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Favre`s Follies; Sex in the New Year
Aired January 04, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Apparently the NFL playoffs are less than a week away and New York Jets head coach Rex Ryan and his wife of 23 years are in the news again but not for playing football, for playing footsie. Allegedly the Ryans share a foot fetish which has made Rex the subject of rumor and gossip.
You know some people say this is creepy, but not me. I say Rex is the perfect husband. He is faithful. He has a good job, and loves to go shoe shopping. What`s not to like?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Brett Favre is in trouble again. First he`s fined after allegedly sending raunchy texts to a sideline reporter. Now two former Jets massage therapists are suing the quarterback for sexual harassment. So is this just typical star athlete behavior?
Then if you`re out in Hollywood would you be out of work? Joy will talk to a writer who says Hollywood black lists gay actors from both straight and gay roles.
Plus one NFL coach apparently uses a foot fetish to keep his marriage strong but what other sex tips can couples use to keep things hot in 2011? Sex therapist Ian Kerner has some advice.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Quarterback Brett Favre`s football career may be ending but his legal troubles just beginning. Two female massage therapists for the Jets are suing Favre and his former team claiming he sexually harassed one of them in 2008 and that both lost their jobs as a result. The Jets say the case is completely without merit.
Here to discuss these new allegations and why celebrity athletes seem to have this pattern of bad behavior are Bethany Marshall psychoanalyst; Lisa Guerrero chief investigative correspondent for "Inside Edition" and Elizabeth Eilender, attorney who represents the massage therapists Christina Scavo and Shannon O`Toole.
Welcome to the show.
Elizabeth let me start with you. Now, your clients claim Favre sexually harassed them with these alleged texts.
ELIZABETH EILENDER, ATTORNEY FOR THE MASSAGE THERAPISTS: That`s correct.
BEHAR: Ok. The texts were these: "Brett here. You and Crissy want to get together? I`m all alone. And "Kind of lonely tonight, I guess I have bad intentions."
Now, since when are e-mails sexual harassment and maybe he is just looking for a date?
EILENDER: You know what, Joy, the reality is this is more than just a mere flirtation. The flirtation in the work place goes on between people and we`re all adults. What happened here constitutes harassment because of the retaliation that my clients suffered as a result of this in that the Jets no longer called them for work after the husband of Miss Scavo called Brett Favre to complain and call him on it.
BEHAR: I see.
EILENDER: So when you lose your job, that`s retaliation and that`s (INAUDIBLE) action. It`s more than just --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What did the Jets say the reason they dismissed the girls?
EILENDER: The Jets didn`t give a reason.
BEHAR: They didn`t give a reason.
EILENDER: What it is, is the massage therapists come when they`re called or when the training camp or when the players need massages.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
EILENDER: And so what happened was after this blow-up with Favre they weren`t called again. And so what happened was this fall when all these -- all these issues arose with the Jets the representative on behalf of the Jets, this Lisa Rippy woman, who we`ve also sued in the past --
BEHAR: Her job is to coordinate the massage program which I find very interesting. Here you have these big, burly football players. Why don`t they have big, burly massage therapists, guys?
EILENDER: I can`t speak for them. Maybe they want women to massage them. I don`t know.
But what she did was she worked with -- my understanding is she coordinated with the trainers and she had the massage therapists and made arrangements for the women to come in.
BEHAR: Ok. Now the Jets say that your clients never reported the allegations at the time and that the suit has no merit and now because it happened in 2008. Why file now?
EILENDER: Well, first of all, they had, they did complain. They complained to Brett Favre to stop the harassment but it wasn`t until this past fall when they realized that they had been retaliated against and why they weren`t getting work.
BEHAR: They were working since 2008?
EILENDER: Not for the Jets. Not for the Jets. But when we --
BEHAR: What do you mean they realized it? How did they realize it?
EILENDER: When Lisa Rippy who worked and coordinated for the Jets was calling them and texting them and saying keep your mouth shut, you`ll never work for the Jets again. My clients put two and two together and realized they had been harassed.
BEHAR: ok. All right.
Now, Lisa, let me ask you something. You know Favre. Why do celebrity athletes supposedly behave like this? What is this about?
I mean I`m not saying they all do. Someone just pointed out to me that somebody like Peyton Manning -- who I don`t even know who these people are but someone told me -- Peyton Manning is a football player who has a pristine record, so not all football players act like this.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What is it and is it a Jets problem?
LISA GUERRERO, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "INSIDE EDITION": First of all, you point out somebody like Peyton Manning who is very different than Brett Favre. Peyton Manning is a golden boy. Brett Favre is a good old boy. So these kinds of allegations in the long term aren`t going to hurt somebody like Brett Favre who`s a rough-and-tumble kind of guy you`d go have a beer with, not a martini.
So for women to allege that he has sexted them or texted them inappropriately, believe me, joy, in 50 years when sports historians write about Brett Favre, there will be no mention of a Jets hostess nor two masseuses. They`re just going to say he is one of the greatest NFL quarterbacks that ever played the game. It`s not going to hurt his image at all, not in the long run.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that Elizabeth?
EILENDER: I totally disagree. And in fact, I think it is going to compromise his first round of being inducted into the Hall of Fame. I think it`s appalling that Brett Favre as well as other professional athletes get away with this type of conduct.
This is not limited to the Jets, joy. I think it`s pervasive throughout the league and all men`s professional sports.
