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Joy Behar Page
Jackson Death Hearing; Celeb Beauty Secrets
Aired January 10, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, key witnesses testify that Michael Jackson`s doctor frantically hid evidence once the king of pop died. Now Conrad Murray`s defense is getting ready to argue that Jacko killed himself.
Then celebrity supermoms Denise Richards and Ali Landry stop by to discuss what it`s like to juggle motherhood and the spotlight.
Plus a priest leaves the Catholic Church after falling in love with a woman. We`ll have his full story.
That and more starting right now.
LISA RINNA, HLN GUEST HOST: Good evening, everyone. I`m Lisa Rinna sitting in for Joy, who will be back tomorrow from Las Vegas. But tonight, we begin with Michael Jackson and the start of the second week of hearings to determine whether or not Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray should stand trial in connection with his death.
Here now with more guests Diane Dimond, special correspondent for "Entertainment Tonight" and author of "Be Careful Who You Love: Inside the Michael Jackson Case"; and Dr. Cathleen London, board certified family physician.
But first, I want to go to Mike Walters, assignment manager at TMZ. Hey, Mike.
MIKE WALTERS, ASSIGNMENT MANAGER, TMZ: Hey, Lisa. How are you?
RINNA: I`m great. How are you doing?
WALTERS: Very good.
RINNA: What is the latest? What can you tell us?
WALTERS: Well, some really important stuff came out this morning, Lisa. In the hearing they had a pharmacist from Las Vegas who owns the pharmacy that Dr. Conrad Murray was getting all of his Propofol from, the alleged Propofol that he was giving to Michael Jackson. Now the interesting part is in three months leading up to Michael`s death Dr. Murray ordered 255 bottles of Propofol and some of them being 100 milliliters, which is a lot of Propofol, to his house here in Santa Monica that he owned with his girlfriend.
And that`s the Propofol, they think, he was giving to Michael Jackson. Remember, Murray claims he didn`t give him very much. This pattern there trying to prove shows Murray giving Michael Propofol a lot and a truckload of it.
RINNA: Well, that is new information and seems quite damaging, I would think. Murray`s mistresses have also testified. What more do you know about that?
WALTERS: Well, what`s interesting is Dr. Murray was sending all of this Propofol to a woman named Nicole Alvarez`s home, who is his girlfriend, who he has a baby with, who lives in Santa Monica. So she will hit the stand on Friday basically saying yes, he did send FedEx packages to my house. I didn`t know what was in them. I had nothing to do with it.
But I think what they`re showing is Dr. Conrad Murray was not responsible as a doctor here. He`s sending drugs to some house in Santa Monica, that he`s giving Propofol to Michael Jackson not in a hospital setting; he`s doing this sort of not in the normal guidelines that a medical doctor would. That`s what they`re trying to prove.
Also what`s interesting is, when Michael died, they`re trying to show he was on the phone with another girlfriend in Houston, Texas, and that phone call was logged and they presented it in court. Basically she heard some of this happen, the commotion as he found Michael Jackson.
So I think what they`re trying to show is there was a long period of time before -- when Murray found Michael Jackson not breathing to when he actually called 911 and that also can be pretty damaging to him if they can prove that.
RINNA: Wow, who else are we expected to hear from this week, Mike?
WALTERS: Well, they`re bringing some people out from Texas. They haven`t said exactly who, but I`m guessing it`s going to be some of the people that he was on the phone with that morning when Michael died. He called his girlfriend. He called several people at his office in Texas.
And remember, TMZ broke that story back then that two people from his office in Texas went to a storage unit he had and removed a bunch of stuff. So that could become really interesting and important in this case to see what it is that Dr. Murray wanted to get out of his office and his storage unit right away once Michael Jackson died.
RINNA: Wow Mike, that`s -- thank you so much. Right now I`m going to have our panel join us.
Dr. London, we hear that this week it`s going to be focused on the science of what killed Michael Jackson. Tell us thus about that.
DR. CATHLEEN LONDON, BOARD CERTIFIED FAMILY PHYSICIAN: Well, it takes a long time to figure out exactly what drugs are in someone`s system and where in the system. Propofol is a drug that has a very, very short half- life, meaning it doesn`t stay in your body very long. Once it`s given, when we use it for anesthesia, it needs to be given by continuous infusion.
So when you`re trying to say what actually caused death, they have to look at -- they`re looking at the saturation in the brain tissue amongst other places. And given the amounts being given over what period of time, what does that do to him, combined with what other things were in his system already.
He`s admitted to giving him a benzodiazepine, which is another kind of sedative. And they work together and, you know, are morphodes and suppress even more. They suppress breathing more and make you less responsive. So all of it is quite, quite damaging.
DIANE DIMOND, AUTHOR, "BE CAREFUL WHO YOU LOVE": You know, Lisa, on his nightstand, when the paramedics got there, there were more than a dozen prescription bottles, seven different sedatives. Michael Jackson, I can tell you from researching him for a long, long time has a history of abusing drugs, prescription drugs specifically. So, no telling how much; we haven`t learned yet from these proceedings exactly how much of what was in his system --
RINNA: Do you think that will come out this week?
