEHAR: Robyn, did you have any hesitation of being the last wife?
ROBYN BROWN: I knew that I was going to be coming into a family with a man that had a wife already. I already knew that. I knew that was part of my belief system. And so, I was already, my brain was already adjusted. I actually wanted it. I had other options and I chose to go --
BEHAR: You chose that.
ROBYN BROWN: Yes.
BEHAR: Don`t you guys ever get jealous of each other? What if he spends more time with Meri or with Robyn? You know, what happens between the four of you when that happens?
CHRISTINE BROWN: We have to work -- if he`s spending more time with one wife at one time, he always balances it out. He`s very fair. Jealousy? Sure. There`s jealousy because --
BEHAR: There is.
CHRISTINE BROWN: Of course. Because, you know, it stems from insecurity, it stems from selfishness, and so, it`s just overcoming those things and becoming a better person.
BEHAR: Do you have to compliment them all every day?
KODY BROWN: If I don`t, yes.
CHRISTINE BROWN (ph): If not, we remind him.
KODY BROWN: They communicate. They tell me what they need, and we work it out.
BEHAR: They do. And, you know, what about the kids? Let`s talk about the kids. You have a lot of kids, all of you. Who gets the brunt of taking care of all the kids?
CHRISTINE BROWN: I probably take care of the --
BEHAR: Christine?
MERI BROWN: Well, right now, Robyn is home.
JANELLE BROWN: Yes, I mean, like, we definitely, I have my own children and Meri has her child and we all have our own children, but as far as the day-to-day running them to this appointment and that appointment, that kind of care falls to Christine.
CHRISTINE BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) and now, I love it.
BEHAR: You love it?
CHRISTINE BROWN: Yes.
JANELLE BROWN: But when I`m home I`m able to engage with my children, and so, it`s --
BEHAR: Would you like the kids to live a polygamist lifestyle like you guys all doing?
KODY BROWN: We want them to choose what`s going to make them happy.
BEHAR: How will they know? I mean, this is what they`re exposed to.
JANELLE BROWN: They have plenty of monogamous friends and family. We have family that are monogamous.
BEHAR: I know, but they`re growing up with you, guys, as role models.
KODY BROWN: Some of them are already choosing. Some of them already expressed a desire to be just monogamous.
CHRISTINE BROWN: Some don`t, some do. You`ll see it. I mean, some of the kids talk about it on "Sister Wives."
BEHAR: How many wives do you want?
KODY BROWN: None. I mean --
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
KODY BROWN: No more. Here`s the thing. I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Oh, that was great.
KODY BROWN: If you don`t go out saying, hey, I want seven or ten, you know. You can`t do that. This is, you know, Christine was the newest wife for 16 years. We really weren`t looking. And when we met Robyn, it was just a perfect match, a perfect situation, and she fit into the family.
BEHAR: So it was just serendipitous that you happened to meet Robyn, you weren`t looking.
KODY BROWN: Exactly.
ROBYN BROWN: Exactly.
BEHAR: Because you were satisfied with your life and these women?
KODY BROWN: Very happy with our lives.
BEHAR: OK. Is there any kind of hierarchy amongst you? I mean, you`re number one, Meri, so do you rule the roost?
MERI BROWN: No, I don`t. It`s actually a team effort. The whole five of this, it`s a just a team effort. We all have input that we give and, you know, just kind of take it all in.
JANELLE BROWN: You might see that if you really want something or Christine really wants something or Robyn wants something, we push for that for each other.
BEHAR: You push. You seem very cohesive. Thanks very much, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this.
Up next, a look inside the disturbing world of extreme eating disorders.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The number of Americans suffering from eating disorders is on the rise. There are disturbing variations of this illness, everything from anorexia and bulimia to binge eating and craving for nonfood items like paper and chalk. That`s right. And it`s all chronicled in E!`s new show "What`s Eating You."
With me now are three women featured on the show, Mona, who is a binge eater despite having had a Lap-Band that reduced her stomach`s capacity, Jennifer who`s been a binger/purger for 20 years, and Keri Glassman, registered dietician and Jennifer`s nutritionist.
