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Joy Behar Page
Divorce Wars; Why Women Cheat; State of the Union
Aired January 26, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Good evening, my fellow Americans. After more than 15 months on the air I am happy to report that our future is hopeful. Our time slot is new. And our journey goes forward.
I would like to congratulate the men and women who work so tirelessly to produce this show each and every day. They work diligently behind the scenes to make me look good. But there is still a lot of work to be done if we are to avoid falling behind other talk shows.
Thank you. God bless you. And God bless HLN.
Are you crying again? Man up, you big baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, as Kelsey Grammer and Steve Harvey fight brutal battles with ex and soon to be ex-wives, an eye-opening study says two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women mainly because guys behave badly. So if guys are usually at fault for the split why do they always seem to come out ahead?
And with controversy swirling around MTV`s "Skins" the racy TV show loses half its viewers. Meanwhile, "Glee" considers toning down its sexual content because of its young audience. So have the parents won?
Then "Project Runway`s" fashion guru Tim Gunn is here.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: With high-profile couples like Kelsey and Camille Grammer, and Eva Longoria and Tony Parker going through some very public divorces these days, it seems husbands everywhere are behaving badly. But a new study shows that it`s women who are most often initiating divorces. This is new.
Men may want a pre-nup, but women want an exit strategy.
With me now to talk about it are Marla Maples, actress, songwriter, and radio host of "Awakening with Marla, which I`m sure a lot of people would like to do; Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist and contributor to healthguru.com; and Ericka Souter staff writer for "Us Weekly". Welcome to the show, you guys.
Marla, let me start with you. Are you surprised that it`s more women who initiate the divorce? Didn`t you think it was the opposite?
MARLA MAPLES, DONALD TRUMP`S EX WIFE: I think in today`s world women are just getting so darn independent and happy on their own, they`re finding their own fulfillment and they`re probably not willing to take a relationship that`s not giving them the love and support the way they might have years ago.
BEHAR: Well, men -- Ericka, men often stand to lose more in a divorce. They lose custody of the children and they lose money if they`re the ones who are making all the money. So maybe that`s what stops them.
ERICKA SOUTER, STAFF WRITER, "US WEEKLY": It`s all about dollar signs. And if you stand to risk hundreds of millions of dollars you stay in the marriage and you have your cake and eat it too. You go out and have your fun. Your wife`s willing to put up with it. Why ruin a good thing?
BEHAR: I know. Well, like Tiger Woods, let`s talk about him for a second because He was cheating on the sneak, or so he thought. And Elin in the divorce settlement she got $110 million.
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Is that all?
BEHAR: I know. Not a bad day.
MAPLES: We could know how to spread that money around a little bit, couldn`t we, Joy?
BEHAR: I mean, really. And it was not really -- until he started with the e-mailing and the cheating. It was pretty good.
GARDERE: But I don`t think it`s so much about the money for a lot of men that I know, a lot of men that I`ve worked with in my private practice. A lot of these guys are afraid to be alone. They`re the ones who often threaten that they want a divorce and then when the woman says you know what, you can have your divorce, these guys completely lose it. Not just the money, not just the kids. But it`s also about their self-esteem. Because for a woman to tell a man -- and two-thirds of women, by the way, are the ones who initiate the divorces these days.
BEHAR: Yes.
GARDERE: To tell a man I don`t want you anymore, these guys, their ego just cannot take it. It`s a pure rejection.
BEHAR: I once read a shrink say, a famous -- I don`t know who he was. Sigmund Freud - whatever.
GARDERE: His name rings a bell, yes.
BEHAR: He says that marriages never end until the woman decides it`s over. Now, that could be a subconscious thing that happens where the woman just shuts down. So I guess what you`re saying is true. You were going to say something.
GARDERE: Yes, it is true.
SOUTER: I think in a lot of these cases the men have already had a wife-to-be waiting in the wings. You know, for some of them they`ve already moved on.
BEHAR: That`s true. Well, they never leave until they have another woman waiting.
MAPLES: Like he said, because there`s a fear of being alone.
SOUTER: Exactly.
MAPLES: And we`ve learned how to surround ourselves with wonderful women and friends and oftentimes they don`t.
GARDERE: But I agree with you. When a woman says it`s over, that`s when it`s really over. At this point we know women have many more options. They`re in the working world. And they may even have a guy on the side that perhaps who was a friend and nothing else, and now that person steps into the place of the husband, who`s now gone. So I admire that women can say it`s over.
BEHAR: But don`t you think, Jeff, that women who have children don`t want to initiate? They know better than to initiate a divorce when the kids are small.
GARDERE: I think -- yes, that is true, but I`m seeing in marriages of 15 years and over when these women were married at 19, 20, in their early 20s, now they`re hitting their 40s, they`re saying wait a minute, I`m in a mid-life crisis, I want a new life. I can`t live under the rules or the culture that my husband has set for me, I want to be my own damn woman, I want to do this.
And so they are willing to move on even though they may be throwing the kids under the bus to some extent. But they know they`re going to have the full custody of the kids or part custody.
(CROSSTALK)
MAPLES: I think (INAUDIBLE) the kids will feel it emotionally if the mom`s not happy and that`s what you have to really think about.
GARDERE: Well, they do.
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: There`s a new study that now says that kids of divorce, the male children have higher rates of suicidal thinking. So there`s a real fallout to these divorces.
BEHAR: Why is that?
GARDERE: I think a lot of these young boys are not socialized to talk about their pain whereas young girls are. And so they are the ones --
BEHAR: Could it be that the father leaves and then the --
GARDERE: That is the primary reason. That`s right because the father`s no longer in the home the way he once was.
BEHAR: Well, in Hollywood`s in high-profile separations -- I mean there`s a big debate between Kelsey is he going to spend time with the kids. Are they -- you know, has he checked out of their lives completely? That does happen --
GARDERE: Well, we don`t want the kids to be collateral damage. And sometimes we see that they become the weapon and the guy checks out and he checks out on the kids and it`s the wrong behavior.