DIMOND: I would think so especially with the scientific testing.
LONDON: You know, but regardless, he`s not the first famous person that we`re hearing about abusing medication.
DIMOND: Right.
LONDON: He hired this physician essentially to keep an eye on him at night and help him sleep. Now, I`m not going to get into how bizarre that is and using it outside of a hospital setting and that is not within the standard of medical care.
RINNA: Because it`s not normal, is it.
LONDON: No, it is not.
RINNA: Do you know people that do this, that administer Propofol at home?
LONDON: There are cases of anesthesiologists abusing it, but it`s abuse. It is not using it in a normal way. It is all over the product labeling. It is only to be used in a setting where there`s continuous monitoring happening.
RINNA: Let me ask you this. Is there any way that Michael Jackson could have injected or put his own IV in of Propofol?
LONDON: No, absolutely not. First of all, even if he were wide awake, it is something you have to know how to do. Let`s start from there.
But we already know he`s admitted to giving him the benzodiazepine, the previous sedative. We know there was some Propofol already. So there is no way. There is no way he would have been lucid enough, that he could have gotten it together to do that.
But the whole thing that bothers me here is say we get past the bizarreness of all this, that if you`re going to hire somebody -- this person was hired to keep an eye on him. But that`s not what he did. He was on the phone with other people. He wasn`t -- there was no monitoring there at all of any sort.
So even if you`re going to allow this bizarre case could potentially happen, do it the right way.
DIMOND: And remember, this man is a cardiologist, he`s not an anesthesiologist. He shouldn`t be administering this at all anywhere --
LONDON: Exactly.
DIMOND: -- not in a hospital, not in a home. And this proceeding this week and last week was to -- is to try to figure out is there enough evidence to hold him over for a trial? I would say already we`re seeing --
RINNA: Are you saying there will be a trial?
DIMOND: Oh, yes. Without a doubt there will be a trial. And it will all hinge on who the jury is as to what`s going to happen because I don`t think it`s a slam dunk that they`ll find him guilty.
LONDON: Because there`s a difference between being held by a medical board and what is the standard of medical care versus being held on manslaughter.
DIMOND: That`s right.
LONDON: I think that`s really the difference. We all know this is not the standard of medical care. That`s quite clear. Beyond that, that exactly is going to depend on what a jury will say.
RINNA: Now, also Diane, do you think that the defense will keep quiet and not show their hand during the preliminary?
DIMOND: That is a very good question.
RINNA: Why, thank you, Diane.
DIMOND: I swear that`s a very good question.
RINNA: Why, thanks.
DIMOND: You notice that they didn`t even give an opening statement. I think this Texas attorney is a very sharp guy. I met him in court in Las Vegas with Dr. Murray at one time. He`s very short, Dr. Murray`s very tall, but he`s really smart.
And I think you`re right. I think he`s sitting back saying all right, the state hasn`t let us know what the evidence is, we`re going to listen. And then he`s going to come up with one heck of a defense. I`m not sure it`s going to be that he administered his own Propofol.
RINNA: I know. I wonder what it could be. Do you have any ideas?
LONDON: Well, you know, if he was hired to do this, whatever else. But again, how do you get beyond that not monitoring, this long delay, this being on the phone. There`s a pattern --
(CROSSTALK)
RINNA: Do you think he was distracted with his mistresses?
LONDON: Yes. And that was shown just not that day. That was shown too that there`s a pattern is my recollection from the testimony.
RINNA: And there are phone records to prove it.
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: Right. They`re already in evidence. The bottom line is this: Michael Jackson abused his body for many, many years, not only with drugs but with alcohol. We heard about at the criminal trial and with anorexia. He didn`t eat right.
And so, that is going to be put in the jury`s mind, and they`re going to look at this guy and they`re going to say, does he deserve to go down. Certainly take his license away but is he guilty of manslaughter?
RINNA: Time will tell. Thank you. Thank you so much.
DIMOND: Sure.
RINNA: All right. We`ll be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, a controversial miniseries about the Kennedy family is canceled before it even airs. Were members of the Kennedy family responsible for the History Channel pulling the plug?
And Father Alberto Cutie drops by to talk about leaving the Catholic Church after falling in love with one of his parishioners.
Now back to Joy`s guest host, Lisa Rinna.
RINNA: Every woman feels the pressure to look good whether you live in Hollywood or not, don`t I know it. Juggling a career and children all while staying fit is a difficult task. But I know two women who are great at it and willing to divulge some of their tricks of the trade.
Joining me: my friend actress Denise Richards is here; along with my other friend, actress Ali Landry. Hi, girls.
DENISE RICHARDS, ACTRESS: Hi, Lisa.
ALI LANDRY, ACTRESS: Hi, Lisa.
RINNA: I`m so excited to see you. You look gorgeous, of course.
LANDRY: I know. I know.
RICHARDS: Thank you.
RINNA: What a cute sandwich I have. Look at this -- gorgeous sandwich. All right, girls --
LANDRY: You`re so sweet.
RINNA: We`re here to divulge some of the tricks of trade. Some of the secrets.
