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Joy Behar Page
Stressed Mothers Snapping; Camille Grammer Speaks
Aired January 31, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: My new BFF Bill O`Reilly and I agree on one thing. That`s for sure. John Boehner needs to stop crying. I`m telling you, this man will cry over anything. I heard he teared up over the weekend when he heard that "Two and a Half Men" is shutting down. It`s too much. It`s too much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother in Alaska was charged with child abuse Friday after forcing her seven-year-old child to drink hot sauce. Even worse, a woman in Florida allegedly shot and killed her two teenagers for being mouthy.
So, what drives some mothers to abuse or even kill their own children?
Here now are Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV; Rikki Klieman, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; and Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and family therapist.
Welcome, ladies, to the show.
Jean, let`s start with the Tampa story. This woman is 50 years old. Her name is Jean Schenecker (SIC). She allegedly shot her two children. What exactly do you know?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Here are the facts, according to police at this point. She allegedly purchased this gun five days before this all happened. It`s believed the shootings happened on Thursday but as she was driving her son, Beau, to his soccer practice and he was 13 years old, she allegedly shot him, at least twice, in the car. And then left the car in the garage with him dead in the car, went into the house while her 16-year-old daughter was on the computer and shot her dead and then ended up on the back porch.
Her mother called the next day saying, I haven`t heard from her. I think she`s depressed. Police went there. She was on the back porch, blood all over her, Joy, according to police. She admitted she did it, saying, you know what, they mouthed off, they mouthed off a little too much.
BEHAR: Ok. I mean they say in the report also that the kids didn`t know what hit them. So mercifully they didn`t suffer. They didn`t realize their own mother was killing them.
CASAREZ: Which can also be an aggravating factor, you`re ambushing someone to kill them.
BEHAR: Ambush, ok.
All right. Bethany, as Jean just said, Schenecker`s mother says that the woman was depressed. She was obviously more than just depressed. Do you think she was insane or what?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: This woman was not depressed and she is not legally insane. And by the way, I would not be seduced into believe anything either the mother or grandmother had to say about what happened. When women commit filicide, kill a child, usually it`s because they feel that their children are standing in the way of an idealized life.
So I would wonder did homicidal mom have a lover? Did she resent the money being spent on the children? If her husband was coming back from the war, did she want the husband`s attention all to herself or had she had a fight with him and she killed the children to get back at him?
Sure, maybe she had borderline personality disorder with anti-social tendencies, but that is not what`s primary in a case like this.
BEHAR: I see. It`s like Medea or Susan Smith you`re describing: Medea who killed her children because she wanted to get back at her husband, Jason; and Susan Smith who had a lover and had this fantasy of another life. That`s very true.
Rikki, is it more like that or is it like Andrea Yates who obviously was insane?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, Andrea Yates we know was suffering truly from a mental disease or defect. And Andrea Yates is probably the poster girl for the true insanity defense.
Here we don`t yet know. I think that Bethany, whose opinion I always respect, probably has it right, but what we don`t know is what happens when this woman is examined. This is a woman who is going to have to be suffering from some mighty, mighty psychological issue in order to either get through an insanity defense or even to say it`s diminished capacity. That is, she couldn`t premeditate, that somehow there was some voice, for example, telling her to go buy the gun because she had to rid the planet of people under the age of 18. This is a very, very tough insanity defense case.
MARSHALL: Joy.
BEHAR: Ok, yes, what did you want to say, Bethany?
MARSHALL: Both women, this homicidal mom and Andrea Yates waited until their husbands left to kill the children. That shows premeditation. You can have a psychotic disorder and know right from wrong and have homicidal instincts toward your children. They can all co-exist.
BEHAR: Well, you know, the police reports, Jean, showed that she hit her daughter in November. And I believe Calex, the girl, the 16-year-old girl, either she reported or she was in counseling.
CASAREZ: That`s another part to all this.
BEHAR: And she bought the guns, so that sort of indicates a lot of premeditation.
CASAREZ: Right. And it was fall of 2010, there`s a police report to substantiate it, saying that the daughter reported that her mother had hit her to counselors and the police got involved.
And mother and daughter went to the supermarket. The daughter bad mouthed her mother, said not nice things to her mother. The response was the mother hit her, quite a few times. So there was counseling at school. There was an investigation, but it didn`t find that there was any abuse, domestic abuse on the part of the mother.
BEHAR: I read also that the kids were considered good athletes and good students in their school. So I don`t really understand what the mouthing off was about -- the chicken/egg problem. Did she hit them first or did they mouth off first?
CASAREZ: They mouthed off first according to the police report. Things, like, don`t look in my bag, that`s my private --
BEHAR: Yes. Things kids do.
KLIEMAN: And it`s the problem of her saying they mouthed off to me which certainly really goes against an insanity defense.
BEHAR: Yes, Bethany?
MARSHALL: Yes, you know, these women who abuse and kill their children have what we call paranoid attachment systems and by that they believe that they possess the child, the child belongs to them. They gave birth to the child; I am in control of you. And the paranoia is you are ruining my life by making me feel bad about myself, by standing in the way of love. They`re very paranoid and that`s why she would use a word like mouthing off. They`re just kids.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Let`s look at the second story now. An Alaska mom whose disciplinary tactics was shown on Dr. Phil was charged with child abuse this weekend. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Open. Close your mouth. Did you swallow it? Good. Do you lie to me? No, don`t spit it.
Why are you getting a cold shower? You pulled three cards today. That`s unacceptable behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, Jean, she`s pleading not guilty. What is her defense?