BEHAR: That`s wrong.
Ok. Let`s talk about Steve Harvey for a second because he`s in the news. His ex-wife, Mary, is an example of a woman who seems to have lost everything at the hands of an unfaithful spouse, although we know there are two sides to the story.
And now she`s taken to YouTube to complain. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY HARVEY, STEVE HARVEY`S EX-WIFE: The not having closure part was really devastating. But on top of that he took my Wynton. He took my Wynton from me. He turned my son against me. Had me evicted from our house, thrown out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, if all of that is true, that he had her thrown out, that he took the kid, et cetera, how come he gets to keep the money and the kid?
GARDERE: Because he`s got a great lawyer. And he has the money to be able to get that lawyer. And we have to understand, in a lot of these divorces these guys are able to control the situation and they can threaten the women and say you want to take me to court, go ahead, I`ll stop working, I have money put away. I mean, there`s a whole art to hiding your money. So these women in many ways -- I`m not saying that`s the case here, but these women in many ways feel like they have no choice but to go along with the --
(CROSSTALK)
SOUTER: But to be fair, there are three sides to every story. Steve Harvey said himself, there`s her side, his side, and the truth.
BEHAR: I`m going to play Steve Harvey`s response in a second. But the other thing about it is, you know, he bills himself as a relationship guru. So she`s like, oh, yes.
GARDERE: We know the deal about relationship gurus. Ok? Relationship gurus have some of the worst relationships around. And I won`t even talk about my own divorce. Don`t get me started.
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s listen to Steve Harvey`s response to his ex-wife`s scathing videos on his radio show.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
STEVE HARVEY, TALK SHOW HOST: If you`re going to be vindictive, then go ahead and just aim it at me. But my son is coming in the room crying, and that`s also her son. So why you would do this and I don`t even understand the purpose of it.
I mean, I got you`re mad, but 12 years ago? That`s what we`re doing now?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes, 12 years is a long time to still be angry about it.
MAPLES: Well, you never know how her financial situation changed during that period of time.
SOUTER: Or maybe her divorce lawyer did a poor, sort of did a bad job in negotiating her settlement or what she would get --
GARDERE: Or revenge is a dish best served cold. We know that Steve had -- yes, it`s true. Steve had an opportunity --
BEHAR: Thank you, Don Corleone.
GARDERE: Yes, right. Steve had an opportunity to have a show with Oprah. He blames her and says because she outed him in this particular way she, you know, cut his chances of getting all of these great opportunities. So she may have waited until the right time.
But this sounds like a woman not just scorned but a woman who`s desperate and who knows who`s whispering in her ear.
BEHAR: Yes. Right. Ok. Let`s talk about another couple, Kelsey and Camille Grammer. They`re also in the news and on television with this stuff. They`ve been married 13 years and their net worth is $120 million. She wants $50 million. Do you think she`ll get it Marla?
MAPLES: Well, it depends on who she has working for her and if she`s willing to put the time and energy to listening to the attorney then do it. I know for me, I cared about the child more than that.
BEHAR: So you didn`t get that much.
MAPLES: No, I didn`t get that much.
BEHAR: With all his money.
GARDERE: At the end of the day if she threatens to take $50 million and she settles for $20 million I`m not going to be crying for her.
BEHAR: No. No one`s crying. The only person who might cry for her is John Boehner. Go ahead.
SOUTER: She was with Kelsey for over a decade, she was with him through some hard times. She helped build him back up. She was there for him every step of the way. She does deserve --
BEHAR: She deserves something.
SOUTER: She deserves a lot.
GARDERE: Spoken like a true woman. Yes.
MAPLES: I like that. And he`s been always --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But she`s been trashing him on Beverly Hills -- what`s it called -- "The Housewives of Beverly Hills". And now he wants a reality show. What do you make of people who are always putting their dirty laundry out in public on television?
GARDERE: I think this is a way for them to get free therapy. This is a way for them to act out in front of their fans and, you know, try to win the day. Their life is already public so they feel they could do it out there.
And I`m telling you --
(CROSS TALK)
SOUTER: Yes, but it backfired.
GARDERE: -- this is the worst way. Absolutely. It`s the worst way to work out your -- your divorce issues because it ends up being not just cantankerous --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It`s ugly.
GARDERE: It`s ugly.
BEHAR: And it hurts the children.
GARDERE: And that`s the bottom line.
MAPLESWIFE: But you`re catching her in a very emotional time.
SOUTER: Right.
MAPLES: There happen to be cameras following her around --
BEHAR: That`s true.
MAPLES: So how does she really hide the emotion?
BEHAR: He wants a quickie divorce by the way. What`s his rush?
SOUTER: Because he wants to get married in February. Next month.
BEHAR: Why do they have to get married in February -- what is he, 12 years old?
MAPLES: Basically -- it`s like can`t we stop, wait, breathe, and let life kind of heal itself before you jump.
BEHAR: I mean, really.
SOUTER: Well, he got to move on, he moved on before she knew he had moved on.
BEHAR: And you know, by the way, only three percent of men, cheating men, marry their new lover -- only three percent.
(CROSS TALK)
UM1: So that`s not very good for the mistresses. And that`s a lesson to be learned.
SOUTER: Well, look, I have -- my grandmother, you know, Ethel Mae, would say if he`ll do it with you he`ll do it to you.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, everybody.
And a quick note. Marla Maples` new single, she sings, "One World of Love", is available on iTunes or through MarlaMaples.com.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Traditionally, certain things have been associated with the male species. You know, like hunting, gathering, and cheating. But times have changed, and women are fooling around more than you might think, or so says mental health counselor M. Gary Neuman, who joins me now.
He`s the author of "Connect to Love: The Keys to Transforming your Relationship." Also joining us is Cathy Splete, who was an unfaithful wife.
