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Joy Behar Page
Fear Factor; Mackenzie Phillips Speaks Out
Aired February 24, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, should parents use extreme fear and shaming tactics to discipline their kids? Joy says no. But she`ll talk to parents who were arrested after bringing their 6-year- old daughter to a police station to scare her straight.
Then Mackenzie Phillips talks about the backlash she faced after revealing her father sexually abused her as a child.
Plus, you know her from "Sex and the City", but Kim Cattrall isn`t your average vixen. The British actress talks about her new role on PBS`s "Masterpiece", and yes, a little sex too.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: A couple of New Yorkers thought it would be a good idea to take their misbehaving 6-year-old to a police station to scare her straight. But the police thought differently and arrested the couple for child endangerment.
Here now are the parents I just mentioned, Geraldo Santiago, Annette Gerhardt, plus their lovely daughter, Inayla. Welcome to the show, you guys.
So let me start with you, Geraldo. What did she do that prompted you to take her to -- or was it you?
ANNETTE GERHARDT, MOTHER: It was both ours.
BEHAR: Yes, what does she do that was -- that made you take her there.
GERHARDT: For most of the last three weeks at her public school she`s been misbehaving, not listening to her teacher. And it was brought to my attention through her mother-in-law that last Wednesday she got told -- if she continues her behavior, she`s going to winds up getting taken out of her class and put into a special program.
BEHAR: So, it`s only -- Inayla watch me. Look over here.
So listen, this behavior thing that we`re talking about here, was only in the past three weeks, right?
GERHARDT: Yes.
BEHAR: So what happened to you that made you start to act a little badly? What happened? Did something happen to you? Then what happened -- tell me what happened in school?
I. SANTIAGO: I was talking.
BEHAR: You were talking? Oh I have the same problem.
I. SANTIAGO: And I got out of my seat.
BEHAR: You were talking and you didn`t want to stay in your seat? How come? You just felt like it? And so the teachers got mad because they couldn`t discipline her in the class?
GERHARDT: They weren`t able to control her, once she got up, then the rest of the class wanted to get up, they didn`t want to sit and read. It was a big distraction in class.
BEHAR: So she would get up, and then the other kids would get up. She has leadership qualities.
GERHARDT: I have thought of it that way, but the principal and teachers advise us it`s not good skills because she`s young. It`s good when they get older but she`s still little and she should still listen to teachers.
BEHAR: Do you not want -- Inayla, do you not want to listen to the teacher? You don`t want to listen to her, do you? Why not? All right.
Now what happened to you two because you decided that you would take her to the police station, you got this idea from somebody?
GERALDO SANTIAGO, FATHER: It was actually her co-worker.
BEHAR: Your co-worker did this to one of her kids?
GERHARDT: A 4-year-old son.
BEHAR: Four-year-old. Took him to the police station?
GERHARDT: The 123rd precinct in Staten Island.
BEHAR: Ok. And what happened when she did that?
GERHARDT: When she went with him, he was out of control. And she walked up, a gentleman took her son and explained to him that -- asked him questions, if he was a bad boy. He did say yes, he admitted to that.
Then he said, well, do you want to leave your mommy and daddy? He told him no. Would you like to leave your toys, your friends, your family. And the boy was like no.
And he goes well, this is where bad boys and girls go, when they don`t listen to the adults. And he goes would you promise to be good? And, you know, her son promised and that was it.
BEHAR: You know, the bottom line is, that`s not true, that they`re going to take away your toys and take you away. It`s just one big lie that we`re telling the kid.
So does it really do any good to take them to police stations and scare them that much? She`s such a sweet little kid. Maybe something was bugging her.
GERHARDT: That`s what we`ve been trying to talk to her, the last couple days. We had this weekend trip planned to go away weekend, or the last week that just passed. I didn`t want to show her she could be bad in school and still have it. So that was my main thing. I don`t want to keep on giving to her and giving to her, show her that I`m doing these things and she doesn`t listen in school.
BEHAR: What grade are you?
I. SANTIAGO: First.
BEHAR: First is a nightmare. I couldn`t tell time when I was in the first grade and the teacher was very nasty against me. I pretended I was sick for six months. Now that`s bad behavior isn`t it. I wasn`t even really sick. My mother took me all different doctors and everything and I was just making the whole thing up.
See. So you`re not such a bad kid after all, I was a worse kid than you. But you know, the thing about it, Inayla, is you didn`t like that experience going to the police station did you?
I. SANTIAGO: No.
BEHAR: Did it scare you? It did. Do you think it will make you behave better in school because you got scared by the police station?
You do? So it worked. It worked.
G. SANTIAGO: Sort of.
BEHAR: But you guys are in trouble with the cops now.
G. SANTIAGO: Yes.
BEHAR: They`re charging you with child endangerment.
G. SANTIAGO: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, how come your friend didn`t get charged and how come you got charged with it. This is what the prosecutors are claiming, they`re saying that you said I can`t take her any more. She`s uncontrollable, I`m going to leave her here, if you don`t take her, I will take her to the firehouse. Did you say that?
GERHARDT: Never.
BEHAR: You didn`t say that?
GERHARDT: No. There`s was a big discrepancy the whole time I was in there. I walked up to the first police officer, winked at her the moment I walked down with my daughter. I said, is this where you take bad boys and girls? My tone was not loud. My daughter was screaming in the beginning.
BEHAR: You were screaming Inayla? Why were you screaming?
I. SANTIAGO: Because I didn`t like the police station.
BEHAR: Why not?
