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Joy Behar Page
Sleeping with the Tiger; Silent Bob Speaks
Aired February 11, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, a teenage girl who sleeps with her pet tiger. Joy will find out if it`s dangerous, inhumane or just plain crazy.
Then HLN`s tough talking Nancy Grace opens up about her cancer scare.
Plus, controversial filmmaker Kevin Smith speaks his mind.
That and more, starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: We`re starting tonight with video you just have to see to believe. Every night 17-year-old Felicia Frisco sleeps with her pet, a tiger. Having a 100-pound tiger as a pet, much less a roommate doesn`t sound like a good idea. But what do I know?
Here to talk more about this story is Dr. Bagavan Antle, director of the Myrtle Beach Safari and founder of the Institute of Greatly Endangered and Rare Species who thinks it`s a good idea. Welcome to the show, Doctor.
DR. BAGAVAN ANTLE, DIRECTOR, MYRTLE BEACH SAFARI: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, this girl comes from a family of animal handlers. You know the family, I take it. Why is the animal sleeping in the girl`s bed, again? Tell me why.
ANTLE: You know, she`s working with that animal as a professional animal trainer in a life-long effort of her and her multigenerational animal trainer family to get a bond with that animal. So that she and the animal have a relationship so that as it matures she`s able to have a relationship with it when it goes into the group of big tigers that live right outside the door. There`s another eight or nine outside.
BEHAR: But isn`t that -- isn`t it a little dangerous to do that? The tiger has claws, right? And it has big teeth. Even though it`s a baby still, it`s six months, I would think it`s dangerous to sleep with a wild animal. No?
ANTLE: Certainly there is a degree of danger. You know, she is professional doing something that has a set of risks to it just like going out and snowboarding competitively does, right? You can get killed on the slopes. She`s doing something that has a degree of risk to it and she`s working with that animal.
At that age, the tiger has teeth smaller than a dog. The claws are very easy to trim when they`re young. So it doesn`t have the lethality of a Rottweiler until it gets about a year old. At that time she takes it out and has it live outside, no longer has it making such intimate contact with her on a basis where she`s asleep.
You know, it`s something that as the tiger matures, you change the rules and you adapt to its personality and its abilities.
BEHAR: Ok. So the tiger is still young, so it`s ok now, but like in six months the tiger will be eating meat? Should she kick the tiger out of her bed?
ANTLE: Yes. By the time the tiger`s a year old she does plan on the tiger getting out of the bed and going out. The tiger does eat meat now. It eats a blend of meat and it still drinks a bottle. It is a carnivore eating thing.
It doesn`t look at a person as a meal as part of its exchange with the person. It doesn`t say, I eat food from you and I might eat you. They don`t recognize that you`re the same thing as a chunk of beef that you`re handing them.
BEHAR: I know. But you know, I remember Siegfried and Roy. I mean Roy Horn, they raised those tigers from when they were little babies, too, and yet the tiger attacked Roy. Couldn`t that happen to the girl later on?
ANTLE: It could happen. I mean, I know Roy very well. I spent time with him over many decades, you know? Roy wasn`t attacked by the tiger per se and torn up, right? The wounds that Roy got were no more than pencil holes. It was the collapse of some of his arteries and him having a stroke that caused most of what went wrong with Roy Horn, not a tiger bite.
But he`d been bitten during his life. He`d been bitten during his other performances. That activity certainly can happen.
It is very rare for it to happen for professional animal trainers that work like we do in a group. Right now, with us, there`s eight people out here all watching. They have decades of experience working with the animals so that they can have that interactive quality.
The tigers when they`re little have small teeth. You can kind of do it by yourself. As they mature and get the much bigger teeth, you have to be much more careful about how you interact with them, what you do and you keep a team of people. They`re very unlikely to try to attack or act up with people next to you.
Roy is all by himself out on stage. He did things very different than what myself and my peers do where we work with them in what we call a team of backup.
BEHAR: Right. I see in the pictures that we`re showing that the young girl is kissing the tiger. I mean, the halitosis, alone, could kill her. You know?
ANTLE: It`s like kissing -- it`s like kissing your dog. I mean, I have, you know, friends and family that kiss different animals and, you know, some people like to kiss their dog. Some people let that Chihuahua give them a lick on the cheek. It`s not my forte. But I`d say, for that tiger to give her a kiss isn`t much different.
BEHAR: I see. What about the tiger, himself? Do you think that -- is it a boy tiger or girl tiger?
ANTLE: It`s a little boy tiger. It will be big like this guy.
BEHAR: Look at that.
ANTLE: You`re a good boy.
This is a big 500-pound male. This is what he`ll turn into. A guy like this who still enjoys his bottle, still likes spending time with people. Has grown an enormous set of teeth as he`s matured but still has a great personality because of how he was raised and because a group of us have dedicated our time and energies into having him learn how to interact with us, but as a professional, not as my pet.
BEHAR: Yes. He`s beautiful. Look at that baby. That`s a gorgeous animal.
Oh my goodness. You`re so lucky, I think, to be in the position to do that. I think. It`s a beautiful animal. I`m getting all excited about it here.
