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Joy Behar Page
Lindsay Lohan Charged with Theft; Addicted to Internet Porn; Animal Hoarding
Aired February 09, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Lindsay Lohan is charged with felony grand theft and faces up to three years in prison after allegedly lifting a $2,500 necklace. So what would cause the troubled starlet to take such a risk while on probation?
Then, are men suffering from sexual attention deficit disorder and is porn to blame? Sex therapist Ian Kerner thinks so and he`ll tell Joy why.
Plus, what would drive someone to own 82 dogs? Joy will talk to a pair of animal hoarders to find out what drives this bizarre addiction.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Ok. Lindsay Lohan tops the show tonight because the girl is always in trouble and I usually don`t pay much attention. But today, she was charged with felony grand theft for allegedly stealing a $2,500 necklace. That means she could do real time in a real prison.
So I have to ask, is this woman mentally unstable or is she just some privileged celebrity acting out? Let`s find out.
Here now with more are Mark Geragos, defense attorney who defended Winona Ryder in her shoplifting case -- he must like shoplifters; and Dr. Gail Saltz, clinical psychiatrist.
First, I want to go to Kareen Wynter, CNN entertainment correspondent outside the courthouse in Los Angeles. Kareen, give me a quick rundown of what happened in the courtroom today.
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course, you know, Lindsay Lohan she showed up on time for court so those proceedings were able to begin on time for once, Joy. It seems as if Lindsay`s attorney Shawn Chapman-Holly, as well as the district attorney Janet Myers, they were able to sort it all out, work things out preliminary because they were behind closed doors with the judge in the judges changers for about 20 minutes.
And then when they came out, Lohan waived her right to a preliminary hearing thereby entering a not guilty plea. Her attorney asked that the judge set another date for them to discuss the matter. The DA then said we want you to revoke her probation on her current DUI case. So the judge granted that. He set another court date; it will be February 23.
And at that time there`ll be two things they`ll be looking at here. The status of her probation, does she deserve to be sent back to jail for violating the terms of that from her 2007 DUI case. They`ll also have to deal with this current theft case, but he admonished her Joy saying, that you know what; don`t push your luck. You`re just like everyone else. You have to follow the law, but she hasn`t been doing this; so again, another chance for Lohan.
BEHAR: Well, how did she behave though? How was she acting in the courtroom?
WYNTER: Well, you know, she was sitting at the defense table when her attorney was behind closed doors, smiling at times. I`m sure she took this seriously though. We were watching on the live feed out here and you could see the intensity on her face. She didn`t have those expletives written on her fingernail this is time around.
So good for Lohan for not doing that and ticking off the judge but you can tell she`s really, really taking it seriously.
BEHAR: Yes. But she was wearing a skin tight white dress. I mean she looked gorgeous.
WYNTER: Did you see that?
BEHAR: Yes, I saw that.
WYNTER: You should have seen the pumps. She was so blinged out. She had the earrings; I couldn`t even count how many bracelets as well as --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
WYNTER: She was definitely making a fashion statement.
BEHAR: If I were Lindsay I would not be wearing jewelry to the courthouse this time. Call me crazy.
Anyway, thank you Kareen. Thanks very much for the report.
Ok. Now, I want to turn to my panel. Mark, let`s talk to you first. First of all, the girl`s wearing a skin tight white dress like and jewelry. She`s provocative this girl. Last time, she had "F U" on her nails. What do you think about that as a lawyer who would have to defend? Is that a good way to appear in court?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we like a white outfit, I don`t know if I would have wanted it that skin tight. I disagree a little about the jewelry. I mean from her standpoint, maybe she`s making the statement look, I`ve got all the jewelry I need. I don`t need to steal any. I could -- you know, I thought this was -- I was taking it on loan or I was taking it on a signature. And that it was all a misunderstanding.
She`s got a potential for a defense on that case. Her biggest problem really is getting past that probation violation. Because you have to get, it`s beyond a reasonable doubt for the new charge, but it`s not beyond reasonable doubt on the probation violation.
BEHAR: Do you think she`s going to go to prison? Is she going to get prison time?
GERAGOS: Well, she faces a maximum of three years. That is entirely unlikely. I don`t think that there`s anybody who`s going to sentence her to three years for a $2,500 grand theft, even if she`s convicted.
BEHAR: Ok. You know, this isn`t the first time Gail, that she`s been accused of stealing. And let me just go count the ways: 2008, a $12,000 mink coat from a night club; in 2009, a $400,000 necklace from a photo shoot -- I mean this was only $2,500, this latest one. This, she was going for the big time, my goodness. And in 2010, a $25,000 Rolex from a friend.
Is this a celebrity thing do you think? Or is she any different from the shoplifter who goes in to the A&P and just lifts a bag of frozen peas? Psychologically?
GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: We don`t know. Because obviously the difference is, these are big ticket items. A person who can afford big ticket items so that really the unifying theme is taking things that you don`t need to take because you could afford them any way.
BEHAR: Right. That`s different from a person who might shoplift because they maybe need the item.
SALTZ: They need food, exactly.