I. SANTIAGO: Too scary for me.
BEHAR: Too scare for you, yes. It scares the kids. I don`t know. Do you regret it?
GERHARDT: I do at this moment. But what it led to -- I wasn`t expecting an outcome like this. I was expecting something positive.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, maybe this will all work out for you. I certainly hope so.
GERHARDT: Thanks.
BEHAR: All right.
GERHARDT: Now, these parents tried an unconventional punishment, and they clearly meant well. But other people go to greater extremes.
There`s a show on A&E called "Beyond Scared Straight". It brings at- risk kids face to face with inmates who will try to scare them into behaving. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You like to steal. I like to steal too. Take your shoes off. This is what happens when people steal in prison. They come to prison and get their stuff stolen from them, you understand me?
That means that somebody can come in here in this blind spot and bust your head wide open and take your shoes and leave you laying for dead, man. You want to be left that way? In a puddle of blood?
Somebody calling home to your mom, telling them her little baby just got their head busted. Somebody that steals shouldn`t be crying because you don`t care about nobody but yourself.
BEHAR: So when it comes to discipline do tactics of fear and shame ever work? I`ll ask Dr. Laura Markham, clinical psychologist and parenting expert.
Laura, does this kind of discipline work in your opinion?
DR. LAURA MARKHAM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it might work for a short time. There`s a difference between a teenager in that kind of a program and a 6-year-old. But you take a 6-year-old into the police station and she`s screaming and terrified. She doesn`t know that her parents aren`t really going to leave her there. So, yes, she might in fact improve her behavior as long as she believes that for a short time. But that`s not going to last very long. You have to keep escalating, what`s the mom growing to do when she`s ten, pull a gun on her?
BEHAR: It does scare the child, I think.
But you know, what about the humiliation? Like I was reading about a Florida mom, she made her son stand outside with a sign that said he had a 1.2 GPA score. Watch this video from Fox 13 in Tampa. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONDA HOLDER, MADE SON CARRY SIGN WITH GPA ON IT: Until he straightens up his grades, his educational track, he`s going to work this (INAUDIBLE). You take the phone, you take things from her, it doesn`t work. So embarrassment is the best thing. He doesn`t like to get embarrassed.
He doesn`t like and I`m probably the baddest parent in the world right about now, but he`ll be ok. In the long run, he`ll thank me for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Do you think he`ll be ok and in the long run he`ll thank her for it?
MARKHAM: No, I think a kid who has a GPA that low needs a lot more than having someone put pressure on him. He needs to be spending time, not every day out on the street with that board around him, hardening his heart to his mother and ruining their relationship.
Now, he needs time with a tutor, he needs all kinds of help that that mom is not getting him. I understand parents get frustrated with their kids. It`s tough being a parent. But that`s not discipline. Discipline means guidance, that`s what the word means. And discipline means you want your kid to want to behave. None of these scare tactics make kids want to behave.
BEHAR: If the kid is not doing well in school and the parents don`t have the money for a private tutor, what are they supposed to do? I mean this woman that you just saw is probably frustrated that he`s not doing well enough in school, and she`s worried about his future. You know.
MARKHAM: Of course.
BEHAR: What can she do really?
MARKHAM: Of course. And she can start with his teacher and she can start with the after-school programs, and whatever the school offers.
BEHAR: If there are any.
MARKHAM: If there are any.
(CROSSTALK)
MARKHAM: Yes, I know with all the budget cuts it`s hard to find that. But in fact teachers do care about the progress of their students and when a mom comes in and is prepared to really sit with her kid while he does his homework, to work with a teacher on a daily basis.
You know, it should have start when the kid was 8 not when the kid is this old. But it can still have a profound impact. But he needs to feel like mom`s on his side, not mom humiliating him in front of the world.
For a young man to feel humiliated that way, that drives a tremendous wedge between him and his mom.
BEHAR: Yes. I think it`s problematic.
Now what about the hot sauce mom, quickly, I`m running out of time.
MARKHAM: Oh, my goodness.
BEHAR: Do you think that`s -- is there an uptick in this type of crazy disciplining that`s going on?
MARKHAM: I think that there`s an erosion of the relationship between parents and children. And that makes kids less likely to behave for parents and it makes parents more frustrated and they don`t what to do.
BEHAR: Exactly, exactly.
MARKHAM: But that hot sauce mom, that kid is going to be fighting back violently against her within a very short time.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you very much, Laura. Thanks.
We`ll be back in a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW. Mackenzie Phillips talks about the backlash she faced after revealing her father sexually abused her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: In Mackenzie Phillips` memoir "High on Arrival", which now is out in paperbacks, she tells the brutally candid story of her life-long battle with drug addiction as well as revelations of an incestuous relationship with her father.
Welcome to the program, Mackenzie Phillips. How are you?
MACKEZIE PHILLIPS, AUTHOR, "HIGH ON ARRIVAL": Thank you. I`m good.
BEHAR: It was good to see you again. Last time we were far away. Now you`re right here with me.
(CROSS TALK)
M. PHILLIPS: That`s right. It`s nice.
BEHAR: In -- in this new paperback addiction --
(CROSS TALK)
M. PHILLIPS: Addiction?
BEHAR: -- edition, you say that you --
M. PHILLIPS: That wasn`t good. New paperback addiction?
BEHAR: I`m addicted to paperback.
M. PHILLIPS: There you go.
BEHAR: That`s what it is. You say you were surprised by all the media attention. Why were you so surprised?
M. PHILLIPS: Well, I mean -- look, I think because I lived this life my whole life --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
M. PHILLIPS: -- and I`m almost 52 years old, that it becomes your reality, it becomes what you -- you know, what you know, what you live, what you remember.
