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Joy Behar Page
Sheen Madness; Tragedy in Tucson
Aired January 11, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, new reports that Charlie Sheen is in Las Vegas slamming shots and carousing with a gaggle of porn stars. So, how long before CBS execs step in and try to control his behavior?
Then Joy sits down with two of the Strip`s big stars, Penn Jillette and David Copperfield.
Plus, Jersey Shore`s Snooki and JWoww go off on Joy via YouTube.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am Joy and I`m on the freaking view.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stick around for Joy`s response.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: I`m in Las Vegas this week where I am one of the judges for the Miss America pageant. I am enjoying it thoroughly.
My friend Lisa Rinna has been holding down the fort today in New York and I`ll be back later in the show with my special Las Vegas celebrity interviews. But right now I`ve got to go. I left some money on the table.
Take it away Lisa.
LISA RINNA, HLN GUEST HOST: Thanks, Joy. We`ll check back with you in a little bit.
Tonight we start the show with some news about so-called bad boy actor Charlie Sheen. It seems he may be at it again after reportedly being seen downing vodka shots in Vegas -- oh, my gosh -- during a bender that included three porn stars.
Ok. Here with me to discuss are Howard Bragman, celebrity publicist and founder of 15 Minutes; and Bonnie Fuller president and editor-in-chief of HollywoodLife.com; and we have Reef Karim, psychiatrist, addiction specialist and founder of the Beverly Hills Center for Self-Control and Lifestyle Addictions.
Ok. Bonnie, let`s get started. What has happened? What are we dealing with here?
BONNIE FULLER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COME: Well, what we`re dealing with is another Charlie bender. He`s been at it over the weekend in Las Vegas.
HOWARD BRAGMAN, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST: Yes.
FULLER: With three different -- three different porn stars. Apparently one is 23 and he has taken a liking to her name, it`s Brie Olson (ph). The big question was, was he going to make it back onset?
He was due back today and apparently until the last minute they didn`t know. He wasn`t in communication but he took a private jet and arrived just a half an hour late.
RINNA: So he is on the set.
FULLER: He is on the set.
RINNA: And he`s fine.
So Howard, what are we talking about? Did he do anything illegal? Is there any trouble? What -- why are we talking about it?
BRAGMAN: I wondered that when we got the call today.
RINNA: Right. So, here we are.
BRAGMAN: But really, here you are, it`s more of the same. We have an actor who seems to have some issues with potentially addictive substances.
RINNA: Ok.
BRAGMAN: But people keep saying why does he have his job? What is going on here? He shows up to work and he shows up ready to work.
RINNA: And they get high ratings.
BRAGMAN: He shows up on time. They get high ratings. But let`s be clear.
RINNA: Ok.
BRAGMAN: There seems to be some sort of problem. And as the doctor will tell us these problems don`t go away unless they`re resolved. And that`s why CBS is nervous reportedly.
RINNA: Let`s go to Reef because Reef, obviously you are the addiction specialist. Do you think Charlie Sheen has a problem and should be in rehab?
REEF KARIM, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: You know, when we assess somebody, ok, as an addiction expert when I`m looking at somebody who`s got out of control behaviors, one of the techniques I use is something called motivational interviewing.
Basically what that means is you work with a client and you figure out what their ambivalence is to change. Why aren`t they changing? Why aren`t they doing something about their out of control behaviors?
When you look at that, you look at their consequences so in the case here, what is the consequence? You got a hit show. You`re hanging out. You`re making a lot of money. You`re going to Vegas. You`re partying with porn stars and whoever else. And you show up onset. Nobody says anything. And you do your thing.
Where is the consequence? There is a battle here between himself as a person and his lifestyle and his anger and his arrests and all of that versus all of the golden child that he is getting on the other side of it.
And it comes down to what`s the consequence going to be in the future? Because this is going to, you know, as Howard said it`s a spiral. It just goes over and over and over until there is a legal consequence, a financial consequence, or a medical consequence. And then you got a major problem.
So everybody is trying to stop that from happening but he`s just living his life doing his thing.
RINNA: All right. So, Bonnie, what do you think? Why are we all so -- are we concerned about Charlie`s health? Why are we talking about it?
FULLER: I think that -- I think -- listen. This guy is very popular. And the thing is that the role he plays on the show is a very similar role. He`s a womanizing playboy.
RINNA: Yes. It`s kind of genius.
FULLER: Yes. Who doesn`t take work all that seriously? And so I think because of that people forgive him. His fans forgive him.
On the other hand, I think we are concerned about him because we see the repetitive behavior. And I mean this man is a father. He`s got young twins. If he were a woman who was doing this, leaving the twins and going off partying with male porn stars we`d all be outraged.
RINNA: That`s true. It would be a double standard don`t you think, Howard?
BRAGMAN: I think if he was the responsible parent for his kids and they lived with him it would be a different issue but let`s be clear. The last time there was an issue it was in the Eloise Suite down the street at the Plaza and your kids are in the next room so I think there was some, at the very least some insensitivity to his kids there. So --
RINNA: At least he is in Vegas now and they`re having what, the biggest porn convention. He`s like a football fan at the Super Bowl.
FULLER: Yes. He`s like a kid in a candy store.
RINNA: He is.
FULLER: He likes porn stars. And he`s at the porn convention.
RINNA: Exactly.
KARIM: But you know, that`s --
RINNA: Reef, go ahead.
KARIM: That`s a great comment. It`s a great comment. He`s a kid in a candy store. He plays his character on TV. He plays his character in real life.
And with addiction, you know, it`s not like an addict wakes up one day usually and goes oh, you know what? I`m out of control. I think I need to check myself in. That usually doesn`t happen.
