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Joy Behar Page
Too much "Skins"?; Olbermann Out at MSNBC; Interview With John McEnroe
Aired January 24, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Keith Olbermann and MSNBC are going their separate ways. Did his outspokenness have anything to do with his departure? Who knows?
All I know is that here at HLN that would never be an issue. I mean, I say what I want here, because let`s be honest, I mean these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do anything they want to me, but I`m not responsible for that. I mean, I can call the top of the line a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) moron and still they let me work here. That`s why I came here, total artistic freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, MTV`s racy teen drama, "Skins" is racking up the ratings but has advertisers fleeing due to content that some say borders on child porn. So how far is too far in the quest for big ratings?
Then Joy fires up the blogosphere saying the Miss America swimsuit competition sets women back. Was she right or is it a good-natured tradition?
Plus legendary hot head John McEnroe is here.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: So far we`ve only seen one episode of MTV`s racy new show "Skins" and it`s already creating controversy because it features naked teenagers carrying on and talking about drinking and drugs.
In this clip that we`re going to show you won`t see the nudity that everyone`s complaining about but you can see how young the actors are. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no. You are not serious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he`s going to pop his cherry and I nominated you to, you know, help out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I have to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You promised.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, man, you texted. What`s up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m busy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since when are you ever busy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Busy, busy, remember?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes. Overbite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me to discuss this are Tina Wells, CEO for Buzz Marketing Group; Dan Gainor, vice president of business and culture for the Media Research Center; and Rachel Sklar, editor at large for mediaite.com.
Rachel, tell us about the show. How bad is it? How much nudity is there?
RACHEL SKLAR, EDITOR AT LARGE, MEDIAITE.COM: You know, it`s no different than something like "Gossip Girl". It just doesn`t have the sheen of a show like that.
It`s shot in a sort of an indie style, it`s gritty and there`s a lot more solace. You know, you don`t like the characters. You don`t -- you feel bad for them instantly and you see them making terrible decisions. So in that respect, I mean, you know, you see a lot of skin, you don`t see the skin you`re not supposed to see. It`s certainly hinted at. And it`s a lot more realistic.
BEHAR: I heard you see a boy`s back side.
SKLAR: That`s the episode that`s set to air on January 31st.
BEHAR: If it ever airs.
SKLAR: Right.
BEHAR: If it ever airs. But I mean on the scale of 1 to let`s say, Oz, how graphic is this show?
SKLAR: I didn`t watch Oz. But I think it`s, you know, it`s Oz for kids.
SKLAR: It`s Oz for kids. Is that ok, Dan? With you? That this is oz for kids?
DAN GAINOR, MEDIA RESEARCH CENTER: Of course not. No, it`s voyeurism. It`s teen sex. It`s the worst of behavior you could possibly have. If MTV can throw virgins into a volcano and sacrifice them or set puppies on fire they`d do it to get ratings. That`s all this is.
BEHAR: First they would make a puppy strip of all fur.
GAINOR: Yes, exactly. They`re totally shameless and they tried to create a show that has no consequences for the teens and what they`ve done is create a show that has a lot of consequences for MTV.
BEHAR: Ok. Tina, do you agree with him or disagree?
TINA WELLS, CEO, BUZ MARKETING GROUP: I completely disagree. You know I remember in the `90s my so-called life being that kind of show. I agree with what Rachel is saying that the show really highlights behavior that is really so questionable.
And I watched. I screen those episodes. I was very haunted by the characters. I was haunted by the decisions they were making, but it`s realistic. It`s not shiny and glossy. It`s not what we`re used to seeing with teen soaps so we can say this isn`t reality. It`s much more real than "Gossip Girl" and "90210" and I think it`s the reality that`s making people so scared of the show.
BEHAR: Tina, MTV is reportedly worried the show may violate child pornography laws. Isn`t that a problem? The fact that they`re a little bit worried --
WELLS: If it is true -- I have seen the episode in question. I remember, I don`t want to give away the plot line, but let me just say what I saw. I was much more haunted by the story line in what actually happens to this young man and to his family in that episode than I was by that two seconds of seeing his back side on TV. I think that is probably what is missing from the story is just really a great story writing behind "Skins" and the kind of issues that the show is really going to expose.
BEHAR: This is like I read "Playboy" for the articles.
SKLAR: You know, I`m not sure that I would say -- you know "Skins" could be much better. They haven`t figured out whether or not they want to be (INAUDIBLE) -- like truly ridiculous elements to it where you`re like, ok, what are they poking fun at here? Then they skew to some sort of, like, gritty realism.
I think it`s still obviously finding its niche but question whether that niche has includes a shot of a bare back side.
BEHAR: Right. What then? Go ahead Dan.
GAINER: We`ve seen all this before. We`ve seen every -- I mean there`s nothing creative about the show. You know, you`ve seen this in teen movies for 20, 30 years, whether it`s "Risky Business" where they dump a car into a lake or the "Last American Virgin" where the boy goes on a quest to lose his virginity. That`s just stuff they rip off for the first episode.
SKLAR: You`ve seen a lot of stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Dan, let me ask you something, MTV says "Skins" tackles teen issues like teen lesbians discovering her sexuality, this one girl, that sparks -- these type of segments will spark conversations at home about problems teenagers are having. What do you say to that?
GAINOR: Well, they`re certainly trying to spark conversations. I mean, they might as well run the headline "Hot Teen Lesbians". It sounds like a "Girls Gone Wild" video. It`s not a show that`s trying to address anything seriously.