CASAREZ: That she is reasonably allowed to do this as part of a disciplinary procedure and there is no substantial harm or injury that is due to the child.
I did some research on this. Listen to this. This is like the popular thing to do now. It`s called hot saucing. And it`s what in olden days they would put soap in the mouth but now they`re putting hot sauce in the mouth. And I don`t think we know enough about it. Did the tongue and mouth actually get burned?
BEHAR: Well, I guess it depends on the amount of hot sauce that she put.
CASAREZ: I think there could be injury.
BEHAR: Then also on top of the hot sauce she puts the child into an ice cold shower.
CASAREZ: Right.
BEHAR: You know, Rikki, a lot of people responded to this.
KLIEMAN: They went absolutely wild. They`re the people who saw it on Dr. Phil and then wrote or communicated with the Anchorage police department and said this is child abuse. It was a reaction to that kind of pressure.
BEHAR: You know what, I think if she`s charged and it sticks, it puts the word out to these other people who are using the hot sauce technique to really assault their children. That is an assault as far as I`m concerned.
MARSHALL: Joy --
BEHAR: Bethany, the kid is still in her custody. Should he be?
MARSHALL: Well, I mean, this is terrible he`s in the custody because now in essence his mother has been told on and he`s going to be afraid even more that he`s going to get in trouble, she`ll turn her rage on him.
But about this hot saucing, all parents who abuse their children rationalize that it`s a form of punishment. We know parents who abuse the children always feel that the child is unconditionally bad. There were four other children, five who were not abused and in very abusive families we see the parent often chooses one child to hate and one child to love. So this is a very typical scenario.
BEHAR: Right. One child is the scapegoat in the family.
But you know, Rikki, what is the responsibility of the other parent in both cases?
KLIEMAN: Well, this is a situation, Joy, where we have to even decide, is it criminal or not? This prosecutorial`s office has decided that it is a crime enough to charge, but ultimately it`s going to be up to a jury to decide if this was, perhaps, a bit over the top and she`s really not a bad mother. Certainly the Department of Social Services says she`s not a bad mother in any way. They`ve investigated.
BEHAR: The child is adopted, by the way, from Russia.
KLIEMAN: I understand.
BEHAR: I`m just saying.
KLIEMAN: I understand. And you have a lot of kids in that house and you have someone who seems otherwise to be a good mother. So does she need parenting skills, does she need anger management? Should she be prosecuted, sounds like yes. Should she be convicted, very different story.
BEHAR: She probably thinks that she was doing the right thing.
KLIEMAN: I`m sure she does.
BEHAR: That`s what`s sort of sad about a lot of people who don`t know what the right thing is. Yes Bethany?
MARSHALL: I think that there is a very good way to evaluate whether or not this was abuse and that`s to look at in a verbal interview is she empathetic toward the child or does she say the child had it coming?
And to look for other forms of abuse -- was he malnourished? Did his clothing fit or did he have ill-fitting clothing? Was he being facilitated on to go to school and to socialize and have a larger life? Or was he told that he was bad?
If you have the other forms of abuse co-occurring --
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: -- then you can make a reasonable guess that this was abuse.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: And what if the child choked on it? I mean, she`s putting that hot sauce in there.
BEHAR: Yes.
CASAREZ: What if it`s the Jabanero hot sauce? We don`t know what kind of hot sauce it is.
BEHAR: That`s true.
KLIEMAN: You know it`s driven a lot --
(CROSS TALK)
KLIEMAN: Well, but at least there`s a dialogue. I mean, we`re having a dialogue --
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: -- and that`s important.
BEHAR: Well, that`s why Dr. Phil put it on the air, I think.
KLIEMAN: Oh well, but sure --
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: -- that Dr. Phil was smart to put it on the air. She, of course, was foolish to let it to be put on the air.
BEHAR: I know but that`s why I said, I don`t think she felt she did anything wrong.
MARSHALL: I can`t tell you how many --
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
MARSHALL: -- I can`t tell you how many patients -- adult patients that I`ve had in my office who were abused as children who have reported that their parents put cigarette butts on their skin. What is the difference between burning a child`s skin and burning their mouth? It`s just the same thing but it`s only a more sneaky way for the mom to do it.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I mean, the prisons -- the prisons are filled with people who have been burnt and abused by their mothers.
KLIEMAN: Well, I`ve -- I`ve prosecuted those people. This is a different story as far as we know. We know at this point in time we know of nothing about the child being injured physically.
BEHAR: Well, I hope this is a cautionary tale to these people out there who think that this is a correct disciplinary move. I mean, people need to talk to their children more.
Thank you so much, ladies very much.
Camille Grammer joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Bill O`Reilly says it`s time for Speaker of the House John Boehner to get his emotions under control and stop all the crying.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: She`s gone from being a "Real Housewife of Beverly Hills" to a soon to be ex-wife of Kelsey Grammer. Camille Grammer`s private life has become a very big public scandal. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMILLE GRAMMER, KELSEY GRAMMER`S EX WIFE: My husband called me and told me that he was done with our marriage.
Hey.
KELSEY GRAMMER, ACTOR: So?
C. GRAMMER: And then he said, why don`t we do this? If you come to the Tonys, maybe we can have a romantic weekend. Let`s just see how it works out.
Congratulations. And good luck tonight.
K. GRAMMER: Thank you.
C. GRAMMER: I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She`s too good.
Here now to talk about it all is Camille Grammer, herself. Welcome to the show, Camille.