BEHAR: Yes.
M. PHILLIPS: And then, sure, I knew that it was going to be a little explosive, but I certainly didn`t expect people to get all whack crazy on me.
BEHAR: They got whacked?
M. PHILLIPS: They got whack crazy.
And -- and yesterday I was doing a bunch of interviews about the added chapter, and everyone kept focusing on the family. But it -- the added chapter also talks so much about the community of incest survivors and it`s not just that one thing.
BEHAR: Right. Is that why you went public with it, because of that?
M. PHILLIPS: At first it wasn`t why I went public with it. I thought, I didn`t know the -- you know, I learned this from Dr. Drew, the incidents of incest in this country. You know, I knew that I couldn`t be the only one, I mean, obviously. But I certainly didn`t -- didn`t know that I was going to become a voice for a community that I didn`t even really know I belonged to.
BEHAR: It`s shocking, the numbers.
M. PHILLIPS: The numbers are overwhelming.
BEHAR: Some people don`t think it was a good idea for you to go public. I was watching the thing on "Access Hollywood." Let`s watch this --
(CROSS TALK)
M. PHILLIPS: Ok.
BEHAR: -- this piece of footage from Billy Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILLY BUSH, TV HOST: I`ll be honest with you, I told my executive producer I don`t want to do this. I don`t like that I mean, I think it should be a private thing --
M. PHILLIPS: Well, you -- you weren`t -- you weren`t particularly kind --
BUSH: -- and I don`t book the show.
M. PHILLIPS: -- you weren`t particularly kind when the book first came out. I certainly didn`t expect you to be particularly kind today.
BUSH: I -- I think it`s a private thing, Mackenzie, I -- I think, I`d like to see this taking place in a therapist`s couch. I mean, I -- I don`t --
M. PHILLIPS: It does take place there as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well first of all, let me ask you a question. If he wasn`t particularly kind when you went, why did you go back on the show?
M. PHILLIPS: Well, I`m an eternal optimist. And I never spoke -- I`ve never met the man, I`ve never spoken to the man until yesterday. I just remember him being on a panel saying something --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Oh.
M. PHILLIPS: -- kind of creepy about the whole thing. And I thought, you know, I mean, -- I -- I can take on anybody. I really can.
BEHAR: Right.
M. PHILLIPS: And so you know when I pointed to him and I said you are perpetuating this sickness by being so damned closed-minded. You know it`s just, I -- I am shocked that -- that he had the balls to -- I mean -- fine, yes, I`m sure you`ve interviewed people you didn`t necessarily want to interview, but did you tell them?
BEHAR: No.
M. PHILLIPS: I was forced to do this?
BEHAR: No, no. It`s so unprofessional actually.
M. PHILLIPS: It`s so unprofessional, yes.
BEHAR: I mean, you`re not forced, nobody forces you to do anything. Take the day off, Billy.
M. PHILLIPS: Right.
BEHAR: And but do you really care? You don`t care what he thinks anyway, right?
M. PHILLIPS: I don`t give a flying you-know-what what Billy Bush thinks about me.
BEHAR: Ok, good. Now what -- let`s talk about the family. What was the fallout from the family?
M. PHILLIPS: Well, in "High on Arrival" the reason that I get to be here and talk about the book is because of the added chapter. I felt like it was very important for me to take the time to write another chapter, talking about what happened after the book came out.
And basically, you know my family, except for my ex-husband, my mother, my son, stopped talking to me.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Really.
M. PHILLIPS: And -- or course, Chynna talked to me to come on Oprah and then, you know, she -- our relationship basically went back to friendly indifference as soon as --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Well, she -- you know, she was on this show talking about it, let me show you what she said when she was here in December.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHYNNA PHILLIPS, SINGER, WILSON PHILLIPS: When it became public, I just did not really know how to deal head on with --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: And your response to it?
C. PHILLIPS: -- everybody knowing. I just felt extremely exposed and vulnerable and it did kick in some anxiety, I have to admit.
BEHAR: It`s brutal to find -- did you believe her?
C. PHILLIPS: Well, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, she said she believed you, do you -- now she doesn`t?
M. PHILLIPS: No, it`s not that, I think that -- no, of course, she`s not the kind of person who would take back you know, that -- that truth. I -- I don`t know, I don`t know, see, because they won`t speak to me, so I don`t know.
BEHAR: Why don`t they speak to you?
M. PHILLIPS: I don`t know.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Are they --
M. PHILLIPS: And I think they`re trying to protect a brand a legacy - -
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Oh you`re father.
M. PHILLIPS: --a financial -- we all share a financial interest in my father`s estate, and I think that -- that -- and they could very well be right that the estate has been devalued by -- by me telling the truth about my life.
BEHAR: I don`t see why people wouldn`t listen to "California Dreaming"? It`s still a good song whether -- I mean --
M. PHILLIPS: It`s dreaming, he was a brilliant songwriter.
BEHAR: Yes.
M. PHILLIPS: He was a brilliant musician and he wasn`t a particularly good father. He was a very charming person. He was --
BEHAR: Oh he was a terrible father, Mackenzie --
M. PHILLIPS: He was a tortured awful father.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: The worst father, yes, a terrible father. Go there. Go there.
M. PHILLIPS: And he was there, he was that way with the rest of us.
BEHAR: Yes.
M. PHILLIPS: Not, not sexual incest, but he wasn`t a good dad, you know. He would say, oh, you can count on me.
BEHAR: Yes.