SKLAR: I`m sure that`s just a coincidence, Dan.
GAINOR: They don`t want to they address anything seriously.
BEHAR: It seems exploitive I think is what he`s saying and I kind of go along with it.
GAINOR: Absolutely.
SKLAR: It`s not like MTV hasn`t been exploitive in the past. "Jersey Shore" is not meant to show family values.
BEHAR: But they`re older. The "Jersey Shore" -- they`re like --
GAINOR: They`re adults. Sort of.
BEHAR: These are kids. And what`s their target audience over on MTV?
SKLAR: Well, they have like a TV MA rating so that it`s caution for 17 or younger but apparently 1.2 million people under the age of 18 watched the debut episode.
BEHAR: I heard a lot of their audience, most of their audience is 13 years old.
SKLAR: Yes. I mean, you know, kids know how to find things on TV and the Internet.
BEHAR: Tina don`t these networks have to have some responsibility? Parents can`t control their kids 24/7.
WELLS: I think that parents should --
BEHAR: Go ahead, Tina.
WELLS: I actually think that parents should watch the show, should know about it but I also think that they have to get hip to how to control the content being consumed in their homes. For example, on demand content, making sure it`s password protected, making sure they`re looking at their bills to see what their children are watching.
I know in my house MTV wasn`t allowed. I would sneak and watch it but the values of my family and home for stronger than anything I saw in, like, "Spring Break" and "Whip Cream Bikinis". So I think that we -- we can`t take away a parental responsibility for making sure that even if their children were to see this content or read something in a magazine or see something they`re not in their home that their family values are strong enough to overcome something.
BEHAR: I know. That`s true. That`s true but again, the parents; I mean I feel sorry for parents today. I mean there`s so much stuff going against what you`re trying to raise your kids to be.
SKLAR: Well, here`s the good side. I can`t see how a kid would watch this and think, oh, I want that to happen to me. This is the idea.
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
SKLAR: The characters are not likable. The decisions are not good. If anything --
WELLS: At all.
Sklar: -- it made me cringe. I feel like it would have made my 15- year-old self cringe as well.
BEHAR: You know Dan --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: This show is based on a show in England and it`s a very popular show in England. I mean, today Whoopi was saying she knows about the show. She says it`s a terrific show. Why is it that it`s a terrific show in England and it`s not a terrific show here? Why do the Americans corrupt these shows?
WELLS: I think that we are --
BEHAR: Dan, Dan -- I`m talking to Dan for a second. Take it easy a minute, Tina. Go ahead.
GAINOR: We have a different culture here. We actually have a more traditional values culture in our country than a lot of places elsewhere in the world. Europe, England particularly, they have different view of different morality and you look at this show. This show is trying to do what MTV has been trying to do for years, which is just exploit to get ratings.
I mean, it`s not the "Jersey Shore" but it`s worse because these are child actors. This is child actors and the creator says, you know, what this delivers, what the show delivers is kids. That`s right. It delivers underage --
WELLS: Is it worse -- would it be worse if it was a reality show than if they`re actors?
GAINOR: Would it be worse? It`s worse any time you`re involving kids. I mean, that`s to exploit people, you know, young children and then to exploit the audience in turn who are many young children, literally more than a million young children. That`s -- how MTV executives can live with themselves and frankly how the advertisers --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you`ll be happy to know that a lot of the advertisers are pulling out. Taco Bell we understand pulled out already.
SKLAR: Subway pulled out. Schick I think.
BEHAR: Wrigley and Taco Bell have -- have pulled out. So all of you, should the show stay or go? What do you think?
SKLAR: I think, I`m going to take the optimistic view here. At the very least, this is a warning bell for parents. If parents can`t claim plausible deniability anymore that this might go on, at the very least you can signal them maybe they should, like, keep a little eye on where their kids are going and who they`re hanging out with.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Tina, do you think they should take the show off or keep it on? And Dan, same question.
WELLS: I think they should keep it on. I think they should keep it on and I think that there should be a serious --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes, keep it on.
WELDS: -- and I think there should be a serious discussion with parents and their children about what their value system is and what`s appropriate and -- and why these actions aren`t really appropriate actions.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, if it leads to that. What about that, Dan, if the parents are watching it with their kids and saying, look at these depraved little jerks, I mean, it could work actually, don`t you think?
DAN GAINER: Well, I mean, you know, in an ideal family unit, yes, it could. But for a lot of families, what they should do, I mean, they -- there`s no way the show should be on and the advertisers and MTV, Viacom and all should understand the American public is not happy.
BEHAR: Well, ok. All right, thank you very much, everyone, interesting discussion.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, George Clooney says he`s done with marriage forever.
And legendary hot head John McEnroe drops by to pay a friendly visit.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Keith Olbermann, host of MSNBC`s "Countdown" signed off for the last time on Friday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH OLBERMANN, FORMER MSNBC HOST, "COUNTDOWN": This is the last edition of "Countdown". There were many occasions particularly in the last two and a half years we are all that that surrounded the show, but never the show itself, was just too much for me. But your support and loyalty and if I may use the word insistence, ultimately required that I keep going.
Again, all of my greatest thanks. Widen the shot out just a bit so we can do one of these the last time. Thank you, Brian. Good night and good luck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: The abrupt departure led to many questions. Did he quit, was he fired, did he quit before he was fired? And why?