What happens is somebody else, that`s the whole concept of intervention. A whole team of people around them, not enablers, but people that actually care about them, will actually sit them down and go, look. There has to be some consequence to your actions. In this case, you know, maybe it needs to be the network. Managers, agents.
BRAGMAN: Well, let me address this, because these managers are making 10 percent, $4 million a year.
KARIM: Right. Exactly.
BRAGMAN: The agent is making $10 million a year. I own a company and I`ve had in many years, I`ve owned a company for more than 20 years. I`ve had employees where I thought there were issues. You are treading on very, very gentle ground when you start accusing employees of addictive behavior if it`s not interfering with the workplace.
RINNA: Well, and Reef don`t you think a person has to hit rock bottom themselves? I mean, you can do an intervention but they don`t necessarily work if the person is not ready to go.
KARIM: There is no doubt that motivation is the key factor to recovery. But you can save somebody from themselves in regards to addiction.
But the question is, what`s the bottom going to be? If he can keep doing the show he`s doing, making the money he is making and doing his thing, there is no bottom there. For some people the bottom is a breakup. For others it`s death.
So it`s like, how far do you have to go? And the reason I mention the networks and everything else, I understand how difficult that process is. There is no doubt. I work with a lot of other celebrity clients like that.
But the issue is, you know, if they don`t step in, if there`s nobody else to step in, then who`s going to step in down the road?
FULLER: Well, also remember Martin Sheen. His dad did think that he was going to die. His father at one point was praying for him and asking people to pray for him and did get him into rehab but that was several rehabs ago.
I mean, even, listen, Denise Richards in the last incident that we talked about in the Plaza Hotel, and he has two other children besides the twins with her, I mean, she was kind of -- she didn`t say anything negative. She said, hey. We`re on great terms, too. So she is that close and she`s not doing it now.
BRAGMAN: Let me say, there is a lot of Hollywood agents and managers who are -- and publicists, who are very comfortable talking to their client and saying, hey, this keeps happening. We`re having a problem here. I don`t mean to look at his agent --
RINNA: Would you do that?
BRAGMAN: I have.
RINNA: If you were his publicist would you do that?
BRAGMAN: I would have a talk with him and say, listen. Is something going on? Do you need help? I have the resources. It is very hard to accuse somebody of something and I think you build a wall.
What I try and do with clients is say, is there something you need help on? Because I know a lot of people.
I`ll tell you an example. I was working at a red carpet. We were doing an event. And there was an actor there and he was messed up out of his gourd --
RINNA: On the red carpet.
BRAGMAN: Buzzed -- buzzed on the red carpet. And I called his publicist and I called his agent and the agent said, well I would never feel comfortable talking to my client about that. I wasn`t there. I don`t know.
A couple of weeks later there was another red carpet event with another buzzed client. It was great. It wasn`t my client. I called the publicist and the publicist, thank you for letting me know. I have to have a talk with him. It`s really the individual rep that makes that decision about -- I`m the kind of guy who would. I think the smart people, because it`s so much more than the money after a while.
RINNA: You would hope so.
And Reef, let me ask you this. What do you think is going to happen next from your opinion? What`s the next step? What could happen?
KARIM: Well, it comes down to what is this out of control behavior doing to him and to his ability to be a big money earner? As Howard would I`m sure agree with me, a lot of this is just about money in regards to the network and the ratings and this and that. But it comes down to his health versus what he is, his identity as an actor. And if your health starts being impacted or --
(CROSSTALK)
RINNA: Absolutely.
KARIM: -- your ability to make money for all these other entities starts being jeopardized, everybody wants to jump in and send somebody to rehab.
RINNA: I think we wish him well and we really want him to get healthy like anyone. We hope that he can get some help and we want these people around him to help him. Don`t we?
FULLER: But the other thing, too, is the other pressure that could bear down upon him which hasn`t is advertisers for the show.
RINNA: Why haven`t they stopped?
FULLER: I know. It`s a family show. You would think that there would be some concern. But there`s been no drop of advertising.
BRAGMAN: Come on. The show is doing as well as ever. This isn`t the advertisers` responsibility.
But I think Dr. Karim said something really important early on. This kind of behavior is a spiral. At some moment what people on his team and what people at the network understand is that at some moment there is going to be I think you said legal, medical, or financial consequence of this.
FULLER: Right.
KARIM: Right.
BRAGMAN: And it`s not going to go away. And I know his publicist, he has one of the best publicist in town who is great and he created the word pre-hab the last time. He said, well, my client is going to pre-hab. I think he needs post-hab now.
RINNA: Well, let`s wish him well. We love you and we hope everything works out. That is for sure.
All right. Thanks, everybody. We`ll be back in a second.
FULLER: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Starting next week THE JOY BEHAR SHOW moves to 10:00 p.m. Now back to Joy`s guest host, Lisa.
RINNA: My husband Harry Hamlin -- there he is right there. He starred in the ground breaking 1982 movie "Making Love" about a married man living a double life as a closeted homosexual. That was just a movie. But lots of women find out that their partners are gay and it apparently happens a lot more than you might think.
Here to discuss this, Kiri Blakeley, author of "Can`t Think Straight", a memoir of mixed up love about learning that her fiance of ten years was gay and had been cheating on her with men; and Jonathan Alpert, psychotherapist and advice columnist for the Metro.
All right. Thank you, guys, so much.
Kiri, one night your fiance came to you after ten years and said, we need to talk.
KIRI BLAKELEY, AUTHOR, "CAN`T THINK STRAIGHT": Yes. He essentially called me into the living room. It was a regular night like any other night and he said, we need to talk. He said he was having confusion about his sexuality and that he was fantasizing about men. I thought, well, you know, that`s normal. That happens.