ANTLE: Great privilege.
BEHAR: Yes, it is.
Is the -- is it fair to the animal, though? I mean, you`re taking them out of their natural habitat which obviously would be in Africa someplace or India. You know, they are being kept in captivity. Is that fair to the animal, do you think?
ANTLE: The thing about tigers is, tigers are a highly endangered species. They`re very rare in the wild. National Geographic considers the tiger to potentially be extinct in just the next couple of decades. They`re an animal that lives in Southeast Asia and they have a lot of trouble there. They`re being poached at an alarming rate.
BEHAR: That`s true.
ANTLE: India which is the capital of tigers may only have a thousand tigers left in the entire country at this point. So, it`s an animal that has disappeared. There`s nowhere for a tiger to live in the wild anymore except in small preserves.
So the captive life like this tiger (INAUDIBLE) has is what he`ll always have. He has huge pasture areas that he`s able to go out and stay in. But when he`s out with us he gets to take a walk.
The greatest thing for a tiger is to have new sight, sounds and smells, new experiences. That gives the tiger the greatest gift. That`s his winning of the lottery, a chance to do something else.
BEHAR: Thank you very much. I really -- that is one cute pussycat. Let me tell you something. Thank you so much, Doctor, for joining me. Ok.
Now I`d like to bring in actress Tippi Hedren. Now Tippi is the president of the Roar Foundation. Hello, Tippi, how are you?
TIPPI HEDREN, PRESIDENT, ROAR FOUNDATION: I`m well, joy. Thank you for doing this.
BEHAR: It`s great to see you.
HEDREN: This is a very important issue. Thank you.
BEHAR: We`re all big fans of yours, Tippi.
Now, you work with lions and tigers through your foundation, right?
HEDREN: We rescue big cats; the lion, the tiger, the leopard, mountain lion, serval, all of the different predators who have been born in captivity, to be sold as a pet or for financial gain or for our amusement.
And, you know, I`ve been doing this since 1971 when we wanted to do a film about the animals in the wild because of the -- problems they have out there, just due to encroaching civilization, sport, hunting and poaching.
BEHAR: What do you think about this girl who`s 17 years old sleeping with this tiger for the moment? She`s not going to be sleeping with him when he`s bigger, but now.
HEDREN: That would be extremely dangerous, but you know, the fact that she`s raising this little tiger, I`ve done it myself, and -- actually the point of this whole thing is that these animals should not be in captivity in the first place. These are predators. Top of the food chain --
BEHAR: The doctor I spoke to said they`re in more danger in the wild these days because of poaching.
HEDREN: Well, they are, but is it -- is this good for the animal? I mean when you take these animals, who their major point in being born is the reason why you never see old animals. You never see sick animals, maimed animals in the wild. It is because of these predators. They are apex predator which means top of the food chain. This is their job.
Now, when you put that into consideration, and they have instincts that can never be removed, ever. This is a very dangerous animal.
When we were doing our film, all of us were hurt. I was hurt. My daughter, Melanie, was hurt. My then-husband, my two stepsons --
BEHAR: My goodness.
HEDREN: Yon (INAUDIBLE), our DP. I mean, I do speak from where it all happened and I`m -- I really know what I`m talking about.
BEHAR: Ok. I believe you.
HEDREN: The fact that -- these --
BEHAR: I think you do know what you`re talking about because you have so much experience with it. And I really want to thank you for sharing your point of view here. And say hi to Melanie for us.
HEDREN: I will do that.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Filmmaker Kevin Smith was on my show earlier this week, and he had so much to say we bumped Hosni Mubarak for him.
I`m happy to welcome back Kevin Smith.
So Kevin.
KEVIN SMITH, WRITER, DIRECTOR, "RED STATE": Yes.
BEHAR: Ok.
SMITH: You want to talk to me about the politics of the region? I can do that.
BEHAR: No, no, no.
SMITH: No.
BEHAR: I want to talk to you because people know that you`re here.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: And we put out the word on Facebook for questions for you.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: So we want to go over some Facebook questions, because people -- they have questions, too.
SMITH: Absolutely.
BEHAR: All right, number one, is it true you only go to mass to pray for your movies?
SMITH: No, I used to go to church all the time and then I stopped going on a Sunday basis. I used to have this old joke -- but I used to be a practicing Catholic, but then I got it right and then I stopped going.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: But I would go before every movie. The start of every movie, and the -- before the opening of every movie. Just as a kind of like -- well, it couldn`t hurt.
BEHAR: It couldn`t hurt.
SMITH: But it never helped.
BEHAR: Ok.
SMITH: I`m not telling you don`t believe in God, I`m just saying, it never helped, really.
BEHAR: Well, because God is busy, he`s not thinking about you and your damn movies.
SMITH: God is not a fan of my stuff at all.
BEHAR: He`s got tsunamis to deal with, he`s got floods.
SMITH: Yes, God is like, look I like Judd Apatow, not Kevin Smith.
BEHAR: All right, now did you really photograph your wife for "Playboy?".
SMITH: I did.
BEHAR: And why?