Here with me now are, Dana Milbank, a writer for the "Washington Post" and the author of "Tears of a Clown." I believe that is about Glenn Beck. S.E. Cupp, conservative commentator and co-author of "Why You`re Wrong about the Right". I believe that is about the left.
Ok, Dana -- Dana you used to be a regular over there at MSNBC, right?
DANA MILBANK, WASHINGTON POST: I -- I was for a few years, yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
MILBANK: Yes.
BEHAR: So were you surprised that this happened or was it a long time coming?
MILBINK: It -- it, well, I`m not surprised. And I -- and I think it was inevitable. And in fact, I think it`s all your fault, Joy.
BEHAR: Why?
MILBANK: You have become such a dominant force in cable news, you`ve driven out Larry King, Campbell Brown, Keith Olbermann, soon Hannity, O`Reilly, they`re all -- you`ve -- you`ve taken all the oxygen out of the air and they can`t -- they just can`t compete with you.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: That`s very sweet.
MILBANK: And with that -- no, you know, I think in this case it -- it may be -- it may that there`s less there than meets the eye. I think we`re all looking for some grand explanation here. And the fact is that Keith Olbermann has been doing that show longer than he`s been doing anything else in his broadcasting career.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
MILBANK: So yes, there have been differences through the year. I don`t -- I wouldn`t take it as any grand symbol that MSNBC is changing in its ways or that there was some grand --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Really?
MILBANK: -- spectacular fight that drove this about.
BEHAR: I don`t know. What do you think, S.E.? Is there any question that he was pushed out? Come on.
S.E. CUPP, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: No. I -- I think maybe it wasn`t some grand spectacular fight. Maybe it was like 1,100 grand spectacular fights --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
CUPP: -- over the past five years.
BEHAR: Right.
CUPP: I mean, I -- I don`t know, but you know, the rumor that this was more personality than -- than anything else. And I don`t think he`s particularly well-liked. And I don`t think that`s a secret. And -- and maybe they came to -- to blows one final time.
But I will say this, I think, you know, as someone who completely disagrees with most of what Keith Olbermann says and does, he was really good at tapping into a particular contingent of Americans that was absolutely horrified at President Bush --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Right.
CUPP: -- and the war in Iraq.
BEHAR: True.
CUPP: Absolute -- he was brilliant at it. I think that era is by gone, though, and I think even if you`re on the far left you kind of just want to move on. And I`m not sure that he adjusted particularly well to the new era.
Look at someone like Bill Maher who you would consider probably more liberal than conservative, he still takes a swipe every now and then at President Obama. Just like Bill O`Reilly, more conservative than liberal, still praises President Obama from time to time. You have to make adjustments. I`m not sure Olbermann did that.
BEHAR: That`s an interesting point, don`t you think, Dana. That maybe he`s --
MILBAN: All right, yes.
BEHAR: -- he`s a throwback a little bit.
MILBANK: Well, in -- in a sense. I mean, it`s always easier and -- and more fun, particularly in this business to be in opposition than to be the defender.
So this is a great time at Fox News with President Obama and the White House although, we just reached the point where Republicans actually have some power again in Washington. So you`d think that would reinvigorate the sort of Olbermann view of the world.
So you know, I`m not necessarily disagreeing. I think there`s a -- there`s a variety of -- of factors going in here. I was just suggesting there`s not any one large one. Certainly looking at Keith`s viewership numbers over the year -- over recent years would not suggest that he`d -- that he`d fallen back.
BEHAR: But what about that fact that Comcast has come into the picture?
CUPP: Right.
BEHAR: And most network heads are conservative, although you can`t really say that he was thrown off because of his politics. Because you have Ed Schultz and Rachel --
(CROSS TALK)
CUPP: Sure the whole line up.
BEHAR: -- Maddow and you have Lawrence O`Donnell --
CUPP: Right.
BEHAR: -- are still there.
But it`s not quite the same as he -- as he was.
CUPP: Right. And -- and people happen --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: And that was the exact thing that we`re talking about, though, Dana and you. And that he was fiery --
(CROSS TALK)
CUPP: Right.
BEHAR: And that he was -- he was bombastic. That`s exactly what got his ratings up.
CUPP: That`s a good thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
CUPP: I mean, people don`t want to tune into the milk toast news reader anymore. I mean, there are just is an appetite for it. So I don`t think this was that he was too opinionated, I`m just not sure his particular opinion was relevant anymore. He -- he was relevant eight years ago. And -- and more than anyone else was, I think. But you have to find a way to adjust.
BEHAR: Right.
CUPP: People at Comcast have been denying that that had anything to do with it although the timing is curious (ph).
BEHAR: Yes. But you know, Dana, I feel as though we`ve lost an important voice on the left. I don`t think there are that many. I don`t know that Fox News would fire somebody because they felt his personality was obnoxious.
They don`t fire Glenn Beck. He`s not the most popular cat over at Fox. Let`s face it.
MILBANK: No. And I mean, there`s always this question of you know equivalence --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I read that Rupert Murdoch can`t stand him. Is that true?
MILBANK: Well, he`s causing problems. Glenn Beck is causing problems for Fox and for Rupert Murdoch in a way that Olbermann never did for MSNBC in terms of the advertisers who have been lost and -- and certainly, Keith by his own admission went over the top a couple of times, nothing at all compared to what Glenn Beck has been doing.
But -- there`s no question that the style that Olbermann is doing, the style that -- that we`re seeing, the bombast as -- as you guys were just talking about, is what works right now. There`s no question about it.