So let`s start with what do you eat? What do you really eat? Let`s start with you, Denise.
RICHARDS: I found that eating several meals throughout the day has helped me keep up my metabolism. I eat pretty healthy. I do eat three small meals and then snacks throughout the day. Eating with my kids between 5:00 or 6:00 at night as my dinner was really great in keeping my weight down as opposed to eating late at night.
RINNA: So do you feel that you just eat in moderation, or do you follow a special diet or just a little bit of anything, you know, throughout the day?
RICHARDS: I definitely eat in moderation. I don`t deprive myself of something that I really want. But for the most part I do -- I carry a little cooler with lots of snacks. I carry, you know, yogurt --
RINNA: You really do that? You really do that?
RICHARDS: I do.
RINNA: Because I heard that you did that. I was like, she does? I didn`t know she did that.
RICHARDS: I do. I keep -- I have a cooler full of food.
RINNA: God, you are disciplined, girl. For sure.
RICHARDS: Well, you know what? When we`re driving around L.A., you get hungry, then you`re starving, then you tend to eat something that`s all junk. So this way I eat throughout the day so that I`m not starving all the time and to keep it healthy. But I love my chips and guacamole and my ice cream and stuff like that. I definitely don`t deprive myself.
RINNA: I love that. Ali, let me ask you this, do you feel the pressure being in this business to look a certain way, or would you do what you do anyway if you weren`t in this business? Does that make sense?
LANDRY: Yes, it does. I do think of course there`s always that underlying pressure being in the entertainment business, but I`ve never been that stick-skinny girl. You know? That`s not my body type. It never will be. It would be very unhealthy for me if I was.
For me, as I got older and especially after I had a baby, just really embracing my body and just eating healthy; you know, a healthier lifestyle. I`m sort of like Denise, I do -- what has worked really well for me is what I`ve kind of started the past year. I do a shake in the morning. Because for me it`s getting the baby off to preschool and there`s so many things going on in the morning. I get my protein, I could my greens, I can add, you know, flax seed oil, fiber, whatever. That gets me going, stabilizing my blood sugar, helps with my metabolism. Everything.
And then I`m sort of the same. I keep snacks in my bag, in my car. And I really kind of eat throughout the day.
RINNA: All right. Denise, let`s talk about exercise. I know you love Pilates.
RICHARDS: I do.
RINNA: What seems to work the best for your body? Is it Pilates?
RICHARDS: Definitely -- Pilates works the best for me and also taking who you turned me on to is Louie Van Amstel`s dance class. Something that`s so fun. It`s a great cardio workout. I fell in love with dancing from him --
RINNA: And don`t we love Louie so much. I love him.
RICHARDS: I love Louie. Yes and it`s changed my body tremendously combining the two.
RINNA: Now, you just tweeted that you hadn`t worked out --
RICHARDS: I did.
RINNA: That you hadn`t worked out for two weeks.
RICHARDS: That`s true.
RINNA: Did you feel pressure to get back? Sorry to divulge your secret.
RICHARDS: No, it`s fine. Twitter`s -- you know, people can read that.
RINNA: I guess they can, can`t they? You divulged it yourself.
RICHARDS: No, over the holidays, I definitely enjoyed myself and had fun with my girls on vacation, and didn`t exercise on vacation. But yes, now that it`s the New Year, it is nice to feel good and get back into my routine.
It`s not just also physically but mentally. I love to work out. I feel great afterwards. It is great to get back into the routine.
RINNA: Ok girls. Let`s now move to skin care. You both have the most beautiful skin. And I think we all know how important it is to take care of your skin. Ali, what do you do?
LANDRY: Look, we`ve had this conversation, girls, you know this, many times. And we`re always trying to find what is the secret? Because to be honest, we`re not getting any younger and we`re just really --
(CROSSTALK)
RINNA: We`re not?
LANDRA: No, we`re not Lisa. We are not. We`re trying to hold on to dear life. But for me, water does work really great. That`s something simple that everybody can do. It`s really changed my skin, really kind of balanced out that oiliness, you know, when it gets really dry or kind of flaky.
But I do take care of my skin. I have my skin care regimen at home. I go to a facialist. I haven`t started -- and you and I -- we`ve all talked about this. The laser treatments or the peels, but it`s something that I think I would definitely be open to. I just have to look into it a little bit more.
RINNA: And Denise, tell me about your skin care regime.
RICHARDS: Ever since I was a teenager I`ve used sun screen on my skin every day. I think that`s been a tremendous help. But I`m also obsessed with Dr. Lancer`s skin care products.
RINNA: Love him.
RICHARDS: Every day. Love him, too.
RICHARDS: And twice a year I do a treatment called (INAUDIBLE) that I get in his office.
RINNA: I do, too. I do it too.
RICHARDS: That`s the best, right?
RINNA: Yes.
RICHARDS: It takes off any tiny dark spot, it smoothes the skin, shrinks the pores. I swear by that treatment that I do at his office and all his products I love.
LANDRY: If anybody saw your face, both of you guys, your skin, if I haven`t done that treatment yet. But you guys have told me about it. But you have zero pores. It`s like smooth.