C. GRAMMER: Thank you.
BEHAR: So you seem like such a nice, like you know, I`m going to go - - did you go to the Tonys with him anyway?
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: You did go?
C. GRAMMER: Went with him and I did have a good time.
BEHAR: You did?
C. GRAMMER: Yes but it was uncomfortable. You can see the body language.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: At that point you --
C. GRAMMER: -- he kept going away from me.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean, you knew everything at that point that he had the girlfriend on the side.
C. GRAMMER: I didn`t know about the girlfriend because he kept saying --
BEHAR: Oh.
C. GRAMMER: Sneaky.
BEHAR: So what did you know at that point?
C. GRAMMER: I knew that I had a feeling there was somebody because I wasn`t allowed into our apartment.
BEHAR: And that will do it.
C. GRAMMER: That will do it.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: But you know they always --
C. GRAMMER: They put me up in a hotel room, why do I have to go to a hotel room? We have our own apartment.
BEHAR: But you know what, Camille, they never leave unless they have another one on the side.
C. GRAMMER: I`m learning that now.
BEHAR: Say "thank you" because you`d never get rid of him otherwise. All right.
C. GRAMMER: True.
BEHAR: Now, exactly what do you think went wrong with the marriage? What do you think went wrong?
C. GRAMMER: You know what; I think we had a really good run of it. We were together for 14 years.
BEHAR: It was 13 this morning.
C. GRAMMER: Thirteen married, 14 together.
BEHAR: Oh and one year together.
C. GRAMMER: One year together.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
C. GRAMMER: What went wrong, I don`t know. Maybe we didn`t agree politically on everything.
BEHAR: No, because you -- you sort of mentioned a little bit about your sex life to Barbara this morning.
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: And you said that for two years you hadn`t had sex with him.
C. GRAMMER: I think it was a little longer than that. I mean, we tried. It`s just so -- we just didn`t mesh sexually.
BEHAR: It didn`t mesh anymore.
C. GRAMMER: We weren`t intimate.
BEHAR: Well, was it his fault or your fault or both?
C. GRAMMER: It could be both, but I mean, it was more on his end.
BEHAR: More on his end.
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, then again, good to be rid of him.
C. GRAMMER: Yes. I miss intimacy. I think that`s a really important part of a marriage is to be intimate with your partner. We really --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It`s nice. Yes, cuddling is fun.
C. GRAMMER: Oh, I love cuddling. We didn`t even do that.
BEHAR: Cuddling is fun, you didn`t do that.
C. GRAMMER: He was too busy watching Fox News. He didn`t want to cuddle.
BEHAR: Well, there`s a real turn-on.
C. GRAMMER: There you go.
BEHAR: So, I mean, like, do you think that he manipulated the whole thing, though? I -- I notice that he tells you to do the Beverly Hills show and he`s going to go to New York and do La Cage aux Folles. And what was that about? He`s --
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: And then my co-star --
BEHAR: Yes.
C. GRAMMER: -- wants me to do the show. And you see on the reunion show, she goes, I wanted you on the show and then Kelsey wanted -- it makes one think, I mean, I don`t know if it was totally set up but it makes one think. I mean, I think he had something going on for a while.
BEHAR: He -- yes and maybe want to just get rid of you at that point. Like you stay here and I`ll go there.
C. GRAMMER: I don`t know for sure but it`s -- I -- I have thought about it.
BEHAR: Yes.
C. GRAMMER: Yes, absolutely.
BEHAR: Ok. The other thing is that`s interesting and I talked about this before with you, that they`re saying, some people are calling you the most hated housewife in the history of the franchise.
C. GRAMMER: Isn`t that terrible? What an awful like title to have and by the way, I worked really hard at that. No. How terrible.
BEHAR: But I mean, what are we talking -- first of all, you`re sort of the victim in the situation. He`s the one who left and cheated and left you et cetera --
C. GRAMMER: Thank you for saying that. Hello.
BEHAR: Well, that`s true. But why are you being hated? Is -- do you -- this is like a psycho drama question now.
C. GRAMMER: Ok.
BEHAR: Is there anything that you`re doing to provoke people to say that about you?
C. GRAMMER: I think maybe it was me saying that I was honest about having four nannies. But you know I was married to Kelsey. It was our decision to have four nannies. We don`t have them in the house, you know, at the same time. We have a rotating -- a rotating schedule. I think that, you know --
BEHAR: You have -- that`s what did it. They think that --
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: I think that, I mean, my delivery, how I came across in the beginning.
BEHAR: Why do you need four nannies again?
C. GRAMMER: I don`t know. We were traveling a lot and we had --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: How many kids do you have?
C. GRAMMER: -- and we had girls quitting all the time. Honestly, it was just to have people in retainers so they don`t quit.
BEHAR: I see. Well, but how many children do you have?
C. GRAMMER: I have -- we have two children, and I have two stepdaughters, so four total.
BEHAR: I see. Ok.
Now, you find out about the girlfriend in the season finale. It`s interesting. Kelsey is always thinking about ratings, isn`t he?
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: Yes. I mean, he`s very talented, though, isn`t he?
BEHAR: I mean the last episode and suddenly he`s going to -- do you think he wants his own reality show and he was auditioning that day?
C. GRAMMER: Maybe. I know, he`s -- I found out through the press he`s working on a development deal for a reality show. I don`t think he`s going to be in it but I think he just wants to produce reality. He realizes that there`s money in it.
BEHAR: There`s money in reality shows. But doesn`t he have enough money?