M. PHILLIPS: But maybe not.
BEHAR: But he was stoned anyway half the time, right?
M. PHILLIPS: Yes, yes, you`re right.
BEHAR: So that you know, between the drugs and the molestation, he`s not the father of the year, I`ll tell you that.
M. PHILLIPS: No, and he was the first one to admit it.
BEHAR: Ok.
M. PHILLIPS: He said, "I probably should never have been allowed to have children."
BEHAR: Smart. The smartest thing he ever said.
We`ll have more with Mackenzie Phillips after a short break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Coming up tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" David Arquette`s dramatic revelations to Oprah Winfrey today about how his estranged wife Courtney Cox tried to save him. That`s coming up on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Mackenzie Phillips.
There`s this music group The Five Browns and they`ve come out with some revelations. What do you know of it?
PHILLIPS: What a story. These are five -- I think it`s four kids and the father, I don`t know exactly.
BEHAR: Three daughters.
PHILLIPS: Three daughters and two brothers. They`re Juilliard trained, brilliant musicians, the girls have been on the road with their dad for years and years and years. They find out that the dad is going to start managing young children`s music.
The girls go, oh, no way. They call the police and charge him with incest and sodomy. The man is going to spend the rest of his life in prison. These girls are so brave.
I mean we`re talking about, you know, like Billy Bush coming out and saying, this should be quiet. Well, if we keep it quiet, then how are we going to affect a change. These girls are so brave, their dad is going to jail.
BEHAR: Keeping it quiet protects the perpetrator.
PHILLIPS: Exactly.
BEHAR: That`s the thing. Secrets will protect people who commit crimes.
PHILLIPS: Well, I mean look at Michelle Phillips saying, she`s crazy, she`s a drug addict, she`s this, she`s that. Well then, this is classic. Let`s call the victim crazy and protect the perpetrator. It`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: I mean you were the victim in this, and yet they`re all over you.
PHILLIPS: Isn`t it weird? And I`m alive and he`s dead . It`s kind of weird.
BEHAR: I don`t know. I mean they`re just protecting something I guess.
Let`s look at this clip of David Arquette on Oprah today. This is interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID ARQUETTE, ACTOR: I had my first drink of beer in --
OPRAH WINFREY, TV TALK SHOW HOST: How old were you?
ARQUETTE: I must have been 4 years old. I was down in the basement with my Dad and beer was there and I just grabbed it and then drink it. I remember that, it`s one of my earliest memories.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It started young with this kid. Did the drug thing start young with you?
PHILLIPS: Yes. Not that young. My dad taught me how to roll joints for him. I was like the joint roller for the adults when I was 10. I think the first time I drank I was maybe 11. And then the first time I stole some coke from my dad I was 12.
But the thing is, obviously he grew up in sort of a counter culture kind of family, similar to mine, and when you grow up in that kind of culture, it becomes ingrained in you. You know, it seems as normal as getting a carton of milk out of a fridge to see someone spark up a joint or snort some coke. You go, oh, this is what you do. When you`re a kid, you go, oh, this is what you do.
BEHAR: It seems normal.
PHILLIPS: It does seem normal. And then it takes so many years to get to the other side where you look back and you go holy crap, that was not normal at all. I mean I look at my own son who`s now 24. Throughout his life I`d look at him at 10 and think, oh man I was being taught how to roll joints.
It makes you really realize the power you have as a parent, and how you have to use that power for good and come from a place of love.
BEHAR: Right.
PHILLIPS: And know that your words and your actions have meaning.
BEHAR: You were fired from "One Day at a Time" for bad behavior, I guess.
PHILLIPS: Twice.
BEHAR: They haven`t fired Charlie Sheen? What`s the difference?
PHILLIPS: Charlie has a great deal of power. And although -- and it`s a different time. We`re talking 1983 or something, 1979. People didn`t go to rehab. I was sort of one of the pioneers of that thing.
They just said, go get well and I`d go have my teeth cleaned, get my hair done and buy a new outfit. Three weeks later I`d come back and go hey. And they`d go hey. And then I`d screw up again. You know.
BEHAR: Yes.
PHILLIPS: And that`s basically what`s happening to Charlie. He`s getting to call the shots and when you`re starting recovery, you should not be allowed to call the shots.
BEHAR: That`s right. He`s being criticized for that.
PHILLIPS: Your best thinking gets you where you are, so your best thinking isn`t going to get you out of it. Someone else`s best thing is going to do that.
BEHAR: You know what? You seem so well adjusted now.
PHILLIPS: Thank you.
BEHAR: And you`ve come through, I think, the darkest parts of your life.
PHILLIPS: I hope you`re right. It is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And congratulations to you.
PHILLIPS: Thank you, Joy. I have a great deal of respect for you. Thank you so much for having me on.
BEHAR: All right. I like having you on the show.
PHILLIPS: I like it. Thanks.
BEHAR: The updated paperback version of "High on Arrival" is out now. And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know her as the sexy Samantha Jones from "Sex and the City" but Kim Cattrall is taking a dramatic turn in the PBS "Masterpiece" mini-series, "Any Human Heart."
Take a look.
(VIDEO CLIP, "ANY HUMAN HEART")
BEHAR: With me now is the lovely and talented Kim Cattrall. I love you in "Masterpiece" theater. I`ve seen you in another one.
KIM CATTRALL, ACTRESS: Yes, "My Boy Jack."
BEHAR: "My Boy Jack."
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: What is with you and the Brits, Kim?
CATTRALL: Well, I`m actually a Brit.