But there are people who do this, who repetitively take things that they don`t need. And we would call that sort of compulsive shoplifting or compulsive theft. You could even wonder about something like kleptomania which is a real disorder where people impulsively feel the need to take something that usually comes on and at that moment. But it`s something that is usually really little things. I mean really irrelevant things.
But someone who`s repetitively taking something, it can be driven by something like OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder. It can be driven by a mood problem. I`m depressed, I`m anxious; I`m taking things to give myself a little high, to feel like I`m taking a risky.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: It`s risky behavior. But the thing that`s really sad and terrible, first of all, it is often associated with addiction and it is incredibly self-destructive. So you have to feel and unfortunately, we see a lot of self-destructive in young celebrities, who -- you know, too much, too soon, around not good things and they do things that really destroy their lives.
BEHAR: Yes. Mark, Lindsay, she was never convicted for the ones I just mentioned. But can they --
GERAGOS: Right. She was never even charged.
BEHAR: She wasn`t even charged. Why not?
GERAGOS: She wasn`t charged but they can -- she was never charged for those. Apparently, if you believe what you read, nobody ever filed any official police reports and they were always resolved. But that doesn`t stop the prosecutor from trying to introduce this in this new case. They can always bring that up as uncharged conduct under the code section here in California.
BEHAR: Now, did anything that Dr. Salts was saying remind you of Winona Ryder because you defended her? And she`s saying she might have OCD, she might be a kleptomaniac. What were the other diagnosis you gave.
SALTZ: Mood problems. Addiction problems. Impulse control problems.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: I don`t know -- I try to stay away from psychoanalyzing my clients as much as trying to defend them and in this case, you just don`t know. It seems kind of odd for $2,500 necklace that she`s walking out with it and then she returns it as soon as they say no or we want it back. That doesn`t sound like a theft to me.
BEHAR: You know, it`s interesting also that the store that she allegedly stole the necklace from really went after her.
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: A lot of times these places will just say, let her have it. She`s a celebrity. Lindsay Lohan can advertise my necklace. They didn`t this time.
SALTZ: Well, you bring up another important point which is sometimes I think we in general like to go after celebrities because they seem to be powerful. They have a lot of money. They have things that we envy and so to some degree, we`re making a little bit of a career right out of attacking or waiting for the next bad behavior which makes me say, first of all, I don`t know Lindsay Lohan and I wouldn`t pretend to be giving her any diagnosis. That would be completely unfair.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: But I also want to say that some of these things, they may or may not be true and it may be that we really want to crack a lot of things around this woman who clearly -- I mean addiction has been spoken about, but other than that, we don`t know a lot. But we sort of wait for the next, you know, explosion.
BEHAR: Well, you know, let me just tell you some of the celebrity cases. Winona Ryder, we mentioned.
I mean Mark, she took a lot of expensive stuff out of Saks that time, so she was a big time shoplifter in my opinion although $400,000 necklace is up there, too. Britney Spears stole a wig and a lighter, allegedly. Jennifer Capriati, the tennis player, a $15 ring.
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: I mean why would Jennifer Capriati steal a $15 ring?
SALTZ: Again, you know when you think about things that are irrelevant, you think about impulse control problems. Like being overcome at the moment and this stuff happens for some people where I just -- I want to have that, I have this terrible feeling I must have it. And then when they take it, they feel relieved and then later they feel horrible guilt. They really feel terrible.
BEHAR: So it`s the thrill of taking it in the first place.
SALTZ: But let me also say that some people who are used to be being able to have everything -- everything they want and feel quite entitled to it because that`s the life they`ve led, that could be a completely different kind of issue. Not an impulse control problem, but a "What`s the big deal, everything should be mine anyway."
BEHAR: Yes. You know Mark, one more thing. It`s interesting that these girls that we`re talking about, Winona, for example and Lindsay, don`t they realize at this point there are surveillance cameras, there are paparazzi waiting for them in every corner. I mean, really, it`s kind of - - what is that about? Delusion, denial -- what do you think?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the -- I -- I don`t know, I -- you know, I -- I understand as a defense lawyer I come from a different perspective but a lot of times, I tend to agree with your other panelist there. A lot of times I think it`s -- celebrities get cracked on a lot harder than anybody else.
BEHAR: Well, ok. Well, he`s a defense lawyer for celebrities, Mark. If I get caught shoplifting, I know who to call.
Ok, thank you guys very much.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ok, ladies, tell your husband`s to step away from their computers especially if they`re looking at porn because it could affect your sex lives. Here to talk about men and the Internet porn that they`re watching are: sex therapist and relationship counsel Ian Kerner; clinical psychologist and life coach for "Shape" magazine, Belisa Vranich; and Davy Rothbart, a contributor for "New York" magazine who has watch some Internet porn in his time.
Greetings everybody.
BELISA VRANICH, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Hi.
BEHAR: Ok, let me start with you Ian
IAN KERNER, SEX THERAPIST: Ok.
BEHAR: First of all, why are men into this so much lately? Or are they?
KERNER: oh, I think it`s a huge, huge issue. I think a lot of it has to do with the proliferation of Internet porn, the easy access and the fact that much of it is gone free now, so guys don`t have to pay for it.
