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Joy Behar Page
This Week in Sheen; Halle Berry`s Custody Battle; Barbara Bush for Gay Marriage
Aired February 04, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Why am I wearing a bright red top today? Because it`s National Wear Red Day; part of the Go Red for Women campaign. It`s all about promoting heart health and not just for women; that means you guys, too.
After a week of rumors and stories about his briefcase full of cocaine, at home rehab, his sitcom being shelved and his parents being interested in seeking legal control over him, guess who I`m talking about? Charlie Sheen has finally broken down and told E! that all of this is "All crap. Believe nothing. I will never speak about any of this as long as I`m alive. You`re all going to have to keep towing the same redundant line guessing wrong." It may be the only line in town he hasn`t snorted.
With me now to talk about this and other dishy stories in the news this week are comedian Kathleen Madigan; Noah Levy, senior editor for "In Touch Weekly"; and Taryn Rose, fabulous shoe designer, and actually -- welcome to the show, guys -- also an orthopedic surgeon, I might point out. How do you become a shoe designer and orthopedic surgeon?
TARYN ROSE, SHOE DESIGNER: I married not the right guy.
BEHAR: She married the wrong guy. That`s why her name is Taryn Rose. Well, we`ll get to that some other time.
Let`s go to Charlie Sheen. He says he believes -- you should believe nothing and he will never speak about any of it. Do you buy it? I mean, he loves to talk and talk this guy.
NOAH LEVY, SENIOR EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Yes. Well, I mean drug addicts are usually the best liars and the most charismatic people. But the interesting thing is, you know, his family wants to have a conservatorship over all his finances. So he`s going to be in the same family as Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan. It makes perfect sense: if you`re sleeping with 19-year-old girls you should be treated like one also.
BEHAR: But he`s 45 years old.
(CROSSTALK)
KATHLEEN MADIGAN, COMEDIAN: I mean I would love it if my parents took control of everything in my life. That would be great. I wouldn`t have the responsibility.
But you can`t -- I don`t think you can -- I don`t have a problem with him. I like it when he says can`t a guy just have fun and go to work? What do I care if he`s doing briefcases of cocaine? Literally briefcase full of cocaine, do it.
LEVY: Well, he`s also helping the economy.
MADIGAN: And if you have the money and time and you`re not getting in trouble, he clearly has not hit his own version of rock bottom and I`d like to see what that is.
LEVY: He`s helping the homeless community. He`s helping the homeless community, taking homeless hookers off the street giving them a check for $30,000.
BEHAR: That`s right.
He`s making Los Angeles safe for people like you.
ROSE: You know, he`s doing rehab at home. I don`t do surgery at home.
BEHAR: You don`t?
ROSE: No. You know, this is a medical issue. I think he needs to take this seriously.
BEHAR: That`s right. Now he`s comparing himself to Errol Flynn. For those of you out there who are under 80, Errol Flynn played a swashbuckler (INAUDIBLE), you`ll see. But this is what he says. "Like Errol Flynn who had to put down his sword on occasion" -- on a few young women also -- "I just want to say thank you."
He put down his sword plenty. He was infamous for heavy drinking, womanizing and was accused of and cleared of statutory rape of two underage girls and he also died at 50. Do you think he knows the real truth about Errol Flynn?
MADIGAN: I don`t think -- first of all, how much coke do you have to do to come up and cite Errol Flynn? I mean what channel were you watching where that movie was on? I`m like that guy. And Fatty (INAUDIBLE) was right too. Don`t you tell me, I`m going down the way fatty went down; I`m fighting it, partying.
LEVY: It`s true. Well, other great drug addicts have done the same thing. Natalie Cole and Stevie Nicks have written songs about Errol Flynn also in their --
BEHAR: Really?
LEVY: No but still --
BEHAR: I wish I had gone out with him. I was probably too old for him even in 1920 before I was even born.
MADIGAN: I drank a lot in my life and he`s never come to mind. I think it`s a drug thing.
BEHAR: Wait a second. He`s also, what`s his name, Charlie, I forgot who we were talking about for a second there. He`s really costing them money. You know, production has been shut down on "Two and a Half Men" and a lot of people are losing money because of that. Who should pay the salaries, do you think, of the crew and other cast members?
MADIGAN: Well, it would be nice if he did, but the network, that show has been a big hit. That`s why they let Charlie run wild. No one cares either because he`s always with hookers. Like if it was one lady and he was being a jackass every week, you`d be like, that is really mean to Cindy. But it`s not Cindy. It`s 50 million hookers, no one knows who they are.
BEHAR: Who`s Cindy?
MADIGAN: I don`t know, I just made that name up.
LEVY: She`s one of the hookers. Cindy`s one of the hookers.
MADIGAN: I say the network could pay the salaries. Look how much money he`s made for this network off that show.
BEHAR: So, the network should pay the money? You think?
ROSE: I think the network needs to get him under control because he`s, you know, it`s a repeat again. He says he`s going to be back in two weeks.
BEHAR: Right.
ROSE: So how is that changing anything?
BEHAR: I know but he does keep the job.
LEVY: He does and people love him. And you know, I think Charlie should pay. Charlie should pay and also the seven and a half women he`s sleeping with also.
MADIGAN: I think they should pay them in briefcases of cocaine.