RINNA: It`s the Cosmoland.
LANDRY: It works. It works.
RINNA: Cosmoland (ph) is for -- Cosmo and cosmoland just to tell our viewers, it is a mask that they put on, and it basically lightens melasma (ph), I had a terrible case of melasma after having both of my children. And it lightens it, I guess it tightens your pores. I think it`s the best thing I`ve ever found.
RICHARDS: I do, too.
RINNA: And I think Denise, you could agree.
RICHARDS: Just amazing. I love it.
RINNA: Ali, you don`t need it. You really don`t need it. Your skin is wonderful.
LANDRY: But you guys talk so much about this thing, I don`t have the melasma, but of course, I do have the sunspots and the redness and it`s kind of uneven. And I look at you guys and I`m like, Oh my gosh, maybe I need this.
RINNA: No, you don`t. But I found I had spots that I didn`t have when I did my first treatment. There you go.
RICHARDS: That was like well, I didn`t want those spots.
RINNA: It`s true. I have spots under my spots.
RICHARDS: You are flawless, Ali.
LANDRY: No. It`s covered with concealer, trust me.
RINNA: And thank God for good makeup. Girls, don`t go away. We`ll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RINNA: All right.
I`m back discussing beauty secrets with the gorgeous Denise Richards and Ali Landry. Girls, all right, sleep. How do you get it, with kids, all the things we have to do? What do you do?
LANDRY: For sleep?
RICHARDS: It doesn`t happen for me. Sorry. It doesn`t happen.
LANDRY: Me neither.
RINNA: Not at all? How do you look like that and not get any sleep?
LANDRY: You have no idea how much concealer I have under these eyes.
RINNA: Well, what concealer is it because we all need to get it.
LANDRY: The thickest they make. Dermablend. It`s Dermablend.
RINNA: Dermablend -- ok, good to know. What about you, Denise? You are a single mom. Which is the hardest job in the world, I think. How do you do it?
RICHARDS: Yes. It`s hard. I have many sleepless nights. I`m not a heavy sleeper anyway. I`m a light sleeper. I have terrible insomnia half the time. I just learned to function on very little sleep. When I get a full night, I`m so grateful for it.
RINNA: Ok. One more question. If you were on a desert island and you could only take one beauty product, what would it be, Denise?
RICHARDS: Well, sun screen. Aside from that, it would have to be my lip gloss.
RINNA: Any particular brand?
RICHARDS: Of lip gloss?
RINNA: Yes.
RICHARDS: I like Nars. Nars is good.
RINNA: Ok. Now, how about, you Ali.
LANDRY: For me it would be hands-down concealer. I`ve always had, you know, dark circles since I was a little girl. If anybody knows a great treatment for that, please call me, tweet me, something. I really need help. And especially the past month or so, you know, it`s just my baby gets up all hour of the night to have conversations with me. So sleep has been --
RINNA: Wait a second. Wait a second. Your baby`s getting up and having conversations with you all hours of the night?
LANDRY: Yes, all night.
RINNA: What can we do about that? We need like a children`s doctor on here to figure that out.
LANDRY: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
RINNA: You have to say bedtime, baby. Time to go to sleep.
LANDRY: I do, Lisa. I do. But she`s like across the hall. She`s like, mommy, I want to change my pajamas. Or mommy, turn on the light in the hallway. And this is like at 3:00 in the morning. It kills me. This has been the past few days but she`s three and a half. I don`t know if it`s a phase. You guys, your kids are older, please help. I don`t know what`s going on.
RINNA: Denise, what do you think? Denise, what is it?
(CROSSTALK)
RICHARDS: I think it`s a phase. I think that she`s going through a phase.
LANDRY: I hope so.
RINNA: I would lose my mind. I would probably throw my kids outside. I`m going to get it for that. I would probably like throw them outside and close the door. I would not be able to handle that, I swear.
LANDRY: I know because when you`re kind really starting to go to sleep. Then it`s like, mommy. Oh, gosh. Yes.
RINNA: Well, God bless you.
RICHARDS: Lisa, what about you with your sleep? How do you get sleep?
RINNA: I need eight hours and I`m a grizzly bear about it. Everybody knows. Maybe I`m very selfish, but everyone in my house knows momma needs her sleep and you better leave her alone. Maybe you need to just have an iron fist and say I`m getting my sleep now.
Oh, I`m crazy, you know I am.
LANDRY: But we hear how important it is.
RINNA: We do.
LANDRY: We really do hear how important it is.
RICHARDS: True.
LANDRY: -- and how it really affects everything in our lives.
RINNA: That`s true.
LANDRY: I don`t think we should feel selfish for getting whatever amount of time we need. I just need help getting it.
RINNA: Thank you, girls, so much. I`ve got to go. I can`t thank you enough. I`ll see you soon.
RICHARDS: Lisa, you`re doing a great job.
LANDRY: Bye.
RINNA: You can see Denise Richards in "Blue Mountain State" Wednesdays at 11:00 p.m. on spike.
We`ll be right back with some pop culture dish. Oh boy, my favorite.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RINNA: Welcome back to the show. I`m Lisa Rinna sitting in for Joy.