Then he started to cry and I, you know, as we talked it became clear that he didn`t want -- he wanted to explore these fantasies on his own and that our relationship would have to end.
So I was definitely upset, but then I got more upset because in the morning he left for work and I decided I kind of need to know what`s going on here, how far this has gone. I went into his computer. I`d had his password for a long time and never used it. We`d been together ten years and we were just about to get married.
RINNA: Wow. You were engaged.
BLAKELEY: Yes. And he was the one who always wanted to get married and he was the one sort of pressing for it. And I went into his computer and I found gay porn, pictures that he had been taking naked of himself and sending to men.
RINNA: Oh, my.
BLAKELEY: And he had been scouring Craigslist ads, men for men, the sex section. So at that point I called him at work and I said, "You`ve been cheating on me with men." And that`s when he admitted he had been doing it for years.
RINNA: So, I mean it`s so shocking that for ten years you had no idea whatsoever, no clues.
BLAKELEY: No. I wouldn`t have been with him if I did.
RINNA: No.
Jonathan, is this something that is so prevalent? Please explain.
JONATHAN ALPERT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Lisa, it is extremely common. It`s very prevalent. It`s easy to do.
RINNA: How is it easy? That`s my question. How is that easy to live a double life like that?
ALPERT: Yes. You know, technology has helped, with Facebook and Craigslist and now we have Grinder. It just makes it so easy to have this secret double life, like Kiri experienced.
RINNA: So, again, I mean, how could you not have known, you know, I think of my own husband and of course he played a gay man in a movie.
ALPERT: They`re different.
BLAKELEY: And you`re hoping that all he`s always he is doing is playing a gay man.
RINNA: And you`re hoping that, but I would be so floored. How do you recover from that?
BLAKELEY: Well, I would define recover.
RINNA: Ok. Please.
BLAKELEY: I`m not sure I`ve recovered yet.
RINNA: All right. Explain the process of finding out that sort of -- I would imagine it`s a devastation.
BLAKELEY: Well, yes.
RINNA: It`s a betrayal.
BLAKELEY: It was, I was, ok. What I did isn`t what I would recommend what anyone did.
RINNA: What did you do?
BLAKELEY: I sort of went crazy.
RINNA: And what does that mean?
BLAKELEY: I went out drinking a lot and I sort of began dating right away, dating would be the operative word for what I was doing.
RINNA: Got it.
BLAKELEY: I went a little nuts. I went a little wild. I didn`t know how to be alone anymore.
RINNA: Well, you`ve been with him for ten years.
BLAKELEY: I`ve been with him for 10 years. We were a very close couple, we`re always together. And I always felt like I knew everything about him so this was like a real psychotic break from reality for me.
RINNA: Yes.
BLAKELEY: So I just went kind of wild and that`s all in my book. So, you know, in terms of recovery, yes. I`m not crying every day anymore. You know, I`m -- I can go the whole day and be fine and I can go the whole week and be fine but it`s always in the back of your mind, who else is lying to you?
RINNA: Yes. I was going to say how is your trust level with people now?
BLAKELEY: It`s better than it was. I used to think everyone was lying about everything. It`s much better than it was.
But, yes. You still have flashes in your mind. You know, I`m dating right now and dating a man right now and have been for a while and I`ll still, I`ll just -- all of a sudden I`ll think what is he doing at his computer right now? Not even necessarily that he`s gay. I`m not worried about that. It`s just, what secret are you holding?
RINNA: My question, too, is what would it be like if it was a woman instead of a man? What if he was cheating with a woman?
BLAKELEY: A lot of people ask that and it doesn`t make it any better.
RINNA: I`m sure it doesn`t.
ALPERT: Cheating is cheating.
BLAKELEY: Cheating is cheating.
And it was almost worse because it was like not only were you cheating and he was in love with a man on top of it, but there was this whole secret that I didn`t know. So in a way it was better because I didn`t get competitive. What, is she prettier, is she younger than me? You don`t get that.
But it`s as if he was keeping some deep, dark secret about his health or something else weird. You know?
RINNA: Now, is there any way, Jonathan, to tell, are there any signs that she could have seen before in this ten-year period?
ALPERT: Yes. You know, there are no, like red flags, there are no obvious signs, you know, apart from if you find gay porn on the computer.
RINNA: Right. That`s pretty obvious.
ALPERT: Or catch him in the act. But these people become very good at hiding things. They have to. They become very skilled at hiding things.
RINNA: I would think they would get sick from that. That if you have to hide something that deeply that you would somehow get sick.
ALPERT: Yes. I mean, and that`s at the point that I see it when they come to therapy because they`re so ridden with anxiety and stress and depression. And a lot of times they`ll use drugs and alcohol to deal with that. So that`s what I try to help them with.
And you know, as a therapist I`m trying to get them to come out, to lead a more honest life, to hopefully avoid situations like Kiri experienced.
RINNA: Why do they do it in the first place? What are the pressures that make them not come out.
ALPERT: You know, with a lot of people it is difficult to be gay. A lot of these people have jobs where it is difficult to be gay if they work in finance, where even today they get ridiculed and made fun of. So they`re trying to create an image of a straight lifestyle.
RINNA: We have a long way to go, don`t we? Thank you so much.
ALPERT: We do.
RINNA: When we come back, I hand the mike back over to Joy. She`ll sit down with Penn Jillette, next. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The tragedy in Tucson this weekend has shaken the country and many different kinds of people have weighed in on the subject. With me now to talk about it is illusionist and noted libertarian Penn Jillette.
Penn, I wanted to talk to you because you are a libertarian and I assume that you don`t believe in gun control because I heard that you said gun control is bull. Can you explain what you mean by that?
PENN JILLETTE, LIBERTARIAN: Well, you know, I do think that you don`t want the government to be the only -- only group that`s armed.