BEHAR: All right.
Now Halle Berry`s custody battle is heating up with her ex-boyfriend Gabriel Aubry over their 2 1/2-year-old daughter, Nahla. Halle has not had much luck with her men, right?
ROSE: I walked in her shoes.
BEHAR: You walked in her shoes?
ROSE: Yes. There`s a study that shows that smart women tend to stay with men because they have that perfectionist need to succeed. So instead of walking away, they`re in "I`m going to make it work" mode. They stay longer than necessary or, you know, they realize the guy`s wrong but you know what, I`m not going to admit that. Make it work.
BEHAR: You know, I know you now and I know you`ve had some man troubles in your past. Are you always attracted to the wrong guy like Halle? I think she just doesn`t pick the right guys.
ROSE: I`m always attracted to the hot guy.
BEHAR: The hot guys.
ROSE: So now I need the genius hot guy.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, good luck with that.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: Let me know how that works out.
ROSE: Steven Hawking is available? Is he single?
BEHAR: So, you`re looking for like a model that has a brain? Is that what you`re looking for?
ROSE: Yes. Something like that. Yes.
BEHAR: Look around here. Do you see anything like that? I don`t think so.
LEVY: There are hand models out there with a very big brain.
BEHAR: That might be. Why is Halle in this position, do you think? Because she`s so beautiful; maybe she can only go for someone who`s as beautiful as she is. And a lot of times they`re not that bright or they`re mean.
MADIGAN: If you`re going to start, he`s a model. Let`s start with -- how far can we work up? Like account? I mean you`re starting at model. It`s not like I met this accountant and then he got smarter and he became this CFO.
Where we`re starting from -- I agree, you have get away from the hot guys.
BEHAR: Do you think --
MADIGAN: They don`t have to think.
BEHAR: -- that male models are just ipso facto dumb?
MADIGAN: Maybe.
ROSE: Not necessarily but --
LEVY: There have been some --
BEHAR: I don`t have any male models.
MADIGAN: Call in.
MADIGAN: See if anybody`s watching. If there are any male models --
ROSE: But don`t let me answer.
BEHAR: So, yes, she has a boyfriend now. Don`t you have a boyfriend who`s smart now?
ROSE: Well, you know --
BEHAR: Kind of.
MADIGAN: That was a very bad answer.
BEHAR: It`s very hard to find guys. I`m telling you, a lot of my friends -- very difficult to find good guys.
LEVY: It`s very true. I think unfortunately the relationship was doomed from the start. You know how these two met? They were introduced by Donatella Versace. Is that not foreshadowing of something dark?
BEHAR: Something dark and nefarious.
ROSE: Also another point, she`s much more famous and has won many awards so she gets a lot of attention. Maybe he doesn`t behave as well because studies have shown that men will put women down they feel are superior to them.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s very sad. But you know, I`m sure Halle will bounce back and find another gorgeous guy. She probably has already.
LEVY: She has four waiting for her.
BEHAR: Oh my God, all the men just go crazy for her.
MADIGAN: Better to just go for a cutie. Don`t go for the hottie. Go for somebody in the middle and then they won`t behave like --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know, I had a shrink who said just find someone who`s pleasant to be with.
MADIGAN: Wow. Good shrink.
BEHAR: Just pleasant to be with.
MADIGAN: Just lower the bar.
BEHAR: Just so happens, this is a true story, this is not a comedy. She had Alzheimer`s. I`m just saying. She did. She died of Alzheimer`s. I think during the session she had Alzheimer`s. It`s like Ronald Reagan. At least she wasn`t running a country. You`re just running my life.
ROSE: You could see it happening. You didn`t question it?
BEHAR: Who knew? You say to her, who`s the president of the United States? Oh, everybody knows that. They`re very slippery.
BEHAR: Ok. Here`s another story. Barbara Bush, not the mother, the daughter of George W. Bush, says she fully supports gay marriage. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA BUSH, DAUGHTER OF GEORGE W. BUSH: I`m Barbara Bush. I`m a New Yorker for marriage equality.
New York is about fairness and equality and everyone should have the right to marry the person that they love. Join us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now, that`s contrary to her father`s position. It`s like when Laura Bush endorsed reading. Remember that?
Taryn, her daddy opposed gay marriage when he was in office. What do you make of this? Is this a rebellious daughter going out there or what?
ROSE: I think the younger generation want equality for gays. I`m certainly for it. You know, now that I`m not going to get married anymore, my divorce attorneys need more clients.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok, but you know, Laura Bush also supports gay marriage.
LEVY: Yes. It only means George Bush is going to be around the corner and I say my prediction for 2013, George Bush is going to be hosting Gay Pride in New York.
MADIGAN: Wow.
BEHAR: Really? How about Dick Cheney? But he supports gay marriage because his daughter`s a lesbian.
LEVY: Well, yes, of course.
BEHAR: But so what? When he was in office, he did everything to prevent gay marriage and so did George Bush. So who cares if they support it? Put your money where your mouth is.
(CROSS TALK)
MADIGAN: Exactly.
LEVY: Well, yes. Well, we`ll see them at Gay Pride.