So you know, so most porn or much porn these days is free. You have a lot of men who are either unemployed, they`re freelance, they work from home, their stay at home dads, they`re on small offices, they`re in front of their computers and you know as a result of the access to porn, I mean, a lot of guys don`t even want to necessarily find themselves looking at porn, but you know, you`re on "The New York Times," the next thing you know, here`s a pop-up for something like a Victoria`s Secret catalogue. The next thing you know you`re on a porn site.
And I talked to guys, I worked with guys who -- are self pleasuring, they are masturbating you know, 50 to 500 percent more than they normally would.
BEHAR: Because of -- because of --
KERNER: Because of Internet -- completely because of Internet porn --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: And the accessibility.
KERNER: The accessibility and the fact that it`s free.
BEHAR: Ok, Davy let me talk to you because I understand --
DAVY ROTHBART, CONTRIBUTOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Sure.
BEHAR: -- that you had an interest in this particular thing. I don`t know if you still do but -- that you were a -- a victim of this particular -- maybe an addiction?
ROTHBART: Yes, I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t say I was a victim or -- or an addict, but I -- I definitely consumed my fair share of Internet porn like -- like most guys out there.
BEHAR: How much exact time were you`re spending on -- on the computer?
ROTHBART: You know -- you know, a few times a week. I mean, well, I spend a lot of time in the computer I think. I`m a writer, so I spend a lot of time -- you know, looking at NewYorkTimes.com and other sites. And yes, of course, there`s always that temptation to go there, especially if you`re working at home.
And you know, for me it was you know, a few times a week. Just you know, I think pretty, pretty average, but I did talk to a lot of guys as I was writing this piece for "New York" magazine and a lot of them did feel like it was so available, free, and -- and also the people who make porn are good at what they do, I mean, it`s effective.
The danger is that you know, you`re losing something, you know, the ability to have a real relationship.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Well, how did that affect your relationship? Tell me about you.
ROTHBART: I don`t think my relationships have been too adversely affected, but I think my interest in seeking out relationships could have been affected. Because you know, if you`re -- can get yourself off without a real woman, you know with this, this other woman -- of that`s on the Internet, in the Internet porn then you -- you are less likely maybe to really pursue other relationships.
So I -- I don`t know but that`s something I`ve dealt with but definitely a lot of the guys I interviewed for this article did feel like it was affecting their relationships in a negative way.
BEHAR: Ok, it just sounds like -- and you can weigh in on this because the women are involved.
KERNER: Sure.
BEHAR: And this sounds like -- it sounds like these guys are on this Internet porn and it`s like hey, why should I bother getting undressed, taking a shower when I can just sit by my computer and have fun?
VRANICH: Well, it`s affecting women.
BEHAR: Yes.
VRANICH: Because the men aren`t going out as much anymore and pursuing them --
ROTHBART: Exactly.
VRANICH: -- because they have their mistress, their porn online. They don`t have to get dressed; they don`t have to take a shower. But it also is affecting the relationship in that women are being treated differently.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: How?
VRANICH: They`re expected to be able to perform not only like that one porn star does, but like that mash-up of 10 or 20 or 30 different clicks that you`ve been through when you`ve been on the computer.
And when men get on to the computer --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Well, I don`t what you mean by that.
VRANICH: -- oh, when they get on to the computer, they go from one -- one scene or one movie to another. It`s very easy to get on the Internet and not be able to get off.
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: I think people as John Myer, the singer said he can wake up in the morning and before he gets out of bed he`s seen 300 vaginas -- so you know, it`s kind of the --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: My gynecologist used to say that --
VRANICH: I mean, yes, and it doesn`t affect your relationship either.
KERNER: But -- you know, I -- I -- I think it, I call it an issue. I call it SADD. SADD. Like attention deficit disorder. I call it sexual attention deficit disorder, because I think that men are so accustomed to the visual stimulation of Internet porn that they can`t focus on real sex with a real woman and it leads to a number of different kinds of problems.
BEHAR: Well, the other thing I can see is the man is in the recipient`s position in the porn.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s like do me, instead of --
(CROSS TALK)
VRANICH: Yes.
BEHAR: -- you know, I`m going to be a lover in the situation.
VRANICH: We`re going to have -- yes we`re going to have do it together, absolutely.
BEHAR: So that -- I think that that could really cut down on the foreplay, if you get my drift.
VRANICH: There is absolutely no foreplay, the porn that was supposed to have been a little bit of foreplay, maybe you can use it that way.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Right.
VRANICH: Becomes sex. So, the sex you`re having is only visual and there`s no other sense involved. There is no texture, there`s no smell, there`s no nuance, there is no wooing, there is no humor and that`s what`s missing from relationships.
BEHAR: Yes. And yet -- and yet they like it better.
VRANICH: It`s much easier.
BEHAR: I mean, Davy you -- did you like it better than actually having sex with your girlfriend or your wife?
ROTHBART: I -- I -- I didn`t -- I won`t say I liked porn better, but I think the fact that it is so easy, you know, when -- when you have worries about STDs, pregnancy and -- and also just the investment I mean, this is something not supposed to be --
BEHAR: What do you mean the investment? What do you mean by the investment?
ROTHBART: Well -- well, well a lot of the guys I`ve talked to for the article -- that I interviewed for the article, they talked about the investment you need to make to go out and try to woo a woman. And so sexual -- to fulfil their sexual needs, it`s all right there for free on the Internet.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I see.