C. GRAMMER: I think so.
BEHAR: He has a lot of money. And how much money are we talking about?
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: I think -- I mean, I don`t really know, you know, the numbers. Because and you know what, it`s been exaggerated honestly.
BEHAR: I heard $60 million. Is that about right?
C. GRAMMER: I don`t know.
BEHAR: You don`t know, well, you should know because you didn`t sign a --
C. GRAMMER: Well, I don`t want to say. I did, I just don`t want to talk about it.
BEHAR: Ok, all right. Well, that`s more to the point. But you didn`t sign a pre-nup.
C. GRAMMER: No, I didn`t.
BEHAR: Why -- how come he didn`t -- he didn`t insist on that with all his cash?
C. GRAMMER: Because he said to me, you`re number three, three`s a charm and I don`t want to get married again. You`re it. I`m so in love with you. And we can`t do that.
BEHAR: An incurable romantic.
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: That type is not to be trusted because they`ll be incurably romantic with the next one.
C. GRAMMER: Obviously.
BEHAR: A practical guy is a better bet. We`re going to have more with Camille Grammer when we return. There`s more to this story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR show is today`s girly-girl-princess culture corrupting the lives of young girls? Joy talks with the author of the controversial new book, "Cinderella Ate my Daughter". Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Don`t you love it?
I`m back with my favorite "Housewife from Beverly Hills", Camille Grammer. Tell me about the day that Kelsey brought the kids on to "The Letterman Show".
C. GRAMMER: Oh, that was terrible.
BEHAR: What happened there? He was in the greenroom --
C. GRAMMER: Well, actually the kids were in the greenroom with Kate. I think Jude, my son was sitting on Kate`s lap.
BEHAR: This is the new girlfriend.
C. GRAMMER: The new girlfriend, yes. And I just dropped the kids off that morning and Kelsey is on Letterman saying, how we`re spending all the time with the kids. I`m like really, I just dropped them off that morning. That was the morning I met Kate.
BEHAR: How was that?
C. GRAMMER: That was uncomfortable. I got a text from Kelsey because we don`t speak. He texted me and said Kate and I will be here to pick the kids up. So I went downstairs and I wanted to meet the woman who`s going to be the stepmother of my children.
BEHAR: Maybe.
C. GRAMMER: Maybe.
BEHAR: You know, it isn`t over until it`s over.
C. GRAMMER: I also think it`s important for the kids to know that, you know, mom and dad can be civil in front of one another.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true.
C. GRAMMER: You have to do what`s right for your kids.
BEHAR: Let me clear something up about Kelsey cross dressing. You put that out then you said it was a joke.
C. GRAMMER: I didn`t say it.
BEHAR: What happened? What is that then?
C. GRAMMER: We were talking about it. I said he`s in the perfect play. And they were asking me why. It was a play on him being in La Cage aux Folles -- I said I knew I was going to lose him through the play. (INAUDIBLE) They said was he gay? I said no. And that`s when the cross dressing thing came out.
But no. Howard and I have known him forever. We were just -- we were having fund. It was more of a joke than anything else.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. So he never wore women`s panties or anything?
C. GRAMMER: He`s got great legs. Let me just tell you.
BEHAR: Because, you know, Carey Grant, I read that he used to wear women`s underwear. Underpants. Why? He said because they were more comfortable.
C. GRAMMER: I`ve seen him in a Halloween costume as a woman, Kelsey.
BEHAR: Who, Kelsey?
C. GRAMMER: Yes, in a Halloween costume.
BEHAR: Ok. And then La Cage aux Folles; he`s on -- as they say on the continuum towards cross dressing. He likes it I think.
C. GRAMMER: He`s an actor. He likes to explore certain things.
BEHAR: He`s an actor.
Now you said that one of your co-stars said no one would care about you without Kelsey. Who said that?
C. GRAMMER: It was Kylie. It wasn`t really about that.
BEHAR: Is she the one you always fight with?
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: Are you really mad at her?
C. GRAMMER: We get angry, yes.
BEHAR: Is there hair pulling.
C. GRAMMER: No hair pulling. No.
BEHAR: Do you speak to her after the show?
C. GRAMMER: I haven`t talked to her since the reunion show. So that`s going to be three or four weeks.
BEHAR: Before we go, what`s your plan? Do you have another boyfriend? Do you want to marry another celebrity?
C. GRAMMER: I don`t have another boyfriend right now. Right now I want to heal, focus on my children and get through this divorce because I want it over with, too.
BEHAR: You know what, can I give you advice? You can focus on your children and get through the pain with another guy on the side. Trust me.
C. GRAMMER: Find me one.
BEHAR: As a matter of fact, it eases the pain quite a bit.
C. GRAMMER: I bet.
BEHAR: When you`re running in slow motion with the next number. Believe me.
You can see Camille in part two of "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" reunion show tomorrow at 10:00 p.m. on Bravo.
We`ll be right back. Believe me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT", the big Charlie Sheen shakeup. Why rehab could cost Sheen $250 million. At 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Groundhog Day isn`t until Wednesday, yet I feel that I`ve heard this story over and over and over again. Charlie Sheen back in rehab, but this time his alleged cocaine-fueled bender landed him in the hospital and put his hit show, "Two and a Half Men," on definite hiatus.
With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news, are Kurt Warner, former all-pro football player. Jacque Reid, TV and radio journalist. And comedian extraordinaire, Jimmy Tingle. Welcome to the show.