MADIGAN: But I don`t really understand why we care about what any of these kids say. They`re the kids of the people. They`re not running yet. Like Meghan McCain is on every five seconds. I -- I what have you done, why are you on my television? Except for, you`re John McCain`s daughter.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Well, she -- well, she is the new face of the Republican Party. And she`s a much more liberal voice for the Republicans.
LEVY: Yes.
(CROSS TALK)
MADIGAN: Yes but they`re not doing anything.
LEVY: It`s a contribution.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes but she will -- she`ll eventually run for something. She`ll be a Congresswoman and she`ll knock the other one, Michele Bachmann, right out of the --
LEVY: Yes.
MADIGAN: Starting now.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. Ok, one more story.
President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama have invited J-Lo and hubby Mark Anthony to watch the Super Bowl with them at the White House. What am I, chopped liver, Barack? I mean, you know, I heard that and I was very jealous. I got very jealous.
MADIGAN: What, you want to go watch it?
BEHAR: I want to -- yes, I would like to go. I hate football with a passion.
LEVY: Yes.
MADIGAN: But I didn`t -- I thought you didn`t like football, yes.
BEHAR: But to sit with the President and Mrs. Obama and watch it, I would love that.
LEVY: It does sound like the ultimate party. But unfortunately J-Lo requested that she would have her own dressing room, 12 white dogs and only white orchids. So it was -- it was a rough sell together with her.
BEHAR: How do you think they`re doing on "American Idol?" Steve Tyler and J-Lo?
MADIGAN: Oh yes I haven`t seen the new once, I quit after Paula. I - - I you don`t break --
BEHAR: Paula was the greatest.
MADIGAN: Yes, you come -- come on.
BEHAR: You need a train wreck on that show.
MADIGAN: Yes.
LEVY: You know what; Steven Tyler`s kind of amazing on it.
MADIGAN: Yes, I`ve heard.
LEVY: Yes, he`s kind of incredible.
BEHAR: But he`s starting to look like Joyce Wildenstein.
LEVY: And that`s why I love it. I love it.
(CROSS TALK)
ROSE: Just like the crying lady.
LEVY: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: And also the way he salivates over the young girls. Hello, dirty old man -- can we say it?
MADIGAN: It`s getting creepy.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you guys very much.
LEVY: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok. Kathleen Madigan`s stand-up DVD "Gone Madigan" is on sale right now. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She`s gone from being a "Real Housewife of Beverly Hills" to a soon to be ex-wife of Kelsey Grammer. Camille Grammer`s private life has become a very big public scandal. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMILLE GRAMMER, KELSEY GRAMMER`S EX WIFE: My husband called me and told me that he was done with our marriage.
Hey.
KELSEY GRAMMER, ACTOR: So?
C. GRAMMER: And then he said, why don`t we do this? If you come to the Tonys, maybe we can have a romantic weekend. Let`s just see how it works out.
Congratulations. And good luck tonight.
K. GRAMMER: Thank you.
C. GRAMMER: I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She`s too good.
Here now to talk about it all is Camille Grammer, herself. Welcome to the show, Camille.
C. GRAMMER: Thank you.
BEHAR: So you seem like such a nice, like you know, I`m going to go - - did you go to the Tonys with him anyway?
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: You did go?
C. GRAMMER: I went with him and I did have a good time.
BEHAR: You did?
C. GRAMMER: Yes but it was uncomfortable. You can see the body language.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: At that point you --
C. GRAMMER: -- he kept pulling away from me.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean, you knew everything at that point that he had the girlfriend on the side.
C. GRAMMER: I didn`t know about the girlfriend because he kept saying --
BEHAR: Oh.
C. GRAMMER: Sneaky.
BEHAR: So what did you know at that point?
C. GRAMMER: I knew that I had a feeling there was somebody because I wasn`t allowed into our apartment.
BEHAR: And that will do it.
C. GRAMMER: That will do it.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: But you know they always --
C. GRAMMER: They put me up in a hotel room. Why do I have to go to a hotel room? We have our own apartment.
BEHAR: But you know what, Camille, they never leave unless they have another one on the side.
C. GRAMMER: I`m learning that now.
BEHAR: Say "thank you" because you`d never get rid of him otherwise. All right.
C. GRAMMER: True.
BEHAR: Now, exactly what do you think went wrong with the marriage? What do you think went wrong?
C. GRAMMER: You know what; I think we had a really good run of it. We were together for 14 years.
BEHAR: It was 13 this morning.
C. GRAMMER: Thirteen married, 14 together.
BEHAR: Oh, and one year together.
C. GRAMMER: One year together.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
C. GRAMMER: What went wrong, I don`t know. Maybe we didn`t agree politically on everything.
BEHAR: No, because you -- you sort of mentioned a little bit about your sex life to Barbara this morning.
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: And you said that for two years you hadn`t had sex with him.
C. GRAMMER: I think it was a little longer than that. I mean, we tried. It`s just so -- we just didn`t mesh sexually.
BEHAR: It didn`t mesh anymore.
C. GRAMMER: We weren`t intimate.
BEHAR: Well, was it his fault or your fault or both?
C. GRAMMER: It could be both, but I mean, it was more on his end.
BEHAR: More on his end.
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, then again, good to be rid of him.
C. GRAMMER: Yes. I miss intimacy. I think that`s a really important part of a marriage is to be intimate with your partner. We really --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It`s nice. Yes, cuddling is fun.