BEHAR: You are?
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: You`re not American?
CATTRALL: No, I was born in Liverpool, England. And I grew up --
BEHAR: Really?
CATTRALL: Yes, I grew up in Canada. And all of my family is still -- my immediate family is in Canada, the rest is in Liverpool.
BEHAR: No kidding.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: So, how old were you when you came -- went to Canada?
CATTRALL: I was just a baby. But I went back in the late `60s and I lived there for a couple years. And I took exams and I decided at 10 that I wanted to see if I could be an actress.
And my great aunt was -- or aunt -- was an elocution teacher in Liverpool. And she took me to theater. I was my first theater when I was about 10, 11, 12 at that time. So, that`s where I literally got the bug.
BEHAR: So, you must have been -- maybe you were not poor, but lower middle class, that`s why they moved to Canada?
CATTRALL: Definitely.
BEHAR: Yes.
CATTRALL: There was no work. I mean, after the Second World War, the Great Depression and the Second World War, there was not a lot of work, especially in the north of England which was basically a port city of Liverpool.
BEHAR: Right.
CATTRALL: That was all shifting, you know? There was a big change. And my father was a construction engineer. So, he decided that he was going to immigrate.
And he didn`t know whether it was going to be Australia or Canada. And the Canadian visa came up quicker than the Australian one did. So, that`s why we came to Canada.
BEHAR: Really?
CATTRALL: Yes. My mom stayed behind, had me. And when she was able to travel, we joined him in Montreal.
BEHAR: That`s nice.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: You could have gone to Australia.
CATTRALL: I know. That would have been nice, too.
BEHAR: You would have been a big star in Australia.
CATTRALL: Aw. Thank you.
BEHAR: But here, too, right? Now, you know, I`m a very big Anglophile myself. And I wonder from an actor who works with the Brits whether -- you think that they get better training than Americans?
CATTRALL: I think what they get is and what is part of the culture is theater, and mostly because it`s subsidized. We don`t have subsidized theater.
BEHAR: The National Theater and all that?
CATTRALL: The National Theater, the Royal Court, the Donmar Warehouse, where they`re not just training actors, they`re training set designers, they`re training playwrights, directors, there`s a place to really grow and learn.
BEHAR: Wow!
CATTRALL: It`s very difficult to find that in the United States.
BEHAR: It`s impossible.
CATTRALL: It`s just a part of the culture there.
BEHAR: Yes.
CATTRALL: And I think that when people say they want to be an actor, it doesn`t necessarily mean they want to be a movie star. They just -- they want to -- usually a lot of them, especially for my generation, just wanted to do theater. Because to do television seemed like a dream, it was so far away, from what I was trained to do and what I wanted to do. The one I fell in love with which was the theater.
BEHAR: Look at you, "Masterpiece" and "Sex and the City." You go from one extreme to the other, really.
CATTRALL: It really has been an amazing journey through the last six years after "Sex and the City" ended because, you know, at the end of this seven years that changed all of our lives, I thought, well, what do I do now? And the scripts kept coming, and they were basically to do the same thing that I was already known for in America particularly.
So, I had met Sir Peter Hall. I had done a play called "Wild Honey" with Ian McKellen years ago in Broadway and we had kept in communication. He said, you know, I`d like to work with you. And he sent me a script called "The Royal Family" that Judi Dench was doing in the West End and, unfortunately, the dates didn`t work with the series. But as soon as the series ended, he said to me, I have a play I want to do with you. He said, it`s "Who`s Life Is It Anyway?"
BEHAR: Oh, that.
CATTRALL: It was originally written for a man who was writing for the -- who was fighting for the right to die.
BEHAR: Yes.
CATTRALL: He was a quadriplegic.
BEHAR: I know, Mary Tyler Moore was in that.
CATTRALL: She did for a very short period of time on Broadway. And he said, we`re going to rewrite it a little bit. Brian Clark who was the playwright came along to rehearse a room and we did that. And, you know, being a great friend of Christopher Reeve, this was an amazing opportunity to talk about a person`s rights, you know?
BEHAR: You were a friend of Christopher Reeve?
CATTRALL: I was. Yes, I hosted his 50th birthday party.
BEHAR: That was a tragic story, and then Dana Reeve dies of lung cancer. And the girl -- I mean, she never smoked. She never did anything to give herself lung cancer at all.
CATTRALL: No, no, no.
BEHAR: And died -- it was a tragic story, the boy, I mean, is alone.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: But anyway, let`s lighten up a little bit.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: You shot to fame in 1987 in this movie -- in this movie "Mannequin"?
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: And we have a clip from that.
CATTRALL: Oh, God.
(MOVIE CLIP, "MANNEQUIN")
BEHAR: It doesn`t even look like you.
CATTRALL: I know, it was the `80s. Everybody had so much hair and so much make-up.
BEHAR: You were pretty, but you did look too like a different pretty.
CATTRALL: Totally different person.
BEHAR: Yes.
CATTRALL: Well, not totally different.
BEHAR: So, that was your launch?
CATTRALL: Yes, I had done a film called "Ticket to Heaven" in Canada which was about the Moonies; I had been nominated for a couple awards.
BEHAR: Which Moonies?
CATTRALL: It was called -- it was the Moonies. Remember the Moonies from the `70s?
BEHAR: You mean the ones that got married en masse? That group?
CATTRALL: Yes. That group. It was a film based on a book written by a journalist for the "Montreal Gazette," I think it was. It was called "Moonwebs" and he wrote this screenplay and this man called Ralph Thomas who had come from a documentary background.