After spending million of dollars and several months hyping it, the History Channel is scrapping plans to air the controversial mini series "The Kennedys" starring Katie Holmes and Greg Kinnear saying it wasn`t a right fit for the network.
With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news are Robert Verdi, celebrity stylist and co-creator of first comesfashion.com. Hello. Michelle Collins, comedian and managing editor of bestweek ever.tv. And, of course, the one and only Rob Shuter, AOL`s Pop Eater columnist. Hello.
MICHELLE COLLINS, COMEDIAN: Hi, Lisa.
RINNA: Hi, everybody. Welcome. OK. What do you think of all this? Why are they pulling this mini series?
ROBERT VERDI, CELEBRITY STYLIST: Because it was probably up against one of the real housewives, and it will never rate.
(LAUGHTER)
RINNA: Oh, no. I mean, they spent a lot of money on this. Eight episodes.
ROB SHUTER, AOL`S POP EATER COLUMNIST: Exactly. Yes. I mean, they`re saying that it isn`t a good fit for them.
RINNA: What does that mean?
SHUTER: It`s a really, really hard argument to understand because they read the script. This wasn`t improv. So, they knew about this long before they filmed it. So, suddenly not have seen the final results saying it`s not the right fit for us, and so, now, they`re trying to sell it for another network.
VERDI: Talk about dead people, want to talk about people who are living that they wish were dead like the real housewives.
COLLINS: How dare you, Robert.
RINNA: We love the Kennedys. We`re obsessed with the Kennedys. Do you think there was some pressure?
COLLINS: I heard a rumor that the producer of it was a very conservative Republican, right?
RINNA: I heard that also. Yes.
COLLINS: And so it kind of conflicted. There was a book coming out, I think, from Disney about the Kennedys and all kinds of conflict, but let`s face it. They should make this a pay-per-view event for gays that love Jackie Onassis.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: They will make millions of dollars.
SHUTER: I think you`re probably right. I think what I heard is that they did --
VERDI: I`m trying to DVR it as we speak.
SHUTER: They focus groups. It`s not right for that audience. The History Channel`s audience --
RINNA: What is the audience of the History Channel? What is it?
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: They love a documentary. A little older. This is kind of campy. I`ve seen a clip from this.
RINNA: Oh, you have?
SHUTER: It`s a little campy. It`s very showtime like Bravo. Yes. This is probably going to be better off on another network.
RINNA: Do you think another network will pick it up?
SHUTER: Definitely.
COLLINS: I think they should put Christina Aguilera in it as some use of sequence Burlesque. That`s what I called that.
RINNA: Well, speaking of Katie Holmes, there`s something out there about she and her husband, Tom Cruise, that they may sit out the Oscars this year to avoid a run-in with Anne Hathaway who did a skit on SNL. Apparently, they`re hurt over this skit that they did. Let`s take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNE HATHAWAY, ACTRESS: It was -- my character, Joey, was such a joy to play. On the surface, she did seem like another cute, popular girl, but --
(LAUGHTER)
HATHAWAY: It means that she was this incredibly complicated and intelligent woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RINNA: Rob -- OK, you`re all laughing.
VERDI: Genius.
RINNA: It`s genius, is it not?
VERDI: I am boycotting the Oscars, too, just to boycott them.
RINNA: Just to do it.
VERDI: The most heinous criminal act ever against mankind and Tom and Katie. It`s really an atrocity.
RINNA: Don`t you think it`s the highest form of flattery to be spoofed on SNL? I`m dying for it.
(LAUGHTER)
RINNA: Are you kidding? Please, spoof me.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: I think the most upsetting thing about this is we`re not going to get to see Tom Cruise`s formal lifts which are his best lifts. He`s tiny. Is anyone watching? Anyway, he`s very small, but I`m very upset. I love all of them.
SHUTER: I feel bad for the Cruises now. They have to go to the Oscars like they have to go now. They don`t have a movie nominated, but they have to go to prove to us all that they`re not mad with Anne Hathaway. That would sit on the front row, smile, like Jennifer had to when Angelina went to the Golden Globe. Like she`s got to be there. They`ve got to be there.
RINNA: I absolutely agree.
COLLINS: (INAUDIBLE) had come out this year, they`d be there. Because, you know, Tom has a great chance of winning.
VERDI: I`m going to boycott the Golden Globes and the sags, too.
COLLINS: Just to stand behind Tom and Katie in this criminal atrocity. Nothing this bad has happened since Sarah Palin got her own reality series.
RINNA: Well, speaking of Sarah Palin`s series, they`re saying now that the last show aired just what, last night, I think it was. There are no more. Why isn`t it? -- is it canceled? Why aren`t we doing anymore? What do you say?
VERDI: If you really want to watch that show, you can go to your local pet store and watch a mother get a frog with her kid. It`s basically the same show.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: That`s adorable. I would watch that.
RINNA: What?
(CROSSTALK)
VERDI: It`s like the most boring show. It`s like people in Alaska -- like not people in Alaska are boring, but --
(CROSSTALK)
VERDI: She`s always fishing. It`s like she`s always doing something that you do in a pet store.