C. GRAMMER: Oh, I love cuddling. We didn`t even do that.
BEHAR: Cuddling is fun, you didn`t do that.
C. GRAMMER: He was too busy watching Fox News. He didn`t want to cuddle.
BEHAR: Well, there`s a real turn-on.
C. GRAMMER: There you go.
BEHAR: So, I mean, like, do you think that he manipulated the whole thing, though? I -- I notice that he tells you to do the Beverly Hills show and he`s going to go to New York and do La Cage aux Folles. And what was that about? He`s --
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: And then my co-star --
BEHAR: Yes.
C. GRAMMER: -- wants me to do the show. And you see on the reunion show, she goes, I wanted you on the show and then Kelsey wanted -- it makes one think, I mean, I don`t know if it was totally set up but it makes one think. I mean, I think he had something going on for a while.
BEHAR: He -- yes and maybe want to just get rid of you at that point. Like you stay here and I`ll go there.
C. GRAMMER: I don`t know for sure but it`s -- I -- I have thought about it.
BEHAR: Yes.
C. GRAMMER: Yes, absolutely.
BEHAR: Ok. The other thing is that`s interesting and I talked about this before with you, that they`re saying, some people are calling you the most hated housewife in the history of the franchise.
C. GRAMMER: Isn`t that terrible? What an awful like title to have and by the way, I worked really hard at that. No.
How terrible.
BEHAR: But I mean, what are we talking -- first of all, you`re sort of the victim in the situation. He`s the one who left and cheated and left you et cetera --
C. GRAMMER: Thank you for saying that. Hello.
BEHAR: Well, that`s true. But why are you being hated? Is -- do you -- this is like a psycho drama question now.
C. GRAMMER: Ok.
BEHAR: Is there anything that you`re doing to provoke people to say that about you?
C. GRAMMER: I think maybe it was me saying that I was honest about having four nannies. But you know I was married to Kelsey. It was our decision to have four nannies. We don`t have them in the house, you know, at the same time. We have a rotating -- a rotating schedule. I think that, you know --
BEHAR: You have -- that`s what did it. They think that --
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: I think that, I mean, my delivery --
BEHAR: Yes.
C. GRAMMER: -- how I came across in the beginning.
BEHAR: Why do you need four nannies again?
C. GRAMMER: I don`t know. We were traveling a lot and --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: How many kids do you have?
C. GRAMMER: -- and we had girls quitting all the time. Honestly, it was just to have people in retainers so they don`t quit.
BEHAR: I see. Well, but how many children do you have?
C. GRAMMER: I have -- we have two children, and I have two stepdaughters, so four total.
BEHAR: I see. Ok.
Now, you find out about the girlfriend in the season finale. It`s interesting. Kelsey is always thinking about ratings, isn`t he?
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: Yes. I mean, he`s very talented, though, isn`t he?
BEHAR: I mean on the last episode and suddenly he`s going to -- do you think he wants his own reality show and he was auditioning that day?
C. GRAMMER: Maybe. I know, he`s -- I found out through the press he`s working on a development deal for a reality show. I don`t think he`s going to be in it but I think he just wants to produce reality. He realizes that there`s money in it.
BEHAR: There`s money in reality shows. But doesn`t he have enough money?
C. GRAMMER: I think so.
BEHAR: He has a lot of money. And how much money are we talking about?
(CROSS TALK)
C. GRAMMER: I think -- I mean, I don`t really know, you know, the numbers. Because and you know what, it`s been exaggerated honestly.
BEHAR: I heard $60 million. Is that about right?
C. GRAMMER: I don`t know.
BEHAR: You don`t know, well, you should know because you didn`t sign a --
C. GRAMMER: Well, I don`t want to say.
BEHAR: Ok, all right. Well, that`s more to the point.
C. GRAMMER: I did, I just don`t want to talk about it.
BEHAR: But you didn`t sign a pre-nup.
C. GRAMMER: No, I didn`t.
BEHAR: Why -- how come he didn`t -- he didn`t insist on that with all his cash?
C. GRAMMER: Because he said to me, you know, you`re number three. Three is a charm and I don`t want to get married again. You`re it. I`m so in love and I can`t do that.
BEHAR: An incurable romantic.
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: That type is not to be trusted because they`ll be incurably romantic with the next one.
C. GRAMMER: Obviously.
BEHAR: A practical guy is a better bet. We`re going to have more with Camille Grammer when we return. There`s more to this story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my favorite "Housewife of Beverly Hills", Camille Grammer. Tell me about the day that Kelsey brought the kids on to "The Letterman Show".
C. GRAMMER: Oh, that was terrible.
BEHAR: What happened there? He was in the greenroom --
C. GRAMMER: Well, actually the kids were in the greenroom with Kate. I think Jude, my son was sitting on Kate`s lap.
BEHAR: This is the new girlfriend.
C. GRAMMER: The new girlfriend, yes. And I just dropped the kids off that morning and Kelsey is on Letterman saying, how we`re spending all the time with the kids. I`m like really, I just dropped them off that morning. That was the morning I met Kate.
BEHAR: How was that?
C. GRAMMER: That was uncomfortable. I got a text from Kelsey because we don`t speak. He texted me and said Kate and I will be here to pick the kids up. So I went downstairs and I wanted to meet the woman who`s going to be the stepmother of my children.