Now, you know, his reps said he voluntarily checked into rehab. But this is what Sheen sent to Radaronline, OK, he said, "I`m fine. People don`t seem to get it. Guy can`t have a great time and do his job also?"
Jacque, he sounds like he didn`t go voluntarily. What do you think?
JACQUE REID, TV & RADIO JOURNALIST: I don`t think so, because his father and his ex-wife Denise Richards visited him in the hospital, and after that he makes the decision to go into rehab.
I think he doesn`t have a choice here. I mean, this guy is making $1 million plus an episode, yet he`s out there living it up thinking he can just have a good time and be irresponsible about the show that he`s tied to.
BEHAR: What do you think, Jimmy?
JIMMY TINGLE, COMEDIAN: I think he texted that before the vodka wore off, I think.
(LAUGHTER)
TINGLE: And you know, I`m glad the guy`s in the hospital. I`m glad he`s getting help. You can see how one person`s disease, and addiction, can affect literally a whole network. And all these people working for him--
BEHAR: Oh yeah.
TINGLE: His family, all these people who care about him. And I just hope he gets help and gets out and gets his act together.
BEHAR: Well, you know, Kurt, the cast and crew of "Two and a Half Men" may not be compensated for three months.
KURT WARNER, RETIRED FOOTBALL PLAYER: I know.
BEHAR: So everybody loses money. Do you think he should pay them out of his own $2 million-a-week paycheck?
WARNER: I don`t know about that. You think he should?
REID: I think he absolutely should, because even before this bout with rehab, they were having to change the storyline a bit and give Jon Cryer more to do on the show, because he wasn`t as reliable.
WARNER: Yes, but he`s also the star of the show. I mean, he`s one of the reasons they`re there, where they`re at.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He`s probably the main reason.
WARNER: Well, exactly. So I mean, you have to look at the big picture.
REID: But he made a commitment to being there.
WARNER: You`re right. I agree, I mean, I agree they`re being affected by it. But I don`t know about paying them out of pocket for that.
BEHAR: What do you think, Jimmy? You think he should take it out of his pay (ph)?
TINGLE: I think there`s got to be consequences for it. You know, I mean, because somebody with that much money and that much -- so many yes- men around them, right, they can do basically what they want. But if CBS puts it in the contract, if they put it -- now, you know, starting now if they put it in the contract, that any future, you know, trips to rehab, you`re personally responsible, it`s coming out of your pocket, it might make a difference.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: It`s like fines in football when you mess up.
WARNER: But he`s had some of these problems before and it keeps making them money, so they keep bringing him back, and it hasn`t been that issue up to this point. Now it`s gone over the line, so now --
BEHAR: I think it turned a corner.
WARNER: Now we get the questions.
BEHAR: But listen to this, Kacey Jordan, one of the porn stars who partied with Sheen before he was rushed to the hospital told "Good Morning America" she feared he was on a suicide binge and smoked cocaine all night. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KACEY JORDAN: It was all over the bathroom counter, because he was, like, chiseling it off and putting it in there repeatedly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you said he was hitting his pipe every two minutes.
JORDAN: Like, two to five minutes, just hitting it, just -- all I hear is "light, light, light."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All night?
JORDAN: All night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Is he a drug addict or does he have a death wish?
TINGLE: Was that Sarah Palin doing the interview?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: No, I don`t know who that was, no.
TINGLE: He`s a drug addict obviously. And you know what the crazy thing is--
BEHAR: But does he have a death wish?
TINGLE: Probably. I don`t know. You can`t really say. But you know what the thing is? This is an epidemic in the country. It`s not just him. And for every rich and famous person that has this type of problem, there`s literally millions of people in the country and around the world that have the same type of problems, and they need the help just as much as that guy needs the help.
BEHAR: But we`re in a recession and a depression here. They -- always yelling the economy`s going to hell in a hand basket. Where do they get the money for coke, these people?
(CROSSTALK)
REID: $2 million an episode. I mean--
BEHAR: Not him.
(CROSSTALK)
TINGLE: Well, apparently, it`s pretty cheap. The drugs are --
BEHAR: Really?
TINGLE: Oh, yeah.
REID: Depending on what--
(CROSSTALK)
TINGLE: You know what`s not cheap, though? Rehab isn`t cheap. And that`s the states and the cities and the towns don`t have the money to put into the treatment centers that they used to have. And we need -- and to me it`s a national defense issue.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: Well, the saddest thing is to see him self-destruct like this in front of the two little girls that he has, the two beautiful girls that are watching their father do all of this. It`s just heartbreaking.
BEHAR: You know what, my friend -- one of my friends who is in the hospital, my friend Vinny, he`s ill right now, he`s a drug counselor. And he says that any addiction supersedes all relationships, that once you have an addiction, everything else is on the second or third tier. OK?
TINGLE: He`s a sick guy. That`s the bottom line.
BEHAR: Yes.
REID: Yes. He needs help.
BEHAR: We hope Vinny gets better, though.
Next up, Bristol Palin was supposed to speak at Washington University in St. Louis about sexual responsibility until "Private Practice" star Kate Walsh sent out a tweet encouraging students to protest. OK? What do you think about that? Should someone who`s a teen mom be a keynote speaker at an event about sexual responsibility? Jacque?
REID: I don`t think Bristol Palin should be the keynote speaker, and I definitely don`t think she should get paid $20,000 to do it. I think she made a big mistake as a teen, as she has admitted, that she made a mistake when she was younger, but I think to be a keynote speaker and go around the country -- if she really wants to help, do it for free, and talk to your peers, talk to other young girls. Don`t go to colleges and do it.