BEHAR: It is the Jets. I mean the foot fetishes we spoke of earlier, Rex Ryan is in the Jets. This Inez Sainz, I believe her name is, she was harassed in the locker room. That`s the Jets. It`s always the Jets. What`s up with the Jets?
EILENDER: I think it`s unfortunate --
BEHAR: When you`re a jet, you`re a jet all the way --
EILENDER: You stole my line. You stole my line. I was going to use that line.
BEHAR: I mean what is it with them?
EILENDER: I can`t speak for them. I think it`s -- you know, my husband is a Jet fan so --
BEHAR: Yes.
EILENDER: -- we`re a house divided at this point.
BEHAR: It`s football but this is in the locker room and this is off camera.
Bethany, you`re a therapist. What do you make of this behavior? Just bad boys or what is it -- one question somebody has to answer is why do they always ask for female masseuses?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, we think we need to look at this through the lens of sexual harassment and acting-out behavior. What is that? What it is, is that the person who -- the man who harasses a woman usually has endless wish for reassurance. They want to have power over the woman. They want to neutralize feelings of rejection. They want to reassure themselves that they`re at the heart of the woman`s attentions.
We saw this with Tiger Woods. All of those women that he texted and called intensively, he wanted to know where they were, what they were doing and were they thinking of him? Ok.
So let`s look at the totality of this man`s career. Did he have an insatiable desire for reassurances in other areas? My understanding is that he kept threatening to retire, made his team pursue him, and constantly reassure him that he was wanted.
He`s doing the same thing with these women that he did with his teammates. It`s the exact same thing and I think in certain professions there is a socially-based narcissism.
Narcissism is when you feel unique, above reproach; you play by your own rules instead of the rules of society. And you want your needs met and expectations without appropriate achievement.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true but the Jets hierarchy is looking the other way in this case. It seems to be like oh, these are just boys will be boys. And so boys will act whatever they can get away with they`re going to do. So it`s not just a psychological issue here.
EILENDER: But also if it`s a matter of narcissism then they need to get into counseling. They shouldn`t be harassing women in the work place and forcing women to lose their jobs.
GUERRERO: Joy.
BEHAR: Nobody is going to put them in counseling, Elizabeth, as long as they`re kicking that ball.
EILENDER: That`s right. That`s right.
BEHAR: Go ahead. I`m sorry.
GUERRERO: That`s ok. I was just going to say, we have to get real for a second. I think that people are -- there is a big difference between sexual harassment and flirting.
I was a sports reporter for 14 years. If I threw out a lawsuit on every guy that flirted with me or asked me out on a date I could have retired a rich woman. Maybe I should have done that but I didn`t.
You take -- if you`re a female in sports you`ve got to understand that you`re going to get a certain amount of attention. Now, you know, I can`t speak about the masseuses. I never met them personally but I can talk to you about the game of football in general because I was around it for so long.
I think that we`ve got to make a real big distinction between sexual harassment and flirtation. Are we, as a society, taking these kinds of things too seriously?
BEHAR: What`s the difference, Bethany?
MARSHALL: Ok. The difference is very important. Flirting is when you let someone know they`re wanted. Sexual harassment is when you use, you relate to them on the basis of an inequity of power. All right? So if these women were afraid of losing their jobs or getting into trouble that is sexual harassment.
You made the point of why don`t these guys go to counseling? And this is not just characterological because the profession sanctions it but there is such a thing as socially-reinforced narcissism where the culture in which you find yourself makes you narcissistic.
And look these guys are paid millions of dollars to play a little kid`s game but we`re turning them into little kids. This is a case of arrested development.
BEHAR: Ok. Arrested development.
GUERRERO: Let`s not paint them all with one brush. Let`s not paint them all with one brush.
BEHAR: No, not every -- not all.
GUERRERO: I married -- I married a professional athlete so let`s be very careful about what we -- how we disparage people.
BEHAR: Remember the Peyton Manning moment.
GUERRERO: There we go. Good man.
BEHAR: St. Peyton we`ll call him from now on.
Thanks guys.
Up next: how to liven things up in the bedroom for the New Year. We need to hear that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Remember this video posted last month by DeadSpin.com? The star of this foot fetish video looks a lot like the wife of New York Jets coach Rex Ryan. So have the coach and the wife found the answer to keeping their 23-year marriage alive? Maybe we should all be looking at our spouse`s feet in a whole new light.
Joining me now with some New Year`s resolutions for keeping our sex lives popping in 2011: sex therapist, relationship counselor and CNN Health`s sex expert blogger, Ian Kerner -- welcome, Ian.
IAN KERNER, SEX THERAPIST: Thank you.
BEHAR: You were on last night.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: And I said, I have to have you back because it`s a New Year and a lot of people are complaining about their sex lives.
KERNER: I appreciate that. People really, you know, they don`t put too much energy into their sex life and then, you know, they go off and cheat or something like that.
BEHAR: Well, you know, the thing about it is that in the beginning when you`re really meeting each other and there is a chemistry, you know, better loving through chemistry.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: And then you`re hot for each other and sex is so effortless.
KERNER: Exactly.
BEHAR: You just fall into each other`s arms, you fall into bed and it`s great.
KERNER: Exactly.
BEHAR: And then after a few years of that it`s like what`s for dinner? Where`s the pizza?
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: So, what do you think people should do about that?
KERNER: Well, I mean we started off showing this video, you know.
BEHAR: The foot fetish.