BEHAR: Maybe.
C. GRAMMER: Maybe.
BEHAR: Maybe. You know, it isn`t over until it`s over.
C. GRAMMER: I also think it`s important for the kids to know that, you know, mom and dad can be civil in front of one another.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true.
C. GRAMMER: You have to do what`s right for your kids.
BEHAR: Let me clear something up about Kelsey cross dressing. You put that out then you said it was a joke.
C. GRAMMER: I didn`t say it.
BEHAR: What happened? What is that then?
C. GRAMMER: We were talking about it. I said he`s in the perfect play. And they were asking me why. It was a play on him being in La Cage aux Folles -- I said I knew I was going to lose him through the play, him being -- (INAUDIBLE). They said, was he gay? I said no. And that`s when the cross dressing thing came out.
But no. Howard and I have known him forever. We were just -- we were having fun. It was more of a joke than anything else.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. So he never wore women`s panties or anything?
C. GRAMMER: He`s got great legs. Let me just tell you.
BEHAR: Because, you know, Carey Grant, I read that he used to wear women`s underwear. Underpants. Why? He said because they were more comfortable.
C. GRAMMER: I`ve seen him in a Halloween costume as a woman, Kelsey.
BEHAR: Who, Kelsey?
C. GRAMMER: Yes, in a Halloween costume.
BEHAR: Ok. And then La Cage aux Folles; he`s on -- as they say on the continuum towards cross dressing. He likes it I think.
C. GRAMMER: He`s an actor. He likes to explore certain things.
BEHAR: He`s an actor.
Now you said that one of your co-stars said no one would care about you without Kelsey. Who said that?
C. GRAMMER: It was Kylie. It wasn`t really about that.
BEHAR: Is she the one you always fight with?
C. GRAMMER: Yes.
BEHAR: Are you really mad at her?
C. GRAMMER: We get angry, yes.
BEHAR: Is there like hair pulling.
C. GRAMMER: No hair pulling. No.
BEHAR: Do you speak to her after the show?
C. GRAMMER: I haven`t talked to her since the reunion show. So that`s going to be three or four weeks.
BEHAR: Before we go, what`s your plan? Do you have another boyfriend? Do you want to marry another celebrity?
C. GRAMMER: I don`t have another boyfriend right now. Right now I want to heal, focus on my children and get through this divorce because I want it over with, too.
BEHAR: You know what, can I give you advice? You can focus on your children and get through the pain with another guy on the side. Trust me.
C. GRAMMER: Find me one.
BEHAR: As a matter of fact, it eases the pain quite a bit.
C. GRAMMER: I bet.
BEHAR: When you`re running in slow motion with the next number. Believe me.
You can see Camille in part two of "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" reunion show tomorrow at 10:00 p.m. on Bravo.
We`ll be right back. Believe me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I want to show you some really horrifying video. 13-year-old Nadin Khoury was on his way home from school when he was jumped by seven other kids.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SCREAMS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK, six of the attackers were dragged out of school yesterday in handcuffs and the seventh teen was arrested this morning. One of these boys was brazen enough to record the beating on his cell phone.
I am joined now by a very brave Nadin Khoury, along with his mother Rebecca Khoury. Also with us is Dr. Phil.
OK. Rebecca, let me start with you. Describe what happened to your son as he walked home from school January 11th?
REBECCA KHOURY, MOTHER OF NADIN KHOURY: Well, he came home, January 11th; it was in the morning. A lady dropped him off from her car. I mean I don`t know who the lady is. I don`t know where`s she`s from.
The only thing I heard her say was, "Your son got jumped." I said "What?" She said, "He got jumped." And I seen Nadin getting out the car and he was hopping, walking towards me and I asked him, I said, "What`s wrong, Nadin?" He said, "Mommy, I got jumped by the boys in the school." I said, "What boys?"
And he actually pointed at one and I had -- I went after that one, and I called the cop, and they came and they got that one interviewed, and he, you know, start pointing at everyone that were involved.
He said he was not there. He wouldn`t have stood there and watched the whole thing happen. But after seeing the horrifying videotape, he was actually part of the beating that they did to my son.
BEHAR: Nadin, why did they attack you? Do you know -- is there any reason or was it just because they`re just bad boys?
NADIN KHOURY, BULLYING VICTIM: They had no reason, no reason I can think of. No reason of which I think they did it.
BEHAR: There`s no reason that you can think of. This is not the first time you were attacked, right? Tell me about the other times.
N. KHOURY: The other time, it was their friends, and one of the times when I was walking up the street to go catch the bus. They summoned their friends to come fight me one-on-one in the alley.
BEHAR: What do you know about these boys? Do you know who they are?
N. KHOURY: Yes.
BEHAR: You do? They`re in school with you?
N. KHOURY: Yes.
BEHAR: So they just picked on you, but for no reason?
N. KHOURY: For no reason. They pick on anyone what`s smaller than them. Everybody and anybody in the class that`s smaller than them, they`ll make fun of.
BEHAR: You know Rebecca, you fled Liberia, Africa in the year 2000 to escape civil war and seek a better life in America, and I`m so unhappy that this had to happen to your son in this country. I feel very sad for you.