BEHAR: Right.
JILLETTE: That doesn`t mean you want to give weapons to people who are mentally ill.
BEHAR: Right.
JILLETTE: That doesn`t mean you don`t blame the perpetrators. It doesn`t mean you want everybody shooting everybody all the time. You know, it`s misrepresented.
And at a time like this it`s very, very hard to talk about freedoms when all we`re thinking about is safety.
BEHAR: So, you know, the federal assault weapon ban expired in 2004. Had that still been in place, this guy Loughner would have had a harder time shooting all of these people.
JILLETTE: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, he was able to shoot 30 shots in a row without reloading. Why does a guy like that, first of all, have a gun, get a gun, and then why is anyone allowed to have a gun that shoots 30 shots without stopping?
JILLETTE: But the problem is, you can`t judge all of us by crazy people.
BEHAR: Oh, I know that.
JILLETTE: You know, there are really, really bad people and they will use whatever they`ve got to do terrible things. We have to be very careful when we have somebody who we know is the perpetrator to not blame other people.
I mean, we have a horrible tragedy. We have a really bad person; that doesn`t mean we`re all to blame.
BEHAR: Well, no. That was another part of the conversation --
JILLETTE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- which is that people are pointing fingers at talk show hosts.
JILLETTE: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, in fact, Roger Ailes has said that he is going to tone it down on fox.
JILLETTE: But that is --
BEHAR: Do you think that is even going to work? Is Glenn Beck going to be quieter?
JILLETTE: But that is pretending he`s not crazy. If you`re saying this is what caused him to do that, I mean, if you look at the groups he belonged to, American Renaissance, they seem to dislike Sarah Palin. They seem to really dislike the Tea Party. That organization that he says he was a member of.
BEHAR: That may be true. So you don`t see any connection between juicing somebody up?
JILLETTE: The definition of being crazy is we don`t know what sets you off. "Catcher in the Rye" set off Mark David Chapman. Hinckley was set off by Jody Foster in "Taxi Driver".
BEHAR: Yes. But Jody Foster didn`t have cross hairs on his face.
JILLETTE: Exactly my point. We don`t know what sets people off. If you take away all of that rhetoric you`ll still have bad, crazy people.
BEHAR: Ok. So before we go -- I don`t have a lot of time on this -- you would say that crazy people should not get guns. Right?
JILLETTE: I would -- well certainly.
BEHAR: Well why can`t that be in place? Why is it so hard to enforce that?
JILLETTE: We never, ever in the history of humanity have we been able to stop bad people. Bad people have always existed. They existed before guns. So, yes. If you can find a way to absolutely identify every dangerous person and find a way to keep it safe you can do that but if you can identify them the problem is already solved. You don`t need guns.
BEHAR: I know. Ok. All right.
I have to take a break. Believe it or not we have more with Penn Jillette but it`s not on this topic. We`re going to be talking about more fun subjects.
JILLETTE: And we can make it Joy.
BEHAR: But thank you for weighing in. I appreciate that. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For most 84-year-old men, a good week involves digesting soft foods and staying awake past 3:00 p.m. Hugh Hefner is not most 84-year-old men, and he`s had a great week. He not only got engaged to his 24-year-old girlfriend but is also buying back "Playboy."
With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news are the lovely illusionist, Penn Jillette, who`s celebrating ten years at the Rio here in Las Vegas. Very good. And the lovely and beautiful, Holly Madison, star of "Peepshow" at Planet Hollywood also here in Las Vegas.
HOLLY MADISON, STAR, "PEEPSHOW": Thank you.
BEHAR: Welcome, you guys, to the show. Let me start with you, Holly because I`m talking about Hugh. Now, you were his main squeeze in 2001, right?
MADISON: Mm-hmm.
BEHAR: He was at that time 74 and you were 21.
MADISON: Yes.
BEHAR: What exactly was the attraction? Did he wheeze sweet nothings in your ear or what?
(LAUGHTER)
MADISON: No. I think most girls are attracted by the glamour, the lifestyle --
BEHAR: Yes.
MADISON: And if they get along with Hef and the rest of the girls, it`s, you know, it`s a fun. It`s a really fun environment and a really fun place to be in.
BEHAR: But come on, Holly, you have to sleep with the guy, right?
(LAUGHTER)
MADISON: Well, I mean, there`s definitely a romantic relationship.
(LAUGHTER)
MADISON: So, either you go there, you know, either you like him or you don`t. And, you know, it`s definitely different and was definitely a fun time in my life, and I wouldn`t trade it.
BEHAR: Aha. You were very young. I mean, I`ve --
MADISON: Right.
BEHAR: And I think he`s a charming guy. He`s very smart. He`s lovely, actually. And I think you know what, Penn, it`s funny that he --
PENN JILLETTE, ILLUSIONIST: he threw me out of the "Playboy" magazine.
BEHAR: He did. Why?
JILLETTE: I was there with Al Goldstein. You know Al Goldstein?
BEHAR: Another bargain.
JILLETTE: And al had just offered a million dollars to kill the Ayatollah, and there was a Fatwah on him briefly, and we walked into playboy mansion and his girlfriend at the time said there is a Fatwah on him. Get him out of here. And I was drug out along with Al. So, I didn`t get a chance for romance but certainly for the lifestyle, fun, and the glamour --
BEHAR: And the zoo. How about all the zoo animals?
MADISON: I love the zoo.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: They`re all 19 years old. They have implants. Whatever.
JILLETTE: The zoo animals?
BEHAR: Now, what about he`s trying to buy back "Playboy?" I mean, that`s interesting. Could you see anybody else running "Playboy?" I could.