ROTHBART: And so that was the -- you know, that was easier than making this investment at the time.
Now of course, there`s something there that`s lost. You know, I think a lot of guys, you know, are missing out on the joys; there`s trials and tribulations in real relationships.
BEHAR: Right.
ROTHBART: they really start dealing with --
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHBART: There`s challenges in everything, but at the same time, there`s a lot of joy and complex goodness that can come from it --
BEHAR: Yes, in a relationship. Well, that seems to be exactly what they`re avoiding. We`ll continue this in just a minute. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel and we`re talking about Internet porn. Do you think that some women approve of this or let`s them off the hook?
KERNER: Well, I think for a lot of women, it`s a sort of like don`t ask, don`t tell, like they`d rather their husbands masturbate to porn than actually be bothered to have real sex. I mean I think a lot of women would prefer not to always have sex and not to be pestered by their husbands. So, it`s like fine, go in the den turn on the computer and do it.
BEHAR: I can see your point. So what`s the harm in that then for the women? If they don`t really care, what`s the difference if he`s up there doing that?
VRANICH: You know what, if you use it as a second choice, it`s absolutely fine, I think. However, if it gets easier to go to porn than to go to bed and have sex with your wife, then it`s really painful for the women that come in and say, I`d like to have sex but my husband`s actually masturbating in front of the computer than having sex with me.
KERNER: And the other thing I would say to that is that a lot of guys, you know, who are in their 30s and 40s, they think that they can still pleasure themselves like they were in their 20s. And the problem is the guy is at home, he masturbates once or twice to porn, the edge is dulled. He`s not going to be interesting in pursuing sex as vigorously. He`s not going to try as hard to make it happen, to be romantic. And I think as a result, a kind of a thaw or a detachment does settle into the relationship.
BEHAR: I see that. You know, let me ask you something, Davy. Maybe it`s a hard question to ask you but how did it affect your relationships specifically? Can you tell me?
ROTHBART: You know, I think that the other times where maybe you had just been masturbating to porn on the Internet and then your girlfriend comes home and wants to have sex and you`re not as interested as you would be, you know.
BEHAR: That would happen to you?
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHBART: Yes, that`s happened to me. I think, yes, if you just masturbated, then you`re like, oh, I don`t want to do this thing right now because I just got myself off. There`s all kinds of risk like that. And I think it`s important for guys.
I`m the most liberal-minded dude. I don`t think porn is evil. But I think, just like anything, it`s worth guys thinking about their porn usage and considering unplugging.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I think it`s the constant use of the things. The addictive --
(CROSSTALK)
KERNER: The other thing that is very confusing to women is a lot of guys who have never suffered from erectile problems, as a result of too much porn are suffering from erectile problems. A lot of them can`t reach orgasm and a lot of women are sort of like, what`s going on. Why can`t my guy --
BEHAR: Yes. Can men fake it?
KERNER: Absolutely, men fake it all the time.
VRANICH: They do.
BEHAR: They do.
VRANICH: Because now, they`re under pressure to have sex with their partners and perform when they can`t. So they are faking it more than they have before.
BEHAR: But I don`t understand how a man can fake it, exactly.
VRANICH: If you`re using a condom.
ROTHBART: I can explain if you like.
BEHAR: Go ahead, tell me.
ROTHBART: From a personal experience and it`s hard to say it.
BEHAR: Wait, let me get --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead, tell me.
ROTHBART: Well, if you`re wearing condom, you know, you just do what you do normally. You know, like Ian said, sometimes for some guy, you, they have erectile dysfunction. For some guys, they go too long. Now usually guys are afraid of going too short and finish early.
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHBART: So, yes, maybe I felt like a champion because I was going for a long, long time. But it`s not that fulfilling. The woman`s like enough already and then also, it doesn`t feel like successful sex unless both parties do it.
KERNER: Guys develop what`s called an idiosyncratic masturbatory style. They are so used to a kind of pressure and friction with their hands that can`t be approximated during real sex. So as a result they have to fake it.
BEHAR: OK. That was interesting. Thanks, everyone very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Eagles quarterback Michael Vick convicted in 2007 of dog fighting, first was reinstated into the NFL and now they`re honoring him in Dallas. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DWAIN CARAWAY, DALLAS MAYOR PRO TEM: I would like to personally present to Michael Vick the key to the city of Dallas, Texas.
(CROSSTALK)
CARAWAY: You earned it (inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK, let`s talk about this with actress Nikki Blonsky, who is appearing in "Love, Loss and What I Wore" now through February 13th in New York City. Comedian Brian Dunkleman and Galina Espinoza, editorial director of "Latina" magazine. I just like to say that.
GALINA ESPINOZA, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, LATINA MAGAZINE: It`s a great word.
BEHAR: "Latina" magazine. OK, guys, now, this guy -- this is what he did when he was doing the dog fights. He electrocuted the dogs. He hung some of them and he drowned other ones. Why is he being rewarded with the key to Dallas? What is this about? It`s driving me crazy.
NIKKI BLONSKY, ACTRESS: When I first heard about it, I went nuts, because I have two pugs and they`re my world. And I mean, I just -- what he did was absolutely wrong and should -- a key? The only key he should be given is to a jail cell, Joy. That`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: Well, he didn`t go to jail.