But I don`t expect that would -- that would necessarily change at MSNBC. I -- I don`t think the ideology would necessarily change.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: What`s going to happen to him next, do you think?
MILBANK: Oh, I -- I suspect there`s a great Web venture out there for him. I -- you know, when you have a million plus viewers at night you`re not just going to fade away quietly.
BEHAR: Well, he -- he has to stay off of TV for six to nine months.
CUPP: Yes.
BEHAR: That doesn`t mean he has to stay off the radio --
(CROSS TALK)
CUPP: Right.
BEHAR: -- or -- or the Internet.
CUPP: Or Twitter. Right.
BEHAR: Right. He`ll be back. I don`t think this guy is going away so fast.
CUPP: Oh yes. No, probably not. I think he really enjoyed doing what he did and having some influence.
MILBANK: But he is still scared of you Joy, there`s no question.
BEHAR: I wish he would come on my show. You know I was a fan of -- of Keith. I like anybody who speaks on the left and speaks with such force. I enjoy that. Let`s face it.
Ok, guys, stay here. We`ll continue this.
Another little discussion about politics when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my political panel, Dana Milbank and S.E. Cupp.
Ok. Rahm Emanuel was kicked off the ballot for Chicago mayor for not being a resident. How many curse words do you think he let out after hearing that, Dana?
MILBANK: Yes. I don`t think you`d be able to put much of that on the show. But this was a huge surprise. I don`t think it`s necessarily the last word. There is an appeal. He had won earlier. Everybody was just questioning would he, in fact, win on the first round or would there have to be a run-up? This is just a shocker in the world of politics so there`s yes, definitely foul language coming out of Chicago.
BEHAR: I know. Well, you know, we`ll see what happens with Rahm. We`re going to watch --
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: Four words, countdown with Rahm Emanuel.
BEHAR: I love it. Perfect. It`s a perfect fit.
CUPP: right.
BEHAR: I know. I love that. Yes. Start a campaign.
All right. Let`s talk about the State of the Union tomorrow night. The Democrats and Republicans, S.E., are going to be sitting together, singing Kumbaya. It`s so great. Do you think that`s going to work?
CUPP: It`s so lame. As if on Wednesday morning we`re going to get a bipartisan health care bill because Chuck Schumer and Tom Coburn were holding hands the night before. It`s so stupid and a waste of time and energy. I really --
BEHAR: Isn`t it more symbolic, Dana, to not see one group on one side then the other? They sit there, sit on their hands --
CUPP: I like that, Joy. I want to see them on opposing sides. They represent different things.
BEHAR: Well, they`re trying to be bipartisan now and get the country together.
CUPP: I`m not.
MILBANK: I disagree. I mean, it is symbolic. But what we need is the sort of symbolism. It doesn`t cost any more or take any extra time for them to cross the aisle and Americans don`t see this ridiculous childish seesaw going on.
The problem in Washington is that Democrats don`t realize the Republicans are human beings and vice versa. And we`ve reached a point where they don`t socialize together. They see each other as these sort of demons.
Just sit next to the guy. There`s proposals now to take it further, send them on joint retreats. Mark Udall, a senator from Colorado suggested outward bound. I want to see them all on a sailboat together.
BEHAR: I want to see them down the bar in --
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: Come on. This isn`t Montessori school where they have to sit boy, girl, boy, girl to get work done. This is tough business. And frankly, these are issues that we are very passionate about as a country. Watering them down for the sake of new tone I think is silly.
BEHAR: Ok. What about the fact that Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito -- touchy, touchy, touchy -- he got reprimanded last year at the State of the Union and this year he`s planning on not going.
CUPP: Yes. I think it looks petulant, right? I didn`t like Obama`s scolding of the Supreme Court in their presence.
BEHAR: Why not?
CUPP: But I don`t think you trade bad behavior with bad behavior. No, I mean, I think it looks unseemly for the Supreme Court judges to sort of, you know, boycott the State of the Union.
BEHAR: But you know, but just going back to that, Dana, last year, don`t you think that was an incredible thing for the Supreme Court to pass that law? That corporations can just give as much money as they want to campaigns? I mean, that`s the end of the Republic in my opinion.
MILBANK: Well, the ruling is hugely controversial. It was even more controversial of Obama to come out and suggest that it was allowing in foreign contributions. You actually saw Alito mouth out that it wasn`t so.
But I do think it is petulant of him to avoid it. Usually only three or four of the justices come anyway. It`s an awkward scene because of the seesaw going on we mentioned. They`re standing in the middle with the joint chiefs not knowing whether to stand up or sit down. We finally do have an arrangement where they`re actually going to have a mixed crowd in the house. He looks like he`s fighting the last war from last year.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok. Well, I can`t wait for Michele Bachmann`s rebuttal.
MILBANK: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m going to wait for that one. That is going to be good.
Ok. Thank you guys, very much. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: OK. Day eight in the saga of Ricky Gervais and we`re still talking about it. Over the weekend, Judd Apatow went after Gervais during his monologue at the Producers Guild Awards, calling the comedian`s Golden Globes jokes mean and unfair. Let`s talk about this with John McEnroe, Hall of Fame tennis player. Sarah Bernard, host of "The Thread" on Yahoo. And comedian Kevin Meaney. Hello, guys.
Why did you laugh, John, when I said Hall of Famer?
JOHN MCENROE, FORMER TENNIS PLAYER: Because it was so long ago.
BEHAR: It doesn`t matter.