Now Gary, you say that women are cheating more. Why is that?
M. GARY NEUMAN, MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR: There`s a lot of things that came out from my research of over 500 women across the world-- across the world, actually.
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: But four out of 10 said that they had physically cheated on their husbands and then out of the faithful women a little over the majority said that they had seriously considered divorce in the last year.
So if you are --
BEHAR: But those are the ones who are faithful.
NEUMAN: Those are the ones who are faithful. So if you are in a relationship as a woman you had a whopping 30 percent chance of being faithful and not wanting out in the relationship.
So I think that it`s -- it`s become this incredible double standard where everybody focuses on men cheating, men cheating. No one focuses on the fact that women cheat; 62 percent of the women who cheated have yet to tell their husbands about the cheating. They continue to lie or haven`t even been asked.
BEHAR: And the husbands don`t have a clue?
NEUMAN: They don`t have a clue.
You know what I found? Just you want to talk about proof of something strange and double standard.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
NEUMAN: The man with whom a woman cheats -- the woman with whom a woman will cheat with -- right?
BEHAR: No. The man with whom a woman will cheat.
NEUMAN: Get this straight. Right. The woman --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: The woman --
NEUMAN: -- with whom a man will cheat --
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: -- is called a mistress.
BEHAR: Right.
NEUMAN: What is the man with whom a woman will cheat called?
BEHAR: A hula master.
NEUMAN: There you go.
So isn`t it amazing that in our culture we don`t even have a term, except the one that you`ve introduced, thank you very much --
BEHAR: I just -- yes.
NEUMAN: We don`t even have term for it --
BEHAR: Well, my aunt Julie introduced me to that. She used to call Joseph P. Kennedy, John Kennedy`s father, a hula master. So, that where I got that thing.
NEUMAN: It applies. A paramour --
BEHAR: Yes. Well, women are more secretive than men, aren`t they? They are more sneaky about it. I want to ask Cathy about it.
NEUMAN: Well, but don`t they have to be.
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: Don`t they -- it seems to be, because I think if a woman cheats, right? Then she`s immediately -- you know, she`s -- she`s a slut, she`s awful. You know, a man, it`s kind of like, yes, we kind of expected it, so kind of move on and we kind of get over it.
BEHAR: Yes, I guess that`s true. Cathy, you cheated on your husband, and you`re here to tell us about it. Why did you do it?
CATHY SPLETE, CHEATED ON HER HUSBAND: Why did I do it? I was unhappy for reasons that really had nothing to do with my marriage, and I stuck a band-aid on the problem. And that was how I did it.
BEHAR: Oh. Did you plan it? You know, like a bar mitzvah? Did you plan it?
SPLETE: No, not at --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Or did you just spontaneously decide to cheat? How did it happen? Tell me everything.
SPLETE: No, no. It was -- it was based on a friendship that had formed. There was no planning. It wasn`t spontaneous at all.
BEHAR: See, it happens at work, probably.
NEUMAN: Yes, the main -- the main places are at work. It happens with hobbies --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Hobbies?
SPLETE: Hobbies yes.
NEUMAN: Yes. Exercise. I think Cathy --
BEHAR: Those stamp collectors are hot.
NEUMAN: You know, these -- a lot of the women, faithful or unfaithful, when they`re unhappy, they`re unhappy for many years. There`s emotional breakdowns. There`s lack of time spent. There`s tremendous lack of appreciation going on.
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: They really are --
SPLETE: And communication.
BEHAR: Communication problems.
SPLETE: Yes.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: As a matter of fact --
SPLETE: Communication, yes. Absolutely.
BEHAR: Statistically, I was reading that women who don`t cheat talk twice as much with their husbands as women who don`t talk to their husbands.
NEUMAN: Right. In -- in my study --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: -- women who were happy, it was a big divide, they said on a daily average they spend over 30 minutes a day talking uninterrupted to their husbands.
BEHAR: Does the husband talk back to them or they just monologue?
NEUMAN: Sometimes he can squeeze out an "I understand." No, don`t kid yourself. One of the things I talk -- sometimes I`ll have a couple and she`ll say something very important and he`ll sit there and he`ll look at me and say, what? Like -- like, it really sometimes --
(CROSS TALK)
SPLETE: Now what?
NEUMAN: You have to help men understand --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: -- that you have to ask follow-up questions. Don`t solve the problem. Just, you know, have some kind of -- some kind of understanding response that`s sympathetic.
BEHAR: Really. What were you going to say?
SPLETE: Yes.
BEHAR: Was your -- what was your problem you that didn`t communicate with your husband? Is that what you`re saying?
SPLETE: Oh, it was no specific one problem, Joy. And I think it was -- you know, you`re married for 10, 15 years and you have a couple of kids, and communication dies down twofold. It wasn`t just me to him or him to me. It was just a general thing.
BEHAR: And -- and a lot of times women are just lonely. You know, they say the loneliest people are married women. Did you ever read that?
NEUMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: And I think it`s because when you`re alone you`re not as lonely because you don`t have somebody to remind you how lonely you are. You look at the guy and you say oh, my God, I`m alone.
NEUMAN: Right when he -- well, when he`s there --
(CROSS TALK)
SPLETE: Yes.
NEUMAN: -- and he`s not interacting with you.
BEHAR: Yes.
NEUMAN: That really does happen.
BEHAR: It shines a light on --
(CROSS TALK)
SPLETE: Right. It`s --
BEHAR: Go ahead, yes.
SPLETE: Yes. It`s that lack of interaction that can lead to that feeling I think, and that was definitely the case between me and my former husband for sure.
BEHAR: Well, how did he find out?
SPLETE: By looking into my e-mail account.
BEHAR: See, now why did you do that? Why would you put it out in the e-mails when somebody could hack into that? Did you want to get caught?