BEHAR: Well, why shouldn`t she make money, though? I mean, everybody makes money. If she`s going to be a speaker--
REID: Because she (inaudible) a typical teen mom. I mean, I don`t think--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But she`s the poster child for what not to do. Maybe that`s better than somebody who just preaches.
REID: Yeah.
TINGLE: Joy, $20,000, that buys a lot of condoms. You know?
BEHAR: It`s true.
WARNER: Well, it`s also the fact that I think she`s trying to be a mom, too, and take care of her child. And so here`s an opportunity for her to help other young women to stay away from making the same mistake that she made, and also to make a living for her child, and, you know, do that part of it, too. So I mean, she could go around and do it for free, but I think this is a way that she can sort of kill two birds with one stone and do something positive.
BEHAR: I mean, some people have said that Bristol speaking about abstinence is like Michele Bachmann talking about, you know, American history. The woman called John Quincy Adams one of the founding fathers the other day and said that the founding fathers -- this is Michele Bachmann -- the founding fathers were totally against slavery. Hello, they had dozens of them.
REID: Right.
WARNER: But don`t you think that so often when we make a mistake, to some degree it makes us an expert on what that mistake can do and how it can affect us.
BEHAR: That`s right.
WARNER: So you know, her going through that and understanding the ramifications of it, I think it makes her a little bit more of an expert of what this can to someone`s life if you make this mistake at a young age.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: -- a typical teen mom. OK, I mean, she understands what it`s like to not supposed to have sex at a certain age and have it, but does she really get what it`s like to be a typical teen mom in this country? Most of them are, you know, living very poorly.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She doesn`t have money. That`s why she`s trying to make money.
WARNER: It`s probably more difficult, exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, her mother is making money left and right.
REID: Yeah.
BEHAR: Moving on, Bill O`Reilly is not a fan of speaker of the House John Boehner`s crying jags, saying he needs to get his emotions under control. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: A lot of Americans, you know, well, the guy`s crying every two minutes, does that mean he`s strong? Does that impact on his leadership? His credibility? You know, I made the assertion that Putin is over there laughing at him, because Putin is wrestling, you know, polar bears without his shirt and has never cried in his life and he`s going, look at this sissy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, O`Reilly and I, we agree on this. I`ll tell you the truth. Because that hiker that cut off his arm didn`t cry that much. You know that guy?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Who was stranded in the mountain, he cut his arm off, never shed a tear. You mention the word, my father swept -- I swept the floor -- waterworks on this guy.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: He didn`t cry at the State of the Union. I thought he was.
BEHAR: Almost.
REID: Almost.
BEHAR: As a matter of fact, do you think, now that you brought that up, do you think -- because people are saying that Obama deliberately tried to get him to cry by saying the sweeping thing. It`s all about the sweeping.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: I thought it was an interesting place to go at the very end of the State of the Union. He goes there, and the camera`s right there and totally distracted me. I`m on Twitter, like is he going to cry? Is he going to cry? And everybody on Twitter was talking about that.
BEHAR: You know, Obama has a great sense of humor. I have a feeling he did it on purpose.
REID: I like to think that he did.
TINGLE: No, no way, no way.
WARNER: I played for a great coach in Dick Vermeil. He cried every two minutes as well.
BEHAR: Really?
WARNER: So he was a great leader. We won the Super Bowl with him.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: -- about him crying that much?
WARNER: Because it was sincere. So we knew him personally.
REID: What did he cry about?
WARNER: Everything. You know? I mean--
(LAUGHTER)
WARNER: It didn`t really matter. I mean, it might have been about sweeping. I don`t know what. You know, I don`t know what it was about.
(CROSSTALK)
TINGLE: But there is a double standard, I think. Could you imagine if Obama cried on television?
BEHAR: No.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Are you kidding me? These people would be yelling, of course he`s crying, communism collapsed.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Forget it if it were a woman. A woman is not allowed to cry.
REID: Forget it, forget it.
TINGLE: Well, she did, and it was front page news for a week solid.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right. It`s like when Nancy Pelosi, who is a tough girl, when she`s tough, they attack her for that, but you know, if she started crying, then they would be upset.
TINGLE: And also, when Boehner found out what O`Reilly said, he started crying.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: It`s just unusual.
BEHAR: OK. One more story I think we have time for. Natalie Portman won best actress at the SAG awards last night for playing a crazy ballerina in "Black Swan" and now is the front-runner for the Oscar. So I ask you, Jacque, do women have to play crazy women to win Hollywood`s highest honors? I cite you Nicole Kidman in "The Hours," Kathy Bates in "Misery." She won for that. Angelina Jolie in "Girl Interrupted" and Jessica Lange in "Blue Sky." All nutcases.
REID: I say no. I mean, I think that there would be a lot in the African-American community who would say it would be more that the black actresses have to play something very extreme, like Mo`nique in "Precious" or Halle Berry in "Monster`s Ball" in order to get recognized. But I mean- -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: How about "Stella Got Her Groove Back?" That was OK.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
REID: But that wasn`t an Oscar movie.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: But I mean, look at Julia Roberts in "Erin Brockovich." Look at--
BEHAR: Right.
REID: I mean, there`s so many, Helen Mirren in "The Queen." I mean, there is so many women who have won Oscars for not acting crazy.
BEHAR: Well, so just FYI, Natalie Portman had to learn ballet and lose 20 pounds. The crazy thing is she took the job.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: But she also fell in love.
WARNER: They have to play a role that`s not just like they are every day. I mean--
REID: That`s the thing.