SMITH: They asked me for a 50th anniversary issue they were doing. They said they did an old feature 25 years into the magazine where they asked a bunch of directors to shoot what they felt was the most erotic image they could come up with.
BEHAR: I wish you could show us that picture.
SMITH: It`s beautiful. It`s her -- the image I came up was --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Let`s get it.
SMITH: It -- it`s nice, she is dressed like Lois Lane, but undressed like Lois Lane.
BEHAR: Oh.
SMITH: And there`s a -- Superman is behind her holding her, it`s kind of like a rooftop encounter. You see Superman and Lois Lane. And I was telling the people at "Playboy" and there were like, what do you want to do. And I said, ok, I want to do this photo shoot with my wife, because whenever I think about sex, I think about my wife. She`s erotic to me.
And they`re like go, ok can we get a picture of her? And I was like, yes, they wanted to make sure if she is pretty and stuff. Like, you know, they wanted to see her without her clothes on. But then they were like what`s the picture and I said she`s going to be Lois Lane and there`s going to superman stand behind her holding her and she`s in various states of undress. And there was dead silence on the phone.
And then they`re like, you don`t want to play superman do you? And I was like, no, not me. I`ll just take the picture, you know.
So we got a male model that would come in, gay as the day is long sitting there and holding my wife while she`s naked.
BEHAR: So you didn`t feel jealous?
SMITH: I -- I was hot, I was like there was a gay dude holding my wife. That smells like a three-way. But we didn`t do it.
BEHAR: Chicken.
SMITH: Yes. I -- I have no guts.
BEHAR: Ok. Are you feuding with Howard -- Howard Stern?
SMITH: No, not at all. I was on -- last time I was on --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Why? What`s that about? What`s that question about?
SMITH: Somebody -- I haven`t been on Stern in a few years. I go on Opie and Anthony now, I go on every radio station on the planet, but I haven`t been on Stern in a couple years. And that`s only because the last time I was on, I was promoting an "Evening with Kevin Smith", a DVD I did, that was like me speaking and stuff like that. And I was --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Really?
SMITH: Yes, yes. Can you believe it? That was me talking and what not. And I had been on Stern many times. He`d call me -- he would call me up like one week every morning to ask me a comical question. I was always there. I grew up listening to that show and what not.
That day when he had me on, it was -- he had this kind of really reductive like Kevin Smith is always calling in trying to be on the show. That broke my heart. I was like, I`ve never once called the show --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: -- asking me to be on it, with the exception of this time to promote this DVD.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: And at that point, I was just like, I -- you feel weird. Like you`re going over to some dude`s house who is the popular kid and then when you`re there with him alone in the room he`s nice to you, but then when other people, look at the fat guy. The fat guy is a loser, everybody, right?
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: So he`s --
SMITH: I`d like to go to Opie and Anthony and you can literally sit there and those guys are like -- take the ball. Tell your stories like we talk all the time, you talk, tell your stories.
BEHAR: I see.
SMITH: So for me, I would much rather go to a place where they share the ball and they`re not going to make you feel bad. Like just to get on the show, you have to run a gauntlet of insults. So it`s like, I`m too old for that.
BEHAR: I see.
SMITH: You know and there are people who are willing to talk to me who don`t want insult me either.
BEHAR: I see.
SMITH: So I`m not mad at him -- but I`m just like at this point, but I try to get on this week because I was in town, and a lot of people on Twitter, were like go on Stern, go on Stern. And it had been like six, seven years. So I was like you know what, I`m here in town, I`ve got a free morning on Wednesday, I`m -- I`ll try and I tweeted Gary and Howard about being on the show but they were like we`re booked solid.
So everyone said, just because I did (INAUDIBLE), but whatever, I -- I don`t play those politics games.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Now, do you have a fat man crush on John Goodman?
SMITH: Yes, I have a fat man and stand man crush. John Goodman is the person that we all want to be when we grow up. I`ve worked with many actors and I`ve been an actor myself or a quasi-actor from time to time. I`m on the set, you`ve been on the set you know this.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: There is a stand-in, a position called the stand-in. And actor has somebody who basically sits and like, let`s say you were lighting this shot for a scene and they`re putting the camera on me and all of the lights. While you`re organizing that, getting that ready, I as the actor, I`m not sitting here --
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: -- somebody is standing in for me, I`m over there texting my agent and friends. A very important work to the side. The person that stands there, that`s called the stand-in.
BEHAR: Right.
SMITH: Every actor has one, it`s not scandalous. Its de rigueur.
BEHAR: Ok.
SMITH: Seventeen years I`ve been doing this, John Goodman was the first actor and only actor I ever met, who I was like, dude, you`ve got 15 minutes to light this stuff, you can go to your trailer. And he`s like, it`s cool I`ll just stay here and he stood in for himself, like that. What a hero that is. That`s the dude who is just like --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Oh my God. Unbelievable.
SMITH: -- A, he`s great at his job --
BEHAR: Right up there with Mother Teresa.
SMITH: Yes, he is. What did she ever do? John Goodman stood in for himself, amazing.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, he stood in for himself, stop the presses.