(CROSS TALK)
SPLETE: I only know, I -- oh, gosh. How many people have asked me that question? But no, I did not want to get caught. I -- I don`t know why I left my e-mail up.
BEHAR: It`s unconscious. I`m not saying you deliberately did it.
(CROSS TALK)
SPLETE: It was.
BEHAR: It`s like --
SPLETE: It was unconscious.
NEUMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s like you unconsciously want to get fired.
NEUMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: So you slow down on the job and you get fired. It`s the same --
NEUMAN: And I think even -- and I think, again, people who cheat, they`re not bad people. I mean, you know good people can do some very inappropriate things --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: How could you say they`re bad when so many people do it?
NEUMAN: Exactly. But I think they feel a lot of guilt. They`re not cavalier about it. And I think people working --
SPLETE: No, not at all.
NEUMAN: Right. People are working very hard at their relationships. And I think what happens in a marriage, one thing we found --
BEHAR: Wait, hold that thought. We`ll be right back after this break. Hold the thought.
CARLOS DIAZ, HLN GUEST HOST: Tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT", Sandra Bullock`s ex caught up in a new Nazi photo scandal.
Plus, Kelsey Grammer`s reality check.
11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here on HLN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel talking about why women cheat. You wanted to talk about sex. They say that women who don`t cheat have twice as much sex with their husbands even if they don`t want to.
NEUMAN: It was amazing. And my research really exploded the myth that women aren`t into sex. Happy woman reported on average monthly ten times a month having sex as opposed to unhappy women who were four to five times a month. What it really said was that when a woman is emotionally connected she very much wants to have sex. When men say to me, now, my wife doesn`t want to have sex, I say let me explain something to you. She wants to have sex. She don`t want to have sex with you.
BEHAR: That`s right.
NEUMAN: That`s what I`ve learned. So it is an indication for both men and women that you really need to take that very seriously and it really does begin with all the emotional stuff.
BEHAR: But you wanted to have sex with him when you married him. So what happened?
NEUMAN: Exactly. Well, what happens is clearly is that we do get married and we forget about the relationship. You know, it`s fascinating. If I asked you what it`s going to take to be a great mom or a great career person you would tell me a lot of time and energy. When it comes to marriage, people have no clue.
I tell people to go out on a date night, I call it turn back time night. I say talk about anything you want except three things -- money, work, and kids.
BEHAR: What`s left to talk about?
NEUMAN: Everybody looks at me and says what the heck am I going to talk about?
BEHAR: Pop culture.
NEUMAN: And I say when you were dating you weren`t talking incessantly about that stress.
BEHAR: No, you were making out and having sex. That`s why.
NEUMAN: You were talking about something interesting.
BEHAR: What the heck were you talking about, Cathy?
NEUMAN: You have to find out. Find out anew.
BEHAR: What happened to the guy you were having the affair with, Cathy?
SPLETE: I am currently with him, Joy.
BEHAR: Oh. So she traded in a headache for an upset stomach.
NEUMAN: Indeed. Indeed.
BEHAR: No, I`m sure she`s happy --
NEUMAN: No, no. But she knows. Cathy --
BEHAR: Sometimes the second guy works out better, right?
NEUMAN: Well, Cathy is unhappy -- you know, she`s unhappy that she lost her family in that way. That`s a loss. Is that right, Cathy?
SPLETE: Yes. Yes. And I think we just need to remember that there - - you know, there are always relationships out there. And the grass isn`t greener. It`s just a different shade.
So better to put the time and the work and the effort into maybe the marriage that we`re in with the kids that we have together and fix those things within us that may cause us to do what I did.
BEHAR: Yes, but sometimes you can`t. Sometimes it`s just you got married young and you`re over that person and you`re just moving in a different direction.
NEUMAN: It does happen. But that usually happens after years.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
SPLETE: But why are you over that person? I mean, I asked my grandmother, married 50 years, who`s now 90. And this is what she says. The fireworks don`t last forever, and marriage takes work. And it really can sometimes be as simple as that.
NEUMAN: So I think it is -- I think we do lose pace with that. One of the big indicators for women was that they felt very underappreciated. Women nowadays, I think they`ve been sold this bill of goods, that if I go and work I come home. My husband`s going to take 50 percent of the home care and taking care of the children.
It`s largely not true. A lot of times women get stuck with everything, what they do with the children is not really measurable, they don`t get the compliments. I remember one time I`m with my wife, who`s a brilliant author, brilliant person, but she took off time to be with the kids, right? And take care of them.
So we`re at this table at a dinner with all these very powerful women, all CEOs, they`re going around introducing themselves, how they`re all CEOs. And she says, much to my surprise, I run a home for unwanted children. And she says I bathe them, I clothe them, take care of their physical and emotional needs. And then she says yes, they`re unwanted. They`re my kids. Nobody wants them. Right?
And her point was that while she was talking about taking care of somebody else`s children she was a saint.
SPLETE: She was valued.
NEUMAN: She was unbelievable. But when she was talking about her own children, all of a sudden it was like oh, well, you`re supposed to do that.
BEHAR: A lot of times women get resentful and then they turn on their husbands because of exactly what you`re describing.
NEUMAN: It costs nothing to appreciate. An extra hug, an extra kiss, an extra you`re doing a terrific job.
BEHAR: She may be weary. Women do get weary
Ok. Thank you guys very much. And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: OK. The State of the Union was last night, but it was Michele Bachmann who stole the show. But not in a good way. The Minnesota congresswoman delivered the Tea Party rebuttal. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: The perilous battle that was fought during World War II in the Pacific at Iwo Jima was a battle against all odds, and yet this picture immortalizes the victory of young GIs over the incursion against the Japanese. These six young men raising the flag came to symbolize all of America coming together to beat back a totalitarian aggressor.
Our current debt crisis we face today is different, but we still need all of us to pull together. But we can do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Look at me. Look at me, Michele! Michele Bachmann, congresswoman or Manchurian candidate? We report, you decide. Here now are Chuck Nice, comedian. Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent for the Daily Beast, and John Fugelsang, actor and comedian.