RINNA: She shoots like deer and stuff. I don`t go out and shoot deer.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: But what`s really fascinating about this is that the network did want to do a second series. Her ratings are huge. It`s a big success. It`s Sarah that`s pulled the plug on this. Sarah doesn`t want to go back, and there`s rumor about the reason. Some people are saying that they`re not paying her enough. And some people are saying that she`s running for the White House, so she doesn`t want to be on the show. I think that`s rubbish. I think it`s about the money.
COLLINS: I don`t think she`s had enough children come out of her. If she wants it, show on TLC, we know the secret. We`ve seen what`s true. Fifteen kids have to come out of you before they`re going to give me a second season.
RINNA: I know. That`s why they passed on our series.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: You should get cancer (ph), get fly them up now and have all of them at the same time.
VERDI: One could be a midget. That`s a little person.
RINNA: We cannot go there. Robert!
COLLINS: They`re a great family.
VERDI: I didn`t say they weren`t a great family. I`m saying if you want to have a show, you have to be short.
RINNA: All right. Finally, let`s go to the good news about Victoria and David Beckham expecting their fourth child. I`m ecstatic about this. I love them. I hope they have a girl.
VERDI: I don`t think it`s theirs. I think she`s carrying it for Camille Grammer, the surrogate. It`s just a guess. It`s just my guess.
RINNA: Your brain freaks me out. It freaks me out.
VERDI: Or did Camille have surrogate surgery?
COLLINS: She did have surrogate surgery to keep that body of hers. Yes.
VERDI: And now, she has Victoria Beckham which is very she.
COLLINS: I don`t know how Victoria Beckham is able to squeeze out another kid out of her. I saw her in person. She was like the (INAUDIBLE). You put a cloak on her, and I`m --
RINNA: I kept on wondering those tiny girls like that. How do they get pregnant?
SHUTER: One of my favorite headlines of all time is when she had her last child. She had a cesarean section in Britain. And the headline of the newspaper was "Too Posh to Push." I thought it was just fantastic. You know, I can`t wait to see what the headline is for the fourth abbey.
RINNA: It would be nice for her to have a little girl, wouldn`t it?
VERDI: Why can`t she go with Madonna and buy a spicy baby some place.
SHUTER: Robert.
RINNA: Because she has a husband that looks like David Beckham and you want to still procreate that way, for sure.
COLLINS: And gorgeous kids.
RINNA: Gorgeous.
COLLINS: Those kids one after another like that model.
RINNA: Absolutely. But I`m going to give it to her. To have three seems impossible to me, but to go to four, no matter who you are and how much money you have, you still have to mother those children.
VERDI: Yes, but who`s going to get the Berkins (ph) if it`s all boys, unless, one of them is gay.
RINNA: No. But guess what, now she has her own 1$13,000 bag that is selling out at Harrods. Do you know that?
VERDI: No.
RINNA: Yes!
(LAUGHTER)
RINNA: Selling out. That little girl. Can you imagine what that little girl will get?
COLLINS: It`s going to be boring on the Loo Bhutan (ph). Her body was going to be red. That`s how she`s going to have a red bottom.
RINNA: You`re good. You guys are also great. I`m just honored that you all seem to play with me today.
VERDI: I`m boycotting the Oscars!
(LAUGHTER)
RINNA: You do that. Thank you all. Thank you so much. Don`t go away. There`s so much more to come.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RINNA: Father Albert Cutie was once known as Father Oprah for his wildly popular radio and TV shows and was beloved by parishioners at his Miami church. One in particular, it seems. The paparazzi caught the catholic priest one day two years ago sharing a romantic moment with a woman on the beach. He later left the faith for that woman who is now his wife. He writes about this experience in his new book, "Dilemma, A Priest Struggle with Faith and Love." Please welcome Father Albert Cutie. Hello.
FATHER ALBERT CUTIE, AUTHOR, "DILEMMA": I`m happy to be here.
RINNA: Oh, thank you so much for joining me. First of all, let`s talk about why write this book, why come out with this now?
CUTIE: You know, I spent a lot of time working in media. I was always a parish priest first, but I spent about, I don`t know, a weekly talk show for many, many years, daily at some point.
RINNA: And that`s why they called you Father Oprah.
CUTIE: That`s right. It`s interesting. I always told Oprah Winfrey, please forgive me for that. I didn`t make it up. It was "Newsweek" or one of these outfits. So, I remember one of the things that happened was, you know, six advice columns a week, three hours of radio a day, always dealing with other people`s dilemmas. And as a matter of fact, I was already preparing my second self-help book when I realized that people needed to know about my dilemma.
I needed to share about what happened to me because it was so public, and as you saw, the paparazzi took over, and they were after us for about four months. So, it was good to be able to kind of say I`ve been through a dilemma, too, and I want to share it with the world. You know, people think sometimes that priests are not human beings that we are not from this planet, but we are. And it`s good for us to be able to speak about our problems, too.
RINNA: Now, as you said, your secret came out after the paparazzi snapped you kissing your wife on a Miami Beach in 2009. Do you think you would have come out with this secret or did the paparazzi, obviously, push you to come out and be open about it?