(CROSSTALK)
MCENROE: A legend in my own mind. No, I thought I was just laughing because I was just so happy to be here.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s good. OK.
MCENROE: Yes.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s talk about Gervais. Do you think -- Kevin, you`re a comic. Do you think that it`s bad form for one comedian -- he`s funny, Apatow, he does funny movies -- to go after another funny person?
KEVIN MEANEY, COMEDIAN: I guess a lot of people didn`t see Judd Apatow`s earlier work as a standup. I mean, because he used to open up for me years ago.
BEHAR: He did?
MEANEY: Yes, up in Connecticut.
BEHAR: Seriously?
MEANEY: And he had, he had, you know, some interesting material that he did back then.
BEHAR: Meaning nasty, mean stuff?
MEANEY: Yes, yes, absolutely. And I`ll go on the record with that. How do you like that?
BEHAR: Do you remember anything --
MCENROE: It`s a little different when you`re doing standup in front of seven people than the Golden Globes? I mean, no offense. Maybe yours were big theaters. I`m sorry. I didn`t mean it --
(CROSSTALK)
MCENROE: When you said way back when before you hit it big.
MEANEY: I was the headliner.
MCENROE: How many people were at these gigs?
MEANEY: Probably a couple of hundred.
MCENROE: Couple hundred.
(CROSSTALK)
MCENROE: A couple hundred, let`s say there`s a couple hundred. Is that the same as the Golden Globes?
MEANEY: Well, the Golden Globes is like this fraud, anyway, allegedly. You know, it`s all -- it`s not--
BEHAR: Listen to what Apatow said. OK, I want to read this to you. He said Gervais made a joke about Tim Allen, who was standing next to Tom Hanks. Who looks good standing next to Tom Hanks? We all look like a piece of [EXPLETIVE DELETED] standing next to Tom Hanks. Warren Buffett would look like a piece of [EXPLETIVE DELETED] next to Tom Hanks."
Well, you know what? Brad Pitt wouldn`t look bad next to Tom Hanks. Rob Lowe would look good next to Tom Hanks.
(CROSSTALK)
MCENROE: That happened to be sort of funny, because Tom Hanks is a great guy, No. 1, who`s got -- she`s actually for a guy who`s been at least -- I know him a little bit, lucky enough, to have been as successful as he`s been, that he`s pretty -- the ego is not --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He`s a sweetheart. We know that.
MCENROE: And that happened to be funny, I thought, when Ricky Gervais -- I thought he went over the line with some other stuff, but that happened to be funny. Tim Allen, you guys are comedians. But I`ve heard that he thinks rather highly of himself. And that`s sort of an inside joke. I could be totally wrong--
SARAH BERNARD, HOST, "THE THREAD": But don`t you think the logic of it all is totally ridiculous? I mean, he`s saying you can`t make fun of Tim Allen, he also went on to say that because he made a lot of money essentially is one of the reasons why you can`t make fun of him, because he was so successful, "Toy Story 3" and all this. And then he was saying you can`t make fun of "The Tourist" because he hadn`t seen it. As if no one has ever talked about a movie they haven`t seen and poked fun at it.
BEHAR: Exactly.
BERNARD: And then he called--
BEHAR: If it`s a bomb, it`s a bomb. Why can`t you just say it?
BERNARD: I know, everyone says that.
BEHAR: Yes.
BERNARD: He called a -- a member of the walking dead. He`s about to get married again, and Hugh Hefner tweeted that it was a great night and everyone had a blast. So he has a sense of humor and Judd Apatow doesn`t.
BEHAR: Well, he has to have a sense of humor. I mean, marrying a 24- year-old girl, and he`s 150.
OK, moving on. New details in the bitter divorce between Kelsey and Camille Grammer came out during the finale of "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," including the fact that Kelsey`s new girlfriend is already calling herself Mrs. Grammer, and so is Kelsey. Here`s what Camille said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMILLE GRAMMER: When I got to our apartment building, the doorman looked at me and asked me who I was. And I said, OK, I`m Mrs. Grammer. And they looked at me. They said, yes, no, I`m Mrs. Grammer. They said, no, you`re not. So I had to show my I.D. How mortifying is that. I was devastated because somebody was out -- somebody is in the apartment as Mrs. Grammer. It`s just not me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Just for the record, that has brought tears to my staff. They are crying.
(CROSSTALK)
MEANEY: I`m going to show up at that apartment building and say I`m Mrs. Grammer. I`m going to get all dressed up.
MCENROE: What strip joint did Camille and Kelsey meet at?
BEHAR: I don`t know. But you know, as a woman, as a woman -- nobody`s great in this picture. That`s true.
MCENROE: This is the toughest category here, this -- to find the silver lining in this, you know, this cloud, this storm that`s approaching for poor Kelsey among these other poor women.
BEHAR: You know, it`s annoying when you`re in the middle of the divorce, you don`t have the divorce yet, now the new poutan (ph) comes into the picture, and she`s already calling herself Mrs. Grammer, whatever she`s calling herself.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean, it`s obnoxious.
BERNARD: She was an airline stewardess, is that correct?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
MEANEY: She was a soft porn star.
BERNARD: No, not Camille. The new one.
MEANEY: Oh, the new one.
BERNARD: Yes. I mean, they`re getting more and more -- they`re getting better and better. But I`m just saying, of course she`s trying to do that, and Camille should obviously just let him go. Why is she fighting this? He`s awful. They`re both awful. It`s just -- I don`t even think we need to talk about it.