JOHN FUGELSANG, COMEDIAN: Do I look here?
BEHAR: John, was her speech the biggest natural disaster since Katrina?
FUGELSANG: Oh, man. You know, Michele Bachmann went to Little Caesars and ate up all the crazy bread.
(LAUGHTER)
FUGELSANG: It was beautiful. And by the way, she wore so much eyeliner, she`s been offered to go on tour with The Cure this year. So it was a beautiful thing.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean, on a scale of 1 to Bobby Jindal, how bad?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What do you think? I mean, he was bad.
CHUCK NICE, COMEDIAN: Yeah, he was bad.
BEHAR: He was like doo, doo, doo, doo. Remember last year?
NICE: She`s got all the quirkiness of Bobby Jindal. You know, but none of the likeability. That`s the problem.
FUGELSANG: None of the gravitas of Bobby Jindal.
NICE: You know what I mean? If only she knew how to bring it home in that Jindal-esque way, we might have been able to. But what I don`t like is, it looked like a hostage video.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: I was waiting for the shotgun to come in the frame.
(LAUGHTER)
REBECCA DANA, THE DAILY BEAST: I wonder if maybe we`re being a little bit hard on Michele Bachmann, and maybe this is actually like a really high-concept argument for education reform.
BEHAR: I think you have a point there. She tried to blame the fiscal crisis on Obama. Was she in a coma during the Bush administration?
FUGELSANG: No, no. Listen, she has been very outraged about deficits since January 21st, 2009. She`s been really mad about it since then. I mean, the Tea Party began because responsible conservatives like the Ron Paul guys were furious that Bush was spending money like Lindsay Lohan in Amsterdam. OK?
BEHAR: Right.
FUGELSANG: But now it`s been taken over. 19 percent of our population thinks Obama`s a Muslim. The greatest threat to our security is not foreign terrorists, but domestic morons. And this is who she was serving. It was brilliant that she did it, because the Tea Party`s not a party. It`s keeping the fringe in the Republicans. And that`s -- she did her job.
BEHAR: OK. Now, do you know why she was not looking straight into the camera? You know why, right?
NICE: Yes.
DANA: She was looking into a Tea Party camera--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: There was this camera here--
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: Only Kenyans use a Telempromter.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: There was a camera to her right, which she can only look to the right, obviously. And there was one straight ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Straight ahead was a camera that most people know to look into. She was looking into the Tea Party camera. Do you realize that?
NICE: Well, that`s her problem. This is what happens when you focus solely on the Tea Party. You end up looking like an idiot.
BEHAR: You know, since Sarah Palin is on the decline -- yeah. Is she like the new --
FUGELSANG: Don`t nix it. Don`t nix it.
BEHAR: Is she the new go-to, you know, angry crazy white woman that we`re going to have to deal with now in politics? Because Sarah`s not in politics anymore, I don`t think. Do you?
NICE: I don`t think she`s in politics, Sarah Palin, and I don`t think she`s going to run. She has -- in a way I respect Sarah Palin. She dropped out of public service and went into self-service. This woman is rich beyond her dreams. And she did it by using -- by getting out of public service. And I`m like, well, you did us all a service and a disservice.
BEHAR: But can she make more money if she`s out of public service?
FUGELSANG: Well, sure she can.
DANA: I think that it may be a little too early to say that Sarah Palin is out of politics for good.
FUGELSANG: That`s what they said about Nixon, you know.
DANA: Yeah. I think if any of these people could possibly run for something and think they could win, they absolutely would.
BEHAR: So what about the sitting together thing? Did you enjoy that in the State of the Union, when they were all sort of kumbayaing together?
FUGELSANG: They found a way to make it more boring, and that was by having -- because there was no one yelling "you lie." There was less ovations. And it was--
DANA: There wasn`t (ph) the camaraderie.
FUGELSANG: It just kind of tamed the whole thing. I began having these nightmares of, you know, dead Gene Kelly and Donald O`Connor dancing in the back of the car (inaudible)--
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: -- from all these happy pairings we saw.
BEHAR: What about John Boehner? I mean, he was going to go again. I was like no, no, no, no, don`t. As soon as the word sweep, like you swept the floor, he loses it.
FUGELSANG: Sense memory. He actually doesn`t cry. He secretes Fanta through his eyes. That`s what`s happening.
(LAUGHTER)
NICE: That`s not Fanta. That`s carrot juice.
(LAUGHTER)
FUGELSANG: Oh, OK. Or Tang.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s do a little topic. Another topic. MTV`s new controversial show "Skins" lost half its viewership in its second episode. OK? And it`s also losing advertisers like Wrigley and Taco Bell. Hey, Taco Bell, looking for a new show to sponsor? Yo quiero Taco Bell. OK.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, is this -- all right. They lost the sponsors and the numbers went down. What do you -- how do you explain that?
DANA: I think it`s two totally separate things. I think the sponsor thing, this is a campaign by the odious, craven Parents Television Council, and I think it`s to be disregarded. I think they are like the biggest idiots on the planet.
BEHAR: So what are you saying, that you like the show?
DANA: I think it`s irrelevant whether I like the show. I think the show is sexy, and it`s racy, and so there`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But it`s children, it`s kids, underage children.
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: They had a huge tune-in bump for the premiere, and maybe it`s not the best show in the history of television.
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: The premiere was following "Jersey Shore," which is a show not about actors but about real people who have unsafe sex and do drugs.
DANA: Exactly. Who wants to see a bunch --
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: That lets you know the kids want to see real people do drugs and have unsafe sex, not actors do drugs and have unsafe sex.
DANA: And are advertisers pulling their spots from "Jersey Shore"? No. It has nothing to do with the quality of the show or the sexual content.