SMITH: What a good guy. In a -- in a world of actors, that`s impressive. All you have to do is not be selfish and be -- do something that`s kind of generous.
BEHAR: You know what`s more fascinating now about you and your wife - -
SMITH: Go ahead.
BEHAR: -- because you mentioned her.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: How long have you been married?
SMITH: Twelve years.
BEHAR: Ok, does she -- she -- she`s a listener not a talker, right?
SMITH: Good question. No, she is a talker and at home I have to zip.
BEHAR: Really.
SMITH: That`s why I think I get out into the real world and I`m like blah, blah, blah because at home I`m like, yes, dear.
BEHAR: Oh really, so you`re hen pecked?
SMITH: No, I wouldn`t say hen pecked.
BEHAR: Come on.
SMITH: No, she just talks. She`s got a lot of opinions and I like to hear them all.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: And she goes off on stuff that like, I`m -- it makes me a better person. Stuff like I -- I don`t have any feminist views because I`m a guy.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: You can have --
SMITH: Being married for 12 years, you get a lot of feminist views and it evens you up. She made me a better person.
BEHAR: The definition of a feminist doesn`t mean you have to be a woman.
SMITH: No it means you have to hate men. And my wife does.
BEHAR: No, it does not.
SMITH: My wife hates men and the only reason she married me is because I`m not hung like a man -- I`m hung like a woman.
BEHAR: You`re hung like a man.
SMITH: No I`m hung like a woman. That`s why she married me. She hates men. Yes.
BEHAR: Oh I see. I see. You know, early in the week we were talking about men who are addicted to porn on the Internet.
(CROSS TALK)
SMITH: I`m not one of those guys.
BEHAR: Is that -- is that something you might be interested in?
SMITH: No. No, but I`m weighing in on my old lady. I`ve got a lot of pictures that I`ve taken of her naked and if I`m going to be by myself in a room with a computer --
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: -- it`s going to be her pictures and me.
BEHAR: After 12 years.
SMITH: Yes, I`m a big fan of her, man. And I`ve got it figured out.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Wow, do you have children?
SMITH: Yes, I`ve got one kid, she`s 11. She`s close to 12. Don`t do the math.
What I figured out is you basically have to -- a lot of people marry for love, and I definitely love my wife. But the thing that set her apart from everybody else is I love having sex with her, more than anybody else. And I was like, I could keep having sex with her until the day I die.
BEHAR: That is so beautiful.
SMITH: It`s the key. If you can find somebody that you want to have sex with you`ll never look for it elsewhere.
BEHAR: The question is, does she want to have sex with you?
SMITH: Not at all, Joy. But that`s why we have things like the flashlight and stuff like that.
BEHAR: We`ll be back with more with Kevin. He`ll just continue talking, anyway.
SMITH: Yes. I`ll keep talking. You go to break.
So anyway, this priest --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the very shy director, Kevin Smith.
SMITH: Let me finish. And my mother -- no.
BEHAR: You`re also a movie actor.
SMITH: Sometimes.
BEHAR: You`re not just a director.
SMITH: But acting, let`s use that term very loose. I`ve been in some movies, let`s leave it at that. I played in my movies as Silent Bob, so I didn`t really have to talk.
BEHAR: Really? That must have been torture for you.
SMITH: Wasn`t it? For years, I said nothing. That`s why now --
BEHAR: The movie "Red State" which is your new film --
SMITH: Yes. That`s the latest --
BEHAR: tell me about that. You say it`s a horror movie.
SMITH: I keep calling it a horror movie, everyone else says it`s a satire. It`s an action thriller. To me it`s a horror movie because it`s about horrific topics. You know the Phelps family, America`s favorite family. God hates everything.
BEHAR: Yes. Tell everybody who they are.
SMITH: Westboro Baptist Church they kind of go out to protest soldiers` funerals when they come home.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: Back in the day, long before the soldier thing, which is heartbreaking to all of us, they went after Matthew Shepherd. The poor kid who was killed in Wyoming, hung on a fence because he was gay. They wanted to erect a statue that says Matthew Shepherd entered hell in this spot -- such and such.
These are the people that like, you`ve lost a loved one, they show up at your funeral and make it worse by holding up signs telling that these people going to hell.
You don`t need that in your life. And just recently they were going after the little 9-year-old girl who got shot in Arizona during that recent --
BEHAR: Right.
SMITH: These cats have been around with us for a while now. We`re all kind of -- we have seen the signs, we know what they look like, general idea. I felt like, let`s kind of take that, extremely religious fundamentalist family, and create a horror convention with it. Like it`s kind of the same way people looked at Ed Gein in Wisconsin and turned that into Norman Bates in psycho.
I was like, let`s start with this family. Just imagine you had a religious family, not the Phelps but a family like them, who hold up the signs. They`re all about the Word of God. They can`t penetrate in this immoral society, where would they go next?
And I extrapolated, ok, maybe they take the bible and start killing in the name of God, using it as justification. So for me I was like let`s do this $4 million horror movie kind of taking off on the idea of the Westboro Baptist Church as if it was --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But why do you call it "Red State"? I mean this is just one particular group.