KERNER: Yes. Now listen, everybody has fantasies. Everybody has things that they`re into. I mean, when I see this couple I think the mistake they made was posting it on YouTube which is very exhibitionistic but it seems like this couple they really enjoy the whole foot worship thing as part of their relationship.
BEHAR: Do you think they enjoy the foot worship or the exhibitionism?
KERNER: I actually think -- I think it`s both. I`m not convinced that he is a foot worshiper per se but I think the exhibitionism if you`re going to do this and put that on YouTube, exhibitionism is one of the main fantasies that people have. In some ways they`re just starting -- this couple is just acting out a very, very common fantasy.
BEHAR: What do you mean it`s one of the main fantasies?
KERNER: Well, there are a few very, very common fantasies that both men and women share: exhibitionism, voyeurism, domination, submission, sex with somebody else.
BEHAR: Stop it. You`re turning me on.
But I mean voyeurism I can understand. When you`re driving along and people have their windows and you can see through their window.
KERNER: Sure, the High Line.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
KERNER: Wasn`t that a problem over at the High Line Hotel.
BEHAR: Right. People like that and reading magazines and looking at dirty pictures, I guess, is a turn on.
KERNER: People have, you know, people have -- it`s called a love map and it is your unique sexual fingerprint of your desires, your turn ons, your turn offs. And everybody`s different. I think the point is as a couple what keeps you going for the long term is sharing that because you`re right. In the beginning you`re like under the influence. It`s a neuro chemical cocktail.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: It sort of hijacks you. But then after that it`s just the two of us.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: And if you`re not willing to talk and share and fantasize together what`s left?
BEHAR: Wow. But that`s hard for people to do.
KERNER: Well, you know, it is really hard. I have a little secret. I tell somebody. I always say tell your partner when you wake up, say, you know, I had a really sexy dream about you last night. I don`t know what my unconscious was up to but it was hot. When you sort of blame it on your unconscious or you blame it on your dream you`re not going to be so easily judged by your partner. Then you just fill in a fantasy.
BEHAR: That`s a good idea.
KERNER: But you know the brain --
BEHAR: So, you don`t say like I had a really sexy dream about you. We were out for dinner. You don`t say that.
KERNER: No, you go for --
BEHAR: You were doing this to me and that to me. I was doing this to you.
KERNER: Yes. Yesterday when we were talking everybody makes a whole thing about how you have to have a great relationship and you do have to have a great relationship and holding hands and kissing and hugging. All of that is really important but that doesn`t in the end really make sex hot.
BEHAR: No.
KERNER: If you really want to make sex hot -- it`s not about acting out your fantasies -- it`s about the brain being the biggest sex organ and starting to talk. Opening their mouths and starting to really share stuff.
BEHAR: But if you`re shy, you`re not the type of person to do that I think that`s really difficult to do.
KERNER: That`s when you have that really sexy dream last night.
BEHAR: I would start laughing.
KERNER: You know what? The nice thing is too once you start talking a little bit, an also --
BEHAR: How about alcohol?
KERNER: Sure. Sure.
BEHAR: Let`s say you have a couple martinis. Then maybe the lips could get loose.
KERNER: Too many can lead to, you know -- then you need some -- the guys need some Viagra, some Levitra --
BEHAR: I`m not saying he has to drink it.
KERNER: But alcohol -- yes alcohol lowers your inhibitions. Have a drink. Also the thing that lowers your inhibitions is foreplay so the more you actually like fool around with your partner and engage in foreplay the more those hormones and that neuro chemical cocktail kicks in the more your inhibitions lower so you can also incorporate sort of the --
BEHAR: What do you suggest as a good foreplay thing?
KERNER: As a good --
BEHAR: What`s a good foreplay thing?
KERNER: I think these days what is amazing is in our whole post "Sex in the City" world, you can walk into -- I went to buy mouth wash the other day and right across there are vibrators from Trojan and Toys, there are arousal gels.
BEHAR: You went to buy what?
KERNER: Mouth wash. Mouth wash at -- where was it?
BEHAR: Dwayne Reed.
KERNER: Dwayne Reed --
BEHAR: Really.
KERNER: Right across from the mouth wash. Arousal gels from KY, sex toys from Trojan. So you really just have to go out and buy some mouth wash and there is some inspiration right across the aisle to you.
BEHAR: So it`s just shopping. It`s more shopping. That`s a turn on. That part of this conversation.
KERNER: Well, then there are some high end places too.
BEHAR: What about these fetishes? Is there any fetish that -- what if he likes one fetish you like another fetish?
KERNER: Well, you know, fetishes are not a problem as long as you`re not affected by it and your partner is not affected by it. There are plenty of, you know, foot fetishes for example -- it`s actually called foot partialism because you`re partial to a certain body part.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No, really, is that what it is?
KERNER: People are partial to a certain body part and feet happen to be the most common. And it might have a lot to do with, you know, men tend to suffer from fetishes more than women. It probably has a lot to do with their first sexual experiences or first erotic memorable experiences. Somebody could have a foot fetish because he was watching his mom putting on panty hose when he was very young and it created a sexual imprint.
BEHAR: So, should you bring booties into the bed?
KERNER: What do you mean?
BEHAR: Like baby booties to remind him. Hey this is -- no.
KERNER: I think, you know, go for a foot massage.
BEHAR: A foot massage.
KERNER: A foot massage with some pressure points and -- you know, I mean my wife might be very happy if I was a foot fetishist because then she`d get a great foot massage.