BEHAR: "Jersey Shore" are over 18, all of them. There`s a difference. These are kids under 18. And their target audience at MTV are 13-year-old kids. And by the way, advertisers are pulling out, but the new sponsor are condoms.
DANA: And PETA. PETA took an ad today.
BEHAR: PETA took an ad?
DANA: PETA took an ad--
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: Oh, God, now the kids are going to be having sex with animals.
DANA: Oh, my God.
FUGELSANG: You know what? There`s a great scene in "Hard Day`s Night" where George Harrison goes into the room, and it`s some guy deciding what all the kids are going to like in six months, what will flip their parents out in six months. Remember when MTV used to be shocking because it had Motley Crue videos? I mean, this -- MTV`s mission is to dance on rock`s grave and scare parents. And that`s what "The Skins" is about.
DANA: Absolutely.
FUGELSANG: Now, the British version`s a real show. It had a gay character that`s been written out of this one. But when I was a kid -- and when I was a teenager and wanted to see pornography, I had to ask an adult to show me a magazine. Now I`m an adult and if I want to see pornography, I`ve got to ask a teenager to show me a website. Because kids are -- if kids want to see porn, they`ve got the real thing. They`re not going to watch this unless it`s really, really well written, and it just isn`t. It`s rubbish.
NICE: I`m just shocked to hear there were adults willing to share porn with you.
(LAUGHTER)
FUGELSANG: Well, there`s a lot of disturbed Catholics out there.
DANA: When I was watching MTV in the `90s, there were shows way worse than this that were also about high school kids, and even sort of like younger high school kids.
BEHAR: Really?
DANA: There was a show called "Undressed," I think.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But they`re showing naked kids.
DANA: There`s a lot of sexual content on MTV and there always has been.
FUGELSANG: You know, the real child pornography is a horrible problem in the world, and if we call this bit of titillation child pornography, it does a disservice to the actual problem.
DANA: Absolutely.
BEHAR: All right, you know, MTV is one station, but also "Glee" is having a few problems. The creator of "Glee" is hinting that he`s toning down the show a bit after getting some complaints from friends with young children, particularly about a racy hot tub scene. Have you seen it?
FUGELSANG: Polanski loved it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I`m sure he did. I`m sure he did. It`s like why do we have to show kids in scenes like that? You know, it`s sort of like at one end of the spectrum are old people having sex. We don`t want to see that. We don`t want to see kids having sex or doing sexy things either. I don`t think.
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: I`m with you on that. I feel like this. It`s superfluous to have these scenes in anything. They mean nothing. They`re there simply to titillate, and that`s it. I mean, I have a 5-year-old son who I force to watch "Glee" because I want him to grow up and be gay, or at least like gay people.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Or to at least sing.
NICE: But the fact is, you know, it`s a show that kids like. So it`s not necessary. It serves no purpose.
BEHAR: It serves no purpose.
NICE: It serves no purpose.
FUGELSANG: But I`d be more scared of my kid taking in high fructose corn syrup, OK, than these shows necessarily.
BEHAR: Well, it`s (ph) bad. Why does one have to do--
FUGELSANG: Well, it`s terrible, but this kind of programming, while I don`t support it, is the obvious child of a free market system. You`re going to have stuff like this, and it`s the price of freedom. We have to put up with stuff like this. And if it`s crap, it will go away quick.
NICE: Now, that I agree with.
DANA: I think it`s dangerous when we start sitting around tables discussing what`s appropriate and not appropriate in terms of degrees of content like this. I understand that it`s important for adults to be monitoring what their children are watching, but it feels kind of like Nancy Reagan to me. I don`t -- I just--
FUGELSANG: Can we censor that later on? Can that be bleeped out?
BEHAR: No, but she has a point.
FUGELSANG: She does, of course.
BEHAR: As a parent -- I don`t know -- he`s a parent.
NICE: Yes.
BEHAR: You two are not parents.
FUGELSANG: Well, the night`s young.
(LAUGHTER)
NICE: Oh, you kids. You kids.
BEHAR: I think you make a very cute couple, actually.
FUGELSANG: I`m so glad you feel that way.
BEHAR: But as a parent, you can`t monitor your kids 24/7. You have to have some responsibility on the network level.
FUGELSANG: But if you`re raising your kids right, some crappy MTV sitcom`s not going to ruin them in one day. And obviously, kids are not interested. If kids want to watch filth, it`s right there on the Internet.
BEHAR: That`s true. All right. Thank you guys very much.
The fabulous Tim Gunn joins me next. Don`t go away. Very good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know that old expression, "it`s not what you say, it`s how you say it"? Not true. It should be it`s not what you say, it`s what you wore when you said it.
Joining me to discuss all things fashion, including who wore what at the State of the Union address is Tim Gunn, star of "Project Runway" and the author of "Gunn`s Golden Rules: Life`s Little Lessons for Making It Work."
TIM GUNN, AUTHOR: I`ve never had a lovelier introduction, Joy. Thank you so much.
BEHAR: Isn`t it delightful?
GUNN: And disarming.
BEHAR: People love you, Tim.
GUNN: Oh, thank you very much.
BEHAR: And it`s so lovely to run into you in my neighborhood sometimes in the supermarket.
GUNN: I know. We`re neighbors.
BEHAR: Yeah. Now let`s do a little fashion policing from last night`s State of the Union.
GUNN: I`m ready.
BEHAR: I`ll show you a couple of pictures. OK, what did you think of Michelle Obama`s look?
GUNN: Oh, you know, she was wearing Rachel Roy, this gorgeous silver sheath. I mean, I have to tell you, my heart goes pitter-patter when I see the first lady anyway because I find her to be--
BEHAR: Yeah, she`s beautiful.
GUNN: Well, she`s stunning, she`s comfortable about who she is. She knows the power of semiotics when it comes to clothing, the clothes we wear sends a message about how we`re perceived.
BEHAR: What do you mean semiotics?