We filmed it and rehearsed for two weeks, which is usually unheard of on a movie, as you know. And then we shot it in sequence like you would do a play. So, it was a terrific experience. And I played the head of a brainwashing camp.
BEHAR: Oh.
CATTRALL: So, that was -- that, first of all, put me on the map. And then I did a film called "Tribute with Jack Lemmon and Robbie Benson."
BEHAR: I know that movie.
CATTRALL: Exactly. And then "Mannequin" came from that.
BEHAR: But you`re also -- when you were 17, I understand you worked with Otto Preminger on something called "Rose Bud."
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, he was a real jerk, Otto Preminger.
CATTRALL: He was the best that he was. He was the best best that he was.
BEHAR: So, was he nice -- he wasn`t nice to you?
CATTRALL: No, no, he wasn`t nice to anybody.
BEHAR: What did he do to you?
CATTRALL: You know, what it was was sort of a form of intimidation, you know? He doesn`t want anybody to feel overconfident in anyway or even confident so he would have controls. So, he was very much a bully. It didn`t matter whether you were in front of the camera or behind the camera, he sort of reigned, it was a reign of terror.
BEHAR: Really?
CATTRALL: Every day, you felt that someone was growing to lose their job, which invariably they did. And after that film, I mean, I came -- graduated from American Academy, this was my first job, and it was a movie, which I never expected. And then I was in the south of France, with five of these other girls, one of them being a great actress, Isabelle Huppert, the French actress.
BEHAR: Oh, I love her. She`s brilliant.
CATTRALL: We became friends over -- we all bonded actually because we were under threat from him.
BEHAR: From him?
CATTRALL: Yes. So, I remember thinking to myself at the time, at 17 finishing the film, I never want to do another film.
BEHAR: Of course.
CATTRALL: I will -- this is -- I want to go back to the theater, people are sane.
BEHAR: You thought all of them would be like him?
CATTRALL: Well, the least -- the thing of least importance was what was going on in front of the camera, it seemed. You know, we didn`t really rehearse, and when we did, he would stop in the middle, and then he would start again. And he didn`t like the way you`re doing and he didn`t like the script. He didn`t like the lights.
BEHAR: And he was nasty about it.
CATTRALL: Nasty.
BEHAR: Maybe a little sadistic.
CATTRALL: No question. I mean, he was really responsible, I think, for Dorothy Dandridge -- I mean, for her having a lot of difficulties in her life.
BEHAR: Really? Wow!
OK. Get comfortable because we have more with Kim Cattrall on the way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(VIDEO CLIP, "SEX AND THE CITY")
BEHAR: I`m back with Kim Cattrall, the star of the PBS "Masterpiece" mini-series, "Any Human Heart." Of course, that was a clip from "Sex and the City" the movie number two, right?
CATTRALL: That was number one.
BEHAR: Oh, that was number one.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. You`re always on a beach somewhere. So, weren`t you in Saudi Arabia on a beach or Bahrain?
CATTRALL: No, no, we were in Morocco -- Morocco. It was supposed to be Abu Dhabi but it was Morocco.
BEHAR: Abu Dhabi?
CATTRALL: Abu Dhabi.
BEHAR: OK. So, you know, "Sex and the City" is really is (INAUDIBLE) you know at this point. It`s appealing to men, gay men mostly, and women.
Do you think there are straight guys watching it?
CATTRALL: I hope they do. I think especially the series, because there was that aspect of a fly on the wall, which I think men -- especially heterosexual men -- learned maybe a little bit something about the consequences of their actions. I mean, one of my favorite episodes in that vain was when he broke up with the Carrie character on a post-it.
BEHAR: Oh, yes, yes.
CATTRALL: Yes, which is like, guys think, well, you know, it wasn`t working, whatever, you know, I just ended it. And so, a lot of heterosexual men don`t like confrontation, you know?
BEHAR: That`s true.
CATTRALL: They don`t -- it makes them very uncomfortable.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. But they also learned some sexual techniques from you. Which was --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s a very good thing to be putting out there.
CATTRALL: No, you -- that`s very important.
BEHAR: Very important?
CATTRALL: I don`t think they learn -- I think they learned of sexual things. I mean, the crew used to say, Kim, you are woman where no woman has gone there before, especially on television. I think --
BEHAR: Well, you taught them to go where most men don`t go. You what I`m saying?
(LAUGHTER)
CATTRALL: True.
BEHAR: OK.
CATTRALL: You`re right about that, yes.
BEHAR: OK. So, now, there are persistent rumors all the time that you girls don`t get along. Now, we get the same --
CATTRALL: You must get the same thing with "The View."
BEHAR: We do. The minute you have women working together, they never say on "The Entourage" show, do you guys get along?
CATTRALL: No, or the "Sopranos," never. Never, never, never. That`s the fate of women working together. They can`t get along.
BEHAR: Is it pure and simple, sexism?
CATTRALL: I think it is. Yes, it is. And I think it makes good copy. Women scratching each other`s eyes out, usually over men or power or whatever it is. No, I think makes good copy, people like that.
BEHAR: Makes good copy, a good cat fight.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, you`ve been married three times, Kim? I didn`t know that.
CATTRALL: No, my first marriage was annulled, so I was really married twice.
BEHAR: Well --
CATTRALL: Semantics.
BEHAR: Yes. Samantha`s.
CATTRALL: No.
BEHAR: And I read your book, "Satisfaction: The Art of the Female Orgasm," where you basically, you wrote that with one of your husbands, right?
CATTRALL: My second husband, yes.