BEHAR: Every woman would like a foot fetishist for a husband. I think so. Don`t you? We`re going to talk about this just a little bit more when we come back. Put down those vibrators. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with sex therapist Ian Kerner and we`re talking sex resolutions for the New Year. What are you top three resolutions?
KERNER: I think try to have sex once a week. You know, I think too many couples complain that they`re too tired for sex, you know, it falls to the bottom of the to-do list. But when you stop having sex, your relationship really becomes vulnerable. When the sex goes you become roommates and a lot of couples end up cheating.
I think it`s like just the way you go to the gym or make sure you have time to have breakfast with your kids you have to make time for intimacy.
BEHAR: Even if you`re not in the mood. All right. What is the number two?
KERNER: The number two I think is have a positive relationship. I think the difference between couples who succeed and fail both in the bedroom and out of the bedroom is the ability to have positive interactions to each other.
BEHAR: Don`t call each other names and say you`re stupid and you`re an idiot.
KERNER: Don`t call each other names and you know, try to don`t come home and just talk about the bills and your stress. This is an interesting one for this economy. One of my resolutions would be in 2010 I saw so many couples cutting back on vacations, movies, dinners, hiring babysitters. I would say invest a little in your relationship. Go on that date night. Go on that vacation. Because you know what is much more expensive? A divorce.
BEHAR: That`s true.
KERNER: And you know what? If you don`t invest in your relationships -- I would say this tough economy, it`s going to be here. It`s not going away but your relationship has to survive.
BEHAR: Ok. Number three?
KERNER: Number three I would say the intimacy outside of the bedroom. There was a study done that showed that if you hug your partner for 30 seconds or more especially in women it raises oxytocin levels which is the cuddle hormone so just taking time for a 30-second hug with your partner could help to get you in the mood and get you more connected.
BEHAR: Just 30 seconds.
KERNER: Thirty seconds raises oxytocin levels in women. In men it takes closer to a minute.
BEHAR: Should you time it?
KERNER: Well, no. You shouldn`t be like hugging and --
BEHAR: Ok. Here is a Twitter question for you. "How can I help to make my husband last longer in bed? Signed, Mrs. Hefner." No, kidding. How can I help my husband?
KERNER: I want to say it`s almost a whole segment in itself because premature ejaculation is the number one sex issue facing men much more so than erectile disorder. It`s not just a question about what can he do to last longer. We`re going into an age where this issue might become medicalized just as there is Viagra for erectile disorder we might be looking pretty soon at a pill for premature ejaculation.
BEHAR: It`s interesting that they can come up with medication for men, but nothing for women. Why is that?
KERNER: Yes, women -- you know --
BEHAR: Is it because men push it?
KERNER: I think that`s one thing. There`s a lot more research that`s done into male sexuality. But you know, Pfizer spent millions, hundreds of millions of dollars trying to come up with a female Viagra and I think in men desire and arousal is a little more interlinked. So you know, you pump some blood to a guy`s genitals, he sees something sexy and bang he`s starting --
BEHAR: Bang, he`s there.
KERNER: -- he is ready to go.
BEHAR: And with a woman.
KERNER: You know, with a woman I think they found that much more comes down to the relationship components, how she feels about a person, whether or not she likes the person she is about to sleep with, whether she is secure and comfortable.
BEHAR: Do you suggest -- do you suggest that women watch pornography? It`s mostly male kind of pornography.
KERNER: I think it`s something worth exploring as a couple together or on your own.
BEHAR: Or just a romantic movie can do it.
KERNER: What`s that?
BEHAR: A romantic movie can do it. You ever see `Ryan`s Daughter"? That is a hot movie, or the sailor who came in from something with Kris Kristofferson. Sarah Miles -- she was a hot number. Netflix those.
KERNER: I will. I will.
BEHAR: Those will probably do.
KERNER: I will, tonight, with my wife when we take time.
BEHAR: And like, you don`t want to watch I love you, man if you want to have sex.
KERNER: No.
BEHAR: You know what I mean? Watch some of these hot movies.
KERNER: You`re right. Too much of the porn is male-oriented and not female-oriented.
BEHAR: That`s right.
Ok. Thanks very much, Ian.
KERNER: You`re welcome, Joy.
BEHAR: We`ll be back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on the Joy Behar Show, is Hollywood black listing gay actors? We`ll talk to a writer who claims Hollywood won`t even let gay actors play gay roles. Now, back to joy.
BEHAR: Paula Abdul`s new show "Live To Dance" premieres tonight, and the Cookie Abdul wants to set the record straight. She says she`s never been drunk on or off the air. Never. Take a look at what she said on CBS "Morning."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL ABDUL, SINGER: I`ve never had a drinking problem.
Even though I`ve been in this business for quite sometime, I`ve never physically been drunk in my life. I`ve never been drunk in my life. I don`t use recreational drugs, but I am goofy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She`s loopy or goofy? So, should we take her at her word even if she`s been known to slur a few of them? With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news are Howard Bragman, celebrity publicist and founder of "Fifteen Minutes," Jacque Reed, TV and radio journalist, and Jim Florentine, comedian and co-host of "That Metal Show" on VH1 classic. So, Howard, you know, you used to represent Paula.
HOWARD BRAGMAN, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST: Three times in my career.
BEHAR: Yes, as a publicist, right? To your recollection or to your knowledge, was her crazy behavior due to drunkenness at all or anything?
BRAGMAN: Can`t she just be plain old crazy without drugs?