GUNN: Well, messaging. That what we wear, people perceive.
BEHAR: It sends a message.
GUNN: It sends a message. And she says I`m confident--
BEHAR: Yes.
GUNN: I`m ready to rally and to go --
BEHAR: She really -- she takes it seriously.
GUNN: She does.
BEHAR: OK. How about the men? I mean, who do we have? Obama. Do you have President Obama? What do you think of the president? How do you think he looked?
GUNN: Well, I have to say, President Obama is a tall man. He has a slender physique.
BEHAR: Yes, he does.
GUNN: He really can wear anything. I mean, he`s very fortunate.
BEHAR: That`s true.
GUNN: And I have to say, for men in general, there`s not a single day when I don`t thank my lucky stars that I`m a guy, because it`s so much easier for us. Well--
BEHAR: Tell me about it.
GUNN: It`s a suit, it`s a shirt.
BEHAR: The shoes alone I would say -- I mean, the shoes are killing women.
GUNN: Indeed they are.
BEHAR: You should see some old feet that I see over at the pedicure salon. It`s like gnarled toes with bunions.
GUNN: I`d prefer not to.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: How about Hillary Clinton? Did you see Hillary? She was --
GUNN: You know, I missed -- I missed the secretary of state.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Look at the picture of her. Can you see it?
GUNN: Well--
BEHAR: She`s wearing black. She looks basically like she`s just going to a meeting for the PTA.
GUNN: Well, she looks very subdued. But she`s wearing a classic Hillary outfit, a classic Hillary silhouette, I have to say. I`m not surprised by it.
BEHAR: I think she should have fixed her hair a little bit.
GUNN: Well, I`d like to get my hands on the secretary of state.
BEHAR: You would?
GUNN: I would.
BEHAR: What would you do?
GUNN: I`d like to have a conversation with Madam Secretary and ask her about semiotics and how she thinks her look is perceived by people. I think it could be ramped up a bit.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s change the subject now.
GUNN: You don`t want to talk about Michele Bachmann?
BEHAR: Oh, yeah, Michele Bachmann.
GUNN: Please, Joy.
BEHAR: Let`s look at her. She`s pretty. I`ll give her that. She`s attractive.
GUNN: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you strip everything off, she is -- I mean, she has attractive features. But aren`t we horrified by how Palinesque she appeared last evening?
BEHAR: In terms of what she said or how she looked?
GUNN: The whole shtick, I thought it was Palinesque.
BEHAR: In what way?
GUNN: Well, if you squinted your eyes, you could believe that Sarah Palin in fact was there. I kept thinking about the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," thinking this is what would emerge from the pod.
BEHAR: It`s true. Another pod has emerged.
GUNN: Yeah. Exactly.
BEHAR: I know. It`s a little scary.
GUNN: Indeed.
BEHAR: If she starts wearing those rimless glasses, we`re in a lot of trouble.
GUNN: Just wait. I give her two and a half hours.
BEHAR: And what`s with all the flag pins and the things they wear all the time? Why don`t they put something new like a cameo of Betsy Ross?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: They always have a flag. Put something new in there.
GUNN: I`m all for that.
BEHAR: OK. Now, in the speech, the president celebrated don`t ask, don`t tell.
GUNN: Yes.
BEHAR: And we couldn`t tell if the Republicans -- because they`re not -- they weren`t on one side.
GUNN: I know.
BEHAR: This time. So it would have been interesting when he said that to see if they would have applauded. But we couldn`t tell.
GUNN: No. Shuffled the deck of cards.
BEHAR: I was all mixed up, you know. But you know, so that was nice progress that we had. But then we get people like Joel Osteen, this pastor. You know who he is.
GUNN: Indeed I do.
BEHAR: You know, he`s not a bad guy. I`ve met him a few times. And I think he means well. But he goes around saying things like homosexuality is a sin because he`s strictly for the scriptures.
GUNN: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you think that it`s a hateful statement for him to say that?
GUNN: I have to tell you, Joy, I would be more surprised if he were supportive of homosexuality and gay GBTL rights in general. I`d be more surprised. I mean, he`s a televangelist. You figure that he`s going to take up a certain position and cause. And I mean, and quite frankly, I discount all of it as the lunatic fringe, to be perfectly honest.
BEHAR: How many televangelists do you think are closet cases?
GUNN: Oh, that -- let`s -- shall we count the ways?
BEHAR: Well, you never know with them. Look what happened to Jimmy Swaggart. "I have sinned." Do you remember that?
GUNN: Indeed I do.
BEHAR: That was one of his great performances.
GUNN: I always figure that people doth protest too much when they go off on a tangent.
BEHAR: OK. Now I want to show you something else. Look at this on a camera. This is an Arkansas supermarket had covered up this picture on "Us Weekly" of Elton John with his partner. I believe he`s married to him, wherever they -- in England. And their new baby. Because they said that customers complained. Now, you see what I mean? There`s Elton and his lover, his --
GUNN: David Furnish.
BEHAR: -- whatever, his husband.
GUNN: Yes.
BEHAR: And they didn`t -- some people complained to this Arkansas supermarket. They see two very wealthy men with a lovely baby and they`re ticked off. And they want it covered up.
GUNN: I`m horrified by it, to be perfectly honest. I`m horrified. And one of the advances we`ve made in our society and culture is that two men or two women can in fact adopt a child.
BEHAR: Right.
GUNN: And raise that child. And in the case of Elton John and David Furnish, I mean, how lucky is that baby to be growing up in that household?
BEHAR: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, really. But to be fair to the supermarket, and maybe it`s not fair, because people then complained about the shield. They took down this shield. And now people can see the "Us Weekly" on the shelf.
GUNN: Well, I don`t believe in censorship of any kind. I figure once the magazine is on, presented in some way on the newsstand, whatever context it was presented, it`s done. And if you`re offended, don`t shop here.