R. KHOURY: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: What do you think will happen to these boys?
R. KHOURY: I just want them to pay for what they did. I wanted to get out there so they can know that it is not right to just go around and treat other kids like an animal because, you know, they can`t speak up for themselves or they`re young. It`s not fair.
And I`m so happy that, you know, they caught --
BEHAR: They caught them. Yes.
R. KHOURY: Yes, they caught them.
BEHAR: Thank you.
R. KHOURY: And actually get them over there for it. I thank you (ph) so much.
BEHAR: That`s right. We`re very happy that they caught them also. Good luck, kiddo.
R. KHOURY: Thank you so much. Thank you.
BEHAR: All right. OK. Now I want to bring in Dr. Phil. Hi, Dr. Phil. How are you?
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL SHOW": Hey, Joy, good to talk to you.
BEHAR: You know, this sounds like more than bullying. It seems like outright assault on this boy. Why is this stuff happening?
MCGRAW: Joy, clearly, it`s criminal. And look, how many children are we going to have to bury? How many kids are going to have to terrorized to the point that they miss school, they just lose their adolescence, before we all stand up in unison and say, look, enough is enough here? This has got to stop.
And you know, so these seven boys have been arrested. They`ll be prosecuted, and I`m sure they`ll get some time in juvie if they`re found guilty. No doubt about that.
But that`s not the solution here, Joy. This is not going to change until we, as I say, collectively stand up and say enough is enough and we empower the teachers, we empower the authorities with the curriculums necessary to teach kids that this is not OK. This is just not OK and we have got to teach them that it`s not.
BEHAR: It`s interesting that this other little thug videotaped the beating. What do you make of that?
MCGRAW: Well, I mean we have come into such a narcissistic generation at this point with YouTube and the advent of all these social networking sites and every phone being a camera. I mean, people think they have to have an audience from everything they do, from brushing their teeth to things that would normally draw attention, and that`s just absolutely ridiculous.
But the fact that they are so brazen, what this tells you is that they don`t expect accountability. And Joy, where are these kids` parents? Every bully has parents, and it`s their parents` job to know if their kids are out terrorizing others.
When this happened, there should have been seven parents or seven sets of parents on the front door of those people`s house ringing the doorbell saying, "I am sorry, how can we make this OK? How can we take this off of you and say we`re sorry and apologize?" And here`s our kid, you know, pulled up by the ear, saying they`re sorry and they`re going to be accountable for this.
BEHAR: I know.
MCGRAW: These bullies don`t just need punishment, they need help as well.
BEHAR: Well, you know that brings me to -- how do these kids develop into these little bullies? How does this happen? Where does it go wrong in their upbringing, for example?
MCGRAW: Well, here`s what we know, Joy. And there have been a lot of myths in the past about bullies are really insecure and so there`s just -- it`s a false sense of superiority. But our most recent research tells us that that`s actually not the case.
These kids are often precocious; they`re often larger, stronger and very self-confident. You know, it`s been said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And when you`re bigger and stronger and you can impose your will on someone else and there`s no check and balance system, it`s too much for these kids to handle.
We know that at home, that bullies often come from homes where there was violence in the home. They`re either bullied by a parent or they see parents bullying each other. They grow up in that culture where they learn this is just an OK way to express yourself; and it absolutely is not OK.
We need to train the parents. We need to give the teachers the curriculum. And this doesn`t need to be something you do in assembly at the 1st of the year. This needs to be an ongoing dialogue where bullies just learn that they will not be accepted. If everybody bands together and makes the bullies the outcasts, then they`ll stop doing that and become part of the whole.
BEHAR: That would be good. That`s a hard thing to do because these kids band together.
But you know, again -- you know, I was bullied as a kid because -- just because I was whatever, but it was mostly like threatening me or pushing me. This particular video shows much more aggressive violence. I mean, it`s not just the run of the mill bullying we`re talking about here. These kids need to be in jail.
MCGRAW: Well, obviously they do. And we`ve seen horrible examples of these, kids that have been hit in the head, homeless people who have been hit in the head and killed; a boy not long ago that was set on fire by some bullies. It`s just kind of like there`s no -- they just can`t pump the brake on their impulses.
And it tells me that these kids are not well-socialized. And I don`t want to just be a voice that points out the obvious that says these kids are just not well-socialized. What I`m saying is we need to get into the schools and teach these kids how to express themselves through words, how to problem solve, how to handle and resolve conflict.
And we`ve got to teach these kids that are targeted by this, that telling is not tattling, and for parents who make the mistake of saying, well, it`s just kids being kids. As you rightly point out, it has gone way beyond kids just being kids.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s right.
MCGRAW: This is violent assault and do not leave your child alone at this time. This is the time where your kid will say, mom, dad, don`t do anything, you`ll just make it worse. Not true. You need to take your child. You need to go to school. You need to talk to the counselors, talk to the administrators.
Don`t run in the school doors like your hair`s on fire screaming and yelling because the teachers don`t want this to happen. They don`t -- you know, bullies are smart. They don`t do this where the adults can see them. They do it off campus. They do it behind the gym. They do it behind the bleachers, but we have to step up and stop this stuff boundaries where the teachers say, well, it didn`t happen on school grounds, so there`s nothing we can do about it.