BRIAN DUNKLEMAN, COMEDIAN: No one can deny that what he did to those dogs--
BEHAR: He did. He did go to jail.
(CROSSTALK)
BLONSKY: He served his time for the crime.
BEHAR: OK.
DUNKLEMAN: What he did was heinous, nobody can deny that. But I really believe that everybody deserves a second chance. Hello, right here! I`m available.
BEHAR: What, have you hung some dogs?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
DUNKLEMAN: No, I haven`t. Worse. Worse.
BEHAR: What have you done?
DUNKLEMAN: I left the biggest show in the history of modern television. But listen, I am a dog owner, OK? I love my little puppy more than anything else in the world, OK? Hi, Glossy (ph). But I had a conundrum this year, because I own Michael Vick--
BEHAR: You had a conundrum? Does that hurt?
(CROSSTALK)
DUNKLEMAN: I had it looked it. I own Michael Vick in my fantasy league, and he was amazing. So every time he would score a touchdown, I`d give my dog a treat. It`s like reparations.
(CROSSTALK)
ESPINOZA: I don`t know how much of an honor this is, I read that every councilman gets 25 of these keys to give out, so he`s in pretty broad company. You know, it`s not like-- he`s not that special.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So you think he should be forgiven?
ESPINOZA: I think the guy did his time. He has since gone on to speak to teenagers about how bad it is, what he did. He has become an activist for animals. He`s --
BEHAR: It`s funny, I can`t forgive it. I just can`t forgive it.
(CROSSTALK)
ESPINOZA: What can he do to make you forgive him?
BEHAR: He should disappear.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: First of all, I don`t care about football at all. Zero.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, clearly--
BEHAR: So I don`t care if he`s in the NFL and I don`t care if he`s getting the key to a city. I don`t care about any of it. So I want him out of the business. Isn`t that strong? It`s too strong.
(CROSSTALK)
BLONSKY: I`m on team Behar.
BEHAR: OK. And what about this guy who gave him the key?
BLONSKY: Ridiculous.
BEHAR: Why is he -- is his career officially over? It`s what I`d like to know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so. Maybe.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: All right. Here`s another story. Katie Couric. Now, she makes a lot of money. She makes $15 million a year. And the network, CBS, apparently when her contract expires in May, they`re talking about cutting the salary back. Should she take the cut?
DUNKLEMAN: I would do that job for 1500 and a hug.
BEHAR: I know you would. But should she?
DUNKLEMAN: OK, seriously. What`s she going to make, $10 million instead of $15 million? You know, I mean, you make adjustments.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Maybe 8 million, 7 million.
ESPINOZA: It goes to show the economy is affecting everyone. I mean, and they want her to work even longer hours and do more shows, so you know, they`re trying to get the most out--
(CROSSTALK)
ESPINOZA: You think so? You`re not worried about Katie?
BEHAR: But do you think it`s a slap in the face?
BLONSKY: I don`t think -- I think it could be taken as a slap in the face, but at the same token, you know, if she really likes where she is and she has fans where she is, then maybe she should just stay where she is--
BEHAR: And take the hit.
BLONSKY: -- and take the hit because (inaudible) keep coming back every year.
(CROSSTALK)
ESPINOZA: Well, CBS invested a lot of money in her. And they thought she was going to take the show right to number one, and she`s still in third place. I mean, Diane Sawyer on "ABC World News Tonight" now beats her. So it`s kind of -- she hasn`t really delivered, so you can`t blame CBS on that.
BEHAR: I mean, a lot of times when they say take a cut, what they`re really saying is, bye-bye. You know what I mean? It could have happened to a lot of celebrities. I won`t mention names, who are in the news right now, where they say, you know, we`re going to cut your salary, which means, you know, goodbye.
ESPINOZA: Yes. We don`t mind losing you.
BEHAR: Yeah, we don`t mind. It`s like a nice way of saying, leave.
DUNKLEMAN: Well, she`s going to have to learn how to cut back.
BEHAR: Cut back on what?
DUNKLEMAN: Instead of bathing in, you know, Cristal, switch to Vout Pecaut (ph). You know what I`m saying? She`ll be all right.
BEHAR: Maybe she should switch to acting, because look at her on a recent episode of "Glee." Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE COURIC, CBS NEWS: Do you regret the choice of attempting to fire a student out of a cannon? Other than attracting headlines and launching a national debate on the safety of athletes, was it really worth it?
JANE LYNCH, ACTRESS: I hate you, Diane Sawyer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know, like Rodney used to say, I don`t get no respect. I mean, come on. But she`s kind of good in this--
(CROSSTALK)
ESPINOZA: Yes, I think actually, it`s going to be her next career. I think we`re going to see her on a talk show.
BEHAR: Really?
ESPINOZA: Yes.
BEHAR: Not mine.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Not mine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This one is taken.
BEHAR: Get your own talk show, Katie. All right. I like Katie, she`s a good kid.
All right, now, there`s another story that`s annoying me, also. Miss San Antonio. She`s a 17-year-old girl, and they think she`s too fat. Look at her picture. She`s 5`8`` and 129 pounds. And they are -- she is suing to keep the crown because they`re saying that she`s too heavy. She`s crying there, she looks sad.