BEHAR: Yeah. But I mean, it`s sort of sad that you see two happy guys with a lovely baby, and you don`t like it. I mean --
GUNN: It`s tragic, frankly.
BEHAR: OK. Now, tell me about your new partnership with Weight Watchers.
GUNN: Oh.
BEHAR: Are you losing weight? I hope not.
(LAUGHTER)
GUNN: Maybe I should be. No.
BEHAR: What are you doing for them?
GUNN: I`m so thrilled to be partnering with Weight Watchers. And you know what I`m about, Joy. I`m all about helping women and men --
BEHAR: Look good.
GUNN: Look good, feel good in particular. And that`s certainly one of the hallmarks of the Weight Watchers campaign. Feel better, have a healthier lifestyle. And when people are going through a weight loss regimen, they`re very challenged about what to do during this transition in terms of their fashion and their style, and quite frankly, they`re even more challenged when they get to their goal weight, because suddenly there`s this new body to dress. What do I do?
BEHAR: I love when there`s a new body to dress.
GUNN: It should be something to celebrate, but for many people, it`s daunting. So I`m working with Weight Watchers individuals, people who have been successful losing weight, especially the Weight Watchers points plus program, which is extraordinary, and I`m helping them. And there are tons of style tips of mine on Weightwatchers.com and I`m responding to people`s questions on a regular basis. And we`re having a blast.
BEHAR: You know what, when we come back, we might have some Twitter questions for you.
GUNN: Oh, I`d love that.
BEHAR: So stay right there. We`ll be right back with more of Tim Gunn.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the always well dressed Tim Gunn. Now, Tim, you say that when shopping for a new body, because you have a new body, you lose the weight, you should start with the bra.
GUNN: Yes, indeed. I mean, one loses weight there. I found in my experiences that I have yet to meet a single woman, Joy, probably present company excepted, I`ve yet to meet a single woman who is wearing the right size bra. And that changes one`s posture, one`s carriage and bearing, and frankly, one`s confidence.
BEHAR: Well, you know, frankly, they need to stop discontinuing good styles. You finally find the brazier that looks fabulous on you, with clothes or without, and then they don`t have it anymore.
GUNN: Well, that`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: I know.
GUNN: It shouldn`t happen.
BEHAR: I`ve been wearing things from 1985.
GUNN: Let go on a campaign, you and I.
(LAUGHTER)
GUNN: Let`s definitely go on a campaign.
BEHAR: You also say that everyone can wear jeans. Even my cousin Immaculata (ph), I don`t think so. I mean, what are you talking about, everyone can wear jeans?
GUNN: I maintain that there is a fit for everyone. It doesn`t mean you should wear jeans. But in fact, those people who say I can`t possibly get into a pair of jeans and look fairly decent, there is this line (ph).
BEHAR: What`s the difference between jeans and any other pants, though?
GUNN: Oh, I find denim is an entirely different category of fit.
BEHAR: It makes you look bigger, denim, doesn`t it?
GUNN: It can. It can. I mean--
BEHAR: Blue denim?
GUNN: I`m all in favor of dark washes because they`re slimming, and I am in favor of a straight leg, a leg that falls straight from the widest part of the hips, no flair, no taper.
BEHAR: No bell bottoms.
GUNN: No bell bottoms.
BEHAR: OK. What -- this is from Facebook now. "What look out there do you loathe?" And somebody says, "Snooki, do you like her look?" Little Snooki?
GUNN: Oh, I don`t even want to put Snooki into a fashion category. I`m horrified.
BEHAR: Why? She`s a fashion icon. Didn`t Vera Wang do a whole thing in her runway about Snooki?
GUNN: You know something, Joy, don`t even get me started on the whole Snooki thing. If she`s a fashion icon, I throw in the towel and figure let anything happen at this point. Horrifying.
BEHAR: It`s a look. She has a look.
GUNN: Oh, it`s a look, but we won`t say what kind.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. What should I buy that will never go out of style?
GUNN: A classic blazer. And it`s the easiest way to dress up ubiquitous jeans and t-shirts and go out and look fabulous.
BEHAR: What`s a piece of clothing that you can wear while you`re losing weight? And your weight keeps changing?
GUNN: Oh, perfect item would be a wrap dress or wrap top with a pair of just basic pants. Because the wrap allows you to customize the shape according to your own shape.
BEHAR: Oh, like the Diane von Furstenberg dresses?
GUNN: We love Diane von Fursternberg.
BEHAR: That still -- that`s still interesting.
What`s the worst fashion trend you`ve seen, Lady GaGa`s meat dress?
GUNN: I don`t even -- like Snooki, I do not put Lady GaGa into a fashion category. Those are costumes, as far as I`m concerned.
BEHAR: Those are costumes.
GUNN: I mean, the worst fashion trend in my view is anything that shows too much skin. And I`m really talking about center.
BEHAR: OK.
GUNN: No midriff.
BEHAR: Somebody says, "I read Tim collects DVDs of past Project Runway seasons and reminisces." Do you? Do you?
GUNN: I wonder where someone heard that. I mean, I do have the DVDs of the prior seasons, because I feel a responsibility to. But I certainly don`t sit around reminiscing.
BEHAR: Watching yourself.
GUNN: I live in the here and now. And I love it.
BEHAR: I used to work for a TV star who used to have us all gather in the room and say, look what I did here.
GUNN: You`re not serious?
BEHAR: I`m serious.
GUNN: That`s horrifying to me.
BEHAR: I wish I had more time because you called out some people. Anna Wintour.
GUNN: Oh, my book.
BEHAR: Yeah, in your book. Maybe people should get your book, "Gunn`s Golden Rules," to find out who you did a number on.
Thank you anyway, Tim.
GUNN: Love you, Joy.
BEHAR: It`s always a pleasure to see you.
GUNN: Thank you.
BEHAR: I`ll see you over at the supermarket. And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