That`s wrong. They`re school -- they are school kids. That`s how they know each other.
BEHAR: The child tried to run. Nadin. He tried to run. How can a victim avoid being bullied? I mean, they need to have a little bit -- some kind of tools to deal with this. What can you do?
MCGRAW: That`s true. Of course, there are some things, and they seem pretty lame when you say them, actually. Because what you say is, look, try to avoid direct contact with the bullies. Try to be with a friend at all times. Talk about it if you are being bullied to get help. But the truth is, we know that`s a very inadequate solution because the bullies will jump you when you least expect it.
You can`t always be with a friend, and sometimes the research tells us that many times kids that are bullied, 80 plus percent of them, say they have not one adult in their school system that supports them or helps them in some way.
BEHAR: And also going with a friend. I mean, these -- well, there`s seven against one here, even if he had two friends with him, they would have just beaten up the other kids --
MCGRAW: True.
BEHAR: -- too. It`s a very difficult situation.
MCGRAW: Yes it is -- it is difficult and the only way we can do it is prevention. We`ve got to educate -- these kids should be punished, but they also need help, Joy, as well. They need counseling too.
BEHAR: Right. OK, thank you very much for joining me, Dr. Phil.
MCGRAW: You bet, Joy, good to talk -- good to talk to you.
BEHAR: See -- see you soon.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Since the video of that Alaska mother putting hot sauce in her son`s mouth and forcing him into a cold shower went viral, outrage over her actions has grown exponentially. The video first appeared on Dr. Phil.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA BEAGELY, MOTHER: Open. Close your mouth. Did you just swallow it? Go ahead. Do you lie to me? No, don`t spit.
First off, why are you getting a cold shower?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I pulled three cards.
BEAGELY: You pulled three cards today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: 36-year-old Jessica Beagely has pleaded not guilty to the charge of child abuse. The incident has brought up many questions about this technique, which apparently is known as hot saucing. Is it child abuse? And what are better alternatives?
Here to answer me -- answer those questions is "Supernanny" Jo Frost. A pleasure to see you, Jo. How are you?
JO FROST, STAR, ""SUPERNANNY"": Hi, hi, Joy, very well, thank you, and yourself?
BEHAR: I`m good. Now, I know what you`re going to answer, but I`m going to ask you this question. Do you think this mom was right to use hot sauce on the child?
FROST: No, she wasn`t.
BEHAR: Of course not.
FROST: She wasn`t right to use hot sauce. She is -- she`s a mother who`s frustrated and angry. She`s lost control. She`s not fostering growth, trust, honesty with her child and is opening up any form of emotional connection where, really, one can be in a place to encourage her child with what she very clearly was very angry with, in coming home with three cards from school.
And to actually lose it as she did clearly shows that this lady does need help. She does need efficient parental guidance in being able to use sufficient techniques.
Saucing is not a technique. Putting hot sauce in your child`s mouth and -- and you know, using other forms where you inflict pain on a child is merely a way of being able to, you know, control a situation because you`ve lost control.
BEHAR: Exactly.
FROST: And actually, it doesn`t -- it doesn`t do anything at all. Apart from damage, what we are seeing, which is you know, horrendous, the relationship between son and mother here. And you know, this lady -- this lady`s not alone, you know, that this -- this lady and her behavior towards her child has shocked millions across America. But there are thousands, as you very well know watching me on the "Supernanny" show for over six years, of parents who -- who do exactly the same.
BEHAR: Exactly, and also I think that the child is -- is hearing fear instead of love. I don`t really think that`s a very good form of child rearing at all, to make a child fear you as a parent.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But a lot of people -- a lot of people disagree with that. They think you should instill fear in a child for that child to behave. I disagree with that completely.
FROST: You know, well, I think we know better. That`s why because we`ve --we`ve clearly seen from certainly watching myself when you`ve seen me with parents who have instilled fear, that actually, it doesn`t stop the behavior. It doesn`t encourage the child to think for themselves --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
FROST: -- and recognize about making better choices. It doesn`t help you with your child walk through those scenarios and thinking about what you could better next time you`re in that situation or where the challenges are to make it better.
To fear your own parent locks down the emotional connection, the trust, the bonding that you have with your child. And quite clearly, we saw that that had already happened with this family, and that`s why there was that fear.
I mean, it -- it was just horrendous to watch. It really was --
BEHAR: It`s horrendous to watch. And you know, one of my friends pointed out that it`s not the hot sauce that the child will remember. It will be the terror and the fear, which probably will scar that child for life. So that he has to worry about --
FROST: It`s the relationship --
BEHAR: The relationship with the mother.
FROST: It`s the relationship, Joy. It`s the relationship between mother and child. It`s the relationship that`s going to continue to be damaged if this lady doesn`t get the right parental help that she needs in learning how to in a very positive way, encourage her child so that he feels he can go to his mom and have that relationship with her.
BEHAR: Yes.
FROST: Nobody is saying that you shouldn`t have boundaries. Nobody is saying that you shouldn`t have discipline. Nobody is saying that you`re not supposed to have, you know, a -- a want and expectation and bring that to potential, but this is not harboring that at all.