SMITH: Because there`s blood in the movie. It`s a horror movie.
BEHAR: Oh, I see but they --
SMITH: I`m not that clever. I know it sounds like political, but really -- I was literally like, do I call it "Blood State" or "Red State"? And I said "Red State".
BEHAR: You`re pretending -- you`re saying now that you didn`t plan that.
SMITH: I`m not political, Joy. I`m a fat, masturbating stoner. I have no politics. None whatsoever.
BEHAR: Stop it, you`re turning me on.
SMITH: I`m your dream. I`m always around the house, I`m willing to please. I cook. I`m very oral. We`ll talk.
BEHAR: Ok, now, keep your eyes peeled for "Red State" coming to theatres in October.
SMITH: It comes on March 5th. They can go see it across the country. We`re doing a little tour. Let me do that much.
BEHAR: Sure.
SMITH: March 5th, we start this tour. I`m going to take the movie out before it comes out in October, state to state. We show the movie and do Q & A after. We start March 5th at Radio City Music Hall and then we end April 9th at the Wiltshire in Los Angeles and we hit all the great cities between 50 different cities.
BEHAR: Ok, the "Red State" tour starts March 5th. We`ll be right back. Thanks, Kevin.
SMITH: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She`s known as the tough talking former prosecutor who tells it like it is and that`s why we love her.
Take a look at this clip from her syndicated show, "Swift Justice".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN`S HOST, "SWIFT JUSTICE WITH NANCY GRACE": How old are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old am I right now? 14.
GRACE: What are going to be when you grow up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Architect.
GRACE: What about you? What are going to be when you grow up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to be a pilot.
GRACE: You know incidents like fighting, calling names, leaving nasty messages can land you in juvenile hall and then you won`t be anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Oh yeah. And where was she when Charles Manson was acting up? Here with me now is the host of HLN`s "NANCY GRACE" and also "Swift Justice with Nancy Grace". Welcome, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you for having me, as always.
BEHAR: It`s nice to be had.
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: True -- truer words were never spoken.
BEHAR: So now, OK. I know that you had the health scare because we were talking about it on "The View" today. And I think that the scariest part of that is thinking that you have cancer. Which is like the C word that no one wants to hear, right?
GRACE: It really is. In fact, I -- I grew up in a town where we still say --
BEHAR: They still say?
GRACE: Yes we --
BEHAR: Is that because they`re ashamed of it?
GRACE: No, I think it`s -- because you don`t want to think about it. You don`t want to say it out loud. And I -- I actually feel like a big sissy even discussing being upset, because I`m OK.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: But that moment is will -- forever be in my memory, Joy. And I was telling you about it, where I remember I came into the school building, where the children go to play. It was pouring rain, I was soaking wet and I didn`t have a coat to pick them up and they came running down the hall and I thought, who is going to pick them up? Who`s going to take care of them? Who`s going to be there when Lucy coughs and throws up or when she wants this or that, and John David likes his food a certain way and he`s always saying mommy, look, mommy, look. Mommy, all the time. Who? And so many women --
GREGORY: Well, daddy -- daddy would have been there, no? God forbid.
GRACE: It`s not the same.
BEHAR: Oh, OK.
GRACE: That -- you know this -- no it`s not the same.
BEHAR: No, no.
GRACE: Goodness no, no.
BEHAR: It`s a very, no, I understand what you`re saying, because it`s a very, very, it`s -- just a -- a terrible feeling that your children will be -- grow up without you.
GRACE: And I would just imagine --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: -- and hopefully looking down, but looking at them growing up and seeing what they would go through. All the things we all go through growing up. Their frustration, rejection, failure, trying hard sometimes to no avail; all the trials and tribulations and not having a mommy. And I`m thinking about all the ladies that were not as lucky as I --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: -- am, that are having to go through chemo and radiation. And all of that -- all I can is this, Joy, you know, you`re a mother.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: Moms think, oh, I got to get them in this school. Oh, I got to do this, I got to do that. They got to dress this way. But -- it doesn`t matter. If you love your children, go to the doctor. Make sure they have a mommy to hold them at night.
BEHAR: Well, you know, ovarian cancer, which is what the scare was, is really a scourge because there`s very little --
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: You don`t know.
BEHAR: -- in terms of prevention, there`s very little -- very few tests and the tests that they do have are not that great.
GRACE: Wildly erratic.
BEHAR: And so you know, Madeleine Kahn died of ovarian cancer.
GRACE: Yes.
BEHAR: And Gilda Radner, and I do a benefit for Madeleine every year because of research. They need money in research for ovarian cancer, because just to find a test to see if you`re at risk for it, you know, would be a nice --
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: And I remember telling the doctor, let`s do that blood test. And he was very honest and he said, you know, the blood test is so flawed.
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRACE: You`ll get false positives, false negatives. It really doesn`t tell me anything. And the -- the way they fail the mass and what was so concerning to them about it was that a test had been done in August, there was nothing. This is three months later, and it was there and it was big.
BEHAR: Well, it would grow, those tumors grow.
GRACE: Extremely aggressive.