MADISON: No, absolutely not. And I think it`s a great move for him, personally. He wants a company that`s run to his taste and something that`s left for his children. And when you have the tremendous responsibility of trying to make money every quarter for your stockholders, that`s not necessarily the same direction as you might go if you wanted to turn the company around long term. So, I think it`s a good move for him.
BEHAR: You know, he`s getting engaged to this -- just got engaged to Crystal Harris who`s 24, and he`s 84.
MADISON: Right.
BEHAR: I mean, come on. I don`t know what to say about it.
MADISON: It`s crazy. I mean, this is going to sound like the silliest thing ever because obviously.
BEHAR: Yes.
MADISON: I think she`s a little too young. I mean, obviously, he dates way younger, but I think at least a woman in her late 20s early 30s. I mean --
Ten years ago, you were 21.
MADISON: Right.
JILLETTE: So, she`s only six years different than what you were.
MADISON: Exactly, but I wasn`t mature enough to settle down. Maybe, I thought I was, but I`ve done so much more since then.
BEHAR: That was a fling with the old guy.
MADISON: Yes.
JILLETTE: I guess so. If she were six years older, that`s the difference, right? If she were 30, you`d be OK?
MADISON: Maybe a little bit. I think for a woman you know a little bit more about what you want and to commit to something long term, you know? I mean --
BEHAR: Yes.
JILLETTE: Well, it can`t be long term. He`s dead.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: All I can say is if I were that girl, I would never allow him in a drug store. Get my point?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know what, here`s another interesting thing about you, my dear. You`re appearing in this review called "Peepshow," and your producers have asked you to lose weight. Now --
MADISON: Yes.
BEHAR: You look perfectly perfect to me as far as I can say.
MADISON: Thank you.
BEHAR: Also, Penn, maybe you can answer. Don`t men, don`t straight guys, you know, straight guys who go to a "Peepshow," don`t they like a woman with a little curves?
JILLETTE: But these are the producers. This isn`t the audience.
BEHAR: Shouldn`t the producers know better?
JILLETTE: I don`t think the producers ever know better. No, they`re not going for the audience, they`re going for their taste. How much did they ask you to lose?
MADISON: They didn`t give me a number, but one of the things that happened when the original women who opened the show from New York kind of, their term was up and we hired a lot of local girls, is coincidentally or due to the tastes of the producers and the directors, you know, the girls are much more fit. Some of them are fitness models in their spare time. They`re very muscular, very thin, and I`m not.
So, of course I look heavier to them by comparison, but I don`t market myself that way. I market myself as a sex symbol, and I`m fine with the way I look. I`m willing to try and get a little bit healthier, but I don`t think I`m going to lose more than a couple pounds.
BEHAR: So, what did you say to them?
MADISON: You know, I said, look, I`ll give it a shot. I`ll clean up my diet a little bit. You know, I think every woman feels like no matter how thin they are, they`d love for their stomach to be flatter. They love less cellulite or whatever, but I`m not looking to be skinny. I`m not --
BEHAR: So, you don`t exercise a lot? I love that about you.
MADISON: Thanks. I mean, other than dancing in the show, I try and fit in the treadmill when I can, but I`m not a workout freak. I`m not interested in being muscular.
JILLETTE: What do you eat that`s so terrible?
MADISON: Oh, you should see.
JILLETTE: I would like to see. I`m asking you.
MADISON: Junk food, pepper mill chicken wings, all kinds of crazy stuff like fast food, but I`ve cut that out a lot. I do like the fresh diet thing where it`s delivered to my home. And I`ve lost a couple pounds. I don`t think I`ll go much further.
JILLETTE: No more going to pepper mill for wings.
MADISON: I know. It`s just salads.
BEHAR: You`re so charming. I think you`re adorable.
MADISON: Thank you. Very sweet.
BEHAR: I love it that you don`t pay attention to all of that, you know? I mean, come on. Women have so -- we have so much pressure.
JILLETTE: I`m trying to lose 180 pounds.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yes. OK. All right. I have another story for you. As you may know out there, I love satire, (INAUDIBLE). Jonathan Swift, Snooki. Take a look at this YouTube video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Disgusting. I am joy and I`m on the freaking "View" and I own everything in the world. And I rule everything and that`s all. And when I say that Snooki is a whore, she`s a whore. You "Jersey Shore" kids are disgusting. You know why I don`t like them? Because I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Joy, and these people ruined my life in high school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, and that`s why I love (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to talk about them on my little talk show.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, I must say I was surprised to see that video. I thought AA meetings were private.
JILLETTE: Is that you?
BEHAR: No, that`s not me.
JILLETTE: That wasn`t you?
BEHAR: No.
JILLETTE: It was uncanny.
BEHAR: what?
JILLETTE: I felt like I was in the room with you. It was perfect.
BEHAR: Listen, you know, I happen to believe, Holly, that imitation is the highest form of flattery.
JILLETTE: You keep believing that. Good for you.
(LAUGHTER)
MADISON: It`s nice to know you own the world, too. That`s awesome.
BEHAR: I own the world. I know. I love that.
JILLETTE: You have to believe that.
BEHAR: I do.
JILLETTE: People live it that. And the meaner, the more they like you.
BEHAR: Well, you know, Fred Armison at "Saturday Night Live" makes fun of me also. I never even thought I was a celebrity until I saw these imitations to tell you truth.
JILLETTE: Does it bother you a little bit somewhere?
BEHAR: No.
JILLETTE: Really? Not at all?
BEHAR: Not at all.
JILLETTE: Not at all?
BEHAR: No.
JILLETTE: So, anybody making fun of you?
BEHAR: I kind of like it.
JILLETTE: Just everything breaks my heart.
BEHAR: Does it really? You`re so sensitive.