OK. Mona, let me start with you, because we`re going to show a clip of you. You had Lap-Band surgery in 2007, but you found a very creative way to get around that. I saw it. Let`s watch what happens in the show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONA, BINGE-EATER DESPITE HAVING LAP-BAND: I usually start with creamy chicken soup. Anything that would easily slide through the band is called slider foods, and that`s what I live on.
Round two, mashed potatoes and gravy. This is round three for tonight. I can`t stop. I can`t stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now, first of all, I have to ask you about lap banding. Did you have insurance for it?
MONA: No, I paid cash for it.
BEHAR: You paid. How much did it cost you?
MONA: About $14,000.
BEHAR: $14,000, so now, you gained a lot of weight back, right?
MONA: Well, I lost 150, and I gained 50 back since the therapy. With the reality show "What`s Eating You," I`ve lost 23 pounds of that again.
BEHAR: Oh, so you`ve really only gained 25 pounds back?
MONA: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Well, so, that`s interesting that you -- television put you back on some kind of diet or what?
MONA: Well, I think it was the therapy. I started realizing that I was binging. The only thing that I`ve changed is I`ve stopped binging, and I`ve lost the 23 pounds in around two months without binging. So, the difference is I`m still eating probably the wrong foods. I`m just not binging on them.
BEHAR: So, you had therapy to stop you from binging?
MONA: Yes.
BEHAR: What was the trigger? I`m curious.
MONA: I was emotionally eating, eating for emotional reasons.
BEHAR: And now, you`re not.
MONA: No. I mean, I still am, but not as much. I`m not binging. I had a ritual that I did every night that I do not do anymore.
BEHAR: I see. So, they broke you of that habit.
MONA: They did.
BEHAR: Good for you.
MONA: I mean, I still have a long way to go, but I think that with this therapy that I`m getting now, it`s something I should have had way before I had the Lap-Band, and if I would have had done it, I probably wouldn`t need the Lap-Band.
BEHAR: Right. Right. You want to jump in?
KERI GLASSMAN, NUTRITIONIST, "WHAT`S EATING YOU": I want to make a comment about that. I did not work with Mona. She worked with - she`s in another state, but I spoke with her therapist, and one thing we discussed was how Mona was not even aware of the fact that she was emotionally eating. And that is a really serious issue with, obviously, millions of people out there, but, especially, when you have Lap-Band surgery.
If you have that surgery, you reduce the size of your stomach, but if you don`t deal with the emotional issues, you`re going to gain that weight back. And that`s what happened with Mona. She was still eating emotionally which caused her to be a bulimic. She was overeating and then --
BEHAR: What did you think? Were you just hungry? You weren`t just hungry. You must have known there was some other reason you were eating.
MONA: Well, you know, once I started eating, it was like something clicked in my head. I just went on auto pilot, and by the end of the night, I was like, holy crap, look how much I ate. And I didn`t even realize that --
BEHAR: Compulsive.
MONA: Compulsive. Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Jennifer, let me talk to you. Now, you`ve been binging and purging for 20 years. They call that bulimia, am I right?
JENNIFER, "WHAT`S EATING YOU": Yes. Well, I don`t fit into a box. I think, I`ve done variety of things.
BEHAR: Let`s look at the clip before you talk, OK? Let`s look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER: I can`t go through the day without every minute thinking of food, body, calories, or you`re fat. You`re never going to get skinny if you don`t stop doing this or that. Feeling awful about what I ate, wanting things and not letting myself have them. It`s just nonstop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: When you look in the mirror, do you see yourself as overweight?
JENNIFER: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: You do.
JENNIFER: Like it`s hideous. I disgust myself.
BEHAR: Really?
JENNIFER: You know, I was trying to get ready for this and just looking and I was like oh, my face is so fat. I was like I wish I had just gotten in better shape, you know? It`s just everywhere.