BEHAR: Yes, well --
BRAGMAN: But when I heard that --
BEHAR: The way she acts doesn`t seem like she`s crazy.
BRAGMAN: When I heard that interview, she did parse a word. She said never used recreational drugs. But most of the accusations have been about her abuse of prescription drugs. That wouldn`t surprise me. I don`t know. I`ve never seen her take a drink. I`ve never seen her take a drug, but I have seen her a little --
BEHAR: She`s loopy and goofy. She slurs.
(CROSSTALK)
JIM FLORENTINE, CO-HOST, "THAT METAL SHOW": Look, I`m not saying she does pills, but I saw her hanging out with Howard K. Stern the other day.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Nicole, Anna Nicole? Yes.
FLORENTINE: No, but I mean, look, if I were Paula Abdul and I didn`t have a drinking problem and I was acting that crazy, I would tell everyone I had a drinking problem.
(LAUGHTER)
FLORENTINE: I would.
JACQUE REED, TV & RADIO JOURNALIST: But that`s a good point. I mean, it has to be something, you know? If she`s not doing drugs, if she`s not doing alcohol, prescription drug, it`s something, it`s early dementia, something is going on.
BEHAR: Early dementia?
REED: I don`t know. I mean, what is it that makes her -- to me, you know, why is her brain behaving that way?
BRAGMAN: I`ve known her, you know, 20 years, and this is the same behavior we kind of love Paula walking the tight rope. Whenever she`s on TV, we`re going to say, is she going to fall off or is she going to do something crazy?
BEHAR: Well, I think her appeal as a train wreck is part of the appeal. And now, she is going to do this other show, and isn`t she going to have to act, you know, more loopy on that show to keep people watching because that`s what she is.
BRAGMAN: I don`t think it`s an act. I think the camera rolls long enough, and Paula will become Paula. And I think that`s the beauty of her.
BEHAR: And your theory is that it`s prescription drugs?
BRAGMAN: No. I didn`t say that.
BEHAR: But what is it?
FLORENTINE: When her pharmacist says it carpal tunnel syndrome from - -
(LAUGHTER)
FLORENTINE: That could be a problem.
REED: She says she`s goofy. She says she`s goofy, but I don`t think you want to be goofy loopy. You want to be goofy cute like Tina Fey.
BEHAR: Yes. Goofy is like carrot top.
REED: Yes, like -
BEHAR: Goofy is bozo.
BRAGMAN: She`s got fans. When Paul and I got on this very public fight that`s, you know, captured for all eternity on YouTube. I got death threats. She`s got some amazing fans out there that, well, amazing in a sick way, but they love her.
BEHAR: Aha. But you got death threats?
BRAGMAN: I got death threats because Paula and I got in a little disagreement.
REED: I love her. I`m a huge - I don`t --
(CROSSTALK)
REED: Because it was a good show. I don`t know about this new show because if it`s not a good show and it`s rumored not to be a good show, I don`t care how loopy she comes off.
BEHAR: Yes.
REED: It`s not going to work.
BEHAR: That show jumped the shark since Paula is gone, in my opinion, and Simon, forget about it. I mean, J.Lo is a good singer, but --
REED: This is not what it was.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s talk about this story. Snooki`s new book, "A Shore Thing," hits stores today. And from the excerpts I`ve seen, she`s going to be the next Charles Dickens. This is what she writes. Quote. "He had an OK body. Not fat at all and naturally toned abs. She could pour a shot of tequila down his belly and slurp it out of his naval without getting splashed in the face." See what I mean? That`s kind of -- that`s so tale of two cities, isn`t it? So, what kind of publisher thinks this is a good idea to do?
BRAGMAN: This is Snooki. This is her brand. I mean, it blows you away because, you know, when you write a book, you get to write your own history. Is this really once you written for all posterity and her fart remarks in the book --
BEHAR: No, I wouldn`t even quote those because I can`t stand scatological discussions, but she does go there. Jim, have you read the book?
FLORENTINE: No. I mean, look, who`s going to read the book. Well, some of the media think this is going to be a best seller in this book. I bet against it. I mean, who watches "Jersey Shore" that can actually read?
BEHAR: That`s true.
BRAGMAN: Jingle owners, Jersey Shore, not a bog crossover there.
REED: This is a popular show, but "The Situation" had a book. It bombed, you know --
BEHAR: "The Situation" has a book. You want me to read something about his? Yes. He`s talking about a certain girl he calls a grenade.
(LAUGHTER)
REED: Yes, those are unattractive girls.
BEHAR: He says 9 out of 10 times the grenade is a grenade because she`s ugly and fat as opposed to hideously looking and thin like him. She`s mad at you and at life because everyone is more interested in her hot friend. How long before Oprah`s book club comes knocking?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Jim, who`s the greater literary heavyweight here, Snooki or "The Situation"?
FLORENTINE: Both are bad. I mean, "Jersey Shore" has butchered the English language worse than my Chinese delivery guy.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. Now --
FLORENTINE: He only sold 4,000 books.
BEHAR: That`s right.
FLORENTINE: That`s pretty pathetic.
BEHAR: He sold 4,000 books. How many do you think Snooki will sell?
BRAGMAN: She`s going to beat him. She may hit 6,000 or 7,000. She may go crazy.
REED: A lot of people are surprised that she`s a reader. She said she read "Twilight" and the book "Dear John."
BRAGMAN: That doesn`t make you a reader.