BEHAR: I have -- you know what, I had the same exact thing that you had, and the only way they detected it was a vaginal sonogram.
GRACE: Right.
BEHAR: And then they see these things. And I had the same experience that you had. It was amazing when you were telling me today, I said, my God, and the doctor scared me also.
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: Well, --
BEHAR: He said to me, I`m sorry, you have to go through this. And I said, go through what? And then he called my gynecologist up and I heard the gynecologist ask him a few questions, then I got on the phone with the gynecologist and he said to me, it was 98 percent benign. They still went in there, they still took it all out, just like you.
GRACE: Well, the doctor, when he -- when he saw this, he looked at the size of the mass and he point-blank said there`s a very strong possibility. And I -- I had to make him tell me the truth.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: He didn`t want to tell me. And he said there`s an extremely strong possibility that it is cancer and we`re not going to know until we open you up.
BEHAR: Yes, you have to go in there. There is no biopsy involved here where they can just take --
GRACE: No.
BEHAR: The other question I asked you about that was that you said today that you kept --
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: And why don`t insurance policies cover all -- why can`t ultra- sounds be routine?
BEHAR: I don`t know, they`re expensive.
GRACE: And it`s just, it`s over.
BEHAR: Yes. I know, but you said that you kept one ovary. Why? Why? You`re planning on having more children?
GRACE: Maybe, maybe not. That`s for me to decide, Joy Behar.
BEHAR: OK, don`t turn on me now.
GRACE: No, no, here`s the thing. Because you know, if -- if you get rid of everything, then you`ve got to go through all the hormone replacements --
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: -- or you get really mean. And I don`t want to be accused of being mean.
BEHAR: No.
GRACE: OK.
BEHAR: You`re such a sweetheart.
GRACE: Yes, I don`t want that.
BEHAR: I would hate to go against the persona in that way.
What`s this about putting off the exam for a year? Why would you do that? You are telling people to go to the doctor, you --
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: I -- I put it off.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: I put it off, put it off, put it off and I was just so busy, you know. I`m up with the twins first thing, well, I get up around 5:00. And I`m up with the twins and you know and then the "Swift Justice", which I love, and the night show and I`m just -- everybody -- but everybody is. It`s not just me.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: My mom did the same thing. Working mothers. You know, we`re juggling all these plates. You want the house nice, you want the babies nice, you want them happy and healthy and you know learning as they`re supposed to learn. And you -- you want to do well at work. And it`s just --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It`s a lot.
GRACE: You can put off everything for yourself.
BEHAR: Right.
You know, I want to ask you about moms who snap. There`s a couple in the news this week -- or last week anyway. One of them was the woman who put hot sauce on the kid`s tongue. And the other one is--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: Down his throat, and then throws him in a cold shower. And this is after she adopts him. This is her -- she had six children. She adopts him from Russia. Guess that`s all over for us now. First, one mother sends her child back on a plane to Russia. Now this one makes the child drink Tabasco and throws him in a cold shower.
BEHAR: He`s a twin. That boy is a twin. There`s another kid. I don`t think the other kid was hot sauced, as they call it.
GRACE: No. That was probably the kid she had rolling the video.
BEHAR: It was a girl. So maybe they were fraternal. But what do you say to mothers who snap like that?
GRACE: First of all, I am trained over the years to look at it legally, and there is no snap defense. That does not exist. And it says in our law, you can`t walk to the kitchen, get the Tabasco sauce, trot back to the bathroom, open it up, stick it down his mouth, make sure it`s being videoed and then throw him in the shower.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: All that time, premeditation is formed in an instant, in the blink of an eye. She had plenty of time to form the intent to do what she did. She is facing a city ordnance charge of child abuse. I don`t think it`s enough.
Here`s the big question. All the children are still in the home. And here`s an even bigger question. If she`ll do this on video, what will she do behind closed doors?
BEHAR: Well, that`s the question for a lot of people who abuse their children, I think. And this was Cherry`s (ph) point to you was that at least she came out and said it. What did you think of that point?
GRACE: OK. So she confessed. Am I supposed to give her a gold star because she confessed? She`s on video. Of course she`d confess. How can she say I didn`t do it?
BEHAR: Well, she purposely did that to show Dr. Phil what she has been up to here with this particular child.
GRACE: But people get up to here all the time.
BEHAR: I`d like to know how they would feel. I`d like to take her head, this woman, and pour hot sauce right down her throat --
GRACE: And throw her in the cold shower.
BEHAR: And then throw her in the cold shower.
GRACE: And put it on video. Just for the heck of it.
BEHAR: I would put her in a hot shower. Really hot.
GRACE: I like the cold, juxtaposed against the hot.
BEHAR: Now, what about this other crazy woman? Julie Schenecker.
GRACE: She`s not.
BEHAR: OK. Crazy, I meant crazy like acting crazy. Not that she`s certifiable.
GRACE: OK. Yes. Let me tell you what I find out about Schenecker.
BEHAR: She shot both her children. OK, go ahead.
GRACE: She went and took out the paperwork to get a gun.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: Days passed. She gets the gun. She hides the gun in her SUV. Goes and picks up her 13-year-old boy at soccer time. Shoots him multiple times. First through the windshield, the boy saw his mother coming at him with a weapon.