BEHAR: OK. Now, Mona says that she got some therapy, and she understood that it was emotional, and she made some connections. Have you been able to make any connections with this distorted view you have of yourself? Because it is distorted.
JENNIFER: I`ve come to, I guess, accept that there is a distortion. But I struggle with accepting that in a way of actually believing it here. And here.
BEHAR: Was this some kind of trauma that you, two, suffered as children or something to cause you to have such a distortion of reality?
MONA: Yes. I suffered from a lot of bullying in school from as long as I can remember.
BEHAR: Aha. How about you?
JENNIFER: There was some sexual abuse, and later, emotional and verbal abuse.
BEHAR: OK. Are you in therapy to find out about that and the connection that it has to this bulimia that you have?
JENNIFER: Yes. The funny thing is I`ve been in therapy since I was about 14, and I was actually diagnosed bulimic then, and I kept asking for help targeted toward the eating disorder and everybody just kind of swept it under the rug. Maybe, they thought if some of the other things were taken care of, that would go away, and it hasn`t.
BEHAR: You can`t sweep these things under the rug.
JENNIFER: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, they`re on the rise, eating disorders. Ten million Americans suffer from eating disorders and a British study has -- is showing that the number of children admitted to a hospital due to eating disorders has risen by 11 percent in the past year. And everybody knows that this country, we have issues with food that are just getting out of control. I mean, Keri, why do you think that is? How much is society to blame? We were talking during the break about bullying. What is your take on that?
GLASSMAN: One thing I do want to say 10 million women and actually 1 million men have eating disorders and then millions others with other forms of disorder eating. So, it`s actually even more than that.
BEHAR: So, 10 million women and only 1 million men. So, it`s really a woman`s issue more.
GLASSMAN: Well, it`s more but we can`t forget I think the show, "What`s Eating You," does show it that it does affect a variety of people, gender, different ages from all different types of backgrounds. We can look at society, of course. I mean, models are thinner than 98 percent of the population. But also you have to look at genetics and your environment. All of those factors play a role, and it doesn`t have to just be a traumatic event.
In Mona and Jennifer`s case, they did have trauma in their past that may have helped them or encouraged their eating disorder to come on, but it doesn`t have to be. You don`t have to necessarily suffer trauma. Again, it can be environment, society, your genes.
BEHAR: Well, Jennifer, you were saying during the break that your parents, your family used to say you`re fat, am I right?
JENNIFER: Yes. My brothers and my cousins.
BEHAR: Your brothers. I mean, that`s not helpful.
JENNIFER: No.
BEHAR: It makes you think that you look in the mirror, and you say, well, maybe they`re right.
GLASSMAN: One thing I want to say about Jennifer also that she is not a classic bulimic or a classic anorexic. We, actually, Jennifer and I work together. And this also, I think, where people often think of people as, you know, let`s say that skeletal person or teenager they see as someone with an eating disorder. There are millions of other people out there with eating disorders like Jennifer which is called EDNOS, eating disorder not otherwise specified.
Jennifer has symptoms such as chewing and spitting, hoarding, saving little bits of food. And these affect millions of people out there, and there are a variety of types of disorders out there.
BEHAR: So, what goes on through your mind in these desperate kinds of moments when you are doing things like you`re eating what your roommate is throwing down the garbage disposal? That was in the show. And then you purge it, obviously. What`s happening in your head when that`s happening?
JENNIFER: Sheer panic. I don`t, and I don`t understand it. But I just know it`s panic. And the food is going away, and I have to have it and a lot of times I`ll just be putting it in, but it`s coming out at the same time, you know, chewing and spitting.
BEHAR: How can Mona keep on the track that she`s on? Because she seems to be doing better.
GLASSMAN: She is doing great. And Jana (INAUDIBLE) is also making amazing strides. When I was speaking with Mona`s therapist, we were talking about the fact that she`s really started to connect to her emotions, and by connecting to her emotions and dealing with her emotions, not through food, she`s been able to reduce the binges, and I think she has actually gone a month without binging right now?
MONA: Almost two months.
GLASSMAN: So, she`s making amazing strides.