WARNER: You can be good doing what you do every day, but when you do something out of the box and out of the ordinary--
REID: That`s what it is.
WARNER: Even though they might be crazy --
REID: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, before we go, before we go, I have to ask you about the predictions for the Super Bowl.
WARNER: OK.
BEHAR: Green Bay Backers -- Packers or Pittsburgh Steelers? I don`t know one from the other, but I`m going to put my money on whatever you tell me.
WARNER: OK. Well, I`m -- you`ve got to listen to my reasoning now. But I am going to pick the Packers, and it`s solely because the Steelers beat me two years ago and took my ring from me. So I don`t know if there`s a lot of theory behind that--
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
WARNER: -- but I`m going with the Packers.
BEHAR: You heard it here. Thank you guys very much. Jimmy Tingle`s CD, "Humor for Humanity" is available at JimmyTingle.com. And Kurt Warner is the spokesperson for Power Those who Protect Us. They have a partnership with the National Volunteer Firefighter Council and Duracell, which helps provide supplies to firehouses across the country. We`ll be right back. We`re running out of time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: It seems a lot of little girls like to dress up and play princess these days, but unless their mothers live in Buckingham Palace, it`s probably just a phase, right? But what if it`s not? Could our girly girl culture of makeup and frills and poofy dresses be putting too much emphasis on all the wrong things, or is it just a harmless rite of passage?
Here to discuss that question and more are Peggy Orenstein, author of "Cinderella Ate My Daughter: Dispatches From the Frontlines of the New Girly Girl Culture." And E.D. Hill, conservative pundit and author of "I`m Not Your Friend, I`m Your Parent."
OK? All righty.
E.D. HILL, CONSERVATIVE PUNDIT: I`m the mean one.
BEHAR: So, Peggy, you have a 7-year-old daughter who at 3 was role playing as Snow White. But you never told her the story of Snow White. Where did she come up with that? Were you shocked about this? Where did you hear about Snow White?
PEGGY ORENSTEIN, AUTHOR, "CINDERELLA ATE MY DAUGHTER": Well, she leaves the house.
BEHAR: Oh, she leaves--
ORENSTEIN: She went -- she leaves the house occasionally. She went to a preschool, and as if by osmosis, she had come home knowing all the names and gown colors of the Disney princesses, which you know, that in and of itself was not necessarily a problem. But as I looked around and I started seeing the kind of pervasiveness of pink and pretty and the shirts with the crowns on them that say, "give me the credit card and nobody gets hurt," and "spoiled" and "brat." You know, it started to be a culture that began to disturb me as a mother.
BEHAR: A-ha. Wow. But what about the -- I`m still working on the Snow White. Did she know dwarves? Was she watching that show on TLC, "Little People?" Where did she come up with it?
ORENSTEIN: No, she went to preschool. She went to preschool, yes. She goes to preschool, and she came home. She was at her -- at my niece`s bat mitzvah, laying on the ground surrounded by teenagers, waiting for Prince Charming to come and kiss her and wake her up.
BEHAR: Now, this whole thing prompted you to do some extensive research on girls and the princess culture. So what messages do you think girls are getting from this girly girl culture exactly? What do you think?
ORENSTEIN: Well, you know what, what I think is happening is that if we were talking about this 10 years ago, we would be talking about provocative dress and sexualization and such with teenagers. But now what`s going on is that girls younger and younger and younger are getting the message that they should define themselves through appearance, through play sexiness, and through being the fairest and ultimately the hottest of them all.
BEHAR: OK, now, E.D., you have two daughters, right?
HILL: Two daughters and one stepdaughter.
BEHAR: And a stepdaughter. So do you buy this?
HILL: No.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You don`t.
HILL: I just don`t. I think -- I think that there are some very good points. I think that those t-shirts, with "give me the credit card or you don`t get hurt," are ridiculous. But then again, these kids aren`t buying it for themselves. They`re not going out and buying all this stuff. Their parents are. So what this comes down to is parents are making that choice.
But aside from that, I don`t think you can put kids in a princess dress and a tiara on their heads and all of a sudden they`re weak and are going to be waiting for men their entire life. That comes down to parenting.
ORENSTEIN: Gosh, that`s simplistic. You really think that`s what I`m saying? That`s ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Well, that`s what I take away from it.
BEHAR: OK. Clarify.
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: Well, I think that -- well, then you haven`t read the book, obviously. But--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s right. Clarify what you`re saying.
ORENSTEIN: What we`re talking about is parenting. I think parenting is a big issue, but it`s really hard, you know, if you walk into Wal-Mart, if you walk into Target, it`s very hard to make different kinds of choices. And all your relatives are going to be giving that stuff to you. So yes, I think absolutely my point is about intentional parenting and knowing what you`re doing. But I also have a lot of sympathy. You know, I`m a mom, too.
HILL: But if you were to say that it`s just because of what they`re wearing -- I agree, there is a lot of stuff out there. I was in Wal-Mart yesterday. So I know what`s out there. But I don`t buy it for my daughter. However, even if I --
ORENSTEIN: Nor do i.
HILL: Yes. Even if I did, I don`t think that that`s going to change her personality or make her dependent on boys or men later on.
BEHAR: Isn`t it always the argument that it`s the parents versus the media? And the argument is always the buck stops with the parents. Right? Which is what you`re saying.
HILL: I agree.
BEHAR: But there is something to be said for 24/7 assaults on the psyche of children.
ORENSTEIN: Absolutely.