Goes home, leaves the boy`s bloody body in the family SUV in their three-car garage. Big, huge 3,000-foot square plus square foot home, they`re not hurting for money.
Goes upstairs, gets the daughter, who`s sitting there --
BEHAR: Minding her own business.
GRACE: -- minding her own business, doing her homework on the computer. Shoots her in the back of the head. When she falls, she then she shoots her in the face.
BEHAR: I know. You know, we had a --
GRACE: Can you say death penalty? I don`t think those words would ever come out of your mouth --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: There`s other ones in Connecticut who killed that family. They should get the death penalty, too.
GRACE: Yes.
BEHAR: But you know what? One of the shrinks that we had on the show talked about it and she said a lot of times these women who kill their children have a lover. Do you think that could be true? That they have -- they wanted to get the kids out of the way so that they can conduct their illicit lives?
GRACE: I don`t think anything is impossible. But what`s she`s doing in some motel room, I don`t care about. All I care about is what she did to those children.
BEHAR: She had to have a stronger motive that she`s not certifiably crazy.
GRACE: I did notice this, when the husband came home from Qatar --
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: -- where he`s high up echelon in the military. In fact, they met I believe when she was an interpreter overseas. She`s not an idiot. He gave this big statement, all about his -- his children didn`t even mention her.
BEHAR: I know. Well, he`s not backing her up.
GRACE: Absolutely not.
BEHAR: I just wonder what else was going on with this woman.
Anyway, I have to go. Thank you, Nancy, very much.
Of course, you can see Nancy Grace right here on HLN every night at 8:00 p.m. And her show "Swift Justice" airs Monday through Friday.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m getting (inaudible) and puppy dog kisses all the time. And I`ll tell you what, you can`t put a price on that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look like your papa, yes, you do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My dogs are my life. It`s a little bit better holding a new puppy than having my own kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Americans love their pets, but even if you really love them, can you have too many of them? And at what point does a person go from being a pet owner to a pet hoarder?
With me now are some of the people featured in Animal Planet`s "Confessions: Animal Hoarding." Dawn, who had over 100 pets, including dogs, horses, geese and goats. Carolyn, who had over 80 dogs. And with them is Karen Cassiday, a clinical psychologist. She`s going to figure this whole thing out for us. And the owner of the Anxiety and Agoraphobia Treatment Center in Chicago. Welcome, ladies, to the show.
Carolyn, you had 85 dogs?
CAROLYN, ANIMAL HOARDER: Yes.
BEHAR: Why? Why?
CAROLYN: Well, years ago, I was volunteering at the shelter there in our town, and it got to the point where every day I would go in to clean, and every day there would be dogs gone. Day after day after day.
BEHAR: They were killing them?
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: They were, yes.
CAROLYN: And so, I got to the point where I just couldn`t take it. There would be people bringing animals in, and particularly this one, her name was Sadie. And I asked the gentleman, I said, what do you want to do with her? And he said he didn`t care what we did with her. She won`t make him any more money so he didn`t care if we put her down or not.
BEHAR: Oh, nice guy.
CAROLYN: So I took her home.
BEHAR: Took Sadie home.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: OK.
CAROLYN: And it was just story after story like that.
BEHAR: So, you did it out of the goodness of your heart.
CAROLYN: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: And let me just ask Carolyn for a minute, at what point -- Carolyn is here -- I`m talking to the other lady, Dawn. You had over 100 pets, Dawn. You were breeding dogs, horses, goats, geese. Were they all in the same house?
DAWN, ANIMAL HOARDER: No, they were out in the barn, the livestock. I did start the geese and the ducks, the poultry and so forth, in the house. So -- and there I tried to -- I figured I was going to be self- sufficient with the geese and chickens and going to use them to eat the eggs or the chickens, and it just never happened. I couldn`t bring myself to do it.
BEHAR: But I mean --
DAWN: But no--
BEHAR: You raised these animals, the geese, you raised them from eggs and you bottle-fed them.
DAWN: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, that is a real commitment, that is a real commitment to a pet. And then why --
DAWN: I would--
BEHAR: Go ahead.
DAWN: I would bottle-fed the puppies and so forth, and the baby, you know, the baby goats and so forth, so. It is -- it`s a 24-hour commitment, 24 hours a day.
BEHAR: Did you originally -- did you originally have these animals because you thought they would be dinner?
DAWN: I originally started out and what happened is I was in an awful abusive situation. I ended up having four operations and I just had to leave the city that I was living in, and I had to make a living. And I figured I`m going to breed dogs. This is going to be an easy living, you know. I`ll put food on the table for my family, my daughter. And I put -- invested a lot of money into it, my whole inheritance, thousands went into it. And I started breeding them. And I just felt guilty. They were in the kennel, and I felt guilty every time I would go out there and clean them and check the puppies, and eventually it started out that I would just start bringing them into the house with me. You know, I couldn`t leave them sleeping in the kennel. And it just added up and added up, and then I was known as the dog lady, and people would bring me their strays or I`d wake up in the morning and there would be a dog on my doorstep.