JILLETTE: Every single bad thing that`s said about me, even by psychotics, people I disagree with, everything. It always breaks my heart. And that`s also true for Howard Stern. It was true for Tennison (ph).
BEHAR: Oh.
JILLETTE: You`re not bothered by that at all?
BEHAR: No.
JILLETTE: Not even slightly?
BEHAR: No.
JILLETTE: Not even when you`re alone, quiet, lonely?
BEHAR: No. I think it`s funny. At one point, they say, they go -- well, back in the day during the great depression is when she had trouble with kids like us. It`s funny. What are they going to say to make a joke about my being old? What are they going to say, I`m fat? I`m old? So what? This Fred Armison may imitating me. Look at this.
(LAUGHTER)
JILLETTE: I can understand you saying it doesn`t bother you. I`m asking you, if it doesn`t really bother you?
BEHAR: Seriously does not bother me. I like it. If it bothered me, I wouldn`t show it.
JILLETTE: I guess, you would.
BEHAR: I like it. I think it`s funny. You know what? I want to wish, first of all, I`m not the only one in Vegas this week. The other -- the porn convention is here, too. Did you know that? And so is Charlie Sheen. Now, do the math. Anyway, an apology note Marlon Brando wrote to Charlie Sheen for missing his 26th birthday in 1991 has surfaced, and it really seems to contradict Brando`s image as an eccentric recluse. OK?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Let me read it to you. He wrote, "Dear Charlie, I`m feeling like a very large toured on a very thin stick. I`m holed up in bed and taking everything from sled dog urine to powdered East Indian vulva." And he goes on to say happiest of birthdays, et cetera. You know what`s really creepy? There`s a picture of him kissing Larry King, I heard. No.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean, he was not kidding, this guy. I think it took him a lot. He couldn`t get out of bed at the time.
JILLETTE: He was kidding. It wasn`t sled dog urine. There were certainly jokes in there. There`s no doubt about it. He`s kidding.
BEHAR: No, I know he`s kidding. You know what, do you know who -- I mean I know he was kidding about that. But in terms of he couldn`t make it there, I think he wasn`t kidding because he was obese at that time.
JILLETTE: OK. Trying to get into the "Peepshow." That`ll lose some weight.
BEHAR: But Holly, do you know who Marlon Brando was?
MADISON: Yes. And actually, he wanted to come to one of the parties at the mansion when I lived there, and he requested coming to one of the dining rooms whose window, which window faced out onto the tent where we would have the parties outside, and his request was just to watch the party. He didn`t want to go out there. He just wanted to come and watch and take pictures with girls, but he wouldn`t take a picture with Hef. Now, he never showed up, but that was an interesting story.
BEHAR: Why wouldn`t he take a picture with Hef?
MADISON: I don`t know. I thought that was strange.
BEHAR: A little homophobia maybe. That it would look like he was one of Hef`s romances going on, not that he`s gay. I`m not saying that.
JILLETTE: That was the problem?
BEHAR: Maybe. Why wouldn`t he take a picture with Hugh Hefner?
JILLETTE: You`re asking me to explain Brando? I`m the expert on how Brando thinks? All I was willing to say is he wasn`t really taking sled dog urine. That`s as far as I`m going.
BEHAR: I know. He also said something else. I`m sure it`ll be a kick in the ass, and I hate to miss it. He was OK. I happened to like Marlon Brando very much. I thought that the -- don`t you remember at the Oscars when he sent the American-Indian girl up there?
JILLETTE: I like -- I mean, "Last Tango in Paris" is one of the greatest movies.
BEHAR: I haven`t had butter since. Thank you guys very much. Be sure to check out the new season of "Holly`s World" premiering January 23rd at 10:30 on E! We`ll be back in a minute with David Copperfield, this full magician to all the time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: David Copperfield has walked through the Great Wall of China. He`s made the statue of liberty disappear, and he`s levitated over the Grand Canyon, OK? All of that, and he still can`t explain the success of that show "Bridalplasty." Go figure. OK. Joining me at Planet Hollywood is magician and illusionist, David Copperfield. David, it`s so nice to have you here.
DAVID COPPERFIELD, MAGICIAN/ILLUSIONIST: Thank you so much. welcome to the smoke.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s brutal, the smoke.
COPPERFIELD: Yes. It`s not my smoke. It`s not magical smoke. It`s cigarette smoke inside the casino. Welcome to my world.
BEHAR: Like you just said to me, people can`t believe they`re allowed to still smoke indoor or something.
COPPERFIELD: This is the one place, the last bastion of --
BEHAR: So, they really do it up.
COPPERFIELD: They do it. They do it up.
BEHAR: So, you`re currently doing a show.
COPPERFIELD: I am.
BEHAR: Where are you doing the show?
COPPERFIELD: At the MGM Grand. I do 15 shows a week, two shows a night every night, no nights off, and three shows on Saturday.
BEHAR: How exhausting?
COPPERFIELD: Do I look good?
BEHAR: You look great.
COPPERFIELD: Thanks.
BEHAR: You look really good.
COPPERFIELD: I rested. I took a nap before the show because of you.
BEHAR: You must have some special trick to perking yourself up.
COPPERFIELD: Lots of naps. In fact, your compadre, Barbara Walters, told me When I did the other show.
BEHAR: "The View." Yes.
COPPERFIELD: She said that if you take 20-minute naps, she`s found or somebody told her, either she does it or she was told by an expert that is worth 24 hours of sleep, something crazy like that.
BEHAR: Well, she would know because her career is based on no sleep, and she never goes to the bathroom.
(LAUGHTER)
COPPERFIELD: That`s magic, you say.
BEHAR: Yes. Now, let`s talk about being a magician. I`m very interested in magicians.
COPPERFIELD: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m very interested. How do you become a magician? Did someone teach you?