BEHAR: Yes, we do. We have airtime to fill here.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, here`s another thing.
MCENROE: Aren`t you worried about Kelsey, actually, though? I mean, he`s -- doesn`t -- I mean, he`s a great actor. But the fact that this is going on--
BEHAR: He is. He`s very good, yes.
MCENROE: And he sort of walked out of this other craziness with Camille, and then all of a sudden he`s happy as can be with this new woman, and she`s pregnant, and it`s unbelievable.
BERNARD: That was a good imitation.
BEHAR: Well, you know, you guys are divorced. I don`t know about you, Sarah. You`re not, right?
BERNARD: Not yet.
BEHAR: But John is divorced. We know about that divorce.
MCENROE: That`s correct.
BEHAR: Not a pretty picture. And yours was even more bizarre. He`s left his wife for a man.
MCENROE: What?
BEHAR: Yes, he left his wife for a man.
MEANEY: You have a problem with that?
MCENROE: Mum`s the word. OK, I don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: This is a fascinating panel.
BEHAR: A wonderful guy, he knows him for years. It`s a great story. Casey, isn`t it?
MEANEY: Yes, Casey, yes. He`s very handsome.
BEHAR: But now, all these people, what`s his name, Jesse James is another one who just married Cat Von Deese (ph). Let me get this straight. So all of a sudden this guy -- Jesse James, and Kelsey, are as happy as can be and telling the world -- isn`t that mean?
BERNARD: It`s aggressively happy. I don`t feel like, I mean, obviously he`s doing it to counteract the fact that she`s on this show. And for better or worse, she`s getting a lot of ratings. I think this was the highest rated of all of the Real house -- I keep wanting to call them "Desperate Housewives," but it`s "Real Housewives."
MCENROE: And also, wasn`t Kelsey the one who encouraged --
BERNARD: It was his idea.
MCENROE: (inaudible) to do the "Housewives of Beverly Hills?"
BERNARD: Exactly.
MCENROE: So shouldn`t he be getting half of her money for this?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: He has got enough money for all of us. More even than you have, I think.
MCENROE: Way more than I have.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes. What do you think about it, Kevin?
MEANEY: Well, I think that, you know, it`s definitely sad that, you know, when you break up like that, but you know, you do have to move on. But he`s moving, you know, he moved her in and got her pregnant. You know, my daughter, she`s 11. She watches this every week. "Desperate Housewives."
BEHAR: She does.
MEANEY: I mean, "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," you know.
BEHAR: Well, see, that`s one thing you didn`t have to worry about, getting the guy pregnant, right?
MEANEY: Well, I tried. But that--
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Yes. Speaking of marriage, George gorgeous Clooney shared with Piers Morgan that he`ll never get married again after hearing about the Kelsey Grammers. Can you blame him? He just doesn`t want to do it--
MCENROE: I didn`t know he was ever married, first of all.
BEHAR: He was married once to a woman named Talia Balsam -- probably Marty Balsam`s daughter, I think -- in the `90s. And so now he`s off of it.
MEANEY: She must have been really mean.
BERNARD: Do you know who she is, though?
BEHAR: Who is she?
BERNARD: She is on "Mad Men." She`s actually married to John Slattery--
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: And on the show, she plays Mona, his ex-wife. Now, if I were once married to George Clooney, I would talk about it every day, all day, to anyone who knew me. I don`t understand why we all don`t know this. You know?
(CROSSTALK)
MEANEY: I always thought he was -- I never thought he was married.
BEHAR: He had been married, and now he`s sworn it off. I mean, you both -- well, you`re not married again because it`s not legal in New York.
MEANEY: No. Once it is legal, we`ll get married.
BEHAR: You will?
MEANEY: Yes.
BEHAR: And John, you`ve married twice now, right?
MCENROE: This is my second marriage. Hopefully, this one--
MEANEY: To a woman?
MCENROE: The triumph of hope over experience.
BEHAR: No, to a tennis ball.
MEANEY: I wanted to know.
MCENROE: Since you can`t marry a man, it`s got to be a woman, OK? Call George Clooney up to see will he ever marry a woman, maybe who knows. You know?
BEHAR: But John, when you divorced --
MCENROE: Anything`s possible.
BEHAR: -- your first wife, Tatum O`Neal--
MCENROE: Tatum O`Neal, yes.
BEHAR: Tatum, which was quite an acrimonious and contentious divorce if I recall.
MCENROE: Well, it was because we had three kids that we had differing views over.
BEHAR: Right. So didn`t you think I`m never going to do this again, and yet you did?
MCENROE: That is absolutely true. The last thing in the world I wanted to do was to get married. I said to myself, OK, I`m an old fart in my mid-`30s, so I`m going to meet some 20-something-year-old girls who don`t have anything to do but have fun. And lo and behold, Patty Smyth came into my life, who you know--
BEHAR: I like her very much.
MCENROE: And she`s a good girl--
BEHAR: Lovely.
MCENROE: -- and she`s been -- we`ve been together for 16 and a half years.
(CROSSTALK)
MCENROE: And I`m a one-woman man.
MEANEY: OK.
MCENROE: Kevin, is that OK?
MEANEY: That`s fine with me.
MCENROE: Hope triumphs over experience.
MEANEY: I`m a one-man man.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, one more story. Remember, I mentioned earlier in the show today, if you were watching, MTV has come under fire for its controversial new show, "Skins," which apparently shows kids under 18 partially nude, having sex, drinking and using drugs. Have you seen this show yet? It`s only aired one episode as far as I know.