BEHAR: Well, you know, oh so, OK, so let`s -- let`s talk turkey. What is the best way to discipline a child so that the child understands what he did wrong but without causing psychological damage? Give us your expert advice so people out there can hear what to do when they`re frustrated with their children.
FROST: Well, certainly in this case, let`s start with a little boy who -- who`s seven years old. I think it was important in that scenario to actually talk to him about the challenges that he`s facing at school. You know, what -- what made him behave that way and work -- working through him and talking to him through that scenario allows him to be able to recognize that when he`s in that situation again, he can think quite clearly about the choices that he`ll make.
When we look at younger children, we`re certainly looking at time- outs, which I use, sitting younger children --
BEHAR: Right.
FROST: -- on a step, on a chair, refraining them from time, removing them from maybe a playdate so that they`re watching on the sides. Remove a lot of toys. For teenagers, certainly the things that are valuable for them, which we know right now is a lot of technology and -- and going out and socializing.
So looking at those forms at them, recognizing what`s valuable in their life that they love as a child, as a teenager, that they want that more than actually being confiscated from anything that they enjoy playing with.
But you`ve got to be able keep up the communication. And on the other side of things, you`ve also got to be able to teach your children the importance of acceptable behavior and how to share and everything that stands as a core for you as your family values and not compromise that.
BEHAR: Also, the child is being reprimanded and disciplined because he`s lied to the mother. Well, isn`t he going to lie more --
FROST: Yes.
BEHAR: -- for fear if he -- if he does -- if he doesn`t tell her the truth --
FROST: Correct.
BEHAR: -- the next time he`s going to -- he`s just going to keep lying for fear that she`ll turn on him again. So it`s not really accomplishing anything.
(CROSSTALK)
FROST: It`s not accomplishing anything whatsoever apart from the damage and effects that it`s having on the relationship, which is humongous.
BEHAR: Yes.
FROST: And the reality is it`s a moral issue in raising your children to do the right thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s a moral issue. Exactly. And it`s a moral issue to not abuse your children.
We`re going to have more on this when we return. Hang in there, Jo. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with "Supernanny" Jo Frost, and joining the conversation is Princella Smith, conservative commentator.
Princella, you were spanked as a child, and some say a child won`t learn unless there is pain as punishment. Do you agree with that?
PRINCELLA SMITH, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that`s an interesting way of phrasing the question, Joy. Thanks.
It`s not so much that a kid won`t learn unless there`s pain as punishment. What I learned from corporal punishment was that there are consequences to your actions. And you know, it`s relative to each child. My middle brother needed very few spankings, yet me and the youngest brother actually got quite a few spankings.
I think, well, I know what my parents tried to teach us was that there are consequences to our actions. I wasn`t spanked every time I did something wrong, but I do believe that, you know, with every child, there`s a different level of discipline.
Some kids are smarter. In this case with the hot sauce thing, I mean, it sounds like that mom got creative. And by God, you know, God bless her. I don`t think I would ever do that with my kids, but creative punishment is sometimes necessary.
BEHAR: I wonder how she would like it if someone put hot sauce down her throat. I don`t think she would like it.
SMITH: Well, no. And again, to my understanding of the story, she didn`t pour it down his throat. She put it on his tongue. A seven -year- old boy lying, and that`s very serious, Joy. When these kids -- you know, we think that stuff`s cute when they`re young, and then they become teenagers, then they are out of control.
And I think that to arrest this mother was a bit extreme.
BEHAR: Jo, how do you respond to that? And you know, the other thing I want to say is a lot of people say to me, it`s just a little spanking. It doesn`t hurt. I am against all spanking. That`s my position. All spanking, all hitting, all terrorizing, all name-calling, I don`t believe in any of that. To me, that is the antithesis of love.
But that is just me. How do you respond to what Princella says?
FROST: Princella clearly stated some things that I do agree with, and that is that parents do need to put in boundaries and have discipline, and the consequences in her household were spanking. The reality is that her parents chose to use spanking as a form of punishment. And the reason why some of those siblings had more spankings than others was certainly due to their temperaments and not wanting to cohere to the rules that were being laid down in Princella`s family`s home.
But the reality is that that was a form of discipline that your parents obviously certainly had been instilled from way back when. And it`s a thought that still parents carry now, that the only way that they can get their children to behave and abide by those rules is to be able to spank them and to hit them, and that becomes worse and worse and a child`s tolerance becomes more.
But you know, a child is supposed to look up to their parent by example and to understand the importance of thinking for themselves and honoring those expectations and values.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: I have to respond to that, Joy, if you would allow me to --
BEHAR: OK, you have 30 seconds. Sure.
SMITH: OK, look, I`m 27 years old. I`ve run for Congress. I`m a black Republican. I`m very opinionated. I`m very healthy. I love my parents. Nothing about them spanking me didn`t teach me to think for myself; as a matter of fact, both of them are very upstanding citizens who did lead by example. But the truth of the matter is, sometimes I needed a little heat on my butt, and I thank God to this day that I was prevented from a lot the mistakes that a lot of my peers (ph) did, because they enforced it (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I just want to say --
(CROSSTALK)
FROST: The reality is that it breaks relationships down.
BEHAR: Studies show -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Jo, let me just say this -- spanking is linked to aggression, anxiety and lower --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Those are the new studies.
SMITH: I respectfully disagree.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you guys, very much. And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