COPPERFIELD: I started as a ventriloquist, a really bad ventriloquist.
BEHAR: A bad one? What`s the -- you moved your lips?
COPPERFIELD: My lips were smacking and my material sucked, you know?
BEHAR: OK.
COPPERFIELD: Out of the back and voice like, you know?
BEHAR: Aha.
COPPERFIELD: And I used to watch Paul Winchell on TV. Remember Paul Winchell and Jerry Mahoney?
BEHAR: Oh, yes. Jerry Mahoney. Yes.
COPPERFIELD: You know, but I couldn`t do magic -- I couldn`t do ventriloquism, but magic is what I was able to do. So, I got a lot of approval when I did magic.
BEHAR: Now, you call yourself an illusionist rather than a magician?
COPPERFIELD: Yes.
BEHAR: is there a difference? What`s the difference?
COPPERFIELD: The classic joke. (INAUDIBLE). He`s told this joke in every show.
BEHAR: OK.
COPPERFIELD: If you call yourself an illusionist, you get paid 20 percent more.
BEHAR: Aha.
COPPERFIELD: And I keep telling the joke because I got a reaction just like you just gave.
BEHAR: Yes, which was what?
COPPERFIELD: Nothing.
(LAUGHTER)
COPPERFIELD: But it worked on Regis. That`s all I can tell you.
BEHAR: Well, he`s easier.
COPPERFIELD: That`s right. The audience is closer. They can hear.
BEHAR: But the illusion takes you how long to do?
COPPERFIELD: It took me about two years to create an illusion.
BEHAR: Why so long?
COPPERFIELD: Because it starts with models and mockups and so forth, but to answer your other question.
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
COPPERFIELD: You know, doing illusions really is about doing things large in scale. I do both in my show. I do close up magic, kind of the magic that`s really one-on-one, but I also enjoy doing big spectacular things because my big passion is to tell stories with magic, take magic and make them emotional, make them moving, taking the audience on a journey.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
COPPERFIELD: My idols really weren`t other magicians. My idols were Gene Kelly and Fred Astair and Orson Welles and Walt Disney. So, I wanted to take what I did well. It was magic. And use that medium to tell stories.
BEHAR: That`s interesting that you really -- so, Houdini was not a role model for you?
COPPERFIELD: Not in the beginning. No. Now, I have a big museum, a private museum of all of his things. I really have a great respect for him, but in the beginning, my real role models were, you know, Victor Fleming, the way he directed a movie or Walt Disney or Frank Capra.
BEHAR: Victor Fleming, didn`t he direct "Wizard of Oz," right?
COPPERFIELD: And "Gone with the Wind."
BEHAR: And "Gone with the Wind." Partly. Just let me ask you about Houdini, though, for a second. I saw the movie with Tony Curtis and Janet Lee, and he`s a Jewish guy just like you, right?
COPPERFIELD: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s interesting.
COPPERFIELD: Not from New Jersey. Not from New Jersey.
BEHAR: No. But, you know.
COPPERFIELD: A lot of Jew magicians.
BEHAR: Are there?
COPPERFIELD: Tons of them.
BEHAR: Who else?
COPPERFIELD: You know, my mind is drawing a blank now.
BEHAR: OK. I know, but Penn Jillette is not Jewish.
COPPERFIELD: He wants to be a Jewish.
BEHAR: He wants to be. OK.
COPPERFIELD: He won`t admit it.
BEHAR: It`s an interesting thing that Jews are attracted to magic like that. Must have something to do with the Kabbalah?
COPPERFIELD: Maybe.
BEHAR: Or quick escapes, maybe, from various countries?
COPPERFIELD: Maybe quick escapes from different countries.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK.
COPPERFIELD: That`s right.
BEHAR: So I once remember hearing the story about Harry Houdini that he made a deal with his mother. Do you know this story? That when they would do a seance after one of them was dead, they`d have a secret word, and if the secret word came out, then they would know that that really was the person rather than a trick.
COPPERFIELD: That wasn`t his mother. It was his wife.
BEHAR: Oh, it wasn`t his mother?
COPPERFIELD: No, no. His mother was dead and probably motivated to debunk people that did that kind of thing.
BEHAR: And what was the upshot of that story?
COPPERFIELD: He didn`t do it.
BEHAR: He never heard the word?
COPPERFIELD: Never heard the word. She never heard the word. So, he probably heard it because he was dead and he probably dreamed it. She was alive and --
BEHAR: Yes.
COPPERFIELD: And was waiting for him to say from beyond the word, and it was Roosevelt believe was the word and never heard the word.
BEHAR: Never heard the word. So, do you think that that pretty much debunks also this idea that these guys can speak to the dead? You know, Van Prague and John Edwards and people like that who say they can speak to the dead. It`s also a trick, is it not?
COPPERFIELD: One would think. You know, something inside me wants to believe in it, you know, but --
BEHAR: Oh, sure.
COPPERFIELD: As one of your future guests on this table will tell you, no, nothing has ever been proven. In his own way, Houdini by not coming back, proved his point which was people that are trying to take your money to say that you can speak to your dead mother or father or whatever, they`re taking your money.
BEHAR: They`re taking their money.
COPPERFIELD: Yes.
BEHAR: But, you know, I know these two guys. I like them very much.
COPPERFIELD: Whose two guys?
BEHAR: Van Prague and John Edwards. They`re really lovely guys.
COPPERFIELD: I don`t know them.
BEHAR: Very nice. And I mean, I think that they do serve a purpose.
COPPERFIELD: Which is?
BEHAR: Which is that, you know, people who have lost loved ones --
COPPERFIELD: Hope. A little bit of hope.
BEHAR: You know, want to know that the person is OK.
COPPERFIELD: Is OK.