BERNARD: Yes.
BEHAR: What do you know about it?
BERNARD: Well, the interesting thing is, this is a remake of a British show, which was far racier apparently, and had a lot more nudity and pushed the envelope even more. So in comparison, it`s rather tame. But what`s funny is, MTV obviously programmed this because they knew this controversy was going to happen. So that`s kind of going according to plan. But now the advertisers are pulling out, and the PTC is accusing them of possible child pornography issues, which obviously sounds ridiculous on the face of it. But the difference between let`s say this and the "Jersey Shore," which has plenty of nudity--
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: -- is that the actors are all under age.
BEHAR: Right, right.
BERNARD: And in "The Jersey Shore," they`re not. Those guys, believe it or not, are actually over 21.
BEHAR: OK. Would you let your kids watch this show?
MCENROE: No, I prefer -- I`m going to --
BEHAR: Did not or did?
MCENROE: I would not. I`d prefer not. That doesn`t mean they`re not going to. But I`m like Joe Biden, did you see the other week when he was telling his granddaughter, like you cannot go out with any guys until you`re 30 years old. I have an 11-year-old and a 15-year-old girl, right, among others, I have 19- and 25-year-old girls as well. But I would prefer that they don`t date any men. There`s only one thing a guy wants to do.
BEHAR: What?
MCENROE: Can I say? What time is your show on?
BEHAR: Come on. They want to --
(CROSSTALK)
MCENROE: You know damn well what they want.
BEHAR: I know.
BERNARD: But let`s be realistic. If they don`t have this show, it`s not going to keep them from doing it.
BEHAR: Kevin, would you like your daughter to watch this show?
MEANEY: Absolutely. No, no, I don`t.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: All right. Thank you, guys, very much. John, you stay put. I have more with you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: He`s a tennis legend, sports commentator and sometime actor who is known for being hot under the collar. Here`s a classic clip of him from Wimbledon in 1981. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCENROE: You can`t be serious, man. You cannot be serious. That ball was on the line. Chalk blew up! It was clearly in! How can you possibly call that out? Now he`s walking over -- everyone knows it`s in in the whole stadium, and you call it out?
You guys are the absolute pits of the world. You know that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Can we say decaf? OK. With me now is the incomparable John McEnroe.
OK, John, have you had any anger management classes since then?
MCENROE: Let me ask you a question. Is the pope Catholic?
BEHAR: I`m afraid so. So you`ve had a few?
MCENROE: I`ve had a few. Some have been court-ordered.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Seriously?
MCENROE: Seriously. Yes. But some were voluntary. You know, I thought that maybe the upbringing that I had that I thought was normal, living in New York City, was perhaps a little unusual to some people, like the people over in England.
BEHAR: Yes, I see. But I mean, your career was based a lot, besides the fact that you were a great player. No one would pay attention to any of it if you were a lousy player.
MCENROE: Exactly, so let`s start with that premise.
BEHAR: But I mean, how much of it was an act? Or were you always really that angry?
MCENROE: The first six, seven, eight years of the career, I firmly believe all of it was not an act at all. I was -- I wanted to change the sport.
BEHAR: You were serious.
MCENROE: I don`t know if you like sports, Joy, if you watch football or baseball, for example, but if you`re in the middle of the field, the football players that are about to go into a play, they`ve hit each other. They don`t go, hey, how are you doing? They`re saying things that you can`t repeat on the air, but suddenly tennis players have to -- they want to put us in a--
BEHAR: Why is that? Why is that?
MCENROE: I don`t know. I guess it`s sort of that country club sport that only the upper class and snobs played. And that was--
BEHAR: What about polo? Do they curse at each other in polo?
MCENROE: I don`t think they`re allowed to curse in polo. And golf is the other sport that sadly fall into that category, that we have to sort of be compared and thought of in a certain way. And I wanted to change that, and guys like Connors, Nastase, among others, taught me a lot and made me realize that we could be treated the same way other athletes are treated. Baseball games, the managers go out, they are screaming at the umpire and they`re kicking dirt at their feet and throwing stuff at them. And they`re saying -- everyone`s like, yes, you tell them! And then I do it and then they compare me to Charles Manson and Attila the Hun.
BEHAR: That is a little much, but Charles Manson is really over the top.
MCENROE: It was in 1981, there was an article where they -- there was a survey done, the most hated people of the last 100 years or more. Charles Manson was one. I was two. And Attila the Hun was three.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK, so, wait a second. That must be why -- can you identify with Keith Olbermann? That guy is getting a bad rap now because they let him go at MSNBC, and they`re saying it was because he had an obnoxious personality.
MCENROE: I can agree with that.
BEHAR: That he has an obnoxious personality?
MCENROE: I mean, I don`t know the guy. I mean, to me, he would like to -- let people know that (ph) (inaudible) an obnoxious personality, and I think it`s also, I`d like to think that I`ve learned a little something over the years. And I don`t think people -- I was just disliked. I had a following. People supported me. It was just the umpires I had a problem with. Maybe he just had problems with the NBC executives. I don`t know.
BEHAR: But were you difficult to work with? Because they`re saying he was difficult to work with.
MCENROE: That`s what I`m saying. I`d like to think I was a pussycat to work with.
BEHAR: Somehow I don`t believe that.
MCENROE: Even at CNBC, I know one of your people is here producing, your -- having -- working for your show now. And I think that he`d even tell you that I was a rather easy person to deal with.