REED: This is what led up to the big -- now she`s an author.
FLORENTINE: But this is a novel, too. Like, I would read like her life story. I want to know why she is the way she is. She`s on the cover. She`s on the cover. That`s actual size the picture.
(LAUGHTER)
FLORENTINE: No, but I do want to see like why is she like this? She grew up in like Poughkeepsie or something like that. Like, what was her background that she is just a complete mess?
BEHAR: Well, she`s told us a little. She`s adopted. She`s from Chile. These people adopted her. That`s her story.
FLORENTINE: All right.
REED: And the main character is based on her.
BEHAR: Yes. But if they only sold 4,000 books, maybe they should stick to what they know which is what?
FLORENTINE: Grenades.
REED: Hot dogs. Tanning.
BRAGMAN: Your manager and your agent come to you and say, Snooki, great news. I got 300,000 from, you know, XYZ publisher, and I`m going to get you a co-author, and all you got to do is talk to her for three hours, and we`ll get a book out of it and you go, OK.
BEHAR: Yes. She didn`t write the book.
BRAGMAN: I`d be surprised.
REED: Did you read it?
BEHAR: I read these two parts. That`s all. OK. Now --
FLORENTINE: If you were the co-author, would you admit it?
(LAUGHTER)
REED: No.
BEHAR: Absolutely not. Witness protection for that one. OK. Disney star, Selena Gomez, has been getting death threats just like you ever since photos of her and teen heartthrob, Justin Bieber kissing and cuddling hit the internet. Are you shocked, Jacque, on how violent some of these girls can be? It`s all girls.
REED: Yes. And these are girls that are raised on Disney. I`m surprised that they would be this upset and violently upset about this relationship if there is a relationship in the first place.
BEHAR: What type of girls are these, Jim?
REED: Crazy.
FLORENTINE: These girls really think they have a shot at Justin Bieber? Like, you know, a 16-year-old pimply kid that lives in a trailer in Alabama, he might date me?
BEHAR: I think that is part of the fantasy.
REED: But this goes too far. I mean, I think that this suggests something is wrong with these girls.
FLORENTINE: Look, you got to give Justin Bieber a credit. The kid is 16 years old. He`s already been on the best Disney ride of all time.
BEHAR: Which is?
BRAGMAN: Salina Gomez.
FLORENTINE: Salina Gomez.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: He`s a virgin. The boy is a virgin. Stop it. He`s a virgin.
BRAGMAN: I imagine that if he got undress, it would be like a Ken doll and there`s sort of a little plastic part there that`s sort of amorphous.
BEHAR: But what is his talent exactly?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Is he a really good singer?
FLORENTINE: His hair-do.
BEHAR: We saw it`s the hair.
BRAGMAN: You know, we were talking about that every generation has a David Cassidy or one of the, you know, --
FLORENTINE: Menudo.
BRAGMAN: Menudo, these sort of, you know, gender nonspecific neutered kids.
BEHAR: I see. All right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Whatever. We have time for one more? OK. Finally, when A- listers like Reese Witherspoon and LeAnn Rimes get engaged to men with smaller pay checks who pays for the rock? Who pays for it? You know. They`ve got this, big, big ring, these girls. And they`re marrying or getting engaged to guys who are like, you know, regular guys like Jim Florentine.
BRAGMAN: All right. One of three instances. Mama says that`s the ring I want. Here is the credit card. I`m paying for it. I get a lot of airline miles. Number two, the guy has more money than you think he does like Eddie Cibrian has been on successful shows. I assume he`s got a little money. Or number three, there`s a little secret call we make to the diamond people or the sapphire people --
BEHAR: Or take up the jewel (ph). He`s in jail, isn`t he?
BRAGMAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: But you can often get deals on these things and then their name sort of leaks out that that`s where the ring was bought.
BEHAR: Is it old fashioned, Jacque, to assume the man is going to buy the ring?
REED: I think it is old fashioned, but I think it`s something that should stick. I think that`s just one of those traditions that should --
FLORENTINE: I don`t think so. Come on.
REED: No, no. Because to me, if your man can`t afford a four carat, five carat ring, then that`s not what you should get. You`re marrying the man you get. Don`t try to -- and what may in, I don`t want to be with a man that`s going to let me buy the ring.
BEHAR: That`s right. I go along with that.
FLORENTINE: I guess, we`re not getting together. I actually just got engaged. I did.
BEHAR: You did?
FLORENTINE: Yes.
BEHAR: To a woman, really?
FLORENTINE: Yes, to a woman, yes.
REED: Did you buy the ring?
FLORENTINE: Yes, I did and they have this whole theory about three- month salary you have to spend on the ring.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
FLORENTINE: But I got out on a technicality because they didn`t say which three months. So, I always take most of the summer off, so those are the three months.
(LAUGHTER)
FLORENTINE: So, she got a nice ring from Wal-Mart.
BEHAR: OK. Well congratulations to you.
FLORENTINE: Thank you.
BEHAR: When is the wedding?
FLORENTINE: Like two years. She`s already planning. She`s like what about the invitations? Like, I don`t know. Send them out.
(LAUGHTER)
FLORENTINE: You want to go look at the place? I`m like, no. I`m going to be there in a year and a half or two years.
(LAUGHTER)
FLORENTINE: It`s a girl thing now.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. You`re a really good catch, Jim.
FLORENTINE: You want to look at the room? I`m like it`s not going to be chairs in there. And booze.