BEHAR: And all that even if it`s an illusion.
COPPERFIELD: Wouldn`t it be great if there was one of these guys and all the messages were negative? That came back as your mother hates you, you`re a bad guy, you did this. Nobody would like that. Nobody buys that.
BEHAR: That`s true. Everyone is happy.
COPPERFIELD: Happy. Hope.
BEHAR: Enjoying a delightful General Tsao`s chicken. Hitler is loving it.
COPPERFIELD: Yes, he`s a loving Jews now.
BEHAR: All of a sudden.
COPPERFIELD: It`s amazing.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. We`re going to take a little break here. And when we come back, we`re going to talk more with the fabulous David Copperfield.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And I`m back with illusionist, David Copperfield. Now, David, I understand that you have bought 11 islands in the Bahamas. What, ten weren`t enough?
COPPERFIELD: That`s true.
BEHAR: Why? What did you do?
COPPERFIELD: Because 11 is one louder.
BEHAR: Where are these islands?
COPPERFIELD: They`re in the Exuma Bahamas. That`s not just the Bahamas, lower Bahamas, the Exuma. If you Google earth, the Bahamas, you`ll see this amazing water. When the astronauts travel around the world and they wanted to know, we asked the astronauts what was the most beautiful place in their vantage point. It was right there, the Exuma Bahamas.
BEHAR: Really?
COPPERFIELD: The Exuma Island. And I have a place called the islands of Copperfield Bay because, you know, I was inspired by Donald Trump. You know, I put my name on it.
BEHAR: Oh, you put your name?
COPPERFIELD: I did. Copperfield Bay.
BEHAR: All right.
COPPERFIELD: And it`s mushacay. M-U-S-H-A-C-AY. Muschacay and is the main island. And it`s a place where like dreams come true. It`s an amazing place.
BEHAR: Do you have to take one of those little planes to get there? Because if I come, I`ll be scared to do that.
COPPERFIELD: No, you can take a big plane. You can take your private jet which I know you have.
BEHAR: Yes.
COPPERFIELD: You take your G-5 and take it to the big island next to us and we pick you on a boat and take you to Exuma.
BEHAR: That`s cool.
COPPERFIELD: Or I have my own little airport on one of my islands, on imagine island, I`ve got an airport.
BEHAR: Yes.
COPPERFIELD: But you can only take small planes. You wouldn`t like that.
BEHAR: OK. Now, how much did this cost you?
COPPERFIELD: Lots of money. Lots and lots.
BEHAR: But I mean the real estate market is down. Did you lose money?
COPPERFIELD: It was before that market went down, so I got robbed.
BEHAR: So you paid top dollar.
COPPERFIELD: Zillions of dollars.
BEHAR: I didn`t realize that you made so much money.
COPPERFIELD: Isn`t that amazing?
BEHAR: I mean, I know you work for it, very hard.
COPPERFIELD: I work my butt off. I do.
BEHAR: But you must really make a lot of money.
COPPERFIELD: I do? I don`t know.
BEHAR: I mean, you`re the first person I`ve ever met who owns islands.
COPPERFIELD: Really?
BEHAR: Yes.
COPPERFIELD: That`s not true. You`ve met many people who own islands.
BEHAR: No, I have not.
COPPERFIELD: Really?
BEHAR: Yes. Didn`t Kim Basinger own an island?
COPPERFIELD: No. She owned Atlanta, I think. Right outside of Atlanta.
BEHAR: You also have 80,000 items of magic memorabilia, and the world`s largest collection of Houdini memorabilia. You know, you`re on the verge of being a hoarder.
COPPERFIELD: I`m a hoarder.
BEHAR: Just say it.
COPPERFIELD: As long as you don`t take the "der" after hoarder.
BEHAR: Now, what about that? Can we go there and see stuff?
COPPERFIELD: Yes. Come on.
BEHAR: Where is it?
COPPERFIELD: Well, it`s a private museum. You have to be either a scholar or somebody working on a movie. The movies that came out like "The Prestige" or the "Illusionist," you know, all those directors came and did research there and people that, you know, want to learn about magic, they come there. You know, it`s a lot of secrets. What we do is we`ve taken a lot of exhibitions out of there. We`ve done exhibitions in L.A. where it doesn`t reveal secrets.
BEHAR: Yes. You know, it`s funny. As I`m talking to you, I was thinking what do I really want to ask you? I only have a few seconds left.
COPPERFIELD: Go. I`m scared now.
BEHAR: And I`ve been interviewing these Miss America girls all day.
COPPERFIELD: Yes.
BEHAR: And one of the questions I like to ask them is this.
COPPERFIELD: World peace.
BEHAR: No.
COPPERFIELD: World peace.
BEHAR: If you were to come back in another life, let`s say, would you want to be the most gorgeous, the smartest, most brilliant, or the funniest? Which one would you pick?
COPPERFIELD: Most gorgeous, for sure.
BEHAR: You`re the first person to answer that.
COPPERFIELD: Most gorgeous.
BEHAR: None of these girls said that.
COPPERFIELD: And world peace. That`s what I want.
BEHAR: And the most gorgeous. Open the doors immediately, right?
COPPERFIELD: As you know.
BEHAR: But you know what, I think you are one of the more gorgeous.
COPPERFIELD: You really --
BEHAR: I do.
COPPERFIELD: Thank you.
BEHAR: I do.
COPPERFIELD: Thank you.
BEHAR: And I really want to thank you for stopping by.
COPPERFIELD: Thank you.
BEHAR: And enduring the smoke.
COPPERFIELD: Thank you.
BEHAR: Thank you all for watching. And my thanks to Lisa Rinna for sitting in for me in New York. See you back here tomorrow. Goodnight, everybody.
END