Now, what do you think, 129 pounds and 5`8``, what do you think that - - that`s ideal, isn`t it?
DUNKLEMAN: Totally obese.
BLONSKY: That`s actually ideal.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BLONSKY: Come on! What are you looking -- move away, Brian Dunkleman. Get out of here! No, I`m kidding. Obviously, I think, you know, there`s two sides to every story. You know, as acting -- when we sign up for roles, and beauty pageants, we know what we`re getting into. We have to stay a certain size, if the producers want it that way. We have to lose weight, we have to gain weight. I had to gain weight for "Hairspray."
BEHAR: Lucky you.
(LAUGHTER)
BLONSKY: Cheesecake, oh come on. But you know, you just have to deal with it, but--
BEHAR: So you`re saying is, like, the job is to be thin. So you have to--
BLONSKY: But she`s 17. And that`s what`s driving me nuts about this. She`s a teenager.
DUNKLEMAN: She signed a contract. There are certain jobs and expectations. I mean, you can`t keep your job waitressing at Hooters if you blow up to 170 pounds. I mean, let`s face it, this is a subset of the entertainment industry. And there`s a double standard. I mean, in the entertainment industry, you can be hugely successful if you`re a drug addict, if you`re a bigot, if you are a thief, but you can`t be overweight. I mean, that`s just a double standard.
BEHAR: No, I know, that`s true. I just judged the Miss America pageant, you know. They were all -- they were different, blondes, brunettes, African-Americans. I believe there was an Asian girl in there, a couple of those. But they`re all the same size. They all fit into the same size--
ESPINOZA: There is no diversity when it comes to body type.
BEHAR: That`s right.
ESPINOZA: And I think what`s fascinating about this case is how seriously they take that weight requirement. I think one of the pageant organizers was quoted as saying, you have to treat this like you`re an elite athlete, you`re in training for a competition. And to Nikki`s point, it`s a 17-year-old high school girl.
BLONSKY: She`s 17.
ESPINOZA: She`s not an elite athlete. She is not competing, you know, to be the strongest or the fastest.
BLONSKY: She`s wearing a rhinestone crown. I mean, come on, that --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know.
BLONSKY: It`s like just give her the crown, let her have it, let her be happy. And you know, then if she makes it into Miss USA or the bigger pageants, then, you know, they can talk to her about her weight, when she`s of legal age. But right now, let her eat a cheeseburger.
BEHAR: The ideal weight for 5`8`` girl is 122 to 164 pounds.
BLONSKY: That`s quite a range.
BEHAR: That`s a big range.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNKLEMAN: You know I was joking, right?
BLONSKY: We`re not going to take you out back after the show. Don`t worry.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What did you say to me?
BLONSKY: I said, thank God, I`m 4`10.
BEHAR: What`s your range?
BLONSKY: Oh, God, I don`t know, but I`m way out of it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yeah, but you`re working. See, that`s the beauty of Nikki Blonsky. Nikki Blonsky, Nikki Blonsky.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: A Barbra Streisand thing there?
BLONSKY: Yes, I believe it was Nikki Orenstein (ph). No, it`s the same thing.
DUNKLEMAN: Close enough.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. Nikki Blonsky, Nikki Blonsky, don`t lose a pound.
BLONSKY: I won`t.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK.
BLONSKY: Just for you, Joy.
BEHAR: All right, now let`s get back to the "American Idol" thing you were talking -- you alluded to before.
DUNKLEMAN: Sure.
BEHAR: Now, first of all, the "American Idol" show is a hit again. J. Lo is kicking butt.
DUNKLEMAN: It`s still on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You haven`t heard?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I am going to get to the story -- the tragic story of Brian Dunkleman in a second.
DUNKLEMAN: Fantastic. I can`t wait.
BEHAR: I just want to tell you, though, that Steven Tyler`s record sales are up.
DUNKLEMAN: Steven Tyler`s on "American Idol?"
(LAUGHTER)
DUNKLEMAN: How did this happen?
(CROSSTALK)
ESPINOZA: And Simon is gone.
DUNKLEMAN: I heard.
BEHAR: And Steven Tyler, who is 61, is coming on to every 18-year-old girl. It`s quite obnoxious. But that`s another story. Who am I to judge? But you co-hosted "Idol" in the beginning, but you quit after season one. Why?
DUNKLEMAN: I did.
BEHAR: What were you thinking, Brian?
DUNKLEMAN: Joy, I have what many refer to as poor judgment.
BEHAR: I`ll say, that`s an understatement.
DUNKLEMAN: Listen, I`d like to say I was just young and stupid, but the truth is, I really wasn`t that young. And listen, I was a comedian and an actor. That`s what I wanted to do with my life, is be an actor, and that`s going great.
But the other thing was, I just didn`t -- I didn`t like watching those kids being brought to tears like that. I didn`t understand why they had to do it. I didn`t get it. Now, that being said, with the benefit of hindsight, if I had known then what I know now, I would just walk around smacking kids at random. OK? For no reason. Just lay it on, here`s $100, use it to dry your tears.