BEHAR: Your second husband. And you actually wrote in that book that the orgasm was an art form, to me it was always an accident.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know what I mean?
CATTRALL: Well, you know, I think you -- that`s a good reason for a book like that then, isn`t it? Yes, make that accident happen more often.
BEHAR: Exactly.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: And how is dating now? I mean, I don`t want to ask your age, but, you know, you`re not under 40 any more.
CATTRALL: No, I`m in my 50s, proudly in my 50s.
BEHAR: You look damn good, shout it from the rooftop.
CATTRALL: Thank you.
BEHAR: So, how is the dating scene for women over 50 these days?
CATTRALL: I think that -- I can`t really -- it`s a tough one.
BEHAR: Do men confuse your character with the real Kim Cattrall.
CATTRALL: Not just men, women -- I think most people do. But after spending a very short period of time with me, they realize that I`m not Samantha. I don`t have any of her appetites, so --
BEHAR: Really?
CATTRALL: Yes, maybe for food.
BEHAR: It`s acting, you`re an actress.
CATTRALL: I`m an actress, yes.
BEHAR: I mean, you do "Masterpiece" theater, you`re an actress.
CATTRALL: Yes, I do -- I do Broadway, do the West End, you know? I do a lot of different kinds of things as an actor. I think people had something invested.
And I spoke about this before, I think sometimes at the beginning, you know, when the show hit, people would book me for jobs or interviews like this, and they would expect me to be Samantha. And I always found they were slightly disappointed that I wasn`t because they wanted the bold move. They wanted all of that.
And I thought oh, gosh, this is really terrible. I`m much more complex than this character that I play on television, but nobody seems to be that interested.
BEHAR: I`ve been at dinners with you, one in the Hamptons, you were very quiet. I thought, she`s very shy, she`s like a nun.
CATTRALL: Well, you were talking so much, I couldn`t get a word in edge wise.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That could be it. That could be it.
Now, what about the term --
CATTRALL: You and Mario, I just --
BEHAR: Mario and also Joe Rappaport, it was at their house.
CATTRALL: There you go. What chance did I have?
BEHAR: And Joan Hamburg was there -- yak, yak, yak, yak, yak. All of us.
CATTRALL: You know, that`s when you sit back and enjoy the ride.
BEHAR: You were so quite. I said, look how quite Kim Cattrall is.
CATTRALL: You expected me to be --
BEHAR: I expected you to be like your character a little bit.
CATTRALL: Yes. No.
BEHAR: I expected you to go to the bedroom with the host, as a matter of fact.
CATTRALL: Oh, God.
BEHAR: No, I`m kidding.
CATTRALL: No, no.
BEHAR: Now, but you say you hate the term cougar for an older woman? Why do you hate that?
CATTRALL: Well, there`s a connotation of a predator which that doesn`t sit well with me.
BEHAR: What`s the equivalent for a man? You know, all these guys --
CATTRALL: You know, called sugar daddy, it`s kind of sweet.
BEHAR: Sugar daddy.
CATTRALL: This kind of older guy is going to take care. And it`s -- you know?
BEHAR: Yes.
CATTRALL: But this whole notion of a woman in her 50s, you know, the desperation of it, sitting at a bar, you know, at 11:00 at night sort of eyeing some 20-something boy, it`s just ridiculous. I mean, I have found that young men sort of chase after me, which I`m not complaining about, but it`s not what I`m choosing.
BEHAR: It makes it sound like you`re going after them, when you`re really not. You`re sitting there looking like your gorgeous self, and they come on to you.
CATTRALL: Well, I don`t really go to bars by myself. You know, I never did that even when I was in my 20s. I`m a sort of a serial monogamist. I meet someone, I like them, I spend a period of time.
I think the most difficult thing with our jobs is distance, time away from home. I mean, you`re lucky your guy`s at home, you`re here. But I spent basically --
BEHAR: I`m agoraphobic lately, I can`t leave the house.
CATTRALL: Really?
BEHAR: No, I`m not really, I`m just saying that.
CATTRALL: Well, I -- you know, last year, I basically spent about three, four months in New York, the rest of the time I was in England working, bouncing all over the place.
BEHAR: So, do you have a boyfriend right now?
CATTRALL: No, no. I`m single.
BEHAR: So, are you on the market? Are you looking? Do you want another one?
CATTRALL: No, I`m really enjoying being single.
BEHAR: You like it?
CATTRALL: Yes. And I really enjoy living alone and having time to myself, which I do -- which I usually had when I had jobs and then would come home and be in a relationship. But I love to cook, I love to entertain, my home is very open, I enjoy that.
But the thought of a relationship where, you know, now, I`m going to be doing a film in England and then we`re doing "Private lives" in Toronto and then back in New York.
BEHAR: You also did "Who Do You Think You Are?" -- that show with Lisa Kudrow. And they found out that your grandfather was a bigamist.
CATTRALL: Yes. You just gave away the whole show.
BEHAR: That`s OK. She gives away when she came on here.
CATTRALL: No, I actually didn`t do the American version, I did it in Britain two years ago.
BEHAR: Oh.
CATTRALL: And there, it`s a little bit of a different format in the sense that it`s a 60-minute show, 59 minutes, as opposed to a 40-something- minute show. So, they added it and put it together to make it an American version of it.
BEHAR: I see.
CATTRALL: So, I haven`t seen it, but it`s basically the same story, yes.
BEHAR: Did you know your grandfather?
CATTRALL: No, I never did. He disappeared when my mother was 8 in 1938, and he was never heard or seen again. And he destroyed all pictures of him. So, we never even knew what he looked like, and the show found him. What they do is they ask people in the public eye, would you like to be on this program?