BEHAR: It`s not the same anymore. People sleep together before. It`s no fun anymore to get married. It`s a bore.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s nothing. Well, they (INAUDIBLE), I know. Thanks everybody. OK. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We met at UCLA. I was a resident and Jules had an emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My tongue was numb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s not nice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s not nice. You`ve told that story a hundred thousand times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Julianne Moore and Annette Benning play a lesbian couple in the hit movie "The Kids Are All Right," but should those roles have been played by actual lesbians or in Hollywood are out actors also out of work? And if so, why? Here now to debate this are Ramin Setoodeh, senior writer for "Newsweek" and contributor to the Daily Beast and back with me is the fabulous celebrity publicist, Howard Bragman who works with gay celebrities, right?
BRAGMAN: Right.
BEHAR: OK.
BRAGMAN: And some straight ones.
BEHAR: And some straight ones, right, of course. Julianne Moore and Annette Benning are an example of what we`re talking about here, but there`s also Jim Carey and Ewan McGregor now in a movie called "I Love You, Philip Morris," which is about a gay couple, I guess. Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal in "Brokeback Mountain", Tom Hanks in "Philadelphia."
These are all straight guys playing gay. Stanley Tucci in the "Devil Wears Prada," Phillip Seymour Hoffman as "Truman Capote." What is going on here, Ramin?
RAMIN SETOODEH, NEWSWEEK: Yes. And, you know, I don`t mean to take away from any of those performances. They were all --
BEHAR: They were all very good.
SETOODEH: Very good performances. Many of those people have won Oscars, but I wrote a piece questioning why is it every time there`s a gay character in a movie, they gave role movie, Hollywood casts, a straight actor to play that part.
BEHAR: Well, why?
SETOODEH: I don`t know. I wrote a piece out of that?
BRAGMAN: Who are you going to use? Who are you going to use? Give me a list of gay movie stars who will open a movie, who will be able to sell a movie that the studios go, OK, I`m going to London with this movie. I`m going to go to Germany because you need to sell a movie internationally now.
BEHAR: But are you telling me that a great, gorgeous, good actor who happens to be gay can`t be a movie star? Isn`t a movie star level?
BRAGMAN: I`m telling you that movie stars have not come out yet. In TV, it`s different. But --
BEHAR: So, maybe, some of these are actually gay that I mentioned?
BRAGMAN: I don`t know. I never slept with any of them.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Oh, yes you have.
BRAGMAN: Well, I`m not kissing and telling. But, no, but what I`m saying is we don`t have a pool to choose from of gay actors. We do in the TV world, but certainly not in the film world at this point.
SETOODEH: And that was the point of the piece wondering and questioning why that is. And if it`s a sort of form of -- I think it`s a form of homophobia in Hollywood, where they don`t allow gay actors to play gay characters and they don`t allow gay actors to play straight characters either which is I wrote a piece about that last year that got a lot of --
BEHAR: You got into a lot of trouble.
SETOODEH: Yes. That got me into trouble --
BEHAR: Because you said what? Tell us what you said --
(CROSSTALK)
SETOODEH: And I wrote a piece asking why is it that, as audience members, we don`t accept it when an openly gay actor plays a straight character.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s because people want to fantasize about a guy kissing a girl, for example, that he`s really interested? That women do?
SETOODEH: Yes. Women who go and see a mainstream movie --
BEHAR: Yes.
SETOODEH: Of course, they want to fantasize that they can in some world they`ll be with Brad Pitt.
BEHAR: I remember a movie I saw when I was a kid with Rock Hudson, and it was, I don`t know, Dorothy Malone or somebody, and we were watching it with my aunts and then birds came in and knocked her off her seat or something and then she fell into his arms and he kissed her very passionately, and my aunt said, God bless those birds, OK? Now, I don`t think she would have said that if she thought Rock Hudson was gay. She might have said oh, he`s playing a part here.
BRAGMAN: You know what, no, it`s paging (ph). I don`t know if you saw (INAUDIBLE) "30 Rock" but have you seen Sean Jackson (ph)who is --
BEHAR: Broadway star.
BRAGMAN: Broadway star becoming a TV star? He`s playing straight on "Glee" while he`s gay on --
BEHAR: OK. We`re not onto TV yet, because TV I think is a whole another --
BRAGMAN: Don`t undermine the audiences. Young girls look at somebody who`s sexy. Sexy is sexy. And they don`t have the same hang-ups that older people do.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know about that. Well, maybe, that`s true. I`m older. I don`t care. I don`t care. You know, I`m into brick -- I`m a big anglophile. The bricks have gay straight, they don`t care and nobody cares about it. I mean, I`m watching British stuff and you don`t know if they`re straight or gay.
SETOODEH: Even Colin Firth is British. They went to Colin Firth to play gay when they did "a Single Man" last year.
BEHAR: I know. Well, that`s Rupert Everett`s issue. He says that it`s a bad thing that you shouldn`t come out. Then so as Richard Chamberlain. He said that gay actors should stay in the closet. He just said that in the advocate.
BRAGMAN: He is 300 years old, and Rupert Everett, if he hadn`t had so much plastic surgery, his mother wouldn`t recognize him. You think that might have hurt his career?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And Richard Chamberlain, Father Ralph is not 203 years old.
BRAGMAN: You know what, it`s a generational thing. Young people, I have people come in, I`ve taken, you know, more than a dozen people out of the closet all the time, and you look at, I don`t know if you know who Amber Heard is. She starred in two movies. She`s openly lesbian. She`s starred in two huge movies next year with Jonny Depp, Harrison Ford, and she is out. And it`s
BEHAR: But these are women. Isn`t it different for females? What do you think about women?