BEHAR: So, that whole business in the piece that I saw where you were eating like gravy so that you could, it would go down smoothly.
MONA: Right. Because the band stops food from going down, so I`d use slider foods so I could eat more.
BEHAR: Thank you, ladies. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guests spent years working as call girls, but now, one of them has found a higher calling and is helping girls get off the streets. Her efforts are chronicled in the new show "Hookers Saved on the Strip." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNIE LOBERT, FORMER PROSTITUTE: Regina didn`t call us because she was broke. Regina had money. She just got into too many different situations where she was about to die and she knew that if she didn`t quit now, it would eventually happen to her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was scared all the time. I didn`t want to end my life with a trick killing me. You don`t know what these guys are thinking. It messes with your head and your emotions and your nerves and your sanity. It`s hard to get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining me now are Annie Lobert, a former prostitute who runs the faith-based mission "Hookers for Jesus" and Regina, also a former prostitute. Hello, ladies. OK. Annie you --
LOBERT: Hi.
BEHAR: Hi. You`re from Minnesota. And I saw some of the footage of the show, and you grew up really very middle class.
LOBERT: Very.
BEHAR: And from like a typical kind of Midwest family. So, how did you become a prostitute out of that?
LOBERT: I was a very rebellious teen. I didn`t like rules. My mom and dad had real strict upbringing and going to church with all those rules. And back then, church was way different. So, naturally, when I hit the age of a teenager, I just went wild.
BEHAR: You went wild.
LOBERT: I went wild.
BEHAR: What were you rebelling against?
LOBERT: Just, you know, the --
BEHAR: The furniture or something?
LOBERT: I guess so. And I think I felt really honestly insecure, and I didn`t feel like anyone loved me, so I had to prove that I was lovable.
BEHAR: Aha. I see. And then after 16 years in the business, you decided to check out and not do it. What made you change your mind?
LOBERT: After that length of time, you think that you get tired of something, don`t you?
BEHAR: Yes.
LOBERT: And just being with all the different men and almost being killed, especially, being with the pimp I was with for a while and having the pimps hunt us down, it just -- it didn`t seem feasible to stay in it any more.
BEHAR: OK. All right. Now, what about this "Hookers for Jesus"? What`s that?
LOBERT: This is something that I formed after I got out of the business. And I felt like I did not want to leave my friends behind. I felt so hurt for them because when I got out of it, I over dosed and I had a heart attack and I had an epiphany with God.
BEHAR: You over dosed on what?
LOBERT: Cocaine.
BEHAR: Oh, so, you were using drugs.
LOBERT: At the very end.
BEHAR: At the end. And you had -- what did you say, had a heart attack?
LOBERT: I had a heart attack.
BEHAR: So, you found Jesus after that.
LOBERT: I did. I did. And it just changed my life because I didn`t think just growing up where I grew up I didn`t think God loved me, and so, when I found out that I had value and I had worth, it`s like my whole mindset changed.
BEHAR: I see.
LOBERT: And I thought to myself I have to go back and tell the girls. They don`t have to do this. They don`t have to give their money away. They don`t have to be abused anymore. And so, it seemed like a great idea, and I started reaching out to the girls.
BEHAR: You were very maternal.
LOBERT: Yes, actually, I was.
BEHAR: You know, I saw the show, one clip of it, anyway, and there`s a very - it`s a very exploitive show in a certain way. I just have to say that because there were tons of pictures of naked women and behinds and pole dancing and everything else. I mean, is that the way they have to sell the show? You don`t have anything to do with that part, do you?
LOBERT: No.
REGINA: I don`t know.
BEHAR: She knows (INAUDIBLE). What about you? What do you say to that?
LOBERT: I just want everyone know that that was who we were, and for us to be --
BEHAR: But it is very titillating to the male audience that`s watching the show.
LOBERT: I understand that, but, hopefully, people can look beyond that and understand that we were actually in the industry.
BEHAR: Yes. I see. I see.
LOBERT: It`s believable.
BEHAR: OK. Goodnight, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