CUTIE: You know, hindsight`s 20/20, and I always thought, well, soon I`m going to come out and announce it, but I have projects in my mind. I said I`m going to finish the handicapped access ramp on my church. I`m only going to finish this project or that project. And I always had, in my mind, that I had things to do, things to accomplish. But at the same time, you live this dilemma and this conflict of being in a double life.
You know, being a man that promised celibacy publicly but at the same time fell in love. And so, you have to struggle with it. And then, you have to come to the decision. The decision was already made in my life. I already had talked to many friends in the Episcopal Church, bishops and priests about this process that I was going through.
RINNA: Oh, you had.
CUTIE: Yes.
RINNA: So, you had been talking about it. It wasn`t like a total secret.
CUTIE: No, it wasn`t. I had talked to a few people that were confidants, and mostly, priests that had already done this. Because people think that, you know, this is so unique. A 100,000 priests have left to marry.
RINNA: Is that right?
CUTIE: 100,000, yes. And a good number have become Episcopal priests or had served on in other places. It`s interesting, in the last 48 hours since I`ve been doing this media thing with the book, I received so many e- mails just before walking in here with the green room, I was checking e- mails. All these priests writing me telling me how they`re now serving in different Christian denominations as married men. So, this story is not unique to me.
RINNA: Now, do you think the Catholic Church should lose this celibacy law, because I didn`t know that however many years ago, the priests could marry or the popes were married.
CUTIE: Forty popes were married. For the first 1,200 years of Christianity, celibacy was always optional among (INAUDIBLE). It only became mandatory in the 12th, 13th century, and even then, they couldn`t enforce it way until the Protestant reformation came along. And that`s when they really began to enforce it. The truth of the matter is this, it`s more traditional that priests do marry because Jesus chose 12 apostles, and most of them were married men.
So, I think it`s unreal to ask for men today for everyone to be male celibates. It`s also difficult to exclude women from ministry. You know, we have women in the Supreme Court. We have women at every level of the medical profession and every other profession, producers, CEOs, big companies. But I have to tell my little daughter, you know, if I were still roaming Catholic, oh, by the way, when you grow up, you can`t be called to be a priest because your church doesn`t want women to be priests. I think that`s unreal nowadays.
I used to think, you know, that whatever came from the Vatican had to be exactly that way. And for a long time, that`s how I thought. But then you begin to grow up and ideologically you begin to go through changes, and I think we all go through changes. And that`s what the book Dilemma is about. It`s not just about me falling in love and my wife and the hidden relationship with someone that I believe is the woman of my life. It`s about the struggles that you go through when you see people who got their tubes tied and they`re told, oh, it`s a mortal sin.
You use in vitro, it`s a mortal sin. You get a vasectomy, it`s a mortal sin. Contraception, mortal sin. You had a bad marriage, you remarry, mortal sin. So, almost everyone who comes to church has a problem where they can`t even go to communion. And then, you look at yourself and you say, wait a minute, I`m a sinner, too, and according to the church, this is a mortal sin for me to have a girlfriend.
RINNA: Right.
CUTIE: So, I mean, everything is a mortal sin. What they don`t tell you is that a violation of celibacy is not just what I did. A priest that masturbates is violating celibacy.
RINNA: Is that right?
CUTIE: A priest that watches pornography is not, you know -- everything that is a sexual expression is a violation of the celibate rule, if you will. And I understand, by the way, the value of celibacy for religious. We have monks and sisters in the Anglican community, too. It`s not just in the Roman Catholic Church. Episcopal and orthodox have monks and nuns and all that.
But for a secular priest like me, you know, a priest that lives out in the world as supposed to serve the society and live like everyday people, it`s a very impractical matter, you know, to say you got to be celibate in order to be a priest.
RINNA: Now, do you think it`s possible that it will change. Do you think you`re part of that change and can make that change?
CUTIE: I think it`s already changing in the weirdest way.
RINNA: Really?
CUTIE: And I`m going to tell you and you won`t believe it.
RINNA: Tell me what.
CUTIE: A priest in my church --
RINNA: Yes.
CUTIE: An Episcopal priest, anyone in the Anglican Communion chooses to become Roman Catholic. And most of the ones that are becoming Roman Catholic, I hate to say but it`s true, they`re leaving because they don`t agree with the ordination of women or our progressive stance for homosexuals. We don`t believe that homosexuals are intrinsically disordered. We believe that God creates everyone in his image and likeness and makes us all good and loving people.
So, a lot of those people that are very conservative in my church are now becoming Roman Catholic. And the pope receives them with their wives and they`re kids and they`re allowed to be Roman Catholic priests. So, it seems like a contradiction, right?
RINNA: My head is still -- I`m trying to wrap it around. I`m trying to figure it out.
CUTIE: But that is the truth. And they are becoming, Anglicans are becoming Roman Catholic just like Roman Catholic priest become Anglican like myself, but they are allowed to now keep their wives and their children. So, it`s almost like a double standard. If you`re born Roman Catholic, forget it. You know, you have this tradition and you can`t have a wife. But if you come from another church, we`ll receive you with the wife and the kids, and you can be a priest.