HILL: OK, but it`s not 24/7.
ORENSTEIN: And to think that the media has no impact whatsoever --
HILL: I didn`t say that.
ORENSTEIN: -- is kind of ridiculous.
HILL: It does. However, take, for example, the movie I saw this weekend with my daughter, "Tangled." Now, this is one of those --
ORENSTEIN: "Tangled" is wonderful.
HILL: Rumpelstiltskin. However -- no, not--
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: Rapunzel.
HILL: Rapunzel. But you know, in this, Rapunzel, and I`m seeing this more and more is a strong person.
BEHAR: I hated my hair after Rapunzel. I`m just saying.
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: But you know what, E.D., you know what, when you get to -- when you go down the aisles of Target or Toys "R" Us, that frying pan that she has, that strong woman that you see, she turns into the "Tangled" mega cosmetics kid, the Rapunzel hair braider--
HILL: But you don`t buy it then!
ORENSTEIN: And the vanity mirror. Oh, yes, but you have got your little -- I mean, of course you don`t have to. I don`t buy it. But what I am also talking about is what is coming at girls and what is coming at their parents. And to just say --
BEHAR: But you know, we all grew up --
ORENSTEIN: To just say no is really not good enough. You really have to find what you can say yes to.
BEHAR: Somebody wrote a book called "The Cinderella Complex." OK. Somebody wrote a book called "The Cinderella Complex," somebody named Dowling years ago, and she basically is saying that it develops this rescue fantasy in women, that the prince is going to come and save us, he`s going to pay the bills. You know, lift me, carry me. And in a certain way, we`re all brainwashed that way as children.
HILL: Again, but--
ORENSTEIN: But you know, Joy --
HILL: I go --
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: You know, what you see-- sorry.
BEHAR: We`re going to continue this discussion.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Peggy, I know. We`re going to let you talk in just a second. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel and we`re talking about the princess culture and the effect it has on our daughters. I was thinking, Peggy, the Barbie dolls are actually much worse than the princess dolls, I think, because those girls are very sexual, those little dolls. You know, they have breasts--
ORENSTEIN: You know, I`ll tell you--
BEHAR: Weird breasts and no hips, which very few girls have big breasts and no hips. That is like an unnatural body for most women. Am I right?
ORENSTEIN: Mm-hmm. You know, but I have to tell you that these days Barbie seems pretty quaint to me. You know, when you start looking at Bratz dolls and Monster High dolls and TY Girlz dolls, Barbie -- they leave you begging for Barbie.
HILL: I`m with you on that one. Those Bratz dolls drive me nuts.
BEHAR: What are the Bratz dolls? I don`t know about these.
HILL: You don`t want them.
ORENSTEIN: Oh, Joy.
BEHAR: What do they do? And they`re bratty (ph)?
HILL: Yes. It`s Bratz, and they`re dressed, you know, in a provocative way. You know, Barbie, they`ve got --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: -- Nurse Barbie and Doctor Barbie and Lawyer Barbie and all that. But you know, but I get back to it. My mom is as fruffy as they come. And you know, I`ve got this picture that she`d kill me if I put it up -- which I will -- but it`s got my mom and her sister with these huge bows in her hair. It didn`t impact my mom. She`s as tough as nails. I mean, this woman packs a pistol in her purse.
ORENSTEIN: You know what?
BEHAR: Really?
ORENSTEIN: Your mom -- to me, comparing what is coming at girls now with what came at girls even when I was young, let alone your mom -- I can`t see so I don`t know how old you are -- but it`s like saying, you know, when I was a kid, we had five TV channels and now we have a satellite dish. That`s the difference in the magnitude of marketing the message that`s coming at these girls.
BEHAR: That`s true. Now, let me talk about Miley Cyrus, because you talk about -- you wrote about her going to a concert. What did you see at the Miley Cyrus concert? Did something bother you there?
ORENSTEIN: I went to the Miley Cyrus concert so you don`t have to.
BEHAR: Thank you. That was sweet of you.
(LAUGHTER)
ORENSTEIN: When I saw the marketing of those -- I call them the flesh and blood Disney princesses, is that they start out being marketed as very wholesome., You know, they wear those "true love waits" rings and they say that they are making choices that parents love. And then, you know, three months later, they`re dancing on the stripper pole.
BEHAR: I know.
ORENSTEIN: And I don`t think that you can make wholesomeness a marketing gimmick without making what comes after a marketing gimmick as well.
BEHAR: That`s true. Now, listen to this. In a recent AOL poll, girls from 9 to 15 years old voted Miley Cyrus as the worst celebrity role model. Aren`t girls smarter than we give credit -- than we`re giving them credit for, really? They get it.
ORENSTEIN: I actually don`t think -- I think girls are so smart. I love them. But you know what, it`s confusing when for the five years before that they were told that Miley Cyrus is the greatest role model. So what happens when that flip-flop keeps happening to them?
HILL: I think your parents ultimately are the kids` greatest role models. They`re the people who are with the children more than anyone else, including the people at school. They`re the ones who set by example. You know--
ORENSTEIN: And I would agree--
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: I will totally agree with E.D. on that.
BEHAR: You do, yes. But I don`t know if you--
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: We parents are incredibly important.
(CROSSTALK)
ORENSTEIN: But we parents are incredibly important, yes.
BEHAR: A lot of girls are running around with tiaras these days and it looks ridiculous.
Thank you all for joining me tonight.
HILL: I`m not letting you borrow mine, then. Forget that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Good night, everybody. OK.
END