BEHAR: I mean, you know, we were referring to you as the Pete Best of "American Idol." Do you know who Pete Best is?
DUNKLEMAN: You know what? They call Pete Best -- in England, they call him the Brian Dunkleman of the Beatles.
BEHAR: Do you know who Pete Best is?
DUNKLEMAN: I met Pete Best.
BEHAR: Pete Best was a drummer who should -- who started out with the Beatles, and then they threw him out. I mean, can you imagine? He must be on a ledge.
DUNKLEMAN: I met him.
(CROSSTALK)
DUNKLEMAN: We did the Howard Stern show together.
BEHAR: Oh, really, so it`s the two of you. I see, that`s interesting.
DUNKLEMAN: We`re going on tour.
BEHAR: It`s a hook, you know what I mean?
DUNKLEMAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: It`s a hook.
DUNKLEMAN: OK. So now let`s talk about this other guy, this baseball coach in Wakeforest, Indiana, I believe he was. He donated a kidney to one of his players. I thought that was above and beyond the call of duty. What do you think? Would you do it?
BLONSKY: I would. I would do it, to be completely and truthfully honest, I would. You know, if somebody need it to survive --
BEHAR: Really?
BLONSKY: Yes.
BEHAR: Anybody need a kidney? Nikki is ready to give here.
(LAUGHTER)
BLONSKY: I grew up with the notion of, you know, if you have what other people need and you can give it to them, you know -- I`ll still have one left.
(CROSSTALK)
BLONSKY: You need it, just call me.
BEHAR: That`s so sweet. See, I`m from the school of if you need these earrings, you can have them. Kidneys, never mind. OK, thank you, guys. And you can see Brian Dunkleman on the Laugh Out Loud Comedy Festival special on Showtime Thursday night. (inaudible). Back in a minute.
DUNKLEMAN: Skyballleague.com (ph).
BEHAR: There you go. What`s that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m getting (inaudible) and puppy dog kisses all the time. And I`ll tell you what, you can`t put a price on that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look like your papa, yes, you do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My dogs are my life. It`s a little bit better holding a new puppy than having my own kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Americans love their pets, but even if you really love them, can you have too many of them? And at what point does a person go from being a pet owner to a pet hoarder?
With me now are some of the people featured in Animal Planet`s "Confessions: Animal Hoarding." Dawn, who had over 100 pets, including dogs, horses, geese and goats. Carolyn, who had over 80 dogs. And with them is Karen Cassiday, a clinical psychologist. She`s going to figure this whole thing out for us. And the owner of the Anxiety and Agoraphobia Treatment Center in Chicago. Welcome, ladies, to the show.
Carolyn, you had 85 dogs?
CAROLYN, ANIMAL HOARDER: Yes.
BEHAR: Why? Why?
CAROLYN: Well, years ago, I was volunteering at the shelter there in our town, and it got to the point where every day I would go in to clean, and every day there would be dogs gone. Day after day after day.
BEHAR: They were killing them?
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: They were, yes.
CAROLYN: And so, I got to the point where I just couldn`t take it. There would be people bringing animals in, and particularly this one, her name was Sadie. And I asked the gentleman, I said, what do you want to do with her? And he said he didn`t care what we did with her. She won`t make him any more money so he didn`t care if we put her down or not.
BEHAR: Oh, nice guy.
CAROLYN: So I took her home.
BEHAR: Took Sadie home.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: OK.
CAROLYN: And it was just story after story like that.
BEHAR: So, you did it out of the goodness of your heart.
CAROLYN: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: And let me just ask Carolyn for a minute, Carolyn is here -- I`m talking to the other lady, Dawn. You had over 100 pets, Dawn. You were breeding dogs, horses, goats, geese. Were they all in the same house?
DAWN, ANIMAL HOARDER: No, they were out in the barn, the livestock. I did start the geese and the ducks, the poultry and so forth, in the house. So -- and there I tried to -- I figured I was going to be self- sufficient with the geese and chickens and going to use them to eat the eggs or the chickens, and it just never happened. I couldn`t bring myself to do it.
BEHAR: But I mean --
DAWN: But no--
BEHAR: You raised these animals, the geese, you raised them from eggs and you bottle-fed them.
DAWN: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, that is a real commitment, that is a real commitment to a pet. And then why --
DAWN: I would--
BEHAR: Go ahead.
DAWN: I would bottle-fed the puppies and so forth, and the baby, you know, the baby goats and so forth, so. It is -- it`s a 24-hour commitment, 24 hours a day.
BEHAR: Did you originally -- did you originally have these animals because you thought they would be dinner?
DAWN: I originally started out and what happened is I was in an awful abusive situation. I ended up having four operations and I just had to leave the city that I was living in, and I had to make a living. And I figured I`m going to breed dogs. This is going to be an easy living, you know. I`ll put on the table for my family, my daughter. And I put -- invested a lot of money into it, my whole inheritance, thousands went into it. And I started breeding them. And I just felt guilty. They were in the kennel, and I felt guilty every time I would go out there and clean them and check the puppies, and eventually it started out that I would just start bringing them into the house with me. You know, I couldn`t leave them sleeping in the kennel. And it just added up and added up, and then I was known as the dog lady, and people would bring me their strays or I`d wake up in the morning and there would be a dog on my doorstep.