BEHAR: It`s too much. It`s too much.
DAWN: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: You ladies are too good. You did -- I think you did this out of the goodness of your heart, and then it became uncontrollable. So at what point, Carolyn, did you say enough with the pooper scooping?
CAROLYN: Well, you know, I never got tired of doing that. I never got tired of --
BEHAR: Really? I get tired with two dogs.
CAROLYN: -- like there would puppies I would take an eye dropper and feed, and put them in the sock and pin that sock to me and take it to bed with me.
BEHAR: Oh, my God.
KAREN CASSIDAY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Carolyn is illustrating--
BEHAR: Let`s hear from the shrink.
CASSIDAY: A lot of animal hoarders view their animals the way most people view an infant. And they feel incredibly powerful and loving and giving, and they view their sacrifice to animals in their health, in their home as a sign of their commitment and love. And they get lost in that.
BEHAR: I can see that. But there is a point of no return. I mean, you really love your animals. I mean, you were talking about your son before, who do you love more, your son or your dogs?
CAROLYN: You know, I did say that and I meant it. Because two kids are over 40, two`s (ph) going to 40, they are all -- have their careers, they`re all financially stable, and I can give one of my kids that, but then dogs needed me. They needed me.
BEHAR: Those dogs needed you.
CAROLYN: They needed me.
BEHAR: And the kids don`t anymore, is that the point?
CAROLYN: No. And my son would say, yes, mom, we need you, and I said, not as bad as they do.
BEHAR: OK. All right, we`re going to take a minute here, and then we`ll come back and we`ll find out how they kicked the habit. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking about animal hoarding with my guests. You know, during the break, Carolyn, you said that you spent $200,000 in the past 13 years on food and vet bills for these dogs of yours.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: Which you went from 85 dogs to nine of them.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: Where are the other 76 now?
CAROLYN: They have been adopted out.
BEHAR: You got them to be adopted?
CAROLYN: Well, we called in the Humane Society of St. Louis and they adopted them.
BEHAR: How did you give them up? What made you give them up?
CAROLYN: Well, for years the kids had been after us because of the money, our health, and my retirement and things--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Kids are like, ma, I need dental work.
CAROLYN: Yes, no--
(CROSSTALK)
CAROLYN: And so last winter, when it was really bad, I`m going -- it just hit me. It just --
BEHAR: You couldn`t take it anymore.
CAROLYN: I said this is no life for an animal, no life for an animal being out there, I don`t care how much straw we put in their houses and how good we fed them. This was no life for an animal.
BEHAR: Or for you. What about you?
CAROLYN: Well, I wasn`t --
BEHAR: You don`t see it that way?
CAROLYN: No, no.
BEHAR: It is all about them.
CAROLYN: You have to have a big heart, a deep soul, and lots of spirit to do what we`ve done.
BEHAR: I think you`re right. But it crosses over into something a little kooky, Doctor.
CASSIDAY: Yes. And I think you`re giving us a good example of the problem, which is you`re not talking about taking care of yourself. The thing we see with all these hoarders is it`s about taking care of animals and neglecting themselves, neglecting their family and friends.
BEHAR: There`s a difference between hoarding and collecting. You know? It seems to me that collectors have a lot of money. Is that true? I mean, I know people, rich people, who have collections of -- they have first edition books, you know, (inaudible) jewelry, this I have a lot of this -- not that I`m so rich-rich, but I can afford it. But hoarding seems to be people who just have a good heart and don`t have the money. Is that true?
CAROLYN: That`s true. There would be times when we would have to ask the kids for money to help feed the dogs, because the dogs come No. 1. They eat before we did.
BEHAR: OK, so how do they get over it?
CASSIDAY: Well, first they have to recognize that they`re a hoarder. And one thing that is very hard for hoarders is they see themselves as rescuers and animal saviors. And then we need to help them see a way to get out of the hoarding, that they are people who tend to be disorganized and have poor attention spans, and so we have to help them break down the steps. And then we also have to help them connect with people so they actually have a satisfying emotional and social life, so it is not just dogs, cats.
BEHAR: But they`re the opposite of people who only think about themselves.
CAROLYN: Right.
BEHAR: You`re the opposite of that.
CAROLYN: Yes.
BEHAR: And somewhere in between is a person who loves animals, has a couple of pets, and also goes and takes care of themselves and takes care of the children and everything else. So you have to find that, I guess, in between. Right?
CAROLYN: Right.
BEHAR: Dawn, how did you kick it?
DAWN: Well, I`m still struggling with it, to be honest with you. In fact, I had a dog dropped off at my house last week. And now I have the tools, thank God for Animal Planet. I have the tools, I know who to contact. I`m not, you know, taking -- I`m not putting my own money into it.
BEHAR: Yes. All right.
DAWN: So you know--
BEHAR: Thanks so much, ladies. We have to go. That was so interesting, I think. And good luck to you. I hope you don`t have a relapse.
CAROLYN: Thank you.
BEHAR: All right, "Confessions: Animal Hoarding" airs Friday nights on Animal Planet. Good night, everybody.
END