BEHAR: Yes.
CATTRALL: And then they take three months and sort of decide whether there is a story within your family.
BEHAR: Yes, if there`s nothing interesting --
CATTRALL: They won`t do it. Exactly.
BEHAR: OK. All right.
CATTRALL: You got to have drama. Drama.
BEHAR: Definitely.
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll be back with a little more from Kim Cattrall. She`s going to talk about beauty secrets now. Yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with Kim Cattrall.
Now, you have this movie "Meet Monica Velour."
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: And you put on 20 pounds. She`s playing, sort of, over the heels stripper or something?
CATTRALL: Well, she was -- actually the character Monica Velour, she was a big porn star in the `70s, late `70s, early `80s.
BEHAR: I see.
CATTRALL: Then thing goes very, very wrong for her. She gets married. She has a child and now, she`s fighting for the custody of her child. The only way that she can make money is to like strip in these ridiculous clubs.
BEHAR: But whey did you have to get fatter for that?
CATTRALL: Because I think the director and writer of the film, Keith Bearden, wanted very much to have her feeling over the hill.
BEHAR: I see.
CATTRALL: You know -- I mean, she couldn`t be completely out of shape or she wouldn`t be able to strip anywhere, but he said to me what do you think about 35 pounds? I said, you know, Keith, I don`t have enough time before we start shooting for 35 but I can definitely do 15, maybe 20. So, I gained 15 before we started shooting. It was fantastic!
BEHAR: I bet it was. What did you eat? Tell me everything you ate.
CATTRALL: Well, you know, the greatest way, if anything`s fried, anything with dairy products in it, pasta is very high on the list. And I love a drink. Buy a drink, you know?
BEHAR: So, how long did it take to you put on the 20?
CATTRALL: It was about a good month.
BEHAR: A month?
CATRALL: A month, yes.
BEHAR: That`s all?
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: And to take off 20 pounds, how long did it take you?
CATTRALL: It was 15 before we started shooting and another 5 because we were shooting in Detroit and there`s a lot of good bars in Detroit and a lot of like heavy food in Detroit.
BEHAR: How did you get it off, Kim?
CATTRALL: Well, I dieted.
BEHAR: What diet?
CATTRALL: I use eat right for your blood type because --
BEHAR: Did that work?
CATTRALL: It did work. It has worked for me numerous times.
BEHAR: Really?
CATTRALL: And just cut out certain things. I`m a good dieter. If I can`t have it at all, that`s the best way for me to diet.
BEHAR: Yes, most people.
CATTRALL: If I can have a little bit of something or 40 grams, I can`t do it. I just -- it drives me insane.
BEHAR: They call that the seafood diet. It`s seafood, you eat it.
CATTRALL: Exactly.
BEHAR: You look great, though.
CATTRALL: Oh, thanks.
BEHAR: Tell the audience some of your beauty secrets. Everyone wants to hear this. Everyone wants to know.
CATTRALL: You know, I`m a big sort of shower person. I don`t really bathe too much. But I basically take those gloves and I --
BEHAR: Exfoliate.
CATTRALL: -- exfoliate every single day.
BEHAR: Your whole body?
CATTRALL: Yes.
BEHAR: How do you do your back? You can`t reach that.
CATTRALL: I reach as far as I can and I have this towel. I go like this.
BEHAR: So, you`re an exfoliator daily.
CATTRALL: Daily.
BEHAR: Blood type diet.
CATTRALL: Blood type diet.
BEHAR: Have you ever considered plastic surgery? Or --
CATTRALL: You know, I think that`s something I`m not there yet.
BEHAR: You don`t need it.
CATTRALL: Not yet. I don`t know. I think when I`m there, I`ll ask that question, but I`m not there yet.
BEHAR: Well, nobody`s getting it anymore. They were all getting Botox and the fillers and stuff. The actual cutting is a nightmare. I wouldn`t do it.
CATTRALL: Yes, I mean, why would you? I mean, you look great.
BHEAR: But I have a couple shots here and there. I admit it.
CATTRALL: Hey, so do I.
BEHAR: OK, that`s good.
CATTRALL: Between friends.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They don`t care.
And -- oh, this I love. That and your ultimate fashion advice is to not wear underwear. Are you wearing -- are you wearing underwear now and is that true?
CATTRALL: Except if it`s Spanx.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Do you really think that?
CATTRALL: You know, I think sometimes. It depends on what you`re wearing, of course.
BEHAR: Because you don`t want the lines.
CATTRALL: No, it`s so terrible.
BEHAR: But the thongs.
CATTRALL: I never felt very comfortable with the thong. You know, it was very popularized by Pat Field on "Sex and the City," in particular. But I always felt something was different.
BEHAR: It`s not comfortable to have that thing there.
CATTRALL: Not completely, no.
BEHAR: It`s like a slingshot.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. You can see Kim Cattrall in "Any Human Heart" on "Masterpiece" theater, Sunday at 9 p.m.
Good night, everybody.
BROOKE ANDERSON, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Hi, there. I`m Brooke Anderson. This is the "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" newsbreak. Here is what`s coming up on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" at the top of the hour. The big Oprah tell-all, David Arquette`s very first interview since leaving rehab. Rosie O`Donnell`s big "Glee" apology over what she said about star Ashley Fink`s weight. My big interview with Ashley today. You don`t want to miss that.
That`s your "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" newsbreak, the most provocative entertainment news show start at this top of the hour here on HLN.
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