BEHAR: It`s too much. It`s too much.
DAWN: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: You ladies are too good. You did -- I think you did this out of the goodness of your heart, and then it became uncontrollable. So at what point, Carolyn, did you say enough with the pooper scooping?
CAROLYN: Well, you know, I never got tired of doing that. I never got tired of --
BEHAR: Really? I get tired with two dogs.
CAROLYN: -- like there would puppies I would take an eye dropper and feed, and put them in the sock and pin that sock to me and take it to bed with me.
BEHAR: Oh, my God.
KAREN CASSIDAY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Carolyn is illustrating--
BEHAR: Let`s hear from the shrink.
CASSIDAY: A lot of animal hoarders view their animals the way most people view an infant. And they feel incredibly powerful and loving and giving, and they view their sacrifice to animals in their health, in their home as a sign of their commitment and love. And they get lost in that.
BEHAR: I can see that. But there is a point of no return. I mean, you really love your animals. I mean, you were talking about your son before, who do you love more, your son or your dogs?
CAROLYN: You know, I did say that and I meant it. Because two kids are over 40, two`s (ph) going to 40, they are all -- have their careers, they`re all financial stable, and I can give one of my kids that, but then dogs needed me. They needed me.
BEHAR: Those dogs needed you.
CAROLYN: They needed me.
BEHAR: And the kids don`t anymore, is that the point?
CAROLYN: No. And my son would say, yes, mom, we need you, and I said, not as bad as they do.
BEHAR: OK. All right, we`re going to take a minute here, and then we`ll come back and we`ll find out how they kicked the habit. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking about animal hoarding with my guests. You know, during the break, Carolyn, you said that you spent $200,000 in the past 13 years on food and vet bills for these dogs of yours.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: Which you went from 85 dogs to nine of them.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: Where are the other 76 now?
CAROLYN: They have been adopted out.
BEHAR: You got them to be adopted?
CAROLYN: Well, we called in the Humane Society of St. Louis and they adopted them.
BEHAR: How did you give them up? What made you give them up?
CAROLYN: Well, for years the kids had been after us because of the money, our health, and my retirement and things--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Kids are like, ma, I need dental work.
CAROLYN: Yes, no--
(CROSSTALK)
CAROLYN: And so last winter, when it was really bad, I`m going -- it just hit me. It just --
BEHAR: You couldn`t take it anymore.
CAROLYN: I said this is no life for an animal, no life for an animal being out there, I don`t care how much straw we put in their houses and how good we fed them. This was no life for an animal.
BEHAR: Or for you. What about you?
CAROLYN: Well, I wasn`t --
BEHAR: You don`t see it that way?
CAROLYN: No, no.
BEHAR: It is all about them.
CAROLYN: You have to have a big heart, a deep soul, and lots of spirit to do what we`ve done.
BEHAR: I think you`re right. But it crosses over into something a little kooky, Doctor.
CASSIDAY: Yes. And I think you`re giving us a good example of the problem, which is you`re not talking about taking care of yourself. The thing we see with all these hoarders is it`s about taking care of animals and neglecting themselves, neglecting their family and friends.
BEHAR: There`s a difference between hoarding and collecting. You know? It seems to me that collectors have a lot of money. Is that true? I mean, I know people, rich people, who have collections of -- they have first edition books, you know, (inaudible) jewelry, this I have a lot of this -- not that I`m so rich-rich, but I can afford it. But hoarding seems to be people who just have a good heart and don`t have the money. Is that true?
CAROLYN: That`s true. There would be times when we would have to ask the kids for money to help feed the dogs, because the dogs come No. 1. They eat before we did.
BEHAR: OK, so how do they get over it?
CASSIDAY: Well, first they have to recognize that they`re a hoarder. And one thing that is very hard for hoarders is they see themselves as rescuers and animal saviors. And then we need to help them see a way to get out of the hoarding, that they are people who tend to be disorganized and have poor attention spans, and so we have to help them break down the steps. And then we also have to help them connect with people so they actually have a satisfying emotional and social life, so it is not just dogs, cats.
BEHAR: But they`re the opposite of people who only think about themselves.
CAROLYN: Right.
BEHAR: You`re the opposite of that.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: And somewhere in between is a person who loves animals, has a couple of pets, and also goes and takes care of themselves and takes care of the children and everything else. So you have to find that, I guess, in between. Right?
CAROLYN: Right.
BEHAR: Dawn, how did you kick it?
DAWN: Well, I`m still struggling with it, to be honest with you. In fact, I had a dog dropped off at my house last week. And now I have the tools, thank God for Animal Planet. I have the tools, I know who to contact. I`m not, you know, taking -- I`m not putting my own money into it.
BEHAR: Yes. All right.
DAWN: So you know--
BEHAR: Thanks so much, ladies. We have to go. That was so interesting, I think. And good luck to you. I hope you don`t have a relapse.
CAROLYN: Thank you.
BEHAR: All right, "Confessions: Animal Hoarding" airs Friday nights on Animal Planet. Tomorrow, I will be in Chicago taping an Oprah interview, so Jerry Springer will guest-host for me. Be sure to tune in for that. Good night, everybody.
END