SETOODEH: I think it`s different for females because a guy can go and they can fantasize about being with a lesbian.
BEHAR: Exactly.
SETOODEH: But even with "The Kids Are All Right," you mentioned that great performances by Annette Benning and Julianne Moore, but why couldn`t they have cast -- it was a lesbian director.
BEHAR: Who? Who would they cast -- his point is there aren`t any big movie stars who are out.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: TV star. Movie star, movie star level, I don`t know if there are any.
SETOODEH: Well, and that`s, why is that?
BEHAR: I don`t know the answer to that because it`s either that they`re shut out. They don`t want to come out, they`re in the closet. So, we don`t know they`re gay.
BRAGMAN: The system doesn`t support them coming out.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: You know, They`re making too much money. Everybody is making their 10 percent. Nobody says let`s come out and see how it plays. No. They like the money in the bank.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know what to say. What about Rosie and Ellen? We`re talking a little bit about television. Rosie and Ellen, both of them came out after they were successful. Do you think that if they had come out before they were successful that they would have made it?
BRAGMAN: You know, I can`t predict what can happen.
BEHAR: What do you think?
SETOODEH: You know, I think that when Ellen came out of the closet, her show was canceled one year later, and it was, you know, what, 1994?
BEHAR: You mean her sitcom.
SETOODEH: Her sitcom was cancelled a year later. I mean, I think it helps that they`re on a talk show because women don`t need to watch them. You know, it`s different. They`re not playing a part on the talk show.
BRAGMAN: But again, Cheyenne Jackson, Neil Patrick Harris. TV is breaking ground.
BEHAR: Chris Colfer on "Glee."
BRAGMAN: Chris is playing gay.
BEHAR: Playing gay and "Modern Family" has Jesse Tyler Ferguson.
SETOODEH: None of those people, though, are the stars of the show. None of these people are the reason you watch the show. They`re all supporting characters.
BEHAR: In "Modern Family," there are only one or two stars.
SETOODEH: Yes, there are six -- it`s an ensemble show, but it`s not like he is the lead.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
BRAGMAN: The "Modern Family" is where we want to be. We have the gay guy playing gay. We have a straight guy playing gay. In both cases, we have the best actors who got those parts.
BEHAR: All right. We`ll be back in a minute with some more on this discussion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing whether gay actors are shut out of Hollywood. You know, what do you tell guys who are gay and they play it straight? Do you tell them to come out or not for their careers? You`re a publicist.
BRAGMAN: I really got to get into their head and find out, number one, if they`re ready to come out and are willing to take the fear and risk that comes with it. You have to understand in this society between cell phones and text messages and show, everything is so transparent. If you`re living the gay life, you`re going to be outed, anyway.
BEHAR: That`s the part is different. I mean, when Rock Hudson was in the movies, nobody knew about it. In fact, confidential magazine which was used to out people, they kept it quiet. Even there, the people were black mailed by -- all these things that went on in those days can`t be done anymore. It`s really kind of sad in a way if a person is a great actor, why does his sexuality or her sexuality have to be an issue? You`re supposed to disappear into the character.
BRAGMAN: But you know what, you see every actor on the cover of "People" magazine holding up their babies with their wedding photos. My team wants to get in on this too. We want our part and to be treated equally, and it`s changing. I mean, last year more actors and celebrities came out than any year in history, and it`s accelerating. We`re making grade strides.
BEHAR: OK. I like this little clip we have from "Glee." Let`s watch with Chris Colfer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS COLFER, ACTOR: I`m talking to you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girls` locker room is next door.
COLFER: What is your problem?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me?
COLFER: What are you so scared of?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Besides you sneaking in here to peek at my junk?
COLFER: Oh, yes, every straight guy`s nightmare. All us gays are secretly out to molest you. Well, guess what, ham hock, you`re not my type.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that right?
COLFER: Yes. I don`t take chubby boys is what too much who are going to be bald by the time they`re 30.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s kind of nice to see that real a gay kids taking charge like that, right?
BRAGMAN: Great. And the other kid kissed him which they didn`t show here was even better because it was non-stereotypical. And to mix it up, brilliant.
BEHAR: I have to say straight guys that I know who watch two men kissing, sometimes, they have to look away. I`ve seen it. I`ve been sitting with straight guys. They see two men kissing, they won`t watch it.
BRAGMAN: Tell them to get over it.
BEHAR: I know.
(LAUGHTER)
BRAGMAN: Really.
BEHAR: But if two women are kissing, they`re riveted. They`re riveted.
BRAGMAN: Because in every porn (ph), they`ve ever watched --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They just don`t mind it. And I think the lesbian issue is completely different from the gay male issue.
BRAGMAN: I agree.
BEHAR: I think that you could have lesbian actresses and no one would pay any attention to any of this.
BRAGMAN: Yes, they think it`s hot.
BEHAR: They think it`s hot. They also think it`s going to, that they could change them. That`s another thing straight guys fantasize. Oh, she`s a lesbian. Let me have five minutes with her.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It`s true.
SETOODEH: How do you know so much about this, Joy?
BEHAR: How do I know so much? Because I live with a straight guy. I know what`s going on. OK. Thank you, guys, very much. I love this topic. Thank you for watching. Goodnight, everybody.
END