BEHAR: I find you very easy. Why are these -- why are these cookies here for you?
MCENROE: Those cookies are there for me because I`m a big commercial spokesman. But I only endorse the things that I really like, Joy.
BEHAR: And you really love Oreos?
MCENROE: I do really love Oreos. But I work out a lot, too, though. So I mean, I realize that you can`t have your cake and eat it, too. I`ve got to do a little of both, but they just had a commercial on the air that was on during the football playoffs. And even though I`m old school, I used to use a wood racket. And these are called the Oreo doublestuffed heads and tails. I like the ones, the old -- just had one flavor, the old chocolate in the middle. I don`t need doublestuffeds or heads and tails. But since I`m endorsing it and did a commercial, it is a wonderful thing. And see--
BEHAR: All right now--
MCENROE: Can I say one last thing about it?
BEHAR: Sure. I only have a second.
MCENROE: Oh, a second. A second, a real second. It brought me my daughter. She hates football. It can bring families together. You bring some Oreos and milk, you can watch the football game.
BEHAR: OK. It`s a little bit of a stretch, but whatever. Thanks, John, very much.
MCENROE: I tried.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll be right back. It`s still a stretch, but hey, want some cookies?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For the first time and maybe the last, I was one of the judges for this year`s Miss America pageant. A couple of days ago, I commented on the swimsuit competition. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: They all looked great in the bathing suit. There they are now. I mean, tell the truth, we can`t get enough of it. We want to look at them. We`re searching for cellulite, it doesn`t exist. Men love the show because of the bathing suit competition. But you have to admit, it`s a throwback. It`s a throwback. It`s pre-Gloria Steinem. It`s not -- we don`t want to watch women parading around in their bathing suits.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s old news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s old news.
I want to set the record straight. Fox TV said I blasted Miss America. I didn`t. I only blasted the swimsuit competition. Get your facts straight over there, OK? I was delighted to be a judge. In fact, I had a blast.
Joining me now to discuss this controversy is Miss America 2008, Kirsten Haglund.
Now, let me ask you a couple of questions about this, because you see I`ve stirred the pot with thing swimsuit thing. During your reign as Miss America, did you have to speak to people? You had to go out and talk, right?
KIRSTEN HAGLUND, MISS AMERICA `08: Absolutely. That was the prime part of my job. That`s what I did every day.
BEHAR: And that`s the bulk of the interview judging part, by the way. That is the most points, is the interview, and the talent also is very high.
So you went out and spoke to people. Did you have to wear a gown, because all of you look so beautiful in those gowns?
HAGLUND: Yes, you have to wear your gown quite frequently, but I will say you never appear during your year in a swimsuit, not in a photo shoot, not on a runway, most definitely. And all year long, you are in a business suit. And my platform was speaking out about eating disorders, awareness, prevention and education. So I got this question a lot, talking about the swimsuit, is it relevant, is it proper, and I had to talk about that issue quite frequently.
BEHAR: So then if you don`t ever have to wear the swimsuit again, you do have to sing because that was your talent. Miss America this year has to play the piano. What is the exact purpose of the swimsuit competition, besides trying to get ratings? Is there any reason?
HAGLUND: Well, part of it is tradition. The Miss America pageant started out as a bathing beauty competition in Atlantic City, New Jersey in 1921. But also it`s to see that the woman is physically fit. I will say that having struggled with an eating disorder, preparing for the swimsuit competition was extremely empowering for me, because I worked very hard to get fit, to get muscle tone, and not just be a stick. I know that a lot of young women start treating their bodies right, learning good habits of diet and exercise in preparing for this competition. And we all know how hard it gets as we get older to create healthy lifestyle habits. So it`s a way to start creating those habits early. And I found it personally very empowering.
BEHAR: But that was good for you because you had had an eating disorder and then you fixed that up and you looked gorgeous in a bathing suit. A lot of girls out there are looking at it, and they`re thinking the only way that I will look like that is to get an eating disorder, because they can`t really get to that goal. Most girls don`t look like the girls in a Miss America contest. Isn`t that kind of unfair to put that out there?
HAGLUND: Well, some girls are going to look at that and think that. Some are not. But it`s a fine line. If we take away the swimsuit competition from the Miss America pageant, we also have to stop Victoria`s Secret fashion show from airing on television. We have to tone down a lot of the hypersexual (inaudible) of women in advertising.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No, that`s a little different.
HAGLUND: But they`re parading around in lingerie too. So it`s like where do we draw the line.
BEHAR: I don`t see the analogy there, because the Miss Victoria -- what is it, Victoria`s Secret--
HAGLUND: Victoria`s Secret fashion show.
BEHAR: That`s a company that`s selling lingerie. Miss America is supposed to be representing America. You`re supposed to go out there and have class and not really be objectified. I think they only do it to attract the straight male audience and no other reason, for ratings.
HAGLUND: Well, and this is indeed the fact. Part of it is pure economy. In 1996, the pageant considered scrapping the swimsuit competition. They polled America, and 87 percent of Americans said they wanted to keep the swimsuit competition in. So they were responding to public opinion.
And Joy, I would want to change it too, the fact that, you know, this is what sells in our country. You know, I`m not a personal fan of it either, but it promotes health and I think that`s good.
BEHAR: And can I just say, the fact that we are showing those pictures now makes me mad. That we are showing those pictures on my show right now annoys me, because that does not make my point. It just shows that people want to see this and the company wants them to see it, because the ratings will go up.
Thank you very much, Kirsten, and thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