RINNA: It just doesn`t make any sense, does it?
CUTIE: Doesn`t seem to make sense to me, but I guess, it makes sense to the Vatican. There`s a lot of things that the church does, unfortunately, that bothers us. A lot of people are saying, well, this book, you know, is an attack of the church. I don`t believe it`s an attack. I think it`s the book of someone who loved the church very much, and who, for 25 years, spent time discerning, preparing to be a priest, wanting to be the best priest in the world, but in the process, changed his mind about some of the things that happened.
And I think that those changes are inevitable. The presence system of the Roman Catholic church, I think, is not sustainable for much longer. Change is always necessary in any living organism. We`re always changing.
RINNA: Absolutely.
CUTIE: Ourselves multiply. This is just who we are. It`s living beans.
RINNA: Absolutely.
CUTIE: And so, the church has a living body, has to change, has to evolve. And there are many priests and nuns, by the way, who feel exactly as I feel. And they`re still in the Roman Catholic Church. But if they express themselves publicly, many of them are either castigated or put aside or taken out of their positions.
RINNA: Well, that`s why you are so brave, and you are so -- you`re so fascinating. Stay with us. We have to take a break, but we`re going to continue right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RINNA: I`m back with Father Albert Cutie. His new book "Dilemma, A Priest`s Struggle with Faith and Love." Let`s talk a little bit about your personal life and your wife, how you met, how this all started for you.
CUTIE: I think it`s a story that, at least, I`ve heard of thousands of times in the sense that many priests who marry, marry someone that they met at church and that`s what happened to us. We --
RINNA: There she is. Beautiful.
CUTIE: She`s a beautiful woman.
RINNA: Beautiful.
CUTIE: And our eyes locked, and really, there was a strong connection from the very beginning, but we weren`t able to act on it for a long time. You know, it`s like you see the woman of your dreams, but you have to keep a distance.
RINNA: Well, especially as a priest. What happened to you when your eyes locked with another woman and you had that feeling? I mean, you probably didn`t expect that.
CUTIE: You don`t expect it. It surprises you. But I always say that the best things that happen in life are surprises.
RINNA: That`s true.
CUTIE: You know, God has a tendency to throw us curveballs. And looking at the wedding picture there, and I`m saying that something that I celebrated so many other times for other couples. As a matter of fact, every Saturday afternoon, when the couples would come, I would hear the readings from the book of Genesis and the different bible readings and one would say it is not good for the man to be alone.
I will make him a help mate. And I always thought, gosh, you know, does that apply to everyone but me? You know, it`s not good for a man to be alone. But really, I`ll tell you this. The answer started coming back to me more and more, and the answer was, you know --
RINNA: Oh, there`s your baby.
CUTIE: Isn`t she beautiful?
RINNA: Gorgeous.
CUTIE: Every time I would think of it, and now, I look at her, and I think, look at her feeding there. She`s five weeks old now. So, she`s beginning to eat a lot. And I`ll tell you the truth of the matter is, you never expect that type of curveball in your life.
RINNA: Especially for you.
CUTIE: Yes.
RINNA: I would think.
CUTIE: You expect that this is like a one-track life, and you`re going to live this way. And there`s a lesson in my book for anyone, not just for priests, but for any human beings, is that sometimes you have to learn to change tracks because we get used to just this one way thing. Now, with the changing economy, you know, I know a lot of people say, oh no, I`ve got to do this job because this is the job I`ve always done.
And you know, the truth is maybe the job that you always thought you were meant to do is not the job that will come your way now. And you have to have flexibility in life. And I think, for me, part of the dilemma, part of the struggle was, I did not want to change.
RINNA: Of course.
CUTIE: I did not want to move on. I was afraid. And I think fear paralyzes you. And inside in my heart, I thought, like, wait a minute, I love this woman, yes, it`s true, but I also love being a priest, and I have to be a Roman Catholic one because this is how I was raised. Even though I have all these disagreements with the institution, you know, it doesn`t matter. This institution will eventually change, and I`ll change, too and that just didn`t happen.
Eventually, what end up happening was that I realized God was asking me to move on. And I didn`t have to stop being a priest. I professed the catholic faith as an Episcopalian. Episcopalians are catholic, by the way. We`re catholic and reformed. So, we haven`t abandoned the creeds of the early church. We haven`t abandoned the early traditions. We have mass. We have the Eucharist. We have the sacraments, but we are, definitely, a church that I believe is a 21st century church.
A church that is willing to open its mind to today`s world and welcome all kinds of people without fear. As a matter of fact, most of the problems that we have in the Episcopal Church are because we`re so open to everyone. So, I`d rather be judged harshly for being open than judged harshly for being exclusive.
RINNA: Well, I agree with that. And on that note, what a fascinating story. What a fascinating book. Thank you so much.
CUTIE: Thank you.
RINNA: Thank you for joining us. And thank you for watching. Joy will join me tomorrow from Vegas with special guest, David Copperfield. Don`t miss it. Goodnight, everybody. So fun. Thank you, Joy.
END
